| A gathering with PSYCA, Anne Philippi, The New Health Institute; Joe Moore of Psychedelics Today; and Myriam Barthes, Journey Clinical. MC’d by Marissa Feinberg. Tickets here. At a moment when companies are navigating FDA pathways, mental health providers are anticipating more treatment options nationwide, and consciousness is becoming part of a serious public conversation, the people shaping this field from the inside are gathering in the West Village. |
ALS and ketamine therapy are at the center of this conversation with psychiatrist Dr. Michael Alpert and Peter Alberding, who was diagnosed with ALS in late 2023. Alpert is a Boston-area psychiatrist with experience in MDMA-assisted therapy research for PTSD and a private practice that includes ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Alberding shares what it has been like to face a fatal neurodegenerative illness while working with ketamine in a structured clinical setting.
Alberding explains that he was not looking for a casual psychedelic experience. He wanted help facing fear, grief, loss of function, and the reality of death. Over time, ketamine-assisted psychotherapy became a tool for processing those changes more directly than talk therapy alone had allowed.
The episode opens with Alberding’s diagnosis and the emotional shock that followed. He describes ALS in direct terms: a fatal disease that gradually takes away voluntary muscle control, with very limited treatment options. That led him to explore whether ketamine might help with existential angst, fear, anxiety, and the need to face what was coming with more clarity.
Alpert outlines his approach to ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. He uses preparatory sessions, careful informed consent, music, a structured therapeutic setting, and post-session integration. He explains that the work is not just about the drug itself. It also depends on trust, intention, safety, and the environment in which the experience unfolds.
A central theme in the middle of the episode is that ketamine sessions are not predictable. Some were intense and difficult. Others were peaceful, joyful, or simply restful. Alberding says not every session produced a major breakthrough, but even sessions that offered only temporary relief still felt therapeutic.
Key points from the conversation:
The discussion also gets specific about clinical practice. Alpert talks through dose strategy, intramuscular administration, preparation, integration, and how he responds when a patient enters a frightening state. He makes clear that supportive touch must be discussed in advance, consented to, and handled with precision.
In the final section, Alberding explains how ketamine helped him move through several phases of illness: fear of what was coming, the experience of losing bodily function, and then a more direct reckoning with mortality and personal agency. He says he is no longer afraid to die, even though he does not want to die.
He also describes a gap in standard medical care. ALS treatment may address the physical course of disease while leaving psychological and existential suffering under-addressed. This episode points toward a role for ketamine-assisted psychotherapy in serious illness and end-of-life care, while staying clear about the limits of one patient’s experience.
Here, it refers to ketamine-assisted psychotherapy used to help a person with ALS process fear, grief, mortality, and major changes in function.
This episode presents one patient’s experience, not a universal claim. In Alberding’s case, it appears to have helped with fear, acceptance, and emotional processing.
No. Alpert stresses the importance of preparation, therapeutic rapport, music, setting, and follow-up, not just the medicine itself.
Music helped shape mood, offer structure, and support emotional movement during difficult or profound moments in session.
ALS and ketamine therapy in this episode are discussed through one patient’s experience, one clinician’s approach, and a broader question about how medicine responds to fear, suffering, and mortality when cure is no longer possible.
Transcript disclaimer: This transcript was generated by computer software and may contain errors, omissions, or minor inaccuracies. Please refer to the audio recording for the most accurate version of the conversation.
Kyle Buller: [00:00:00] All right. Hello. Welcome everybody to Psychedelics today. Really excited to have Dr. Michael Bert here, and Peter Albertine here. And this is gonna be a really fun, special episode, um, kind of talking about, uh, a patient’s journey, um, with Ketamine assisted psycho psychotherapy, ALS. Um, so I’ll pass this over to you, Michael.
Kyle Buller: Um, for an introduction, if you can introduce yourself to the audience.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Hi everyone. My name is Dr. Michael Alpert. I’m a psychiatrist based in the Boston area. I worked previously on the clinical trials of MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD, and I’m currently in private practice in the Boston area doing a combination of medication management talk therapy and ketamine assisted therapy.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And I’m really looking forward to joining both of you on the podcast today.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, likewise. Thanks for being here. And Peter, we’ll pass it over to you.
Peter Alberding: Well, good [00:01:00] afternoon. I, am Peter Alberding. I live in Boston, or I live in a suburb of Boston. And, uh, I’m 60 years old. In the end of, 2023, I received a diagnosis of ALS.
Kyle Buller: Mm,
Peter Alberding: which, uh, for those who don’t know what ALS is, it’s a neurodegenerative disease, which. Slowly robbed your ability to control voluntary muscle movement and, uh, is a hundred percent fatal. Um, there are limited, very limited treatments available, and, um, as one might imagine that causes a lot of, uh, uh, uh, as Michael has taught me existential angst among other things.
Peter Alberding: And, um, sometime, I don’t know, in March or April or June, something like that, several months into the diagnosis, [00:02:00] I, uh, was interested in pursuing psychedelic therapy to help me address a variety of, uh, you know, emotions and, uh, you know, issues to address around, you know, life and, and, um, and the, you know, the difficult challenge of facing a disease like this and was referred to Michael.
Peter Alberding: Uh, through a, a, a psychiatrist affiliate with MGH. And, um, that’s my brief background.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Well, thanks for being here and thanks for, again, hopefully sharing your story with us today. Sure. Yeah. Um, Michael, I’m curious, you reached out, um, to pitch this idea, so I wonder if you want to give a little bit of background about, um, yeah.
Kyle Buller: This, this episode from your perspective.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Sure. Well, over the course of our work together, Pete has shared pretty consistently the desire [00:03:00] to speak more broadly about his experience with others. And it’s overall felt like it’s been a really positive experience going through this ketamine treatment over the past two years or so, and wanting to tell more people about that, wanting to have some kind of a way of ness giving back and.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I was familiar with the podcast for several years and it seemed like a really great place for both of us to be talking about our experiences working together after having done so now for about two years. Um, so I floated the idea to, uh, Pete, he’d already mentioned that he’d had his own podcast and had been speaking very publicly about having a LS and had talked about what that was like for him, which had me thinking that a podcast might be a good place to do this.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: So thanks Pete for being so open to sharing your experience and Kyle for [00:04:00] interviewing us.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I’m excited for it. Um, so Pete, maybe let’s dig into a little bit of like your story and how you got started with, um, you know, working with Michael. And I’m kind of curious, was this your first introduction to like using psychedelics as like a treatment?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, psychedelic with ketamine is, you know, we can go back and forth about that definition, but
Peter Alberding: Right. I mean, I guess I had certainly never experienced ketamine, uh, in my life. I have, uh, like a lot of people in younger days, uh, you know, on a recreational basis, done, you know, taking mushrooms and, uh, uh, so had some, it wasn’t naive to, uh, sort of the concept of expanding your mind through chemical intervention, uh, if I may say it that way.
Peter Alberding: But, um, you know, this was, ketamine is a lot, I didn’t know what to expect. It is a very different [00:05:00] experience than, uh, say, you know, psilocybin. Um, and so I, I was, uh, you know, like a lot of people I had read Michael Pollan’s book, uh, what, how to, how to Expand Your Mind or I can’t remember the title of it. Is that Right?
Kyle Buller: How to Change Your
Peter Alberding: Mind, how to Change Your Mind? Sorry. And, um, was curious and, uh, you know, did, did some research, contacted a few people and happened to have a connection to, uh, uh, uh, like a chairman emeritus psychiatrist from MGH who introduced me to Michael. And we probably had, uh, I don’t know, five or six talk sessions before ketamine, you know, became a, you know, do we want to pursue this path?
Peter Alberding: I mean, the way, the reason we got in touch, the reason I, uh, took the step was because I was curious to see if ketamine was a good idea, but I didn’t walk in this office and say, let’s do ketamine [00:06:00] for sure. Uh,
Kyle Buller: what was it about ketamine that, I guess, like piqued your interest were, were you reading any studies about it or hearing other people with their treatment?
Peter Alberding: Uh, good question. I, what the, what the primary issue is. I didn’t want to, I mean, I am aware. Uh, know some folks in the Boston area who are kind of underground, uh, you know, trip guides or whatever you want to call ’em. I was not interested in doing this in a nonclinical setting. Um, and so, you know, unfortunately the, you don’t really have an option, right?
Peter Alberding: It’s ketamine or nothing. MDs are not gonna, aren’t able to work with these other substances. So I would, I would’ve been open to, uh, any, you know, MDMA or mushrooms, but that, that wasn’t an option. And after getting educated on ketamine, I said, let’s, you know, I’d like to, I’d like to try it.
Kyle Buller: And I guess when you were thinking [00:07:00] about, um, reaching out to, to do ketamine, was it, what were you kinda looking for?
Kyle Buller: Was it some of that existential angst or were you looking at it from like a different perspective, whether it was like dealing with a little bit of pain or.
Peter Alberding: Um, well, if you think about, so the, the, the diag, you know, a LS is a very slow progressing disease. And so if I divided it into thirds, the first third is really diagnosis and, and just terror, you know, fear, um, not of the unknown, fear of the known.
Peter Alberding: It is very clear what’s gonna happen to somebody. Maybe not the order in which you lose your function, but you know what the end of the road is leads to the same place. And so that first third is really just getting your arms around this is real and there are some really terrible things that are gonna come [00:08:00] down the chute.
Peter Alberding: And, uh, I think it is prudent to try to wrap your arms around those things as pest as one can, uh, before. They hit. Um, and that, you know, I, again, I just decided I didn’t, I wasn’t seeking out ketamine necessarily. I was seeking out, um, whether to pursue ketamine. You know, it started out as a curiosity and enough curiosity that, um, you know, we went and had several sessions, but it was a, uh, you know, it took a little while to sort of get to the point.
Peter Alberding: I think Michael is appropriately, uh, you know, doesn’t want people walking in his office saying, let’s do ketamine. Um, for all, I presume the obvious reasons. And, uh, and I certainly wasn’t in that frame of mind anyway. Um, so it was more, uh, it had nothing to do with physical pain or anything. It was more just [00:09:00] anxiety, fear, terror, what?
Peter Alberding: However you wanna, all of the above.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And Michael, I’m curious, like what’s your approach to ketamine assisted psychotherapy? There’s so many different kind of like schools of thoughts, different routes of administration, like how do you approach this work?
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Well, thinking of it on the kind of higher level like that, I’ve been working with ketamine in a way that’s similar to the way that I worked with MDMA as part of the clinical research studies for PTSD.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: So as Peter was saying, I have several preparatory sessions with people as really a chance for us to get to know each other for the people I’m working with, to become familiar with me, to ask the questions they have about ketamine and for them to have a chance to really share their life story and talk about what they’re hoping to be getting out of it.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And from my perspective, I want to explain [00:10:00] as much as I can about what are some of the. Um, range of experiences that people can be having with ketamine. Uh, and also really be sure that people are making as informed a decision as possible. And ideally to even have the chance to test out what it’s like being in my office in to some degree of vulnerable space.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: For some people they might even put on eye shades and, uh, wear headphones and listen to a piece of music during one of one or several of the preparatory sessions just to get a sense of what that environment’s like. Um, so I’ll start off with a couple of prep sessions. The actual ketamine sessions themselves.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I think about them usually in roughly thirds where they’re about three hours long each and ballpark. That first third of the session is what I think of as kind of like a preparatory psychotherapy time where we’ll [00:11:00] talk maybe about what’s coming up for the. Person in the room, what their intentions are, how they’re feeling, how I can help facilitate, uh, the, we transition over to actually using the ketamine, which people might be inside.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: For ballpark, I usually allow about an hour, but some people can be inside for much longer, some a little bit shorter. And then the last part of the session is really a chance for people to begin integrating and processing the experience however they see fit. For some people it might involve using art supplies.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: For many people, it involves us having some time to talk. Uh, some people want to have some period for silence or contemplation or even listening to music. So I really try and follow people’s process and track them where they’re at in the moment. And in terms of how I administer it, I mostly work with intramuscular injection.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I usually, for you prescribers out there typically start ballpark around [00:12:00] 0.5 m per kg, which for me feels like a. Enough of a dose that people are able to get kind of a sense of what the medicine can do for them. For many people that really feels like it’s a sufficient dose. Um, and we can always adjust up or down in future sessions.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And I try and frame the first one as in introduction to the medicine and what its effects are like physically and psychologically for you. And thinking of this as part of a multi-session process of us all just figuring out what’s going to be the optimal, not only dosing, but the psychological prep and the, uh, environmental setting that we can be creating.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: In between the ketamine sessions, particularly at the beginning, I really encourage people to have at least a couple of non ketamine follow-ups where we can talk about what that experience was like. And for people like Pete, who I’ve been working with for some period of time, who [00:13:00] also are getting a fair amount of support in other areas in their life, we might eventually get to a cadence where we are just meeting on, say, uh, once every several weeks kind of basis just for the Ketamine sessions.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And that’s kind of where, uh, Pete and I are at right now. Having worked together now for two years and given all the other things that are going on. And I’d say the approach that I take with it is also really paying a fair amount of attention to this setting, meaning that I am. Curating playlists. I’ve got some singing bowls and wind times in my office that I can use and I’ll even work in essential oils, try and pay a fair amount of attention to the environment in a ways that you’re probably seeing in things like the, uh, maps manual or other, um, psychedelic research protocols.
Kyle Buller: Awesome. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, I love that people are like starting to incorporate [00:14:00] a little bit more singing bolds if they have that background, like the vibration of that probably feels different. And PE you could probably speak to that. Like what is that like to like have that live music element?
Peter Alberding: Uh, you know, the, I knew it was coming the first session. I will say that as I became. You know, I sort of knew how, how things were gonna roll. Uh, it was almost, uh, it, it had a little Pavlovian effect I think in the sense of, you know, you get those, uh, overtones going and it just, I, I, it just sort of sets a mood of, um, uh, I don’t know, serenity or calmness.
Peter Alberding: Uh, and, and like a vibration of energy. I don’t want to sound all, you know, foofy about it, but it’s, it’s, it, it does something. It’s hard to describe what it does, but, um, it’s helpful.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: [00:15:00] Yeah, I really like using the singing bowls in particular, right at the beginning, shortly after I’ve given the injection. I also will say sometimes work with lozenges, but mostly with the injection and the injection.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: The intramuscular injection sets in pretty quickly. So after I’ve gotten that taken care of, then I’ll do the singing bowl for a couple of minutes, multi medicine, starting to kick it, and then it’ll start with the playlist.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that’s really nice. I used to do like a little repetitive drumming with folks, um, as they, because I would work with lozenges, um, and almost like kind of get somebody in that like relaxed trance state with the drumming beforehand, um, while they’re holding it for like 10, 15 minutes.
Kyle Buller: Right. It’s like just, you know. Um, Pete, I’m kind of curious to like, dive into your experiences a little bit, like Yeah. What were your first couple, uh, academy experiences like?
Peter Alberding: W Yeah, so the, I, you know, I was, uh, in, in terms of [00:16:00] the, you know, the setting intentions, you know, I, we sort of were ready to go and I came in for the first session and I, I, I think I said something to the effect of, I, I don’t really have any intentions.
Peter Alberding: I’m not sure what to expect, and I’m just an open book, and I, I’m just gonna let my brain go where it goes. Um, and I had no idea what the intensity of what was coming my way. Um, so the first session was, was super intense and very positive. And I, I, if I remember the first one correctly in the sequence here, I was very, I was exploring my body basically.
Peter Alberding: I was my first symptom. And when Michael and I first met, it was basically, um. It pretty significant weakness in my left hand, and the rest of me was like, you would, if you, you know, if you were sitting with me, you wouldn’t know I had, there’s anything wrong with me. Um, so it was, [00:17:00] it was relatively mild, but I spent a lot of time sort of like holding my left hand in my right hand and exploring my hand in some detail, and then my forearm and worked up to my shoulder.
Peter Alberding: And, um, I, I, I sort of, uh, would say I went through the seven stages of grief, you know, in, in one session, you know, which is not exactly true, but it’s pretty close. It was, yeah, this is, this isn’t, you really have this disease, um, and, you know, deal with it kind of thing. Uh, was the first session, I think this, and it was so intense that I, after the first session, I wasn’t sure if I was gonna do a second session.
Peter Alberding: Um, and, uh, I thought about it a little bit and I said, well, let’s, let’s, let’s get one on the schedule. And you know, Michael and I talked about it and, um, you know, [00:18:00] let’s assume we’re gonna do it. And the second one I came back for, I, you know, I was a little, I was nervous ’cause it was very uncomfortable, uh, seeding control of, you know, I, I say to people, you, for me, I, I turn into an amoeba, you know, you have, you lose control of, uh, you know, of, of yourself.
Peter Alberding: You’re totally inside your own brain. And, um, you know, that’s a, uh, it’s a little bit unsettling. And the, the second time we, the second session we had, I knew it was coming. And so that, that got me a little nervous. Um, and I think the third session I had, uh. Uh, things went south on me. I, I got, it was, uh, a little scary.
Peter Alberding: Um, and, and, uh, not for very long, but maybe a third of it or something, or a fourth of the session was, uh, I was in a dark place and wanted to get out of it. [00:19:00] Um, and, you know, for a variety of reasons, a, that’s a, a good reason to be doing this with a professional. Um, you know, after the first session, I remember saying to Michael, I can’t imagine anybody does this, does ketamine recreationally, I got, just seems insane to me.
Peter Alberding: But, uh, you know, obviously people do. So what do I know? But, um, it, uh, it is helpful to have a professional ’cause Michael sort of pulled me outta the tailspin. Um. Two ways. One, by, by, you know, soothing me or, uh, getting me, uh, redirecting me a little bit and, and two, um, with music. And I’m sure we’ll spend some time talking about the importance of music and the role that, uh, music plays in guiding either guiding or sort of being a leading, uh, indicator of where, where you may want to go and can, [00:20:00] uh, it just plays a big role.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, we should definitely get into to the music part. Um, Michael, I’m kind of curious, like, you know, when you do see somebody kind of like tailspin as Peter’s describing, like what is, like, how do you support somebody through that when you see somebody like really in it.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: That is a great question. Well, something I’ll add before answering that one though was I wanted to mention in terms of uh, Pete’s second session, how different that was from the first one.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And I remember you coming out of that session feeling like it was incredibly peaceful, blissful, having, being at this state of not feeling stressed and like everything happening with your body was biology and chemistry and just being amazed at the miracle of life. And it’s just amazing. Yeah. It’s just amazing just what [00:21:00] a different head space it was and it really surprised me and hammered home for me, this whole beginner’s mindset of no matter how many people I work with, with ketamine, no matter how many times we work together, even with the same dose, how every one of these experiences is just going to be different and there’s just unique.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: No way to predict it from what, at least from what I can tell. Um, but in terms of having these kinds of, uh, more difficult experiences, I think in that third session, I remember you were feeling like you were in a dark place, kind of on the edge of an abyss almost. And so I put out my hand. Mm-hmm. And, uh, Peter and I had had conversations about the role of supportive and therapeutic touch.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I’m not a trained body worker, but I had offered as long as we both consented to it before and had clear signals around the use of touch, um, to do something like hold his hand or put a hand [00:22:00] on his shoulder. Um, so I offered for him to hold my hand and when he was. In that kind of dark space, that sort of abyss was just taking my hand and moving it around.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And there was something I think to that, that seemed to be kind of grounding in the moment. And it seemed like it was able to kind of calm things down a little bit. Uh, the music that we were listening to, I think it was this kind of amorphous sound suite of a couple of different sound bath instruments, but it wasn’t anything particularly melodic or that had any kind of direction.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And so then we shifted gears on that and I think it ended up helping out with some of those, uh, some of those difficulties. So yeah, I think for me, to the extent that someone’s able to be engaging verbally with expressing themselves asking for something, um, you know, I just try and get a sense of where they’re at.[00:23:00]
Michael Alpert, M.D.: If we’ve talked about some things that might be helpful in terms of grounding them. In those moments, we might try doing something like that. Like in this case, you know, talking about just holding a hand. Um, and then if possible, I’ve noticed, yeah, shifts in the music, just doing some kind of shift in the environment whenever someone’s feeling like they’re in a place that’s really tough or they’re feeling really stuck, can be helpful.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And something that we’ve talked about is that just because someone’s in a place that might be bringing up a lot of difficult emotions or, um. Difficult memories. It’s not necessarily something to automatically move away from. There’s not necessarily quite as much time for the dialogue around that. With Academy Session, I found as there is with MDMA where someone’s inside, you know, in that for eight hours and we can have some pretty extensive discussions about what’s going to be helpful, you know, and going in and out of [00:24:00] the experience.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, and so I do tend to really go with, um, the side of maybe having a little bit less dialogue around it that I might with a psychedelic that lasted longer. And if someone’s saying that they really want for there to be a shift, and they’ve sat with that, uh, really kind of responding to that as much as I can.
Peter Alberding: And, and I, I think I’m sure that it’s individual for me, like putting fear on top of existing fear was not helpful for me. Right. And yeah. Um, and I, and I think the, uh, it’s not that I, I sort of recall the music. It wasn’t like the music was atonal, but it, there wasn’t a structure to it and the lack of structure, you know, I don’t think the music caused that, but it didn’t help.
Peter Alberding: And the change of music and to say Michael offered his hand, we had discussed [00:25:00] ahead of time, like, Hey, is it, you know, is it okay if I touch it? Like, if you reach your handout, that’ll be a good signal. So, I mean. I was hanging on for dear life and my hand, my hand went out pretty aggressively. Like, uh, save me kind of thing.
Peter Alberding: Um, uh, and, and that, that was helpful.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. And I wonder if you could like, chat a little bit more about like, how that was helpful because, you know, there’s a lot of conversation lately in the psychedelic, uh, world about touch, um, and how sometimes it can be a little controversial, especially with folks that don’t have training, but also hearing from your experience like that was really beneficial and it sounded like that really helped you to get out of a, a pretty dark place in, in a sense.
Kyle Buller: So I wonder if you could like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk a little bit about that experience of like maybe asking for a handheld,
Peter Alberding: I mean, I, I, there’s gotta be an enormous amount of trust between clinician and patient, first of all. Um, ’cause I can imagine that, uh, it’s, you know, the, the [00:26:00] patient is in a very vulnerable situation.
Peter Alberding: Um, the, uh. You know, I think we, there were a few occasions where I needed some, some handholding. I mean literally some handholding. And, uh, I, I think it was, uh, you’re not alone. Um, like it was just knowing I’ve got somebody there with me, uh, in that, in that moment and, uh, is, is gonna, you know, hold onto me so to speak.
Peter Alberding: I mean, it’s, it’s almost metaphorical in what, I mean, you are physically holding hands and, and I remember doing a lot of like mo circular movements and Michael would just sort of go with me. Uh, yeah, yeah. A lot of that. Um, so it was reassurance. It was in the combination of, okay, there’s some holding, Michael’s obviously multitasking ’cause he’s working on changing up the, you know, the mojo with the, with the music.
Peter Alberding: Um. [00:27:00] And so I, you know, the other thing about ketamine from my experience is you have no sense of time. And so I can’t tell you if I was in that sort of state of anxiety or fear for two minutes or 15 minutes. I like, it felt like a long time. My guess is it probably wasn’t.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. And one other thing I’d wanna add, as, uh, Pete’s talking about how there needs to be this certain degree of trust between client and therapist and, uh, Kyle, you’re bringing up these issues of therapeutic touch. It brings up the issue of, well, what happens if I’m working with someone who does not want any kind of therapeutic touch or does not consent to that as we’re going into the session and what are ways that I’m able to help facilitate if someone were to be.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Wanting to have [00:28:00] some kind of connection with another person while they’re going through a psychedelic experience. And I’ve had this situation come up of working with people who do not want to have any kind of, um, non-medically necessary touch. I always frame it as thinking of touch in a couple of different categories.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: You have the, um, the kind of touch of me checking vital signs or me keeping someone from falling while they’re walking, that I consider as one category, which is separate from something like supportive touch, uh, holding someone’s hand or therapeutic touch of say, you know, doing body work if I were a, uh, trained body worker.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, but in situations where you have someone saying that they. Do not want supportive touch. What I’ve done is during some of the prep sessions, we might, um, come up with ways that they’re able to feel the presence of another person, but without physical contact. And that can mean things like, um, putting say a pillow on [00:29:00] their stomach and then, uh, kind of pressing down with that or else, uh, using say a tuning fork on, uh, their forehead.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, or you know, even some people will have like a cord or a rope that they might pull on, or like a towel they might pull on one end and I pull on the other. Uh, there’s all kinds of ways of feeling like another person is there and recognizing the presence of another person even without there, uh, being any kind of physical contact.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And so I think there’s lots of ways that people can have. Those needs met while also respecting any kind of, uh, protectors or boundaries that they, um, for whatever reason, uh, make clear during the, uh, preparatory sessions.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Really great points there. Thank you. Um, and maybe forgot to mention this before we hit the record button, but I would love Yeah, feel free to, like, also, [00:30:00] I think you guys know each other really well, so it’d also I think, be interesting to hear you guys like Yeah. If there’s questions or comments that come up, um, just even kind of like riff off each other a little bit there.
Peter Alberding: Well, uh, so I, one thing that was on my mind is sort of Michael in the intro said, you know, to thanking me for being willing to do this and try to help people, the impetus for that was that I was very open, you know, I am a patient at, uh. Heal center at at Mass General, which is a world renowned, uh, multidisciplinary, a LS clinic.
Peter Alberding: And my doctor is a very well known, like internationally well known. These people are excellent. It’s top shelf, um, care. And I was very open with them about the ketamine therapy that I was doing as a, this has been enormously helpful to me and uh, you know, you should know that I think that it would be helpful for others.[00:31:00]
Peter Alberding: And it was interesting that they, uh, acknowledge what I was saying and maybe engage for a minute, but I could sort of tell they just didn’t wanna go there ’cause they didn’t. It’s just outta their universe of things they think about. And that, that’s what kind of prompted me thinking, you know, I’m gonna, uh, I’m gonna evangelize a little bit.
Peter Alberding: I, I ke I don’t think ketamine is appropriate for everybody who has some trauma that they’re dealing with, but I think it could be helpful to a lot of people, and it surprises me how little, um, sort of mental health, uh, discussion there is in an a LS clinic like that. Uh, it’s, it’s, you know, sort of medical and, uh, uh, you know, assessing the rate of disease and talking about clinical trials and, and all that.
Peter Alberding: But basically there was no discussion of, you know, psychiatric treatment or mental health treatment. And, [00:32:00] you know, just in general, nevermind, um. You know, psychedelic treatment. And so that just got me thinking like, wow, maybe more people, this just needs to get out there. I think it needs to be better.
Peter Alberding: Understood. I think there’s a stigma associated with, you know, just the word ketamine. Um, among other things,
Kyle Buller: I think you kind of highlight that like mind body split, you know, which, you know, makes sense. You know, I think medicine does things really well in that degree of like, you know, really focusing on like, how do we treat the disease, right?
Kyle Buller: But like, maybe they’re missing the whole psychological psychiatric portion of it, which is also having a big impact on you as well. Um, and it’s like, yeah, how do we bridge that gap a little bit more? And, um, yeah. I’m kind of curious, like what has been your jour, your healing journey there with, um, with ketamine more from that psychological, um, perspective that you would want doctors and therapists to, to know [00:33:00] about?
Peter Alberding: Yeah. Uh, so I would say that the. So I’m, I’m, uh, a little beyond two years from diagnosis and two years and four or five months from symptom onset. The typical life expectancy of a somebody diagnosed with a LS is two to four years, and I’m pretty confident I’m will be right in the middle of that, uh, bell curve, uh, would be my guess.
Peter Alberding: And there are sort of three phases in my mind. Phase one is just the, uh, the fear of what’s coming. And I suppose you could just stick your head in the sand and say, I don’t wanna know anything about this disease, and just let things come. That’s not my approach. And, um, so I’m pretty, uh, clear-eyed, have been pretty clear-eyed about what’s coming.
Peter Alberding: So the first third is just the angst and fear of what’s going to happen. The second phase is the things that we’re, you were afraid of happening. [00:34:00] Are now happening. And so when Michael and I first met, I had left hand weakness since then, my left hand is non-functional. My right hand is maybe 30%. Like I can move my thumb.
Peter Alberding: Um, I spend a lot of time in a wheelchair. I could still shuffle along with a rollator. I have a feeding tube. Uh, I need non-invasive breathing support. Um, my voice is, you know, weakened considerably. So it, uh, but that’s pretty, you know, a lot of things have happened in a relatively short time. And so the phase two is really the, uh, the, the things you’ve been afraid of are now happening.
Peter Alberding: And, uh, you have to get comfortable with them somehow. And now I’m in phase three, which is sort of the, there’s no more, there’s no more intervention. There’s no more, there’s nothing more that I am going to do. Uh. Treatment [00:35:00] wise, I participated in a clinical study, sort of the, the, the G tube, the feeding tube was the last thing, uh, last step.
Peter Alberding: I was, I am willing to take from an intervention standpoint. So now it’s, you know, I continue to decline, but it’s more getting comfortable with, you know, my life is gonna end. And, uh, I can’t tell you when I, I could narrow it down pretty closely. Uh, and that I wanna have some agency over how that happens.
Peter Alberding: And in each phase, ketamine has helped me, um, address head on in, in ways that I don’t think would, uh, be able to do with just talk therapy. I mean, it’s just, it’s your, your, your mind. It’s just amazing to me what a chemical can do. To, uh, get your brain [00:36:00] to, you know, see things just radically differently and come to grips with them.
Peter Alberding: So I, I sort of described to people who are curious, you know, obviously not clinical folks, but you know, whatever friends or people that are wanna hear about the experiences, um, that you, you don’t really know. Uh, I just lost my train of thought. You don’t know where your mind is gonna, is gonna go. Um, oh, I remember where I was going.
Peter Alberding: Is that the, I think you, you get a lot done with talk therapy. Um, I think there are lots of things that you, it would take years and years and years and maybe you’d get to them and talk therapy and, and adding ketamine to the mix accelerates the, the process. It felt that way for me, um, of. Because I don’t have a lot of time to, yeah.
Peter Alberding: I don’t have 10 years to sort these things out, first of all. Um, but it just, it, uh, it accelerates the timeline, uh, [00:37:00] or it accelerated my timeline of come into grips with, you know, very difficult reality.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Thank you for being so open and honest about that. And as you’re sharing that it could like kind of just like put myself in and say like, what would I feel if I was going through something like that?
Kyle Buller: And kind of feel a little bit of that heaviness. And it just gets me thinking around just like drug policy of like having, you know, medicines available. I mean, we’re talking about ketamine at least schedule three, but thinking about like psilocybin and some of these other molecules of like just saying no, like you can’t have access to that.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. When you know people are actually suffering and, and going through really intense things where it could be really helpful to deal with a lot of the emotional and psychological components of, of a disease like this. Like it’s gotta be terrifying.
Peter Alberding: Well yeah, and this is off topic, but um, you know, medical assistance and dying is another thing that’s nuts that, I mean, in [00:38:00] Massachusetts.
Peter Alberding: There is no medical assistance in dying and, and denying somebody agency who is going to die, um, strikes me as, uh, backwards. But that’s a conversation for, in a different forum. Um.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I, I think just being able to have agency over our own, our own life is, is so important.
Peter Alberding: Yeah.
Kyle Buller: I forget what they ended up doing with that whole right of Right to Try act that got passed, which gave potential access to Schedule two substances.
Kyle Buller: I believe that were still going through clinical trial for folks with like terminal illness. So theoretically, like, you know, you could get access with like a doctor’s note for psilocybin, but again, I forget what happened to that bill. But, you know, I think it, it should totally be, you know, available for folks.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I mean, this is something that really came up with the MDMA clinical trials. There was technically an expanded access program that was supposed to, [00:39:00] um, make. MDMA assisted psychotherapy available to people with PTSD, prior to FDA approval, but only, I think there was only something like 50 spots made available in that, which is a drop in the bucket.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: So I think it really speaks to, uh, not just having on paper these policies like right to try or expanded access, but actually having, uh, policies that allow for numbers that are large enough and, um, processes that are straightforward enough that people can actually access these treatments, um,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: under a limited circumstances. And especially for things that are, uh, pretty far along in clinical trials, even if they’re currently, uh, schedule one substances.
Kyle Buller: Peter, I’m, I’m kind of curious, um, if you’re open to exploring like your relationship to death, um, and like, you know, it’s pretty interesting that. [00:40:00] Did like a comparative analysis number of years ago, comparing like a lot of the substances to like, near death experiences. And I always thought psilocybin or DMT or Fami, EEO would be up there, but it’s actually Ketamine that ranked the highest.
Kyle Buller: Um, and I I’m curious if that has helped like your, your death anxiety or your relationship to death of like, going through this treatment?
Peter Alberding: Not, yeah. I, I would say it’s not only has it helped, uh, it’s, I am not afraid to die, um, which is a bold thing for me to say. I’ve, I guess probably a lot of people have a fear of death.
Peter Alberding: I, I have always had a fear of death, you know, since I was an adult for no particular reason. Just, uh, um, well, and there was, there was actually one session in particular where I was, uh, in a. Like in a poster bed lying down. I, I was off kilter. It wasn’t like, uh, flat on the ground, but it was, uh, I was in a weird position and there were, [00:41:00] I was in a dark room with some lighting, um, dim lighting, and there were sil silhouettes around the bed.
Peter Alberding: And the, the silhouettes were, you know, family and loved ones and close friends. None of the silhouettes were specific people, but that’s who the silhouettes represented. And I was dying. I, this was literally, I, I was at home and it was, you know, it was the end of my life and I was dying in bed and I remember kind of laughing in a joyous way and like blurting out.
Peter Alberding: I’m sure Michael has this in his notes, blurting out, this is great and, and this is how I wanna die. And, and it was pleasant. And ever since that experience, uh, um, you know, I, I don’t wanna die. Uh, I don’t wanna accelerate my demise. I have some lines in the sand that [00:42:00] will lead me to the conclusion that the quality of my life is no longer, uh, sufficient to continue with it.
Peter Alberding: Um, and that, that, uh, I mean, there were a bunch of experiences that led to that. I, you know, I don’t think I would’ve gotten to that without the prior experiences. Um, is, is my sense. I, you know, who knows. But that, that they, they kind of, they built the sessions of built on each other, um, for the most part.
Peter Alberding: And, and, uh, that one kind of got me over the. I, you know, over the hump or I, I don’t know how to describe it just got me to a point of, okay, this is gonna happen and I, you know, there’s either something pleasant on the other side or there isn’t. Um, and I’m gonna find out and, uh, you know, it is what it [00:43:00] is, you know, for lack of a better way to phrase it.
Peter Alberding: And, um, I’m, I’m good with it, which I, you know, I think if you try to put yourself in the position of thinking about having a diagnosis like a LS
Peter Alberding: I’m, anybody who just sort of does the hypothetical, what was the, what if this was me? Uh, uh, you’d say I, um, I’d be scared. I, you know, I don’t know what I would do, but I certainly fear would be one, a big one. And, uh, I can confirm that that is, that is certainly part of the process. And then it’s like, well, what do you, okay, now, you know, now what?
Peter Alberding: Um, ’cause sitting around being afraid every day actually doesn’t move the ball forward in terms of addressing these things. And that’s, that’s sort of the process I went through. Michael, you were about to say something and I kept
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah, I was, I was just thinking as you were talking about this, about, uh, well first of all, that [00:44:00] session in particular, how it was almost like this way of experiencing, at least from my perspective, it seemed like this way of experiencing this really feared thing, your, your death, but in a way that actually felt so supported and joyful and almost happy and, um.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Something that came up in that session that’s come up in a couple of others is just all of the, uh, people in your life who care about you, who love you, who you feel so close with, and just feeling like they were really present with you, um, in that moment. Um, and then just being able to have this experience of this really feared thing, but in a way that actually felt almost blissful or happy and really connected with other people.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: It’s almost it, from my perspective, it seemed like being able to imagine dying in a radically different way than you had been almost, um, was kind of my read for [00:45:00] that. Um, and you know, just how in so many other sessions, kind of to what you’re talking about, each one’s built on each other and on the others, and, um, each one’s been a unique experience, but how.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: At each stage of this disease’s progression, it’s like those experiences are tapping into some of these fears. Like there’s been, there were some earlier sessions, um, where it was like your head was still there and then your body’s just kind of melting in and that, you know, the idea of the body melting away, especially just, you know, given how important your body’s been to you for, you know, so much of your life, you know, sports, music, it’s, everything has just involved.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: It. Just having this experience of the body melting away and having that actually be something that you felt pretty good about and pretty pleasant about how that was
Peter Alberding: almost mirrored well, and that was, that was in the [00:46:00] context of me. Thinking a lot about, you know, quality of life issues and kind of,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: yeah,
Peter Alberding: what’s, what, you know, how far can you go, kind of thing.
Peter Alberding: And I had a, um, a guy I was pretty good friends with who, who had a LS and passed away a year ago November, who chose to, he, he lived for about seven years, but by, you know, a little bit, very similar progression as mine. Uh, both where it started and the rate at which it got worse. And it was right around year three and a half or so, year four, where he was, IM like immobilized.
Peter Alberding: He had no function other than he could move his eyes and, you know, type with his eyeballs. And he got me thinking about, and this guy was full of joy, loved, you know, wanted to be alive, you know, under all circumstances. And he got me [00:47:00] thinking about the possibility of, you know, continuing for as long as you can.
Peter Alberding: And in that context, I had this session where, I mean, I describe it as if you see like a time lapse of a, of a, you know, an animal or a, you know, body decomposing into the earth. Um, not in a morbid way, just in a biological way. And I, my body decomposed in the earth and all that was above ground was my head.
Peter Alberding: And I remember laughing and saying, wow, you know, you can live a productive life with a functioning brain. Um, now my thinking on that has subsequently evolved. ’cause that’s, that is not a path that I would choose, that, I won’t choose that it’s, but those are obviously individual decisions. It was like, that was fascinating.
Peter Alberding: And I never in a million years, would that have been something that popped through, you know, went through my [00:48:00] brain that I experienced, you know, inside my brain with the absence, you know, in the absence of, you know, medical, uh, assistance. And it was, it was, you know, Michael, how many sessions have I done?
Peter Alberding: I’m not sure. 12 or 14 maybe. You know, I was, you may not know off the top of your head. It’s not, it’s a lot. I, you know, you, you’ve done,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: you’ve done a fair amount ball, I’d say ballpark. About a dozen,
Peter Alberding: yeah. Or so at this point. So that, that’s would be my guess. So let’s, let’s say it’s a dozen, I would say seven or eight have been, you know, sort of profound experiences and, uh, you know, four or so, were just.
Peter Alberding: Like, you know, no magic happened. I, I, you know, a lot of, uh, interesting stuff happened, but I didn’t really walk away with any insights or, [00:49:00] you know, that I, that, you know, we’re lasting. And to me that was okay. ’cause I, I remember, you know, every time we have a session, Michael and I have a conversation, should we keep doing this?
Peter Alberding: And, um, there might have been two in a row where there’s sort of, nothing profound happened. And I said, look, honestly, the, if I just do ketamine and it’s just escapism, and I, I spend a couple hours not thinking, you know, not even thinking about the, my condition, um, that’s therapeutic in and of itself. And, uh, and so, you know, not, I just, it’s, my point is not every session is, uh.
Peter Alberding: You know, God shows up and has a conversation with you. You know, I mean, it’s, they’re just not every time, you just don’t have a profound experience every time. But I had a lot of profound experiences.
Kyle Buller: I think that’s an important reminder even for folks that like always [00:50:00] wanna focus on like the mystical or big experiences.
Kyle Buller: I was trying to create a presentation a while ago for a conference when the mystical takes a vacation. Um, and it’s just like, you know, as you’re saying, like sometimes that rest is just as important just to tune out, to not think about what’s going on, right? Like when your life might just be like overridden by fear and anxiety to just get that space to finally rest is therapeutic.
Kyle Buller: So I really appreciate you kind of like highlighting that. ’cause I think when we talk about psychedelics, people are always want like, the really big experiences and, and that’s where, you know, a lot of the, the nuggets are, which to some degree is true, right? But I think there’s also the golden nuggets there when you’re able to just rest and,
Peter Alberding: yeah, and I think I went into, I’ve gone into every session, you know, sort of with no expectations of what’s gonna happen.
Peter Alberding: Michael and I talk about. You know, I, we will have conversations about what’s on my mind, but what’s on my mind is not necessarily, [00:51:00] not necessarily gonna have anything to do with what happens. Uh, you know, when the ketamine hits my brain, sometimes it does. Plenty of times it doesn’t.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. And I’m just thinking as you’re talking about, uh, having a co a couple of these sessions that just really felt like a way of taking a break from everything else that’s going on and the value of those.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: You know, that’s something that I really try and take into a lot of the psychedelic work that I’ve been doing, uh, with, certainly with Ketamine, and also to an extent with some of the MDMA studies I was working on, um, where sure, there’s a ton of value that people can get out of these big mystical experiences coming face-to-face with death, all or some higher beings.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: There’s also a ton. That I think we really need to value in just having a chance for pure appreciation of beauty, escape, [00:52:00] joy, relaxation, all these qualities that can really come up. And the way that’s really influenced my work in the way I’ve approached it, um, since I started working with psychedelics is trying to take the music a little bit less self seriously than I had.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And you know, I, Pete and I have talked a fair bit about the music that he’s listened to, the stuff that he likes. You know, I think there’s a lot of principles that I have tried to keep in mind when creating playlists, um, especially with someone who’s new to psychedelics, really trying to avoid lyrics in any languages that someone might understand, uh, curating a certain arc, um, what have you with that.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And then there’s also really a time and plays for throwing in a song that. I think just might be really fun to listen to, uh, both for me and for, uh, the person who’s, uh, having the session. And I think some of the best moments in the Ketamine work that Pete and I have done together have [00:53:00] been when I’ve just put on like a Grateful Dead or Beatles song.
Peter Alberding: Yeah. I mean the, the the, um, uh, is it here, there and everywhere? Is that the Beatles song that Yeah. So there was one session where he opened. Yeah. Yeah. That and across the
Michael Alpert, M.D.: universe. Yeah.
Peter Alberding: And like he, Michael is a, is a, I I’ve come out of, uh, ketamine, uh, you know, journey a couple times that, dude, you are brilliant.
Peter Alberding: ’cause he’s, he’s throw, he’s either thrown a curve ball that was perfect. And I, I think a fair amount of time, it’s an audible, it’s not like he’s actively. Uh, making some choices. Uh, uh, most of the time it’s a set playlist, but not always. I, it is my sense and, and the, like that Beatles tone that it’s, that we started with because he, he’ll, we’ll talk about, you know, what, what’s, what kind of mode do you wanna be in today?
Peter Alberding: And I’m pretty consistent with [00:54:00] pleasant and relaxed and happy, you know, upbeat and, um, you know, starting a session with that song. Just, just set the, set the tone. I think it’s helpful that we share a similar interest in music at at least you, you understand what, you know, what I enjoy and the, you know, the types of instruments I prefer to hear.
Peter Alberding: And I’m gonna go out on a limb and say, you’re pretty good at that, among people that have different musical interests. And it is a, a, uh, I don’t wanna put a percentage on it, but like. The musical, the music aspect of a session is of significant importance, um, in how, uh, the experience is in any, in any given session.
Peter Alberding: I mean, um, some of those sessions where it was just, uh, well, you mentioned one earlier. I just, [00:55:00] I I spent the whole session amazed at the un unlikeliness of us even being on the planet, right? You can think back and say, well, you know, 10 generations ago somebody didn’t die of the bubonic plague, which, you know, and, and here we are, I mean, just the amaz amazement of human life, which, you know, what could sound like, you know, some guy who smokes some pot and is, you know, pontificating.
Peter Alberding: But it, it was powerful. And the, you know, just the spending some time contemplating the universe. Um,
Peter Alberding: may sound silly to some, but when you’re facing some, what I’m facing for me, uh, is not so silly. Um, so I, you know, each person’s individual, but things that might sound a little [00:56:00] esoteric or out there when you’re talking about, you know, uh, the end of life, um, has a little broader, uh, applicability.
Kyle Buller: That appreciation, right.
Peter Alberding: Yeah.
Kyle Buller: It’s just like,
Peter Alberding: because I, I’ve been focusing on, I’m sorry to interrupt the
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Peter Alberding: And my wife and I have talked a lot about this, and we are really focused on instead of the sadness associated with my demise, which obviously exists and, and there’s, there’s plenty of that, but let’s focus on. The joy of the life we have and our experiences and you know, we have three adult children who are doing great and what we’ve created, and it is a heck of a lot better and healthier to focus on those positives, to get in the right mindset, to be accepting of what’s coming.
Kyle Buller: Do you think you would be able, [00:57:00] oh, sorry. You can go Michael. I was gonna say, do you think you, you would be able to appreciate those small little moments without like, you know, working with Michael and doing therapy and ketamine? Or do you feel like that fear and anxiety would continue to be debilitating in a way?
Kyle Buller: I,
Peter Alberding: I personally, I think it, you know, debilitating might be overstating it. I wasn’t, the fear and anxiety that I had was not debilitating. I was working in just, you know, sort of stuffing it in a, stuffing that stuff in a file cabinet. Um, reasonably well. I, I wouldn’t say I’m a particularly introspective person in my life, and I was highly confident that if I didn’t go into that file cabinet and start dealing with it, uh, it was gonna come back and bite me in the ass at some point.
Peter Alberding: Uh, and I thought I was prudent to try to avoid that, um, because I, I just think it’s hard to, it would be very difficult to be facing the end of your life and not [00:58:00] having processed of, you know, all of these issues.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. I’m just thinking about how, and some of the, especially some of the earlier sessions, you know, you’ve talked about really feeling a need to, um, almost kind of hold, hold it together, put on a brave face and kind of get through, um, and kind of really be strong as you’re facing this and almost wanting to do that for other people and.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah, it’s really felt, at least from my end, like it’s been a value experience getting to, uh, talk about all of the range of things that are coming up for you. Um, the gratitude, the acceptance, and also some of the things I feel more, uh, vulnerable. Um,
Peter Alberding: and I, you know, I realized one of the things I realized a little early on was even if I want to be, woe is me or mad at the world or whatever, you [00:59:00] know, I’ve got lots of people close to me and they’re gonna need some leadership from the person who’s being right.
Peter Alberding: If I’m walking around with a dark cloud over my head all the time, um, you know, that’s not only is that not that good for me, but it’s really not helpful for others. And so I’ve, I’ve, part of my style is there’s a fair amount of morbid humor that, um, comes outta my mouth from time to time, which, uh. Uh, it’s, you know, part of my way of dealing with it, but I, I just don’t think any of this I would be in a far worse, I mean, I’m not even in a bad spot actually now I’m, I’m in a good spot, but I, I, I would not be in the spot I’m in without having the, um, I, I just, I’m not a huge talk therapy guy.
Peter Alberding: I just, I don’t really feel like I have that much to think, like, to talk about necessarily. But the combination of, of talk [01:00:00] therapy and, you know, I, I use the euphemism, you know, medical intervention or whatever medicinal intervention, um, is, is, is a mixture that brought it outta me, for sure.
Kyle Buller: How important has those, like integration sessions been for you?
Peter Alberding: Meaning, uh,
Peter Alberding: guess like the after the academy experience or the, the in-between sessions?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, the in between sessions.
Peter Alberding: We did, uh, you know, we had, I dunno, four or five talk sessions before Ketamine come into play. And then I think we did, uh, into three or four integration sessions. Does that sound right, Michael?
Peter Alberding: Something like that. Something like that, yeah. Yeah. We just, I, I think Michael and I had a particularly good rapport and, and we also had really good sessions after the ketamine. You know, I sort of came out of the Ketamine experience.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. Like in that last hour,
Peter Alberding: in the [01:01:00] last hour. Um, and so we, it didn’t take that long to get to a point of Michael was comfortable and I was comfortable that the integration sessions were, uh, I, I, there was, I was doing sufficient self integrion so that when we, I got back for the next session, we could, you know, we would talk about it and I was, I would’ve done.
Peter Alberding: I sort of left it up to Michael to say, Leslie, you know, I’m happy to do these, uh, integration sessions. I don’t know that we need to, but I’ll, you know, I’ll let you be my, I mean, he’s been my guide the whole time.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. I, I try and, uh, individualize it, especially after having had a couple of ketamine sessions, um, you know, for a number of factors.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, it felt reasonable for us to, at this point, be in a cadence of just meeting for the ketamine sessions themselves. You know, in addition to the psychological piece, there’s also the logistical one, the fact that there was a number [01:02:00] of other appointments and things that you were going to Yeah, yeah.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Wanting to be, you know, everything wrapping up work, spending time with your family and feeling, if you were feeling in putting all this together, like. The integration sessions either were not necessarily helpful or possibly even taking away from some of these other things that were going to be really important and meaningful for you.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, I didn’t have a strong need to push that. Um, but we do always have time before and after the dosing to really process that. And especially right afterwards, the lines are open if there’s something that’s coming up and we need to chat.
Peter Alberding: I think if someone is maybe in a deeper crisis situation, I’m sure it’s you probably you’d push a little harder to have integration sessions.
Peter Alberding: Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And, but I think most of our ketamine sessions we’re probably 90 minutes in, in a talk session before we even get to the ketamine. We are. Yeah. Seems to me we spend a [01:03:00] lot of time on, uh, at our appointments.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. We do a fair amount of talking and I think you’re usually inside for about 40 minutes or so.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Yeah. It’s been pretty consistent. Yeah. Um, we’ll do a like. We’ll do an initial dose and then maybe, uh, like 15 milligram booster, about 15 minutes in or so. And with that, you’ve been pretty consistently waking up after 40 minutes, so that at least there’s the time relief for talking. Yeah. Um, and more recently, the frame has shifted a bit where, um, I’m now going over to, uh, Peter’s house and administering it, um, for, uh, you know, a number of reasons, which has, um, you know, shifted, I mean, can, can’t drive, and I’m not, I just
Peter Alberding: physically,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: uh, yeah.
Peter Alberding: The ability to get to Michael’s office is, uh, isn’t really there. I mean, I,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: yeah. And so we had like one session with, uh, Peter’s wife and, um, yeah. Now the, it’s shifted a bit how we’re doing the work.
Peter Alberding: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [01:04:00]
Kyle Buller: Have you noticed a difference between doing it in the office versus your home?
Peter Alberding: Well, so the, the first time we did it at. At at home Lynn. Lynn was there, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we were married for 33 years. We met in college, like, you know, we, we’d been known each other for a long time. Um, and she sort of sat by my side and I held her hand and I, I stroked her hair and told her I loved her and apologized for being sick.
Peter Alberding: I mean, it was a, I, I cried. It was, it was quite emotional for me. Uh, interestingly, it wasn’t that emotional for her. ’cause you, you know, you’re not, she was just sitting next to me, but didn’t really, you know, nobody would know what’s going on in the, in the person’s brain. Um, and so that was pretty powerful.
Peter Alberding: It was comfortable to be at home. Otherwise it’s, you know, you, you’ve got eye shades on. [01:05:00] You’re listening to music. I, it could be, you know, you could be, I, for me, I think, I feel like I could be anywhere. My, you know, like in the, in the, uh, the most recent session. I mean, this was pretty interesting as, ’cause I’ve never, I’ve always been comfortable lay down and, you know, sort of ready to go when it’s time.
Peter Alberding: And in the last, I don’t know, six or eight weeks, my breathing has, uh, declined, you know, considerably that like, if I lay flat on a floor, I, I might suffocate if I didn’t have breathing assistance. And so I need to be at an angle. But, uh, before the last session, I was just in some, some respiratory distress and I was a little stressed and like, I think Michael had the syringe, like ready to go and I, I hit the, hit the abort button like three or four times.
Peter Alberding: I said, you know, I’m sorry, I need a minute. And had to crank up my ventilation, uh, device to get my [01:06:00] breathing back on track. And so I was really, I was worried about having. You know, respiratory, uh, and, you know, you get, they, they, it’s a vicious cycle if you start having a respiratory distress. ’cause that distress just gets, increases the respiratory distress.
Peter Alberding: And I struck me as, uh, problematic to be in some respiratory distress while on ketamine. Um, so there are some unique aspects to, uh, Michael coming here so I can be tilted up. Um, and obviously have my machine, you know, at my side and, uh, you know, helping me, um, just get through the session.
Kyle Buller: You bring up like an interesting point.
Kyle Buller: And Michael, I’m curious like, is there a point where, you know, we know Ketamine is, has a pretty decent safety profile used in the hospital all the time. Is there a point where like, you know, the [01:07:00] disease is at a certain point where it feels risky to possibly use ketamine?
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I mean, the, the short answer is there’s always going to be some sort of risk involved with, uh, dosing someone with ketamine.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, you know, it can have, um, a number of different effects. Uh, there’s a very small but non-zero chance of laryngospasm. Uh, you have the blood pressure effect, any number of other things that can be coming up. Um, what I would say with that is if it seemed like, um, say Pete’s. Medical profile had, uh, shifted significantly to the point that say you, you know, were having, uh, real trouble, um, uh, uh, very real, uh, trouble getting the oxygen that you’re needing even without ketamine on board.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Um, I’d probably be having a discussion with, um, PCP, maybe having a care [01:08:00] team meeting just for us to be reassessing what the risks were in that situation. So short answer is everybody’s going to be different. That said, it is, uh, something that I have worked with and many other people have, uh, worked with, with patients who are in hospice settings.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And, um, there’s, uh, many hospice providers who, um, will work with ketamine as a form of pain control. So. I wouldn’t say that there is any say all or nothing, and each case is just going to be individualized. But especially for something like this, we’re going to wanna be thinking, uh, through things on an ongoing basis.
Kyle Buller: Oh, you’re muted there. Oh,
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Pete, Pete.
Peter Alberding: Yeah. No, I was telling my wife that the doorbell is about to ring. Um, well, I can assure you that the thought has occurred to me also, that there’s potentially some, uh, you know, some risk, uh, as, in addition to Michael thinking about it, the one, uh, consideration that [01:09:00] I’ve had is the, the, the non-invasive ventilation unit that I have is like, if I, if I stop breathing and this thing is attached to me, it’s gonna blow enough air into my lungs to keep me breathing.
Peter Alberding: Um, so there’s a significant, uh, sort of safety valve associated with having my BiPAP machine, you know. Running and attached. Uh, just from my perspective, I, I know that, um, and, you know, that’s, that’s part of the reason I wear it, but it’s a pretty sophisticated device that’s not just blowing the same amount of air every time.
Peter Alberding: It responds to what’s what, how my, what my respiration is in terms of how hard it’s going to fill my lungs up. Um, which is not me thinking of a moment from a unique circumstance. I, most people are not dealing with my, the disease that I have. But
Michael Alpert, M.D.: yeah, I was just thinking of a moment in one of our earlier [01:10:00] sessions where you were very still on the sofa in my office and it was this moment of almost experiencing a deathlike stillness.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And I remember from my perspective, just watching you being a little bit nervous, and then you started breathing and then you told me afterwards in the integration that you were thinking, oh no, here’s this, uh, you know, six, five dead guy on my, so five, you know, Michael’s probably gonna be getting worried.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: I gotta take a couple of breaths. Um, so, you know, this being something that’s kind of been an ongoing part of our, uh, work together.
Peter Alberding: Yeah, that was funny. Yeah.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Just
Peter Alberding: in that vein, the, uh, the time where I was, I was envisioning dying and the silhouettes around the bed. I remember saying to myself sort of at the end of like, don’t die actually.
Peter Alberding: Now you’re on ketamine, so don’t die. ’cause Michael’s gonna have a problem on his hands among other things, uh, which is part of the dark humor. [01:11:00]
Kyle Buller: Which is probably needed at times. Right.
Peter Alberding: I think if you can’t laugh about some things, it’s far worse.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I actually see we’re a little bit over time and this, uh, interview just flew by.
Kyle Buller: So, um, Peter, I just really appreciate you and your time and for sharing your story. I feel like this is gonna be really helpful for a lot of people listening that, you know, maybe they’re going through it, family members, um, just getting some insight. And Michael, thank you as well for, um, you know, sharing all your insights and, and pitching this idea.
Kyle Buller: So I would love to wrap up with some closing thoughts. Um, and Michael, since you just went off mute, maybe we’ll pass it over to you if you have any like, closing thoughts to, to wrap up.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: Sure. Well, first of all, I wanna thank both of you for, uh, doing this interview and, uh, it’s been such a privilege to be able to accompany Pete on this journey over the past couple of years.
Michael Alpert, M.D.: And I’m hoping that in the course of. Our work together. And also in the course [01:12:00] of doing this podcast, it’ll get people to really, seriously consider what role, not only ketamine can be playing, but ketamine assisted psychotherapy that really pays attention to the role of things like, uh, music talk therapy, the preparation, all of these other aspects that have just been so influential to the work that we’ve been doing together, and take these seriously as we’re thinking about what it means to be incorporating Ketamine, uh, into mental health context and more specifically psychedelics into, uh, western medicine at this point in time.
Peter Alberding: Well, my pleasure to be on with both you guys. Um, I, uh, my attitude is I, I would like the, you know, whatever the traditional medical community or however you wanna phrase that to particularly people dealing with like critical life, you know, life ending illnesses to, uh. Be knowledgeable about ketamine [01:13:00] and how beneficial it can be to, for many people.
Peter Alberding: Uh, you know, I don’t know that it’s right for everybody or not right for everybody. I, but I would encourage anybody who’s dealing just from, from a existential angst standpoint, I think there are many other applications for, for academy treatment. But as far as I’m concerned or my, you know, my specific situation, uh, I would encourage anybody to at least get educated and consider how it might be helpful.
Peter Alberding: Um, because it has had enormous, enormous, I’ve had enormous benefits from it that, um, I’m grateful that I found Michael. Frankly, I, I’d be in a far different situation, um, uh, in the absence of the relationship that we’ve developed.
Kyle Buller: I am glad that you found Michael as well and were able to start this journey.
Kyle Buller: So yeah, thank you again both and Peter, thank you for your [01:14:00] very vulnerable and, and shares with us today. It’s been been a real blessing. Yeah.
Michael Alpert MD – https://www.mdmalpert.com
A patient death in any care setting is a tragedy. In this case, it involves ibogaine, a medically complex intervention that sits outside regulated medical systems in the United States.
On January 21, 2026, Ambio published a public statement reporting that a patient “recently passed away while participating in Ambio’s Detoxification Program.” Ambio did not disclose the person’s identity or additional details, citing privacy.
At the time of writing, key facts remain unconfirmed publicly. Ambio is a clinic governed by privacy laws. Generally in situations like these, providers can’t release patient details without consent from the family (think HIPAA rules). The cause of death has not been established in a public record. In situations like this, speculation fills the gap quickly, and it often hardens into certainty before evidence exists.
Ambio is bound to privacy rules, just like other clinics. They did acknowledge the incident publicly, which is more than what many operators choose to do. That does not resolve unanswered questions, and it does not remove risk. It does set a tone. In a field where silence is often treated as the safer option, plain communication helps.
This death should not trigger a rush to assign certainty where none exists.
Ibogaine is not a casual intervention, particularly in detox contexts. Its risk profile is well known among clinicians and experienced providers. Cardiac risks, including QT prolongation and arrhythmias, can be relevant. Electrolyte shifts and drug interactions are important to track. Ibogaine and noribogaine have long half lives, which complicate monitoring and follow up. Many people seeking ibogaine arrive with complex substance use histories, co-occurring conditions, and a body already under strain.
Anyone who has spent time around ibogaine work knows how much safety knowledge lives informally inside individual clinics, shared verbally, adjusted on the fly, and rarely written down.
Some have hundreds of SOPs, and some have very few.
What is missing across much of the ibogaine ecosystem is not awareness of risk. It is a shared infrastructure for learning from it.
Many ibogaine providers operate as islands. Screening standards vary. Near misses and adverse events may be handled internally. There is no widely adopted registry and no protected reporting channel that allows clinics to share safety information without elevating legal exposure.
For providers, sharing details can, as of today, break privacy rules, create civil liability risk, criminal scrutiny, or the loss of the ability to operate.
Here is a paper out of UC Davis that discusses one configuration that may help the field.
This isolation is not just cultural, it is structural.
Worth keeping in mind, is that the global marketplace for drugs –including substances like fentanyl – and heroin is inconsistent, and rife with problems. There are MANY new drugs hitting markets worldwide that can impact how people need to detox. Novel drugs can also introduce new confounding factors when introducing complicated medicines like ibogaine. Ibogaine detox clinics are facing this issue head on without much data about what these substances are, and how long they could impact people pursuing detoxification. Ambio cites this problem in its statement, saying:
“… we feel it is important, during a period of increasing interest in the promise offered by ibogaine treatment, to reiterate that there are ongoing risks associated with ibogaine as a detoxification treatment. Recently, these risks have been heightened and underscored by the increasing number of dangerous, unknown, and ever-changing adulterants in the global supply of street fentanyl.”
When people refer to prohibition in the context of ibogaine, they often mean more than illegality.
In the United States, ibogaine’s legal status produces several practical effects. It limits formal clinical pathways and pushes patients toward care outside regulated healthcare systems. It complicates research and funding, slowing evidence development. It drives medical tourism into mixed legal environments. It discourages transparency by making safety communication legally risky. It keeps the field fragmented by making coordination feel dangerous.
Prohibition does not eliminate demand. It tends to suppress coordination, data sharing, and the pace at which safety practices improve.
If ibogaine were legal and regulated in the United States, safety could be addressed more openly. Standards could be shared. Data could be pooled. Protocols could change in response to evidence rather than rumor. Under current policy, much of this remains difficult, and safety advances remain uneven.
In regulated medicine, systems exist to learn from adverse events and near misses. They are imperfect, but they exist because isolated practice reliably repeats preventable harm.
If the ibogaine field wants fewer tragedies, it needs a central mechanism for safety learning. That could take the form of an industry association, a trade group, a university affiliated project, or a nonprofit coalition or consortium with clear legal and ethical guardrails.
This structure should protect and incentivise learning from experience.
To their credit, Ambio did acknowledge that they are improving protocols based on this incident and are sharing their modifications to help the field improve safety outcomes.
Established providers, with medical oversight, need a way to share what went wrong and what changed afterward without turning every report into a liability event. These databases will likely need to protect PII (personal identifying information) and will have access tightly restricted to approved researchers. Medicine handles this well elsewhere. This is essential because practitioners need baseline standards that evolve with evidence. Researchers need access to usable real world data. Patients need safety knowledge that travels with the practice, not just with individual clinics.
Bryan Hubbard’s proposed IbogaVerse points toward one possible model, meaning a structured cross provider effort focused on safety data and protocol refinement. Work like this is routine in regulated healthcare. In prohibited care, it remains optional and risky.
A practical starting point is simple: a standing working group among established providers with medical oversight, plus outside clinical and research input, and a clear firewall between quality improvement and public blame. Not a tribunal. A safety table.
Here is one example of an effort from a few years back. Clinical Guidelines for Ibogaine-Assisted Detoxification (2016).
This death also sits within broader failures in addiction care in the United States. The dominant treatment model absorbs enormous spending, yet many people struggle to find sustained support after discharge. Outcomes vary widely. People cycle through multiple episodes of care when follow up, housing, or mental health support is insufficient.
That pattern reflects system design, not just individual choices.
As Americans for Ibogaine and others have argued, policymakers have not funded serious research pathways for ibogaine at a scale that demand and risk would justify. When government declines to study a practice people are already pursuing, it does not necessarily reduce use. It shifts risk onto patients and onto providers operating in legal gray zones.
If federal and state governments are serious about returning people to their families and communities, they should fund rigorous research, build regulated pilot pathways, and compare outcomes honestly against existing models rather than treating those models as fixed.
Spending is substantial. Results are inconsistent.
Ambio’s decision to acknowledge the death publicly was constructive and makes more serious conversation possible.
What comes next should be unglamorous: shared standards, shared learning, and protected reporting of adverse events. This work will not fully mature under prohibition, but parts of it can begin now among established providers willing to coordinate around patient safety.
The larger fix is policy. Keep forcing ibogaine into the margins and serious harms will remain part of the risk patients and providers quietly carry. Allow research and coordination to happen in the open and safety can improve faster.
Until research and regulation catch up, the limits of the system will continue to set the ceiling on safety.
This article is for informational purposes only and does not provide medical advice. Ibogaine carries serious medical risks, including cardiac complications and death. Anyone considering ibogaine should consult qualified medical professionals, understand the legal risks in their jurisdiction, and approach treatment claims with caution.
Oli Genn-Bash (Brighton, UK) joins Joe Moore for a grounded conversation on the boom in functional mushrooms and why the category may be moving too quickly. As the founder of The Fungi Consultant, Oli works with consumers and brands to demystify functional mushrooms, with a focus on education, traceability, and realistic expectations.
The conversation begins with a critique of wellness hype cycles. Oli explains how consumer desperation for help with anxiety, sleep, stress, and cognition can create an opening for a rapid wave of products that are not always grounded in careful sourcing or clear science. Using lion’s mane as a case study, he contrasts popular cognitive claims with traditional use, arguing that the most useful path forward is to slow down, get more literate about mechanisms, and build a market that can sustain trust over time.
Oli describes how individual health is inseparable from community realities, including food access, class dynamics, and what wellness advice can sound like when it lands from a place of privilege. They discuss mycelial thinking as a practical framework for collaboration and resource-sharing, and why mushrooms tend to attract unusually generous “teach everyone” communities.
They also explore the role of mushrooms in meaning-making and consciousness. Oli shares personal reflections on mushrooms as allies, the felt sense of “agency” in psychedelic experiences, and how those experiences can encourage behavioral change without forcing it. The conversation touches on alcohol culture in the UK and the possibility of non-alcoholic alternatives, including how functional mushrooms, microdosing, and other botanicals can support social confidence and energy for some people.
Finally, they look ahead at fungal innovation beyond supplements: materials, soil health, regenerative approaches, bioremediation, and what the broader psychedelic movement might learn from fungi’s patience, symbiosis, and balance.
Oli argues that functional mushrooms have accelerated into a high-pressure wellness marketplace, with brands rushing products to market and consumers struggling to determine what is legitimate, traceable, and effective. He draws parallels to the UK CBD market, describing how oversaturation and inconsistent quality can erode trust and collapse prices.
Lion’s mane is a useful example of how modern marketing can outrun nuance. Oli notes the gap between popular cognitive claims and traditional use, and points toward the gut-brain axis as one plausible bridge that requires more careful explanation and patience.
Oli prefers the term functional mushrooms over medicinal mushrooms, emphasizing systems-level support rather than a pharmaceutical model. He describes a view of health that starts on the cellular level and asks what supports function, resilience, and prevention.
Oli speaks candidly about barriers to wellness in the UK, including food poverty, access to education about cooking, and how class dynamics shape what health messaging sounds like. The broader point is structural: it is difficult to talk about supplements without considering the baseline conditions of daily life.
The conversation highlights “mycelial thinking” as more than a metaphor. Oli describes collaborations in futures-oriented communities and how fungal logic can inform collaboration, non-zero-sum outcomes, and resource sharing.
Joe notes how strikingly generous mushroom communities can be, especially around cultivation and identification. Oli agrees and adds a provocative angle: the possibility of “agency” in fungi and a sense that mushrooms invite humans into relationship, curiosity, and participation.
Oli reflects on nearly three years without alcohol and describes how functional mushrooms and other botanicals can support mood, energy, and social confidence for some people. They also discuss the realities of events culture, including the need for more inclusive non-alcoholic options and sensitivity to addiction histories.
They look at the expansion of fungi into materials, fashion, regenerative agriculture, soil health, and bioremediation. Oli emphasizes balance: fungal innovations are promising, but scaling and real-world constraints matter.
Oli critiques extractive, capital-driven dynamics in the psychedelic ecosystem and suggests fungi offer a different ethic: patience, humility, symbiosis, and realism about parasitism and imbalance.
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] All right. Psychedelics today is back in live. Oli, how are you doing today?
Oli Genn-Bash: Good. How are you doing, Joe?
Joe Moore: Doing great. Happy to be here with you to talk about mushrooms and a lot more. Um, yes. Yeah. And you’re joining us today from Brighton, uk, is that right?
Oli Genn-Bash: That’s right down on the south coast,
Joe Moore: yeah.
Joe Moore: Awesome. Um, so we got connected through our friends over at Phil Delic and, uh, they’re coming up this weekend. So shout out to Phil Delic. Thanks for connecting us. And, um, so you, you kind of run an organization called the Fungi Consultant. I assume you’re doing a lot, a lot of kind of helping people kind of understand and connect to mushroom culture.
Joe Moore: Is that right?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah, so I guess demystifying functional mushrooms primarily because they’ve become. Quite a hyped up [00:01:00] wellness product. They seem to have exploded in recent months. Recent years, and I think things have maybe moved too quickly. So I do educational sessions, give talks, one-to-one consultations, as well as, uh, consulting with different brands who are looking to develop products and just learn more about the space, people that are coming from different areas in the wellness industry that want to start utilizing the benefits of functional mushrooms.
Joe Moore: Yeah, great. There’s, there’s so much there. And I think like, oh gosh. Yeah, I don’t know. Is, is it too fast or too slow or too late is the right framing, right? It’s, it’s hard because we’ve come from such a micropho place and we’re looking towards micro fillic cultures like Japan, and [00:02:00] we’re just like, what do we do here?
Oli Genn-Bash: There’s, I think, a sentiment at the moment where, and this relates to psychedelics and we can talk about this as well, where people are feeling like they’re in a situation which is quite desperate. So the narrative with all things wellness is, okay, you have something going on. Okay. We’ve been able to identify quite core issues when it comes to functional mushrooms, things like anxiety, sleep stress, cognitive function.
Oli Genn-Bash: These are all key things that we need to focus on. So when we see something that could provide that lifeline. We go, okay, brilliant. And then everyone starts talking about Lion’s name, for example, as benefit for cognitive function. But actually if you look at the traditional use of it, it’s been, um, recommended for [00:03:00] digestive issues and the gut.
Oli Genn-Bash: Okay. So does that mean we need to then look at what’s going on in the gut microbiome and the gut brain axis and, okay, how’s that having an indirect effect? So maybe we need to slow down and really think about what’s going on and tease things apart. I do find that there’s not necessarily that same patience that I have.
Oli Genn-Bash: I really like to nerd out with it. So I like to understand what’s going on, and I understand it from the consumer point of view where they want something that’s just going to help them. But in doing that, it’s like. There’s a weird, I dunno, you could call it the capitalist machine or something. This, this creature that sees an opportunity and goes, okay, brilliant.
Oli Genn-Bash: And then it spurts out all of these brands and people are just slapping their logo on a product. They’re having a contract manufacturer make it. They’re not, they necessarily involved in the traceability or all the [00:04:00] steps involved. And then we just start to see an explosion like any other industry. So my concern is that it could end up collapsing.
Oli Genn-Bash: So, you know, I’ve seen it happen with the CBD industry in the UK where there’s just so many brands and then the price of CBD collapsed and then it wasn’t really viable. There was too much CBD being produced and people kind of lost faith in it because. There’s just, you know, you try one thing and it’s not good.
Oli Genn-Bash: You try another thing and it’s not good. And after a while you just go, okay, well how do I actually know which product works for me? And because we can’t, the industry is tied by the fact that it can’t recommend these products for medicinal use. So then my take is that if we slow down, if we educate ourselves, if we can be comfortable with nerding out a bit, [00:05:00] then we’ll be able to strengthen the industry.
Joe Moore: Hmm. So
Joe Moore: capitalism always requires the next thing. Um, and it’s, you know. Even if it’s something that looks like resistance, like let’s say sex Pistols or something, or punk rock, you know, how many months until you’re in the, the shopping mall buying these things that were resistant. And it’s, it kind of feels like that with CBD and cannabis and now mushrooms.
Joe Moore: Um, but, you know, one lovely thing mushrooms have for them is that you can grow them quite cheaply at home. I, I was trying to figure out how to grow pot years ago, and I, I was like, this is really expensive when I can just buy it for 50 bucks. Like, what am I doing? And then mushrooms came along as like, oh, I could grow forever for $300 forever.
Joe Moore: Forever. That’s crazy. What is this about? I’m gonna learn how to [00:06:00] do that. And of course I started with the, you know, most exciting kinds and then worked towards gourmet and, um, you know what, uh, do you have a, do you have a title for things like, do. Medicinal mushrooms, like we say, medicinal mushrooms here, but it’s like, you know, it’s not medicine in the same way that antibiotics are medicine
Oli Genn-Bash: yet.
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah. So the term that I use is functional mushrooms and sometimes that can confuse people. ’cause there’s the term functional medicine, which for me is, is a, is a useful area to explore because essentially it’s, there are different systems in our body and any system requires certain things to be functioning properly.
Oli Genn-Bash: And how I understand it with a lot of what’s happening with the mushrooms, I think with the recent research that fascinates me about psilocybin mushrooms in extending your lifespan. Okay, [00:07:00] so that’s happening on the mitochondrial level. On the cellular level, that’s. There’s something going on where, and, and you see that widely with the different types of functional mushrooms, where it’s really getting into the building blocks of these different systems in your body where if we start to understand them, then we can really arm ourselves with a, a new way of preventing dysfunction.
Oli Genn-Bash: And the more I explore with all fungi, I kind of understand that disease presents itself in the body where there are cells which aren’t functioning properly, and then we call it, okay, it’s liver disease, it’s heart disease, it’s whatever it is, but it’s on a cellular level, there’s things which aren’t quite working properly.
Oli Genn-Bash: And so I do think, and you know, I guess my, my entry point into the functional mushrooms has been the psychedelic mushrooms has really been. [00:08:00] Quite powerful experiences with them where I have understood directly that they are here to sort stuff out on all these different levels. You know, we see it on an industry level with food, agriculture, medicine materials on the spiritual level with the, the psychedelic mushrooms.
Oli Genn-Bash: And for me, the psychedelic mushrooms pointed me towards the wider functional kingdom where they just said, look, you, you know, if you, if you want to be enthusiastic about mushrooms, what better way than to have a psychedelic experience in the Woodlands where the mushrooms are telling you, look, everything’s connected.
Oli Genn-Bash: Go forth, go explore this world of fungi. Because it does seem that there’s a lot of different areas when it comes to wellness, especially in health and, and preventative disease where they can sort stuff out.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, [00:09:00] it’s a funny, it’s a funny conundrum. We’ve kind of like walked our way into this, um, kind of problem. It’s like, um, this idea that, um, that new product is gonna fix us, that new thing getting sold to us is gonna be the thing that pushes me over to the edge. You know, sometimes it is for some people, um, and we have some con contemporary pharma examples of that.
Joe Moore: Um, but, you know, it’s not really the case often with like this natural health thing where it’s like, oh, just throw more turmeric or CBD or matcha or mushrooms or whatever, and it’s like, oh, maybe we actually need change as well. Um, and let’s, let’s pull some things out that are actually kinda harmful, which is kind of, I think part of that functional medicine frame.
Joe Moore: Um, or functional mushroom frame, which is like, what’s, what’s harming us at the same time as we’re trying to heal? Do you kind of get into that much?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yes. I [00:10:00] overwhelmingly, what I say to my clients on, on all the different levels is, look, these mushrooms can help to unlock new ways of living your life. Um, for me personally, I’ve, I’ve gone down a journey where my health in general just seems to have been massively improved.
Oli Genn-Bash: The, the more that I consume these mushrooms in this intentional way, um, you know, it, it allows, I. I think there’s a lot going on with your gut bacteria. I’m, I’m sort of nerding out quite a lot about gut bacteria and, and I just think mentally, physically, there’s a lot going on and mushrooms seem to be unlocking a lot of what’s going on there.
Oli Genn-Bash: And [00:11:00] when you are modulating your gut bacteria, especially with these fungal polysaccharides, you are digesting your food better. And not only that, when you are modulating your gut bacteria, you desire healthier food and you get put off the food that is going to discourage that healthy microbial growth.
Oli Genn-Bash: So again, it’s kind of coming back to just this fungal mindset. It’s like, yeah, if we actually think like nature, if we think in these, these mycelial ways or, or fungal ways, then we can understand, okay. There’s a balance to be had. And actually we can encourage good growth inside of ourselves that will help to keep things ticking along.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I do think you start to clear out this junk, if you are engaging with your cellular system, with your [00:12:00] mitochondria, it is actually having this function of strengthening your oxidative, um, you know, the, the health of, of this kind of renewal of, um, anti-aging, of preventing certain disease. So I am quite, I wouldn’t say evangelical, but I do stress it quite a lot in my consultations is that, look, you, you need to think about your health on this wider level, on, you know, all the different things.
Oli Genn-Bash: And it is not to, um, shame people. It’s, it is more the opposite. It’s more to empower people that. I’ve always spoken about these things as allies, that, that came along quite quickly with my psychedelic use. I was like, oh, okay. These are, you know, they’re, they’re pals. They’re really here for us. Okay. So if we get on board with the fungi, then they’ll start to, they’ll be kind to us and they’ll, you know, we’ll go gently.
Oli Genn-Bash: It’s not, you’re not going [00:13:00] in and changing your lifestyle drastically. You’ll start to incorporate things which are conducive to that fungal lifestyle.
Joe Moore: So how did mushrooms first enter your life in a meaningful way, and what was the turning point that made you want to kind of really dedicate yourself there
Oli Genn-Bash: in a meaningful way? It was, I dunno if a stroke of luck or, you know, my first year of university at, uh, Kent University in Canterbury, they were growing literally 10 minutes walk.
Oli Genn-Bash: The, the University of Ken is, uh, is situated, uh, around a bit of farmland and yeah, you just walk and Canterbury in the, in the sixties and seventies was quite a psychedelic, uh, place. It was the birth of the progressive rock. It was known as the Canterbury Scene. University of Kemp was [00:14:00] quite a left wing revolutionary university, and I do think probably, you know, the fact that mushrooms seem to grow quite nicely around that area might have had something to do with it.
Oli Genn-Bash: And it just, quick bit of trivia first.
Joe Moore: So I, I have, I have Chaucer stuck in my head as like Canterbury Tales. Oh yeah, yeah. Um, kind of like a historical moment. Is Canterbury historically significant before, um, Rox scene kind of popped up or geographically important to uk?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah, so it’s the. The, the center of the Church of England, and it’s cool, been, been culturally significant for at least a thousand years.
Oli Genn-Bash: It’s got the oldest Christian Church in the world, uh, St. Martin’s church in Canterbury, and it has so many of these amazing [00:15:00] historically significant places. Um, you know, Caesar attempted to, to take it a couple of times and it was really difficult, and then eventually it was Romanized and um, so there’s a lot of Roman history there.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, Canterbury Cathedral is, yeah, that’s the, the home of the, the Church of England where the Archbishop sits. So it is incredibly, it’s a UNESCO World Heritage site, so being there for university was quite amazing and I still have connections there. Some of the friends that I have there are. Some of my dearest friends, some of the most amazing, wonderful people, and there’s an energy there, which is, um, quite magical.
Oli Genn-Bash: You know, there’s the idea that the Canterbury Cathedral itself was built on a lay line. Mm-hmm. And you do feel this weird pull. There’s, uh, right around the cathedral, there’s a few different streets, which just all seem [00:16:00] to convalesce into this weird energy, and you feel yourself being drawn. And that was an interesting place to trip.
Oli Genn-Bash: You know, the, the university as well, being right around farmland and woodland. You Yeah, it was, it was just amazing. You really felt that natural kind of psychedelic connection and then Yeah. Culturally, I think. It just became that. And there’s still certainly that scene to a, to a certain extent, um, it has been made quite difficult.
Oli Genn-Bash: The Church of England has, you know, the, the cathedral owns everything within the city. W and they’ve made it quite difficult for the creative scene. There’s been noise complaints against venues. They want to keep it like a, a touristy, uh, a city, even though it’s, you know, it’s kind of town size, but they call it a city.
Oli Genn-Bash: And, [00:17:00] but you know, there’s, there’s still that heartbeat of the magical, um, surroundings. There’s a, a local festival called Smugglers Festival, which is, is quite small, about 2000 people. But it’s, it’s just an opportunity for all of these kind of psychedelic Canterbury and, uh, people from the, the local areas to.
Oli Genn-Bash: Come together. Run. Yeah. I, I, you know, I still visit and, um, I think having psychedelic experiences there, obviously that, that kind of has an imprint on your, um, you know, the, the connection to a place, right?
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Is it, um, somewhat similar to the US and, and where like these things are growing sometimes outdoors.
Joe Moore: Um, and it’s, you know, you’re not necessarily gonna get, um, in trouble if they’re growing in your yard, [00:18:00] but like after you could pick it and put it in your mouth, like with intent of putting it in your mouth, is that kind of a crime that anybody’s been popped for?
Oli Genn-Bash: So you do occasionally get reports of, you know, you have to be careful if you’re out on someone’s land and you are picking and you’re quite visible.
Oli Genn-Bash: There has been reports of, you know, police being called. And there’s the joke of the grazing loophole in the UK where it’s the law is once you pick it, then that counts as human intervention. So then if you’ve got down on all fours and just ate the mushroom straight out of the ground, then you wouldn’t technically be committing an offense.
Oli Genn-Bash: And so, yeah, you know, cultivation is, is a really interesting one. And I think you, you touched on this where quite a, a revolutionary thing to do in this country is to cultivate. And, [00:19:00] uh, if you have the space and, and you’re able to do it, I think more people are starting to realize, okay, we can. You know, it’s actually less risky to, to grow in your, um, in your bedroom rather than be out on someone’s land picking and risk, you know, the owner of the land calling the police or, yeah.
Joe Moore: Fascinating. Um, so beyond helping clients kind of, um, figure out how they want to include this stuff, or the most skillful way for them to include this stuff in their products, like what are you focused on right now? Is it, is it ecology or policy or, or health generally?
Joe Moore: I am,
Oli Genn-Bash: I am focused on, I guess health from a simultaneously individual [00:20:00] perspective and then the, the collective perspective. I think that. Health stems from the community. And I think in just even basic senses, not, not necessarily talking about supplements or functional mushrooms, but just from the food that we, in the UK generally, there’s a lot of food poverty.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I think accessing good quality food is quite difficult. I think the UK gets a reputation for having bad cuisine. Um, if you can afford it, you can eat amazing food in this country.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, and, and I mean, British food, not, not just, you know, the, the different amazing culinary cuisines that we have here.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, so then from a community perspective, it’s, it could be that. [00:21:00] People aren’t necessarily getting good health. They’re not encouraged to, to get good health. They don’t necessarily have access to education about cooking. They might not be culturally connected to any sense of, of cooking. So the food they might be eating might just be,
Oli Genn-Bash: you know, what we call ready-made meals in the uk. Something that you just put in the oven and there’s, there’s difficulty there if you try and encourage it. You are, you are often seen as, because the class system is so entrenched in the uk, if you, you have to be quite sensitive when you engage in things like food education because you can come of it from a place of privilege where you might have grown up with access and to knowing how to cook or come from a culture where these things are encouraged, uh, where you know, you might be a kid and included in the whole process of cooking.
Oli Genn-Bash: [00:22:00] So then I think, okay, if we look at supplements, functional mushrooms, health, preventative health, that has a lot of barriers. Even more so than food. You know, it’s, it’s quite expensive buying functional mushroom supplements. So then you have to be quite sensitive when you are engaging conversations about things like gut bacteria.
Oli Genn-Bash: For some people that’s so far off, but actually that could be a really good way to maybe, you know, foster good connections. You might look at. Yeah, as I said, other societies where they’re, where they’re eating these types of food, which is just encouraging kind of togetherness or societies where people are eating together more and, and then we can look at the wider health stuff, I think.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I think as well, you know, that relates to. My interest in the psychedelic space where there’s been a [00:23:00] lot of focus on the, on the individual. And I think it’s really important for me. I’ve had transformative experiences often times on my own, you know, especially where I’ve been able to go really deep and really get, you know, not necessarily to the bottom of stuff, but really start to kind of grapple with things.
Oli Genn-Bash: And then I think, okay, what’s happening with the wider community? You know, what’s happening with my, uh, family members who aren’t engaging in these experiences? I have, I, I come back to that place and, and that, you know, that goes for even God, things like fermented food. I’ve had conversations with family members and friends where if I mention sauerkraut, they kind of look at me weirdly.
Oli Genn-Bash: So there’s, there’s these barriers where it’s like, hey, if we were all eating sauerkraut and taking a microdose occasionally, or a macro days once or twice a year. We might be more connected and then looking at, and I’m [00:24:00] not, I don’t want to romanticize, right? I think that happens a lot when it comes to other cultures that like, okay, we romanticize psychedelic use and say, oh, these tribal cultures are all connected.
Oli Genn-Bash: And that’s not necessarily always the case, but I think it could maybe foster a bit more connectivity in, uh, you know, places where we’re so disconnected.
Joe Moore: I think back to how obnoxious I must have been when I was pushing a lot of the stuff in my earlier days and, you know, just the total kind of ignorance or how I sounded and kind of like informational privilege was kinda operating with, and, and you know, sometimes also economic privilege is just wild.
Joe Moore: So I’m, I’m glad to hear you’re kind of taking, um, systems aware approach here. Mm-hmm. I think that’s one of the few ways we can really make up a big dent is being systems aware.
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been recently collaborating with someone called Jess [00:25:00] Jorgensen, who runs an organization called Foresight, and it’s related to the field of, of futures thinking of, of foresight.
Oli Genn-Bash: And it really does go into to this whole idea of, okay, how can we utilize this mycelial thinking? Uh, another organization I’ve been collaborating with is Mycelium Hub. Uh, they’re based out in Sweden and they run events. Again, it’s, it’s based around this idea of mycelial thinking natural law. Okay, how do we
Oli Genn-Bash: utilize systems which might be able to provide more meaning, create. Scenarios where it’s win-win, where it’s not necessarily competitive. Where I think people might be feeling exhausted from working in jobs where they have to compete all the time, where they might be working [00:26:00] 70 hour weeks where okay, they’re earning lots of money, but after a while they just kind of think, okay, what am I really doing it for?
Oli Genn-Bash: And I think the benefit of psychedelics is bringing you back into that inner child is, is helping you to find what really excites you and, and bringing that into your adult life. Doing that kind of re-parenting where, okay, now we’re at the right place at the right time. And I, I dunno if it’s a coincidence, but mushrooms seem to be.
Oli Genn-Bash: Popping up now in, you know, the, the general collective consciousness in all these different ways. So maybe now is the right time for the people who are interested in these spaces to come forward and utilize that enthusiasm. Because, you know, I, I spend a lot, when people ask me what do I do? I just like, you know, I spend a lot of my time having meetings with people in the [00:27:00] US and India and Thailand, people that are just working in the mushroom space and literally people on LinkedIn will send me a message saying, Hey, let’s chat about mushrooms.
Oli Genn-Bash: I go, brilliant, let’s do it. And, and it’s just, it’s great. And, you know, I try and, uh, you know, make it work with teaching and consulting, but generally it is that childlike enthusiasm. And, you know, if you see me in the, in the woodlands where, you know, if it’s been raining at the right time of the season, I will.
Oli Genn-Bash: I’ll just think back to kind of being a child in, in the forest. Okay. And just feeling the fun of finding a mushroom that looks really interesting and taking a photo of it, or, you know.
Joe Moore: Yeah. How do you describe this kind of inherent sharing kind of thing, in essence, in the mushroom community? Because I find it just so [00:28:00] alien to how we kind of wanna operate most of the time in our culture.
Joe Moore: Um, but everybody wants to teach everybody how to grow or everybody wants to talk about identification or whatever it is, and it’s just infectious. But it’s, is it that childlike thing that we just want to share how wonderful this is?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yes, I think so. And I, I do also think, uh, they, they, they might be hijacking us, you know, who knows in this, in this way of.
Oli Genn-Bash: Symbiotic relationships where we can’t underestimate the fact that there might be intentionality, there might be agency. I’m always stunned every time I consume psychedelic mushrooms that there’s a sense of agency to them. It just, it just baffles me. And then when you look at the, the traditional Chinese medicine, [00:29:00] um, they’re almost kind of personified.
Oli Genn-Bash: They’re, they’re called these names, which, which gives them person that gives them agency. And yeah, they, they might have a plan for us. I don’t know. You know, um, people like Terrance McKenna kind of think they, they came from space. They might have come and, and colonized us. They’ve done a really good job.
Oli Genn-Bash: We’ve, I find it interesting that, you know the reason. We can benefit from them is the same reason that they can cause us lots of problems. Spores can cause us asthma, yeasts, molds, they can be really bad for our lungs. So, ’cause we’ve co-evolved with them this way. Then our bodies also have receptors which can respond really well to the psychedelic parts of them, the functional side of them.
Oli Genn-Bash: So yeah, it might be, uh, [00:30:00] yeah, sort of, I dunno, fungal panspermia.
Joe Moore: Yeah. That’s great. Um, we should, I should probably do some sort of conference on that someday. Just kind of Terrance McKenna in review. Yeah, right. Like that fungal pin spur me think is obviously something like it’s core to his thinking, so,
Joe Moore: yeah.
Joe Moore: In the past you’ve, you’ve talked about mushrooms as more than organisms. How do you personally understand their role in consciousness healing and meaning making? Big question. I know, but wherever you wanna go with that.
Oli Genn-Bash: There’s an, there’s a, there’s a feeling of familiarity about them that I find really fascinating. I think I’m not someone that’s actually gone through, uh, the DMT experience. I’ve kind of touched on the [00:31:00] edges of it, and with powerful experiences with mushrooms, there’s something
Oli Genn-Bash: where it just feels, you know, I, I’ve had experiences where I’ve had this direct communication, which feels like they are welcoming me home. They say like, oh, welcome back. Quite similar to DMT.
Oli Genn-Bash: So,
Oli Genn-Bash: yeah, it could be that.
Oli Genn-Bash: I don’t know, it it, it feels like they know about us. It doesn’t. I, I think back to Kalindi e who was a proponent of the 20 plus dried gram experience, and I had the opportunity to spend a bit of time with him [00:32:00] talking to him. And I’ve, I’ve never got close, you know, never that, that level is, I think, you know, from speaking to Clin, it’s a whole different kind of level and not in any, as he said, kind of pissing contest where it’s just recognizing that if you are putting more fuel in the rocket, then you’re gonna go further into space.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um.
Oli Genn-Bash: And from speaking to people like him and from my own experiences and, and having this kind of familiarity and having this sense of, you know, I, I had on an experience probably clo close to about four dry grams of Liberty caps, which are, um, really interesting. But, you know, outta all the, the different mushrooms I’ve, uh, had experiences with and different psychedelics, I’ve not really had any extraterrestrial [00:33:00] experiences other than with Liberty caps.
Oli Genn-Bash: And it always feels like this sense of them saying, oh, welcome back. We’ve, you know, we’ve waited for you. So then there’s a feeling. And my response to that is this profound sense of, okay, right. This isn’t just my imagination. This is, this is something happening. This is something going on. This is some core thing that they are here to, to, I don’t wanna use the word progress.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, that can be a dangerous kind of path. Go down, talking about progressing and that kind of means that there’s a place that we are meant to get to. But I think what they can do, and I think they are, it does seem they are integral to[00:34:00]
Oli Genn-Bash: helping us to undo a lot of the really difficult experiences that humans have gone through. It’s kind of insane being a human, you know? Um, I don’t want to say we’ve got it worse than animals because we mess up the world and we kill a lot of animals. Um. But we just have all this stuff going on. You know, you are sat in front of a bookshelf, I’ve got a microphone here and a cup of tea.
Oli Genn-Bash: It’s like all these different crazy levels of experience and, and so I think it can be, you know, this intense, uh, time being a human. So maybe the mushrooms know about that and maybe they’re, you know, I’ve, I’ve really had these experiences quite consistently where it feels very soothing and it really just feels like I’m getting these messages of,[00:35:00]
Oli Genn-Bash: you know, we are here, don’t worry, you know, we’re sorry, but you are, you are, you’ve gone through this. And, and, and when I say that, it’s often felt in a collective sense. It’s not necessarily always about me, even though it is about me. But then it’s this understanding of, you know, we are all this one thing and the mushrooms are here saying, yeah.
Oli Genn-Bash: We get that, we get that you are the individual, we get that you are the collective and we’ve got you.
Joe Moore: Hmm. I love that. Thank you for going far out with me. Um, no worries. Not always comfortable doing it in public. Um, but I think it’s important to like kind of discuss this stuff and say, Hey everybody, like we’ve had a lot of experiences or a handful of experiences and we’ve been studying this stuff for a while, and we come back sometimes with interesting perspectives that are gonna challenge you a little bit.
Joe Moore: Certainly challenge us landing [00:36:00] here. Mm-hmm. But, you know, um, yeah. So a lot of people are mushroom curious but intimidated. What’s your kind of like gentle onboarding approach in any of the areas of ology?
Oli Genn-Bash: The first thing I always want to say is that not to be afraid that mushrooms are, mushrooms are poisonous.
Oli Genn-Bash: It’s like, yes, some mushrooms are poisonous. I think in, in the UK especially, we have a lot of microbia. I think that probably came out of the Victorian era. We, and, and also witches. Uh, and that whole thing has a big, you know, the, the toad stool has a big part to play in that where, you know, I won’t go down the AM route, but everyone for the most part kind of thinks like, oh, I won’t, won’t touch Amita ’cause it’s toxic.
Oli Genn-Bash: And then, you know, you have the minority of people that are progressing the microdosing route with Amita, you know, quite successfully, I [00:37:00] think. Um, so that has, I
Joe Moore: blowing up in uk similar to it is here,
Oli Genn-Bash: not similarly in terms of the products. We don’t have that same kind of freedom. But certainly in terms of the more people are talking about it, there’s more events happening.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I’ve seen some people with products that are starting to enter the space in a kind of grayish area, um, where it’s not being recommended for human consumption. But, um, yeah, there’s certainly a lot more talk about it and, and people I know personally that are real fans of it.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, and I’ve, you know, I’ve personally as well had had an interesting time, um, with the microdosing. It’s, it’s quite interesting. Um, obviously very different to microdosing, uh, [00:38:00] psilocybin mushrooms.
Joe Moore: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s a, it’s an interesting one. It’s, it’s kind of gentle, but yeah, you’re right. Like this idea that all mushrooms are toxic is pervasive in a lot of areas and we should be afraid of them.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, I think that’s, you know. That’s a classic one to smush, do you, do you then start kind of saying like, Hey, look at these pretty ones or look at these ones that you could eat in a salad or with spaghetti or something or how do you like to to go from there
Oli Genn-Bash: often? I think predominantly people are getting interested in lions mane for the cognitive benefits.
Oli Genn-Bash: I dunno if it’s the same in the US but in the UK I think COVID and um, just generally people are feeling a bit of malaise, a bit of disconnection [00:39:00] and maybe feeling overworked, quite tired. So often I’ll see Lion’s mane is, um, the mushroom, which is going outta stock the most in health food shops and that’s quite a good one because it’s really tasty as culinary mushroom.
Oli Genn-Bash: So. Now we’re starting to see Lion’s Mae being sold in the supermarkets, uh, next to the shiitake and oyster mushrooms and the butter mushrooms. People are starting to get on board with it, and then I can say to them, Hey, you know, it’s great eating the lion’s Mae mushroom as a steak, but if you extract it with hot water, if you do extract it with hot water and alcohol, you might be able to get some more benefits out of it.
Oli Genn-Bash: And eating it as well is, is really good for you.
Joe Moore: So I see on your Instagram you have this post here. Um, this is from a while [00:40:00] ago, back in early August, I think, uh, could mushrooms actually help replace alcohol? Like, one of my kind of projects is how do we, how do we erode the market share consumption levels of alcohol a bit. I think Denver recently was rated this number two most heavy drinking city.
Joe Moore: In the United States. And, you know, I don’t, I don’t know if that’s accurate, but you know, that’s what I read yesterday on some website. And I, I think like, um, it’s, it’s harmed me and it’s harmed people around me, um, for a long time. And I, you know, I, what does a healthier culture look like? So obviously looking to alternatives is interesting.
Joe Moore: So, yeah. What, where did you land on this post? Maybe, you know what post I’m talking about here?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s difficult because drinking culture is so heavily embedded in, in the UK even, you know, in, in all different areas. Um, even in the psychedelic culture, the wellness [00:41:00] cultures, people aren’t necessarily not drinking alcohol.
Oli Genn-Bash: I’m starting to see a growing trend where people are, um, reducing their alcohol intake or. You know, I am coming up to three years of, of not drinking any alcohol. And that was, that was mainly because I, I play in a, a psychedelic rock band and there’s just a lot of alcohol around it at gigs. And it got to the point where I never really drank that much, especially at university.
Oli Genn-Bash: My first few years of university exploring mushrooms, I just didn’t really care, you know, and other things like, uh, LSD in particular, I was just not really interested in alcohol. And then I, in my mid twenties, lived in Australia for a year and accessing psychedelics in general. [00:42:00] Um, I wasn’t, you know, uh, I was just backpacking and it was like, whatever it was that, that sort of culture.
Oli Genn-Bash: So I, I got into drinking and then playing in a band. It was just becoming too regular and I just needed to nip it in the bud and, and through, you know, consuming a few different protocols with, uh, plant medicine, not actually, well I was consuming functional mushrooms at the time. Um, and then really I started down the, the route of quadriceps for treating fibromyalgia.
Oli Genn-Bash: And when I started to increase the doses, because I was dealing with a lot of fatigue and quadriceps is amazing for managing fatigue, but I was finding that I needed to use quite high doses. But in using those high doses, my mood was just being really [00:43:00] elevated. So in as much as there was the physical aspect, I was just.
Oli Genn-Bash: Feeling great. And I was also combining it with a lot of cacao. So I was getting, I think that dual effect from the cacao and the quadriceps. And interestingly, I’ve spoken to people who’ve researched quadriceps and they said there’s a relationship to cords and the heart chakra. So thinking about cacao as well, perhaps there’s that real synergy which might be, uh, a bit untapped.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I personally find if I am, you know, I’ve been at social events where I’ve been, yeah, consuming high dose of quadriceps and lines main, and I just feel really switched on. I just feel lively. I don’t feel anxious, I don’t feel fatigued. And I think that’s a big thing for me. What I found as well, with other people with long-term health conditions, they can find it [00:44:00] hard in social situations.
Oli Genn-Bash: Mainly because it’s like, okay, there might not be somewhere for them to sit. All right? If they do go and sit, okay, well, they’re not involved in the situation, so then they’re standing up and then they might feel a bit tired. So I think that’s why microdosing is quite good in these situations. And then as well with the functional mushrooms, I find if I’m consuming, yeah, as I said, high doses of lion’s mane quadriceps.
Oli Genn-Bash: With something like cacao, I am generally feeling pretty good. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m not getting those dips in my mood or my energy, and especially for social anxiety. I just think it’s great. I think quadriceps is a really undertapped one. It, it’s, it’s good for, you know, it’s traditionally recommended for libido.
Oli Genn-Bash: Okay. So I think what that means is it’s like, it makes you feel more comfortable in yourself and more confident in [00:45:00] yourself, and. Able to engage more and you are naturally more engaging. You are, you, you might just be carrying yourself differently. Your body language might be a different, a bit different.
Oli Genn-Bash: So I think these, these mushrooms are really untapped. I do think we need to use quite high doses. I do think there’s a lot of, I dunno about a lot, but there’s some interesting work being done, especially in the us Um, there’s a brand called Arian. They’re doing interesting work with looking at bioavailability and looking at, okay, can we use things like liposomal encapsulation to help the body to recognize the compounds within the mushrooms better?
Oli Genn-Bash: And, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of opinion that’s divided. People saying, look, you just need to consume these mushrooms in a more traditional way. [00:46:00] But I think the more work that’s being done with them will start to be able to really utilize the benefits. And then we’ll start to see, okay, actually, um, I’m really noticing the effects of certain products and, and the changes in my mood, changes in my energy.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I think as people start to move away from alcohol more towards psychedelics, other supplements, um, you know, I think things like Maca, it’s absolutely amazing. It’s not spoken about enough. It’s one of my favorite supplements. Um, so I think, yeah, these, these kinds of things can help replace alcohol.
Oli Genn-Bash: ’cause people are starting to realize, you know what, actually, the more we start to engage with the world, the more we start to pursue things which really interest us. We realize that actually alcohol is, you know. It really does hinder things. You know, I, I dunno how [00:47:00] people do it. Like, I, I dunno if I had a thing where I don’t process alcohol properly, but I would start to feel hungover before the night was over.
Oli Genn-Bash: Mm. So then I would just be like, ah, it’s just not, you know, I would, I would try and do it, try and keep up, but I would never get to the point of being drunk. I would just be consistently, you know, when I lived in Australia, I think for kind of three months, more or less, every night I was having a couple of beers smoking a joint after work, I would never get drunk because I would just not, if I got to that point, it would just be awful.
Oli Genn-Bash: And when I was younger, you know, every time when I got drunk, it was just always just, you know, awful experience.
Joe Moore: Well, thanks for all that I. I really hope we can flesh that out a little better and, um, I, [00:48:00] yeah. Hopefully save people money both on the front end and the back end from alcohol. Um, yeah, and also I just mm-hmm. Please, just, just,
Oli Genn-Bash: just to add to that is like, okay, if there are psychedelic events, you know, I was, I was at a psychedelic event where someone from the US said, wow, you know, I didn’t realize British psychedelic people like alcohol so much.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I just said, look, British people in general really like alcohol. And I think there is something to be said for that. It’s like, okay, if, if we are engaging in events where there might be sensitivities there where people might have had addictions, we need to be quite careful about okay, after parties where there is lots of booze going around, or just events in general where there’s like booze in sight where people are being quite conscious now and they’re utilizing psychedelics to overcome difficult experiences with things like.
Joe Moore: Right. Um, [00:49:00] I was, yeah, I was at a, like, I don’t even know if you can call it an after event, I guess it was, but yeah, a bunch of us went to a pub and the amount of drinking was, was staggering. And I was like, wow, amazing. And, uh, yeah, I think, um, you know, I used to drink a ton, right? Like I, I, you know, used to have not a great relationship to it.
Joe Moore: Um, it’s faded, thank goodness. Never really needed treatment other than, you know, maybe the accidental overdose on mushrooms once in a while. But, uh, you know, um. I think you’re right. Like being aware of who’s at these conferences and being kind of substance aware is, is really helpful. Like do, do you have good alternatives?
Joe Moore: Do you, do you maybe keep the alcohol off to the side so people don’t necessarily see it as much? Or, you know, what, what is the way to be, um, to do hospitality in a way that that feels good for you at the end of the day [00:50:00] and, you know, help somebody not drink if they didn’t wanna drink?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah, I think we’re, we’re starting to see more in these areas where it, it’s really great to see festivals in the UK that are alcohol free.
Oli Genn-Bash: I think there is the, the slight caveat there is like, from a musician’s perspective, uh, the, the music festivals kind of have to sell alcohol because if they don’t, then, you know, the, the industry is so tight. The festival industry in, in general is so tight that if you don’t sell alcohol it, your festival might collapse because actually ticket sales aren’t enough to help it survive.
Oli Genn-Bash: So there is some sense of, uh, allowances there to not sell alcohol out. Some of these more smaller, psychedelic focused, [00:51:00] wellness focused events in places like the uk having said that is really good to see certain companies, you know, in, in the mushroom space in particular, and I think in the adaptogenic space and tropic space that are producing products which are really helping people.
Oli Genn-Bash: And I think it’s, it’s amazing to see just more products and a lot of innovation and a lot of interest in different herbs and mushrooms and a lot of conversation about. Different ways in which people can really benefit from these things. There’s brilliant people in the uk like the Seed Sisters, la the Plant Scientist, um, and just a general good sense of herbalism, uh, in this country where people are connecting back to the land, connecting back to these kind of ancient roots, realizing, and also, you know, I think it’s different culturally in, in different [00:52:00] spaces.
Oli Genn-Bash: I don’t think the UK will ever move away from alcohol. I, I still think there’s a lot of that embedded even in the kind of psychedelic, pagan, hippie folk culture. Um, that will never go away. But I think people will start to u utilize alcohol and other things in a more conscious way.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, agreed. I, I just, yeah, in its right measure, um, is where I hope it heads.
Joe Moore: Um, so some stuff we didn’t really get into yet is this kind of future of mushrooms around kind of things like bioremediation, different kinds of, um, higher tech materials, like buildings using, um, kind of bricks made from mushrooms. Like, where do you think we’re gonna see mushrooms be in the next 10 years?
Oli Genn-Bash: I mean, we’re starting to [00:53:00] see a lot more happening in terms of material, clothing, fashion. I think it’s, it’s interesting to see where they, you know, it’s, it is interesting. We’ve got this whole thing of fast fashion and then mushrooms are coming in and there my CA way to slow things down and they’re like, no, no slow fashion.
Oli Genn-Bash: So that’s really interesting. I think we might start to. We establish our relationship with clothes and this idea of just kind of throwaway culture. Um, certainly regenerative areas where mushrooms are really fascinating. If you look at Michal Fungi in helping to fix the soil, and it becomes difficult not to just evangelize about mushrooms because it does seem like there’s all these different areas.
Oli Genn-Bash: You know, we’re seeing it with food, with Myprotein, we’re seeing it with medicine, uh, wellness products. So [00:54:00] it could be, you know, there’s, there’s people like Mark Olo from Myco Stories, Dennis Walker from Micropreneur. They gave a presentation last year at All Things Fungi Festival, where they were looking at the future of fungi.
Oli Genn-Bash: And it, it kind of seemed like, uh, you know, you’d be waking up into this. Fungal futuristic environment where everything would be fungi. Uh, I dunno how far away we are from that. I don’t know if we’re a long way from convincing people to eat things like myprotein, if you know the building material. I think it’s interesting.
Oli Genn-Bash: It’s like, okay, we can build things from mushrooms. Will it keep up with the needs of, um, society? Is it, is it something which is coming in at the right time to actually help steer us in the right direction? You know, I’ve seen [00:55:00] positive things if we look at like hemp, um, that can have uses, but then does it actually stand up to kind of this increasingly demanding society that we’re in?
Oli Genn-Bash: So I think we need to have balance, but, um, yeah, there’s a, there’s a lot of interesting innovations. Happening with, um, I think I saw someone creating a mushroom canoe. So, um, you know, there’s like different ways in which you can use it for building material, for, for all different kinds of things. Um, I think the, going back to my thoughts about psychedelic mushrooms, it does kind of seem like they are here at the right time to kind of clean things up and perhaps get us back to a state of, of balance.
Oli Genn-Bash: So if, if we, if we think more in terms of, you know, perhaps can we, can we try and apply every situation as radical as that might [00:56:00] be? Can we try and apply it with a psychological lens? If we, if we look at what’s going on, can we, can we think, okay, what would a mushroom do? How would a mushroom think in this situation?
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, that might require some. Uh, shifting. I don’t think in sort of, you know, like paradigm shift, I just think possibly in a more, maybe in a more metaphysical way, in an animistic sense, okay, let’s step away from this human way of doing things. Not in a radical sense of like, humans are bad humans, parasites.
Oli Genn-Bash: I just think, okay, we are one of many creatures. We are the dominant ones, but can we just kind of step our, you know, take our foot off the gas for a little bit? Because it’s quite clear things are out of [00:57:00] balance and people aren’t necessarily having a great time. I mean, I’m sure people with lots and lots of money are, I don’t know, I don’t even know if they’re having a good time.
Oli Genn-Bash: I think they’re just addicted to making lots of money. I think, you know, it’s like, don’t get me wrong, I have amazing relationships with people and wonderful unitive experiences. I think people at the moment in general find the world quite difficult. And I think we are looking for different ways to make things a bit easier for, for everyone and all beings on this planet.
Oli Genn-Bash: Where can we just come together in a sense? And again, this, you know, slow down. Um, there’s a saying, I think from Bio Aku Lafe, it says something like, the times are urgent, we must slow down. There’s like, okay, can we utilize this mycelial thinking? It is quite slow, you know, whenever [00:58:00] anyone speaks to me about cultivation and, um.
Oli Genn-Bash: Working with people like Darren LeBaron. You know, he always says this whenever anyone anyone asks him, uh, you know, how long will it take for the mycelium to colonize? It’s just like, well, it will, it will take as long as it takes. And actually, when you get into that mindset, then it becomes you, you do start to shift.
Oli Genn-Bash: You do think, okay, what are the ways in which we can, I guess my cate our thoughts? And, and maybe that is all happening. Maybe it is, okay, if you are consuming a lot of psychedelic mushrooms or functional mushrooms and there is things happening with your gut bacteria and your DNA and your neuroplasticity, then that’s gonna have a big effect on the way in which you engage with the world and, and what you think might be possible.
Oli Genn-Bash: So I do [00:59:00] think it’s fascinating just to see. I think there’s a, there’s a lot of money going into, um, you know, from, from quite big players going into this space. Um, uh, and people have really tracked this area to, um, see where the different innovation is. And I, I, you know, I’m surprised that, that people are, are able to just kind of track it so, well, you know, people like myo stories.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, you know, when I look on LinkedIn, it’s just like, there’s always something going on. So I think it’s quite exciting and I think it is helping us to potentially reimagine things.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and then Darren lab line, I’m just thinking about growing bags. Out and I losing my mind. I’m like six weeks in and I don’t see anything.
Joe Moore: And then it works out fine. Sometimes, sometimes, other times it’s a little ugly. [01:00:00] But yeah, like just, it takes what it takes and you can be in the perfect environment and have the perfect lab and be replicable, but most of us do it in our, in our homes. And it’s not a laboratory environment, a well controlled laboratory environment at all.
Joe Moore: Mobile continuation units. And all
Oli Genn-Bash: the, the funny thing was I, when I was, uh, cultivating during the pandemic, it was just quite funny because I was like, in this, in this shop picking up like disinfectant and gloves and masks and all this stuff. And I was just like, oh yeah, the poor pandemic’s really bad.
Oli Genn-Bash: And then going home, sanitizing my, my kitchen counter and setting up my sort of lab environment and.
Joe Moore: I never had the pandemic as an excuse. That’s lovely. Yeah, I had just deep paranoia at the store. Ah. Um, um, and then, so finally here as we kind of work towards [01:01:00] wrapping up, like what, what kind of things do you think the psychedelic movement could learn from mushrooms generally from like an ecological perspective or growth perspective or, or anything like that?
Joe Moore: Like, I, I know, you know, the psychedelic culture is, is often just an outgrowth of kind of, um, primary dominator culture, kind of what, you know, mechanical dominator culture. But what, what can we learn from mushrooms as, you know, a species?
Oli Genn-Bash: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s fascinating to see the psychedelic culture go the way it has.
Oli Genn-Bash: I don’t know. How much to this extent I kind of expected, or me and other people expected it to be. So, uh, dominantly capitalistic and, and huge amounts of money coming in from people like Christian Meyer and Peter Thiel, who I just won’t, you know, that’s the whole, and that’s a whole podcast, [01:02:00] uh, thing that I, you know, and, and the way in which we engage with psychedelics on a personal level and a collective level.
Oli Genn-Bash: Um, it does really matter. And I think with mushrooms, you know, for me, they, they kick my ass. That’s what I say to everyone all the time. It’s like, I am always, you know, and I’ve had quite a lot of experience with them, and I’m always going in with a bit of trepidation because I’m always just like, okay, there’ll be some kind of as kicking, there’ll be some kind of.
Oli Genn-Bash: Download. And I do think that, you know, I’ve had quite intense experiences with them. Not necessarily scary or, or difficult, negative, but just like, okay, you know, uh, sort of getting something like a telling off from a collective humanity experience where they’re just like, Hmm, sorry guys. You fucked up.
Oli Genn-Bash: You, [01:03:00] you know, you’ve just extracted you, you haven’t actually respected this amazing planet that you’re on. Which, which might be, I think, and I’m reading stuff in, uh, physics saying we like might be in this void, this planetary void. You know? It’s like, okay, so there’s, there’s nothing around us. Um, and we might be in a, in this really special zone and, and this place that.
Oli Genn-Bash: We really need to respect and like, however we’ve got here, whether it’s been fungal, panspermia, you know, there’s, there’s a reason why we’ve come here from wherever we’ve come from, however we originated here. So I think the mushrooms in getting everything going in, in being these primary decomposers, as Darren LeBaron says, getting the party started, you know, they, they come along where there’s just not things happening [01:04:00] and they start to break things down and life comes along and they do so much and, and without them, you know, I don’t want to overplay kind of like the Grand Mycelial network, but it does seem there’s a lot of these certainly localized areas in, in large parts of, of Forest where there’s these huge networks that are having these symbiotic relationships with trees.
Oli Genn-Bash: You know, there is parasitic stuff happening. You know, we, we can learn from that as well. We can understand, okay, where we might be parasitic and where to, where to kind of check that and guard against that and, and where it might not be useful and, and engage more with these symbiotic relationships and win-win scenarios where, why not everyone benefit?
Oli Genn-Bash: Why does it just have to be [01:05:00] billionaires, increasing share prices And, um, people just kind of feeling like, okay, well maybe I can’t access that type of healing that I, I might desperately need. How do I do that? Okay. Uh, and that might create more difficulty. So then with the. I guess getting back to these ideas of kind of natural, okay, how do we work with situations?
Oli Genn-Bash: What we’ve got to create situations where in general, kind of everyone can benefit in, in situations where possible. It’s like I’m not an idealist, I don’t think, I try and not think in these utopian terms I said in terms of progression, but it’s actually okay, what have we got now? What can we learn from different ways [01:06:00] of utilizing resources more efficiently?
Oli Genn-Bash: And um, creating systems where people can benefit economically from growing mushrooms or creating mushroom products. And so I think mushrooms do open up a lot of different possibilities.
Joe Moore: Wholeheartedly agree. They do. Yeah. Um, Americans that wanna learn more, it’s a really cool organization called ERs here in the us um, that’s doing some really cool stuff around this, um, bio.
Joe Moore: Um, what else is interesting? Oh, there’s just so many interesting people doing interesting stuff, uh, around mushrooms. So just learn, learn what you can. If you wanna grow, grow, if you wanna have some really amazing innovation, go for it. It’d be really fun to have it. Yeah. So Ali, thank you so much for being on the show.
Joe Moore: Where can people find your work online?
Oli Genn-Bash: Thank you, Joe. Uh, you can find [01:07:00] me at thefungiconsultant.com. Email me at oli@thefungiconsultant.com Check me out on LinkedIn and Instagram as well at the Fungi Consultant and at Oli Ash.
Joe Moore: Right on Oli. Thank you so much and hope to do it again in the future.
Joe Moore: Thank you so much, Joe. Appreciate it. Absolutely.
By Anne Hamilton, JD, MA
When people talk about psychedelic therapy, the focus usually stays on depression, trauma, or neuroplasticity. These conversations matter, but they rarely touch the existential fear that defines the lives of people facing life-threatening illness. I write this not only as an attorney and psychedelic nonprofit executive director, but as someone who has lived this terrain myself as a cancer survivor.
I was raised Catholic and grew up with a respect for ritual and mystery, even when filtered through institutions. My early life followed a logical sequence. I studied at Notre Dame, earned a master’s degree at Stanford, graduated from Yale Law School, and clerked for a federal judge on the Ninth Circuit. My identity was built around structure and reasoning. Then, at thirty-five, I was diagnosed with Stage 3C breast cancer. I survived surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation. From the outside, it looked like I had “won.”
In reality, surviving was the beginning of a psychological unraveling no one prepared me for.
Many survivors describe the same aftershock: fear of recurrence, dissociation, the loss of desire or identity, the sense that the body returned from battle but the self remained out of reach. Medicine treats the tumor but rarely the terror.
Women, in particular, often arrive at survivorship with a long history of being dismissed or minimized in clinical settings. These patterns do not disappear when they enter healing spaces, including psychedelic ones.
I tried everything that was available: therapy, SSRIs, meditation, exercise, support groups. Nothing reached the core. It was a carefully supported psilocybin session that allowed me to face mortality without collapsing under it. For the first time after treatment, I felt meaning return. I felt myself return.
That experience aligned with what researchers had already begun demonstrating. In the Johns Hopkins trial, people with life-threatening cancer experienced substantial and sustained reductions in depression and anxiety after a single psilocybin session.
The NYU team found similar long-term improvements in cancer-related distress.
Recent reviews in Cancers and JAMA Oncology continue to build on this evidence. Early work on psilocybin-enhanced group psychotherapy is beginning to mirror what many survivor communities report anecdotally.
Psycho-oncology has also shifted toward meaning-centered interventions, grounded in Viktor Frankl, which have improved spiritual well-being in both advanced cancer and survivors after treatment. Across these threads is a clear throughline: survivors need help with meaning, identity, belonging, and mortality.
In 2023, I looked around and saw that no one was building the kind of space survivors actually needed. Research was happening in universities. Retreats were happening abroad. But there was no survivor-centered ecosystem that brought safety, legality, lineage, and long-term integration together. Nothing grounded in lived experience.
So a small group of us, all survivors ourselves, did what survivors have always done. We created what we needed. Initially, we came together simply to help a friend. What began as an act of care has grown into a movement. Survivors are shaping the model. Peer leadership is emerging. Cultural lineages are being honored in ways that go beyond performance. And participants are demonstrating, over and over, that meaning and presence can return after years of shutdown.
Many psychedelic settings unintentionally recreate the same unhealthy power dynamics survivors already face in medicine. Work with people living with cancer and serious illness requires humility and real caution. Yet a pattern appears again and again: someone has a profound psychedelic experience and suddenly believes they are “called” to offer it to others, as though insight alone qualifies them to hold profoundly vulnerable people.
This is not care. It is ego. And for those navigating illness — women and men, and especially young women — it can feel unsafe.
Survivors do not need to be managed, molded, or guided by someone else’s revelations. We do not need facilitators, clinicians, or doctors whose personal awakening becomes the organizing force of the space. And we especially do not need well-meaning newcomers positioning themselves as leaders in a field they have not yet contributed to or been shaped by.
What we need is to be trusted. To be listened to. To be in environments built around our boundaries, our wisdom, and our lived reality.
Across survivor communities, several themes appear consistently:
These are not programmatic features. They are patterns emerging across the field as survivors articulate what safety and belonging actually mean.
Across research settings, regulated centers, and community programs, similar shifts are beginning to appear. Survivors describe a return of presence after years of numbness. Some rediscover humor. Some reconnect with partners or children. One young mother with metastatic disease told us her experience “gave me the strength to live with metastatic breast cancer.” Another participant laughed in her sleep for weeks afterward.
The demand reflects this reality. Survivorship Collective now has a waitlist of more than one hundred people. We are running twelve retreats next year and expanding to as many as thirty in 2027. All of this has happened entirely through word of mouth. We do not advertise. People come because of our reputation, our ethics, and because the need is enormous.
The stories are powerful, but they also highlight the need for ongoing rigor, thoughtful pacing, and humility as this work expands. Scaling survivor-informed care will take time. It raises questions about access, cost, training, and cultural accountability. These challenges are real, and acknowledging them makes the work stronger, not weaker.
If psychedelic care is to meet the needs of people living with serious illness, we will need ecosystems rather than isolated interventions. Survivors benefit when research and ritual collaborate. When clinical knowledge and cultural lineage inform one another. When community holds the work long after the session ends.
Healing after serious illness is not a single moment. It is a long return.
I am grateful to Psychedelics Today for making space for this conversation. If you are a survivor, clinician, facilitator, researcher, caregiver, or someone who has walked this terrain yourself, I hope this piece opens a path for further dialogue.
The future of psychedelic care for serious illness will not be built by one group or one perspective, but by a community willing to listen, adapt, and keep survivors at the center.
Learn more at survivorshipcollective.com.
In this episode, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Jason Konner, a longtime oncologist who recently left his full-time clinical role at Memorial Sloan Kettering to devote himself to the emerging intersection of cancer care and psychedelics.
Dr Konner shares how, after more than two decades treating people, he hit a wall. The accumulated grief, constant exposure to death, and intensity of oncology left him deeply burned out, though he didn’t have that language for it at the time. A chance moment in a yoga class, overhearing someone say “ayahuasca retreat” just before he was scheduled for hernia surgery, became the turning point. Within a week, he was in the jungle.
That first week with ayahuasca, followed later by work with mushrooms, “absolutely transformed” his life. His fear of death lifted. The burnout he hadn’t even recognized in himself was both revealed and relieved. When he returned to his practice, Konner describes feeling like he suddenly had a “superpower”: he could stay present, connected, and compassionate with patients facing advanced disease without collapsing under the emotional weight.
He and Joe explore what this third path looks like: not the classic binary between either hardening and distancing as self-protection, or staying open-hearted and getting shattered. Instead, psychedelics helped him hold deep relationship with patients and families while maintaining inner stability and meaning. This opened space for authentic conversations about spirituality, fear, grief, and what it means to live with (or die from) cancer.
From there, Dr Konner zooms out to critique the broader oncology system:
Joe and Jason then dig into psychedelics and oncology as a frontier: easing existential distress in patients with terminal cancer, the neglected suffering of caregivers, the potential role of psychedelics in helping people relate differently to death, and what it might mean for ICU use, aggressive end-of-life interventions, and overall healthcare costs if more people could make decisions from a place of peace rather than terror.
Dr Konner also shares a striking ovarian cancer case that hinted at powerful immune changes after shamanic work, and why he believes we need new research paradigms that can honor the integrity of retreat and ceremonial settings while still learning from them.
Finally, he talks about his early-stage project, Psychedelic Oncology, and his hope that the first wave of change starts with clinicians themselves becoming more psychedelic-literate—and, where appropriate, doing their own inner work—so better options can eventually reach the people who need them most.
Learn more – https://psychedeliconcology.com/
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Oh, there we are live. Hi, Jason Connor is joining us today at psychedelics today. Jason, how you doing today?
Dr Jason Konner: Nice to see you, Joe. I’m doing good.
Joe Moore: Good. I am happy to be connected with you. We got connected through the upcoming, um, conference at Penn that, uh, everybody should check out and, uh, your name popped out at me and, you know, not, it’s not often I see people affiliated with oncology involved in psychedelics.
I know of maybe one, uh, in vivo trial. Um, and you know, that’s it. So really excited to dig into your work and, uh, happy to learn about you. How do you, what are, what are you up to now? What’s your kind of, are you in practice anywhere in particular?
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, I, I recently actually left my clinical practice. Um, I was at Sloan Kettering for about 24 years.
Uh, until August where I [00:01:00] transitioned to a consultant role so that I can commit myself full-time to working, uh, in this, in this area. That’s outstanding.
Joe Moore: And you were a full-time oncologist for how long?
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, for, I, I came to Sloan Kettering in 2001 as a fellow shortly before nine 11. Uh, I did my fellowship and stayed on, uh, and became full faculty and, um, was there for over 20 years.
Outstanding.
Joe Moore: And how, how did psychedelics come on your radar of something, as something of interest?
Dr Jason Konner: Well, I. I would say the, you know, my first introduction to them was just a friend who had recommended I read Michael Pollan’s book. Mm-hmm. I think like so many others. Um, you know, and I read the book and I said, Hey, this, this actually sounds really interesting.
I didn’t know any of the [00:02:00] information that was presented in there. Mm-hmm. Uh, for me it was just another drug. I was a pretty straight, straight guy for most of my life, uh, and really had no, no understanding of what psychedelics were.
Joe Moore: Mm mm That’s interesting.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. Yeah. And it piqued my interest, but from my vantage point, I had no idea, you know, if, how or when I would ever have an experience or, or what that would look like.
Joe Moore: So
Dr Jason Konner: nothing really happened. Um, and then I had an experience, um, where my, my, you know, my dad passed away and, uh, witnessing his process. Uh, witnessing him having hallucinations, which he actually told me were the only easeful part of his journey, actually, a, a light sort of pinged on when I heard that. And, and, and he really got very connected with love.
He really just had an [00:03:00] amazing, um, journey of his own, just the dying process. Um, and, and after thinking about that experience and that, you know, in some way an altered, altered state of consciousness gave him a sense of peace, uh, that, that’s really the extent of my understanding of things That really piqued my interest.
And I reached out to some of the people at my hospital saying, Hey, you know, we should, we should study this. Uh, and, and I didn’t get, uh, much support around that. And so not much happened. Mm-hmm. Life went on. You know, being an oncologist is not easy. Comes with, uh, a lot of challenges, not just in how demanding it is and it’s extremely demanding, but in what we witness, you know, we witness some extremely difficult things.
Uh, and we, we, we walk a stride patients for many years and, uh, they go through just incredible hardship and, and often, [00:04:00] uh, will, will die of their disease. And, you know, we have very little support or training or understanding about what sort of personal work, uh, is required in order to be able to do that work, uh, and be supportive for patients and also be supportive for ourselves.
Um, and so that’s sort of, you know, lurking in the background with you when you’re a medical oncologist. And then COVID came and COVID was really difficult for a lot of people in the medical field. Uh. That brought me to, uh, the end of 2022. I was, uh, pretty burnt out. I was sort of emotionally in a bad place.
I was spiraling. And, uh, I developed an inguinal hernia and, uh, I scheduled a hernia surgery. And, uh, I actually took two weeks off of work for this hernia surgery. And as it was coming, you know, and they [00:05:00] said, oh, you’re gonna need to not do yoga for six weeks. And, uh, you know, you won’t be able to exercise.
And the days were getting dark. And it occurred to me I hadn’t taken two weeks off in, over a decade, and I really wanted to do something for myself. And I, I had no idea what to do. I was too dysphoric to plan a vacation. And a week, a week before my surgery, I was in a yoga class and I, I overheard a woman, you know, just a snippet of a conversation.
I just heard a woman say. Uh, ayahuasca retreat.
Joe Moore: Mm.
Dr Jason Konner: And I, I didn’t know quite what that was, but something just immediately shifted in me, you know, whatever darkness I was going through just lifted right away. Just hearing that I immediately knew that’s what I, uh, needed to do. Uh, and, and I literally went home and googled Ayahuasca retreat.
Uh, and the first thing that came up had, you know, 12,005 star reviews and I called them up and a week later I was in the jungle and [00:06:00] I kinda slipped through a portal there. And, um, you know, that was three years ago. And it, it, it, it absolutely, you know, transformed my life in, in some pretty massive, uh, pretty massive ways.
Um. You know, I had no idea what ayahuasca was or you know, what this was all about. But the week was just really transformative. I had some incredible high, some extremely difficult, challenging, uh, experiences, uh, and everything in between and, um, you know, really opened me up. Um, and, uh, after that I, I, you know, I, I, I did another retreat with mushrooms and, and, and really never looked back after that.
And
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Dr Jason Konner: I realized that first year, uh, working as a medical oncologist was just extraordinary. Uh, I really felt like I had a superpower. I was really able to show up for [00:07:00] my work in a way that I, I had never been able to do before. Uh, first off, my, my burnout had been both identified and, and lifted. And I say identified because I didn’t even know I was burned out.
I was miserable and didn’t understand why and described it to so many other things in my life. But the experience with the ayahuasca, um, really showed me exactly what was going on, and I understood things on a much deeper level. Uh, and, and in addition, I had, you know, a pretty profound fear of death prior to that.
Uh, and that was gone. Um, after my experience, which just is incredible, I never could have really imagined that. I think as oncologists so often we come into the profession because we see cancer and death as a bad thing. And, uh, we’re basically in there to sort ward it off or prevent it or, or push it As far you kick the can down the road as, as far as possible.
Uh, but we’re often [00:08:00] projecting our own fears, uh, into the room where with patients. Um, and suddenly, when, when, when that was resolved, uh, I was no longer doing that. And I, I think prior to my, my working with Ayahuasca, there seemed to be two options when you’re working with, with sick and dying patients, and one is to remain compassionate and, and connected and ultimately suffer, thes suffer the consequences, you know?
People cry in the bathrooms. They have bad dreams, they’re hurting, they, you know, they’re burned out. There’s all sorts of consequences to putting yourself out there like that. And the other option seem to be just keep patients at an arm’s distance as a form of self-protection. Uh, and, and that also doesn’t really serve anybody very well.
And I, I think with Ayahuasca, I saw a third path, uh, one where I could remain, uh, connected, compassionate, interested, present, [00:09:00] uh, and not suffer the consequences because I had this new perspective on basically everything, uh, that served me so well. And it was extraordinary. And, and I heard from patients just amazing feedback.
You know, there, the, there was the, the depth of my relationships was just, uh, just very evidently, uh, richer. Uh, and, you know, patients were, were really feeling connected and I was able to have. Discussions about spirituality with them in, in a genuine way. Uh, not, not preaching anything, but just being able to kind of understand where patients are at with, with some of their, um, more existential questions.
Where prior to all this, you know, I came prior to Ayahuasca, I was really an atheist, materialist, rationalist scientist. And, you know, if there’s not evidence for it, I’m not, I’m not buying it. Uh, and, and suddenly there was evidence for a lot. And so I was, I was able to really [00:10:00] genuinely have I, the, these sorts of, uh, conversations and connections with patients and bring up a lot of material that, that previously had not really been addressed.
And it was really deeply appreciated by patients. And, you know, it was amazing and I was just so grateful and, and it just absolutely changed my life. Um, but there was a deep call in me to do more, um, and to, uh. To share this in some way. I mean, how could I not, I just found this, this unbelievable, uh, type of healing.
Uh, and I’m surrounded by people who are really stuck in the muck, um, of, you know, going through cancer or, or supporting someone with cancer, uh, in the place of sort of the, of a narrow focus or of, of an EE egoic mind. I don’t mean that in a, in a state of self inflation, but, you know, in sort of a, a, a, a narrowed [00:11:00] a view of, of, of everything.
So I, I think the first year it was really, yes, this is amazing. I’m so grateful, I’m so happy I can do this like never before. And then the next year was just like, I can’t be the only one. I, I, I just can’t be the only one, you know? And, and I was able to, over time just. It was clear and clear to me that there’s a certain amount of, of, of, of suffering and grief and, and trauma and, and discomfort that’s going to come along with cancer.
I mean, cancer is horrible. There’s a certain amount of pain that that’s going to happen no matter what. But then there’s this layered suffering on top of that in terms of anxiety about the future and, and, you know, unfelt feelings, unresolved or unaddressed traumas. And there, there, there’s so much that can be addressed that we’re really not doing a good job as a, as a field of [00:12:00] addressing.
And so much of what we do is spending time with these things. And so it became eventually impossible for me to do what I was doing with a clear mind, uh, without, and knowing what I know of what is possible and not be able to find a way to help, uh. Offer that, or bring that or, or, or support people in, in finding, uh, you know, similar relief.
Joe Moore: Well, thank you. That was lovely. And what a journey. So, um, yeah, who said hernias weren’t a good thing?
Dr Jason Konner: I never got it fixed. I’m very grateful for it every day.
Joe Moore: So I, um, there’s so many threads to pick up on here. So you, you came out of school, they’re like, here, here you go. Here’s your patients you gotta work [00:13:00] with.
Help invest to the best of your ability. But, you know, through. Chemotherapies and other adjunctive therapies. Right. It’s not necessarily like, how do we make them feel good or at least a little better. Um, not like we really can necessarily, but you know, that’s kind of what chaplaincy is about. That’s what palliative care is kind of about.
And and you’re saying you didn’t really have those skills, right? Yeah. Like from training.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. And. I mean, I, I think some of the newer training programs give it a little bit more lip service and, and there’s a little more attention to it, but, you know, not nearly enough. Um, and, and I think I came to appreciate over the couple of decades that I’ve done this, but especially over the last couple of years, just how important the relational aspect is of our job as medical oncologist.
I mean, it is absolutely such a cornerstone of the healing process. Um, and, and I know that because my patients tell me this. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, we [00:14:00] work within a system that does not support, that does not reward, that does not give space for, that, does not give training for that. Uh, and it’s, it’s to everybody’s loss
Joe Moore: because
Dr Jason Konner: there’s so much that can be gained from that.
But, but so many docs don’t necessarily, not only is there not the time for that of support, but also the capacity. How do you show up as a, as a supportive doctor and. These systems that we have in place are really, really thin. And, and, and I don’t mean my hospital in particular. I mean the whole, the whole system.
I, I think sometimes you think you get a cancer diagnosis and suddenly there’s a psychiatrist and a social worker and a chaplain and all these people in your corner who are gonna be there. But it’s really not that easy. Um, a lot of people don’t have access to all these things and they don’t have time.
You know, very often people with cancer are working full-time jobs and mm-hmm. They have a really demanding schedule in their lives. It’s barely, [00:15:00] they’re barely able to keep up with what they need to do to stay alive. Um, and, you know, many people are not open to having a psychiatrist and many people go to a psychiatrist and don’t benefit from it because I think very often what happens is patients are diagnosed with a reactive depression, uh, and they’re given an SSRI.
It has marginal, if any, benefits because they’re not necessarily depressed. They’re, they’re, they’re struggling with meaning, they’re struggling with unlabeled trauma. They’re, they’re living with grief. There. There’s, there’s so much that this, the system does not even give lip service to. Um, that really, there’s so much potential for deep healing, uh, because these things are just lurking throughout the journey.
Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: And
Dr Jason Konner: also just the capacity to be present. You know, when you, [00:16:00] when you get a cancer diagnosis, and I’m a cancer survivor myself, and, you know, I can, I can speak to this personally, not only as a witness, but something changes. There’s a light switch that flicks on and suddenly there’s this uncertainty about the future.
And there’s, you know, these existential questions are just there. Am I gonna make it to next year? Am I going to grow old? Am I going to. You know, see this future that I once thought I was going to see. And um, you know, so often we say, okay, well, you know, you just gotta live in the present. But that’s a lot easier said than done for somebody, uh, who is living understandably in a really contracted state of fear and pain.
And it’s just, um, yeah. So we, as I was saying, very, very seldom do patient, are patients able to access these services. And when they do, they often don’t serve them. Um, you know, they go to support groups and those are invariably harmful. I’ve, I don’t know if I’ve ever met a patient Oh, really? [00:17:00] Harmed by going to a support group.
Yeah. Because what happens is, you know, they’re recently diagnosed. Really un looking for community. They’re looking for support. They don’t know where to find it. They’re looking for peers and they go to support group. And somebody who’s really way worse off than they are is there saying, yes, I was once like you, and this look at me now.
And it’s really awful. Um, and it’s, it’s traumatic. It’s traumatic. I, I, I stopped referring anybody to those after, after a while because it’s invariably, uh, just an awful thing. So, very often as medical oncologists, we are doing the work of the para, the, you know, that is normally ascribed to psychiatrists, chaplains, palliative care doctors.
This is our bread. That’s what we do. You know, we’re managing pain, we’re managing anxiety. We’re sometimes treating depression, um, you know, as best we can. And, and that’s where a lot of the relational aspect of this comes into [00:18:00] play too. I mean, if you’re, you’re doing this well, but. The way things are moving in medicine that, you know, most people who are hired are administrators.
And you know, most of what we do at this point is on the computer for the sake of billing and lawyers and our numbers are being crunched and our RVs are being measured. And, you know, it’s, it’s hard to really go in and, and give space for a patient to express themselves in a, in a meaningful way. And, and what patients are going through is just like horrific.
You know, we, we tell them, oh, you’ve got cancer. The C word, you know, carries a ton of weight. It’s really just like a very powerful energy. Oh. And you know, we’re going to, you know, take apart one of your major organs or, or, or parts of your sexual apparatus. We’re just gonna tear you open, push you back together, dump you with chemo, maybe radiate you and maybe you’ll live and maybe you won’t.
I mean, that’s like a lot at once. It’s a lot.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jason Konner: And so we’re, [00:19:00] we’re. The complexities of just the medical care are hard enough to keep up with. Um, because it’s, a lot of patients come in, they have multiple comorbidities, they’re on multiple medications, they have really complex diseases, and there’s a lot.
So it’s, it’s, um, it’s a difficult situation for, for, for patients, for families, for caregivers, um, for healthcare workers and for survivors. You know, so often when somebody is done with all this, you know, we say, oh, okay, you, you had your breast cancer, we took off the breast, we gave the chemo, we did the radiation.
Here’s some hormones. You’re done. You’re statistically gonna likely live. You know, and we, we mark it off as a success. But very often this is where a journey begins, you know, for a patient like, what the hell just happened? You know, what just happened? What happened to my [00:20:00] hair, my, my beauty, my nerve endings, my energy, my sexuality, my relationships, my job, my life.
And so, you know, the, the, and these are the survivors. Um, you know, so often, so, so there’s so many layers to this, so many layers. I could, I, I could, I could go on about, you know, what, what, what we bear witness to, but it’s, it, it’s a lot. And, and we need better tools for this. We need better discussions about this.
We need a ton more support, uh, for this. And so after discovering the, you know what psychedelics. Can do. Um, I’m just like amazed and I say, oh my God. And then you go and you look at some of the data from, from Roland Griffith’s work and, and at NYU and, and Yale and UCLA and you, you say, oh, well, there’s actually some data [00:21:00] to say that patients with terminal cancer, their existential distress and anxiety is substantially eased by one or two sessions with psilocybin.
And it’s like, we should be screaming this from the mountaintops, right? Mm. This is big news. This is, this is what we’re doing, right? This is, this is what is the b story of what’s going on. This is why we’re doing everything we’re doing. Shouldn’t we be talking about this? And so, I, I, I, I really thought we’d be.
Celebrating this as a field, and I would go to these conferences and there’d be absolutely no discussion of this at all in the medical oncology, surgical oncology community. There’s no discussion of it. None. You know, there’s a little bit in the, in the psychiatry community, which is great. There’s some interest, some interest, you know, it’s getting there.
But in terms of there are these amazing data, but then there’s the reality on the ground, right? What is it going to [00:22:00] take for these data to make it to patients, right? Hmm. Or is this just some abstraction, or is this just a way that we’re trying to get FDA approval for some of the, you know, new pharmaceutical variants of these medicines?
And so initially I’m like, oh, well let, let me participate in clinical. We need more data. We need more data. But no, I mean, we’ve got, we’ve got data we need, we need bridges. We need action. One of my,
Joe Moore: um, lady I kind of consider to be my big sister. Yeah. She um, she kind of, I think for years led derm oncology at uh, where the hell was she, one of the fancy Boston hospitals and uh, I think she’s moving to Houston now.
But when in conversations with her, the level of kind of flexibility oncologists have in terms of using really kind of far out things, you know? Okay. There’s like one [00:23:00] case study in the literature that says this, this other, like the standard of care and everything else we’re trying just doesn’t seem to be working.
Like we have the privilege of using this kind of thing. And there’s this really interesting edge case, Jason, that happened in um, uh, where was it? Denver When Denver decriminalized mushrooms. Um, I think it was an oncologist actually prescribed psilocybin under the, at that point, Trump, right. To try Act Federal Right.
To try act because the person was stage three, stage four, like on his way out. And, and this patient actually went and did like a big press release about it. Like, I believe in this so much. Um, it’s not gonna save my life, but it’s gonna really help me with, um, the, you know, have a full life for the next, you know, weeks or months.
And I just love that case. And I, I wonder kind of your perspectives on this kind of, you know, we have the federal right to try Oregons kind of working on some Right. To try [00:24:00] stuff. Like do you have any kind of opinions on this kind of Right to try thing?
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, I mean, I. Right to try is a very bureaucratic process.
Yeah. There’s a lot of lip service about this as a political talking point, but in reality it is so rarely applicable. It so rarely helps any individual because the amount of work required, uh, by the system. In order to allow this to happen, you basically have to write a whole new clinical trial for one person with a low likelihood of it coming to fruition.
It’s actually easier to write a clinical trial, which I’ve done. I have made clinical trials for individuals, and I would rather do that than the right to try, because at least you have a commitment from a manufacturer or something. You, you, you have some confidence it’s going to happen. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: So
Dr Jason Konner: it in real, in the reality, right, to try almost never comes to fruition largely because [00:25:00] somebody’s in this situation, they need this sooner than the six months that it takes.
To go through the bureaucracy. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a abstraction.
Joe Moore: Right. And not all that meaningful. And that’s interesting. So clinical trial might actually be more interesting in, in like, how do we, how do we streamline access that way? The Canadians have like the whole federal petition process. I’m sure you’ve seen that a little bit, but it’s, their success rate is getting lower.
Um, but that’s le leading to a lot of lawsuits for the federal government to have to answer to up there. Um, yeah. Well that’s a really clever and interesting angle. Thanks for, thanks for that. And I, go ahead.
Dr Jason Konner: No, no, no. Please go on. Uh,
Joe Moore: so, you know, uh, there’s, there’s a lot I want to get into with you. This is so interesting.
I’m, I’m curious about insights from your own experiences. Like, do you, do you feel like you perhaps think [00:26:00] more clearly? I’m kind of removing the humanity part, but like, when you’re actually developing treatment plans for folks and administering the treatments, are you thinking perhaps more clearly or feeling like you’re en engaging with the patient’s condition in a more intelligent way?
You know, do are, are you feeling like you have more insight into how to approach it?
Dr Jason Konner: That’s a good question. Um, yes and no. Uh, you know, I, I think that I came to this work at a point in my career where I, I’m sort of at the top of my game cognitively about all this. Um, I do think that. Uh, this work did enable me to be more creative about what sort of clinical trials we could do.
Mm-hmm. Um, more creative about scientific questions, more helpful in advisory boards and things like that. Um, you know, so, so, and also [00:27:00] your mind is just clearer. You’re just less cluttered. Mm-hmm. Um, so I would say that my, my capacity creative was definitely enhanced. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I think there was also just more room for that, because there’s less clutter from distress about the other things that are part of the job.
Joe Moore: Hmm.
Yeah. Well, I love that. That’s cool. I, there’s this whole field of study happening. Um, this group Center for Minds is leading the charge there. They’ve been working on creative problem solving with psychedelics and trying to, you know, get to the neurology of it. I think. I hope for an ecosystem of groups looking at that kind of thing.
Uh, so we can have some more actionable insights sooner. But I, I do wonder what we’re gonna find when we look at that. Like how are we actually potentially solving problems quicker or more creatively? Um, yeah, I have no
Dr Jason Konner: doubt there’s something there. I have no doubt there’s something there. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, all right, before we go back to oncology and [00:28:00] psychedelics, this idea that I have been kind of toying with for a while, and I think oncology is actually uniquely suited for this.
So we have evidence-based treatments, right? Sometimes we don’t have enough evidence-based treatments, um, or those just, they just aren’t working for whatever reason. Um, and then there’s this concept we’ve been kind of playing with here called, um. Evidence informed, uh, decision framework where we’re like, okay, like we’re kind of stuck.
We don’t know, like what’s happening over in these outer territories, and can we infer things laterally from those? Mm-hmm. Uh, my friend court wings always like referring me to this, this kind of evidence informed. Is that a, is that a thinking style you have to work with in your practice at all? This kinda lateral jump?
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. I haven’t, I haven’t heard that term, but I, I like it. Um, and, and it, it is descriptive of what much of, much of what I, I, I do, I think it depends to some degree on, on, [00:29:00] um, which field you’re in. So for instance, in, in breast cancer, um, there’s so much data, so much data that as that describes. Almost every scenario of every patient at every stage of their disease.
And that’s largely because we have pharmaceutical companies who are investing in trials to try to, you know, get a foothold in every point of the disease. So there’s, and there are these trial that have thousands and thousands of patients. Mm-hmm. And they look for. You know, statistical significance in these groups, and you could look for subtle differences.
Uh, and then the arguments is made. Well, we have, you know, so many hundreds of thousands of cases per year that each incremental benefit is justifiable. So, um, you know, you have those fields that are, that are very data-driven. Um, and then in, in my field, I, I worked as a gynecologic medical oncologist. So, uh, my patients had gynecologic cancers, almost all of which were, all [00:30:00] of which are really rare cancers.
And so, uh, you’re very often in a, in a data free zone, uh, where you need to be evidence informed. I, I think what often happens in, in these cancers is, uh, there is a bit of a gold rush for the pharmaceutical industry to get data, but very often they’re trying to get their, uh, drugs earlier and earlier into the disease process.
So they get a little data that, yes, it works in recurrence, let’s move it to the front. And that, ’cause that’s when they’re, they’re gonna get the most use of their drug. So for the first line or two of therapy, there’s going to be some standards of care. Uh, but very often, you know, I would’ve patients who would have, you know, 10, 15, 20 lines of therapy.
So for the, you know, number three through 20, uh, it’s, it’s, um, evidence informed. Uh, and that’s where the creativity and where the art of medicine, uh, really comes into play. And the relational is absolutely critical for that as well, because you really need [00:31:00] to get a good sense of patients, uh, preference and, and needs.
And, and there’s a dance about understanding, um, what they’re capable of and what their toxicities are. Because very often, mm-hmm. You know, they may wanna underplay one thing because they want a certain drug or, you know, you have to really feel out what their preferences are, what, how not to do harm, how to work for them.
Uh, so there, there’s a lot of, um, you know, the, this is the art of medicine plays deep in these settings. Um, and, and ironically the more, the more we know scientifically, the bigger that field of data free zone gets as patients are, are living longer.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I was chatting with,
Dr Jason Konner: um,
Joe Moore: I think it might’ve been an oncologist recently about that, or, or just the new diseases that are happening post-treatment because people are living, oh, you’ve survived [00:32:00] 30 years after your chemo.
It’s novel. Like people, we don’t have data sets for people living to a hundred after having, um, these treatments. So it’s a fascinating area of study. Um. Mind-boggling levels of complexity. It’s like, like you, you’re not gonna find a big cohort you can study that’s like that, you know, you’re not finding thousands of people with that, you know, situation.
Yeah. So it’s gonna get more and more complex, I imagine, as people continue to age here.
Dr Jason Konner: Absolutely. Absolutely. And yes, what you, what you bring up is a really interesting point. I’ve thought about this a lot, about these new disease states that never really existed. I mean, you look at something like graft, graft versus host disease, which is a consequence of, of bone marrow transplant sometimes.
And, and that never existed before. We had bone marrow transplants and suddenly it’s this whole new disease entity. And, and people specialize in this. And, and it’s just interesting as physicians to be treating diseases that we’ve sort [00:33:00] of cre, you know, created, I mean, they, they come from helping people, but also we, we’ve created them.
And, and there’s something really strange about that on some level, just in turn, you know, almost existentially from our perspective. Hmm. So it’s interesting, but, um, unusual.
Joe Moore: So in your interest in psychedelics and, and, um, knowledge of assorted chemotherapies, radiation, other interventions, are you, are you curious about or hopeful about assorted psychedelics or psycho plastics neuroplastic to actually recover people’s, um, nervous systems in some way?
Like particularly you’re kind of talking about like blunted kind of nerves earlier or post-treatment, and I wonder about your perspectives there or hopes there.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, I mean, it’s a great question and, and I, I so often get the question about what are the, the biologic [00:34:00] effects of, of these agents going, going to be, uh.
And the need in terms of, uh, peripheral nervous system. Neurogenesis in oncology is tremendous. We have so many chemotherapies, uh, and targeted therapies as well that are damaging to the nerve endings. Uh, and that really impact quality of life. Uh, and these things are hard to graph. Um, and, but when you’re with patients and you hear how it affects their lives, you see, you know, how, how substantial an issue this really is.
And the fact that we can see, um, increased growth, uh, of synapses that we see regeneration of nerves in the brain, um, with some of these substances is another thing that I would think the medical field will be shouting from the rooftops. Um, because we’re all taught in medical school, the brain, you know, maxes out at age 24 and [00:35:00] then, then slowly atrophies.
Uh, over the next several decades, which is kind of a depressing thought. You do see brains shrink as the, on the scans as patients get older. So suddenly we have something that seems to beef up the, uh, the good cells and the good parts of the brain. Uh, and it does open up the question, well, what are we doing for the rest of the, uh, nervous system?
And this is something, you know, Paul Stat certainly talks about. I know that his sta stat stack, uh, he thinks a lot about how that might affect, um, peripheral neuropathy and, and, and, and nerve endings. He talks a lot about this tap test, uh, that he looks at with people in the STEM stack, which, you know, is a surrogate perhaps for, for, uh, peripheral nerve function.
But this is something we really need to stu I mean, this is so understudied. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the medications that we have, uh, to treat this, you know, the, um. Gabapentin [00:36:00] and Cymbalta and, you know, they’re, they’re, they don’t actually improve the problem at all. They blunt some of the discomfort. They do nothing for numbness.
They can blunt some of the pain, but they have their own side effects. Uh, and this is such a huge need that it needs to be studied. Uh, and, and, and I think there can be fairly straightforward studies to look at what happens to, you know, the synapses of peripheral nerves when they’re exposed to psilocybin and line span, like, what’s, what’s, what’s going on?
Show us. Uh, and I think that might generate some interest in that. Um, but I think it’s hard for me to say that it does or does not do that clinically because that’s hard to study. Mm-hmm. Certainly from a, you know, one person’s perspective, these are very slow growing nerves. You know, the peripheral nerves that can be a meter long, especially in the legs.
So axonal regrowth can take months to years. So it, it is hard to, to study the clinical effects of [00:37:00] these things.
Joe Moore: I remember Paul kind of pointing to a lot of Japanese studies. I just wonder if they’re like looking at mushrooms in a different way, or like they’re looking at these in, you know, Petri dishes as opposed to in humans and kind of doing that inference to humans.
And, you know, I it’s always an interesting one.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, yeah. Well they, you know, certainly in East Asia, they have, uh, a wider appreciation for what mushrooms can do. Uh, and they also use much higher doses of medicinal mushrooms. Uh, so I, I think the medical community in, in Japan has, you know, certainly embraced mushrooms just as a therapeutic modality.
More, more than we have, uh, here. So you, does the
Joe Moore: science seem global? Like, does it, so I, I remember kind of wading through all sorts of weird, murky. International science, I don’t know, snarkiness, maybe like inability to accept other countries data. You’re like, oh, the Germans do [00:38:00] this, or the Russians do this, Chinese do this.
So it’s not real. And like, you know, I found that like not a helpful approach. Like, okay, what’s here that’s actually a value and how do we go forward? Like what can we actually take from this, even if it’s not our standards? Yeah, yeah. Is there a good cooperation?
Dr Jason Konner: Yes and no. I mean, it is totally subjective.
Um, you know, when you see a European study that shows something novel, you could say, okay, this is great. Or if, if it’s goes against your bias, you could say, well, this was in a totally different population. We really can’t accept this. So people tend to accept or discard them based on their own, their own biases is what I’ve observed.
Joe Moore: Mm. Yeah,
that’s interesting and helpful. Yeah, thanks for that. And I, you know, I, um, I’m particularly helpful or hopeful, sorry, uh, about what IGA might hold here in terms of what I’ve seen on Google Lens [00:39:00] Labs and this kind of just extreme length of neuroplasticity, like four plus weeks, she had to actually terminate the trial before it hit the end of that window.
Um, so they’re like, ah, it just keeps going. All right. Uh, stop. It was only four weeks and it could have theoretically been a lot longer. Like, we don’t really know, but it’s, um, it’s really hopeful to me. Um, we’ll see. Yeah,
Dr Jason Konner: I mean, I began, is really having his moment. Uh, and, and I think that I. It doesn’t necessarily have the stigmas that some of the other substances do, so, uh mm-hmm.
It
Joe Moore: seems
Dr Jason Konner: to be
Joe Moore: welcome. Yeah. Rick Barry did it.
Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I’m going to the
Iboga Summit on Friday that’s in Aspen, which should be really interesting and I’ll come back with some findings there. It’s kind of like a, a private, kind of like Texas influenced big conference. Fascinating. To see what they want to talk about.
Dr Jason Konner: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I mean, that, that would be incredible to look at. I know people are starting to microdose [00:40:00] ibogaine and, um, you know, the different, different ways of, uh, working with this medicine. So who knows? It’s fascinating. It really is.
Joe Moore: I’ll speak to it in terms of microdosing and I, it’s a very curious experience.
Uh, I don’t know how to characterize it all that well yet, but it’s fascinating. Um, and I, I think edgy, so be careful, everybody, like talk to a bunch of doctors about this before you jump in. Um, ’cause there is a cardio, you know, cardiac risk there. Um, and we don’t want anybody to get hurt.
Yeah.
Agreed. So, um, another interesting thing about this kind of, would you call that peripheral neuropathy?
Um, when people just aren’t having really good nerve function at the end of the nervous system? Yeah. Um, we had this really interesting case that we worked on. Um, a friend kind of, um, did the work. It got published. Um, she’s been really public about this from the patient [00:41:00] experience. Lynn Watkins is her name.
You know, couldn’t move her, her toes for super long time. Couldn’t drive, couldn’t use Uten, TILs, 10 out of 10 pain forever. You know, kind of, um, a surgical accident that just compounded and compounded, compounded. And we did, uh, my friend did this treatment and six. Six weeks of prep, then a dosing session, and um, she could move her toes again.
She could do that like PT towel test where you’re actually moving. She, she couldn’t, had never done, you know, in ages and in utensils. Now she can drive herself to the store, go shopping on her, all this stuff. Fascinating. Um, and, uh, everybody should check out that story. I, I wish I had the article where I could like, cite the paper for you, but it’s, um, if you’re curious, I can send that your way, but it’s, I would be curious.
Yeah, I’ll, um, I’ll dig in. I’m a, I’m a board member, founding board member at the Psychedelics and Pain Association, and we do a lot of really interesting stuff, like bring people together, top folks in science and medicine, and actually patient populations are trying to bring [00:42:00] patients together to say what, you know, I’m stuck.
I haven’t had help in five years. The stuff they give me is horrible and I don’t feel progress. What do I do? Yeah. And in some cases, decades. Right? Um mm-hmm. But the hope is how do we just keep people from using, um, opioids for decades of their life when they don’t, when there could be alternatives. Yeah.
Um, hopefully. Fingers crossed here. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, do you, so sorry for that tangent on my stuff. But the idea here around like this intersection of psychedelics and oncology is super interesting and broad ranging, right? It’s some people might die, some people. Family might be more impacted than they are.
Um, and I’m seeing a lot more stuff around, okay, I’m gonna get the treatment, but maybe my spouse who’s gonna survive me also should get a treatment. Um, yeah. And she can maybe show up better for me.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, caregivers have it rough, um, [00:43:00] because they, they can’t really complain
Joe Moore: mm-hmm. In
Dr Jason Konner: some way.
Uh, and yet they’re giving a, they’re very often giving a lot, and it’s not their life who’s on the line, but it’s their, their partner. Um, and very little, you know, as, as much as we’re glossing over a lot of the issues of the patients, you know, we’re, we’re not even trying for it. It’s very often, you know mm-hmm.
For the caregivers, uh, because it’s just too, it’s just too much that we just don’t have the bandwidth for it. But the way that, that. Their lives are affected, um, both during, uh, a patient’s discourse and in the aftermath, if they lose their loved one. I mean, it’s just absolutely horrific. So yes, absolutely bringing them in.
Um, I believe there, there is a trial going gone at, at Sunstone. Mm-hmm. Um, with, with partner MDMA, uh, joint sessions, [00:44:00] uh, for caregivers, which I, I think is terrific. Um, but yes, I, I, I, I think that when, when somebody is diagnosed with cancer, their whole family is affected. Uh, it has such a ripple effect on, um, you know, not just the spouse, but, but children and siblings and coworkers, and I mean.
I’m, I’m, I’m not suggesting that absolutely everybody needs to do this, but there’s an enormous, uh, enormous amount of suffering and, and grief, uh, and, and, and trauma that can be really helped, uh, for some people, uh, affected by this. Uh, and it’s yes, definitely goes beyond the patient for sure. Uh, even Pat, even people who are at high risk for cancer, and that’s a, that’s a huge population or living with that specter, um, who actually haven’t had the diagnosis, or people who have, um, you know, like a low grade prostate cancer and they’re [00:45:00] undergoing, watchful waiting and they, you know, it, it may become a problematic cancer or may be something that they can live a normal life with.
And every six months they have to have a rectal, you know, transrectal biopsy. It’s horrible. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of people at risk for cancer. Who I think really could benefit by doing this sort of work.
Joe Moore: Hmm.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. Um,
Joe Moore: so the way you phrased it was interesting to me. ’cause there’s, there’s this idea that we’re just very individual things, not part of systems, but I think like almost we’re, we’re more part of systems than we are individuals.
And kind of the systems awareness is kind of a cool insight that I think often comes from, well, can come from psychedelics and, you know, help us. ’cause we, we come from this hyper individualist thing and so how do we Yeah. Become more communal and orientation, maybe not communal system, just community aware.
Um, [00:46:00]
Dr Jason Konner: you know, it’s funny because I, that’s almost like a metaphor for, for cancer itself. You know, you have this group of cells that are constantly communicating and working for the greater good of the organism. And one of the really amazing things about cells is that when something is not right, they stop replicating.
Joe Moore: You
Dr Jason Konner: know, there’s a, there’s a self-check system is P 53 that before cell divides, P 53 says, wait a second, let’s just take a look. Let’s make sure this makes sense. And, uh, and cancer’s p you know, P 53 is, is one of the most, um. You know, most frequently, um, you know, TP 53 gene is very frequently, uh, disrupted in, in cancer.
So, you know, they’re just sort of growing and taking and expanding without really taking in the signals from the community. Hmm. And, and giving out signals. It’s sort of this very self-serving action. Um, [00:47:00] so it, it’s almost as if these cells have been cut off from, from community and from this, uh, sense that you’re describing.
So it’s a, you know, happens on, on the macro and on the micro.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. That’s interesting. Um, so what are, what are some frontiers that you’re really interested in here around this, this intersection of psychedelics and oncology?
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. I mean, I, I’m really starting with the basics here.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jason Konner: Like I can foresee.
The end, but I, I really need to start at the beginning, um, by just starting with the messaging and the education and I, I think there’s such limited understanding, uh, of what psychedelics, uh, are and, and can do and, and how they can be worked with and, and what the risks and potential benefits are, and how they can potentially help pe, you know, the cancer ecosystem.
So [00:48:00] I think just talking about it really, uh, is the most important thing initially. Um, because, you know, I, I, I would love a time where people have a healthy relationship with death and, and, and live for love rather than out of fear. And, and, you know, our ICUs are not crowded with people like, desperately trying to get that last chemo and that last breath and filled with tubes.
And I mean, there’s, you know, there’s so many low hanging fruits, um, that, that, um. You know, I, I can go on for hours talking about all, all the things that I, I think could be improved. Um, but I, I really think just getting the message out and, and giving people permission to even think about this and ask these questions and talk about it and say, Hey, this, this is something that could really help, um, is, is really what we, what we need.
Um. I, I remember finding out recently that only [00:49:00] something like 18% of Oregonians knew that psilocybin assisted therapy was even legal, which is, you know, you think about Oregon, it’s so far ahead of the curve and, and everything, but, you know, just, just starting the conversation. So I’m trying not to think too big and too far ahead with all of this.
But certainly, I mean, if I, if I were pressed to answer this question, uh, I would say two really big things that I would like to see studied. Um, are the, uh, biologic effects and the financial effects, because I think these are things that would get people to notice the biologic effects we get patients to notice and the financial effects we get the system to notice.
And I think that, you know, very often the question is, oh, well these, you know, you can’t make any money selling a natural product, and how are we gonna make space for this and blah, blah, blah. And you know, I, I think, I think that the system as a whole [00:50:00] would be incredibly, uh, benefited. You know, if, if I have some patients who’ve worked with psychedelics, you know, when I was in practice and when I see them, it was a totally different story.
You know, we wouldn’t be going over and over the same questions and the same, you know, what’s gonna happen to me? And, and I looked at my tumor markers and they look horrible. And my creatinine, they, we would talk about their lives and their plans and their dreams and really just, you know, we talk about their cancer care, but it, you know, we would not have to scrutinize every little thing and worry about the future.
And, and I really think I could see twice the number of patients in a day, uh, who were taking mushrooms than, than patients who are not, and all of us get home happier. I mean, and so I, I think that there’s such a cluttered, you know, system right now that can be uncluttered and happier and healthier. Um, and I think the, the potential for, that’s tremendous.
And I mentioned ICUs. We spend so much money, so many healthcare [00:51:00] dollars on end of end of life care, meaning the last two weeks of life. You know, and, and I think that comes from people who have not examined their relationship with, with death, uh, and who are, who are living in fear and, you know, fighting for every, every, every moment in a way that’s really not realistic or in the best interest.
And so of, and this is true also for doctors, you know, um, there’s a time in a a, in a patient’s journey who has advanced disease, where there comes a time where treatment is gonna do more harm than good. And so often patients receive treatment beyond that point. Uh, and I think that that’s because of, um, you know, the doctors who are not comfortable saying no, which is a hard thing to do.
And the patients who say, well, I’m not going to give up. You know, I must, I must fight. And even though we know that so often in that situation, lives are [00:52:00] shortened by giving too much chemo, complications are increased, more time is spent in the hospital. But still these things are done for, um, reasons that have more to do with, with trauma than with, you know, rational medical decisions.
So, so I think that, you know, people who are making peace with death would not be ending up, you know, with multiple tubes in the ICU doing unreasonable things. And I think anybody in medicine who has witnessed this, knows how absolutely horrific it is and, uh, devastating to patients and families. Uh, and if we could stop this madness, not by mandating it, but inviting people into a space where they can, you know, make choices that are, that are not based on, on terror.
You know, we would have a better system. And I mean, there’s so many, so many areas, there’s so much suffering that goes on in this journey. There’s so many areas that can be helped. [00:53:00] But those are a couple of big ones. And, and so biologic effects, you know, I see this in a couple of different ways. Uh, I think it’s not realistic to say, okay, well if you have cancer and you take a mushroom, your cancer is going to get better because mushrooms treat cancer.
I mean, that’s obviously absurd. Um, but I do think that, um, working with psychedelics or doing inner work in general can, uh, help people, um, improve their bodies and their minds in a variety of ways, uh, and perhaps be better able to, um. To go ahead and, and undergo treatment and allow the body to do its thing.
I think in the last 20 years, the major, um, advance that we’ve seen in oncology has been cancer immunotherapy, which has been an, an extraordinary transformative era. And one of the incredible thing, there’s a variety of, you know, huge blockbuster medicines that have been made. [00:54:00] Uh, and, but most of ’em don’t actually do anything directly against tumors.
What they do is they basically give permission to the immune system to do its job, and it’s a testament to the unbelievable capacity to our bodies have to heal themselves. Uh, and that sometimes there are just barriers to doing that. And I think that’s also a nice metaphor for the psychedelic journey as well.
But, uh, I think that if we are to, you know, uh, clear our channels and clean our vessels, uh. Then we’re going to be better able to make use of some of these natural, uh, healing modalities that are, that are there for us. Um, and I think when we’re cutting down on polypharmacy, meaning, you know, if we’re not taking all these opiates and gabapentin and SSRIs and benzodiazepines, and I can assure you that there are tons of patients who are on enormous lists of these medications, uh, that are, you know, marginally [00:55:00] at best benefiting from them.
And I think when these are removed from most, most patients lists, they’re gonna be living better, happier, healthier, and they’re gonna be more able to receive, um, you know, the benefits of their treatments. Mm-hmm. I have through the years, heard a variety of anecdotes about healing of cancers. Uh, and they’re mostly related, almost completely related to people who have worked with ayahuasca.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And
Dr Jason Konner: I think that’s something that needs to be looked at. Um. I’m really curious about that. I’m really open to the possibility of that. You know, part of my interest in all this actually started with this patient who, uh, really incredible story. She had Ricardo ovarian cancer. She was, uh, getting seventh line, uh, chemotherapy topotecan, and it was sort of having a marginal benefit for, for her.
And she actually went down to South America to, to spend two weeks at a retreat with a, with a shaman and, uh, [00:56:00] no, no, me, no, um, psychedelic medicines. Really just the shamanic rituals. Came back and, you know, was really not doing well. See, we said, you know something, let’s just like take a break from the chemo.
Uh, and she subsequently had a spontaneous regression of her disease, which almost never happens in ovarian cancer. It’s next to unheard of. Uh, and it went on for about two and a half years. It was incredible. She had belly full of tumor, high grade serous, uh, ovarian cancer, you know, platinum refractory, like the real thing.
And, uh, I had this two year regression, which was extraordinary. No chemo. Uh, ca 1 25 plummeted, scans, got better, belly, got better, got off all their pain meds. Um, shortly after this experience in the jungle. And so ultimately the disease started to grow. Half her tumors started to grow, half of them were shrunken, took her to the, or did a heroic 12 hour [00:57:00] surgery on her, cleaned her out.
The surgeon, uh, labeled the tumors as either shrunken away or growing. And the surgeon and I said, we gotta look at this. And we, we, we put together some, uh, a team of laboratory scientists who studied this extensively. And you know, when we see something called a mixed response where some tumors are growing, some are shrinking, uh, we generally presume that that’s because they’re resistant clones that appear in the body.
That’s sort of in the presumption in oncology. But what we found was that these tumors were genetically the same all over the body, whether they were shrinking or whether they were growing. The key difference between the growing tumors and the shrinking tumors is that the shrinking tumors, you could see infiltrating T cells, that’s an immune cell.
So they’re capable of killing cancers throughout the shrinking tumor, eating them up. Whereas in the growing tumor, you could see that they were excluded from the tumor. They were sort of on the outside of the tumor trying to get in. They couldn’t get in. And so clearly something [00:58:00] immunologic had been triggered, uh, in her, you know, shortly after she had this experience in South America.
And can I say for certain that that is, you know, what happened? No. The timing of it was really interesting. Um, and so, you know, who knows? This was, this was in Cell, which is like our, our leading, you know, it’s a big publication, but we didn’t mention anything about, about the Shaman. Um, but uh, you know, that certainly piqued my answer.
Like, what happened here? What happened? And I think we have to be open to asking these questions, right? We, we, we need to be. Um, I know that. I had a lifelong cat allergy and I, I inadvertently desensitized myself just by visiting a friend with a cat for two weeks. I didn’t have to. That’s the
Joe Moore: Andy Wheel story.
Dr Jason Konner: Yeah. I mean, there’s other things that happen with the immune system. There are ways to turn on and off. Our gut has a huge effect on this. Uh, [00:59:00] perhaps our, you know, glucocorticoid response that’s constantly triggered in this fear state, uh, is gonna be suppressing this. I mean, there’s so many, so many things.
Um, and, and is ayahuasca changing our body to making us. You know, more to allow the immune system to do its job. Maybe I, I mean, I think these are questions we need to be asking and investigating. Um, and, and, and I don’t know yet you
Joe Moore: think it’s possible to do this, like in, in the near term, like do you, do you think if you partnered with, I don’t know, Rutgers, just ’cause you’re in New Jersey, like, do you think this is something that could theoretically be executed on and, and you know, it, it’s, it’s a little cartoonish for me to think you could do this in a Yeah.
A single population with a single type of cancer, but it, yeah, I don’t really know how we would do that. You know,
Dr Jason Konner: it’s, it’s a little more nuanced than that because you don’t want turn the retreat setting into a, a clinical laboratory. Right. This is something, a very beautiful and personal experience
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Dr Jason Konner: That people [01:00:00] have. And, and I’m the last person who wants to interfere with that. And, and, and I. I, I remember I heard about some woman who had had ovarian cancer and treatment wasn’t working, and she went to the jungle and she, she experienced ayahuasca. And, and the story was that everything went away and that she ended up staying on and just stayed there for years and became a quote.
And I really wanted to talk with her. And, you know, I had a friend who went down and she said she doesn’t, she doesn’t like to talk about it. And you have to respect that, right? Like, I don’t know what her process was to achieve that, but if that’s something that she needs to hold onto for herself, um, you know, that’s her, you know, you have to respect that.
So, I, I think that we, we can’t be just looking at people as subjects, but at the same time, this is important information. So, so the, these issues really need to be brought to the fore. ’cause we can’t really look at this from the [01:01:00] usual scientific perspective, you know, it’s just not, not right. Mm-hmm. So I don’t know.
My hope is to somehow bear witness to this without interfering with this.
Joe Moore: Mm. I love that. Yeah. We’re, uh, kind of something we champion here is how do we just think a little bit broader about this, um, you know, scientific investigation topic. We can get really atomic and, and I don’t know, it’s kind of in this logical positive as frame, but once we have a few experiences, we think, oh, perhaps we can do science a little bit more skillfully, um, be a little bit more efficient with our scientific spend.
Um, and then hopefully bring it into clinic in a, you know, nice, great, safe way. Um, and powerful way. And yeah, it’s, it’s a tough one. We’ll, we’ll figure it out, but it’s definitely something that I think, uh, many of us are looking at. And I’m excited for you to be at Penn for this upcoming conference. So, um, I hope you find some allies and colleagues [01:02:00] there that want to talk about this.
Dr Jason Konner: I hope so too. I mean, really, I, I, I’m, I’m driven to help serve patients and, and families, as I was saying, and, and, and, and caregivers. Um, but I really think it, it’s critical that it starts with the, the healthcare system. And not only because healthcare workers really need this, it could really personally benefit from it, but ultimately it’s not going to reach patients.
Or not going to reach patients in a good way. Mm-hmm. Uh, if there’s not good psychedelic literacy, uh, in the healthcare community. So I, I ideally that there’s a lot more people with experiences, uh, who are talking about this, but at least hearing about it, knowing about it, uh, and having resources, I think, I think it’s gonna be critical.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So if you’re in, uh, I don’t know, y’all call it the tri-state area. If you’re in the tri-state area, go check out this conference at Penn. It’s coming up. It’s gonna be amazing. Um, it’s a very, um, I went last year. It was a lot bigger, but this looks like a really [01:03:00] stacked lineup. It should be really interesting.
And I love that. It’s, um, I just love the lineup. I love what they’re trying to do this year, so I wish I could be there. Have the best time, Jason. And, um, any, anything you want to like point people towards before we wrap here, where can people follow you online?
Dr Jason Konner: Sure. I mean, my venture, if you call it that, is still in its infancy.
Uh, I have a website I’m just putting together now, it’s called psychedelic oncology.com. Uh, I’m on Instagram, psychedelic oncology, and uh, hopefully we’ll start posting something soon. But, uh, reach out to me. You can, you can, uh, send me an email on the website and you know, if you wanna connect with me, just reach out.
My email is Dr. connor@psychedeliconcology.com. So, uh, I’m here to field questions.
Joe Moore: Outstanding. Well, thank you so much for your time and I hope we get to do it again in the future. And, and best of luck out there on your ventures.
Dr Jason Konner: I really enjoyed speaking with you, Joe. Thanks so much. Yeah, likewise. Thanks.
Identical twins, writers, and culture-shapers TK Wonder and Cipriana Quann join Joe and Anne for a frank, generous conversation about identity, resilience, and the long arc of healing. Cipriana recounts launching Urban Bush Babes in 2011 to center women of color in beauty and fashion—work that led to a Vogue “day-in-the-life” feature and collaborations with couture houses. TK shares the parallel path of her music career (opening for artists from Sting and Nas to Erykah Badu and Queens of the Stone Age) and the sisters’ ongoing writing, public speaking, and mental-health advocacy.
They reflect on the fashion industry’s policing of natural hair, how those daily microaggressions erode self-worth, and why legal protections like the CROWN Act matter. The heart of the episode is their survival story: a decade of abuse by their father, endured separately yet witnessed together. Seeing one another live through it—“a physical manifestation of survival,” as they put it—kept them alive. As adults, daily check-ins remain their core practice.
Psychedelics entered their lives years later. With careful set and setting, education, and professional support, psychedelic sessions—especially ibogaine—helped surface grief, release shame, and reframe entrenched coping strategies. Cipriana’s first extended session unlocked tears she’d been forced to suppress as a child; TK Wonder describes a transformative ibogaine experience that catalyzed a decisive shift away from refined sugar and ultra-processed foods toward sustained movement, earlier mornings, and mindful nourishment. Both emphasize that psychedelics are not “magic pills” in isolation: integration, therapy, community, and lifestyle design make insights durable.
The conversation also tackles safety and access. The sisters stress working with experienced facilitators and medical oversight, naming that these modalities aren’t for everyone. They call for more affordability and BIPOC representation in a field that can still feel exclusionary, while holding a wide tent vision—everyone deserves the chance to heal. They note how narratives are changing (from early-2000s panic to mainstream book-club conversations), and how stories alongside science move culture and policy.
New
If you’re exploring this work: educate deeply, choose qualified support, prioritize integration, and remember—your past is a chapter, not your whole story.
Recorded October 1
In this candid, practice-focused conversation, Joe is joined by Norwegian psychologist and researcher Ivar Goksøyr to explore how therapists’ own healing journeys can measurably improve client outcomes—and why MDMA-assisted experiences, used thoughtfully, may be a uniquely powerful catalyst for professional development. Ivar shares lessons from Norway’s psychedelic research team (PTSD and the world’s first MDMA-for-depression trial), his clinic Psykologvirke in Oslo, and his online course, “The Wounded Healer,” which uses authentic footage from his FDA-approved MAPS volunteer MDMA sessions to illuminate real clinical processes, countertransference, and the “inner healing intelligence” as a working metaphor rather than dogma.
The discussion ranges from implementation realities (laws, ethics, and conservative regulatory cultures) to the pragmatic: how an MDMA experience helped Ivar resolve chronic anxiety reactions in the therapy chair, reduced burn-out, increased receptivity, and improved attunement—changes he believes many clinicians can cultivate when personal growth is prioritized alongside methods training. He outlines a developing collaboration with the University of Oslo on Empathogen-Assisted Therapies Development—not to “dose for certification,” but to support therapists’ self-awareness and resilience in legally sanctioned research contexts.
They also compare compounds: why MDMA may be easier to integrate into mainstream psychiatry than classic tryptamines (fewer projective processes, more biographical focus, smoother affect regulation), while acknowledging the immense promise—and higher demands—of psilocybin and other psychedelics. Throughout, they emphasize humility, guardrails, and the need to keep learning as the field scales (with frank reflections on ketamine’s mixed rollout and avoiding idealization/devaluation cycles).
November 2 & 9 (two consecutive Sundays, 3 hours each, online). Interactive, footage-driven, method-agnostic—useful whether or not you practice psychedelic therapy.
If you’re a clinician interested in deeper self-work to strengthen your therapeutic presence, this episode offers a grounded path forward—equal parts inspiration, ethics, and hands-on learning.
This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] I think yeah. Hi everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. Joe Moore here joined by Eva. Eva, how are you today?
Ivar Goksøyr : Pretty good, thank you. Thank you. How about yourself?
Joe Moore: Oh, I’m doing lovely, beautiful Autumn day here. It’s a peak foliage in the mountains of Colorado right now. Mm-hmm. It’s glorious, glorious beautiful.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, I think I’m fully recovered from Burning Man. Um, so
Ivar Goksøyr : it’s like a month ago or something. Oh my gosh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It takes a long time emotionally, at least it’s,
Joe Moore: yeah. So I’m excited to talk today. You’ve been up to some really interesting things around advocating for new forms of, um, I guess new additions to, uh, MDMA psychotherapy training and, um. Yeah, can you give us like a high, high level overview of, of what these changes are and then we can [00:01:00] start talking about you.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, sure. So, you know, I’m a member of the psychedelic research team here in Norway, and we’ve done a couple of MDMA studies, one on PTSD and the world’s first on MDMA for depression. And then I’m also running an online, uh, training in MDMA assisted therapy, uh, and the wounded Healer, that’s what it’s called.
Ivar Goksøyr : And. In this training, I show authentic, uh, footage from my own MDMA sessions and, uh, focusing in on, on, uh, the professional development I gained from the personal growth, from the trauma healing I experienced as part of that, uh, uh, MDMA, uh, therapy. Uh, uh, so, and, and building on those experiences, how, how much that MDMA therapy helped me in, in my role as a therapist.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also reading up on other literature and, and looking into that this is, you know, something that so many people report. We’re in the process now, uh, incorporation with the University of Oslo to set up an EM Pathogen Assisted Therapies Development project. So, uh, not, uh, giving [00:02:00] MDMA, uh, to therapists to train them as MDMA therapist, but to, uh, help them with their professional growth.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through personal growth. So that’s the main, uh, project that I’m leading right now, and that I hope that we can, uh, you know, get some attention to, and maybe some more funding from, from our conversation today.
Joe Moore: That’s, you know, amazing. Uh, it’s like, so. Uh, needed in so many ways. And, you know, it’s, it’s the general conventional wisdom.
Joe Moore: Um, and so to be clear, you are, you, you used footage from your session, so it’s you on the videotapes.
Ivar Goksøyr : That’s right. So I’m the patient and I’m also kind of the, uh, the host, uh, analyzing my own, uh, experiences as a, as a patient in, um, this is also important to say from a legal trial, FDA approved trial, uh, healthy volunteers.
Ivar Goksøyr : So it was part of my training, uh, to be in maps, uh, therapist. So [00:03:00] yes, so, uh, so a range of clinical phenomenon will be shown and, and you get to show, you know, uh, how MDMA therapy is delivered and you get the benefit from looking at live, uh, photos. And, uh, and then also we keep the focus on themes that is probably relevant for, if not.
Ivar Goksøyr : Most wounded healers, uh, because, you know, most of us come into this strange profession. You know, while most people would like to have other people’s pain at a, you know, at a certain distance, there are some of us that really seeks to, you know, get closer to, to transform it. And most often that’s because we’ve been, uh, forced to, you know, traverse certain complex emotional terrains from we were kids and many of us have.
Ivar Goksøyr : Taken on certain roles, and, and I believe that, uh, we are very much triggered on some of the core wounds, uh, at a daily basis in our jobs. And of course, we, we all, this is nothing new and we all work on those things. [00:04:00] Uh, but many of us, myself included, even though a lot of supervision and therapy is really helpful and you get, uh, you know, uh, more consciousness on some issues you have, and you also overcome some obstacles, then it is hard to change these more ingrained patterns.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, MDMA known as a catalyst for therapy just stands to reason that it might help, uh, us as, uh, therapists as well as patients. Of course.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So let’s, let’s kind of talk about your professional path. How, how did you kind of take this professional route and end up, um, curious about MDMA and, and, uh, seemingly passionate about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, so, you know, ever, I would say since I was a kid, I, I kind of had this perspective that I, I don’t know, most, most children have maybe a close connection with the light. And I grew up and watched the adults in my life and they seem to be suffering and they seem to not understand their own or [00:05:00] each other suffering.
Ivar Goksøyr : And they were judging each other. So I felt from an early age that there was so much unnecessary suffering going on, and I was kind of shocked that they couldn’t see how beautiful things could be in this world in a way. And so when I started my psychology studies, I was always more interested in the transformative changes instead of symptom management, uh, which is also important.
Ivar Goksøyr : I was always looking for the more depth oriented work. Did my specialization in, uh, in terms of short term psychodynamic therapy. Basically psychoanalytic theory, but with a more humanistic core and a more active approach. And I was very pleased, you know, to be able, uh, with more experience, more training, more self-healing, to reach more people, more deeply.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I got this confirmation that, yeah, this deep transformative healing is possible. However, I also experienced how extremely difficult it can be to release this inherent potential. So, [00:06:00] and the, the more I could help some people deeply, the more it hurt to not be able still to help the majority of my patients that deeply to see the potential and feel helpless.
Ivar Goksøyr : So searching for new strategies and then, you know, a couple of patients told me about psychedelic experiences and then somebody close to me, um, uh, came forth and that’s when I started to really dig in and open up. And, and then when you see all the literature and, and this whole tradition and wisdom tradition that is buried underneath all the stigma, then I really knew that we were onto something important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s how it started.
Joe Moore: Yeah. That’s amazing. And, um, I, I assume, and I don’t want to, well actually tell, tell me this, I, from what I understand, the um. The culture in Scandinavian nations is a little bit conservative around drugs generally in a lot of countries, like UK for instance, MDMA was everywhere, United States, it was very common.
Joe Moore: Um, [00:07:00] but is it, was that somewhat similar, uh, for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, for sure there’s always been an underground scene under rave scene. Uh, but yes, I mean, it’s quite different from like Colorado where you’re at, for example. So I think I, I, I am not sure, but I think that maybe the, the rate of people that has tried MDMA now is around 5% or something.
Ivar Goksøyr : I believe it’s around 20 in the us So, so there’s a big difference in the baseline levels and their attitudes, uh, for sure. Uh, but you know, this, the medicalization track that we’re on here in Norway has really helped, uh, to change public perception these last few 10 years. Um, since I started getting involved.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, yeah, it’s definitely opening up and, you know, more and more, you know, other others and, and, uh, psychologists and even, not yet any doctors, but people come out of the psychedelic closet and speaks openly. So, and that’s kind quite new, I would say. Um, it’s just a handful [00:08:00] of people have done it, but it, it’s quite impactful still, so, yeah.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. That’s, that’s important to know. 5% to 20%. Um, it’s really a big, big shift. So in terms of, um, like were there any kind of organizations where you were paying, paying attention to, were you paying attention to maps in the early days as that was coming along and was that kinda influential for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, yeah, sure. As, uh, as soon as I started ReadUP, uh, of course maps is, is what, what’s what stands out in the MDMA therapy field. So they’ve been incredibly important and they were also our collaborators, uh, on our first trial, uh, and made it also, then we gained experience that we could create our own investigator trial here.
Ivar Goksøyr : So they’ve been really important to us, for sure.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, have you received any kind of pushback in your interest in [00:09:00] developing, um, MDMA assisted psychotherapy and also, you know, for therapist to improve therapists?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, you know, I mean there’s, uh, there’s been a lot of pushback. I mean, when, back in 2017, my first, uh, psychedelic conference in Oakland, and when I started speaking publicly here in Norway, I mean, my friends took me aside and asked me if I knew what I was doing, like this career suicide, uh, thoughts and, and of course I think, uh, yeah, most people had a very, you know, stigmatizing view on, on what we were up to.
Ivar Goksøyr : But I think also there is a certain, you know, a an intellectual, uh, honesty and openness. Uh, so if you can show some numbers and you can show that you’re serious and you, you know, your intention is right and you, it comes from the right place, and that you’re not an activist, uh, pushing things, uh, because you have your [00:10:00] own agenda and preferences, but that you’re actually, um, looking into exploring this in a, in a very vigorous way, then that gains respect for sure.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I think, uh, we’ve, you know, we’ve been able to gain that respect, uh, as, as, uh, you know, um, a serious, uh, we’re, we’re in a serious endeavor here. And when this idea of the, um, pathogen assisted therapy therapies development has been launched, there has really not been that much pushback, uh, I must say. Uh, however, we, we, the first university program in psychedelic, uh, therapy, uh, was, uh, just launched and the plan was to have ketamine as a self experience.
Ivar Goksøyr : Part of that program, uh, that got shut down, uh, of legal reasons, uh, by the health authorities, uh, since there was no legal way to actually do that. So that will probably be a, a longer process to, to gain the necessary, uh, knowledge to understand that this might be a fruitful thing to do. So, but within [00:11:00] clinical studies, it is, uh, totally legitimate.
Joe Moore: That’s interesting. And yeah, there’s probably all sorts of permission. We have a similar structure and issue here in the United States with experience with ketamine. Uh, physicians will prescribe for things like adjustment disorder or, you know, a lot of people legitimately have depression, so for their experiential component on their training, um, they can do things like that uhhuh, but I see how like integrating that with the university would be really hard and you’d need special permission.
Joe Moore: So
Ivar Goksøyr : do you need the diagnosis to be able to get the Ketamine as part of the training?
Joe Moore: Yeah, Uhhuh generally so, but there’s usually a doctor on staff that kind of understands that most people have conditions that would benefit from it. At least one or two doses. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we’re actually addressing clinical benefit, not experience, which is interesting ’cause I like, I do like the idea of giving somebody the experience of the drug despite clinical situation, their clinical status.
Joe Moore: So it’s [00:12:00] complicated though. Regulators are gonna have, you know, I guess their job is to be very conservative.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I mean, first of all, do no harm and, uh, you know, it’s possible, totally possible to respect that and, and to follow the laws that society has laid down and, and, and all that. So I really think just takes time to build up the consensus, uh, in, in the, in the field of psychiatry.
Ivar Goksøyr : And when that is reached, then we can approach the politicians and health bureaucrats and, and make, uh, um, you know, new laws.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. New allowances, licenses, permits. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that’ll be cool, and I’m glad you’re working on that. Um. So let’s dig into this training. This training comes up in about a month.
Joe Moore: What, um, what made you want to develop this program?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so, um, you know, as, uh, therapists, uh, we don’t get to see a lot of the, that other therapists do. I mean, if you’re [00:13:00] co-therapist, yes, but individually you don’t get to see much. And, you know, throughout training, um, there is little also focus on personal development.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s really, uh, under underweight in, uh, professional, uh, development programs. And this is quite serious because what the psychotherapy research is showing now is that, you know, the, the person as a therapist is much more important for patient process and outcome than what method is being applied. So now, instead of studying which method is most effective, because all seem to be more or less equally effective with nuances.
Ivar Goksøyr : Then, uh, we look into what are the relationship qualities that, uh, that could be called evidence-based. So research is showing therapies as a person is really important, but training, uh, as a general rule and estimates, uh, uh, uh, personal growth. And so I, I just saw when I, what happened for me was that I, I [00:14:00] discovered in that MD MA therapy, you know, I went to the route basically of my, of my interpersonal adversities leading me to become a psychology psychologist in the first place.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, you know, I, instead of as a kid, I, I hid, uh, you know, behind this role as a helper and I, nobody kind of tuned into me where I were at. So I developed the ability to find people where they were. And that was also, uh, you know, an epiphany to understand that this was also, you know, out of compassion.
Ivar Goksøyr : But also, you know, because, uh, I needed contact, so a way to avoid being alone. So that’s when I realized, oh, how deeply dependent I was upon my own patience, you know, that I, basically, it was part of my own needs for contact and, uh, you know, and, and also how dependent I was upon a certain progress in their therapy.
Ivar Goksøyr : Like how much [00:15:00] responsibility I felt and, uh, how much I took on. And I, I had this soreness in my, uh, solar plexus, um, more or less, uh, like in most therapy sessions. So when my day at the office was over, I, I really felt a certain level of exhaustion and, and I had this soreness and, you know, uh. Basically overworking.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and the more insecure I was, the more control I did, the more I did, you know? And, and then, uh, the MDMA showed me the little kid, you know, classic inner child work into the boy underneath this role as a helper. And all the fear that I had built in my body, uh, came out, you know, in shivering and neuro neurogenic shivering and stuff.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, and all the pain underneath that, uh, like body armor came. And, um, and there was a lot of linking and understanding. And, and when I got back into my therapy chair, I was surprised really to notice that there [00:16:00] were no anxiety reactions in my body anymore. So, you know, those old feelings of pain and fear, they had been triggered on a daily basis in therapy sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : I didn’t know that. I wasn’t aware it was unconscious. I had just felt this unease, you know, and I had noticed that I was a bit stressed out and I, I had been working really hard, so. When I had this ability to sit unfunded, uh, I wasn’t afraid anymore, uh, because I, I had, you know, released a lot of the feelings that had created this anxiety.
Ivar Goksøyr : I had also experienced this deep inner healing forces, the inner healing intelligence or self-organized with, or, or whatever you would like to call it. So, uh, I could trust that force in the patient much more. Uh, and I could, uh, you know, take much less responsibility. And I was much less driven by my own anxiety and my own need to regulate my own feelings and needs and sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, [00:17:00] and what happened then, of course, is that the patient led the process better and I was much more receptive. So when my body was more relaxed, I could work much more intuitively and, and take in and react much more adequately. And I’m, I am. Pretty sure I can only compare like from before and after and, you know, no systematic observations, but, uh, I know a hundred percent sure that my wellbeing went up a lot.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and I enjoyed my work much more. And I’m sure also that at least, uh, substantial proportion of my patients, I mean, I was effective with some patients before as well, but a substantial proportion of my patients also are doing better, um, in therapy. So, so it felt really important to see this, you know, this potential and yeah, uh, I saw it as a really good way to, to, um, you know, to heal the healers.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, as Marina Sabina said, you are the medicine. Uh, and so [00:18:00] if we can heal the, you know, the therapist, then we can really reach a lot of people, uh, more deeply. So, yeah. So a good way to spread more healing to, to many people.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I think a funny and interesting analogy is the holotropic breathwork training model where you have to actually do a lot of your own work before you’re approved to do the sessions.
Joe Moore: And that, you know, there’s, I guess in the old psychoanalysis frame, multiple years of psychoanalysis before you could do it, so. Mm-hmm. You know, not that they necessarily got a lot of training, they got a lot of insight, um, you know, um, yeah,
Ivar Goksøyr : sure.
Joe Moore: So, yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Go ahead. I really thi uh, yeah, I really think it’s, you know, the, the methods that goes more deeply into the unconscious layers of the psyche.
Ivar Goksøyr : There, there’s always been, uh, a demand that the practitioner has his own, you know, a meditation teacher has his, his own meditation practice. Of course, the psychoanalyst have, has [00:19:00] had his own psychoanalysis, of course. So that need might be, uh, lesser with more symptom oriented, uh, methods. But, you know, psychedelics, they go deep and, uh, yeah, I mean, most people would, even though there are no hard, really good evidence like.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through randomized controlled data supporting that claim. I think, uh, most clinicians would, would agree that therapist self-awareness is incredibly important. And also to have felt how these different methods and, and techniques and attitudes, uh, are experienced, uh, from the inside. Um, so the is quite clear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, of course there are some pitfalls as well. You can, if you have like one strong, for example, psychedelic self-experience, and then you can, you know, over generalize from your own experience and accept other people to have similar experiences. Why? The truth is that they are very different. And I mean, I think also something that I [00:20:00] see sometimes in, in psychedelic, you know, in the psychedelic sphere is that people might have really strong healing experiences and they’re true, uh, uh, but it cannot sometimes lead people to think that they’re more healed than they are in, in reality that there are so many layers.
Ivar Goksøyr : But it can kind of, some, some people can have a certain narcissistic response maybe, or now I gained so much power and I have so, so much, uh, depth knowledge of myself in the psyche, so now I can go out. So, uh, some, there are some pitfalls, but, uh, you know, I, I cause also an, an article, a model curriculum for psychedelic, uh, training.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, it is a strong recommendation, uh, not a mandatory, um, thing, but to have self experience as part of training programs. Uh, so the consensus is pretty clear.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, um, yeah, the consensus is so clear and it’s just so [00:21:00] frustrating that we have to still kind of like figure out how to convince regulatory groups.
Joe Moore: Um, I think, um, can you talk about what kind of data they’ve liked to see? What kind of data was helpful? To present to regulators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so we, we haven’t, uh, we haven’t done that yet. Uh, uh, I, I. Well, I, I, and if I should, you know, make a guess, uh, you know, anything that can actually, uh, provide a link, uh, at least to a proxy that, you know, you, you do something here.
Ivar Goksøyr : You give yourself experience, and then you can see that it actually helps the patients. And that’s, that’s, I think that’s a bridge that is really hard to make because there are so many variables in play. And then, as I said, also from my own experience, uh, I, you know, it’s reasonable to think that, say if you have countertransference issues, uh, some, some people, and I had like some chronic counter [00:22:00] transference issues that came up independently of who the patient was.
Ivar Goksøyr : And that’s true for many of us. But some of us also have, you know, we’re very effective with, with, uh, many patients. But then there are these few that triggers us in ways that we still are not able to, to really, uh, grasp or handle in a, in a therapeutic way. And for, for this. Particular patients, uh, it, it’ll be important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and it’s very difficult and it’s very, uh, you know, costly to, to kind of prove those links. However, I, I do have a certain hope that, you know, combining MDMA with other therapist development, uh, methods and start to explore and start to, you know, find, you know, look at a lot of subgroup analysis and looking at moderating variables, and maybe we can, in the future at some point, see that for, for these therapists, this intervention, MDMA, enhanced [00:23:00] therapies development is actually helpful for the outcomes of, of, of this subset of patients.
Ivar Goksøyr : I think that that can be, uh, reasonable, but it’ll be a, a way, and I I also think, you know, if there is consensus in, in a, in a field, in a, in a, in the medical field that this, we believe this is important and there are a lot of. You know, a good argument can be made. I think that should be sufficient as well.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Right. It is a pretty safe drug. It’s really, well, you know, regarded in terms of clinical effects, so that that plus the consensus, like let’s just hope. We can, you know, put together the data we need to make this happen. I, I’m really, really excited. Um, so how many times have you taught your training so far?
Ivar Goksøyr : So, I, I, maybe it’s five times now. So I’ve had like, uh, around 270 people through, um, and it’s been quite well, uh, uh, [00:24:00] received. Uh, people are talking about how they embark on a self-reflective journey and that they can really, uh, you know, have a lot of recognition in, in what they see. And the, you know, it’s something with watching these unfiltered, uh, scenes with these really deep emotions as A-M-D-M-A or a psychedelic therapist, you know, that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also other emotion, experiential focused therapies that, you know, the, when these unfiltered emotions come out, it really touches our own strings and puts them in motion as well. Uh, so it can really be, um, you know, some, some therapy as well in there. Uh, uh, if you let it, if you want it, and if not, uh, it’ll still be, uh, interesting to, you know, look into, you know, how this, uh, actually can look in real life.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also to look at some quite experienced therapists, uh, working with me.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. That’s great. Can you share a little bit about some of your [00:25:00] collaborators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. So, you know, I’m, I’m the founder of Psychologic, which is a mental health clinic here in Oslo. We are 30, uh, affiliated psychologists, and we have this, uh, cooperation with, uh, uh, the academy clinic here, the leading KE clinic, axon Clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so we’re implementing Ketamine now. So the Axon Clinic is really important for that clinical work we do. And then we also have the hospital, uh, in Ville, uh, which is a county in Norway. Uh, that’s where the psychedelic research team is. So they will be a collaborator on this study. Uh, hopefully it’s not like formally anchored yet.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then you have the University of Oslo where the Institute of Psychology, uh, still not, uh, anything signed or formally anchored, but we’ve had a series of meeting and, uh, the, the right people there wanted to happen. So, um, we just need, uh, of course we need to finalize the grant proposals and project descriptions and, uh, and get the funding.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and then, then, you know, we’ll hopefully let, uh, hopefully gonna let it fly. [00:26:00]
Joe Moore: Hmm. This is really interesting. Yeah. Um, so having that kind of network and affiliation broadly, it, it seems like really prestigious groups and I, I just love that it’s kind of, you know, coming together as if it will be a real project and, and hopefully get real funding and move it all forward.
Joe Moore: So thanks for your efforts there. Um, yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the science funding ecosystem a little friendlier? So like, I think I only know of a few psychedelic programs in the United States that have received federal funding. Um, yeah. Like would, would science funding, um, for you come from at the national level, or would it be like bigger institutions?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so we, we broke through a glass roof there a few years ago, getting the first governmental grant for the MDMA depression study. And then, uh, we got, uh, quite a big grant, uh, from the health authorities again for ketamine study. [00:27:00] Uh, so, uh, yeah, we have had two, uh, two major wins there. And then we’ve also had money from Nors Nors Skin Mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s a Swedish foundation for a second md, a depression study in young adults. And that’s also where I, I’m, we’re seeking our primary funds for this, uh, pathogen assisted therapist training in addition to my s founding some, uh, or funding, some of it, uh, half of my PhD money, uh, can be funded from my clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then, uh, there’s a research council in Norway that I will apply for. For rest of the PhD funding. And then this, uh, training is also helping to, to fund further protocol development and, and get it going.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, yeah. Amazing. So are people back to your training now? Are people from around the world taking your training or is it purely Scandinavian folks?
Joe Moore: Yes,
Ivar Goksøyr : yes. So we’ve had, you know, [00:28:00] Australians, Indian people, we had people from South America, you know, South Africa, uh, all across, uh, states and Canada and Europe. So, and we always start with, uh, greeting each other, hello in our mother tongue. So that’s a cacophony of people from around the world. So it’s really a, a nice international, uh, flavor to it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so I’m very pleased to, to be able to, uh, to bring, to bring that to the world and to bring people together. It’s also inspiring to see how many people, uh, are passionate about this. We also have, you know, plenty of time to have interactions and ask questions. Um, so that’s also, uh, uh, good to have some of that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, yeah,
Joe Moore: outstanding and, um. Can you talk about a little bit about what, what it’s like to actually show your own videos? Like that has to be a little emotional. Yeah. Kind of a big deal, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I [00:29:00] mean, you know, the first time I, I looked into the tapes and they’re quite, you know, they’re, you know, what they say about MBMA, uh, therapy’s, it’s not a no no gay, no pain situation.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, know a lot of the times, and we see it in the MDMA depression trial as well, people have this really affirmative positive experiences reconnecting with love and clarity and, you know, have to have some people have positive feelings in their body for the first time in years, you know, and so some of those clips are really, you know, filled with humor and affirmations and really celebration of life.
Ivar Goksøyr : But then you also, you know, the, the higher you can go the, the deeper you tend to be able to go and vice versa. And, and there are really some really painful. Expressions. There’s, they’re also, so before I showed it, the first time I, I showed it to my wife and I was really curious, what am I doing? And this is this weird.
Ivar Goksøyr : Am I just, you know, being pathetic. Well, even though I knew this is, this is honest, it’s raw, [00:30:00] it’s me. And, and it was important. And it, and it, I think it will be important for a lot of people to be able to watch it because I think it normalizes, you know, it’s not only MDMAs, it’s a therapy or psychedelic therapy that is stigmatized.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, the healer’s own wounding is also somewhat stigmatized. Uh, you know, uh, it’s not that easy. I mean, it’s getting better. I mean, culture might, might differ, but. To really talk openly about the wounding. And it’s, it can be a lot of pride also in US therapists, you know, going into this role. And even though we sometimes may feel like hypocrites, we don’t want other people to, to see that we are very, you know, very human.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, as I say in NS is a therapist’s about, you know, getting the patient in touch with their inner healer. And if we also, through this training and other, of course, uh, things can, the therapist can get in touch with their inner patient, uh, and heal that, I think, I think then, then you will be able to go even further.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, [00:31:00] uh, but as my wife watched, uh, those, some of those first, most emotional clips and, and I saw how touched she she was and how, how, you know, how, uh, how much compassion she, uh, that was elicited in her than I, I got that necessary, you know, confidence to, to, to show it also to broader audience. But yeah, I must admit that I was quite.
Ivar Goksøyr : I, I was clear that I, I will need you guys to, to give some feedback after this. And I mean, these, it’s like five or six years, uh, since I had these sessions. So it’s very well integrated. Um, that’s also important. So, uh, you know, so I say that I have no need for you to kind of protect me or anything, but, uh, this silence afterwards is, uh, is not something so please, and, and of course, just, you know, uh, as, as in psychedelic therapy and as a therapist to just pay close attention to your own [00:32:00] reactions when you watch these clips.
Ivar Goksøyr : One thing is the technical aspects and, and that meta perspective. And another thing is just tuning into what is going on on the, on the deeper levels in the patient and in you. How the patient is a mirror on processes inside of you. And that’s something that we focus a lot of in the, in the course and it tends to, tends to be quite helpful.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, uh, but it has, it has been really gratifying, I must say, because universally, uh, you know, uh, the ra the ratings has been 4.84 stars, uh, from 270 reviews out of five stars studies. So. I also do a lot of lecturing, uh, in other contexts than this course in, in universities and, and psychedelic therapy programs.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and in these teachings I tend to show a, a few more, more short, shorter clips. And, and yeah, I think also there is a, a need and a, and a also a certain kind of hunger for being able to actually look at authentic [00:33:00] clinical footage, uh, in training.
Joe Moore: Right? I think, um, a huge portion of the maps, MDMA training is kind of, you know, pausing and playing and pausing and discussing and, and things like that.
Joe Moore: And I think that’s really helpful. Um, especially given we just can’t do it. Um, so mm-hmm. You know? Absolutely. I think even if we could do it, the video analysis and commentary would be really helpful. Um, yep. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good way to learn. I hope in time we can do that with a lot more psychedelics too.
Joe Moore: Um mm-hmm. There’s very serious differences in how somebody would show up under DMT and Iboga and whatever else, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. No, I, I think that’s key, uh, to, to, to, to build up the video libraries in training, for training purposes is certain, certainly something that I would aim for.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: Um, so could we [00:34:00] spend a little bit of time talking about inner healer stuff? Um, this is a, it’s a complicated topic, at least in America. I don’t know if it’s complicated elsewhere, but I, you know, we, we in our world, frame it as the body knows how to heal. Most of the time we have to set the container properly so that it can, um, and I don’t know how that’s like, um.
Joe Moore: So you’ve, you’ve probably heard the, um, accusations, right? This is cult thinking that there’s some inner healer out there. How do you like to think about it or how do you like to talk about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so, uh, yeah, I’m aware of the critic, you know, and the critics of this being more, having like a concept rooted in spiritual thinking and that it can also lead into this kind of exceptional thinking around psychedelics that somehow psychedelics show you the truth and somehow everything that comes up on psychedelics is inherently benign or [00:35:00] correct, or, and, and the only thing you need to do is you trust it and then ev and it, everything will turn out for the best.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um. And, uh, uh, I, and so I think it’s, uh, it’s an important concept that makes a lot of clinical sense and it has a lot of different names. Uh, but it needs to be seen as, uh, um, a metaphor, not like, uh, uh, you know, it’s not a separate entity or intelligence, but, uh, it is part of our nature and I think it makes a lot of sense to think of us as, uh, you know, we are nature, we are, uh, organic creatures, and the body for sure knows how to heal in many ways.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but sometimes it’s not able to heal itself either. And sometimes it can start attacking, uh, itself. And the psychic can also, you know, uh, attack itself. Uh, and, um. So I think it’s, it’s for sure an really important Ali, and it’s not a new concept. I mean, Carl Rogers, uh, [00:36:00] the principle of self-organizing wisdom, the, the, the therapist only needs to set this certain, you know, the congruence and the positive regard and empathy, the facilitative, uh, psychological factors for the patient’s self-organizing wisdom to take the lead and, and to lead to self transformation.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so it’s really a humanistic and, and beautiful concept, but it needs to be seen as a metaphor. And it’s also important to. You know, to acknowledge that these, uh, substances that, uh, has this great advantage of opening up the psyche, uh, in a faster, deeper way than many other methods, although you can open it as deeply with other methods and so forth.
Ivar Goksøyr : But this, this advantage is also the challenge with a method like the talent is also what can become problematic And, um, uh, and yeah, so, so, um. Uh, [00:37:00] I mean, you know, the, in psychodynamic therapy also, we have this, uh, concept of the Unconscious Therapeutic Alliance, which basically is the same. It is, uh, this part of the patient that has this unconscious will to health in, in the psychoanalytic, uh, thinker auto ranks terms.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, and the, or in Donald Winnekot’s terms, the, the, the, the true self that tries to express itself. Um, so, um, so, uh, in, in, in the traditional training on, in, before we also have this, the main thing you do is to show the patient that there’s, there is this sound part of you, this Healing forces tries to come through, and then there is this fear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of becoming authentic and to letting this true. And then you have the resistances against it. And then the whole thing is about tilting this inner, uh, power balance between the, the forces that want to express and the forces that wants to, uh, suppress in favor of the expressive forces. [00:38:00] Um, so it’s really a, a way of thinking that I, that I, that I’m well aware of and, and trained in from beforehand and it fits really well.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, but yeah, um, to just say that, I mean, it is a bit complicated because in a way it is, it has a lot of truth in it. If you’re able to trust that whatever is coming up is something that you can handle, then this trusting and this. You know, my frame of mind is, is, is actually creating, uh, that reality, at least to a certain extent, but we must be, uh, mindful that this is not possible, uh, for many of us.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and that, um, the risk of, you know, some kind of patient blaming, if you’re not able to, you know, heal from this, then it’s, uh, in a way your own fault or something like that is, but I, I must say I’ve never seen that as a problem in, you know, in the [00:39:00] therapies teams that we have here in Norway and throughout the training and the way MAPS has trained us.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, there is a lot of focus on that, uh, concept, but it, it’s not trained as some, you know, uh, I don’t know. In, I, I think it’s trained, trained in a quite wholesome way. That’s, that would be my perspective on it.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We do need to be really careful about how we talk about it and, um, I think it’s just such Yeah.
Joe Moore: An amazing thing. This is the first time in many years somebody brought up auto rank, so thank you for that. Oh,
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, yeah. You know it, yeah.
Joe Moore: Major influence on Stan Groff and, uh, transpersonal psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Um, breath work as well. Yeah. I, I love that term of phrase, uh, the will to health. I think that’s great.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, and I’m, I’m with you. It’s just I see it in nature. Rabbits [00:40:00] will shake, dogs will shake sometimes to change state. We don’t really have that, you know, we could. Yeah. Um, but it’s, you know, I mean, kids
Ivar Goksøyr : in, in bomb rooms, kids are shaking, but the adults has learned to, uh, suppress it as part of their culture conditioning.
Joe Moore: Mm. Right. Yeah. So there’s just so much there. And, um, I think, say would, would you agree that psychology is just kind of like, generally speaking, institutional psychology is kind of like missing a number of core ideas that we kind of discussed in the past, but we haven’t figured out how to integrate those things?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh. You know, there are a lot of different groups, uh, also in kind of the established psychology, at least here in Scandinavia. And they’re really onto a lot of these things. Uh, some coming from humanistic psychology and emotional focus therapies. And I mean, there’s [00:41:00] also, so I would say there’s, in
Ivar Goksøyr : the,
Ivar Goksøyr : the, the cartoon variant of mental health care is of course very little developed, but at least here in Scandinavia, I think there’s a lot of good stuff coming up.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I, even though there are some differences, and you say, I mean, in the maps manual, it’s, you know, one of the, uh, the sayings there is, can, can what is coming up be worked as, as, um, uh, po possibly part of the healing process instead of being pathologized, for example. And I, I do think that in, in many acute words, that would be a good thing to integrate more.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of course. And also I, I believe that like, say. Uh, this, this the psychotherapeutic culture where you, you, you, you suppose that there is a problem and then you dig to find the problem and, and solve the problem. Then you, you, you run the risk of creating, uh, the problem in by this way of thinking. So to assume that, and this is also a good exercise [00:42:00] for life, to assume that nothing is actually wrong, you know, that this is, this is all happening for perfect, uh, reasons.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, in this society we tend to individualize, uh, too much, you know, both our pride and our shame and, and you know, we’re quite, you know. We, we miss the big picture that, you know, we are part of a really, uh, big picture here, a big web of things. And our free will is probably much more, you know, constrained than we like to think, at least when we remain unconscious.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, you know, we are nature and patterns in nature expressing, and if I had had your genetic, you know, uh, uh, genetics and your, uh, learning history, I would’ve taken the exact same choices as you do in your life. And the same is true vice versa. So I really think it’s important to stop individualized and personalize and, and put so much blame [00:43:00] and guilt and, um, I mean, responsibility is important.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s important to, to wake up and to try to be conscious. And, but at the same time, you know, could your life up until now have, uh, unfolded in any other way than it did? If not, uh, is there anything to blame? And then we tend to compare ourselves, you know, to, to others. And then that’s just nonsense. Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, yeah. Yeah. Maybe deviating a little bit from your original question, but, so yes. I don’t want to, to, I wanna paint a, a too, you know, black or white picture of what is established. There’s a lot of good things going on, but for sure a lot of room for improvement in, in the way we think about things. And, uh, I do think psychedelic can be a, a positive, bring some positives there.
Ivar Goksøyr : And not to say the least to. Integrate, MDMA asso therapy in, in mental healthcare, but also in in somatic [00:44:00] medicine. Uh, for, for some, uh, disorders, I think will really enhance our understanding of how much unconscious emotional wounds are really, uh, at the core of so much of our symptoms and problems and diagnosis, both mentally and, and somatically.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, so I really have big hopes, uh, for that. And, and I mean, back to the inner healing intelligence, I mean, uh, patients, they really, it makes sense for patients because that’s, this is what they experience my, I mean, some people say it’s people that haven’t taken the drug will not understand. You can read yourself like an open book that they really feel, wow, where did that come, come from?
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s so fascinating that you know, all this, all this inside you, this inner wisdom, this intuitive knowing. Uh, so, so to, to give that I think and also as therapists to, to. Be engaged and to be equipped to do that deep transformative work that most of us wants to do [00:45:00] and to, to see how much this inner intuitive wisdom is, is triggered when.
Ivar Goksøyr : A drug and a context is really putting inside you a lot of trust, uh, and, and compassion. And so when you have trust and compassion you, that that’s what we needed to enter truth that is normally painful. And you know, when you’re trustful, you’re not afraid. So when you’re not afraid, you don’t need to defend and you don’t need to defend, then you have access, uh, to your body and to the contents of your mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, so, so that’s really, it’s empowering for the patients, but it’s also very empowering for therapists and, and to be able to step outta that expert role and, and to really learn from the individual cases and from this rapport of wisdom within each patient is really, really precious. And I, I think it will advance the field and the collective, uh, level of consciousness in mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, [00:46:00] for sure. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t mean to like put psychology in, in the psychiatric field in a bad light. It’s, it’s a problem to continue working on, um, if the paradigm stops yielding good results. Maybe we need to broaden the paradigm a little bit. Um, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for instance, like these psychedelic drugs are potentially some of the best drugs we’re adding to psychiatry since Prozac and Prozac.
Joe Moore: Wasn’t that amazing? It was. Okay. Yeah. But it wasn’t amazing. Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Absolutely.
Joe Moore: No,
Ivar Goksøyr : I,
Joe Moore: I totally agree. Yeah. And you know, I, I think, um, it’s okay to critique our fields too. I know we’re fighting really hard to make our fields. Um. Defensible and seem respected and whatever, but like, we also, part of that dynamic, for me at least, is like [00:47:00] confronting, like where are we having limitations?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. And I think, uh, I mean the, the, the, the numbers are clear. Like there’s so many people that we’re not able to reach in mental health care now, so it’s perfectly legitimate to critique it. I just sometimes feel that, you know, to stay out of idealization and devaluation can be really important because devaluation of others, uh, just triggers and idealization of what you’re doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : It, it, it kind of invites devaluation and devaluating others is not something that makes people interested in what you have to, to offer. So to, to have a nuance approach on that. But for sure, I mean, there’s so many people we are not able to help. And, and why is that? And you knows. And we’re talking about, yeah, we know we need more money and more time with each patient, and that’s true.
Ivar Goksøyr : And we need more, you know, better implementation of what actually works already, evidence-based treatments, and that’s so true. Um, but then I also think [00:48:00] that we, we are talking too, a little about the enormous complexity of the task at hand. So that that’s also an a, a good reason why we were not able to reach more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, anybody that has helped try to help a fellow human being that is stuck in deep self-hate or, you know, lack this early re relational imprints of being lovable or safe in those critical periods growing up, how hard that is to, to change, you know, there, there’s certainly no pill you can give anybody, and there’s no procedure.
Ivar Goksøyr : You can, you know, uh, elicit, even though no matter how much the health bureaucrats would like, that there’s no package you can give people. It’s, it’s really hard. And, uh, the mind is complex. And while in somatic medicines you have all these tools, you know, you have, you can take pictures and take tests to know more about the ethology underneath, you know, the root causes of the symptoms on there.
Ivar Goksøyr : On the surface. Uh, and you can also have this robotic [00:49:00] arms that can do these tiny precise procedures behind all these layers of protective tissue. But in mental health, we, we lack these, um, ways to, to get this deeper picture and, and, and do these incisions deep inside with, with very much position. And I, I do think that psychedelics are technologies for mental health that will really, uh, advance, uh, or give us the possibility to, to advance our knowledge and to, to help so many more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : They don’t come without risks, and especially if not, you know, uh, applied within a, uh, a context as is knowledgeable about how the psyche works. Um, so, but with that, I, I really am hopeful. Right. I mean, you see, you, you can look at the, you know, what has happened with ketamine in the us It, it is, it’s not only pretty, I mean, I’m very happy for all the people that have been [00:50:00] helped by ketamine in the us but the way it’s prescribed and, you know, uh, with, without any context and container and, you know, I, I kind of fear I have some worries that similar things will, will be happening to, to other psychedelic drugs.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s something to be aware of for sure.
Joe Moore: And I, the way I frame that, Ivar is like, it’s part of us learning. Like we have to make mistakes before we can learn. Yeah. And what is the optimal container and mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and cost is obviously a big thing, right? So, and I, I kind of know what you’re talking about.
Joe Moore: Some people are talking about at-home, MDMA and, um, not long after at-home, ketamine has had, you know. I, I can’t say bad results yet, but there has been abuse for sure, and there has been sloppy prescription for sure, and people have been hurt. But you know, in medicine people will get hurt. Um, so we have to kind of like, you know, is the standard of care be would’ve been [00:51:00] better for them.
Joe Moore: And that’s a whole thing that we have to work out and science will help us understand it, I hope.
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. I, I like that, that we’re still learning.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Like the idea that we’ve figured everything out just doesn’t work for me. Um, we’re too early. Science is still pretty young like. Double blind. Our cities are very young.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, yeah, 1962 or something, that it became the gold standard and, and yeah, psychologists, it’s, it is a very young discipline. And, and that’s what all those that we’re not able to reach, uh, those that our hearts still bleed for, they are, they are reminding us of that, that we are still a young discipline and that there are tons of things we still need to learn and, and psychedelics are, are learning enhancers, uh, done, uh, used in the, in the right way.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, so we as a field can learn from that hopefully.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so very optimistically, say five years out [00:52:00] from now, what might you hope is a little bit different as a result of the training that you’re putting on, and it’s coming up in about a month.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, well, so, uh, well, I, I, I really hope, I mean, we have 280 people trained and, and then I’ve done all the marketing myself, and now I’m getting the help of you, this platform, other platforms.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so to really reach thousands of, of, uh, participants in, in the next few years that will, and that this course will inspire them. To do ever more deeply inner healing work on themselves and be able to recognize so much more of the processes in patients because they’re not stocking their own anxieties and defenses.
Ivar Goksøyr : And because they have, uh, uh, walk similar paths themselves and have this increased ability to pattern recognition and to really connect and understand what they’re going through. Um, and that even though if they’re not working with psychedelics or MDMA at all, just that, that’s not a prerequisite at all for taking this course.[00:53:00]
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, that’s also part of the feedback. You know, even though if you don’t have much interest to, it’s a really good way to, to, to get some, um, depth knowledge on therapist development, uh, in itself and healing processes in general. So, yeah. So. For, for therapists to do their work. And I do believe there’s a lot of truth that you can’t bring anyone longer than you have brought yourself.
Ivar Goksøyr : However, luckily the patient can bring him or herself longer than you have, but then it will be despite of a, not because of. So yeah, that’s a goal. And also that’s amazing, uh, that, uh, this, uh, and pathogenesis therapist development study will be helped by this course to be funded and to be, uh, to have pioneered a new, uh, frontier in psychotherapist method, independent development, and have inspired, uh, many more [00:54:00] research groups to continue that endeavor, to use this learning enhancer together with a range of, of, of methods to really, really heal and help the, the,
Joe Moore: the healers.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So here’s, here’s something we didn’t get a chance yet, and we chatted about this before. Um, we recorded. Um, was this idea of MDMA being, um, at times more optimal for certain populations than tryptamines, like psilocybin? Um, could you speak a little bit about that?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, there’s a lot we don’t know yet, but my sense, uh, from my, uh, experience is that.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, for integrating into mainstream psychiatry. I, I do believe that MDMA has a special potential because it is easier to work with. There will be less projective processes, there will be less dramatic, uh, traumas [00:55:00] coming up. It challenges our metaphysics to a lesser degree. Um, it requires some, I I, I wouldn’t say that it requires less competency at all, but it’s easier to combine with whatever you’re already doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, you know, MBMA just opens your heart and goes straight into your personal biography, and you can just, no matter what your method you’re trained in, NDMA will help you to see that these processes you’re, that you’re trying to elicit will just become deeper while classic psychedelics. Um, will be much more different, much more, uh, spiritual and much more symbolic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And it can be harder to, to integrate. Uh, and it can, uh, can, can may, it may be more messy and maybe more people will have more dramatic and difficult experiences and, and there will be a bigger chance for, for, for backlash. This being said, uh, classic psychedelics, this is not to speak down classic [00:56:00] psychedelics.
Ivar Goksøyr : They have been shown to be quite safe in a clinical setting. It is possible, uh, but we must remember that the clinical settings in the, in the research, you know, the research settings, they are really tight and, uh, the screening is really tight. So when we open up more, I think, uh, it, it, it requires more to get that right.
Ivar Goksøyr : The potential is huge and there are important, but it just requires more specialized knowledge, um, to, to handle. Uh, the fact that these, that those drugs, they don’t have any inherently anxiety regulating properties, making the takeoff and learnings more, more smooth, like MD Ma, uh, do have. So I think, uh, here in Norway we just implemented, we are in the process of implementing ketamine in the public mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : It was just approved. Um, and, um, and I think that’s a, a good place to start. And then [00:57:00] if MDMA follows, uh, and then, uh, classic psychics after that, I think that could be a good learning curve for the field to make this implementation as wise as possible for the betterment of well people. I, I really think, uh, psilocybin is exceptional.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll see.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Time, time will show. Um, yeah. And let’s be intellectually honest as long as we can about these things. And, um, yeah. Yeah. And
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, it’s, I’m, I’m curious to know, you know, how it will, this is just my fantasies. I mean, and people have so many different views, so Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : I’m, I’m excited to see.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Amazing. Is there anything else that you’d like to mention before we work towards closing up? Maybe you can give the details of the training again.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so it’s coming up the 2nd of November and then the 9th of November. It’s two consecutive Sundays, [00:58:00] uh, three hours each online interactive, a lot of authentic clinical footage and, uh, you know, a little bit on the fundamentals and on the HandsOn aspects, but we don’t do use too much time on it, on it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then we frame what we see, uh, within this concept of the wounded healer, and we do a scientific clinical and, uh, exploration of that archetype and, uh, encourage self-reflection and watching clips and, and processing what this, how this is, uh, for, for each of us. But the main thing is to, to really get to see a lot of end a assisted therapy in action framed within a container that, uh, uh, therapists, uh, tend to, uh, really be appreciative of.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and, and I really enjoy doing that. And I, I, I will also say that I. You know, I, I don’t know. I’m not sure who the audience, uh, this live stream of podcast will be, but [00:59:00] I just think that, uh, each one of us that is somehow drawn to this field, we, we have this knowing that there is something important and yes, do not idealize.
Ivar Goksøyr : And there are all these limits and, and challenges in, in how to release the potential and avoid harm, but this inner knowing or feeling that we’re onto something important and that is really important to, um, to follow that, uh, inner knowing. And it’s really important that we mess it up as little as possible and that we really do our own work.
Ivar Goksøyr : That we educate ourselves in all the ways we possible can. Most of us also have this natural respect and maybe a little bit fearful for, you know, that I can certainly feel that every time I’m initiating someone, it’s hard to get an, a true informed consent, uh, but this certain trepid level of trepidation for entering these deeper realms.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I think we really need to be, uh, aware of the potential, but [01:00:00] also there’s responsibility and, and be really to believe in, I mean, to take seriously both this attraction we have towards the field. And I think each of us can have a special, unique contribution to the field. Uh, and also, uh, to take the, the responsibility that comes with engaging in this field.
Ivar Goksøyr : Seriously. So I, I hope to, to assist in, in those matters.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us and sharing, and I hope people check out the program. Um, check out the blog we have coming up from var. There’s gonna be some good insight there as well. Um, and thank you so much. Let’s, um, conclude here and we’ll hang out backstage for a minute.
Ivar Goksøyr : Great. Yes.
Joe and Kyle debrief a hometown Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork weekend in Breckenridge, then sketch the next chapter for Psychedelics Today: a community-centric model (Navigators) that bundles education, live streams, book and film clubs, and small-group access. They kick around the big “creativity + psychedelics” question, contrast subjective “I feel creative” with objective task performance, and highlight new research—from DMT’s potential in stroke recovery to breathwork’s measurable effects. They wrap with quick hits on MAPS leadership, state policy moves, and what’s coming up at PT this fall.
This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to psychedelics today, Joe and Kyle today. Kyle, how’s it going? Pretty
Kyle Buller: good, Joe. How
Joe Moore: are you doing? Lovely. Excited to do this again. This is two weeks in a row. We get to stream together. Yeah, yeah. Well
Kyle Buller: many
Joe Moore: more to come. Yeah, that’s great. Um, so today we’re gonna do some kind of, uh, analysis on some news articles.
Joe Moore: We’re also gonna talk about a launch. We’re kicking off some future classes and, um, just kind of like the direction of where we’re thinking right now for psychedelics today. So excited to do that with you. Yeah, likewise. So, um, let’s talk about this past weekend. Yeah. Breath work.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. We had a nice breath work week weekend up here in Breckenridge.
Kyle Buller: Um, yeah. Really lovely group of folks. Um, and as I think we were mentioning last time, just yeah, know, it’s always a pleasure to be able to share this work with, with people. Um, and I’m just [00:01:00] always, you know, I, we’ve been doing this for a while, right? And we’ve seen all sorts of different experiences unfold, but, um, I think I’m always just still surprised about like how powerful like breathwork is for folks, um, without a substance.
Kyle Buller: Um, and so it just always, you know, makes me excited that we have this within us and techniques to, uh, and practices to be able to go inward without always needing psychedelics.
Joe Moore: I was chatting with, um, man Singh about his book, um.
Kyle Buller: Shaman. Oh gosh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Uh, the most timeless religion or something like that.
Joe Moore: Uh, throw up a copy of the, uh, cover of the book, um, on the live stream if anybody’s watching the video that Yeah. Shamanism, the Timeless Religion. Cool. And we were chatting a lot about how he thinks that the, the psychedelic, um, kind of like dominance in these narratives, um, around like religion only coming from psychedelics.
Joe Moore: Like perhaps [00:02:00] it’s the case that Sure. Plenty do, but it’s not necessarily the case that all of them do. Right. Like you and I have had plenty of experiences. Non-drug, there were quite extraordinary. Right?
Joe Moore: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah, through
Kyle Buller: breath work, through meditation. My dreams are always very psychedelic and really interesting, um, drumming, right?
Kyle Buller: Like there’s just so many different ways, uh, to go inward and, and have these like connections with the numan and mystical. It doesn’t always necessarily need to be through chemical, uh, means. So
Joe Moore: yeah. And, um, one of his things, um, and I was really happy to chat with him about this, that the three kind of categories that make up shamanism being kind of a non-ordinary state, interactions with the unseen world, and then some sort of services like healing or divination and mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: And that’s just like, you know, a fascinating fundamental definition, um, for like, what is shamanism? And this is definitely [00:03:00] hotly debated, but that’s kind of what he landed on for his book and Right. I just love that.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Because it is an umbrella term, right? Like shaman shamanistic practices look different cross-culturally.
Kyle Buller: Um, but yeah, there’s, are those kind of like universals, like, you know, entering into trance states. Um, also, yeah, I think that service is a big portion. It’s like, why are you going in there? And then how are you bringing it back? I remember when I was chatting with my one teacher, um, years ago, he had a long talk with me about like service and community when doing this type of work.
Kyle Buller: It’s like, why are you doing this? Are you just doing this for yourself? Or are you doing it for the community that you’re in? And like, being of service. Um, and I think that’s also a really important point because we can kind of get caught up in the transcendence of the experiences and wanna just keep going back.
Kyle Buller: Right? And then it becomes a little self-indulgent, maybe a little bit of bypassing instead of yeah, bringing it forward to the community in a way, whatever way that is.
Joe Moore: Right. Um, and this concept [00:04:00] of the magic is already within us. Like the wonder is already within us is kind of like a concept that I love from breath work.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And like, you know, we don’t necessarily need that magical plant or that magical person. You know, I’ve been kind of being a little shitty about this calling, like, you know, shamans like kind of interchangeably calling shamans magicians. Mm-hmm. To like kind of just say like, there’s not much difference, you know, and like sometimes diminutive, and I’m apologize if I’ve hurt anybody’s feelings here, but just trying to make a point that like you have this already in you and doesn’t necessarily require some powerful person with other worldly abilities to do it for you, with you.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Thus breath work.
Kyle Buller: And it’s interesting just thinking about like how like psychedelic ceremonies and plant medicine ceremonies have like shifted over the years and I wonder kind of like where we’re going as a culture when it comes to these like practices and [00:05:00] techniques, right? Like before it was the shaman, the medicine women, medicine man, um, you know, going into those realms, like having years of like, training.
Kyle Buller: Um, and maybe it’s the distinction between like. What is the shamanic role versus somebody just exploring consciousness on their own? You know, and, and maybe that’s something to, to like, you know, differentiate of like how somebody is like working with these states. Um, but yeah, now a lot of people have more access to it, right?
Kyle Buller: Like before it was like the shaman going into those trans states and bringing healing, or I always like Martine Tels, um, definition of a shaman. He’s like a spiritual lawyer trying to make contracts between this world and, and the spirit world. Um, and like just trying to figure out what’s going on. You know, traditionally that’s also kind of like how things were done and now, right?
Kyle Buller: We all have like our autonomy to, to go in there with these medicines and with practices and stuff like [00:06:00] that. But does that mean by just going in there, does that make everybody a shaman? Um, and I think that’s a interesting question,
Joe Moore: right? Like there’s. I think, I think the term is useful in some ways and not useful in other ways.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and we kind of got into that and it’s a really fun thing and I advise everybody to listen to that podcast. It’s really great. I’m excited to dig into it. Yeah. Hopefully next week if I can get it together. Um, but it’s really, really great and I’m excited about the book and I think even, uh, somebody in kind of the psychedelic press UK orbit wrote a review.
Joe Moore: Um, so if you don’t have time for the book, you could check out the review. I think it might have been Mike J who I love his work. Um, masculine book, right? Yeah. Masculine. So many others too. Um, I’m negligent. I need to catch up on his stuff too. So, um, I could say that for the rest of my life, I guess endless.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Which I’m thankful for. But yeah, breath work. It was so good. It was [00:07:00] so good to just be with people again here in our hometown so we, you know, don’t have to travel super far to do it. We have people come to a really beautiful place. Um, we well rested, you know, having to be in our, you know, our own bed.
Joe Moore: This is amazing. And then, you know, we show up really fresh and people can kind of explore nature here. Just gorgeous woods and mountains and kind of at the peak of autumn too, this past weekend.
Kyle Buller: It’s definitely peak foliage season, which is nice. Um, and yeah, it, it has been really nice kind of doing this like in the hometown versus, you know, I’ve been on the road like for the past like two years, well, I guess the past year I’ve been a little bit more settled.
Kyle Buller: But yeah, running retreats all over the place, doing stuff in like, you know, all sorts of different parts of the world. Um. Not sleeping in my own bed, you know, getting, I got really good at sleeping in hotel rooms and other people’s beds. I was like, oh man, this feels like a skill that I can finally get like a good night rest somewhere else.
Kyle Buller: But, [00:08:00] um, yeah, it just felt a lot different to be able to do that, like in your home versus having like travel and do all that stuff and be a little ungrounded at times or dealing with time zone differences and all that stuff. Yeah,
Joe Moore: right. It’s, um, it is really something and there’s, there’s pretty good data that if you’re not sleeping in your own bed, you’re kind of putting yourself at risk, um mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Over time, right? Like, it takes one or two or three days to, to kind of get to that kind of safety. It’s kind of like a natural survival response. So anyway, like when facilitators can show up rested, um, I think it really contributes to the, to the safety and the overall feel of it. So thanks for everybody that showed up for letting us do it that way.
Kyle Buller: Yep.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so I think, um, we’ll have some more dates in the near term. I think this time of year is a little tough for people to commit to. Um, but hopefully [00:09:00] we can do some in the winter and hopefully we can do some in the spring, maybe even in Denver. So stay tuned, everybody, if you want to do that kind of work with us.
Joe Moore: Um, and yeah, maybe, uh, anything else here or maybe we can pivot to the new project we wanna chat about.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, we can pivot.
Joe Moore: Cool. So we’ve largely funded psychedelics today through education, um, to date. And, um, the, the world is changing. How people want to educate themselves is, you know, always shifting. And as a result, we want to keep delivering amazing stuff to you all out there and keep being of service to the community to the best of our ability.
Joe Moore: And what we’ve landed on in part is. An online community, different tiers and monthly fees, and trying to figure out how to move most or all of our education over into this kind of monthly model, which I think could be really interesting. So folks don’t [00:10:00] necessarily have to show up and pay, you know, 200 $800 for individual trainings, which are, you know, high value.
Joe Moore: We’re trying to be as competitive in the marketplace of education as we can be, and often case we underprice ourselves. So, you know, I think. Just people are more accustomed to let me add this subscription on. Maybe I can just join for two, three months and, and bail. Which we hope you stay around. But you know, that’s always an option too.
Joe Moore: And, um, you know, how can we also develop community? Because I think what we saw in vital and navigating psychedelics and our whole breath work, um, careers is the value of community. Even if temporary community is amazing and mm-hmm. Having people with shared experiences on the same platform, maybe we got to know each other in person here or there.
Joe Moore: Like that really adds things to the, to the stock. Anything you want to add here about the why?
Kyle Buller: Well, the community piece, I think is the, [00:11:00] the big piece. And I think just to echo what you said about like, you know, what we’ve learned in vital, it’s like. That has felt just so amazing to get to know people, to like build a community, have people like, you know, participate in, in different ways, whether it’s coming back and like giving presentations or helping, you know, do some teaching and, and supporting that way.
Kyle Buller: And, um, yeah, I think we all crave it too, um, like finding like-minded others to be part of this path. Um, and so, you know, I think that’s another reason why we wanna do it. You know, we wanna connect with you guys too, right? Like, we wanna be able to create this community to be able to connect, hear what you guys are interested in, um, and also help to hopefully provide value through, you know, doing more of these live streams for you.
Kyle Buller: Um, you know, education, all that stuff. So, yeah. Yeah,
Joe Moore: I was thinking about, like, one of, one of my favorite ever conversations is a, a dear friend who’s a classist and, um, knows a lot about the Mediterranean and then another guy, mutual [00:12:00] friend. Now, um, there’s like a world class. Expert on the Mongols. We just hang out, hung out at dinner, chatting about, like, speculating about, you know, ancient drug trade, ancient, like, kind of pre silk road drug trade.
Joe Moore: And it was just fascinating. Um, and one of my favorite things and, and the idea is that when we get together with people in the psychedelic space, often we have overlapping funny interests that we don’t really get to get into in our day to day. Mm-hmm. Like can’t really talk to the. The banker or the grocery store person about this stuff.
Joe Moore: But, you know, niche interests really feed our soul, right? Mm-hmm. Like that’s why like the Star Trek conventions have such a big, you know, fan base and they’ve grown forever. And same with psychedelic conferences. Like people go ’cause they wanna talk to the other people. Um,
Kyle Buller: yeah, and like, just like what kind of friendships and connections come outta that?
Kyle Buller: Like I think about like, yeah, the connections we’ve experienced in Vital or the students have experienced among one [00:13:00] another, and it’s like, you know, we haven’t, I guess, necessarily been doing that for our general PT audience, um, because we’ve been just so focused on vital, um, and continuing to be, but wanting to expand that.
Kyle Buller: And yeah, just seeing a lot of the connections like Blossom out of that. It’s like always really nice to see people from like cohort one still mix and mingling or like thinking about, um, the pizza party that we had at Psychedelic Science, like, you know, we have like 50 plus people there. It was like really beautiful just to see people come together.
Kyle Buller: Um, the friend and again, the friendships, the collaborations, like everything that’s kind of like blossomed out of that and it’s like, yeah, how do we bring that to the larger audience for you that, you know. You’re not gonna sign up for vital, right? It might be a big investment. It might be, you know, time that’s not your path.
Kyle Buller: Um, but you still wanna connect with others, right? You still wanna like meet other people, make friends those connections, chat about stuff. So, you know, we’re depending on, uh, doing yeah, more of these live streams q and as. Um, depending on the tiers, open [00:14:00] office book clubs, um, we’ve always had a really great time running those book clubs in Vital, so it’s like, yeah, let’s do it for the, the larger, uh, PT audience as well.
Kyle Buller: Um, yeah, and then, yeah, some of those top tiers, you get small group access, maybe one-on-one calls with us. So,
Joe Moore: yeah. And I’m excited to bring film, film, clubs and certain levels of art to the table. So, um, getting kind of behind the scenes conversations with psychedelic artists and, and sending some of the tears.
Joe Moore: Art. Um, I also love the idea of, um, figuring out together how we actually want to discuss psychedelic film, like documentaries and then literal like. Films that are heavily influenced by psychedelics. I’ll say two off the cuff that I want to include, like Blueberry, which had an alternative. Yeah, I forget the name.
Joe Moore: I forget the other name. And then there was a, I forget it
Joe Moore: too.
Joe Moore: Um, like everything by Jurowski, obviously, but then, uh, come on, enter, enter the Void. Have you seen that one? [00:15:00]
Kyle Buller: That was big during my college years and everybody was like talking about it ’cause of the crazy DMT scenes and stuff like that. Yeah, that one’s really wild.
Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s, uh, you gotta buckle up for that one. I, I came in cold to a friend’s house, like right around the time it came out and I was like very stressed out, but gripped the whole time too. Mm-hmm. Um, thankfully only seen it once, but yeah, there’s so many films coming out. There’s so much art coming out.
Joe Moore: There’s so much room for us to get together and talk about niche things, um, and help. Co evolve and co-create the future of psychedelic. You know, that’s, I think the name of the game here. Somebody asked me yesterday, like, what is the future of psychedelic community? And it’s like, oh God, you know, like I should have some special insight on this.
Joe Moore: And I don’t know, but I, but I think it’s people finding friends, finding really deep connection and then developing community around that if you can. Mm-hmm. Um, and it’s not necessarily like there’s gonna be [00:16:00] one big psychedelic community that everybody gets along. I don’t necessarily know. No,
Kyle Buller: you need, you need your diversity of community, right?
Kyle Buller: Whether it’s this like larger online community, your local community, different interests. Like, I just think about like, yeah, the different communities I’ve been part of. Like some, some of ’em are just radically different than psychedelics, right? Like, and I think that’s healthy.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So in time, I hope that we can really, you know, get a number of folks in here.
Joe Moore: And this can be how psychedelics today can support you, support, you know, community can support us. And, you know, this is our job, this is what we do full-time, and we want to keep educating as much as possible and putting out as much free stuff as possible and cheap stuff as possible. Because, um, that’s really been our core, like 90 plus percent of what everything we’ve done has been free.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah. And we love that. It’s just like we, I think we just want to keep doing that. But yeah, it’s [00:17:00] also very unsustainable to just give things away for free all the time.
Joe Moore: So if you support that idea, support us and we can hopefully keep, um, keep that going and also do more and eventually build team and, and keep, um, putting more and more out because there’s so much left to discuss here.
Joe Moore: So much left on the table for us to get into for, you know, the whole thing. Like how do we do this safe and safely and legally? What is, what even is safety? Um, what are the actual legal risks? Um, how can we operate in different countries? You know, is that the right move? Um mm-hmm. And what even does like a really, really safe personal practice look like that, you know, if you don’t have the, um, the privilege of doing it in community, what can you do privately?
Joe Moore: And then how do you build community that’s like, there’s so many things. Like what other kind of topics do you think would be useful for folks for us to like, to get into and develop?
Kyle Buller: Um, within like what we’re [00:18:00] doing,
Joe Moore: psychia generally stuff that we can support.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Um, yeah, there is so much, right? Like this is such a multifaceted field.
Kyle Buller: Um, my mind, it always kind of goes towards, I think we’re chatting about this last week, just like the whole technology development. And I think. You know, that is reason to be, I think, more connected. You know, I keep reading all these like studies about like our disconnection from nature, how alienated people are.
Kyle Buller: And I think, you know, that’s one big lesson I’ve taken away from psychedelics, right? It’s like, you know, being able to connect with nature, connect with others, everything’s like interconnected and you know, we are at this like convergence point, um, with like, you know, society, humanity, with like, you know, the way things are going, the technology.
Kyle Buller: It’s like also how does psychedelics help navigate us through that? Um, like is it a grounding rod at times or helps us to like, give some insight? Um, you know, I was just thinking, um. No, I brought this [00:19:00] up last week, but kind of digging back into like all Terrence McKenna stuff again. Um, he just kind of keeps popping online and the stuff he was talking about, you know, like back then, uh, it’s kind of where we’re at now.
Kyle Buller: Um, what he was talking about with like the internet and like computers and artificial intelligence and just like, man, yeah, he was talking about this stuff in the nineties and like, you know, how did psychedelics also impact that, you know, for him? Like, did they kind of like help him develop these ideas, think about it differently?
Kyle Buller: Um,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Yeah. So what was, what were some of the lines? Uh, computers of the future will be drugs and drugs of the future will be computers, is another McKenna lion around this. And you know, I guess let’s talk about that, like this idea of grounding and like in what ways, and this is kind of speculative and kind of going on a little tangent, but like in what ways can psychedelics actually be that grounding rod?
Joe Moore: Like, and then in what ways can they be kind of like the. Um, instigator for, [00:20:00] um, flights away from Nature.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. I think about this like, and I think this is something I’ve struggled with, um, and maybe Terrance also struggled with it too, with like maybe some of his experiences where my previous ex like experiences, I’d have these like deeply kind of like technological type of experiences.
Kyle Buller: Like, you know, Terrence talked about like the machine world, right? And it’s like you could see the future in which if we continue to develop that stuff, maybe that’s where we’re heading to. But then also at the other side, it’s like. Wow. The more, like, I hate looking at my phone on psychedelics, you know?
Kyle Buller: I’m like, I want to be so far away from that thing. It feels like, I don’t know, it just feels like it sucks a soul out of me. Um, and, you know, just staring at a screen. And so that helps me just to ground in nature more, helps me to like, think about my relationship, um, to technology and like, you know, where do I wanna spend my energy?
Kyle Buller: Um, but it’s also interesting right now that, you know, [00:21:00] this is how humans communicate, right? Like we communicate largely online in text, um, through, you know, these types of means. Um, and yeah, I think it’s something to consider, you know, because yeah. And some of this research that’s coming out around just like the loneliness epidemic and or disconnection to nature, and, you know.
Kyle Buller: I keep hearing all these folks talking about like, um, how human experience might be a job, um, in the future. Like paying somebody to go on a walk. You know, I hear Gary v talk about that sometimes, and I’m just like, yeah, are we gonna be so hooked in where it’s like we are looking for like human connection and we’ll be willing to pay for that in a way.
Kyle Buller: Um, and to me that’s kind of sad, but I don’t know.
Joe Moore: I remember how, um, kind of appalled people are when I, when I show them like the app job simulator or, which is just amazing. But the concept is just, [00:22:00] you know, something similar to that. It’s like robots wanting to like, experience what human life was like.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and like, you know, it’s a jokey app, but there’s some truth there. Um, and that’s, that’s interesting. I wonder, I don’t, that’s a little too futuristic for me for right now, right? That that whole concept of paying somebody to go for a walk, but. You know, I shit like I, stuff stuff is getting stranger with AI and, and robotics and I don’t, I don’t understand what’s gonna happen.
Joe Moore: I think that, I don’t think any of
Kyle Buller: us do. I, I think even the people that like have invented it Yeah. Are kind of like confused about like where it’s going.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. So like how do we, how do we kind of just get grounded in ourselves, in nature, in our community and, you know, build the things we wanna build, whatever that is.
Joe Moore: You know, I remember there was kind of like this weird, uh, yet again, Margaret Atwood kind of apocalyptic trilogy called [00:23:00] ORs and Craig. And there were these kind of like post-apocalyptic survivors called God’s Gardeners and they made a whole cult of, um, you know, kind of permaculture survival, but kind of like biotechnology and like, um.
Joe Moore: They, all the Saints days were like, you know, Darwin Day, Gregory, Mendel, like so many different like big biologists, you know, like who’s to say we can’t develop those cultures and like create culture around that. Um, and you know, get really smart. Like, ’cause I think really we need to become really smart and we don’t, it’s smarter than we are and we need it to not be only from ai.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. I might be a, a, a nice segue into the creativity piece, right? ’cause we’re kind of touching on like creativity and intelligence, um, and all of our conversations in the past, how psychedelics can help like spark creativity. And I know like, yeah, you’ve mentioned it quite a, a you know, we’re dealing with these problems where we need creative [00:24:00] solutions.
Kyle Buller: Um, and like, how do we develop more creative solutions? Um, you know, is it gonna be just like. It’s funny. Yeah. Your, your, your comment the other day, contacting the Oracle, um, you know, contacting like GPT, um, you know, ’cause I feel like a lot of us use it, right? Just for like, creative endeavors, like asking questions and stuff like that, you know, or, you know, are we kind of, uh, moving past some of our uniqueness of being human, uh, with that creativity and, and how do we spark that if we get too reliant, um, on, on that?
Kyle Buller: And, you know, I think what, there has been some research coming out of like MIT around, um, like some cognitive decline or creative decline when you become too reliant on it. Um mm-hmm. That was creepy,
Joe Moore: right?
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah. Before we go too deep into this, just if people wanna check out what we’re doing with our community, psychedelics today.com/navigators, we’re gonna talk about it a few more times though.
Joe Moore: So [00:25:00] Yeah. Like, historically in the psychedelic arena. The, the stuff out of, um, Fatman and Harmon’s work, um, back in Palo Alto, uh, Harmon was kind of the lead on that. The idea was that they would get together people who are stuck on creative problems for, um, what was it, at least six months, maybe a year and a half.
Joe Moore: And then they would, you know, have a really tight container about, um, administering psychedelics to, to help them solve those problems. And, um, people would come out and solve the problems. And so that, that is kind of like the historical thing and they had a lot of success there. Um, and then, um, we’re, we’re seeing Center for Minds kind of pick this up and try to like figure out the fundamental neurological stuff.
Joe Moore: Like what is creativity in a really, really micro, um, neurological context. It’s kind of how I’m seeing it. Like okay, [00:26:00] and that, so we need to understand what that is and then we can see if psychedelics. M interact with that thing. Um, but creatives kind of, you know, schools of design kind of have their own metrics already that the, that Center for Minds isn’t necessarily interacting with yet.
Joe Moore: So I think that’s kind of an interesting opportunity. Um, all right. And then, so today we’re gonna talk about this study. Um. Let’s pull that up. I’m gonna try to put it on screen, Kyle. Yeah. But what, what did you, can you kind of set the stage, like describing this study?
Kyle Buller: Yeah. So there was a study that, um, was just published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, which starts to kind of challenge this widespread assumption that psychedelics enhance creativity.
Kyle Buller: And so they did a doubleblind randomized design study. Um, and, but they used kind of like a pharmac was, uh, so it was a DMT plus harmine, um, which was against Harmine alone. And the placebo conditions. Um, and some [00:27:00] of the things that they found out was that it necessarily may have not increased certain types of thinking and creative, uh, processes, uh, that like, you know, maybe we think that is happening, um, during the experience.
Kyle Buller: And I thought that was like pretty interesting to, to read. And again, you know, the, some of the limitations there was like all white, uh, men participating in the study. Um, you know, generally a small sample size. Um, but, and you know, uh, the kind of like the Woca mix, like, you know, is that, you know, I mean Fatman was what Exploring LSD, right?
Kyle Buller: Right. So it’s like you didn’t wanna test some of these other substances here. Um, but um,
Joe Moore: did you catch what school they were at? Oh, Dresden interesting. Um, and then Zurich. Yeah. So, you know, like, I think. In support of the research. Like we have to have baselines like this. You [00:28:00] know, we have to have kind of like, yeah.
Joe Moore: Doesn’t look right. Doesn’t look like we’re gonna do this. And I, I remember Robin Carhartt Harris saying a few years ago, some things along the lines of like, do you really want to be consuming psychedelics before you do x, y, Z tasks? And he is like, based on my data a little bit above microdosing isn’t necessarily gonna be helpful for a lot of things.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, I think that’s kind of a little bit clearer in the data now, but also this is, you know, how do, how do you make a creative breakthrough? And I think this is kind of like setting the stage for us to like develop this as a field, right?
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yep.
Joe Moore: So they did the DMC in harmony and pharma was thing and Yeah.
Joe Moore: That’s interesting.
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Macro level, divergent and convergent thinking and. Macro level creative process dynamics. Yeah. Be interesting to have these folks on to talk about it.
Kyle Buller: I think we should. Yeah. Because Right. That’s [00:29:00] been a lot of like our talk track too, like talking about like the creative aspect.
Kyle Buller: Um, again, you know, it’s like a small sample size. Um, but I did find it interesting Yeah. That like, um, I think the study’s results revealed disconnection between subjective experience and objective performance. So while the participants reported feeling more creative and insightful under the influence, uh, their actual performance on creativity, uh, told a different story.
Kyle Buller: Um, so that’s interesting. Right? It’s like, I think, um, Terrance McKen of talked about how psychedelics like foster funny ideas and Right. I think like when we’re in those experiences, like some of those ideas feel really creative and genius, but then it’s also, you know, how many of them. Are actually really great ideas.
Kyle Buller: Um, and can you actually maybe also move those ideas forward? Um, does it also sound like yeah, there was impaired problem solving? So it, uh, significantly impaired convergent thinking, making participants [00:30:00] worse at structured problem solving tasks, which is like interesting compared to like the Fatman stuff, right?
Kyle Buller: Because it’s like you had somebody, you know, you had these scientists that like, um, were really kind of struggling with problem solving and then being able to kind of dig in. And it also kind of challenges the narrative that we all hear too about, um, you know, Steve Jobs, um, you know, Francis Crick, Carrie Mulli, and all these folks that have like, made these creative breakthroughs.
Kyle Buller: Um, you know, and them talking about how impactful their psychedelic experiences were, um, for some of those creative insights.
Joe Moore: Right. So I think, yeah, I think we owe it to, to ourselves and our community to really dig into that one a little bit more. And, um, I’ve always wanted to, I think this is something that we’re kind of really uniquely positioned to chat about.
Joe Moore: So let’s, let’s see what we can do.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I don’t know. Have you feel like you’ve been really [00:31:00] creative, like on psychedelics? Um, where it’s like been useful? I wanna say yes for me, but
Joe Moore: like, it depends on our definition of creative. Well, maybe that’s an
Kyle Buller: issue too, with the study too. It’s like, how are we defining that?
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Do you remember a Whitehead’s definition of creativity?
Kyle Buller: Um, I could pull it up really quick. Um, um,
Joe Moore: uh, so here we go. In his categorical scheme, in process and reality, Whitehead explicitly states creativity is the ultimate behind all forms, inexplicable by forms and conditioned by its creatures, uh, a k the individual actual entity.
Joe Moore: So there’s a lot there that’s like probably not too easy to understand. Um, but it’s kind of like, uh, hinting at potential is what I [00:32:00] see. And like, how do we actually kind of, um, understand that there’s so many potentialities before they’re actual right? And by when we start making decisions, we kinda like collapse that tree of potentiality.
Joe Moore: And, and, and the tree of potentiality kind of keeps going in kind of big, eh, nearly infinite ways. Um, but what did, what did you find here?
Kyle Buller: I was just pulling something up, um, that I posted on our vital community actually, um, because we were talking about creativity, um, and psychedelics. Um, somebody, uh, did a presentation on kind of like, uh, creativity and flow and psychedelics, and it was really interesting.
Kyle Buller: I pulled up, I started researching creativity, and then I started finding all this stuff that like, um, Whitehead might have been, uh, you know, the c. Like the person that kind of like coined that term. I thought that was fascinating. I was like, [00:33:00] what? Um, right. But, but, uh, this is from Michael Hay, Hal Hay words, woods.
Kyle Buller: Sorry, I’m totally butchering your name. Michael. Um, so he wrote, uh, Whitehead’s development of the word creativity. Uh, namely that he coined this very term, uh, this bearing, repeating prior, uh, to his use of the word creativity and religion in the making in 1926. Uh, this word was not, uh, extent in the English language.
Kyle Buller: Creativity is a term of Whitehead’s own devising in 1925 in science in the modern world, and a year or so before his first use of creativity. He instead used the term creativeness, um, but not on, but only really in 1929 in process and reality, um, that he fully adopted the term creativity, um, as best expressing the mode, um, character and ubiquity of the role of novelty within existence.
Kyle Buller: [00:34:00] Um, so that’s interesting. Expressing the mode, character and ubiquity of the role of novelty within existence and its notion of novelty, which is key. Creativity is the principle of novelty, an actual occasion of novel entity, diverse from any entity in the many which unifies. Thus, creativity introduces novelty into the content of the many, which are the universe.
Kyle Buller: Uh, destructively. The creative advanced is the application of this ultimate principle of creativity to each novel situation. It originates.
Joe Moore: Makes me Whitehead
Kyle Buller: terminology and all that stuff
Joe Moore: makes me think about McKenna, who didn’t necessarily get Whitehead from what I understand. But I think like this idea of novelty generation, I think there’s, I think there’s a lot there.
Joe Moore: And I think like if we go really far out, we can get some really big ideas. And this is kind of like some of the [00:35:00] terminology we’ve been using lately, right? It’s like the medium-sized ideas of what we really wanna bring back. Not something that’s so radical that we’re never going to understand what’s happening, but something that’s radical enough that it could help the community, um, and be implemented.
Joe Moore: And, um, yeah, I think like everything else always needs to be like contextually, contextually appropriate, right? Like introducing ideas that would be amazing for like the 13 hundreds and x, y, z region of the world doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the case here now,
Kyle Buller: right? Yeah.
Joe Moore: Thus novelty and creativity.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. I mean, I feel like psychedelics definitely. I don’t, well I guess it’s also a bias objective perspective. Like, you know, it does create like novelty, you know? I feel like the psychedelic experience is very novel in so many different ways. Um, but I don’t know. Yeah. I’m cool. I’m interested to see if anybody else like, picks up this research and kind of [00:36:00] starts to like maybe do a larger sample size, um, maybe more reliable tests and stuff like that.
Kyle Buller: ’cause you’re right, I think it’s also, yeah. How are we defining creativity? How are we defining all this stuff as well? Um, is it also the outcome, you know, like maybe, um, you know, some of our thinking and structure isn’t really great during it, but like also doing some like long-term follow-up, right? Like maybe somebody had an idea wasn’t fully formed, but, you know, a year or two later.
Kyle Buller: Did that, you know, come into, into being in a way? Um,
Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. I think there’s so much there. Um, and, you know, so much room for improvement in science, just generally, like, I want to see more science, I want science to be radically well funded, and I wanna see people competing for ideas and competing for who’s right.
Joe Moore: And it’s kind of like one of the fun, more fun parts about it. Um, I think I’ve been frustrated about lately, Kyle, is this idea of like, um, and I don’t know how to solve this, um, but we [00:37:00] saw, um, we see people kind of creating the same data sets and they want like, really uniform and, and they’re only using it for like one trial, right?
Joe Moore: Like, um, I was reading some on autism recently and eventually autism researchers actually had like a standard set of ways of surveying people. Then they just shared all the data and they shared this giant data pool so that they could actually mine for all sorts of insights on this giant global situation.
Joe Moore: And like, how could we develop some sort of collaborative process to make science, you know, more science come out more regularly, um, at lower cost to everybody. And I, I don’t know, like I’m, I’m kind of like dreaming pie in the sky, but it has happened elsewhere is kind of the point. And I think maybe when, when, when we were kind of like deep in the, uh, early phases of the COVID situation, we had [00:38:00] similar collaboration.
Joe Moore: Right. Hyper funding from different governments, right?
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so we’ll see. We’ll see. Maybe we can do that. Um, so let’s talk about this other one. This one’s really fun. Um, strokes. What did, what did you learn about this stroke problem?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, this was really interesting and so there’s some studies done around using DMT, uh, to, um, and this is mostly in animal models, in, in mice so far.
Kyle Buller: Um, but how it could actually help, um, post-stroke, um, so like with inflammation and, and stuff like that. Uh, and which is like really interesting ’cause I actually chatted with somebody a while ago, um, where they were talking, I think they had a mild stroke and they started actually using mushrooms, um, to help out with, with the symptoms there.
Kyle Buller: Um, [00:39:00] so yeah, uh, some of this research where this, uh. Uh, yeah. Uh, it was published in the Science Advances. Um, and here in this article it says, the results market significant step towards, uh, a, a step forward in stroke research as current, uh, treatment options for stroke remain limited. So, researchers found that DMT offers a dual mechanism of action.
Kyle Buller: It protects the blood brain barrier and reduces inflammation in the brain, um, suggesting that it could complement existing therapies, um, or form the basis of new, more comprehensive treatments. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s really fascinating,
Joe Moore: right? Like, um, I think there is a pharma company working on this. I think they’re called, uh, Algernon Pharmaceuticals, right?
Joe Moore: Um, and I, I don’t know really anything about their status, um, but I’m, I’m just like glad it’s happening. Uh, and then. Where, where was this study happening? I [00:40:00] didn’t really recognize any of these names. Oh. At savo. So maybe this is, Hmm. I’m gonna, I’m gonna actually share this article on the screen so people can follow along.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, it’s just really exciting to see that we’re, we’re not just, um, exclusively keeping, um, science in like this kind of couch based model, a couch therapy based model, sorry. Um, that there’s like broader horizons. And that’s really, I think, a, a thing that you and I have been excited about for ages.
Joe Moore: Right. It’s, um, yeah. You know, really great to see that it’s not just psychotherapy.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Right. There could be so many more like implications. And I’m glad like you’ve been getting loud about at court also too about like all the pain stuff and more of like physical implications with psychedelics here, um, than [00:41:00] just versus like the psychotherapy oriented approach.
Kyle Buller: Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just, I just think about like, um, you know, my uncle had two strokes and he actually I think went for stem cell therapy over in Germany years ago. Um, and just thinking like, yeah, could this be helpful? Um, and it’s kind of interesting to think about, yeah, psychedelics being, um, an application for, you know, post-stroke recovery, if it’s possible, you know, I know this is still early in animal models, but,
Joe Moore: right.
Joe Moore: Um, in this, in this stuff, I, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Algernon people are actually administering it to humans at this point. But this is a different set of research that’s happening. Um, yeah. Not like I understand any of these charts at all, but, um, you know, that’s why people have scientific training and we can talk about it.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, so I think, um. [00:42:00] Just really excited about this. Stroke is really scary. Stroke is really common. Stan Groff had a stroke. I actually wonder if his recovery was aided by his kind of history with psychedelics. Hmm. Um, yeah, I think at a certain point folks, uh, say like, you know, after 80 they’re like, I don’t know how many more times I need to do this.
Joe Moore: Um, right. You know, I have suspicions about Albert Hoffman, but, um, who knows? Um, yeah, and I, you know, I, I, the, the diseases I make jokes, like dark jokes about me getting in the future is like cancer and stroke. So just like really happy we’re looking at it here and I think, I think there could be some interesting, um, interesting, uh, things for different cardiac events.
Joe Moore: Just seeing how, like, this is kind of. Laid out, like, um, [00:43:00] uh, maybe I think that’s a little too speculative. But yeah, I’m just, you know, happy to see this is happening. Um, I love how rigorous this paper looks. Um, it looks like it’s really contributing substantially. So, thank you authors. Thank you for the whole team that did this.
Joe Moore: Oh, look at this. So there is a little bit of a tie here to Algernon. Okay. Um, company had no role in the design of the study. Um, EF and zn, I don’t, um, we’d have to look up top to see who those are, but we. But there’s only two of the total authors had like a stake in or advisors for Algernon. It probably means they’re paid cash and or have like stock or something like that.
Kyle Buller: Algin. Are they also like working with five MEO or they just strictly DMT. Oh, I thought I saw
Joe Moore: some stuff about like, these folks never gave us money. Everybody. Um, we’re just looking it up. ’cause like this is somebody that, uh, so they’re [00:44:00] looking at Alzheimer’s, which is great. Um, their pipeline looks like they’ve got two drugs.
Joe Moore: They’ve got a DMT here. Um, you know, obviously, I don’t know, like these, these code names are just like, what, what biotechs do? AP 180 8, right? Like, what are you talking about? I think that’s just how they make patents so they can like get investors, um, yeah. To do this stuff. But it looks like they’re doing just straight up dimethyl tryptamine and end dimethyl tryptamine.
Joe Moore: Um, and then let’s see what this other drug is. Um, chronic kidney disease, so they’re doing something with kidneys, um, that doesn’t appear to be anything we know about. So, um, yeah, excited to see, um, see how they’re, how they’re looking. I think, I don’t know. Like I, I pretty sure they’re in people. Yeah. See phase one.
Joe Moore: So they’re already in people. Um, they’re about to, looks like phase two starting soon, which is wild. Um, [00:45:00] cool. So that’ll be in more people. I always think the consent conversation here around stuff like this is fascinating. Like, how are you actually getting stroke victims consent if they’re unconscious?
Joe Moore: And I, I think, um, you know, after a stroke you could be really impaired, so how are you, how are you doing that? So I’m sure they’ve worked that out. I would love to chat with them to see how they’re doing that.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. I imagine they’re probably working with people that are able to give consent, but who knows,
Joe Moore: right?
Joe Moore: It could be families, right. Right. Um, but who knows? We’ll learn more in the, in the future, and this is pretty good news. Um, maps decided to finalize their executive team. So the board of directors, I think, um, named Betty Aldworth and Izzy Ali, co-executive directors, they’re no longer interim co-executive directors.
Joe Moore: This is a permanent thing for them. That’s great. Um, I, I remember a while ago, um, when they were both just, um, interim, I was like, [00:46:00] I don’t, I don’t know who they could put in that would make me feel really good about maps. Mm-hmm. Other than Izzy, um, like, because I didn’t think they were gonna keep the, uh, co-ed thing.
Joe Moore: I always thought they were gonna go for one. Right. But I was, I was chatting with Betty, who I, I really appreciate, so smart, so passionate. Been at this for so long, this drug policy thing forever and ever. Um, chatting with her, um, at the Santa Fe conference recently. She’s like, I don’t, I don’t know that I would ever actually want to be the sole ed ever again.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Of an organization. ’cause her last, um, it’s a lot thing before MAPS was SSDP, I think Ed there. And that’s like a handful. It’s a lot. Yeah. And like, um, Betty and Izzy have just a long career kind of working together too. Izzy was a, I think on the board of SSDP for a while. Um, yeah. And I, I don’t know, do you remember, do you remember this story?
Joe Moore: I, I met, um, Betty in 2017 at the Oakland conference, [00:47:00] like one of the after parties. Um, we were just like hanging out, shooting the shit. I didn’t even know who she was. I’m just shooting the shit at the back of some like, dance floor DJ thing. Um, you know, I just, um, making jokes about hula hoops or whatever and I was like dying and she was so, so great and she’s always been like.
Joe Moore: Really, really helpful to us. Yeah, so Izzy’s always been really helpful. I’ve actually called Izzy on a few emergencies and Thank you Izzy. Um, like help, I don’t know which way is up anymore. Um, like, what do I do here? He’s always been so helpful too. So just really excited that those two are leading the charge and I think their vision is really robust and excited to see what they wanna do.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, huge. Congratulations, Betty and Izzy. You guys will kill it and, um, yeah, hopefully steer the ship in, in a really awesome way.
Joe Moore: Yeah, I know it probably hasn’t
Kyle Buller: been easy in the past, like year or two, three years, however, yeah.
Joe Moore: Oh, incredible amount of work. Um, so I, [00:48:00] I know Betty was kind of like comms director for a long time at Maps, so we had some conversations and like would kind of get like, uh, embargoed news and, and things like that.
Joe Moore: And, and I, I would, I would call for strategy and, and sometimes offer my unsolicited opinion. And, uh, it was really just a, a, I don’t know, lovely relationship and I’m hoping I’m in touch with, um, somebody over there to get them on, uh, the show in the near term. And I, I’m excited about that and we’ll hopefully get some intel on, on what they’re up to in the near term.
Joe Moore: Sweet.
Kyle Buller: Awesome. Yeah, I would love
Joe Moore: to
Kyle Buller: hear some direct updates from, from those folks.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so any other news that you thought, like, interesting to point out?
Kyle Buller: I haven’t been keeping up with much of the news, uh, cycles yet. Um, I feel like I need to, you know, dig in, but you just released a whole bunch in our recent, um, email you just sent out like a bunch of psychedelic news.
Joe Moore: Yeah, this week’s, [00:49:00] um, this week’s news roundup. Let me see, let me see how I can share this list. Um, I, I just was like really, really excited to be able to do this. Um, and yeah, I found, uh, found out that it’s not, not like a really intense amount of work for me to do this and I actually appreciate it ’cause I get to stay, um, in the loop on what’s happening in the world.
Joe Moore: Um mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyle Buller: Um, there was this interesting article that just came out in, on September 2nd, so I guess a month ago. Um, I haven’t dug into this at all, so I don’t know if I wanna chat about it, but, um,
Joe Moore: go for it
Kyle Buller: sis. Scientists reveal how breath work unlocks psychic bliss in the brain. So high ventilation breath work while listening to music was associated with ports of blissful states, reduced negative emotions accompanied by increased blood flow to emotional processing.
Kyle Buller: Repeat the brain. [00:50:00] Um, so yeah, super fascinating. Um, so this was, um, yeah, so just saying breath work while listening to music may indu blissful states, um, in practitioners accompanied by changes in blood flow to emotional processing in the brain. According to a study published on August 27th, 2025, in an open access, uh, journal, PS.
Kyle Buller: OS one by, uh, Amy Amol, uh, Carter. Um, so yeah, I’m excited to dig into this one a little bit more. I’ve been just trying to dig into more breath work research. We just had a short at, well, I guess not short for online, an hour breath work session within Vital yesterday. Um, and getting a lot of these questions too around like, you know, how can psychedelics like produce these, or how can breathworks produce these psychedelic like states?
Kyle Buller: Um, so I’m excited to, to dig in, uh, to, to more of this.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I think, um, the [00:51:00] breathwork science is coming. Yeah. You already have a good amount of it. Um, but it’s, it’s coming. Yeah. So here’s just kind of like what I sent out. Um, yeah, just, just so people know what it looks like. There’s a big list of news articles, kind of mostly chronological.
Joe Moore: Um, there’s this really interesting, um, I. The fact that Hamilton was on Vice, again with Shane, I found really fascinating ’cause he is always had so many critiques about the news the Vice will put out. Um, but Hamilton was also on, um, the five cast. Interestingly, I don’t know if you saw this drama, Kyle, they actually put it up about a month ago.
Joe Moore: Um, they
Kyle Buller: took it down.
Joe Moore: They took it down, and then they put it back up. Um, on, on, uh. I think Saturday of our breathwork weekend. Yeah. Um, so I wonder what they pulled out? They were making jokes about getting sued. Um,
Kyle Buller: right. Yeah. That’s what I was like. They started off with stuff like that or they used that little like clip to start off.
Kyle Buller: So Yeah, I [00:52:00] imagine, I wonder if they were getting into some like pretty heavy things here and there that they needed to clip out, um, for li liability reasons. Right,
Joe Moore: right. You know, some people have a lot of money for attorneys. Um. Yeah. And so, you know, all sorts of stuff. So, uh, there’s just headlines, right?
Joe Moore: Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommends ibogaine for therapeutic use. So it’s looking like that’ll be coming sooner than later. Um, there is also the whole thing about Colorado requiring Nagoya compliant Ibogaine. Mm-hmm. Um, as of now, AMBIO is the only people with, apparently publicly. I got, I got kind of some funny conversations about this.
Joe Moore: The only company with, uh, Goya compliant Iboga. I’m like, eh, is that real? Like, I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve not done done enough digging, but they’re very insistent. But it’s people who are like deeply in that world. But then there’s the whole thing, like how do we get Iboga in? Um, there’s, uh, a new Iboga doc coming out really soon.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, I think later this month or in November, [00:53:00] um, that’ll be on Netflix. Um, Alaska is working to gather more signatures for their legalization bill. Um. A cluster headache study was funded psilocybin trial. It’s gonna be great. Um, but they’re using like DMT pens now. I think I told you that one, right?
Kyle Buller: I don’t think so. They’re using that for cluster headaches. Oh my God.
Joe Moore: Totally. So you have a cluster coming on at any point in the day. Could be in the middle of the night, you’re like, oh my God, this is gonna be a nightmare. How am I gonna do this? And like, I have to go eat like two, three grams of mushrooms or something, whatever the dose is.
Joe Moore: Could even be a gram and a half. But it, you know, that sucks to have to do it one in the morning to ab poor cluster. Um, and, uh, they’re having How do you even prepare for
Kyle Buller: that? You’re just like, I’m gonna, like, you don’t, you’re just like,
Joe Moore: it’s cluster headaches are so horrible that anything’s better. Yeah, yeah.
Joe Moore: Like these, it’s so bad that often you’re just bashing your head against the wall and or killing yourself. Right? Yeah. So like it is, um, the most painful condition we [00:54:00] know. Um, it’s up there with, uh, like it’s hard to rank these things. Chronic regional pain syndrome might be on par, um, but yeah, it’s really, really nightmare.
Joe Moore: But DMT smoke it. They can go right back to bed. Aborts it right away.
Kyle Buller: So fascinating. And that seems so, yeah, like, so accessible, right? Like not having to, because I’ve had friends that would like dose for migraines, um, and they said they would take like anywhere between like two and a half, three grams like every month or something like that, just to help to manage.
Kyle Buller: But yeah, it’s also, you know, a lot like what happens if you don’t really wanna go on these like, huge trips every month, uh, just to manage like migraine pain, but to have like a shorter acting, uh, psychedelics. I hear Ds in the background there. Lower, um, yeah, like a shorter acting and accessible, right?
Kyle Buller: Just taking like a hit, like that sounds really awesome. Um, to be able to like have that as an option for people that really struggle. Do they [00:55:00] understand like the mechanism of like cluster headaches, of like what’s going on there?
Joe Moore: It is an orphan condition with not enough research. Um, so yes and no. Um.
Joe Moore: But yeah, so I, I think Yale’s coming out with some data in the near term on the d the DMT pen thing, so they’ll have even more data. Um, no, like there’s, there, it’s, it’s such a rare disease that like people haven’t really funded it all that well. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So in time we’ll get more. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll try to get somebody on to talk about that.
Joe Moore: ’cause DMT pens are really fascinating. There’s a new, um, new book on, um, one of Leary’s, um, closest confidants. Rosemary, I’m really excited to read that one. Um, yeah, what, I think you covered this, a kind of crazy amount of contaminants in Oh yeah. Um, mushrooms, uh, well, product sold as mushrooms commercially.
Joe Moore: Um, and there’s another one last week. Yeah. [00:56:00] This other one here. I think. Um, let’s see. Uh. And this one is a good headline. Psychedelics picked far more neurons than expected. Mm-hmm. There is one about, um, psychedelics not helping postpartum moms as well as we thought initially. Thought. Um, come on, where is it?
Joe Moore: Um, it’s in here. There’s just roundup. Yeah. Which is
Kyle Buller: like crazy, you know, like when we started off like doing this stuff, like it was really hard to find news articles about, you know, what’s going on and, um, I mean, yeah, it just shows the interest is really increasing, uh, over the years.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Athletes turn to band IGA for CTE and concussion relief.
Joe Moore: Um, a lot of really interesting things there. Uh, I may or may not be one of those athletes. Um, and yeah, there’s so much happening. Massachusetts is getting active again and um, that’s good. Yeah. Let’s work towards wrapping up here, Kyle, I think like [00:57:00] we have this advanced shadow work class coming up. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Kyle Buller: Yeah. So, uh, October 20th, as a Monday, we’re gonna kick off an eight week course with Dr. Ito Cohen. Um, we run this every fall around spooky time of the year. Um, seems like it aligns. Um, and we’ll cover the shadow. What is the shadow we’ll get into how to work with the shadow, um, more from yeah, this Jungian depth oriented approach.
Kyle Buller: Um, and this time around, um, you know, we wanna make it a little bit more practical for folks. Um, and so we’re gonna make it, yeah, more advanced than, uh, say in the past in, in what we’ve been doing. Um, so yeah, if you’re interested in digging into the shadow, learning how to work with the shadow, learning how to work with it with clients, um, and not just the shadow, but also the golden shadow, which maybe you’ve heard me and Ido talk about in the past.
Kyle Buller: Um. Yeah, we only have, I think a few more seats [00:58:00] left. We’re, we’re getting to capacity, so if you’re interested in, in digging into all the shadow material, um, during Yeah, the, the fall, which the shadow season is upon us soon. Um, yeah, we would love to have you there. I always love teaching with Dr. Yo Cohen.
Kyle Buller: Um, and it’s gonna be a fun class, so, yeah.
Joe Moore: Great. And then, um, finally, let’s just circle back to navigators. Everybody. We’re really excited about this navigators program and, um, I think it’s, it is kind of gonna be a huge part of the future of psychedelics today and vital, and we really want to invite you to be a part of it.
Joe Moore: There’s a number of tiers of, of getting in starts at 9 99 a month, and, and you can go up from there. Um, if anybody, uh, you know, has questions, psychedelics today.com/navigators, you can email us, ask some questions there. Um. And like info at psychedelics today would be a good way to get us. [00:59:00] And then, um, yeah, we would love to see you in the community book clubs, film clubs, regular group meetings, um, early access to content, ad free podcasts.
Joe Moore: So much more so, you know, check it out. Um, anything you want to add about it?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I would love to see everybody there. Um, again, we’re really wanting to build out the, the community there, get in, get involved in all sorts of different ways, connect with you, host events that you guys might be interested in.
Kyle Buller: So yeah, a show saying the book club ad free podcasts. We’ll do these live streams where you can jump in and do some q and a. We’ll probably have some exclusive live streams with folks that, um, you know, you guys can do. Again, I look at the tiers, it’s all kind of tiered out that way as well. Um, and, uh, yeah, really excited to, to be launching this and developing the community on the PT side of things.
Kyle Buller: Like obviously we’ve been doing that through the podcast, through events, um, but I feel like a lot of our community building has been really focused and vital. And so to be able to [01:00:00] expand the things that we’ve learned about that, um, to our wi wider audience, for those that, you know, vital ISS a big investment that might not be part of your path, um, to really start to bring it to the larger.
Kyle Buller: Larger PT community and our supporters and listeners. So yeah, if you wanna support us, if you wanna join our community, second alex today.com/navigators and we’re excited to, to launch this and meet you
Joe Moore: over
Kyle Buller: there.
Joe Moore: Alright everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. Uh, we’ll get this out on a regular podcast soon and just really appreciate you all being part of this project that’s been amazing over the last nine and a half years.
Joe Moore: So coming up on 10 soon. Crazy. And um, good god. Yeah. Learned a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah. So thank you Kyle. Thank you everybody and we’ll see you all in the next episode.
Kyle Buller: Alright, thank you everybody. Take care.
Joe and Kyle celebrate Vital Cohort 4 and reflect on why Vital is more than a 12-month psychedelic-informed training—it’s a living community (alumni webinars, discussion groups, cross-cohort meetups). Many grads aren’t rushing to facilitate; they’re choosing integration, harm reduction, education, and local community building. Next cohort dates are TBD —applications and email sign-ups are open.
Breathwork in Breckenridge (this weekend)
Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork returns Fri–Sun. The last workshop reinforced how powerful the format is for bonding, somatic processing, and ongoing peer support.
Music & tech: fail-safe playbook
Why community matters now
With AI accelerating “dead-internet” dynamics, trusted human networks—book clubs, film clubs, local meetups—are essential. Skills for the moment: digital security hygiene and discernment (evaluating claims, sources, and inner signals).
News & trends
Harm-reduction notes
Beware gas-station/head-shop “psychedelic” edibles labeled as “proprietary blends.” Ask for COAs and clear ingredients; understand test-kit limits (chocolates are tricky). For injections (even “legal” clinics), ask about sterile technique, water, dosing, and sourcing.
Get involved
This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hi everybody. Joe here with Kyle. How are you doing today, Kyle?
Kyle Buller: Pretty good, Joe. How are you doing? It’s, uh, been a while since we’ve done one of these.
Joe Moore: It’s, um, not fair to us or the, or the world, so I’m glad we’re finally doing it.
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, so, um, today we get a lot to chat about.
Joe Moore: We wanna chat about like our community platform, breath work that’s coming up, uh, this weekend. And, um, probably some news items that are gonna be worth discussing too. So yeah, very excited to get into all of it. Um, yeah, and I guess congratulations to us and, um, for graduating Vital Cohort four. Just, uh, was it this past Sunday?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, this Sunday, cohort four. So if you’re chiming in here, congrats. And yeah, it’s been a journey, so yeah, it’s been been awesome.
Joe Moore: It’s really, really cool, um, to have finally been a part of a [00:01:00] graduation. Like I saw you and the rest of the team do it. I’ve, you know, popped in and watched a little bit, but like Vital, vital was kind of traditionally yours and like I backed off.
Joe Moore: So it was like really cool to kind of see that and, um, participate and, uh, yeah, it was just, you know, an, a very great experience for me. How was it for you?
Kyle Buller: You know, cried a whole bunch as as usual. Um, which is always pretty funny. I never always think I’m gonna get that emotional. But, um, yeah, it’s just, I think just like the connections that we make in the program, um, it just so heartfelt.
Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, it was, it’s always really nice to, you know, it’s sad and nice to know that people are now out there in the world and hopefully, you know, showing up in their communities in whatever way that they feel like they, they wanna show up, whether they’re educating or doing harm reduction integration, hosting retreats, just creating spaces for other people.
Kyle Buller: Um, it’s, it’s just really nice that we, there’s a lot of people [00:02:00] out there doing really awesome work, but yeah. How was it for your first time?
Joe Moore: Um, it’s kind of like emotionally overwhelming to just know that we’ve been able to help people. Um, kind of unfold who, who they want to be in the space, you know?
Joe Moore: Yeah. And just do like the adventure of self-discovery around their, you know, psychedelic future and how they want to show up and where they, what they want to do. And yeah, it was just really, really amazing ’cause it is so meaningful to people to be able to, you know, feel competent enough to share this stuff in, in helpful and safe ways.
Joe Moore: And, um, yeah, I just, I was pretty overwhelmed, honestly. And I’m just really grateful for everybody, you know, sticking with us. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, like how do you, so I guess like, not everybody listening knows all, everything about Vital, right? Like, it’s our world, so we assume it, but how do you, how do you like to talk about vital these days?
Joe Moore: Like, what is it? [00:03:00]
Kyle Buller: Yeah, I feel like it’s like shifted a whole bunch in, in ways. Obviously, you know, it’s been, um, pretty consistent where I’d say, you know, it’s our 12 month training program and psychedelic informed practice harm reduction integration. Um, so, you know, getting people really spun up on, you know, how to support people that are having psychedelic experiences, whether it’s on the, the prep side, um, for those that are, you know, doing stuff in the underground and decrim areas, really getting spun up on all the ethics of space holding and, and all that, uh, stuff.
Kyle Buller: And then the integration. But I also over the years, have felt like it’s just more than that. Um, it’s really turned into a community. Um, and I feel like that’s been a very large focus of vital is the community aspect of it. Um, really cultivating the relationships, cultivating the community between cohorts, um, and, you know, thinking about.
Kyle Buller: Like some of our [00:04:00] experiences in in Dream Shadow with that being a community. I think about like my time at Burlington College, it was a very community oriented program where it was just also beyond just learning. It was really about, it’s really about the connections that you’re starting to make with folks.
Kyle Buller: And so in some way, I feel like that is essence of vital, is it’s really community focused. Um, and I hope that shines through and it does, it does seem like that, um, with all the students that, that come through the program and all the touch points that we have too, right? Like we have like little meetups.
Kyle Buller: We do. Webinars on Mondays where some of the alumni come back and present on topics. We also have another group where we just have discussion groups that are a little bit more informal just for cohorts to mix and mingle and, and have discussion and learn from one another. So it’s, yeah. It’s also, I think, beyond just the theoretical learning aspects of it and really trying to foster that community so we can all lean on each other, um, as we always like to say, we can’t do this work alone and we [00:05:00] need people.
Kyle Buller: And so, um, I feel like that’s where, um, vital really kind of shines through.
Joe Moore: Right? Yeah. I think in a lot of ways we were trying to bring forward what we got at Dream Shadow and give people similar opportunities for kind of connection and, um, kind of, uh. It’s funny, right? Is it, is it a non-directive approach?
Joe Moore: Is it not? It’s kind of like a little bit of both. Um, yeah, and I think about that in the psychedelic container too. It’s like, is that really non-directive or is it Right. You know, a mix of growth. Exactly. Is it? Yeah. Right. It’s, it’s kind of like a scaffolding and we help you kind of climb through it and navigate your way through it.
Joe Moore: And, um, yeah. So where do you want to be in the space? Like, you could be anywhere you’d like, the, the rules right now are not very firm. Um, there’s certainly some legal consequences and we make sure to include a lot of those in our education. So, you know, be careful and be safe, everybody, but you know, there’s also edges.
na: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Edges are where the most [00:06:00] interesting stuff happens. I think
Kyle Buller: that is true. And yeah, you know, we, I think anybody getting involved right now, like we are, everybody’s kind of pioneer on the forefront, right? Like the things are just getting developed and so it is confusing to try to navigate like, where’s my place?
Kyle Buller: How do I show up? What do I do? Um, as like a new field is emerging. Um, and, you know, people that leave vital go through, you know, a lot of people don’t end up doing any sort of facilitation, right? They, I’ve heard this multiple times. They’re like, you know, going through this program has taught me a lot and taught me like, maybe I don’t want to do this right now.
Kyle Buller: I need to learn more. Like I’m more interested in. The harm reduction and integration aspect, or I’m really interested in just creating community groups and being an educator, um, and, you know, stuff like that. And so, you know, it’s been really cool seeing, um, a bunch of our students go out there in the world and, and do stuff.
Kyle Buller: Like at psychedelic science was really nice. There was like, I think four students that had booths there. [00:07:00] Um, and they’re all kind of showing up in their own ways, whether they’re promoting like their retreat center or they’re offering education offerings in, in different, uh, like their, in their specialties.
Kyle Buller: So yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah, that was definitely a really special feature, um, for us, I think, to seeing the success and the, the being out there in the world. Not even necessarily financial success, because that’s like, not necessarily primary, but just the fact that you’re out there in the world and active in the thing that you really wanted to be active in and, and contributing.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, um. Yeah, if folks wanna learn more vital psychedelic training, we don’t have our dates firmed up yet. Um, vital psychedelic training.com. We can learn more about it there. Um, what can we say about it publicly at this point, Kyle? I don’t, I don’t think we have all that much we can say,
Kyle Buller: yeah, we don’t have the dates yet, but we are looking at either like May or September, just trying to figure out some scheduling things.
Kyle Buller: So, um, if you are interested, you can just go to the [00:08:00] website and then, um, you know, you could put an application in or sign up for, uh, emails just so we can stay in contact. Um, but yeah, we’re just ironing out a few details for our cohort. Six, if you are interested in, in joining. Yeah.
Joe Moore: And then, um, let’s talk about what’s going on this weekend.
Joe Moore: We have, uh, we’ve been kind of pushing for a while to, uh, market our, uh, three day, I guess two day two two day plus, um, breath work, workshop, dream shadow, transpersonal breath work, kind of a graph style, breath work method that we learned, a dream shadow. Um, what do we wanna say about that?
Kyle Buller: We have that coming up and it feels really good to be offering, um, breath work again.
Kyle Buller: Um, felt like I took a little hiatus after some of the vital retreats. Um, but yeah, we have this, uh, weekend workshop coming up Friday to Sunday up here in Breckenridge. So anybody’s listening that’s in the Colorado area that wants to come up for the weekend to do some breath work, we do have some spots open.
Kyle Buller: Um, so it’ll be fun. And it’s [00:09:00] beautiful up here right now. Leaves are popping. There’s snow on the peaks. Um, it’s a really beautiful time of year to come visit. Yeah,
Joe Moore: so pretty right now. Um, yeah, and I think our last workshop was just like so good for us, uh, for others too, but really primarily like we did.
Joe Moore: We, I would have really, I think, really good feelings about it and just was so good to be back in the saddle again after such a while.
Kyle Buller: I was gonna say you, that was like a first workshop for you in a number of years, right?
Joe Moore: Like, I don’t know that I. Really facilitated a full on like two part breath work session since before COVID.
Joe Moore: I might be wrong, but like I don’t, yeah, I haven’t really been in it for a bit and it felt really great to be back. Yeah. Thank goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, just, you know, the thing that I know really well, um, and I’m comfortable in that space and it was just, you know, good to be there and definitely good to be with you.
Joe Moore: [00:10:00] Uh, learned a bunch from you on the somatic front, um, which is great.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Minus the little bit of the, the music hiccups here and there.
Joe Moore: Right. Nobody noticed it sounds like they didn’t tell us they noticed at least. But you know, the idea is like, there’s, there’s a lot of, um, things to know about music and, and breath work and psychedelic sessions like, um.
Joe Moore: There’s so many possible points at which equipment can have issues and we want to kind of like work towards, you know, how can our systems be really kind of bombproof, but also have a backup.
Kyle Buller: You’re always thinking about that. And like, I think about it a little bit here and there, ’cause I’ve never had any like big hiccups, but like, how do you think about like, music backup and like psychedelic and breath work sessions where it obviously plays a really important role, um, in one’s experience.
Kyle Buller: So like those hiccups can also really cause a little bit of like, I don’t know, confusion with folks where all of a sudden the music stops and you’re in it, or there’s weird [00:11:00] like, artificial artifact noise coming through and you’re like, what the hell is this?
Joe Moore: Right? So like we can kind of name that we use this kind of like audio processor, um, because the outputs from a laptop aren’t really like producing like the, the most rich audio.
Joe Moore: Um, and so like. It’s never failed before in years and years. So we, we had a failure. I didn’t really check the stars to see if there was something up there, but maybe, and then, um, it was, it was kind of felt really glitchy and like digital weirdness was going on and we just didn’t know what to do and we had a hard time kind of solving that, um, in real time.
Joe Moore: Oh yeah, that was like the most intense kind of, um, music failure I’ve been a part of, which is fascinating. I’m glad we were able to do it together. Um, but like Lenny talks about having like a, like a generator backup at his house for audio. Um, worst case you can put on a little boom boxy thing. Um, I like, I like to have [00:12:00] multiple different kind of things, so, you know, a little Bluetooth speaker, like I have this little small little Bose thing.
Joe Moore: That’s nice. Um, and then, uh, you know, typically we’re using like a relatively big size PA system. I, I personally have like three different. Oh, geez. If we put in the, like the DJ control, there’s like five different mixers that could be used for that kind of a situation that we do. Um, and I bring two at least.
Joe Moore: Um, so if one fails, we can flip over to the other. Sometimes that gets stressful though. Um, and then like any, any individual piece can fail, um, at any point. And there’s no way to really tell, just like, you know, hard drives used to explode all the time, right. And we could never tell. And how much music have we lost as a result of that crap?
Joe Moore: Tragic. Um, yeah. And, uh, yeah, then, you know, can you, can you have a backup? Like, historically, I never thought, like [00:13:00] my DJ equipment at the mixer and beyond like speakers and, and all that would fail. But they, they can, so what I would do historically is I would have the, um, a PC playing a Wave file. So there’s like very little happening, um, like wave, like there’s not really much computing required ’cause there’s not much compression, there’s not any compression really.
Joe Moore: So like the computing power should be really small. Um, and I use an app that hasn’t really ever failed on me, like VLC. Mm-hmm. Um, really popular media player. Um, and that’s like really low computing requirements as well. I think it’s even open source, which is, yeah, it’s pretty lightweight. Yeah. And then, um, I’ll have secondly a audio device into two other channels that’s actually playing in real time, a playlist.
Joe Moore: Um, it could be my breath work playlist. Could be something else. Could just be a track on loop. Um, and so if the audio on like channels one and two start failing, I bring up three and four from my phone or [00:14:00] iPad or whatever it is. And then, um, there’s very little loss, um, of like time. With music, with the, with the people breathing.
Joe Moore: So I think like that’s how I historically did it, but now that maybe the mixers are, sorry, are failing, and like how do we, yeah. How do we actually understand like what part of the equipment’s failing? Um, so you kind of have to like be somewhat technical, somewhat competent with your equipment. So that’s why maybe don’t overcomplex, uh, make it too complex at first.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, start simple and build and stay comfortable with your gear. Um, yeah. So I don’t know, did you, did you have any kind of like takeaways.
Kyle Buller: Um, well, I think like testing your gear out. ’cause that was the first time I used my laptop, I think, on that mixer or the output with all those speakers. And like, I’ve never had an issue with like that weird digital artifacting that came through.
Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm. And so I wonder if it was like more power or something that was sucking out of the computer, [00:15:00] um, or computer needing to, to do more. Um, but, you know, I think I always will. So I, I typically use like flack files and I use a program called Mix. So I’m able to like auto DJ and like real time, like mix things in case
Joe Moore: Slack doesn’t have compression either, like Right.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It’s like really light. Or maybe it does have compression, but it’s really light. Yeah.
Kyle Buller: And then, um, yeah, ’cause sometimes I like to mix live. Like there’s the songs coming up and I’m like, eh, it’s not really gonna fit here. I kinda wanna switch it up and, or I notice like, you know, things maybe I need to add something.
Kyle Buller: Um, so I always. We will create a duplicate of that on Spotify. And so that’s what we ended up doing. It’s like, thankfully I had that, um, on Spotify as well, so we could just switch over, um, as like we were starting to have some of those weird digital artifacting hiccups there in the middle of a session.
Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, I think always having a backup, um, is really [00:16:00] important, um, when, when you’re doing this stuff. But yeah, testing, testing all the equipment first. Like I think we didn’t do extensive tests with it beforehand. Um, no. And so that was like really the first time, like running my computer on, on a system like that.
Kyle Buller: We should check it
Joe Moore: again tomorrow. Yeah. What I realized is we could actually use like headphones like this Yeah. Um, to actually have a, like simulate that like kind of say, is it the output from this? Or, ’cause we didn’t, I don’t think, had earbuds even to plug in and check. Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s complicated and generally folks, you’re not gonna have a problem.
Joe Moore: When you do you want to have a plan, like exactly the equipment, exactly. Like these days it’s really solid. Like Windows doesn’t really crash all that much anymore. Mac doesn’t really crash that much anymore. Um, there’s types of devices that crash even less like a, like a real DJ mixer. Like if we throw up like my big DJ controller and plug in a USB and play, [00:17:00] like these things are designed to play big festivals and the stability is crazy.
Joe Moore: Like, yeah. Um, even Skrillex’s laptop has crashed when he is playing live. So like that’s kind of probably have a backup computer though. Right, right, right. What do we have three computers there? Yeah. Which is nuts. Which is really crazy. Um, and we still couldn’t like figure out what was going on. Oh, what was it?
Joe Moore: No, my, one of my laptops just wasn’t producing audio outta the headphones port. Um, the other one I think had some weird issues too. It was a really surreal experience, but I’m glad we got to the other side. Yeah. I don’t
Kyle Buller: think I’ve ever had that many, like tech hiccups, like doing music stuff and I think it was a good lesson learned of like, yeah, prep all your stuff, like test it out, make some like backup plans.
Kyle Buller: And then as I switched over to my phone too, I was like also thinking. Oh, I’m not connected to the wifi, so I can’t like, go into like airplane mode to like cancel any calls. If this is streaming from my phone on Spotify, if a call comes through, it’s gonna [00:18:00] disrupt the music. And like, so then I was like kind of panicking, like, oh man.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. What if like a call comes through like as we’re streaming this through the phone, that’s gonna be really disruptive. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s like all these little things you don’t think about. And then yeah, you need to like be on your feet real time to try to problem solve so it’s not so disruptive to, to folks.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And take notes here. There’s a lot of really good gems here that you, you know, learn from our mistakes. We make the mistakes so you don’t have to. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, uh, do not disturb, uh, mode sometimes works, but sometimes the song will interrupt and you don’t actually know until you test it and like, do you actually ever really know?
Joe Moore: Um, ’cause these things update and like software changes every day, so you don’t know really how it’s gonna play. Um, so be careful out there. That’s why I liked the, um. The old school iPods were really great, um, with the hard drive and you can just kind of plug right in and that was lovely. Um, but you know, there’s limited limitations [00:19:00] there.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Obviously our files were like, my playlist, it’s like three to five gigs. ’cause it’s a wave file, it’s giant. So like it could even fill up those, those things. Um, yeah. But yeah, the sematic work that we got to do there, the, the kind of group processing work that we got to do there, the group bonding, like I think the group’s still talking to each other, which is amazing.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, we, we heard that they got to together and did like a party in the front range, which was really cool. So it’s just like lovely to see that. A workshop like this that, you know, we believe in this format quite a bit. I think so. You know, just seeing it again and again and again. Workout. Great. It’s just always so reassuring.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. It’s nice to just be able to share it with folks too. Um, yeah. ’cause how impactful has it been in our lives? Right. Just to be able to like, share it with other folks. Mm-hmm. It’s really nice, really special.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So, um, that’ll be coming up Friday, so tomorrow. So [00:20:00] if anybody’s in Colorado wants to join us, rec breath.com or psychedelics today.com/events, you can learn more.
Joe Moore: Um, we’d love to have you still time and, uh, what else is going on? Um, yeah, we’re trying to launch a kind of membership site here to get people, um. Kind of a little bit more active in our community. Like we’ve had this kind of, um, online Facebook alternative. It’s just us, uh, for a bit now, and it’s been great.
Joe Moore: It’s mostly vital folks. Um mm-hmm. And there’s some patrons in there. I think we have 33 paying patrons is what I saw the other day in the, in that platform. And that’s been really fun, um, to see that and really helpful for us. So thank you everybody that’s participating like that. It helps a lot. Yeah. Um, and yeah, we’re trying to figure out what do folks want.
Joe Moore: I think we’re gonna bring in, um, exclusive content, hopefully figure out ways to include courses, maybe some courses that we’ve had out for a while. And, and I think what, we have five courses in development right now that might be [00:21:00] included there. So, you know, stay tuned. Um, and we’d, we’d love and need your support.
Joe Moore: Um, but yeah. Kyle, what are you excited about about this community platform?
Kyle Buller: I’m excited just to like, yeah, you know, we’ve had this, um, and just to like really engage with it a little bit more. So like having kind of like exclusive live streams like this, doing more of it. Um, also, uh, I. Book clubs, like those are always really fun to just like get together and like talk about material that way.
Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, I just feel like, you know, we’ve been really engaged in the vital community for the past few years. Um, hence why like, I don’t really podcast as much as I used to. Um, but yeah, really excited to just gauge the engage, like the, the larger audience, our, our whole PT audience here. So, um, yeah, it feels like we’ve been very kind of like focused on the vital community and um, yeah, now trying to um, open it up, you know, I think we’ve learned a lot through that and like creating [00:22:00] that and then just being able to open it up, um, to outside of folks that yeah, vital might not be a great fit for Right.
Kyle Buller: It’s a, it’s a pretty big, um, it’s a pretty big commitment and yeah, I’m seeing David there in, in real life events for sure. Yeah, that is part of the plan too. We wanna do more in person events for the community. It’s really, I love this overlay.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, for sure we’re, we’re working on, um, in-person events more regularly.
Joe Moore: Um, I’m traveling a bunch in the near term, so I’m hoping to say hi to folks in the northeast, like Philadelphia. Um, Boston. There’s a chance New York, but I’m not sure. It’s a kind of logistically complicated, but if anybody wants to help me in New York, reach out, I would love that. Um, but yeah, just getting together, even if it’s for a short meal or sandwich or whatever.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Um, I want to do bigger. More robust events, especially for the vital community. But you know, that takes resources and time. So the more support we get [00:23:00] here, um, in our community platform, the more we can, um, spend our time actually developing those in-person events to mm-hmm. You know, bring value and, and, you know, community and much more.
Kyle Buller: But having a lot of these conversations lately just around like how we’re just entering this age of like high tech and AI and um, yeah, we can channel Northern California for you as well, David. Um, but, uh, yeah, just how important it is. Like, I was just chatting with somebody I think last night, um, just how.
Kyle Buller: You know, community is gonna get us through, um, you know, some challenging times. And I think again about like going through some challenging times and having like the dream shadow community there for me and for everybody else. Um, but yeah, like as you know, we just kind of enter this like crazy digital world, um, where yeah, everything feels like really artificial.
Kyle Buller: Like yeah, being able to come together, um, in person online, to like really, um, you know, cultivate, uh, [00:24:00] human relationship. I think it’s gonna be really, really important as we progress into the AI age of whatever the hell it’s gonna bring to us.
Joe Moore: So, you know, that’s an interesting point. Like, I, I think we should name, um, dead internet theory.
Joe Moore: By way, David, I’ll, I’ll be, I’ll be in, uh, San Francisco, November 7th for the Heroic Heart Gala. Uh, maybe we could hang out before, after that. Anyway, the, um, the idea is that as more and more content becomes generated by ai, it’s, it becomes somewhat recursive and problematic in that, um, the data that’s getting cited is actually bad data.
Joe Moore: ’cause it was generated previously by ai, by AI and Misattributed. So there’s becoming this like, really scary problem. And, um, at a certain point, at what point does the internet become totally not useful, um, or at least radically less useful? Um, you know, in situations like [00:25:00] this, you know, we’re, we’re still doing okay because we’ve read a bunch of books and lived a lot of life, um, and, and know a lot of folks.
Joe Moore: Um, but yeah, like who’s to say Wikipedia is even gonna be all that helpful in a handful of years. Once, um. AI has had its way with Reddit and like the citations get really, really complicated. Yeah. So in-person, community is gonna be really important. Getting to know people and trusting people. I, I hope folks like us can still, you know, maintain some sort of sense of truth and, and help everybody cut through the bs.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I don’t know. What do you think?
Kyle Buller: Uh, I’ve been listing revisiting like Terrence McKenna, um, over the years. Um, or not over the years, over the past, like month or so, because I remember years ago I heard him talk about, um, this archaic revival and he was talking about how in the future people are gonna just be living in their own little worlds and that there’s gonna [00:26:00] be the computer chip behind the eye.
Kyle Buller: Um, and we’re gonna be interfacing pretty much with like augmented reality, like through like a, an implant like that. Um, and. Then, you know, there’s that whole announcement of like the meta glasses coming out and it’s not too far off. And like I just, I, I think that it, it’s just really interesting to hear Terrence talk about this stuff in the nineties.
Kyle Buller: Um, and kind of like just, you know, and Terrence had all sorts of crazy ideas, but it’s like, I feel like we’re getting closer to like what he was actually like, you know, talking about back then. Um, and I just always come back to like his, I think it’s like titled his last interview where he is just like, it’s just gonna get so weird that we just gotta talk about how weird it is.
Kyle Buller: Um, and I feel like we are hitting this point in, in human, human history where it’s getting pretty weird out there. It’s very psychedelic in a way. It’s like very confusing.
Joe Moore: Yeah, it is. It certainly is. And um. Again, having that kind of [00:27:00] community that can handle complexity and can handle stressful stuff and crisis with you and, and more is, is gonna be just increasingly important.
Joe Moore: So, you know, build that we can, you know, leverage our community with you. You know, you can join us. Um, but definitely build something locally for you too. Um, yeah. And yeah, whatever it is. Gardening club. Yeah. You know, seed swap, book club, whatever those local, yeah,
Kyle Buller: those local communities are really important.
Kyle Buller: You know, I think that helps with like resiliency when like, things are kind of like getting really shaken up. Um, so yeah. You know, have like your larger community, also have your local communities, um, and have a diversity of community. I think it’s, it’s really important. Um, I like Debbie’s comment here. I came for the psychedelic state for the community.
Kyle Buller: I always actually said that about like the breath work too. It’s like, came for breath work first, but ended up really kind of staying for the community and started becoming more about the people than, than the experiences.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. [00:28:00] I’ve seen a number of communities and they’ve, they’ve done interesting stuff.
Joe Moore: I, I think I started seeing Discord kind of explode with communities around that like NFT hype cycle a bunch of years ago, which is interesting. And just saw people kind of communicating in all sorts of interesting ways, not just about like magic internet money go up kind of stuff. Like it’s, you know, sharing news and memes and jokes and like, you know, there was a culture around some of them that was actually real as opposed to purely just kind of greed culture.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Which was also there for sure too. But, um, it was just fun to see that and I was like, oh, okay. Like we can do something here. Um, and you know, I think in time we didn’t, I, I’ve always been a little kind of skeptical on discourse, like, that seems like just a little edgy to put psychedelic community because, you know, um, it’s somebody else’s servers.
Joe Moore: It’s not really all that, you know, they could shut you down. Um. And, you know, even our community, it’s not all the way private, right? Like it’s [00:29:00] hosted somewhere. So, you know, if you want to do hyper secret stuff, like the Internet’s probably not the best place for it, but it still doesn’t mean you can’t help each other and communicate.
Joe Moore: And then take it to signal if you need to, then take it in person if you need to. Um, and, you know, we’re here for kind of helping with that scaffolding. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, what kind of content do you need? What’s gonna serve you in the projects that you have going on? Not just like, you know, cool trip stories, which, you know, those are fun too.
Joe Moore: But also, you know, what are the helpful stories that are gonna help you build the thing that you want to build with people?
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, so we’re open to questions, so I think most platforms can ask questions, so please do. Um, yeah, I’d love to just kind of interact with you all, um, and see what’s going on out there for you and see what we can kind of like interact with, I think.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, finally, just please check out our community, psychedelics [00:30:00] today.com/navigators. Um, we’re gonna be putting up all sorts of like, scaffolding there and higher level memberships with more access to us and, um, the community and, you know, just stay tuned for all that. Um, I think we’ll have that kind of announced in the next handful of days, hopefully.
Joe Moore: Yeah,
Kyle Buller: we’ll, we’ll be rolling it out over time.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So, um, let’s see, what else here? Um, what are the skills important to learn at the moment? Um, David to asks that question, I’ll put it up on the screen for everybody watching video. Um, so. It depends on where you’re at. Um, you know, I think, uh, I think understanding how, how you could get in trouble digitally is a really good one.
Joe Moore: So there’s that digital security class I’ve taught a handful of times. We’ll probably have that in the community in the near term. Um, if you want coaching or consulting on that stuff, I’m open to that just hit us up. Um, but the idea is like, how are you [00:31:00] exposing yourself and what are the actual risks? Um, are you covered legally?
Joe Moore: You know, are you actually working with lawyers appropriately? There’s so much to this. Um, and, uh, I don’t have a broad enough view into what every community is like in the psychedelic ecosystem, so I can’t really say. Do you, do you have any thoughts on, on to where he’s, uh,
Kyle Buller: yeah, and I, I’m kind of just taking that too, like what are important skills of like, the times?
Kyle Buller: Um, and one thing that comes to my mind is, uh. As you were kind of talking about like dead internet theory and like all this other stuff, it’s just like our discernment. Um, and really trying to get in touch with that a little bit more because, and you know, that’s also really relevant for psychedelics, right?
Kyle Buller: It’s like you get a message, do you necessarily believe it at face value right off the bat? Um, or it, um, you know, do you sit with it a little bit? And again, you know, now everything. I think we’re just entering this [00:32:00] like new age of like. Yeah, you see some videos and you’re like, is that real or is that ai?
Kyle Buller: You know, it’s like, it’s really hard to tell what’s true, um, anymore, which is like, kind of concerning. So I think like our just discernment is more important than ever. Like, you know, and also like, you know, what are we taking in like, ’cause obviously all this stuff like affects us on so many different levels.
Kyle Buller: So, um, yeah, like how are you, how are you taking in information? How do you discern information? Um, it’s all, I think, like, really crucial right now. Um, ’cause there’s a lot of noise out there in the world. Um, and there’s a lot of, lot of, a lot of weirdness as I guess Terrence would say.
Joe Moore: So much weirdness.
Joe Moore: Yeah. High weirdness moment. And yeah. David, if you’re talking, if David, if you’re talking about like survivability and like prepping, um. I’m not necessarily all that fluent on what’s going on today. I don’t know, um, [00:33:00] what to really say, but community is gonna help. Um, so getting together, I think, uh, in my permaculture class it was like, um, if you have a hundred people in your kind of circle with all the right skills, like you can kind of flesh out kind of a really great society.
Joe Moore: Um, and, you know, there’s specialist skills beyond that, but that’s where societies can keep interacting, uh, with each other. Yeah. Um, yeah, I like, I like the Chomsky, anco, cynicalist kind of model where it’s kind of like hierarchical unions that are kind of, um, voluntarily kind of associated and, and kind of cooperate too, so, mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: It’s important that groups kind of interact and negotiate skillfully and we kind of like decrease coercion over time. Hopefully. Hopefully. Um, because consent, uh, matters, I think. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, definitely. I dunno if the government agrees still, but maybe. Um, so we’ll get there, get there in time. So just keep hope alive.
Joe Moore: Um, [00:34:00] and uh, yeah, so I think like what kind of news have you bumped into lately in the psychedelic arena, Kyle, that’s got you interested in, um, curious.
Kyle Buller: One I posted about maybe last week. Um, and, you know, maybe this also comes back to discernment as well, and, and what you’re consuming. Um, it was a study that was published, uh, in Oregon, um, surveying 11 different, uh, mushroom products.
Kyle Buller: Um, I think 10 of ’em were gummies. One of ’em was a chocolate bar. Um, but none of them contained psilocybin. Um, they came back with like all sorts of different other, uh, you know, ingredients. Uh, and you know, I think if we’re, you know, you’re talking about consent, um, having informed consent of like what you’re ingesting is super, super important.
Kyle Buller: Um, you know, some of them did contain psy. Um, you know, I feel like, you know, I think that that’s pretty legit. Psilocybin ilsy, right? Psilocybin converts into psilocin. But again, [00:35:00] it’s like, you know, do people know the dosing? Do people know what they’re ingesting? Um, and yeah, some of these products just didn’t have any sort of psilocybin or psilocin in it.
Kyle Buller: Um, most of, I think some, some came back with like THC kava, um, some of them were just functional mushrooms. Um, I don’t remember everything off the top of my head right now, but, um, you know, that is a bit concerning ’cause people just see these products and they go, oh, this is legit. Like, people are doing really good marketing.
Kyle Buller: Um, and then just not having good, uh, informed, you know, consent here around like, should I est this? Do I know what I’m taking? Um, and I actually, it’s, it’s such an interesting thing and I, I might have mentioned this like on a podcast a while ago, but. I was down in, um, I was down in Key West back in March and uh, after I went down there for a wedding and me and my friend decided to go down to Key West just to hang out for the weekend.
Kyle Buller: And, um, it was really interesting. There was all [00:36:00] these like hemp shops within like, I mean, there was just one after another after another, and a bunch of ’em had these signs that they were selling psychedelic mushrooms. And so I decided to pop in there and, um, see, hey, what, what’s going on here? And I asked the guy, I was like, Hey, like, what’s in these mushrooms?
Kyle Buller: He’s like, I can’t tell you. And I was like, what do you mean you can’t tell me? He’s like, uh, it’s a proprietary blend. I, I can’t tell you what’s in it. And I’m just like, well, that’s kind of sketchy. I was like, is it mus al? Like he is like, we don’t say that word around here. And I’m like, and I was like, I, you know, I was like, I work in the psychedelic industry.
Kyle Buller: I was like, I’m just like highly fascinated about like how you guys are like getting these workarounds or, or what’s actually in these, these, these bars and, and products. And he just told me he’s like. There’s a loophole that we’re able to get through that this is a food product and we’re able to just like label it as a proprietary blend.
Kyle Buller: Um, so I can’t like tell you what’s in it. I can just tell you it’s a proprietary blend, but it’s just like, again, informed consent. It’s [00:37:00] like, you know, you have no idea like what you’re ingesting. And I just think that, you know, it’s harmful. Like what if somebody has like, um, an adverse reaction and needs to go to the hospital and you can’t tell, like, you know, the doctors like what you just ate, you know?
Kyle Buller: Um, it’s like, oh, I ate this chocolate bar, this proprietary blend of mushrooms. Like I have no idea what I, I actually ingested here. Um, so, you know, be careful. There’s a lot of products out there on the market and they are showing up at like gas stations and head shops and stuff like that all throughout.
Kyle Buller: You know, the country. Um, and yeah, it does seem like there’s these like interesting workarounds, um, being food products, um, and you know, who knows what’s actually in it. So, um, you know, maybe try to find somebody that’s a bit trusted than, you know, sketchy, uh, products that head shops and gas stations.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. I think that’s really important for us to notice, like that the market is really doing weird things. Like I [00:38:00] saw all these mito brands recently, marketing product, like I’m all for product being out there and safe product especially, and especially if you’re advertising exactly what it is. Um, but you know, I think there were some brands that claimed years ago, Kyle, I don’t know if you remember this one.
Joe Moore: Um, they were claiming that. They were only selling functional mushroom brands and that, or functional mushrooms. And that some sort of counterfeit operation was actually selling use, leveraging their brand selling illicit product. Oh, wow. For a CO and, and, and OSI and, and things along those lines. And I, I think that was total bullshit.
Joe Moore: I think that was just kinda like what they were saying. Um, so they got in less trouble. But I think there’s, you know, there’s a lot there to how do we actually know what we’re buying is what it is. Um, are, is there accountability in the kind of chain of custody of the products? Generally in a illicit market, there isn’t.
Joe Moore: Um, and, uh, even in decrim, like in Colorado, like how do we know, like I think a lot of Colorado [00:39:00] brands are even doing the same thing. So, um, you know, work hard, work with each other to like, make sure it is what they say it is. Yeah. Test kits, like dance safe and, and whatnot can kind of test for some sy but I don’t know that they’re testing and differentiating with like four A-C-O-T-M-T and other things.
Joe Moore: So I wanna be really careful. That’s why I’m like excited about Reggie’s company, like Labs. Actually, did I tell you that story when someone, someone gave me a bar in San Francisco and I was like, I don’t know, I’m definitely not gonna eat that. And then I like looked at it later and like the lab logo was on it, Haifa Labs, like logo, all their trust.
Joe Moore: I feel more trust there. Yeah. And I was like, oh, actually I will assume this. Oh, fascinating. Um, you know, I obviously there’s room for like counterfeit and like some bullshit there. Yeah, totally. But better than, you know, a sketchy like. Uh, unknown kind of branding package with who knows what in it.
Kyle Buller: [00:40:00] Yeah.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. And I don’t know, like, like you might need to send some of those bars in for like mass spec, because I think picking some of this stuff is like really tough. I, I was on a website, I forget what it was called, like know your drugs.com or something like that. And they did have like, chocolate samples and they said it’s a little bit harder to kind of, uh, pull out, um, active compounds in some of the, um, some of the, like the, the chocolate bars and stuff like that.
Kyle Buller: ’cause there’s just so much stuff in it. But, um, I don’t know. I, I thought that was kind of interesting. Um, they had like little notes that, you know, like all the organic matters showing up and it’s hard to like, really tease apart everything when it comes to like those types of products.
Joe Moore: Right. It’s, I, I think really important to note, um.
Joe Moore: So just be careful out there. Um, what else has been interesting? I think it’s interesting, like, you know, so Santa Fe, we didn’t really get to talk about the Santa Fe conference. Um, there was yet again, a lot of activity from the Texas people in that like [00:41:00] overarching Iboga community. Um, and it was, it was interesting to see that momentum there.
Joe Moore: And then, um, Brian Hubbard getting some great stage time and then getting a lot of interest too. ’cause New Mexico deals with a lot of addiction. Um, it’s kind of clear that IGAs not purely for opioids at this point, which kind of used to be the label, but it seems to be helpful with all sorts of addiction.
Joe Moore: So I think there’s, there’s definitely some interest even in New Mexico around Ibogaine, which they haven’t really kind of gotten loud about yet, but that’s cool. Like Arizona put in money after Texas is 50 million. I heard rumor Mississippi might be Wow. Coming soon. Um. So it’d be really interesting for the US self to be kind of radically influencing, um, psychedelic and, and iboga policy.
Joe Moore: Um, should be fascinating.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Was there any other like big insights away from that conference? It, I’m so bummed I didn’t get to go down there, but it was also a, just a good decision not to go. [00:42:00]
Joe Moore: Sometimes we need to rest, apparently. I, yeah. Um, so, uh, what I learned about Texas and how Texas actually funded that 50 million.
Joe Moore: Texas on occasion will have like a huge, um, surplus in revenue, in tax revenue from like oil. Um, so it was like a crazy amount of money in surplus that Texas had that year in tax revenue. So they were able to actually just grab a slice of that. Um, and I don’t, like in Colorado, sometimes we get refunds from the government, which, uh, was happening with early cannabis, but I think like, um.
Joe Moore: Texas just grabbed a chunk of that money that was surplus because of tax revenues from oil, and then were able to just allocate that. So I thought, um, potentially some of that money came from an opioid abatement fund, but that’s not the case. Um, Brian Hubbard’s still on a war path around like mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Corruption in Kentucky around the opioid abatement fund money. Um, he, he kind of laid that all [00:43:00] out at South by Southwest. I don’t, I’ve not seen him lay it out elsewhere yet in detail, maybe on Rogan a while ago, but yeah. Have you seen him lay that out yet?
Kyle Buller: I don’t think so, no.
Joe Moore: He’s working hard to put people in jail Wow.
Joe Moore: Around federal, like, not federal, but state, state level corruption and like, um, people who are in like the pipeline to be pre and president in the near future and all this kind of fascinating stuff. Yeah. Um. So David’s asking a thing here about the industry needs to mature, but who starts? I feel like nobody’s asking for ingredients, like, you know?
Joe Moore: Yeah. Like, that’s a big deal. I think we need to, like, you’re, you’re probably gonna see that kind of stuff in like, uh, Southern California and San Francisco first. Um, like Venice Beach, I’m sure they’re like, you know, super, um, super expensive ingredients and product, um, and listing it all. And, um, eventually people with like, uh, celiac and, um, other [00:44:00] insensitivities can really, or not insensitivity sensitivities can be a little bit safer when consuming.
Joe Moore: So I think like, it’s coming, it’s coming. Um, you know, things, things that I find interesting are, um, if somebody’s getting injected with a substance, like how are they feeling safe about that? Um, in a ketamine clinic, that kind of makes sense because there’s like that whole clinical supply chain and we kind of trust that as Americans.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Or Westerners. And then, uh, but if you’re in some underground clinic and somebody’s got a needle for you, like that’s a really interesting roll of the dice. Um, and even if it’s a apparently legal clinic, like what is that kind of, what do you want to know about that before they inject you? And I think we don’t even know that, um, as a culture, like as a kind of psychedelic consumers.
Joe Moore: Like I, I’ve been hearing about people injecting five M me o in the underground. I’m just like, how are you sterilizing that? How are, like, what kind of water do you use? Like how are you even measuring [00:45:00] like, you know, 15 milligrams or whatever it is, or eight milligrams for that. So it’s really, really a curious landscape.
Joe Moore: And thankfully a lot of, I’m not hearing a about a lot of injuries from that. Are you? I
Kyle Buller: haven’t, no.
Joe Moore: Um, but you know, there’s always stuff that’s possible. Um,
Kyle Buller: yeah.
Joe Moore: I’m sure there’s a
Kyle Buller: lot of stuff that we just don’t hear about. Right? Like, I’m sure it’s happening, but just not coming on our radar. But, you know, I think Dave, to your question, like who starts?
Kyle Buller: And I think it just starts with you. It starts with all of us, um, to just be better, better educated, more informed. Asking people those questions, you know, like, I was just so damn curious. I walked in that shop and started like, asking questions, you know, it’s like maybe they were a little freaked out.
Kyle Buller: Maybe they thought it was like a narc or something. But, um, you know, and it also happened again, like I was in, I think it was like West Palm Beach, uh, into like another hemp shop. And this guy was trying to convince me that some [00:46:00] of those bars do contain Cy, but it’s completely legal. Um, and I’m like, SI’s not legal.
Kyle Buller: Like, and he was like, no, no, it is. And I’m like, you’re putting people at risk here by like being like that open, selling this stuff in public, especially in Florida, you know, it’s like mm-hmm. But just people aren’t educated about it. And, you know, I think it, it starts with us to try to learn, um, and, and ask, ask those questions when we do come across those products.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I was buying some cannabis edibles in Massachusetts a bunch of years ago, and, um, the person behind the counter was going nuts about how amazing it is that mushrooms are legal in North Carolina. And I was very nervous about that conversation for obvious reasons, like number one, that it’s not.
Joe Moore: And um, you know, I, I even corrected the person when I got up there. I was like, Hey man, that’s like really risky. That’s a really like high risk location for substance. And, [00:47:00] um, I couldn’t convince him and it was fascinating. It’s like they’re selling it so it’s legal. It’s like that A doesn’t even b
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Kyle Buller: Um, like somebody has a very high risk tolerance and is like just Yeah. Skirting the law here and taking risk.
Joe Moore: Right. And I think, you know, there’s, um. There’s a certain level of like, what is the actual risk? Like we feel, right, our outside perspective is that there is like a really high risk, but also like how many shops are getting busted, how many people are going to jail or losing assets for it?
Joe Moore: And like, I think it’s pretty low probably. Yeah, I think like collectively they’re kind of making these judgment calls, like, um, and carrying things like Minocin product. Um, which is really interesting ’cause it’s not. Federally scheduled Minocin. Um, but Federal Analog Act is still there. Yeah. So ostensibly you could get busted federally and you know, apparently I heard, I learned yesterday that [00:48:00] some lawyers are really comfortable with the idea of defending that in court, which I’m like, how, how are you comfortable?
Joe Moore: Like, maybe it doesn’t get prosecuted as much. I don’t know. Right. I think, I think it doesn’t, like it would be, it’s like a really expensive thing to go to federal court to challenge that kind of thing. And I don’t know if you remember, like Sasha Shulgin had a lot of like really great testimony around, um, ’cause the law, the Federal Analog Act is something along the lines of, it needs to be substantially similar.
Joe Moore: And, and Sasha was just on stage saying that doesn’t mean anything. And from a legal perspective you have no ground. Mm-hmm. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that, um, things won’t progress in a difficult direction for you. Yeah. Yeah. So here’s, here’s a piece of news, um, founded on filter. I think I saw it a marijuana moment yesterday.
Joe Moore: But, um, the Alaska campaign to legalize psychedelics is gathering signatures finally. Amazing. So they kind of took [00:49:00] the next step, um, and they need to collect 35,000 signatures. So there’s a, a lot of activities required, I think after the conference that they had. Um, what was that called? Uh, maybe Northern Lights or something.
Joe Moore: Arctic Lights or something there. Arctic Lights. Yeah. Yeah. Like after that I think they got a lot of really good momentum. I, I really thought about going, but I just couldn’t like in good conscience go before Burning Man. That seemed like absurd. Um, but it sounded amazing. Everybody had a really great time, um, and, you know, got to educate Alaska in some really important ways.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah. And do you know much about what they’re doing there?
Kyle Buller: Just a little bit like when we saw them present down in Denver, um, and hearing about like the campaign and they were feeling really confident, um, about like getting those signatures and like their initial kind of like polling seemed, um, yeah, pretty positive that they would be able to, [00:50:00] to pass this.
Kyle Buller: So, um, fingers crossed, that’d be really amazing. Um, if they’re able to get all those signatures right. And it’s a, it’s a, it’s kind of like a legalization initiative,
Joe Moore: right? Right. Somewhat. Similar to Colorado and Oregon, um, but also like a little different, just kind of popping it up on screen here. I like this here.
Joe Moore: Traditional healers would also be protected for spiritual, or sorry, ceremonial spiritual or cultural use of plant medicines through legal exemptions to state laws. So I think that would be really, really excellent. Um, that’d be awesome. I think, uh, they’re lowering kind of the civil fine for public consumption to a hundred dollars to kind of make sense, I guess.
Joe Moore: Um, especially if you want to keep people safe. Uh, and they’re, um, yeah, so it says right here, yeah, they’re building off Colorado, which is great. Um, so I, I’m excited. I would really be excited to see how they’re gonna do it, [00:51:00] um, and, and roll it out and, um, see how they’re tracking to collecting those 35,000 signatures.
Joe Moore: Um, it’s a big job, but it’s important.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. What’s the total population in Alaska? Do you know?
Joe Moore: No.
Kyle Buller: I’m like, I wonder how much, like you said, 35,000. Yeah. I wonder how like that is compared to like the just main population. Yeah. Three
Joe Moore: quarters of a million. Hmm. So it’s a big proportion still. Yeah. You know, but you know, thankfully there’s only a handful of big cities that they could work on and bring it through.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think it’s, um, it’s fascinating to see how this might shake out. Um, I’m excited. Um, so yeah, I, I heard, uh, from some other people in, um, New Mexico that there’s interest in other things beyond mushrooms too. Hmm. So, you know, feeling really [00:52:00] amazing about getting mushrooms through, like through the state process, the legislative process as opposed to like a voter ballot initiative.
Joe Moore: But then they’re like, oh. There’s all these other really amazing things that we could contribute too, and like how should we think about that? Like what do you think about that? Like it’s amazing that it’s happening in my book, but it’s also like, it’s complicated ’cause it feels
Kyle Buller: they’re doing it more kind of like in a behavioral health model, right?
Joe Moore: Um,
Joe Moore: like they’re not doing as robust decrim, if that’s what you mean. Is that what you meant? Meant there?
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Or like needing a, a diagnosis because they’re really trying to treat like mental health with, with their bill. Like I haven’t, but they can
Joe Moore: expand. They New Mexico can really expand the scope of it through adding conditions.
Joe Moore: Gotcha. So, you know, I was able to talk a bunch about chronic pain conditions and they were really excited about that. And, um, they’re actually, um, doing some [00:53:00] trials, I think in the near term with ketamine in group to help validate. Psilocybin ingroup for their stake care. Oh, sweet. Which would radically drop their clinical care costs.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Which would be huge. Um, and when does like all this go online? Did they talk about like a rollout of like when they’ve got a date?
Joe Moore: It’s about two years from now. Okay. I think, think they said like December 27 or something like that. 2027. I could be wrong on that, but about two years. So similar to all the other project.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Everybody else’s rollout dates. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I think, oh, here’s another good one. Um, it looks like, um, other universities are picking up this, uh, traumatic brain injury conversation, which I think is, you know, long past due. Um, share my screen again here. If you’re watching, you can see it.
Joe Moore: Um. Uh, yeah, this tool is [00:54:00] interesting. Sometimes, sometimes it works amazing. Sometimes it does not. That’s not the right one. Come on. Um, but it looks like, uh, in British Columbia, they’re gonna start actually looking at Oh, amazing. Um, right. It’d be really cool. Um, and I think, uh, we’re gonna see all sorts of interesting stuff come from that.
Joe Moore: So I, you remember the Nolan Williams Ibogaine study that we’ve chatted about a bunch, right? Yeah. Where, yeah. Um, where I think a number of vets kind of took the, I think it was IBOGAINE and five M-E-O-D-M-T protocol, either at, uh, I think it was all at Beyond. No, that’s not right. Amio. Amio. And, um, I think it’s interesting they’re including five at this point, but the people just.
Joe Moore: Their brain imaging looked so much better at the end of the protocol, and this was done with Stanford, um, published highly. Dr. Nolan, Nolan Williams is like hyping it like crazy, but um, but yeah, now it [00:55:00] looks like there’s more interest in, um. Treating concussions and I had that big concussion a few years ago.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So I’m really, really excited about this. Um, yeah. Impaired neuroplasticity, so we know psychedelics can kind of help with that. Um, yeah. Reducing inflammation with classical psychedelics. Um, Chuck Nichols, Dave Nichols kid who’s like kind of an amazing researcher in his own right and is like wildly intelligent.
Joe Moore: Um, he’s kind of like the world leader on, uh, inflammation with psychedelics and he says psilocybin is a really good anti-inflammatory. LSD is a really crappy anti. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So like with the microdosing topic, it makes sense why some people have such a strong, well, from that perspective alone have such a strong response.
Joe Moore: And it could just be that it’s an anti-inflammatory thing.
Kyle Buller: That’s interesting. I wonder how much of an anti-inflammatory iboga is, or ibogaine, um.
Joe Moore: Right. Um, that would be a really interesting thing to know. [00:56:00] Yeah. Um, and I, one. Biggest things that ties into this is the, um, what are the molecules that are getting banned right now?
Joe Moore: God, um, uh, the DEA is working on these two really obscure molecules, um, Hamilton Morris and SSDP oh groups. Is it like
Kyle Buller: DOC or D-O-I-D-O-I-D-O-I
Joe Moore: and DOC. Thank you. Um, yeah. And these molecules, I think DOI in particular is showing like exponentially more anti-inflammatory response in people at a sub psychedelic dose than corticosteroids.
Joe Moore: So like a crazy high response rate. So if the DEA makes that illegal, um, or higher up the schedule chain, it makes it more expensive to research that stuff and, and not awesome. Um, but you know, imagine just people having to take less steroids. I think that would be just an overall good thing, right? Yeah, yeah.
Joe Moore: Totally.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. I’m excited for more of this like concussion [00:57:00] research to come out too. ’cause it’s like, yeah, you had your big experience a few years ago. Like I just had some minor, uh, head injuries over the summer. Um, and I was started to look up, um, some of this research and it didn’t seem like there was really great protocols.
Kyle Buller: Like some subjective reports came from people dosing. Like weeks after the concussion. And then, you know, I think there’s that question. It’s like, when do you start dosing? Do you start dosing as soon as possible? Do you, do you wait a little bit for the brain to kind of like, settle back down, um, and then, and then start dosing?
Kyle Buller: And so yeah, I was trying to do some research on it and it didn’t seem like there were very specific protocols around that. So I’m excited to, you know, uh, see more of that stuff. I mean, obviously being into some of these sports with, uh, high ri, high injury risk, you’re like, hmm. You know, like having concussions are not fun.
Kyle Buller: You know,
Joe Moore: I considered going into the thunderdome at Burning Man this year, and I think my [00:58:00] final conclusion was I don’t know that I can afford more brain injuries right now. Um, you know, I, so here’s, here’s a fun one. Um, and I’m gonna throw up and we can kind of like work towards closing two more. Um, where is it?
Joe Moore: Yeah, our friends, like we included these guys in our, um, TV show a while back. Yeah. Um, yeah, like, I don’t know that this is necessarily news, but they, they kind of showed up on our radar yesterday. Um, and they do this drug MEAI, um, and they’re bringing that through and that’s when it hits like a satiation trigger.
Joe Moore: And, um, I, it sounded like it had a really amazing, safe profile. It felt pleasant to use and it helped people stop drinking. And I think the article I saw the other day was around, um, overeating. And so if you hit, if you can eat this pill, um, it might help you just not overeat and, um, [00:59:00] similar to not over drink, you know?
Joe Moore: So I think that’s like a really cool idea and I’m excited to see what happens there. Um. Why is this psychedelic news? Um, what was the guy’s name? Mark Hayden, former Maps Canada lead was part of their team and I think he, he had some really interesting things to say about it. And it, I think the experience is something along the lines of, um, uh, how to put it,
Kyle Buller: I think they said low dose MDMA, like they said something like
Joe Moore: that.
Kyle Buller: Like when you’re using MEI for drinking, it was like you would feel satiated after like a drink or two. And then like, but if you took it alone and didn’t use it in combination, um, with drinking, they kind of described it as like a low dose of like MDMA.
Joe Moore: Mm. Yeah.
Kyle Buller: I think that’s fascinating. So, because I remember after all those interviews, I’m like, I kinda wanna try this stuff Sounds really fascinating.
Kyle Buller: Just for like, not for the drinking piece, but just for like the low dose of [01:00:00] MDMA.
Joe Moore: So Lindy is asking for us to link to a study. I don’t know. Um, which one, if you wanna look up Stanford Ibogaine brain injury. You’re gonna find that one if that’s the one we were talking about. Um, so this is like kinda the final bit of news we can leave folks with, but the Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommends iboga for therapeutic use.
Joe Moore: So it seems like the advisory board, um, that’s kind of contributing towards the government making its rules is saying Yes. IGAs. Next. I heard some inside stuff that it’s looking positive. I don’t want to give any details. Um, so I promised a little bit of an nomin and then, and then Jesus anonymity. Um, and check this out, it looks like, um, they’re really recommending compliance with the Nagoya protocol, which would be really novel and really good.
Joe Moore: Nagoya protocol is an international agreement, I think. Almost every country signed it except for the United States. So it’s like legally [01:01:00] required in other, in many other countries. Um, and, uh, as of right now, I think the only only known company that has Nagoya compliant IGA is, uh, AMBIO. They claim that pretty loudly and proudly, uh, um, but it, it could imp improve, increase the pressure on the markets to become more Nagoya compliant.
Joe Moore: So it’s kind of like built in reciprocity to genetic heritage. So like, do you have an agreement with the country and the, and the people from where this is from to say, yeah, like, you’re gonna give us a certain amount of your revenues? That feels fair. And you have it in writing and there’s, I looked it up on um, GPT the other day.
Joe Moore: There was a few other kind of like hit points for like, what is a Nagoya compliant agreement, but there’s no international authority that certifies it. There’s nobody that just like rubber stamps it, but there are like third party companies that kind of validate it. Yeah. Um, [01:02:00] so it’s an interesting thing to live with, uh, and live through, but I don’t know.
Joe Moore: Any thoughts on this one?
Kyle Buller: I was actually gonna ask you if you heard any updates on this. ’cause I did think, I just saw some posts about this and I didn’t really get to read into it ’cause I was, uh, teaching today. But, um, yeah, I mean it’s exciting. Uh, and it’s always like, I always find it like really interesting, like how IGA is getting like the spotlight right now.
Kyle Buller: ’cause you know, it is like one of the more on the riskier side, right? Of like cardiac issues. Um, so it’s fascinating like how much coverage and attention Iboga is getting and Iboga is getting. Um, but also really exciting ’cause it seems like the potential is huge. Um, here. So
Joe Moore: I like this quote from our friend Josh Cappel, uh, founding partner in Vicente.
Joe Moore: He says, unfortunately the program is not legal under federal law. Um, this is the Natural Medicine Health Act thing, like the psilocybin program and whatnot. Um, so it’s not legal under federal law, but there’s more than a zero chance that we can import iboga from [01:03:00] Gabon. Uh, Colorado would. The federal government to step in on this very nuanced, um, topic and authorize that, which is, you know, quite an interesting conversation to be having now.
Joe Moore: So, um, yeah. Yeah. Um,
Kyle Buller: yeah. And is it appropriate to like, grow Iboga here? Probably not. Or the climate’s probably
Joe Moore: not even great for it, but, right. ’cause it’s a rainforest that it grows in realistically. Are there other ways of doing it? That’s an interesting question. Like how can we do an end around on the federal law thing?
Joe Moore: That’s an interesting question. So there’s, um, yeah, there’s a lot, especially like if, if the primary objective is import is what’s illegal, bringing it from outside the country into Colorado is the illegal act. Um. Like possessing it still in Colorado is illegal under federal law, but you have state law protecting you, which is interesting.
Joe Moore: Right, right. Um, yeah, so it’s a whole fascinating legal situation that we’re dealing [01:04:00] with. And, um, there’s plenty of other fun, exciting, legal situations We’re also dealing with the same time, so who knows? Um, yeah. Yeah. Like all of a sudden IGA could be legal federally in two weeks who like, because it, you know, the,
Joe Moore: I don’t want to make too many dark comments, but Yeah. Like the science is there for all sorts of other things, and why isn’t it? Why isn’t it here for this? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Anyway, uh, Lindy’s asking about the anti-inflammatory stuff. I don’t have the paper. Chuck Nichols, Charles Nichols, university of Louisiana is the researcher.
Joe Moore: Check out his papers. Um, he’s got a number of papers on anti-inflammatory effects of psychedelics. So a lot of good stuff there. And those drugs, um, D-O-I-D-O-C, they last too long. That’s why we don’t use them. Like, you know, if you wanna be like 24
Kyle Buller: hours or something like that, like the halflife is pretty ridiculous on it.
Joe Moore: Super high. Yeah. And if you wanna be high that long, just like, it’s probably more, far more [01:05:00] pleasant to just use acid for a couple times. Like, and you could turn it off like D-O-I-D-O-C, like good god. Like we just don’t use that stuff. But I’m excited to see what medicine can be made of that to help people who are in chronic pain and like, let’s see what, not only that kind of level of anti-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory stuff, um, happening, but pair that with neuroplasticity and what kind of change can we have.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Maybe that’s what’s happening with high-dose mushrooms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well thanks for staying over with me and, um, yeah.
Kyle Buller: Thanks everybody for tuning in and doing this and yeah, it’s been quite a while since we’ve kind of, uh, riffed together, so it’s fun and hopefully we have, uh, more time to be doing this.
Kyle Buller: So
Joe Moore: yeah, let’s bring guests in to be like guest commentators too. Yeah, and again, please support us over@navigatorspsychedelicstoday.com slash navigators. We would love for you to be part of our community and support us and we can give you exclusive content and much more access to the, [01:06:00] um, you know, in-person events.
Joe Moore: We’ll be running and book club, film club and more so expect news. We’re gonna roll it out in phases. Um, but you can sign up now at our base membership level and we would love to see you in there. And, um, thank you Kyle.
Kyle Buller: Yeah, thank you Joe. And thank you everybody. Till next time.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah.
In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Cat Meyer, licensed psychotherapist, sex therapist, and host of Sex, Love, Psychedelics. Together, they explore the deep intersections of sexuality, trauma healing, psychedelics, and the role of play in human connection.
Dr. Meyer shares her journey from growing up in rural Missouri and navigating early trauma to becoming a leading voice in sex therapy and psychedelic integration. She opens up about her personal healing path, her work with ketamine-assisted therapy, and how tantra, BDSM, and art have shaped her approach to erotic wellness.
This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Here we are. Perfect. Hi everybody. Joe Moore here. Hope you’re all doing great. Psychedelics today we’re joined by Dr. Kat. How are you?
Dr Cat Meyer: I’m so good this morning.
Joe Moore: Yeah, this is gonna be fun. I, I warmed you up with some weird stories and, uh, you had some great suggestions for me.
Dr Cat Meyer: I think that was a, a mutual warming up my friend.
Dr Cat Meyer: I love some in there too.
Joe Moore: So you were a sex therapist out of Los Angeles. You’ve, um, been doing some cap work with clients. Um. Let’s kind of, uh, give people an understanding of what you do right now, and then we’re gonna rewind the tape to kind of like, give people, uh, an idea of how you got here.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Okay.
Dr Cat Meyer: So, um, I would say I’m a, I’m a professional shapeshifter, you do all kinds of things and shift into so many aspects of healing. Um, so I’m a, I’m a licensed psychotherapist [00:01:00] and I work with, uh, sex therapy. I’ve been doing that for about 15 years. Um, specializing in, uh, sexuality, trauma, um, uh, relationships, alternative styles of relationships.
Dr Cat Meyer: I teach a combination of BDSM and tan, so I do workshops, retreats around that. Um, I do ketamine assisted therapy retreats for women around sensuality. So we are doing, uh, cap. Ceremonies, two of them. And then the whole rest of the retreat is based around the integration coming into the body, coming into right relationship with pleasure and the body.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then I, I have a podcast Sex of Psychedelics where I interview experts all on psychedelics, sexuality, um, relationships. And, and I, uh, right now we’re delving into, uh, art as an expression to teach people. ’cause especially right now, what I’ve been running [00:02:00] up against is censorship. Um, watching how words are not fully communicating or landing or being received.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, and I’m noticing how art can, so there’s a way that art and the way that play can reach people and teach people in a way that you don’t have to have these words that seem to be triggering or causing a block. So, um, I’ve been an artist since I was. A baby, like a painting since I was eight. And, um, uh, now getting into more music and, and doing that as a way to get people to feel the erotic nature activate, um, you know, uh, develop that relationship with our bodies and heal.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah.
Joe Moore: So we were just chatting about our mutual friend, um, Didi Gold ppa. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they were on last week and we chatted about, um, all sorts of things in the book, but I had [00:03:00] Didi define erotic. Yeah. And you just brought the word up. Could you, like what, what’s a kind of functional definition that you like when you’re working with people in this, um, topic?
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah, so what I say with erotic is that it is the connection to vibrancy. It’s the connection to life. Um, it is the. Relationship that we have with the world and, um, the experience of the world through our senses, and particularly as it relates to pleasure. So we experience the world through these data points, the senses, right?
Dr Cat Meyer: Sensuality is taking those senses in, uh, but through the sense of pleasure, the enjoyment. And, uh, so when we’re looking at, uh, you might also hear the word aeros and aeros is often used in union psychology as a symbol for, um, aliveness. And [00:04:00] so we’re looking for things that bring us liveliness, vibrancy, um, life force energy.
Dr Cat Meyer: Some people might hear it used in those terms.
Joe Moore: Yeah, I appreciate that. And I, I’ve been hearing, um, people in kind of, uh, mystical spaces mm-hmm. Using the term, but clearly not in like an explicit kind. Human sex framework, they’re kind of talking about it in, in that kind of like, broader context. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. And I think that’s really important because we’ve, we’ve attached such a narrow definition of sex as this act that we do. You know, we bring bodies together and in, or even our own body and, uh, we connect to it through friction and, and positions. And that really limits the expansive experience of what this does as creation or life or, um, uh, again, I’m gonna use the word [00:05:00] vibrancy.
Dr Cat Meyer: A wakefulness, right? And we are all sexual beings. You can’t really segment that as much as we try to in culture, we say this is, uh. Not sexual or you’re don’t be a sexual person or don’t be a sexually expressed. And yet we are sexual beings that walk this earth. It’s how do we interact with everything around us that is erotic or can be erotic because we can engage with things around us, and it can also be very dead.
Dr Cat Meyer: It can be very, very numb. We can be very disconnected from it or it can bring us down. And so that’s not eroticism, that’s like the opposite of it.
Joe Moore: Mm,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The repression is so interesting. We kind of chatted about historical origins of the repression, but let’s maybe put a pin in it for Okay.
Joe Moore: And then, and then talk about how did you get here? Like, um, [00:06:00] so I, I assume you’re an American. And, uh, you know, the American experience is quite interesting and unique. Um, and yeah, it just, how do you like to tell your story?
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah, yeah. So I, um, I’m from Missouri, so I’m from rural town, Missouri. Um, grew up as a, a traditional Catholic family, and I had some childhood trauma from when I was younger.
Dr Cat Meyer: Sexual trauma when I was younger and leading into a lot of, uh, anxiety, depression, uh, dissociation, panic attacks, um, eating disorders for about 11 years. And, but all of that was done in secret. So all of that was done within my own self and isolated from, from everyone else. So even though I was out in the world, nobody knew that I was doing these things or that these experiences were happening.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then. Um, I really struggled with relationships. Uh, they would last about two weeks and then I would have full panic attack in them. Or as things [00:07:00] started to move towards sex, I would just shut it down and completely deadpan in a relationship. So there was a fascination while there was a fear at the same exact time, and it wasn’t until I was 21 and I was reading a Red Book magazine and they were quoting a sex therapist, and I was like, oh, that’s a job you can have, like, you can actually do that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And mind you, I hadn’t had any sex. Like the most I had done is like make out with everybody in the fraternity, but I was not, not moving beyond that because of the, the deep fear in my body. Uh, I went to California and uh, got my doctorate in marriage and family therapy and immediately dove into. Learning sex therapy.
Joe Moore: And where did you study,
Dr Cat Meyer: uh, Alliant University? Here in Irvine or in Great In Irvine. Yeah. And I, um, going into that, I dove into Tantra first. So studying sacred sexuality [00:08:00] through more of the tantric lineage, um, and then studying more of the, the, uh, philosophical and the um, uh, spiritual aspect of, of tantra, um, through yogic.
Dr Cat Meyer: Traditions. And then that was some of my first indications of how you could feel differently in your body. Um, I was teaching yoga by the age of 1920 and I was like, oh, you can feel differently. That’s interesting. There’s a state change here. And so diving into that work and then, um, alongside, uh, you know, this more sexual erotic side and then the psychology side.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then I got into BDSM when I was 24 and realizing, well, having like a full transcendent experience that was similar to what I was trying to reach in, in the tan world. Like deep states of surrender, altered states of consciousness, like activating different parts of myself, um, different characters in myself, different skills in [00:09:00] myself.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then it just kind of progressed from there. Uh, I met a teacher who taught, uh, Reiki energy and introduced me to metaphysics. And then I got into, you know, this whole different world of healing that was beyond just my traditional sense of, uh, in psychology school. And then I got into plant medicine and it was just, just one thing after another.
Dr Cat Meyer: It’s kind of like when the student’s ready, the teacher comes and it’s here, here’s a new piece, here’s a new piece. I have no idea where I’m going with all of this. I’m just, I’m interested. This looks really cool. Let’s do this. And then in retrospect, seeing how all of these things interrelate with one another.
Dr Cat Meyer: And now I’m gonna place where I can see, so the interweavings of so many different disciplines. And see why some work, why don’t, and then even the expanded definitions of things you see regurgitated in the spiritual community. Things like pleasure, things like eroticism, things like [00:10:00] surrender, like those are actually very complex concepts that we hear on social media or we see, um, spoken on stage and we’re like, we nod our heads.
Dr Cat Meyer: We’re like, yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. ’cause I’ve heard that before, but people don’t actually understand what they’re talking about with that. So is it actually deeply ingrained? So I’ve, I’ve been able to see across these, these disciplines, um, what it actually means.
Joe Moore: When did things like, um, ketamine assisted psychotherapy or maps come on your radar as something you were curious about?
Dr Cat Meyer: I was, I think I was 26. I, um. Had met somebody in the maps world who had introduced to me about things like, uh, MDMA therapy and, um, uh, telling me about the benefits of using that for sexual trauma. And I was like, oh, I’m really [00:11:00] intrigued, you know, being a therapist and, um, having sexual trauma myself. And, and I had worked with somebody and did, um, MDMA, um, therapy, not, not through maps, but this is, you know, a separate and, um, it was really profound.
Dr Cat Meyer: The things that came out of my mouth were things I had literally not told anybody, so I was so fascinated with how easily the words streamed out of my mouth. And then after that and the way the tears streamed down my face so easily, there was like no more filter there. And at the end of that session, I just softly fell asleep.
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, it was like this, this, uh, purge but not an intense hard breakthrough, the protector parts. It was soft and gentle and, and it was out. And that was a really important [00:12:00] phase at that part of my life to even just let it be heard by myself, let it be witnessed by myself being witnessed by another person, which I think is one of the stages that, of healing.
Dr Cat Meyer: That’s really important.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I love that, and thanks for sharing that story. It’s, um, we get these stories from people here and there that are just extraordinary, like unfolding through. Mm-hmm. You know, one or two encounters. Then we have the inverse, right? Where it’s like, oh, you’ve had 30 encounters and you haven’t had that thing you’re looking for yet.
Joe Moore: Um, you know, we, we used to see it in Hochberg breath work. People were like, I just want that rebirth experience. I wanna re-experience my birth. I’m like, why?
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um,
Dr Cat Meyer: I, I think ’cause there’s this hierarchy of spiritual spirituality and power, like we all have this real fascination with power and we think, well, if I have that experience, then, [00:13:00] then I have access to a power that other people don’t have. Or it puts me in a category separate than the rest of the world.
Dr Cat Meyer: And, and what do we think that that’s gonna bring us, is gonna bring us safety? Is it gonna bring us, um, you know. Divine knowledge. Is it like, what is that? What is that that we’re wanting from that?
Joe Moore: Yeah, exactly. That makes sense. Um, yeah, reflecting on my own kind of, um, uh, juvenile periods where I’m kind of seeking really hard and like that was part of it.
Joe Moore: It’s like, this isn’t a game I want, and it was kind of like a spiritual bypass and a few other kind of ways of framing it, I’m sure. But, um, yeah, like this is common. Mm-hmm. It’s not, yeah. Don’t judge yourself folks if you have that. Um, just No, I think a part
Dr Cat Meyer: of, yeah. Yeah. I think there, you know, there is a curiosity in us to, I think, you know, Maslow expanded his, his, um, uh, [00:14:00] you know, hierarchy of needs to even include self-transcendence.
Dr Cat Meyer: And even in that, there’s so many, there’s multiple layers in that too. Like, what are we, what are we seeking with that. So there, there may be this intrinsic desire to seek for more, and I think that’s beautiful. It just is. Then can we create a relationship with that seeking and see what is it actually wanting?
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, you know, with people who they wanna have better sex, one of the questions that I ask them is, what about what, what is it that you’re seeking in that better sex? What do you think you’re gonna get with that? And is it, and, and what do you mean by better sex too? A lot of times people are like, they just want more sex, but do they actually like the sex that they’re having?
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, or for me, in the search of better sex, it was, uh, peace. It was more of a, a fluidity and expression. Um, it was like I [00:15:00] didn’t wanna be clenching anymore. I was clenching a lot in my body. And, and it was also. I power, certainly power, you know, self power in myself. And probably at some points even using that, not even probably, I know in some points feeling like if I had a, a sexual power, then I could use that in space.
Dr Cat Meyer: That was valuable too. And so getting in relationship with that of like, oh, am I using this ability to be courageous in my body and in my expression, is that being used as a tool to seduce or to get something as well? And that’s just as powerful or important for us. What is sex, the function of, like, what are we using it for?
Dr Cat Meyer: Is it to create safety? Is it to get resources? Is it to get, um, connection, uh, comfort, um, to feel [00:16:00] something, to prove something? It oftentimes isn’t even just a. Experience of pleasure and enjoyment, but if we don’t get into the question of like, why am I using this? Or what is it? What’s that relationship or function with it?
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, we’re, we’re not actually in power of it ourselves.
Joe Moore: Um, all right, so you’re at the intersection of two really powerful topics. Um, and a lot of people are like, oh, psychedelics can save the world. A lot of people are like, oh, good sex can save the world. And like there’s this kind of, um, interesting intersection. I’m, I’m sure you see lots of assumptions that people have coming in that are.
Joe Moore: Super half-baked maybe, is the kind way to put it. And then there’s, you know, what, what are, what are kind of like some really [00:17:00] half-baked ideas that you see coming forward at the intersection of sex and psychedelics and what, what kind of things do you actually see as like, um, you know, powerful, powerful things often the horizon or that are here now?
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Um,
Dr Cat Meyer: like I said, many of us have this relationship with power, you know, and in power there’s also the desire to wanna be saved. So I see many of us looking to experts, authorities, doctors, not knowing that they have a part inside of them that really wants to be saved. Give me the answer. Take me out of this suffering.
Dr Cat Meyer: Get me out of this place that’s really painful or dangerous for me. And when we say this is the answer, psychedelics or sex, it, it, um, the conviction of that can feel very [00:18:00] enticing to want to give up our, our power, our internal power for that person, um, to do that for us. And that’s very dangerous on many levels because the answer is never black and white and certain.
Dr Cat Meyer: And com you know, we can’t have conviction like that, um, as much as we want that because it’s so complex and the answer is really nuanced and people have a hard time with nuance because it’s, there’s, it changes, it’s dynamic. And the very nature of being human is dynamic. We change from morning to evening.
Dr Cat Meyer: We change from month to month, from year to year, um, through different phases of our life. And we get, we can feel terrified when we’re in, say, the ebb of something. You know, say our libido disappears and we’re like, oh my God, I’m broken. There’s something wrong with me. Or my, [00:19:00] my, my dick isn’t staying up.
Dr Cat Meyer: What’s, what’s wrong with me? Right. I’m not orgasming. And that also is not honoring that the body is in its own dynamic nature, speaking to us, communicating to us. This is a form of communication. It’s a symptom. Um, the nuance is, you know, it really holds that it holds space for us to both be valid in our experience and, um, that the answer can be completely varied and complex.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um. I do believe that both of these things can be highly supportive for us in sex. I’ll start with sex. The importance of sex. Um, and when it comes to healing or when it comes to, um, you know, power in ourselves is that [00:20:00] there’s so much cultural conditioning out there that tells us, this is wrong. This is shameful.
Dr Cat Meyer: You shouldn’t express this way. This is, um, this is dangerous. Um, there’s messages even from the ancient times of, um, making women’s bodies and their erotic expression both as a ritual source and as, um, you know, more of a profane source wrong. That it’s sinful, it’s dirty, it’s, it’s, um, uh, less than. And yet what we know is that when an individual, I’m gonna use, uh, a woman in this case, ’cause I just referred to that.
Dr Cat Meyer: When she’s in her body and she’s in her feeling and she’s in her, uh, expression, that is such an incredibly powerful human being to behold, because when you can feel, you can discern, and a [00:21:00] discerning human is a very powerful human. So think about all the things that turn down our feeling, and that’s a great way to both influence control, um, to reduce somebody.
Dr Cat Meyer: So the same with psychedelics. What I love about psychedelics is that it can also connect us to that feeling. So for many of my clients who’ve had difficult time with, um, you know, they’ve had trauma or they just have the, the impact of the cultural narrative on them, um, that feeling, the relationship with feeling can be very confusing.
Dr Cat Meyer: When they start to feel, whether it’s an emotion or a sensation, they might go into the fear of feeling too much overwhelm or feeling too little, numbness or nothing at all, or feeling mm-hmm. Incorrectly. And so psychedelics can help us to tap back into that feeling. What is it like when your body feels alive?
Dr Cat Meyer: What is it like when you feel energy? What is [00:22:00] it like when you feel sensation and pleasure? MDMA is great for that. It’s, it’s beautiful in that it can, um, I’ve had so many people report to me the, that they could feel emotion again. Um, where they couldn’t before they were really numb to it. Or, um, uh, my clients who’ve had vaginismus or dys hernia, those are painful sex.
Dr Cat Meyer: Uh, they used, uh, they told me they used microdosing of psilocybin and it helped to relax their body helped to relax their, their um, uh, vulva. In a way that they could feel again and feel pleasure or enjoy just being in their body. Um, ketamine is another one, like, in my practice, like, uh, and, and in my retreats, like the women, I teach them how to move their body, you know how to get outta the head and into the body with that medicine, and I’ll see them just like caressing themselves, like they’re just touching their skin here, or they’re, they’re moving their body and it’s, and, and I can tell that they’re [00:23:00] in the enjoyment of their body again, in a way that doesn’t overwhelm them and also doesn’t, you know, numb them out.
Dr Cat Meyer: Now the, the challenge with that is that. Uh, psychedelics can also overwhelm you. They can also barge through the very important protector parts in our body that are designed to protect us, um, or to, you know, to prevent that overwhelm, um, or us accessing something that we’re not ready for. And so how the protocols that we’re putting around that safety we’re putting around that the, the preparation that we’re putting around that is also incredibly important.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, there’s even energetic practices that I’m seeing people teach nowadays where I disagree with some of the protocols that they’re using because they’re forcing too much energy through the body that the body’s not prepared for. So that’s where that can be dangerous and. [00:24:00] Um, I’ve, I’ve worked with a number of individuals who came into my practice.
Joe Moore: Can you name, can you name something that looks like that real quick? The energetic
Dr Cat Meyer: I can. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Um, let’s see. Gosh, I don’t know the name of this other one, but I’ll, I’ll speak to this one. So this one’s, um, kli Kundalini activation process Cap. Um, not to be confused with Ketamine assisted therapy, um, but that one’s one where I’ve received individuals after doing a class where there’s several people and there’s a facilitator, and their bodies weren’t ready for that opening of their, the energetic, uh, flow of their body.
Dr Cat Meyer: And they ended up in a lot of pain, overwhelm, um, confusion, uh, crying, and they could not, they couldn’t calm their body down and. So we would do a, a session and, and I can speak to this ’cause this has happened several times, and so it’s a very general experience that I’ve [00:25:00] seen. Um, and having to work with them and bringing the energy down and bringing more of a self containment again where their teachers weren’t available to talk or they receive the messages of, um, you should just ground or, um, they gave them a list of things to do, but those actions weren’t working because it’s, it, there’s no preparation.
Dr Cat Meyer: For a client or even having a conversation with a client ahead of time, or a student who’s coming to your class ahead of time to see where they’re at with their nervous system health, with, with, um, their hi trauma history, um, with what may be happening in their field to know whether they’re prepared for that or not.
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, psychedelics do this too. It’s, it’s like, like a psychedelic, um, stimulates your nervous system, relaxes the fascia, which is the connective tissue on the body, [00:26:00] so that the energy can flow so much easier. It’s beautiful, and if it’s not held correctly, it can be very, uh, disorienting, disrupting, um, activate psychotic breaks.
Dr Cat Meyer: And I just, you know, I, I fear that there’s not enough infrastructure there to support people or give the resource to know who to go to, what to do.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then, you know, I’ll even speak back to the sex with all of that too. Um, the dangerous side of all of that is also power, you know, comes back to power. Like who are we working with? Um, uh, are there, is there, there’s an, an inherent power dynamic or, uh, in with anybody that we’re seeking help from. And many facilitators don’t realize that, or it’s very seductive to be in a role of power and to be the one that’s [00:27:00] facilitating and offering this healing for somebody.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, and sometimes they don’t even know what’s what stuff of theirs is becoming transferred onto a client or onto, I know somebody that they’re working on. And so their stuff can end up in the space and. They can project their needs onto another client. Therapists do that too. Um, I’m not just saying it’s psychedelic facilitators, but coaches do it too.
Dr Cat Meyer: I just think it’s really, um, hygienic practice, good hygienic practice for us to be doing that work to see what we’re bringing into the space as well.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. I was just chatting with a Norwegian psychotherapist researcher who’s talking more and more about, um, doing the research required such that therapists can actually have their own processes legally with MDMA and other substances such that they have more awareness, um, and more skill in session.
Joe Moore: Right. And
Joe Moore: yeah,
Joe Moore: [00:28:00] that’s it. It’s a, you know, hard thing to sell sometimes, but therapy as a field kind of understands that there are limitations. Um, and there are things that we gotta catch,
Dr Cat Meyer: we do. And there is even talk about, you know, I’ll tie it back to sex, um, erotic, uh, transference and counter transference, which means that what we project onto our clients or our clients project onto us in a neurotic sense, um, uh, can be both used as a tool and used as harm if it’s not, if it’s, you know, moving unconsciously through it.
Dr Cat Meyer: So one of the things that I suggest people and that I do personally is working in, um, cohorts, working in cohorts or working with your own therapists, working, um, you know, I have clients who are therapists and we do their work that shows up in their client sessions because that’s, that’s really important, um, to have a place where you, you know, your stuff is in there.[00:29:00]
Dr Cat Meyer: We can’t pretend like it’s not, but how do we, you know, how do we do that hygiene practice to make sure that we’re consciously aware of it and we, we have a relationship with it. So it’s not unconsciously ruin ruling what’s happening in our sessions with our clients.
Joe Moore: I am muted. Sorry. Everything, you know, what
Dr Cat Meyer: much of the country is in, in the world is muted. So,
Joe Moore: um, I’ll give you a little bit of personal trivia, Kat. Mm-hmm. I, um, I have a kind of thing where I actually show up as a mime, but it’s actually the world’s worst mime, um, who’s actually a clown. So there’s like a, you know, there’s a whole lot of stuff there.
Joe Moore: We’ll get into that later, but commuting is part of it. Mm-hmm. I’ve not been punched yet, but you know, oh, thank God. It’s not always, it’s not always [00:30:00] the, the most, um, well looked upon thing. Um, yeah. So, um, the world being muted. Yeah. So this like, hygiene thing is really important. This, like, self-awareness of power dynamics is super important.
Joe Moore: I don’t know that we’re ever gonna kind of solve it. I just think it’s an active part of humanity and how we’re always gonna kind of interact with each other.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um,
Joe Moore: but we’ve gotta, you know, watch it become more self-aware, can help us in kind of like, um, hopefully seeing the dynamics that could suck us into something like a high control group.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, which is, you know, a, uh, I don’t want to name any right now, but there’s, you know, a handful out there, um, some of whom have been busted up, some are still active, but these dynamics, these erotic kind of, um, things or the power dynamic things can always kinda like. Be things that attract us. But once we all kind of become more aware of that
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Kind
Joe Moore: of a little bit [00:31:00] metacognitive maybe. Mm-hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: We
Joe Moore: can kind of protect ourselves and each other. What do you think?
Dr Cat Meyer: You know what, there, I had once had this really awesome therapist years ago who asked me, are you aware of what parts of you are getting their needs met through being a therapist? And I was like, Ooh.
Dr Cat Meyer: Uh, that’s a good question because it’s, it’s funny, we choose these careers or we choose these things and if we’re not aware of, um, what parts of us originally picked it, um, then I don’t think we’re in, in the power of it. We’re not in the power seat of it. And that isn’t to say that there can’t be also a connection of altruism and, and, you know, desire to help people.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um. There may also be another part in there too. And not to shame that part either. It’s just like, oh, I’m, I’m very aware there’s a part of me that’s, whether it’s feeling power in this role of knowledge and helping somebody or this, um, I’m getting the attention [00:32:00] with somebody who’s un their undivided attention on me that I didn’t get when I was younger or, um, uh, I get to intellectually get off on analyzing so many and, and just so it’s, it’s, uh, yeah.
Dr Cat Meyer: It’s, it’s things like that, the nuance, there’s the nuance thing there. Um, it’s not direct. It’s, it’s, um, energetic. It’s, it’s subtle. It’s flexible dynamic.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I’m just thinking about the power and like being in the power. Mm-hmm. After you get some letters after your name and a license, like, it’s a really interesting shift from like.
Joe Moore: You’re not one of the select elite until you have these mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I’ve had that kind of, I, I, I chose not to go to therapy school. I thought about it long and hard for a long time. Yeah. And I just like decided, I don’t know that that’s for me. Mm-hmm. But, you know, I’ve experienced that. Joe, you’re not a therapist thing a lot.[00:33:00]
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. I’m like, Hmm. Fascinating. I hate that.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really unfortunate. ’cause I think that that prevents us all from working together in a multidimensional, um, way where somebody’s eyes and voice in particular way of understanding or seeing something or their dis discipline can pick up something that I can’t, and then I can work with them on that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And we can, we can. We can solve some of these problems and some of these puzzles together. Um, you know, it’s kind of like looking at the, uh, archeologists and when they started working with the geologists, they started uncovering even more and more quickly the mysteries of our ancient time because archeologists don’t necessarily know the science of the rocks and the minerals and, and so it’s just, yeah, there’s space for all of us to work together.
Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for that. And I, [00:34:00] um, wanna kind of pivot, um, I had something really good. Okay, here it is. I think I got it again. So, you know, people hear this kind of, oh, sex and psychedelics are like, oh, burning Man, orgy Dome, everybody’s gonna get super high on acid or MDMA and everybody’s having sex with everybody.
Joe Moore: And it’s like, that’s not exactly what we’re talking about. Um, and we’re, you know, I think that’s kind of one of the intellectual. Traps when we start thinking about this. Mm-hmm. As opposed to like, what, what can it unveil? Mm-hmm. Or could it open up for possibility wise, um, for people as in like greater intimacy or all of those, like you’ve had some really good lists earlier of like what people might be looking for.
Joe Moore: And I think, yeah, it’s still the same list. Roughly speaking for the general sex conversation, there might though be some access to things via tantra that are kind of beyond that list, maybe.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I dunno, how did I trigger anything? You wanna go off on there?
Dr Cat Meyer: Y yeah. A lot of things. Um, great.[00:35:00]
Dr Cat Meyer: So we can start with, um, actually I can probably answer ’em both at the same time. So I’m working on a model to help people to understand that that erotic evolution can happen on a couple of different levels, across many different categories. So it can start with awareness. As the first step, you know, becoming aware of the con cognitive constructs, you know, the definitions, how we’re identifying ourselves.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, and then it can move into intelligence when we apply what the awareness is and, and we gain more of a, um, interaction with, with these definitions or these roles or these energetics or these emotions. Like how do emotions affect our eroticism, um, and, uh, and sex. And then at the peak of that is acuity, you know, mastery.
Dr Cat Meyer: And that’s where you might, um, you know, study deep [00:36:00] into sacred, sacred sexuality in tantra or, um, become a master in, in BDSM. And, and and what does that even mean? And that can, um, to me, or the fluidity of roles. And to me, when I think of the mastery, it’s like. The full integration and ponten, spontaneous flow of creativity, of our embodiment of these roles that you might see of leadership, follower, masculine, feminine, um, receptive, um, initiator, uh, where you’re not thinking about it, you’re just fully in the dance of it.
Dr Cat Meyer: So I, ILII like to parse it out like that. You can go into sexual evolution and be at any one of those points, and it’s beautiful. It’s any three, one of those three is even better than just being unconscious, which so many of us are [00:37:00] unconsciously driven by the programs and the schemas in the world that the world’s provided to us Now.
Dr Cat Meyer: Many people might be, or, or people might be afraid to go into sex and psychedelics because of those images that you just presented. Um, I also believe that people are afraid to go into this, I guess this likens to that. Um, because what if they go overboard? What if they, they, they like it too much? What if they lose themselves to chaos and, and orgies and body parts everywhere?
Dr Cat Meyer: And it’s insatiable. And I’ve heard that from the narratives of women that I’ve worked with. You know, they’re afraid to get into their, their sexuality or they’re afraid to go to play parties or they’re afraid to make out with women ’cause they’re afraid they’re gonna like it too much and that they’ll be, um.[00:38:00]
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. That they’ll, they’ll burn up and burn out. And with that, I really believe that I am a great embodiment of the feral archetype, meaning like, I have rewild myself and I love being, um, expressively pervasive, uh, perverted. And I love to, um, uh, uh, say sexual innuendos and sex jokes. And, and I love, love the play of that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And I love being wild. I love wearing my underwear around the house and, and just doing, you know, whatever, whatever the fuck I want. And, um, but with that, I don’t burn out because I’ve built such a strong containment of myself.
Joe Moore: Hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: And so the, the, um, development of the skills to be chaos. Is only as supportive and growth inducing as we have a strong [00:39:00] container, and I’m meaning this for ourselves because in in the cultural dialogue, I hear a lot of this like, um, feminine needs a good, strong masculine, you know, or, or a woman can be fully expressed when she has a man that has, you know, can hold her in that and all of her rage and chaos and all that stuff.
Dr Cat Meyer: And the, the challenge with that narrative is that when we don’t develop these for ourselves, we might be outsourcing these skills to somebody else. And then what is our discernment of that person that we’re asking to be that role for us? And that’s where it becomes very tricky. I taught a this, um, class called Feminine Femme Chaos to women who were, um, uh, sugar babies.
Dr Cat Meyer: And they were really wanting to find their power in their, in their eroticism and their sexuality. And so these questions were, um, you know, when you build containment of yourself, [00:40:00] that is things like presence, self-regulation, um, uh, uh, consent negotiation, um, advocacy, direct communication, directness, you know, that builds a sense of intrinsic safety for yourself.
Dr Cat Meyer: And if you don’t have that, you might be looking for somebody to provide these things for you. And this is unconscious. Like, I’m like, you can consciously say, Hey, can you pay for my things? And it’s totally, totally okay. Um, but. When you’re unconsciously wanting somebody else to fill those holes for you or, or hold that for you so we can be in full chaos and expression and, and, you know, all over the place, um, that we might not realize what we’re paying out of our power, out of our safety, out of our, um, you know, anything else that we might be giving up.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, we do this, many of us do this all the time. We’re just not aware of it. Um, [00:41:00] but on the flip side of that, the chaos is full expression. How do we teach ourselves to be in our fullest expression? And, um, the world may not meet us there. There are many times where I’ve said something pervy or sexual and did not land.
Dr Cat Meyer: Did not land. And um, I’ve also built the ability to not, um, collapse in that. I’m like, whoop. Usually I’ll say something like, whoop, that did not land. Tell me how that translated for you. You know? Mm-hmm. But because I have that strong container of myself, I don’t, I don’t need to collapse or fall apart in that.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, it’s taking time. But that’s, those are the skills I think can be helpful. So then we can go to an orgy and be able to say no when we don’t want something. Or we can go to a, um, a, uh, sexual trauma, uh, sexual healing tantric shamanic retreat to learn skills. And because the [00:42:00] facilitator is in a role to teach us, we might say, override our yes or yeah, override our no to say yes for the sake of healing, but that actually doesn’t do it.
Dr Cat Meyer: And it, and it hurts us even more. ’cause we don’t have that sense of, of self containment for ourselves to be able to say no. Mm. Or believe we can.
Joe Moore: Um, I’m gonna pull up a picture that I took yesterday.
Dr Cat Meyer: Oh,
Joe Moore: it’s relevant here.
Dr Cat Meyer: Okay, well, I wonder how relevant.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yes. Oh my God, that’s so cute. So say, says, stay feral with a, what is that?
Dr Cat Meyer: A possum?
Joe Moore: Yeah. With a bow on the head. Um, I like it. Yeah. I’ve been like, kind of like leaning into the term feral a lot lately. Um, as like, I don’t know, there’s, it seems like there is something kind of fundamentally broken about the cultural [00:43:00] container we’re in. Um, I don’t know if it’s fundamental, but it, it appears to be part of the fabric of how everybody’s showing up.
Joe Moore: They’re mediated through this, this kind of cultural container that doesn’t allow people to be wild.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah.
Joe Moore: To be. Uh, feral. Um, I like the term feral mystic a lot.
Dr Cat Meyer: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Kind of like working on that one a little bit. Mm. What is that? Yeah, what is
Dr Cat Meyer: that? Tell me. Um, well,
Joe Moore: you know, there’s, there’s some in what you said there that kind of like flows right into it.
Joe Moore: It’s like, um, who, who is the authority I’m gonna bend a knee to, or like take a knee to it’s mm-hmm. You know, it’s not Elon. Um, it’s not the orange guy, and it’s like, not, like there’s not, I, I can’t see too many things that I would want to take a knee to, you know? Um, I think taking a knee to your own divinity is the thing.
Joe Moore: Um, and that is the kind of essence of the feral mystic. It’s like, oh, mm-hmm. I’m the thing. We are the thing. Mm-hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] The word feral comes from become moving from a domestic state to a rewilding state. And I think that that is a really powerful. Uh, word to, to stand, stand behind, um, as were re rewilding again.
Dr Cat Meyer: But again, it comes back to what I said earlier. There’s power in feeling. There’s power in feeling because we learn the communication of our body and then that, that is, that is our, uh, authentic self authority, and that’s really powerful. Um, there’s, while there is a part of me that has a lot of concern around what’s happening in, in the bigger culture at large, there’s a part of me that has a deep belief in, in teaching people to feel, again, teaching people to come back and write relationship with their body.
Dr Cat Meyer: So that power comes from. [00:45:00] From, you know, from, from the ground up instead of the top down from, from the people that are necessarily in our leaderships. And so, um, that’s what I believe that I feel really strongly for that.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’ve been abstracted from all power sources and I think like, figuring out where those are for us and it’s like self ownership.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, in a lot of ways and
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: There’s a, there’s a sign at, I guess here we go. There’s a sign when I was driving by DPW one day and I was just like, no masters and there’s a giant guillotine. I’m like, oh boy, you guys are living live and burning in different,
Joe Moore: oh my Lord. Like,
Joe Moore: oh my god. Wow. And, um, yeah.
Joe Moore: And then one of my friend camps, um, hush hush pony bar, and they actually had like a whole guillotine like gag that you actually would, would work through, and you kind of like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Get your, get your head chopped off. I’m like, oh my God. This is really a cultural moment right now. But also like, you know.
Joe Moore: Taking [00:46:00] your own power back in a certain way, symbolically or otherwise, like, I think is really important because as empires collapse, like the people are still there.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: People survive collapse. Me too. Of, you know. Mm-hmm. Um, Europe did okay after the collapse of the Roman Empire kind of took a little bit.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But they did it. Yeah. Or it evolved
Dr Cat Meyer: like all these places, you know, and that’s something that we need to remember is the constant evolution of the world. The mixing of cultures, the inspiration, the, the melting pot that eventually happens across the globe and, and the ebbs flow shifts. Like it, um, yeah, I’m watching that, you know, the cycles.
Dr Cat Meyer: The repetition of cycles for a millennia. Like a lot of this is not really even new. It’s, it’s just a repeated cycle. We’ve heard these stories again. Um, there’s a lot of people that are going back into the remembrance of [00:47:00] ancient times and history. It’s really powerful to hear people talk about that. Uh, it’s also really important with that, that we check, uh, the interpretations because there’s also a lot of misinterpretations of these things too.
Dr Cat Meyer: And, um, uh, the power of mythology, I guess is important to, um, used to have our own individual interpretations. So it can be that too. Think how much are we gonna know the actual truth of things. So maybe there is space for the, the interpretation. I think that’s just as important.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: There’s so much room for, you know, play in a lot of these areas. Um. Speaking of play, um,
Dr Cat Meyer: oh, I don’t do that.
Joe Moore: So there is, um, just kidding. I, at this great talk last night about like bringing more play into therapy and making therapy [00:48:00] feel like, um, like improv and play can be really, you know, convivial or deadly serious.
Joe Moore: And, um, you know, burning Man’s an example of that. You know, you get the little rubber chickens everywhere. Mm-hmm. Or people are playing with their lives and it’s, it says on the ticket you can die. Mm-hmm. So, you know, there’s, uh, it’s fascinating and I, I see this kind of like, um. Play engine. Mm-hmm. As I think one of our larger opportunities for cultural transformation.
Joe Moore: How do you, how do you like to sit with this kind of concept?
Dr Cat Meyer: Oh, I am the queen of play. I love, love play. I’ve done a lot of research around play and try to keep a pulse on what, what new comes out around play. Um, Stuart Brown does a lot of research around the concept of play and really, um, helps us, helps to define it for us.
Dr Cat Meyer: And it’s, and it’s when we, um, uh, intrinsically are drawn to [00:49:00] do, start doing something, um, there’s no end goal or achievement. Um, a desired outcome per se. It’s more for the desire to do the thing. Um, we’re not in the self-consciousness, um, around doing it right or wrong, and we lose ourselves to it. So flow state, like we lose ourselves to the time, um, or we lose track of time in that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And we all have different ways of playing. There are, uh, some of us are more kinesthetics, some of us are more like, we like collecting things, and that’s a form of play. Some of us like competition. Some of us play in being a director role. Some of us play in, um, creation of art and some of us have play through research.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, I will spend hours researching something and it’s so much fun for me. Love it. I literally drool, uh, for doing it. And, and I believe that that’s [00:50:00] really important for us too because many people or, or the concept of play in society has a lesser priority than say something with a achievement or something that we produce or something.
Dr Cat Meyer: And yet play rejuvenates us with energy. Play also, uh, requires us to be so present with the things that are available to us. You know, improv is an excellent example. We are present to what’s here and we use what’s here. Um, improv, uh, dinner playing. Cooking dinner. You go to your kitchen, uh, you go open your refrigerator.
Dr Cat Meyer: What do I have to engage with to, to, uh, you know, um, participate with. And when we play, there’s the opportunity of, uh, trying something on. We don’t know if it’s gonna work out. And that’s not the point. And it doesn’t matter. We’re experimenting. It also allows [00:51:00] us to, um, uh, oh, where was I going with that? Um.
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, uh, engage with things that might otherwise be incredibly vulnerable. Think about sex. I do, I, I instruct people to do play labs where they go into like 30 minutes with their partner. They bring in whatever they want, a specific position or a toy or an activity. And for 30 minutes they’re playing, they’re experimenting, they’re trying it out, they’re doing different things, seeing what happens.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then after, on the other side of that, they process, they talk what worked, what did they like, what didn’t they like? And now we’re not attaching our personal value to whether something didn’t work. I wanna use this, this, this butt plug. I don’t know if it’s gonna work, but let’s try it out that way I’m not a failure to my partner, or I’m not a failure to myself because we did that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And then when we’re talking about this on more of the [00:52:00] cultural level. Um, burning Man is an excellent example of play, of bringing in the guillotines and bringing in the perverted signs of, um, I make these really unhinged street signs that, you know, it’ll, it’ll be like a stop sign and I’ll write, um, nonstop anal on it, you know, or don’t stop Daddy or, uh, um, when did I, I had one this year that I put rhinestones on it, and it’s originally said parking in rear and I put parking in her rear, and I was just jumping around with those, passing them out to people, letting, let people play with it.
Dr Cat Meyer: And it allows us the ability to engage with sex, with, with, um, you know, perverted in a way, in a fun way. We’re engaging with it. It’s not, I’m not taking it on as, um, any end goal. Accept the joy of it. [00:53:00] And people get to test their, their feelings around it or what comes up for them, or how do they feel when they’re holding that they feel taboo.
Dr Cat Meyer: This is naughty. Oh my God, I’m holding this fucking sign. It’s really an inch and I’m doing it, and it’s, how does it feel for me?
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, burning Man. Uh, you know, coming back to what you said, you know, these things, there’s so many of these unhinged things that are said, and there are times where I’ve taken, taken things out and I’m like, oh my God, how are people gonna respond to this? And Burning Man is a great place to try this part of us out.
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, somebody might have offense to it. Um, and we can be with that. And, and again, do we collapse? Do we try to, do we go into, um, over-explaining or do we just allow somebody to have a, uh, uh, a different perspective? They don’t understand me and the discomfort of somebody not understanding me, um, [00:54:00] is a really great lesson.
Dr Cat Meyer: We all get to learn.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, yeah, it is an interesting place. Do you, like, how do you, 30 seconds or less, what is Burning Man to you? Like what? Um, so like, how, how do we, like, how do you like to talk about Burning Man? Like, I kind of don’t know that I like talking about Burning Man other than telling people not to go. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, oh my God. And making jokes like Burning Man’s ruined my life and stuff like that, where I’m like, you know, on one hand, super serious, on the other hand, total joke. And it’s like, you know, what else can I think about now? You know, now that I’ve, I’ve done this weird thing and engaged in it too much. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, you,
Dr Cat Meyer: you know, it depends on who I’m talking to. Um, on Instagram, I’ve, I’ve gone for 10 years in a row, including the Renegade Burn and I. Uh, talk about what [00:55:00] I get out of the experience every time. ’cause to me it’s like a ceremonial experience. I go in there with an intention and then, um, and then I meet whatever experience come happens there.
Dr Cat Meyer: Mm-hmm. And after that, I’m, I’m journaling a lot and processing because there’s lessons I learn, there’s skills I learned, there’s ways I showed up that might be different than, than what I’ve done before. Um, I always do a different experience. I even one year camped, uh, completely solo in my own tent, um, with my own AC unit and, and tried that.
Dr Cat Meyer: And I met the part of me that, um, was self-reliant and could go out into the world and make friends and make joy and fun everywhere with every situation. I didn’t stop smiling the whole time and that was really important for me to learn another year. It was, um, my dad had just died and I went out there and shit, hit the fan everywhere and it was the hardest burn.
Dr Cat Meyer: I was also solo camping by myself ’cause I tried to repeat the year before. And what was powerful was to see all these dads come forward [00:56:00] and help me in each of these situations. So there was something really, um, important for me to learn, like the, the surrender into help and, um, as radical reliant as I felt that I was in the year before this one was, I need help.
Dr Cat Meyer: I need to be held. Um, there was one year I, I had been studying a lot around the Ellucian mysteries and um, Brian Morocco’s work is one of ’em. Um, the author of the Immortality Key and what I saw was. Burning man as a sense of allucian mystery, as in you take a journey and follow me with this. But you take a journey and it may be hard, and you arrive at this place where, uh, this container of ecstatic states, um, mystery, uh, drugs in psychedelics, you know, um, meeting other [00:57:00] people, expanded consciousness, um, spontaneous, um, ply providing you with something that you, you manifested or you were wanting.
Dr Cat Meyer: And, and, and so I saw it from more of like a, a, a mystical sense. Um, in that year. And so every year it’s, it’s something new and different. I think it’s just a container if you wanna treat it as such for evolution, personal evolution, or you can treat it, you know, it’s like the sacred and profane. It can be something that’s really sacred.
Dr Cat Meyer: It can also be profanity and it can be the combination of both of those where sacredness can be found in profanity. Um, you know, the divinity and the humanness. Um, when I’m saying sacred and profane, I’m referring to the humanness of that, and both of ’em can exist at the same exact time.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joe Moore: There’s so much there in this like weird cultural experiment and there’s the best and [00:58:00] worst of humanity there. Mm-hmm. Everybody brings their best and worst to burning man. Yep. And it’s like, um, I, you know, I’ve learned so much. I’ve only gone four in a row. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um.
Joe Moore: I, you know, made a ridiculous decision to bring an art car second year, and you learned,
Dr Cat Meyer: I’ve learned a
Joe Moore: lot and, um, Uhhuh.
Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s fascinating and there’s so much education that can happen there. Self knowledge, you’re like, oh. And, you know, hopefully you have people to help you, um, kind of learn from it too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, how did I show up? Super fucked up here.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you
Joe Moore: for telling me. Yeah, yeah.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. And I also think it’s such a microcosm of the macro world, you know, as much as it wants to be, it has this desire to be, um, non-central government that’s created as much as it wants to be free from judgment and, and you know, like a fluidity of a mix of people.
Dr Cat Meyer: There’s judgment, [00:59:00] there’s darkness, there’s curmudgeon, there’s, there’s crustiness, there’s, um, you can’t do this thing because you have money and, and you can’t plug and play. You can’t do this like. That’s exactly what the rest of the world is looking like. So it’s, I don’t, and I also don’t see anything wrong with that either.
Dr Cat Meyer: It’s just a mirror. Like it’s just a, this is what happens when you grow a society to be as big as it is. Um, does it turn up emulating the world that we’re trying to not be like?
Joe Moore: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And what do you think about like, um, pop media’s kind of presentation of it in the last couple years where it’s like the focus is on orgy dom only?
Joe Moore: Yeah. That’s a mirror and a half. Yeah. That’s all you know about. Yeah. And that’s interesting.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. People like sensationalism. People want entertainment. They wanna hear that there was cannibalism at Burning Man and [01:00:00] Ebola, you know, broke out in Mud Burn. You know, like, because, and here’s the thing is like media as entertainment, um, brings feeling into the body.
Dr Cat Meyer: It’s since it’s, it’s sensation, it’s panic, it’s anxiety, it’s fear, it’s, you know, like all these, um, uh, feelings where our everyday life might be really mundane. It might be, we might be numb to every day. We might be. So, uh, how many of us are reading. The news, you know, in, in this case, burning Man. Um, for the excitement, oh my God, that happened.
Dr Cat Meyer: Wow. That’s, I can’t even believe there’s an orgy dome where people have sex next to each other. Like, what? You know, so I, I, I just, I, I kind of laugh at it. I’m like, I remember after Mud burn, um, walking out, you know, two miles. And just being super joyful and going into [01:01:00] the, um, uh, what do you call that, the casinos, um, to clean up and, and rest finally, you know, ’cause I was exhausted and feeling I was in a totally different dimension walking through the casino floor.
Dr Cat Meyer: And people, you know, I look grungy, I look totally dirty, totally smelly. And people are like, you’re coming from, from from Burning Man. Did you get that Ebola? You know? And I’m like, I’m like, huh, yeah, I can’t, I can’t handle this right now. Um, no, I did not. But it’s interesting. But they’re, they’re like, it’s exciting for, for, um, the world and, um.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah, we’re looking for entertainment, we’re looking for life. We’re looking for, you know, here’s the, coming back to eroticism, the word ologist, aliveness. And so are we finding aliveness in these, these, uh, shocking sensationalized news and yeah. Maybe. [01:02:00] Mm-hmm. Or do we wanna come into the vulnerable feeling aspect of pleasure, but most people don’t want that.
Dr Cat Meyer: ’cause that takes time.
Joe Moore: Right, right. Um, yeah. There’s so much here to dig into. Um, so we’re at roughly speaking time. We don’t need to hurry, but I wanna, you know, respect your day and like what are, what are some maybe kind of gems you or things we didn’t hit that you might wanna leave folks with as we kind of work towards the end here?
Joe Moore: Hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: Oh, here’s something, um, I shared with you before we started recording. Um, so I had been, for the last eight, nine months, I’ve been dealing with long COVID symptoms, um, that activated my Epstein bar activated, um, old mold, uh, uh, poisoning that I had, uh, a couple years ago. Hmm. [01:03:00] And it’s left me for the eight months feeling, uh, dealing with chronic fatigue, foggy brain, um, pain in my body, like waking up and having pain in my body.
Dr Cat Meyer: Like all the inflammation markers were through the roof. And it tanked my hormones and it tanked my, um, cortisol levels and it tanked, like it just brought the worst out of the physical body. And I think so many people are struggling with this and they don’t know what they can do, um, as it relates to their sex life.
Dr Cat Meyer: Like right now, I’m working with amazing functional doctors who have me, you know, um, doing ozone and hormone therapy and, and um, you know, working with inflammation, glutathione, things like that. However, during this process, it was the greatest lesson for me of how do you stay erotic? How do you continue to nurture your sex life with yourself and with your partner [01:04:00] amid chronic illness, chronic pain, chronic fatigue?
Dr Cat Meyer: And the solution of that is coming into relationship with pleasure. And I’m gonna explain that more versus just what’s regurgitated on social media. Pleasure is really important. Pleasure. Um, is that the feel good sensation in our body when we can relax our nervous system to, to connect with it? In therapy, I teach this very basic practice called glimmers and glows.
Dr Cat Meyer: This is a somatic practice that when we stop and we can consciously connect with something in our environment, um, that might feel good and a feel good. Um, for people who, who, who haven’t had pleasure in their bodies or don’t have those reference points, is this subtle expansion of the body. We shift, um, into the parasympathetic system and, and, [01:05:00] uh, things open a little bit.
Dr Cat Meyer: Um, I have birds outside. I leave my windows open, I hear the birds outside and I’ll, I’ll just stop for a moment and hear the birds and I feel my body shift into that parasympathetic state and it feels nice. Now, that’s a glimmer and if you stay connected with that 30 seconds to a minute. Even it shifts into what’s called a glow, and it expands and deepens that regulated state and it expands the threshold of what you can tolerate.
Dr Cat Meyer: So pleasure is very important for the health of our nervous system, just on a basic level. Um, it’s not really basic, but on that, on that foundational level. Um, now when we’re chronically fatigued, when we’re in pain, a lot of times we don’t want to be in the body ’cause that’s where the source of this is.
Dr Cat Meyer: And yet you can connect with pleasure through just your [01:06:00] breath. Like if everybody just pauses and takes a slow breath in and a slow breath out, there’s something pleasurable about doing that. Or if you walk outside, I do this practice, um, I live in, um, in the mountains and I’ll go out for a walk and just be in tune with the sensations, the birds, the wind, the, the sound of the trees, the, the wind going through the trees, the feeling of my, uh, feet on the earth or the, my bare feet on the earth.
Dr Cat Meyer: And that increases your sensitivity, relaxes the body, especially if there’s any clenching going on in the body because of pain or, or fatigue. And you can see the whole body have a state change. It may not get rid of the, the pain, but, but there’s, you’re, you’re developing a relationship with the body still, or, um, when you’re engaging in with your partner.[01:07:00]
Dr Cat Meyer: You know, bringing in the presence, bringing in the slowness, connecting to what feels good, and acknowledging where you’re at. There were times where I told my partner, I don’t want penetration or I don’t want to orgasm. I even said, I don’t wanna orgasm, because it took a lot of energy in that moment and I didn’t have any.
Dr Cat Meyer: So allowing ourselves to, to fall into like a melted state of just touching and breathing and enjoying each other. And sometimes that would open up to more and sometimes that wouldn’t. But that continual coming back to things like that, while also honoring where the point, where the end point actually is, where the limit actually is, prevented me from going into a zero to 100, um, pattern of nothing at all or all the way.
Dr Cat Meyer: So many people do. If they start flirting, this is [01:08:00] gonna go to penetration, and I don’t want that, so I’m not gonna flirt at all. You know? Or, um, if I start making out with them, that’s gonna go to penetration. I don’t want that. So I’m just not gonna make out at all. I’m just gonna push their hand off of me.
Dr Cat Meyer: And that’s unfortunate because we’re losing all of these other realms that we might actually be available for or can even contribute to both our healing, um, of the physical body as well as the relationship.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. So that’s what I’ll tell people, like, just because there’s pain, just because you’re sick or just because you’re in this state doesn’t mean all of that’s not available to you. And, and you just, you can start with small things and that’s actually incredibly profound. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. It moves the door, um, the perceived realm of possibility and a lot of other things and mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Actually getting pleasures, just medical. So, um, it is, it is.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. [01:09:00] And if you need psychedelic help, you know, think that that might also, might be available for you too. Ketamine is an antic. It’s, you know, prevents pain. It helps with some of the pain. So, um, or it helps lift the heaviness of depression and anxiety so that you can feel, connect and pleasure again or, um, so you can be in your body more easily too.
Joe Moore: Hmm. So where can people find out more about your private practice and workshops and mm-hmm. Other things you have going on?
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah, so they can go to dr kat meyer.com. That’s D-R-C-A-T-M-E-Y-E r.com. Um, they can also find me on Instagram at the same name. And, uh, my podcast is Sex Love Psychedelics on Spotify and, and, uh, iTunes and all those, all those podcasty things.
Joe Moore: Outstanding. Amazing. Well, Dr. K Myers has been lovely. Thank you so much. [01:10:00] I hope we get to do more. Um, we had a lovely conversation a while ago about the history of a lot of this stuff, and yeah, it’d be fun to dig into that in the future if you’re up for it.
Dr Cat Meyer: Oh God, let’s do it. Let’s be nerds and dig, dig deep into the past.
Dr Cat Meyer: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Love it. Well, thank you so much and, um, until next time. Appreciate it.
Dr Cat Meyer: Thank you.
Joe Moore interviews Dee Dee Goldpaugh, LCSW about their new book Embrace Pleasure: How Psychedelics Can Heal Our Sexuality. The discussion covers the book’s reception, critiques of over-medicalization, personal healing experiences, definitions of erotic energy and pleasure, historical repression of substances, and contemporary ethical concerns.
Conversion therapy: historical use of psychedelics in conversion practices, risks today, and need for professional consensus to ban psychedelic-assisted conversion therapy.
Motivation: reaction to dominance of the clinical/medical model in psychedelics.
Author background: clinical social worker, ketamine-assisted therapy provider, sexual abuse survivor, early psychedelic integration work.
Personal healing: ayahuasca and San Pedro (Wachuma) experiences leading to embodied healing and pleasure.
Concepts defined: erotic energy as life force; distinction between healing pleasure and leisure.
Political framing: pleasure as anti-capitalist resistance; sustaining community and activism.
https://www.deedeegoldpaugh.com
Embrace Pleasure: How Psychedelics Can Heal Our Sexuality
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: [00:00:00] Okay, great. Yeah,
Joe Moore: we are live. Hi everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. Joe Moore here joined by Didi Gold, pa. How you doing today, Didi?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I’m doing great. I’m so happy to be here. Joe,
Joe Moore: happy to have you. It’s been, um, a long time in the works for us to make this happen, and I wanted to actually show the cover of your recent book.
Joe Moore: Um, I assume this is your first book that you’ve published.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: This is my first book, yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Embrace Pleasure. How Psychedelics Can Heal Our Sexuality. Uh, came out in July. June.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah, it’s been out about two months now and it’s been doing really, really well. I mean, it’s been a really interesting, uh, experience because as I was writing the book.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, colleagues in the field, uh, had sort of given me some level of warning about potential backlash in writing a book about psychedelics and pleasure, and, uh, warned me [00:01:00] about potential negative reaction and that, and I think that was coming from a really sincere and genuine place. And what I’ve learned in the past two months is that people have been dying to talk about this and are much more open to looking at different ways that psychedelics can be beneficial to them outside of the medical model.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, in the past two months since the book has been out, I have received dozens of emails from folks, some people sexual trauma survivors, some people just interested in exploring psychedelics that have found the book really meaningful. And every one of those emails means so much to me. It’s really been amazing.
Joe Moore: I love that. Yeah. I remember us talking about like ex uh, kind of. Predicting the heat that was gonna come your way, and like, I think you hit the right cultural moment because it’s, I don’t know, like things have gotten, become so tough and become also in, in a lot of ways so obvious that like, this is something that we need to dig [00:02:00] into and actually face squarely Absolutely.
Joe Moore: How, absolutely. How, how did that come forward for you?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah. Well, I mean, the ideas for this book really, I mean, there’s a lot of different ways I could talk about how this book came into the world, but it was really, um, an idea that, um, took hold as a response to what I saw as an an, an incredibly over medicalized, um, dominance within the field of psychedelics.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Mm-hmm. I really didn’t think that was gonna serve all people. I, I, as you know, from reading the book, feel like there is a time and place where psychedelic assisted therapy is exactly the right thing. But I mean, we had this sort of, um. Deeply capitalistic championing of the clinical model as the only safe model.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So I really wanted to start building dialogue about other ways people could think about psychedelic healing. Um, because I mean, clinical, the clinical model is just not set up to [00:03:00] actually take us into this additional step of like, well, what happens after we heal acute trauma or we’re not so depressed or anxious anymore.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: There is a whole world waiting for us that has to do with connecting to community earth relatedness, um, our sexuality and spirituality, spiritual life’s flourishing. So it felt really important to sort of build something that was an answer to that. And, and what I can assume is over the past year there’s been some really critical moments that this sort of blockbuster.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Uh, seemingly unstoppable, monolithic, psychedelic assisted therapy movement, all of a sudden got halted by a lot of practical things, the FDA, about stocks crashing. You know, we don’t have to get into all of the, the politics of the situation, but I think all of a sudden people started to think the way that this was, we were told it was all gonna go down.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Maybe isn’t exactly gonna, it’s not gonna work out that way. And what is [00:04:00] left for us. So as it turns out, um, the zeitgeist in this moment, I think of, um, you know, a lot of political uncertainty are more interested than we ever could have known about connecting with their bodies, their communities, about sexual flourishing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So it’s really just been a, an incredibly exciting moment for me.
Joe Moore: Hmm. So let’s give a little bit of your background before we kind of dig more into, uh, your. Um, your book. So how, how did kind of therapy and kind of psychedelics come forward for you mm-hmm. As a, as a social worker?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah. So I’m a clinical social worker and I’m, I am a therapy, a therapist in private practice in Woodstock, New York.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: My day-to-day life is mostly seeing therapy clients, supervising therapists. I do a lot of consulting work in the field. I do ketamine assisted therapy. Um, and, uh, you know, that has been a [00:05:00] trajectory over 18 years of, of development in a professional career. So, um, I, my personal story is so wrapped up at the heart of this book.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I had multiple different career iterations before I became a psychotherapist. And, uh, like many people, my um, movement towards working in professional mental health was part of my own healing journey. And psychedelics are very much entwined with that healing journey. So I am a sexual abuse survivor. I’m very open about that in my teaching and in the writing in the book.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, and I had. A lot of psychotherapy. I tried a lot of different, uh, modalities for healing. I got deeply involved in meditation. Um, I mean, I, I really kind of tried it all and those things helped me, but they didn’t actually heal me. And at a certain point, I had [00:06:00] had experiences with psychedelics earlier in life in contexts that we might call more recreational.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, but when I came to do work in ceremonial contexts, it all of a sudden opened up this experience for me of healing that I did not even know was possible. And that was the moment that my professional career as a therapist and my psychedelic work really started to merge. So I began, before there were just training programs everywhere to be a psychedelic integration coach or therapist.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, I was in the very, very early stages of developing psychedelic integration techniques, and I was really focusing on. Sexual trauma survivors. Um, my work is more broad than that in terms of my practice. I work with couples, individuals. I do a lot of trauma work, but not exclusively that. And, uh, I really wanted to start developing protocols that were beyond just talk therapy.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Like what, you know, talk therapy hadn’t healed me, [00:07:00] so it, why would I think that that was the only way that other people could heal too? So I was really looking at how to help people in post psychedelic states. And from there, I mean, I think my work has really taken off in the direction of not just how do we effectively integrate a psychedelic experience for an acute level of healing, but how do we take this and really make it medicine in our lives?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: How do we go from, um, I feel better to, I am engaged with the world, right? I am living a wor a life that’s worth living, that is so much at the basis of the work that I’m interested in doing with people.
Joe Moore: Yeah, I think one of the, one of the handful of things that made me kind of get excited about your book is that I’ve been talking about these kind of nons psychotherapeutic modalities for a long time, and that they can be really effective.
Joe Moore: And for instance, my chronic pain went away by, you know, listening to music and live settings. [00:08:00] Uh, and like, I’ll be really honest, overusing psychedelics and MDMA and, but my chronic pain went away. So who’s to say it was really overusing and, um, you know, me really. But I think, um, but it, you know, I’m, you know, um, on a more clean path, I guess.
Joe Moore: But there was a lot of pleasure there and there was a lot of safety and trust and fun. And I think in a lot of ways that those are big themes that you’re touching on in your book is like. It’s okay to have fun. It’s okay to feel good in my body. It’s okay to feel good with other people. And, um, you know, another point, not all pleasure is sexual.
Joe Moore: Right? Like, a lot of people read it and they’re, oh yeah, oh, sexual. Uh, and then they’re like, wait, what about eating, like, doing fun things? You know,
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: you love me. So many little gems there, I think. Okay, let me see if I can, um, piece this apart a little bit. So the first thing is, uh, the, there is sexuality is right in the title of the book, but mm-hmm.[00:09:00]
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Really what I’m interested in is very much about like, how are sexuality is actually a part of our intrinsic life force and mm-hmm. The point that you’re making, like all pleasure, sexual pleasure is a powerful form of pleasure, but so can, um, any kind of erotic experience, meaning an experience that connects us to our life force can be equally powerful and sensual.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Right. So really what I’m interested in is the erotic dancing is a great ex, a great example of that, right? Anything that connects us to our bodies with other people, I think, uh, our creative work, uh, really is pointing to this idea of erotic energy. So, um, you started your comment by talking about this idea of overuse, and obviously that’s very individual.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Like when someone says, I’m overusing something, that’s their own personal judgment as to is it causing harm in their life? There may be a lot of different factors that go into [00:10:00] overuse, but the reason that I circle back to this point is to highlight something for the listeners about my own healing process.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: We have been sold this bill of goods really, and it kind of goes under the magic bullet psychedelic umbrella that you can go and sit in, um, with a psychedelic assisted therapist and do have an experience or two even with really good integration. And that’s gonna do it. And for some people that may really help set them in the right direction.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But my book and my philosophy is really thinking about psychedelics as a path in our lives. Does it mean you have to do it all the time? No, but it actually might mean that at strategic moments in our life, we return to these medicines as a way of helping us through not only difficult experiences, but rites of passage.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I am very, very interested in how we can look at. Um, the roots of psychedelics and indigenous cultures that are still living traditions today, [00:11:00] and rather than appropriating them or feeling that we have to go into those cultures and possibly cause harm, what can we do with this blueprint to actually create a new psychedelic reality that’s relevant to us in this moment that has to do with music community coming together with an intergenerational systems of support and potentially looking at psychedelics as something that’s integrated into our lives holistically.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, for me, uh, my initial work around my trauma healing was really with ayahuasca and I did a lot of ayahuasca ceremonies before I really felt like I was in a different place. We are not talking about like one or two dosings of MDMA and a very nice therapist holding your hand. I did many ayahuasca ceremonies over many years and, um.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I do talk about this as, um, sort of a key life experience that, uh, gave rise to the [00:12:00] philosophy in the book. But during my last Ayahuasca ceremony, I got a message from the medicine to go and receive healing from Wachuma Medicine, which is San Pedro. And it’s a very different kind of medicine, right? It’s more the chemical cousin of MDMA.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: It’s very heart-centered. Um, and it can also be deeply, deeply mystical as I’m learning. So I go to Peru and I don’t even know at this point what it is that I’m supposed to be healing because all of a sudden I’m not in this traumatized state anymore. I’m not ruled by trauma. I feel quite embodied. I feel like I’m doing well in my life and in my relationships, but I get this really clear message that this is the direction I’m supposed to be going in.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So I’m in Peru. I start working with Chuma Medicine, with the, with a teacher there, and. This really is the story that forms, um, the entire jumping off point for the book because it was the first day of my life that I experienced being [00:13:00] alive and awake and connected to the earth and connected to my body with no thought of trauma at all.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: There was not heavy processing happening. There was just beauty and expansiveness and love. I was being held on the earth in this expansive state of love and ecstasy, and that’s what really turned me onto this idea that this is the piece we are just not telling people about. It isn’t all hard work. Hard work is the thing that gets you to this place that you really get the healing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: That was the healing. I just didn’t know it at the time. I, I did all of this really heavy trauma processing and thought, well, I’m pretty healed now. And, and to a lot of people I was, but I didn’t actually realize how absent that kind of expansive state of pleasure was in my life until I had these deeper experiences with Wachuma [00:14:00] that turned me on to the fact that like, this kind of love and pleasure is available to us at any moment.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, um, I want to go back and just try to like define a term because mm-hmm. You know, I think some people won’t. Me too. Like I have a little bit of a hard time like figuring out the, the use case for the term erotic and you used it earlier. Mm. And it was kind of like an interplay between two people maybe, or how do you like to use that or define that?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah. Great. Um, well. I think of the erotic, um, I’m drawing, there’s a really powerful essay written by Audra Lorde that’s called Uses of the Erotic. And I really, um, integrate her definition and it’s the erotic energy is really our life force energy. It is anything that falls into the realm of the expansive, the liminal, the creative.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: [00:15:00] So I think of sexuality as a component of the erotic, but I think of the erotic almost as this raw energy that exists within our bodies. That gets expressed in all different kinds of ways. And it can be expressed in through, as I said, through um, a connection with another person, but it can also just be our own personal creative output.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: We’re whenever we’re in that expansive state of, um, of connecting to the world, um, so we’re really starting to, uh, develop a little bit of a chain here of how different terms connect because. We can start with this idea of the, the erotic as being this energy within us that’s creative and expansive and connects us to the world and other people.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And then I think maybe like the next step on that chain is thinking about when we talk about spirituality and the development of spirituality, which I believe is linked. I think about that from a very pragmatic place. And it’s how connected are we? How connected are we [00:16:00] to the divine within ourselves, to the earth, to other people?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And then I think the next link in that chain that’s worth defining in this conversation is, what do I even mean when I’m talking about pleasure? So, you know, the pleasure is the, um, you know, the, the, the large letter title of the book. But it’s an incredibly misunderstood concept because I am not making any kind of argument that anything we might consider just in our colloquial language as pleasurable, is gonna necessarily be healing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: In fact, those things can be the very things that hold us back from being as self-actualized as we can possibly be because we might consider it pleasurable to scroll on our phones all day, or any other kind of behavior that can become repetitive. And actually, um, I think in, in a lot of ways we become addicted to those behaviors because we are, um, trying very hard to survive in a very hard world.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So distracting ourselves makes a lot of [00:17:00] sense, and I would put that under the umbrella of leisure pleasure as I’m talking about it as something that heals us and connected to the erotic. Is any moment when we are awake and alive with a quality of mindfulness and savoring the sensual. So it must be something where our attention is there, our body is present, we are open, expansive, and alive.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I believe those kinds of moments truly do heal us. And so it, it really is important to think about these terms and how they connect and also that pleasure. And what I haven’t found a better word for than leisure are actually two really different things with different outcomes and utility in our life because, um, I’m not anti lesure.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, I think that it’s necessary, but real joy and real pleasure actually has a much bigger resonance that tips into the spiritual and the erotic and also the political. [00:18:00]
Joe Moore: Hmm. Do you wanna jump into the political aspects here? I think that’s a good bridge.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Sure. Absolutely. So I see pleasure as a tool of anti-capitalist political empowerment.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I think this is a really, really important point because as I was writing this book and I’ve been out speaking at conferences and doing podcasts and talking about the book, every time I come to talk about this book, there’s a little part of me that feels really responsible to share something about why it’s important to talk about pleasure right now.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Because we are in a moment, I think, of tremendous political uncertainty. There is so much fear about the rise of fascism in this country. We are witnessing political violence all around us, and in my experience, people are more scared than I have ever experienced in my lifetime about what kind of [00:19:00] future we’re facing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So it can be. Edgy to talk about pleasure, be promoting pleasure within this political paradigm. So why is it important? I actually believe that pleasure, as I’m describing it, this meaningful kind of pleasure is what we need to remain politically empowered. Because if we continue to try to create some kind of resistance in the face of violence, we will become depressed and depleted.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And what is the thing that actually helps us to stand together and to have the self self-energy to keep standing up in the face of oppression? And I believe that we have to be nourished by this connection to other people. We need to join together in community and dance and listen to music and make music and tell [00:20:00] stories.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And support each other. Our body has to be nourished in this way, or we just simply will not be able to be effective. The other facet that I would mention of this is we are in this incredibly consumerized capitalist society, that we are in this massive overconsumption of information and overconsumption of stuff.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But if we really come to realize that so much of what we need to make us feel good resides in our bodies right at this moment, with nothing else required, but creating the space to drop into our human relationships and enjoy our bodies, uh, it really, really disrupts the message that we need to be continually consuming.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And so in that way, I think we can look at the act of pleasure as a, a politically empowered act and, and in fact, uh, an act of resistance and activism. [00:21:00]
Joe Moore: Yeah, I love that. Um, and I think, you know, there’s big historical roots that we chatted about earlier as well, and I think, um, you know, I was, I was trying to go, you know, thousands of years ago, um, but I think like more poignant as kind of the points you were making.
Joe Moore: Could you bring up some examples of like kind of repression from the last, uh, couple hundred years or more recently?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah, so there’s a section in early in the book and, um, I, to my knowledge, I shall say that different authors have written about these, uh, phenomenon independently, but I don’t, I couldn’t find any examples of where anyone had put this together chronologically as it’s laid out in my book.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So one of the arguments I make in the book is that the war on drugs is a war on pleasure. And what do I mean by that? We often think of the drug war as sort of starting with the Controlled Substances Act in Richard Nixon, and that is clearly a [00:22:00] very notable event that has impacted prohibition and the circumstances under which psychedelic work takes place today.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, but actually if we go back in history, the first anti-narcotics ordinances happen in 1875, and they’re targeting opium dens. So it’s not just that that authorities were interested in targeting opium, it was that white women would attend opium dens and there was a, they wanted to create a reason to raid opium dens and prevent.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, intermixing and sexual relationships between Chinese men and white women. So anti or anti-narcotics ordinances, uh, took place. Our next stop in this is, uh, peyote. So peyote is a sacrament in the Native American church and, um, under totally different circumstances, right? Peyote is used for community empowerment, for [00:23:00] spiritual empowerment.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But when the federal government wanted to, um, try to outlaw or ban practices relating to peyote, one of the chief ways they did that was to just try to disseminate rumors that peyote was going to, was being used for orgies and that young women were being given peyote and would be morally compromised and will be unable to assimilate to whiteness.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: We then have laws against cannabis and the. Propaganda at that time and, and cocaine as well. But cannabis has this really particular history where even the language marijuana, which I don’t know that I mentioned this fact in the book, but the languaging of, of cannabis transitioning to marijuana was to make it sound more associated with the global south.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So you wanna associate this subject, uh, this, this substance rather with black and brown men, and that they would become sex crazed and they would wanna have sex with white [00:24:00] women, and that the white women doing this. Substance, um, could remain morally uncompromised because you could blame the substance and you could blame the man of color, but you could rehabilitate the white woman.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So the next stop that we have in this trajectory really comes in this Nixon era, right? Where you have the controlled substances act as a response to, to LSD and what happens culturally right around the same time that we have, um, the cultural explosion of LSD is the advent of the pill. So all of a sudden you have these two really powerful chemicals that are helping people to connect to pleasure and sexuality, um, and are making women more politically empowered to be able to control their bodies.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Now, just worth note, I don’t mean to, um. Present this entirely rosy picture of the LSD era and the hippie era, that there was no problems there. And it was just a, um, you know, [00:25:00] that it was all wonderful for women because there were a lot of issues that we can point to that happened around that culture as well in terms of um, you know, women’s equality or lack of equality.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But it’s undeniable that this was a moment of sexual revolution and, and it was exactly that. A revolution of sexuality and a revolution of thought that made it feel so dangerous to the government. And there’s one more example that I give in the book that I think is really interesting ’cause it’s rarely looped in with this kind of bigger trajectory, and that is how MDMA came to be made illegal.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So just in. Very brief, uh, history of MDMA. You know, MDMA as many people know, before it was a scheduled substance, it was used widely in couples therapy. You know, Sheldon Resynthesize, MDMA gives it to Leo zf. All of a sudden, couples therapists are being trained to use this, and it’s effective in treatment.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: [00:26:00] Therapists are seeing great, uh, responses. When, uh, MDMA starts to get heat from the federal government is when it seeps into nightclub culture. When people start to use MDMA for joy for dancing, that’s when it gets on the radar of the federal government, and all of a sudden MDMA is a substance that we need to regulate.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So the brief addendum to that, if, if listeners don’t know, is that when the hearing happened, that did make MDMA illegal. They, the federal government or the DEA court judge, if I’m getting this correct. Um, determined based on testimony that MDMA actually did have medical utility and that decision was basically overridden and MDMA ends up on schedule one, as we know, as it remains today.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But the reason I go into this whole history is really to try to illuminate that we have a long [00:27:00] history in this culture of propaganda and prohibition that had a lot more to do with restricting people’s access to substances and fun and sex, specifically sex between races, but not exclusively that. And, and this goes all the way back to 1875.
Joe Moore: Wild, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um. I remember like looking up, uh, when we’re the first kind of like traces of like prohibition of substance, like kind of proto drug war things. And it was like kind of around, at least in Europe when tobacco came back and the, the king was like, oh, that’s gross. And it didn’t really go well.
Joe Moore: Um, but yeah, like later it just like evolved to all these other kind of things around kind of like subs, speciation, and, you know, racist, like kind of bloodline [00:28:00] stuff. And, you know, it was really fascinating and kind of ugly to watch it kind of roll out. Yeah, but that’s, you know, kind of a big part of the history of the human race is othering.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: You know, there’s one like little factoid in the book that listeners might find interesting. I was really trying to actually look for any historical evidence of fun, like, of substances being used for fun. And, uh, you know, if we look to, um, the Spanish conquest of the Americas and the repression of psilocybin and, uh, cacti cults, at that time, very rich documentation was destroyed.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So there’s little that we have, but one of the existing documents that we do have talks about the coronation of an Aztec king, where psilocybin was used specifically for merriment and enjoyment and, and, uh, dancing. So yeah, [00:29:00] we, we tend to look at indigenous practice and certainly what our perception is, is of it today, and put that into this bucket of healing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But my suspicion is that as long as people have been using these substances, they’ve been in touch with the ecstatic properties and, and we at least have a little bit of scan historical documentation that, um, psychedelic medicines were indeed used for fun.
Joe Moore: It’s important, and I think like I, I was one of my favorite.
Joe Moore: Dinners I’ve ever had was with um, two friends. One was like a classist, so like ancient Greek world, Mediterranean. The other guy was world class scholar on the Mongols. And we kind of just, that’s a dinner. Oh my gosh. We speculated for hours about the, um, possibilities of drug trade and what might’ve been used.
Joe Moore: And it was fascinating and it was like kind of obvious ’cause things were a little boring and we had to, you know, very likely if something was interesting and sellable, people were selling it and trading it. [00:30:00] Um, you know, despite any kind of like sacred elements. Um, ’cause there was, you know, traders just like running, running the Silk Road and whatever other kind of trade routes there were.
Joe Moore: So like, I think there’s a rich tradition of it, but it was often scrubbed from the books. Um. Yeah. Even like the Greek symposiums, like they drink wine, but it was really clear that the wine was with things. It wasn’t just grapes and booze. Yeah.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I mean, there’s a whole very interesting anthropological kind of branch of psychedelic studies that talks about this.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: There’s, there’s a lot of really, really fascinating books that are, um, trying to piece together histories of different ways that psychedelic medicine’s impacted our cultural development, our spiritual development. I mean, that, uh, that, um, inquiry about the psychedelic roots of religion, right? It goes all the way back to was mm-hmm.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Like some of the earliest people were really interested in this. And I mean, it’s [00:31:00] still such an emerging field where the historical evidence is being pieced together.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And a lot of work left to do, everybody. So, you know, if you wanna put on your history pants, go for it. Yeah. Love it.
Joe Moore: So, um. I, I often bring in this kind of idea that the United States was founded by Puritans. I used to, like, I was born in Massachusetts and I used to like bullshit people that everybody born in Massachusetts is issued a Puritan hat when they’re born. And I, half of people believe it, um, which is amazing to me, but it’s, you know, there’s something to it that there was a huge amount of, um, kind of, I guess religious extremists helped found this country and not, you know, they weren’t moderate in their positions.
Joe Moore: Right. So, I don’t know. Do you, do you think that has any kind of influence still?[00:32:00]
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I think it’s a more charged question than it seems like it is on the surface of it. Right? Right. ’cause this country was founded by people too conservative for England. And I don’t think that this, I don’t, I don’t think that we’re out under the thumb of that. I think we’ve got, um, it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting to me because I think we’ve got kind of these two forces that have always been in play in this country and, um, they sort of emerge and get stronger and then they ebb and they flow again, which I is this deeply Christian supremacist movement that seeks traditional, I don’t even know what it is, what tradition it is that they’re referring to, but a traditional view of family and gender roles.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And then we have these periods of cultural backlash to that. I think we now, we’re in a moment where those two opposing forces. Are at a fever [00:33:00] pitch, and it makes a lot of sense to me that this is deeply, deeply in our cultural paradigm from the foundation of this country.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There, there’s definitely a lot of interesting religious undercurrents, and we don’t have to go too deep in it, but like the Protestant work ethic idea, the idea of like predestination your, your kind of fate to heaven or hell was kinda like preordained before you were born, which is huge in, in certain threads of, um, Protestantism.
Joe Moore: And, and you’re right. Like that idea that this was too conservative for England and like, that’s such an interesting thing to consider, um, and, and really powerful and um, yeah. So I think people should sit with that eventually.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Well, I think I have a, I have a comment that I think could be a, a little bit of a, um, helpful way of pulling some of this together.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I think when we think about this idea of Puritan Puritanism, it’s very much, um, an [00:34:00] anti pleasure. Um, there’s an assumption that somehow pleasure is going to lead to sin. The pleasure is associated with laziness. There’s that Protestant work ethic thing that we’re talking about. And the conversation that I’d like to change around that is I also have a reaction to some of the, um, progressive rhetoric that’s around rest and, um, kind of disengaging with capitalism.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I agree. Like disengage with capitalism as much as. Can, but this is the system that we live under and it is really important to find rest in our bodies. Like working ourselves to death is not a good thing, and sometimes we actually, what our bodies do need is rest. But I think what gets kind of lost in both discussions, on the discussion on both sides, on one side it is saying that [00:35:00] pleasure is evil and leads to sin and will somehow lead to some sort of like moral failing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And the other says that, uh, actually your life can be, you could just like bypass all of this capitalism stuff. And what you should focus on is just like rest and empowering yourself around rest. And of course, I’m sort of reducing complex ideas, but I’d like to promote something that’s really in the middle ground, which is that, um, it is very important to pursue meaning and pleasure and meaning for me are deeply linked.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So I think in your life you do have to find something that is productive. And it doesn’t necessarily have to mean productive under capitalism, as in it’s associated with a high paying job. But I think you need to find your thing that helps you to actually contribute something to this world. ’cause we have to ask ourselves like, what are we here for?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: We’re here for more than watching Netflix, and we’re here for [00:36:00] more than giving up our entire lives to work for a company in an unfulfilling way. So I think that there’s something that’s deeply pleasurable about connecting to a kind of livelihood, to a kind of community involvement that actually requires that we get off our ass and do something.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I mean, rest when you need to. Work hard when you need to. But a fulfilling life. A pleasurable life is one where. More often than not, we’re doing something that we find emotionally and spiritually meaningful and connected deeply to our ethics and morals that contributes to making this world better in some way for other people.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I, I think, again, I’ll just connect that to a lot of what we hear in the contemporary rhetoric around trauma healing. Um, you know, healing from trauma can be very exhausting and you might feel like you really need to rest, but in fact, when you’re [00:37:00] spiritually depleted, all the rest and sleep in the world isn’t gonna do it for you because what you actually need is to find the energy to connect to meaning in your life and connect to other people.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And it does require some motivation and energy and hopefully, you know, in a, I think in a, I don’t know that this is entirely utopian, but a utopian idea, but, um. We have other people to stand there with us who love us and, and can help us, help support us as we’re trying to connect to that quality of, of meaning in our lives.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Right. Like there are moments when we really do need to put our energy out there to help other people. And right now it seems pretty clear that that’s the case. And one, one topic that you and I have been chatting about is this kind of, um, consistent encroachment, um, against queer rights and also this one particular topic of conversion therapy, [00:38:00] which is like really clearly shown in the data to be very harmful.
Joe Moore: But yeah. People are probably gonna be bringing it back and people already are bringing it back quietly into clinical frames. Right. So can you, can you give us a little bit of an understanding of this conversation where the important points you might wanna cover?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah, absolutely. So I started this interview by talking about how largely the reception to the book has just been wonderful and people have been super into it.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I’ve been so grateful for that. Um, but there are sections of the book where I talk about this legacy of psychedelic assisted conversion therapy mostly in the fifties and sixties or where the documented cases are. Although, uh, we are learning that this is, um, has continued to happen. Um, more survivors are being identified and underground guides who I’ve interviewed in the course of writing this book, most certainly still get requests for conversion therapy.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So, um, what has seemed to be really difficult to people is [00:39:00] that I do name. Several beloved figures in the history of psychedelic medicine who practiced conversion therapy. And many people have a really hard time with accepting that that figures that contributed a lot and are quite beloved might have also had ideas that were, um, accepted at the time that we now realize are really harmful.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Mm-hmm. So, um. I think it’s really important at this juncture to define what conversion therapy is and is not. Yeah. Because that can really help people to understand some of the pushback around, uh, these discussions of historical figures of what we can do going forward. So there’s a perception that conversion therapy is a coercive treatment inflicted by up upon queer minors or trans minors, um, mostly by religious clergy or other kind of fundamentalist counselors that seeks [00:40:00] to reorient them to cis genderedness or heterosexuality.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: That’s not an accurate definition of conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is any therapy, whether it is voluntary or not, that aims at changing the gender identity or sexuality of the person. Or upholds an idea that heterosexuality is a healthier, more natural or desired outcome. So if we look at a lot of these historical cases, uh, I think we really can see that the figures who engaged in this behavior were doing voluntary treatments with consenting adults who came to treatment for distress related to their sexual identities for depression, for anxiety.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And yet these treatments existed within a cultural moment that I think we still exist in, that suggests that it would be easier [00:41:00] to be, uh, heterosexual or cisgender. And that instead of, um, receiving affirming treatments that can uplift the sexuality of someone, the treatment of the depression. Amounted to conversion therapy to suggesting that, um, treating the distress, in other words, can actually, and has actually caused a lot of harm.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So why is this important now? Right. I think there is this moment of some back and forth within the community naming certain people, and, you know, looking at the historical information is important. So we can look at what was in the historical record and develop a response to it. But why is that especially relevant in this moment?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Mm-hmm. Well, there’s a, a couple of different reasons. So the first, very relevant in 2026, the Supreme Court will decide a case. Called, um, child Versus Salazar. And this is a counselor in the state [00:42:00] of Colorado who is seeking to challenge the ban on conversion therapy to minors by, uh, clergy and counselors and religious counselors.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Now, if this person succeeds in the Supreme Court, this could effectively void bans in 24 states and the District of Columbia paving a way for conversion therapy practices to once again be legal. So we’ve got a, um, attempt that is gonna be heard by the Supreme Court that could once again really create vulnerability for some of our most vulnerable people who are queer and trans youth.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: The way that I see that this is particularly, um. Important to develop consensus within the psychedelic community and guidelines that ban the use of conversion therapy with psychedelics as consensus within our clinical community is a few reasons. One, psychedelics [00:43:00] are no longer something that is just centered in liberal ideologies.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: There is a huge interest in the right wing at, um, supporting psychedelic assisted therapies. And my concern is that one of the reasons that this is, um, looked at as, uh, something that is so, um, interesting to them is not just to support veterans, but because conversion therapy could make a big comeback.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Now we can look at medicines like ketamine that are integrated into clinical private practice right now without a lot of oversight. And for as much critique as I have about psychedelic clinical trials, for a lot of reasons, the one thing that they do have is at least moderate oversight. So we know conversion therapy practices are not happening in clinical trial contexts, but there is nothing to say that as these medicines become more widely available, that they couldn’t be used in private practice settings.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And that feels really important to me. [00:44:00] And the other piece that I wanna mention is just the suggestibility factor of psychedelics. One thing that the clinical, um, clinical literature tells us is that psychedelics make people more suggestible. And when we look at conventional conversion therapy, nons psychedelic conversion therapy, 80% of the people who have received this treatment as a minor experienced lasting harm in the form of depression, anxiety, increased suicidality.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: We know it has no efficacy or medical utility, and we know that it harms people. And my concern is as we integrate psychedelics into that, or if psychedelics were to be integrated into that, uh, the harm will be greatly compounded. So I think we’re in a cultural moment where we really have to, um, acknowledge that past harms occurred, look critically and compassionately at the people who, uh, practiced conversion therapy, hold them as complex [00:45:00] figures in a historical moment.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But it is so much more important to me that we go beyond this heroes and villains, or I should say more like, um, perpetrators and survivors paradigm. And think about like, why is this so important now that we understand our history? Really, I believe it’s so that we can build consensus and ethical guidelines now so we can look at what happened in the past.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And not to say this person was evil, but to say somebody who, um, is quite beloved and wise could have actually done something harmful with very good intentions. How do we prevent that from happening now? So yeah, it’s a very big issue and, um, I think we, we need to just recognize like we’re in a moment that still so deeply pathologizes queer and trans identities even very well, and tensioned therapists may not realize the harm they’re causing, um, because we still don’t have effective models that are [00:46:00] being widely used for what is really queer affirmative therapy.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, and one really uplifting part that I’d like to mention is there is a consensus statement that’s been signed by many, many different professionals in the field. Um, that’s in the process of being published right now. That does outline, um, a call for the ban of conversion therapy within psychedelic assisted therapy.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Uh, I think that it’ll be published. I think there’s gonna be a very good response. And hopefully what we’ll be doing is really developing some ethical guidelines that are based on, um, what we’ve learned from the past, uh, so that this can’t happen again.
Joe Moore: Yeah, I think we really need to stay on top of this because, you know, I, if I’m reading the political climate, like it seems as though this person, this case will succeed.
Joe Moore: And, um, we really need to like, put up defenses and media and interpersonally to help defend against that because we really don’t want to be harming people. It’s kind of one of the things in the clinical frame [00:47:00] that we don’t wanna be doing is harm. Do you know harm is kind of fundamental, right? So, um, yeah, I guess, um.
Joe Moore: There is this like challenging metaphysics, right? Of like, oh, if they’re gay, then they go to hell. So like, you know, what’s more compassionate? But that’s not really what we should be doing here. Like, that’s not a settled question. The afterlife and ethics morality, that like informed that what’s settled is clinical outcomes and like the science behind that and you know, what is the most compassionate thing to give people really good, healthy, comfortable lives in, in the way that we can, through our current tools.
Joe Moore: Harming is a thing we shouldn’t do. I think, you know, could be wrong, but I, I think we shouldn’t be harming people.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I, I think, uh, it’s foundation, what we need to be doing is helping people to self-actualize and then they can make choices in their life. You can choose how you, on a personal level, wanna reconcile your own religious beliefs with the sexuality that is inherent to [00:48:00] you.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: But I think fundamentally as a profession, we need to be coming from a place that we see all sexualities and gender expressions as valid, healthy, and normal. And that needs to be the cornerstone of how we’re working with all people. Whether they’re, whether they’re voluntarily asking for their sexual orientation to change or whether they, um, you know, whether they’re part of a religious community that believes otherwise.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I think it’s our professional obligation to uphold the dignity and worth of all people and identities.
Joe Moore: Yeah, and I think, um, just to make this more kind of clear and obvious for folks, like if somebody is trying to sweep a huge portion of themselves under the rug, that is only gonna come back worse in the future.
Joe Moore: And facing who you are squarely is. Part of that. And therapy can support that in helpful ways, right? And, um, trying to use therapeutic tools and [00:49:00] psychology to bury it is not gonna have a good result.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: You know, there may be an interesting segue here that I do talk in the book, which is like, how do we actually develop a set of sexual ethics and values that work for us because absolutely.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Mm-hmm. You sweeping your sexuality under the rug isn’t gonna work. But I think this is a good jumping off point where we can take this conversation, uh, and expand it to all people of any sexuality and gender identity. Um, it’s really, really important to talk about the potential harms to queer people, but we are also in a deeply sex negative society, generally speaking.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So I don’t think that there’s anybody walking around that doesn’t have a little bit of sexual trauma. And what I mean by sexual trauma here is maybe not capital T trauma, which we obviously understand is sexual trauma, sexual abuse and assault, but. The product of living in a sex negative society makes it actually really hard to develop a workable set of ethics and [00:50:00] values, um, that are meaningful to you.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book is this idea of psychedelic sexuality. And what I mean by that is dismantling these inner narratives around our sexuality, um, that reject parts of us, uh, that integrate harmful ideas that come from society that can have to do with what kind of body is the right body to be in, um, what is the right way to experience and express our gender?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: What is it okay to like or not like sexually? And in my view as a psychotherapist, if you are not causing harm and are doing anything coercive, what you like sexually is better embraced. Right. To develop a sane relationship to our sexual desires is a gift. Um, people of course can have out of control sexual behaviors, and there’s lots of clinical support that people can receive around that.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And some interesting psychedelic work about how, um, [00:51:00] psychedelics could benefit people who, who do engage in out of control sexual behaviors. But I’m talking more about the way people who don’t consider themselves sexually traumatized at all, are carrying around deep narratives of shame around their sexuality.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I think developing, um. A kind of model of psychedelic, clinical flourishing could be looking at the ways that psychedelics can help us to integrate. Well, I mean, look, we can look at what the research actually tells us that these medicines do. And one thing that psychedelics reliably do is make us more open.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And the reason I think openness is such an important character trait when we’re thinking about developing a healthy set of sexual boundaries, ethics, and a healthy erotic self is because it does allow us to be, begin, begin to think creatively about all of the ways, um, that culture has given us deeply misogynistic or homophobic or transphobic or [00:52:00] fat phobic or ableist views that we then apply in the sexual arena and apply to ourselves.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Right? So openness actually allows us to change a lot of the sexual and societal narratives that we have around sex. And the other thing that psychedelic research tells us happens reliably that I think could really benefit fit us in the sexual arena is empathy. Experiencing deep empathy for other people allows us to tolerate sexual difference.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I think psychedelics are, um, incredibly important at developing more empathy for our partners, more empathy in our human relationships to how we experience the sexuality of other people, and being able to enact our own sexual boundaries. The last piece of this that I’m really, really interested in too is spirituality because, and this links, I think right back to the conversation we were having about queerness.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And earlier than that, the conversation we were having about religious and puritanism, [00:53:00] um, so many people have been sexually harmed by the teachings of organized religions. The gap between sexuality and spirituality can just seem insurmountable for people that I believe, and in my direct experience, psychedelics can connect us to an experience of the divine that is embodied.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: It tells us that our body is actually sacred and more than us knowing that through an intellectual frame, we can feel it by the ecstatic states that psychedelics can offer us in our bodies. And I think that actually this phenomena allows us to connect. Spirituality to our sexuality in ways that so many of us have experienced as damaged by the teachings of organized religion.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So in my incredibly optimistic mind, one outcome I would really love to see is this kind of emerging, um, [00:54:00] spiritual, emerging sense of spiritual practice and how it connects to sexuality. And so to tie this whole thing together, I started by talking about sexual ethics and values. When we experience ourself as divine, when we experience our partners and our partners bodies as divine, as divine, um, treating them with the utmost respect and ethics is natural.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: It’s unthinkable to enact sexual harm on ourself or other people. If we truly have an embodied sense of our sexuality and our bodies as divine vessels. So, I mean, this sounds kind of broad and philosophical, but I think its applications are actually very practical and it can start with how we, how we receive and give pleasure and love in our own relationships right in this moment.
Joe Moore: Mm. That was all quite brilliant, Deedee. Thank [00:55:00] you. I think taking a moment to, to kind of introspect if we’ve had these experiences is a good idea. Like, oh, your body has a sacred thing and other people has a sacred thing. And um, yeah, that intersection also being quite sacred and yeah, how do we want to do these things And yeah, I think there’s a lot people really are gonna take from this recording and your book.
Joe Moore: Um, was there, was there anything in your book that we didn’t really touch yet as like a main category, um, that might kind of hook some people into. Picking up your book, which is what I want people to do.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Mm, thank you. Um, I think the one piece that we didn’t touch on fully, um, I can share in brief. There are kind of two aspects of the book that I think are one that is very interesting to general readers and another that might be interesting to people who have been sort of connected to the psychedelic [00:56:00] community in some way.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: There’s a chapter on sexual trauma, and I began to hint at this, but I take a really expansive lens as to what I mean when I say trauma. So I’m really thinking, um, you know, we can acknowledge traumas as being the big T traumas that we all recognize being sexually assaulted, abused, and I certainly am, don’t treat that lightly.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So, PTSD and how psychedelics can be supportive of healing people with acute trauma. But I’m really looking at, um, the post acute effects of psychedelics and how they can help us to dismantle these. Inner smaller traumas that have to do with absorbing a sex negative culture. So what I lay out in the book is some of these psychedelic phases of trauma healing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I won’t get into all the details of that, but I do break down in a way for readers that I think is very practical and something that they can integrate with a therapist, but also can think of a lot about on their own, about, um, these [00:57:00] different components of how we can heal and dismantle, um, traumas within us using psychedelics, whether it’s self-guided or in a clinical setting or in a, in a ceremonial setting.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And I do offer some somatic practices and things that are quite practical for people, um, that I think could be useful to people. Um, because again, I think we’re all a little sexually traumatized. We all have something to heal. Um, I’ll just tell you as a super quick aside, uh, at my book release party in Denver after the Psychedelic Science Conference, um.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: A, a person who was on site who was helping us to sell the books at the party came over and tapped me on the shoulder and said, oh, there’s this guy over there that says he doesn’t have anything to heal in his sexuality. Can you, can you go over and convince him about why he should buy this book? And I was like, I, no, no, I’m not gonna do that.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Because fundamentally, I believe that in this very deep. [00:58:00] Paradox that we all have something to heal in our sexuality. And simultaneously you are not broken. Recognizing your non brokenness is the healing. And because I think most of us carry some idea, some edge, that we are a little broken, that is where the need for healing comes in.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: It’s not actually that we need fixing, it’s that we need to recognize our inherent sacredness and power and dignity and worth in our sexuality. So that is section one. Um, section two that I feel really proud of that I think, um, could be really useful for people who have difficulty like myself reconciling some of the sexual harm that we’ve witnessed in the psychedelic community.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, you know, there is unfortunately this misperception that psychedelics make us more evolved. Wiser, kinder necessarily. For some people, psychedelics seem to make them very much more [00:59:00] narcissistic and can be used as tools of harm. So there’s a whole chapter in the book where I talk about, um, covered memories of sexual abuse in psychedelic states, which is a very, um, difficult topic.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And one of my clinical specializations. And I also to the best of my ability, tried to look at power dynamics and all of the unseen ways in psychedelic relationships, either between guides and clients or in psychedelic communities or in ceremonial contexts. All of these unseen vectors that can influence our safety and, um, unfortunately in some cases lead to the perpetration of sexual harm.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So not only how we can prevent that, but at least my best attempt at thinking how as a community we can answer to that and understand more about people who perpetrate harm. Um. I think that there are some really wonderful people doing work in this arena. Um, and I’ve been painstaking and tried to take a really nuanced approach [01:00:00] to this topic, um, because I think, uh, a lot of what I’ve seen in the psychedelic community unfortunately lacks a little bit of the basis of compassion and nuance.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So I put a lot of effort with really trying to look at these really difficult issues around sexual harm, um, from the perspective of both discernment, but also heart centeredness.
Joe Moore: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel it. And I think like,
Joe Moore: uh, I don’t want to go hard on therapists right now, but often there’s this like, disconnect, right between like, I’m, I’m this professional. And this is what I do, as opposed to like, I’m a feeling human that wants to like be with other people and help other people in this way. And I, I think like even in, I’m sure you’ve seen this, but in some of our trainings we have doctors say, I feel like I’m a human again.
Joe Moore: Like I’m this person kind of positioning myself as clinical expert. [01:01:00] Um, like I actually can’t relate with people in a new way that I haven’t been able to since med school, which is like more trauma, right?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Oh, medical training, um, is partly a masterclass and dissociation. Ooh. It really is. And I mean, to survive as an agent of the healthcare system we have and deliver care under, you know, under these circumstances and sometimes very acute situations with encountering a lot of suffering.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: You have to turn yourself partially off. You know, I, I know that we’re, this is maybe more than we want to fully unpack at this late hour in the, in the podcast, but, you know, I will say, um, people who work to treat trauma, uh, experience a lot of vicarious trauma and a lot of, um, energy in their own bodies that we need support [01:02:00] around medical doctors, uh, are working under circumstances that can be really dehumanizing.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And hence our encounters with the healthcare system can be dehumanizing. But when I think about sort of psychedelics and how harm is perpetrated at its core, um, what’s almost always there is an assumption on the part of the practitioner that they know what is needed to heal you. And that can be a very dangerous belief.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: And, but we go to doctors and shamans and Eros asking exactly for that. You have to give me what I need to heal me. So I really tried to outline how that there are all of these contradictions in our attraction to power and what we want from providers and how this is a, a very slippery area where harm can occur because it might be the very thing that we’re asking for, which is for [01:03:00] someone else to heal us that leads to boundary violations that can lead to things that feel like they were harmful later.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Um, it’s incredibly complex to unpack some of these issues.
Joe Moore: Yeah, and I hope we get to do more like this dei this um, there’s so much more depth to plum here and I think I. Pleasure is as a topic. Being introduced into the psychedelic ecosystem is kind of like a gateway into a lot of other conversations that have been really difficult to have, I think. And I think you’re, are you, are you experiencing something like that?
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah. Yes. I mean, I think even just, um, people turning onto the idea that, um, pleasure extends beyond sexuality, right? Like you think about sensuality, eroticism pleasure as holistic in our lives for a lot of people as a really revolutionary idea.
Joe Moore: [01:04:00] So, all right, well, what, uh, where can people find the book?
Joe Moore: And then I have a few other questions.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Yeah, absolutely. I set up a really lovely website that makes it very easy for people because it’s just embrace pleasure.com. There’s buy links for many different. Sources where you could buy the book depending on how you like to shop. Uh, it also tell you a little bit more about me.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I will be updating it a bit more in terms of, uh, public events and classes that I’m doing. Um, you can also sign my mailing list. I don’t hit you up all the time, but I do occasionally send things out when there’s really notable stuff people might be interested in. Uh, I have a couple of events coming up that folks may be interested in.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I’m teaching a three hour workshop based on the book that will be, um, not just didactic, but also interactive for the Una Institute on, um, October the third and later in October, I’ll be teaching another class for the Open Foundation that will be. Uh, [01:05:00] on the same idea of pleasure and sexual flourishing with psychedelics, but it’ll be a little bit more, um, geared towards clinicians.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: So that will take a little bit more of the clinical frame. And then I’ve got like a vast amount of teaching stuff that’s outside the psychedelic community as well. But those are, um, two, uh, examples of institutions within our psychedelic community that, um, will be offering things based on the book.
Joe Moore: Yeah, brilliant.
Joe Moore: And I’m glad, I’m glad you, uh, mentioned that. ’cause that’s what I was gonna ask about events and in person opportunities. And I, I, I’ve heard you’ve become quite the party thrower with the book launch as well.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: I mentioned this to you already, but I’ll share it. When I was in the throes of writing this book, and it’s a long book, it’s like 350 pages with, um, like many, many citations.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: It’s, it’s a heavily. It’s not an academic book, but I really wanted to make sure I was buttressing my arguments with academic [01:06:00] sources and that I wasn’t just like pulling this out of the air. So it was a lot of work and when I would just be in the thick of things, I would, I would just look up and think, just imagine the book release party.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Imagine your book release party. And then in July I was actually driving to the book release party and I thought like, this is the thing. I did all of this for this moment. I’m getting to go to the book release party. So what a wonderful opportunity to look at pleasure as a motivator to create something of meaning, right?
Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. It can be used skillfully. Absolutely. Um. Yeah, I think, um, there’s a lot of lessons there. Can’t wait to throw my next party. We’ll see. Um, yeah. Cool. Well, Deedee, thank you so much for making it. I really appreciate your time and your commitment to these issues and I really hope we can just continue to amplify the message.
Joe Moore: It’s so important. And thank you so much.
Dee Dee Goldpaugh: Thank you so much, Joe. [01:07:00] This was awesome. I’ll come back anytime.
Joe Moore: Can’t, can’t wait. It’s gonna be fun.
The Psychedelics & Pain Symposium 2025 is the only conference highlighting past, current, and ongoing investigations into how psychedelics can treat chronic pain and related physical conditions, such as neurodegenerative, autoimmune, and infection-acquired chronic illness.
Founded in 2022, each year the Symposium highlights top research from around the world, this year including findings and patient stories about phantom-limb pain, fibromyalgia, Complex Regional Pain Syndrome, Long-COVID, cluster headache, spinal cord injury, neuropathic pain, cancer-induced bone pain, and other physical conditions. Psychedelics have shown unique promise and enduring relief for many conditions where standard-of-care medications are often ineffective. Researchers frequently share early study results, giving our audience advanced insight into the efficacy and mechanisms of action involved in providing patients with profound relief.
As evidence builds, patient communities are sharing their real-world results & protocols for self-treating debilitating conditions, while building best practices for ensuring safe and effective delivery. The Symposium includes multiple in-person case studies describing their personal experiences in using psychedelic medicines, their previous history of other interventions, and how psychedelics have made striking improvements in their quality of life.
A full recording of the event will be available to all paid attendees and to those who couldn’t attend during the event time.
By Kevin Lenaburg and Court Wing
Psychedelics can be powerful treatments for chronic pain and other physical or neurological conditions. There is increasing awareness of these expanded uses for psychedelics, and this significantly broadens the range of people who are interested in and will benefit from access to psychedelics. Multiple universities and companies are conducting psychedelic trials for various conditions that produce primary or secondary chronic pain, including fibromyalgia, phantom-limb pain, pain from spinal cord injury, Lupus, peripheral neuropathy, Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS), neuropathic pain, Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), Lyme disease, Long-COVID, Parkinson’s, and others.
Mounting evidence shows that psychedelics can influence the biological, psychological, and social factors that may contribute to complex chronic pain. With so many diverse conditions showing positive response to psychedelics, there likely are multiple underlying transdiagnostic mechanisms of action at play. These are not single-factor drugs. Here are several of the key ways that have been proposed for how psychedelics reduce pain:
Structural neuroplasticity: both patients with depression and those with some kinds of chronic pain show significant decreases in volume in brain structures responsible for mood and pain management. Psychedelics have been shown to generate regrowth in the cortex and likely the peripheral nervous system, allowing for greater capacity for relief.
Non-opioid pain inhibition via the 5HT2A receptor: the target of classic psychedelic psychoactivity. This is the only known serotonin receptor that creates persisting descending inhibition past nerve damage, strongly suggesting a direct impact on pain signals.
Anti-inflammatory: some psychedelic compounds have up to 800 times the anti-inflammatory efficacy of corticosteroids. Psychedelics may operate as “homeostatic autoregulators,” bringing the body’s functions back to their healthy default state.
Cortical reorganization: chronic pain is often a maladaptive output of the brain, creating a constant alarm signal with pain occurring absent an injury or long past injury healing. Psychedelics may reorganize these entrenched pathways that have become sensitized to all incoming nerve signals.
Critical period reopening: psychedelics may cause significant “metaplastic” windows following the acute dosing phase, allowing the nervous system to achieve a period of high receptivity and associative learning.
Psychosocial reframing: chronic pain often becomes more than a physical condition — it can shape a person’s identity. Pain may create a psychological and physical vicious cycle where pain worsens mood, and low mood heightens pain sensitivity. Psychedelics may help break this cycle by reconnecting people with a deeper sense of self, one not defined by pain. This shift in perspective can support new coping strategies, greater resilience, and a reduced likelihood that stress or emotion will trigger pain flares.
Other potential mechanisms: while there is a growing body of evidence to suggest how psychedelics affect those living with chronic pain, little is known about how psychedelics work in the treatment of cluster headache and other headache diseases, despite mounting proof of efficacy. There is more research on psilocybin and cluster headache than on other pain conditions; however, the way psilocybin treats cluster headache is believed to be quite different from other chronic pain conditions.
Here are some highlights of recent coverage in this area and ways to support this trend or learn more.
This year’s conference had multiple panels discussing how psychedelics can be effective treatments for pain, physical, and neurological conditions. There was a packed room for the Psychedelic & Pain Association’s session entitled “Expanding the Lens: Mechanisms, Models & Modes – Transdiagnostic Potential of Psychedelic Medicines.” This talk highlighted how psychedelic substances work across the body-mind, allowing them to have impact in a broader condition set. Watch HERE. There were also multiple community meetups where people shared their personal stories of using psychedelics for back pain, migraine and cluster headache, and other types of chronic pain.
This year’s gathering featured a session from the Psychedelics & Pain Association on psilocybin for Fibromyalgia, Phantom-limb Pain & Post-treatment Lyme Disease.
Watch HERE.
The Psychedelics & Pain Association submission for 2026 builds on last year’s talk, sharing research on psilocybin for Parkinson’s and low back pain, as well as DMT for cluster headache. SXSW uses community based voting to get talks onto the stage. To support sessions that cover the expanded use of psychedelics in physical medicine, click on the session links, then click the heart icon. Creating a SXSW account takes less than a minute. (Voting closes on August 24, 2025.)
From Practice to Proof: Psychedelics for Physical Conditions
Rewiring the Brain: Psilocybin and Neurological Healing
Ibogaine: A Hail Mary for Pro Athletes with Head Trauma
The Science and Stories of Women’s Psychedelic Use
Designing for Ibogaine: Healing, Risk, & Radical Possibility
A deep dive into this topic happens annually with the REMAP Therapeutics Psychedelics & Pain Symposium, co-hosted with the Psychedelics & Pain Association. Held on September 27 & 28, 2025, this online conference features presentations from researchers, clinicians, patients, and advocates leading the field of psychedelics for pain and physical conditions. Registration is offered on a sliding scale and all sessions will be recorded and available afterwards on the Psychedelics Today platform for registrants.
People living with pain are increasingly using and reporting remarkable effects with psychedelics. There is an incredible opportunity to reduce physical suffering and improve health. Growing research and attention to these expanded uses of psychedelics broaden the community invested in the positive progress of the psychedelic field.
More people than ever are taking GLP-1 receptor agonists—drugs like Ozempic (semaglutide), Wegovy, and Mounjaro. These medications, originally developed for type 2 diabetes, are now widely prescribed for weight loss. They work by mimicking the body’s natural GLP-1 hormone, which regulates blood sugar, slows stomach emptying, suppresses appetite, and alters gut motility.
This creates a digestive bottleneck. Food stays in the stomach longer. Movement through the intestines slows. Absorption becomes less predictable.
If you’re taking psilocybin mushrooms while on GLP-1 meds, this matters.
Psilocybin is a prodrug. It isn’t active in the body until converted into psilocin (4-HO-DMT). Psilocin is the compound that actually interacts with serotonin receptors. This conversion happens primarily in the gut and liver after oral ingestion. For most people, peak effects from mushrooms come 45 to 90 minutes after dosing.
GLP-1 agonists can slow down the process.
Some reports suggest that the interaction between GLP-1 drugs and psilocybin mushrooms can lead to:
This is an important topic for several reasons, including control, safety, and proper expectation-setting. People are not getting the dose-response they expected and sometimes need to redose, or think they may be a non-responder.
In private Signal groups this week, a sharp observation emerged: what if you bypass the gut altogether?
One way to do that is through sublingual (under the tongue) or buccal (cheek pouch) administration of psilocin—the compound that psilocybin becomes after conversion. Psilocin is already active and can cross mucosal membranes into the bloodstream quickly, without requiring interaction with the stomach or intestines.
This method of delivery isn’t new. LSD, DMT, and ketamine lozenges can all be taken this way. It offers:
In the context of GLP-1 users, this could restore reliable access to psychedelic states that mushrooms alone might not deliver.t
To understand the benefit here, consider the basics of how psilocybin works in the body:
This metabolic detour—via the mouth, rather than the gut—could make a significant difference.
There are tradeoffs. Psilocin is more chemically unstable than psilocybin and more prone to oxidation. It requires careful formulation, often in a stabilized liquid or film. It’s also more tightly scheduled in many jurisdictions.
But these challenges aren’t insurmountable.
Pharmaceutical startups, underground chemists, and harm reduction collectives are already exploring stable psilocin preparations, including nasal sprays, tinctures, injections, and lozenges. The sublingual route may become increasingly relevant as more people navigate the intersection of psychedelics and modern medicine.
Psychedelic therapy is maturing, but our assumptions about preparation and dosing still lag behind. As we move toward increases in regulated access and inclusive models of care, we need to continue deepening our understanding of how common medications—SSRIs, benzos, and now GLP-1 drugs—affect psychedelic experiences.
We also need to keep space for community insight. This workaround—raised quietly by anonymous voices in encrypted chat groups—is a good example.
No need for a white paper.
The logic is clear.
The implications are important.
If you’re working with clients who are using GLP-1 agonists and planning to take mushrooms, be cautious. Test doses may underperform. Delayed peaks can confuse expectations and schedules. Stronger-than-expected effects can hit suddenly hours later.
This is an area that is ripe for further study.
In the meantime, sublingual psilocin offers a compelling alternative, rooted in pharmacology, supported by anecdote, and increasingly accessible.
We’re in new territory. Let’s learn together.
In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Alan Davis, Associate Professor at Ohio State University, to explore the evolving landscape of Ibogaine research and its therapeutic potential.
Alan offers a deep dive into the Iboga Patient Survey, a groundbreaking initiative collecting real-world data on the safety and efficacy of Ibogaine—particularly for those struggling with substance use disorders and mental health challenges. The conversation sheds light on the need for rigorous, community-informed research that could pave the way toward FDA approval and increased access for patients, including veterans dealing with trauma.
They also discuss the complexities of clinical trials, the tension between state and federal regulations, and the growing influence of corporate interests in psychedelic research. Alan emphasizes the importance of ethical transparency, community collaboration, and maintaining scientific integrity as the field grows.
If you’re curious about the intersection of psychedelic medicine, clinical research, and patient safety, this is a must-listen episode.
In this deeply important episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore is joined by Kristen Nash, MPH, and returning guest Erica Siegel, LCSW, for a nuanced conversation about risk reduction, harm prevention, and ethical education in the psychedelic space.
Kristen shares the powerful and heartbreaking story of losing her 21-year-old son after a tragic psychedelic-related incident. Motivated by this loss and her background in public health, she founded the Coalition for Psychedelic Safety and Education and launched the Before You Trip campaign—an educational initiative piloting in Colorado aimed at helping Gen Z users assess their readiness and safety before engaging with psychedelics.
Erica contributes her extensive experience from Nest Harm Reduction and Shine Collective, emphasizing the need for peer-based support, non-abstinence frameworks, and trauma-informed approaches. She highlights common pitfalls such as untrained facilitators, predatory behavior, and the pervasive issue of gaslighting in psychedelic communities.
Together, they explore the gaps in current education efforts, the dangers of glorifying substances without context, and the moral injuries that can occur when people are harmed or dismissed by the very communities meant to support them. The conversation calls for broader public funding, lived-experience-informed leadership, and transparency around psychological and relational risks—not just physiological harm.
The episode also touches on poly-substance use, the limitations of existing drug harm scales, and the importance of setting, support, and intention. With a shared commitment to saving lives and empowering users, Kristen and Erica offer actionable insights and heartfelt reflections on making this space safer for everyone.
Listeners are encouraged to follow and support both Before You Trip and Shine Collective to help expand harm reduction education and survivor advocacy.
Joe Moore and Anne Philippi (New Health Club) are hosts of the PS25 Morning Show! This one features Cesar Marin, AnneClaire Stapleton, Dennis Walker, Jonathan Sabbagh, Tom Feegel and Philip Graf von Drechsel!
And thats a wrap for PS25!!
Joe Moore and Anne Philippi (New Health Club) are hosts of the PS25 Morning Show! This one features Dee Dee Goldpaugh, LCSW and Tommaso Barba, PhDC!
We talk about all things Sex and Psychedelics!
In this episode of Psychedelics Today, kicking of Psychedelic Science 2025 week in Denver, we sit down with Jonathan Dicksinson, Chief Executive Officer, and Trevor Millar, Chief Operations Officer of Ambio Life Sciences – one of the world’s leading ibogaine clinics – to explore the potential of ibogaine for addiction, neuroregeneration, and how ethics, honoring experience, and sustainability will be key to delivering ibogaine at scale.
Trevor shares his early work supporting marginalized populations in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, which led to the founding of Liberty Root, one of Canada’s first ibogaine clinics. Jonathan reflects on his apprenticeship in Mexican clinics, years of international advocacy with the Global Ibogaine Therapy Alliance, and drafting the first set of clinical guidelines for ibogaine detoxification. Together with paramedic and ibogaine safety protocols expert Jose Inzunza, they co-founded Ambio in Tijuana in 2021.
They discuss:
They also make a compelling case that Ambio is already modeling what the future of psychedelic care should look like – not a single drug in a sterile clinical setting, but a comprehensive, integrated protocol combining preparation, medical oversight, and deep integration. “Start with the end in mind,” Trevor urges – Ambio isn’t just part of the movement; it’s the blueprint for how ibogaine could be delivered worldwide.
Links:
Aspen Psychedelic Symposium 2024 – Hosted by Kevin Franciotti
This panel explores the healing power of Ibogaine, a powerful plant medicine used for addiction recovery and spiritual growth. Moderator Kevin Franciotti leads a thoughtful conversation with Talia Eisenberg, Tom Feegel, and Dr. Lola “Dr. O” Hoba. Together, they cover personal healing, clinical safety, and the need to protect traditional knowledge.
Talia Eisenberg shares how a single Ibogaine experience helped her break free from opioid addiction. That moment inspired her to co-found BEOND Ibogaine, a treatment center in Cancun. Tom Feegel, her husband and co-founder, explains how his own recovery journey led him to help build a safe, medical space for others to heal. Their stories show how Ibogaine can open a path to deep personal transformation.
Dr. Lola Hoba blends Western science with her Yoruba heritage. She explains that Ibogaine works across several brain systems, reducing cravings and supporting lasting recovery. Unlike other psychedelics, it also carries medical risks. For this reason, Dr. Hoba urges proper medical screening and trained facilitation. She adds that spiritual respect is just as important as science.
At BEOND, safety comes first. Patients go through detailed screening and are supported by ICU-trained doctors and nurses. Each experience is closely monitored, ensuring both physical and emotional care. This approach combines hospital-level safety with the warmth of a retreat. According to Tom, healing begins with love—not just medicine.
Iboga comes from Central Africa and grows slowly. Unfortunately, growing demand has led to poaching. To give back, BEOND partners with Blessings of the Forest, a nonprofit in Gabon that protects Indigenous access and wild plant populations. As Ibogaine use grows, the panel stresses the importance of honoring the cultures that have carried this wisdom for generations.
Ibogaine shows strong potential for treating addiction, PTSD, and depression. However, U.S. access remains limited due to medical risks and legal hurdles. Even so, hope is growing. The panel calls for responsible expansion, better aftercare, and policies that prioritize both science and justice.
Thanks to Aspen Public Radio, Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center, Healing Advocacy Fund and Aspen Psychedelic Symposium for allowing us to share this podcast.
A full agenda from the symposium can be found here.
In this riveting and deeply personal conversation, moderator Jim Harris is joined by three pioneers at the intersection of neuroscience, psychedelics, and disability: Dr. Rachel Zoeller (Doctor of Physical Therapy and spinal cord injury survivor), Dr. David McMillan (Assistant Professor of Neurological Surgery at the University of Miami), and Dr. Manesh Girn (neuroscientist and postdoctoral researcher with Robin Carhart-Harris at UCSF). Together, they explore how psychedelics may do far more than treat depression or catalyze mystical experiences—they may also support healing and regeneration in the nervous system.
The discussion opens with an acknowledgment that our cultural understanding of psychedelics has mostly focused on their psychological and spiritual effects. But as these experts reveal, the somatic potential of psychedelics is vast and understudied. They delve into promising areas like central and peripheral neuroplasticity, the anti-inflammatory effects of psychedelics, and how these mechanisms might play a role in healing from spinal cord injuries or paralysis.
Dr. Girn breaks down the science behind psilocybin’s interaction with 5-HT2A serotonin receptors, not only in the brain but also in the spinal cord. These receptors, when activated, may increase neuronal excitability and even help restore lost signaling in damaged motor pathways. He suggests that psychedelics could reopen “critical periods” for neuroplasticity—windows of opportunity for the nervous system to rewire and heal.
Rachel Zoeller shares her powerful lived experience as both a physical therapist and a spinal cord injury patient. Her story brings the science to life, particularly her observation that psychedelic experiences help her reconnect to parts of her body affected by paralysis. Psychedelics, she suggests, have allowed her to rebuild mind-body communication and foster compassion toward her own physical limitations. She also underscores the need for patients to cultivate body awareness, meditation, and breathwork as essential tools for safe and effective psychedelic use.
Dr. McMillan, who leads outreach at the Miami Project to Cure Paralysis, provides a clinical and safety-oriented perspective. While optimistic about the potential, he urges caution—especially with individuals who have high-level spinal cord injuries and are vulnerable to serious complications like autonomic dysreflexia. He stresses that before we can bring these treatments into clinical settings, we must carefully assess physiological risk, develop precise pharmacological protocols, and prioritize patient safety.
The panel also addresses cultural and spiritual interpretations of spasticity. Drawing on both shamanic and somatic perspectives, they propose that these involuntary muscle contractions could be reinterpreted not as dysfunction, but as potential portals for healing, integration, or neurological feedback. The idea that such spasms might help the brain remap muscle groups is discussed as a provocative and hopeful reframe.
The conversation wraps with a call to action: to bring together indigenous wisdom, embodied knowledge, rigorous science, and community storytelling in order to chart a new frontier in psychedelic medicine—one that does not leave the disabled community behind. As McMillan puts it, “There’s a lesson to psychedelia from paralysis.” It’s a reminder that neuropharmacology must consider not just molecules and mechanisms, but people and possibilities.
Whether you’re a clinician, researcher, patient, or curious explorer, this panel is a moving and illuminating look at how psychedelics could transform not only minds—but bodies.
Thanks to Aspen Public Radio, Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center, Healing Advocacy Fund and Aspen Psychedelic Symposium for allowing us to share this podcast.
A full agenda from the symposium can be found here.
In this episode, Kyle Buller speaks with Kayse Geheret, founder of Microdosing for Healing and instructor for Psychedelics Today’s Vital program. They explore what it means to be a modern guide in the world of psychedelics. Kayse shares how microdosing has become a key entry point for many and highlights the importance of training, community, and personal growth.
They discuss how not all psychedelic work involves facilitation. Some guides support through integration, education, or community organizing. The conversation covers what makes a great guide—qualities like groundedness, empathy, curiosity, and the ability to hold space. They also talk about the growing need for psychedelic-literate professionals in all fields, not just therapy.
Kayse and Kyle reflect on the importance of finding the right training—whether for coaching, integration, or peer support. With more people entering the space, education and connection are more important than ever.
Whether you’re curious about microdosing, thinking of becoming a guide, or simply want to better support your community, this episode offers valuable insight.
🎧 Learn more at microdosingforhealing.com
🌱 Discover Vital at vitalpsychedelictraining.com
In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Kyle Buller is joined by Dr. Hannah McLane, founder of the SoundMind Center and SoundMind Institute. They dive deep into the evolving psychedelic landscape—touching on policy developments in New Jersey, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and beyond. Dr. McLane shares her experience testifying in support of psilocybin legislation and discusses the medical frameworks being explored, particularly in contrast to Oregon and Colorado’s models.
The conversation also explores the essential qualities of effective psychedelic facilitators, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, lifelong learning, and doing personal inner work. Dr. McLane offers insights into the challenges of entrepreneurship in the psychedelic space, balancing mission-driven work with sustainability, and how neurodiversity and trauma have shaped her approach.
Toward the end, the conversation takes a playful and heartfelt turn, reflecting on parenting, the power of curiosity, and the need for more community-centered, human-first spaces for integration and healing. This is a rich, honest, and inspiring dialogue that bridges the personal and political, the clinical and ceremonial, and the visionary future of psychedelics.
https://www.hannahmclanemd.com/
soundself.com/psychedelicstoday
As society becomes more virtual and disconnected, many of us are looking for new ways to touch, feel, and connect. What is Kama Flight, and how can it be used with psychedelics?
In this episode, Joe interviews Jeremy Falk: certified instructor and training program developer for Kama Flight; and Dr. David Rabin, MD, Ph.D.: board-certified psychiatrist and neuroscientist, co-founder & chief Medical Officer at Apollo Neuroscience, and advisor to the non-profit, Kama Flight Foundation.
Kama Flight is a wellness modality for partners, inspired by the movements of Watsu therapy, Thai massage, 5Rhythms, tango, improv dance, and Acroyoga. At the heart of it is the dynamic between the two people engaged in the dance (the ‘base’ and the ‘voyager’), which touches on collaboration, leadership, receptivity, strength, surrender, and most importantly, trust. The communication and instant feedback shared between the partners mixed with the healing energy of the somatic movements results in moving stuck energy out of their bodies while also making them more comfortable with touch, agency, and consent – which could be extremely beneficial toward preparing for a psychedelic experience.
They talk about:
and more!
In addition to running retreats, Kama Flight is teaching their craft as well, and just finished their first training. They’ve launched an at-home course, and have upcoming workshops in Austin, New York City, and Miami, with the next taking place this Saturday, Jan. 18, in Mill Valley, CA. Use code KAMAFLIGHTPT for 15% off!
Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad, by Steven Kotler
Hhs.gov: U.S. Surgeon General Issues New Advisory on Link Between Alcohol and Cancer Risk
Kama Flight retreat: Jan. 30 – Feb. 2, at Casa Maya Kaan, Tulum, Mexico
Kama Flight’s other upcoming classes
Kama Flight class: Jan. 18 at The Portal, Mill Valley, CA (use code KAMAFLIGHTPT for 15% off)
*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale
What is RSO? What is THC-A? Do sativa and indica really mean what we think? How much do we really know about cannabis?
In this episode, Joe interviews Angie Roullier: longtime veteran of the cannabis industry and author of the book, Pot for the People: The Plant, the People, and the Shop Policies of Cannabis.
Diagnosed with the neurological disorder, Charcot-Marie-Tooth (CMT), Roullier tells the story of how cannabis replaced all her medications, which led to a personal journey and career centered on cannabis education. She talks about the challenges patients face in today’s rapidly evolving cannabis markets, misconceptions surrounding cannabis, the ignorance of many budtenders, and how not knowing enough can lead to an underwhelming high. She discusses how she educated people in shops and how her book was written to teach people how to ask the right questions to not only ensure a safe and effective experience, but to also give them the experience they’re looking for.
She talks about:
and more!
Mayoclinic.org: Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease
Hereditary Neuropathy Foundation
Leafly.com: What is Rick Simpson Oil? Your complete guide to RSO
Burningdaily.com: Is THCA Legal in South Carolina? Understanding the Legal Landscape
YouTube: Grandmas Smoking Weed for the First Time (likely the video Joe is talking about)
Psychedelics are going mainstream, but society’s views on addiction and recovery models are still behind. Is the recovery community ready for psychedelics?
In this episode, Joe interviews Dan Ronken: licensed professional counselor and addiction counselor with a private practice in Boulder, CO, called Inclusion Recovery, and lead trainer and facilitator for the Integrative Psychiatry Institute (IPI).
He tells his story of going from a sponsored BMX racer to three stints in rehab before the age of 14, and what he’s learned from his experiences in recovery over the years: that there is a wide range of what ‘in recovery’ actually means, that abstinence-only and 12-step models don’t work for many, that connection and community – and consistency in both – are enormous parts of what actually leads to overcoming an addiction, and more. As recovery communities cautiously begin to talk about psychedelics, he highlights the importance of nuance in understanding addiction, the need for open-mindedness toward new therapeutic approaches, and the need for diverse support networks that welcome discussions around psychedelics.
He talks about:
and more!
Nature.com: Ketamine can reduce harmful drinking by pharmacologically rewriting drinking memories
Alcoholics Anonymous: The Big Book
Lucid.news: Bill Wilson, LSD and the Secret Psychedelic History of Alcoholics Anonymous
YouTube: Bill W. (2012 documentary)
The Rose Of Paracelsus: On Secrets & Sacraments, by William Leonard Pickard
*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale
Faced with health challenges that traditional treatments often fail to remedy, veterans are increasingly turning to psychedelics for help. Their stories of trauma and healing help humanize their experiences, reduce stigma, and foster essential conversations that broaden acceptance and understanding of how psychedelics can support them.
While over 7,000 U.S. service members have died in combat since 9/11, more than 30,000 veterans and active-duty soldiers have taken their own lives during the same period. Some estimates suggest this number could be significantly higher, reaching upwards of 150,000. This staggering statistic highlights a mental health crisis, one in which veterans face PTSD, depression, chronic pain, insomnia, and other challenges at alarming rates. Many veterans feel abandoned by traditional therapies that often provide only temporary relief.
With increased advocacy and a surge in scientific support, psychedelic-assisted treatments have emerged as a promising pathway for veterans seeking more comprehensive recovery from trauma.
After leaving combat, former Army Ranger Jesse Gould struggled with severe PTSD. He left his career as an investment banker, sold his belongings, and journeyed around the world in an attempt to find a new way forward.
After an ayahuasca retreat in Peru, Gould says he – finally – found relief from his PTSD symptoms. Invigorated by his experience and the relief he found in plant medicine, Gould founded Heroic Hearts Project, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting veterans and their families in overcoming the impacts of PTSD and military trauma.
“I was at my lowest point, feeling disconnected and hopeless,” Gould told Psychedelics Today. “As my own pain began to lift, I knew I couldn’t keep this journey to myself.”
Heroic Hearts empowers veterans and their loved ones through transformative retreats and encourages them to take control of their healing. The organization fosters community and provides support for veterans as they undertake the challenging work of processing trauma and reclaiming peace, Gould says. It builds ‘psychedelic literacy’ through education on preparation, integration, and safe practices for maximizing benefits.
“When veterans have these big psychedelic experiences during a retreat, no matter what, they will have lasting changes,” Gould explains. “They gain new perspectives on how they view themselves and the world.”
Ensuring veterans have not only have access to a community, but that they’re armed with a strong foundation of psychedelic therapy, integration, and risk reduction is crucial to ensuring their relief is durable, says author and educator Matt Zemon MSc.
A new book, The Veteran’s Guide to Psychedelics, written by Zemon in collaboration with Heroic Hearts and clinically reviewed by Ken Weingardt, PhD, was recently published to help bridge this critical knowledge gap. Gould and Zemon kicked off the project after Gould noticed the lack of comprehensive publications tailored for veterans exploring psychedelics.
The clinically reviewed book was designed to equip veterans with knowledge of safe, responsible, and therapeutic psychedelic use, offering insights into a new frontier of mental health care that emphasizes key principles veterans need to understand when exploring psychedelic options responsibly.
Dr. Robert “Bob” Koffman, a retired Navy Captain and psychiatrist, emphasizes the significant gap in addressing the trauma many veterans face.
“For years, like most clinicians, I relied on conventional treatments… but despite our best efforts, the standard approaches often fell short,” he explains.
This realization led him to explore psychedelic-assisted treatments, which he views as potentially transformative for veteran mental health care.
With nearly 40 years in military medicine, including combat experience and public health expertise, Koffman has seen firsthand the limitations of traditional approaches. He believes that psychedelics – particularly those promoting neuroplasticity – can address trauma in ways conventional methods cannot. According to him, these therapies may “not just heal hidden wounds, but by mending the accompanying soul wounds, and save countless families.”
Koffman emphasizes the importance of health literacy for veterans: “It’s about knowing what questions to ask, recognizing the risks, and understanding the potential benefits.”
For him, informed preparation and responsible use are essential for veterans to move from crisis to genuine transformation and long-term wellness.
According to Zemon, openly sharing stories is a powerful force for fostering understanding and encouraging other vets to explore new avenues of healing. Many veterans who have turned to psychedelics describe their experiences as life-changing, inspiring fellow veterans to consider new possibilities for their own recovery.
Tom Satterly, Delta Force veteran and co-founder of All Secure Foundation, says psychedelics allowed him to confront trauma in ways conventional therapies could not.
“These treatments have allowed me to break through pain that no other method could touch,” Satterly said.
Beth Law, a former US Army veteran, joined MycoMeditations psilocybin retreat in Jamaica to overcome PTSD. Her experience was recorded and shared by the German public-broadcast network, ZDF News, where she described how the experience allowed her to feel like herself again.
Steve Keefer, a veteran of the 2nd Ranger Battalion, says his perspective evolved through sacred ceremonies supported by community. “I viewed life as a series of battles, but this attitude strained relationships and led to negativity. Through healing ceremonies, I’ve found fulfillment, peace, and healthier relationships. I’m more in service to others now than I ever was in uniform.”
“Veterans need a clear understanding of the risks, as well as a strong foundation in preparation, set, setting, and integration – each essential for veterans who choose this path to navigate it successfully,” Zemon said.
Zemon advocates for a proactive approach, encouraging veterans to balance both potential benefits and risks in considering psychedelic-assisted healing.
“While psychedelics offer new possibilities for healing, they must be approached with caution and preparation,” Koffman adds.
The conversation around psychedelics in veteran mental health is evolving, and at its core is an urgent need for psychedelic literacy and supportive resources. Bridging this knowledge gap with science, safety, and empathy equips veterans with the guidance they need. By understanding the critical elements of psychedelic therapy and the organizations that facilitate access, veterans can embark on a healing journey that addresses trauma holistically and cultivates renewed hope.
With so much attention being placed on the psychedelic experience itself, too many people are getting stuck in patterns of chasing the experience without making space for integration.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Lana Pribic, M.Sc: host of the Modern Psychedelics podcast, certified professional life coach, and founder of Kanna Wellness.
She talks about her early days of rave culture and MDMA, to exploring other substances, to where she is today: finding joy in the simple things in life, embracing recreational psychedelics, and continuously working on herself while understanding that psychedelic experiences are not the be-all, end-all medicine, and that taking space to integrate learned lessons is where the true potential lies. She recognizes that many of us set out to heal trauma or work on something specific, but often get caught in a “healing trap,” where a victim energy ends up holding us back – and keeps us coming back. When is the healing done? When do these experiences become a habit or escape? What are we not integrating?
She discusses:
and more!
Serving Canada (for now), Kannawellness.com just launched, and features kanna extract eight times more potent than what is on the market today. If you’re curious, use code PT10 at checkout for 10% off your order!
Modern Psychedelics on Spotify
PT308 – Dr. Ido Cohen, PsyD – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
Ipeccoaching.com: Unpacking the 7 Levels of Energy: A Path to Deeper Self-Awareness
PT271 – Jeremy Narby, Ph.D. – Anthropology, Ayahuasca, and Plant Teachers
After the Ecstasy, the Laundry: How the Heart Grows Wise on the Spiritual Path, by Jack Kornfield
You Were Never Broken, by Jeff Foster
Psychedeliceducationcenter.com
*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale
Doctors across the country are beginning to look beyond their prescription pads to explore new treatments for chronic pain management: psychedelics.
As clinical research mounts, patient stories become more frequent, and a desperate call for new solutions to help people find relief for chronic pain becomes louder, substances like psilocybin and MDMA are entering medical education as promising new treatments.
Healthcare professionals are listening and learning how psychedelics could become part of their practices, offering new hope to patients for whom traditional methods – like opioids and nerve blocks – often fall short.
Recently at the annual PAINWeek conference, more than 1,400 pain management professionals gathered to learn about advances in the field. Psychedelics took center stage: the 2024 event marked the first time psychedelic medicines had a dedicated track on the agenda.
Retired FDNY firefighter Joe McKay and advocate Court Wing shared their experiences with using psychedelics to combat their chronic pain conditions.
Presentations in the psychedelic track were delivered by patients, healthcare professionals, including Dr. Eugene Vortsman, licensed clinical social worker Erica Siegal, and attorney Deborah Linden Saly, who are each engaged in research, advocacy, or clinical practice with substances like psilocybin, MDMA, LSD, and DMT.
A growing body of evidence shows people living with conditions including chronic low back pain, migraine, cluster headaches, fibromyalgia, traumatic brain injuries, and phantom limb pain often find that existing treatments are either ineffective or come with troubling or dangerous side effects.
The presence and fervor around psychedelics at the conference is the latest example of a growing focus by the medical community on psychedelics as a new and promising treatment for a wide range of chronic pain and physical conditions.
The complexity of pain is well-matched by the multiple ways that psychedelic substances impact human physiology and perception. Key pain prevention qualities of psychedelics include their ability to interfere with the ascending cascade of pain signals and their powerful anti-inflammatory effects.
Psychedelics can also create neuroplasticity that improves and alters perceptions of pain and corresponding reflexive responses. Many people also report that psychedelics change how they think about their pain and the deeply personal relationship they have with this unwanted constant companion.
New mechanisms of action for how psychedelics improve pain are continually being discovered and proposed. Broadly, it seems to be a complex confluence of biological, psychological and social factors that are all altered by psychedelics. It is premature to state that there is one key or overarching mechanism at work. The field continues to deepen knowledge about which substances and at what doses, are right for which conditions and individual patients.
Another exciting area of exploration is how psychedelics can be combined with a wide array of adjunctive therapies like neuromodulation, physical therapy, massage, mirror box exercises, posture therapy, and more to enhance the efficacy and enduring effect on chronic pain.
For Wing, the success he initially found in psychedelics came somewhat by serendipity after participating in a landmark John Hopkins psilocybin trial for depression.
“I had been evaluated for musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction that I had acquired through a host of injuries over the years of my performance career, and in fact, had just been in the doctor’s office a few months earlier trying to determine if I had arthritis or something worse,” Wing said. “But right there in the (psilocybin) session room, I started having a neurological revision, with my muscles and nerves in my right inner thigh firing in an effort to recalibrate the sensory and motor inputs and outputs in that part of my kinetic chain.”
Personal stories combined with evidence from clinical studies suggest the positive experiences of people in pain who try psychedelic treatments are not lucky aberrations.
Despite a rise in queries, concerns about discussing illegal substances keeps many in healthcare from speaking to their patients about psychedelics for chronic pain.
“Increasing numbers of patients ask me about the potential health benefits of psychedelic agents, both for my area of particular interest – cluster headache, as well as for other headache conditions and for general mental health,” Dr. Brian E. McGeeney, a neurologist and headache specialist in Boston said.
Attorney Deborah Linden Saly cautions healthcare providers: regardless of how state-level laws may change, psychedelics mostly remain illegal Schedule I substances at the federal level. But, she adds, medical professionals can employ strategies to mitigate liability when their clients ask them about psychedelics.
Broadly, healthcare providers can and should be able to answer questions about known efficacy (as documented in the scientific literature), psychedelic-prescription drug interactions, and be able to point to quality sources of information where the patients can learn more. Healthcare providers should be wary of recommending or encouraging psychedelic use until the legal status of these substances changes, but this does not negate providing clients, especially those who have exhausted all typical treatment methods, with resources and education – and encouraging them to seek more on their own.
In the past two years, many professional medical meetings have included discussion of psychedelics to treat pain. Earlier this year, Dr. Emmanuelle Schindler spoke at the American Headache Society’s (AHS) Annual Scientific Conference about her positive and significant research on psilocybin for cluster headache and migraine.
This fall, AHS will also host a pre-course titled Psychedelics and Headache Advanced Course at their Scottsdale Symposium. Presenters for this course include the founder and executive director of Clusterbusters, Bob Wold; sociologist and author of Psychedelic Outlaws: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine, Joanna Kempner, PhD; and Dr. Emmanuelle Schindler and other physicians. By the end of 2024, Schindler will have spoken on this topic at 16 medical and research events in the past two years.
The patient advocacy group Clusterbusters recently held its 19th annual U.S. conference, and due to growing interest from healthcare providers, they introduced a Continuing Medical Education (CME) course for the first time. This addition led to a fourfold increase in the number of attending medical professionals, who came to learn from the cluster headache patient community about effective treatments, including the potential use of psychedelics.
“What a privilege it was to get a better understanding of this community and the disease they tragically share. But it’s for that shared agony that they can make their lives better, along with the lives of countless others. Not to mention all the lives they’ve saved. Now they can count my enlightenment among their triumphs,” said Dr. Stephanie Nahas, a Philadelphia-based headache specialist.
One in five Americans currently suffers with chronic pain. Pain management professionals know better than anyone else (except maybe individuals living with poorly treated pain) that the medicines and therapies currently available are insufficient to deal with the epidemic that is growing in our aging society. Psychedelics won’t soon be a first-line pain treatment or an effective solution for all the people living with pain, but patients are increasingly using and reporting remarkable effects with psychedelics. And their physicians have taken notice.
Within the coming years, pain management professionals will likely begin to be able to integrate psychedelic medicines into their clinical practices. The time to educate them is now.
Cluster headaches are considered to be the most severe pain a person can experience. With scarce research and no funding, citizen-led science has taken over, and sufferers may have discovered the answer: psychedelics.
In this episode, Joe interviews Joanna Kempner, Ph.D.: associate professor in the Department of Sociology at Rutgers University and author of the recently released, Psychedelic Outlaws: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine.
The book profiles the history and groundbreaking work of ClusterBusters, a nonprofit researching and spreading awareness about what someone named Flash discovered decades ago: that for some people, psilocybin and LSD could stop cluster headaches from coming on. Through early internet message board posts and email exchanges between Bob Wold, Rick Doblin, and others, Kempner pieced together their story. And through attending ClusterBusters meetings, she discovered that a lot of the true healing lies in the bonds formed and the hope people find when seeing something new work for a pain for which science has no answer.
She discusses:
and more!
Psychedelic Outlaws: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine, by Joanna Kempner, PhD
Not Tonight: Migraine and the Politics of Gender and Health, by Johanna Kempner
Nih.gov: Response of cluster headache to psilocybin and LSD
Allianceforheadacheadvocacy.org: Headache on the Hill
PT336 – Sisi Li, Ph.D. – Porta Sophia: Psychedelic Prior Art
ClusterBusters Inc. YouTube: Psychedelic Outlaws Book Club – Week 1
*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale
In an age where technology has made it easier than ever to reach each other, humanity faces a glaring paradox: people are more disconnected than ever before, and the need for togetherness has never been greater.
Disconnection isn’t just a social or personal issue – it’s a driving force behind the multiple, interconnected crises we’re facing today. This “polycrisis” is a term that speaks to a complex web of global challenges like climate change, social inequality, and political instability, which are deeply intertwined with the alienation we feel from each other, our environment, and even ourselves. We find ourselves caught in a vicious cycle that erodes our ability to innovate, collaborate, and maintain the relationships necessary to solve enormous problems.
But there is hope in psychedelics. As powerful tools that can heal fractures, psychedelics can restore our sense of belonging and connection with ourselves, each other, and the planet. By addressing the roots of alienation, psychedelics can offer a solution to not only individual and collective repair, but also a way to tackle the global polycrisis threatening our future.
Around the world, people are feeling a profound sense of disconnection – socially, culturally, environmentally, and from themselves. Over 60% of adults are chronically lonely, and this number continues to rise. Modern alienation has led to widespread isolation, division, and perhaps most disturbingly, a loss in the meaning in life for many people. It isn’t just harmful for individuals; it also fuels the larger polycrisis we face by undermining our ability to collaborate, innovate, and sustain a healthy relationship with our world.
Here are some of the most prevalent forms of modern alienation:
Many people feel increasingly disconnected from the social groups that used to give them a sense of belonging. While social media seems to connect us, it actually deepens these divides, creating echo chambers where different perspectives aren’t usually celebrated. This divide makes it hard – if not impossible – to create the collective will that’s required to solve global problems. The ripple effect of failing to solve one issue, like social isolation, intensifies parallel issues, like political unrest or “othering.”
As the world becomes more globalized, many people feel estranged from their cultural roots, especially if they live in environments where their culture is underrepresented or misunderstood. Losing your cultural identity can cause people to feel confused and like they don’t belong, weakening the social fabric that’s crucial to building cultural identity worth preserving. The erosion of cultural identity doesn’t just impact people, but it weakens our ability to draw on each other’s perspectives, which is crucial to navigate complex global problems.
Urbanization and modern living have distanced us from the natural world, contributing to a growing environmental crisis. Many people feel disconnected from nature, leading to a lack of appreciation for the environment and a sense of being out of place in the world. This is a particularly deadly example of alienation: when people don’t feel connected to the earth, they’re less likely to try to protect it. We’re now caught in a vicious cycle, in which environmental destruction is perpetuating social and economic instability, and obliterating quality of life for many.
On a more intimate level, many people feel disconnected from themselves, and are living lives that don’t align with their values, wants, or actual needs. We can see it all around us, in each other, and ourselves, manifesting as depression, anxiety, and a deep sense of unfulfillment. When we’re disconnected from our inner selves, we’re less likely to engage in our world, weakening our capacity for empathy, creativity, and resiliency in the face of glaring global problems that need solving now.
Psychedelics offer a powerful solution. These compounds have shown remarkable potential in healing the mind and restoring crucial lost connections: socially, culturally, environmentally, and personally. By repairing these connections, we begin to lay the groundwork for solving some of the most destructive problems plaguing our planet today.
Psychedelics can break down the barriers that fragment our communities. In communal settings, such as retreats or group ceremonies, psychedelics foster a sense of unity and shared experience.
In a 2021 Imperial College London study, researchers studied how group psychedelic experiences can create a profound sense of “communitas,” or deep togetherness, among participants. This shared experience transcends usual social structures, leading to lasting improvements in social connectedness and well-being.
Psychedelics can play a major role in mending fractured relationships: in families, between romantic partners, or even between nations. In romantic relationships, MDMA-assisted therapy has been shown to help couples reconnect and deepen their understanding of each other. On a larger scale, psychedelics could be used to overcome entrenched national dogmas, fostering mutual understanding and peace between nations. The historic Soviet-American science conference at Esalen is a prime example, when new age practices led to a vision of peace during the Cold War.
By rebuilding social connections, psychedelics can strengthen the communal ties necessary to address global challenges together.
Culturally, psychedelics are helping people all around the world reconnect with their roots and heritage.
Indigenous communities have used psychedelics like peyote and ayahuasca in ritualistic and medicinal contexts for centuries. And today, they’re being used to help ensure that Native American youth do not lose the connection to their heritage. Peyote remains a central sacrament to the Native American Church, and has been used successfully to reconnect Native Americans to their language through song and chanting (and reliable religious experiences). In addition to reconnecting many Indigenous people with their spirituality, ceremony is reconnecting them with their language, which is really important because it was lost for so many people as a result of colonization.
Reconnecting to your cultural identity doesn’t just help heal personal alienation, but also improves the diversity of perspectives and solutions needed to navigate the complexities of a globalized world facing multiple crises.
Psychedelics can foster a deep reconnection with the natural world. When people adopt a deep love of nature, it is, in theory, possible to solve colossal environmental problems.
Many who take psychedelics outdoors report a heightened awareness of their connection to the earth. It can inspire people to live more sustainably and commit to protecting the planet. By rekindling our connection to nature, psychedelics can help reverse the environmental destruction that fuels global polycrisis, promoting behaviors and policies that prioritize ecological balance, sustainability, and even regeneration.
A famed 2019 study by researchers Sam Gandy, Robin Carhart-Harris and others known as the Nature Relatedness Study. The findings suggest that psychedelic experiences can lead to significant and lasting changes in personality, particularly in terms of increased openness and nature relatedness. These changes may also be linked to shifts in political views, promoting more liberal and pro-environmental attitudes. This underscores the potential of psychedelics not only for individual growth but for broader societal impacts.
A 1966 study, Psychedelic Agents in Creative Problem-Solving, demonstrated how psychedelics helped scientists solve complex problems, leading to significant technological advancements. Imagine the potential if psychedelic-inspired innovation were applied to environmental sustainability or the development of new, greener technologies. By unlocking new ways of thinking, psychedelics can help us develop solutions that address the root causes of environmental crises, rather than just treating the symptoms.
On a personal level, psychedelics offer a powerful tool for self-reconnection, particularly in therapeutic settings. They can help individuals explore their shadow, confront unresolved trauma, and rediscover their true selves. This process of self-discovery and deep healing isn’t just transformative for the person, but has ripple effects that improve our capacity to address global challenges. When we’re more connected to ourselves, we’re more likely to engage meaningfully with the world around us.
Take the opioid crisis, for example. Psychedelics offer a promising alternative or addition to traditional pain management, and may drastically reduce chronic pain without the need for opioids. This could lead to a significant reduction in opioid use and addiction, alleviating the strain on healthcare systems and helping to reinvigorate families and communities.
We see the ripple effect of personal reconnection and doing deep inner work all over the psychedelic field; using the principles of Stan Grof, Carl Jung, and Internal Family Systems to help individuals participate in this adventure of self-discovery.
In fact, we’re offering our Vital students the chance to specialize in Somatics, Jung and Depth Psychology as part of their certification for the upcoming September cohort. We’re the first education program to offer this kind of specialization, which we think will be really crucial to helping people heal themselves and others.
The potential of psychedelics to heal and reconnect us, both personally and collectively, is immense. But we can only do it if we approach these substances with responsibility, respect, and a deep understanding of their power.
Philosopher Buckminster Fuller once said, “You do not belong to you. You belong to the universe.” Our role is to use our experiences to help others, and psychedelics provide us with the tools to do it.
Psychedelics can indeed reconnect us, inspire innovation and creativity, and help us solve complex polycrisis problems we face as a society. But most importantly, psychedelics remind us of our interconnectedness: that we are all part of a larger whole, and that our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond ourselves.
While the concept is often unfairly reduced to replacing one drug with another, many people struggling with addictions are proving that there’s a positive link between the use of psychedelics and addiction recovery. Can microdosing be a factor?
In this episode, Joe interviews Danielle Nova: founder of Psychedelic Recovery, founding team member of Decriminalize Nature Oakland, and Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society.
As a recovering addict, Nova discusses how working with psychedelics helped her find her way to recovery, and how she’s spreading that knowledge to others through her Psychedelic Recovery program, which focuses more on ‘targeted abstinence,’ instead of the total abstinence model of Psychedelics In Recovery (which works alongside AA’s 12-step program). She believes that it’s extremely important to reframe addiction as a life process or temporary state of consciousness (rather than a life sentence you can’t escape), and that beating addiction is not about constantly being afraid of a relapse, but about evolving to a state of empowerment: that you can overcome it, and that actually, a horrific addiction may have saved you and brought you to where you’re supposed to be.
She discusses:
and more!
She has co-created Microdosing Facilitator Training with Adam Bramlage of Flow State Micro: a first-of-its-kind 4-month program teaching clinicians, facilitators, and coaches about microdosing and how to safely guide others through the practice. The next cohort launches in January 2025.
Microdosingfacilitatortraining.com
Nature.com: Low doses of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) increase reward-related brain activity
PT303 – Adam Bramlage – Cannabis, Microdosing, and Our Evolutionary Connection to Psychedelics
How Long Does A Microdose Last? by Elena Schmidt
Nih.gov: Valvular Heart Disease with the Use of Fenfluramine-Phentermine
Los Angeles Psychedelic Science Symposium
A recent report estimated that four million people in the U.S. started microdosing in the last year, with many microdosing at work to improve their leadership skills. But most people start their practice alone, which leads to the question: How much do preparation and peer support change the microdosing experience?
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Tiffany Hurd: microdosing coach, speaker, business leadership advisor, and student in our current cohort of Vital.
After 15 years in the corporate healthcare industry and several years on antidepressants, she started microdosing psilocybin and saw an immediate change in her life, tapering off antidepressants within a few months. She realized that she could blend her background in business development and strategy with microdosing, helping companies (and specifically company leadership) become more vulnerable, heart-centered, and innovative. She has found that the changes in people have (not surprisingly) led to improved employee mental health, better team relationships, and more open-mindedness and authenticity, and likely, a large reason for that is not the microdosing itself, but the increased attention to preparation and integration – two huge factors often not discussed with microdosing.
She talks about:
and more!
Microdosing is one of the new specialization tracks featured in our next cohort of Vital, beginning September 16. If you want to know more, send us an email or attend one of the next Vital Q+As!
Microdosing as a Coaching Tool: Navigating the Path to Inner Truth, with Tiffany Hurd (A PT webinar)
Positivepsychology.com: The Philosophy of Ikigai: 3 Examples About Finding Purpose
Psychedelics in palliative care has become an exciting new framework for people looking to ease anxiety and embrace spirituality, but the concept is not as simple as just providing a substance.
In this episode, Joe interviews Livi Joy: Director of Health and Safety, Existential Palliative Ministry Lead Facilitator, and more at Sacred Garden Community (SGC).
As she screens applicants for SGC (and Beckley Retreats), she talks a lot about the process and the safety measures that are absolutely necessary when using psychedelics in palliative care – especially under the framework of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Does the patient have at least one strong support person? Do they need to start or increase therapy? Does their home need to be rearranged due to possible fall risks? How will certain medications muffle their experience? Are they truly physically healthy enough to be able to handle a powerful journey? And also, is the sacrament always necessary?
She discusses:
and more!
Psychedelics Weekly – AIMS vs. the DEA: An Update on the Fight to Reschedule Psilocybin
Wikipedia.org: Religious Freedom Restoration Act
Editor’s Note: To date, no empirical studies have concluded that psychedelics cure long COVID. Though case study research in this area is ongoing, this article represents one person’s experience and should not be taken as medical advice. For a more comprehensive understanding of this topic, we encourage you to listen to the full episode of our May 31, 2024 podcast, which includes a broader conversation with experts in the field.
Driven by a deep need for relief and guided by curiosity, in 2022 I turned to psychedelics in my battle against long COVID. What started as a mission to manage post-viral symptoms transformed into a meaningful exploration of psychedelic healing, culminating in unexpected relief, and a shift in my life path. This is my story of navigating the challenges of long COVID, the healthcare system, and my own journey to recovery through the use of psychedelic medicines.
While I might not be the typical image of a person experimenting with psychedelics, my situation led me there. A married 40-something suburban mother of two, working in academia and technology, I was an unlikely candidate for a psychedelic journey. Yet, desperation and long COVID pushed me in this direction.
The fear of stigma and the potential impact on my professional reputation initially made me hesitant to share my experience with substances that remain illegal. However, meeting Court Wing, a passionate advocate for the potential of psychedelics in treating chronic pain and long COVID, changed my perspective. I met Court at a Plant Parenthood integration circle for parents using plant medicines. In that session, I discussed my initial experiences with plant medicines, unaware that this would lead to my story being featured in a medical journal, and even mentioned in TIME magazine.
In early 2022, my life seemed on track. I had a great job at a Canadian university, a bustling family life, and I had just started a Ph.D. My husband, Neil, supported my career ambitions as a full-time caregiver to our children. The U.S.-Canada border reopening in early 2022 prompted me to take the kids to visit family in Connecticut.
We were fully vaccinated and took precautions to keep from contracting the virus. But the Omicron variant was still circulating, and at some point before leaving for our trip, we were exposed and became ill.
The journey back to Canada, coupled with an extended isolation and constant scrutiny from health authorities, left me exhausted, stressed, and at a low point in my mental health.
Severe COVID-19 patients often arrive at the hospital already in respiratory crises. I never needed oxygen, but COVID-19 devastated my body and brain in many ways, initially unbeknownst to me. The aftermath was debilitating: I couldn’t think or regulate my emotions, suffered from severe fatigue, confusion, headaches, and a deepening depression. The healthcare system offered little support, with constant changes in my primary care situation and delayed access to a long COVID clinic.
Determined to recover, I initially pushed myself too hard, only to relapse and sink deeper into despair. I then shifted to prioritizing self-care, including meditative walks in the forest, which helped mildly with depression and brain fog but hit a plateau in cognitive recovery.
After a few months, I was finally able to get a referral, and was accepted into the local hospital’s long COVID rehab clinic. I was so relieved that I would finally get proper care. Then the other shoe dropped – ‘getting in’ only meant that I was now on the waitlist. The estimated wait was a staggering seven months.
From then on, I entered reluctantly into a new phase of acceptance. I made self-care my only priority.
Despite the lack of health care, I took my care and rehabilitation into my own hands. I joined long COVID online communities and read the recent research.
My research on emerging treatments led me to anecdotes of psychedelics aiding COVID-related olfactory loss and brain fog. The growing evidence of psychedelics treating depression, anxiety, addictions, and trauma piqued my interest further. Though no clinical trials were testing psychedelics for long COVID, the safety and efficacy in related conditions motivated me to experiment on myself.
My journey led me to a friend and trained guide, Kate, who understood my symptoms due to her own severe traumatic brain injury. Kate guided me through a psilocybin and MDMA-assisted ceremony that became a transformational experience, comparable to the births of my children in its impact. Almost overnight, my anxiety and depression vanished and my cognitive clarity returned. My headaches eased dramatically. The veil of the long COVID fog was gone.
I cautiously eased back into life. I experienced no crashes in the week following the ceremony, and continually increased my exercise until I reached my pre-COVID workout routine. The day I reached my usual 40 laps in the pool, I knew in my heart that I was truly on the path to recovery. Within weeks of this journey, I initiated a progressive return to work.
Over time, I began to see sharing my story as a responsibility to those suffering from long COVID and other conditions that could benefit from psychedelic medicines. My experience has profoundly changed my personal and professional direction, and I am now pursuing studies in Psychedelics and Consciousness at the University of Ottawa.
My greatest hope is that I can contribute in some small way to the launch of clinical trials for the use of MDMA and psilocybin for the treatment of long COVID. My story is mine alone, but hopefully it will serve to inspire others.
In this episode, special guest host Court Wing interviews Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez, MD: professor and chair of rehabilitation medicine at UT Health San Antonio; Joel Castellanos, MD: co-founder and associate medical director of the Center for Psychedelic Research at UC San Diego; and MaryAnn Welke Lesage: a long COVID survivor who reports experiencing drastic improvement in symptoms after MDMA and psilocybin therapy.
As the world slowly recovers from COVID, many people are seeing continued or new symptoms, and while much is still not understood, these symptoms are being categorized as long COVID: essentially a persistent viral inflammation causing brain fog, headaches, depression, and other hard-to-diagnose symptoms. With estimations of as many as 18% of people in the U.S. experiencing this at one point and 6.8% currently dealing with it, could psychedelics – which can decrease inflammation and reset neural networks – help alleviate these symptoms?
They discuss:
and more!
For more info, read Lesage’s article, “How Psychedelics Became Key to My Long COVID Recovery,” as well as the official paper: “Long-COVID symptoms improved after MDMA and psilocybin therapy: A case report.”
Long-COVID symptoms improved after MDMA and psilocybin therapy: A case report
Time.com: The Latest Promising Long COVID Treatment? Psychedelic Drugs
BMJ Journals: Chronic pain and psychedelics: a review and proposed mechanism of action
Uthscsa.edu: Long COVID: A syndrome wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma
Uthscsa.edu: Dr. Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez discusses long-COVID disability before House subcommittee
Psychologytoday.com: Is Serotonin a Cause of Long COVID Brain Fog?
Psychedelics and pregnancy is a highly controversial and often unspoken topic. But beyond the stigma, what does the research, law and culture say about mothers-to-be consuming psychedelics?
As she had done many times before, Leticia Pizano sat in ceremony with her medicine sisters waiting to feel the effects of the four grams of magic mushrooms that she had ingested. An experienced journeyer, Pizano found it strange that 45 minutes later she began vomiting, an effect she was unaccustomed to so early in the trip.
“The medicine just showed me that I needed to get that out of my body because I was with baby,” she told Psychedelics Today.
Still, the mushrooms took effect and led her on a trip she described as beautiful and empowering. The experience enabled her to form a deeper bond with her unborn child. “There’s just a different connection with her; almost non-human,” Pizano says of her daughter, six months old and the youngest of her twelve children at the time of this writing. After her daughter’s birth, Pizano brought her “medicine baby” to every plant medicine ceremony she attended.
For Pizano, participation in community-based ceremony was a motivating factor for her use of psychedelics, and her use during pregnancy was consistent with cultural norms — she is a member of the Sac and Fox and Kickapoo Tribal Nations, where partaking in ceremonies that include plant medicine sacraments occurs all through a person’s life. For most non-Indigenous people, such participation would be unusual and likely stigmatized, perhaps viewed as dangerous or irresponsible.
Yet, as psychedelics enter a more mainstream era, non-Indigenous birthing parents are relying on them as tools for wellness and even lifesaving measures to address treatment-resistant depression, anxiety, PTSD and addiction. Our current paradigms for substance use during pregnancy do not look at psychedelics with a thoughtful, critical lens. A new approach may be required to accommodate the myriad ways our culture has shifted towards turning to psychedelics over conventional treatments and medications for well-being.
Just as with other psychotropics like antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications, birthing parents and their healthcare providers need to evaluate existing information on psychedelics and pregnancy to make informed decisions about whether to continue using them during pregnancy. But seeking information on the web yields few results. And what little information does exist on the topic is often confusing, incomplete and misleadingly shaped by the War on Drugs. One study on pregnancy and LSD – the study most commonly cited online in reference to psychedelics and pregnancy – was published in 1970.
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists offers a blanket statement recommending the cessation of all marijuana use. Other psychedelics are similarly classified into a category of “substances that are commonly misused or abused,” a classification that bears the markings of bias and misinformation. According to the Global Drug Survey, we know that many psychedelic users ingest these substances in a safe, prepared and informed way, and according to longtime drug researcher David Nutt’s book, Drugs Without the Hot Air, psychedelics like mushrooms and LSD are not inherently addictive.
The March of Dimes, a research and advocacy group for mothers and babies, offers an unsourced page last edited in 2016 on their website that reads: “Street drugs are bad for you, and they’re bad for your baby.” The psychedelics included in this category are “ecstasy” and “other club drugs.” This broad categorization fails to account for the therapeutic applications of psychedelics. It also excludes critical factors like set, setting and dosage, all of which make a significant difference in a psychedelic user’s experience.
Mother to Baby provides more nuanced and specific information on psychedelics, but offer inconsistent guidance on the site. One article advises “Other street drugs, like cocaine, heroin, LSD, MDMA (ecstasy or Molly), and methamphetamine, also are harmful during pregnancy.” While the site’s Fact Sheets for both LSD and MDMA state that it is unknown whether the substances cause pregnancy-related problems.
These blanket prohibitions are largely based on the absence of—rather than the presence of—information about how a substance will impact a growing fetus. The medical research canon contains very little information about the effects of these substances during pregnancy, and substantial obstacles exist for this research to take place at all.
Due to ethical and safety concerns, “The research we do have on pregnancy in general—let alone pregnancy with psychedelics or plant medicine—is minimal because we don’t do research in pregnancy for the most part,” says Jessilyn Dolan, a registered nurse, herbalist, hemp farmer and former member of the Board of Directors for the American Cannabis Nurse Association.
Aside from ethical considerations, says Dolan, another challenge is measuring the long-term health impacts to the child of just one substance due to the enormity of confounding factors. For example, is a person who consumes cannabis edibles during pregnancy also consuming caffeine, alcohol, or prescription medication? How might these substances along with the birthing parent’s diet and lifestyle impact the long term health outcomes for the child? And how might the child’s environment, including exposure to toxins, food insecurity, poverty or traumatic life events, play a role in their health as well?
“When we look at pregnancy, breastfeeding and chest feeding and then doing longitudinal studies around kids, we have so many factors working against us to make that research really legitimized and standardized,” says Dolan.
Of the existing research on this topic, most is either outdated or based on small sample sizes. As legal restrictions on these substances shift, this may change. But information about the safety of ingesting substances during pregnancy is still scant, inconclusive and conflicting.
A study from 1968 on nine children exposed to LSD-25 in utero found elevated levels of chromosomal damage compared to a control group. However, none of these babies exhibited any birth defects. This study, with its very small sample size, has never been replicated. It also did not look at long-term outcomes for these children, rendering the results limited in value.
Similarly, an often cited and widely circulated study from 1994 compared 24 newborns exposed to cannabis to 20 who were not; results at 30 days showed that the cannabis-exposed babies actually scored higher on measures of alertness, were less irritable and had better reflexes. But this study, again with a small sample size and never replicated, did not take into consideration the many confounding factors that could have contributed to the results. For example, the study took place in Jamaica where cannabis use during pregnancy is a common practice and is not stigmatized. In addition, the heavier cannabis-using birthing parents were also more educated, more financially stable and had fewer other children to care for, all of which could have impacted outcomes for their babies.
More broadly, research on prenatal drug exposure is often mired in biases. In his book Drug Use for Grownups, Dr. Carl Hart details several problems associated with brain imaging research on people exposed prenatally to drugs. It is easier to get findings published, he says, when they are consistent with the widespread notion that drug use is bad for the developing fetus. In addition, Hart writes the findings are almost never replicated and researchers often ignore their own data in order to draw conclusions that reflect their own biases.
Still, experts in the field like Amanda Feilding, executive director of the Beckley Foundation, a UK-based NGO that funds psychedelic research and supports policy change, remain hopeful about the prospect for more research on the topic
“Scientific exploration could be carried out using animal models, or using naturalistic surveys to get answers from people who are already using or have already used psychedelics during their pregnancy,” Feilding says.
Weighing risks of physical harm to the fetus against physical or mental health outcomes for the birthing parent is one framework for decision-making of this kind. But these calculations are not the only ones a birthing parent will have to assess. Most people who have experienced pregnancy will be familiar with an increase in monitoring by friends, family and even strangers who may feel entitled to comment on body changes, touch the pregnant person’s body without permission, or offer unsolicited advice or opinions on what the pregnant person ingests. Using psychedelics openly may create social stigma and isolation; the anxiety and stress that those conditions create may pose an additional risk for pregnant people.
Pregnant people are also monitored more closely by state and healthcare agencies. The American Academy of Pediatrics and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends screening a pregnant person for drugs when they enter prenatal care. Twenty-five states and the District of Columbia require healthcare professionals to report even suspected drug use, and eight states require them to test for prenatal drug exposure if they suspect drug use. In 2014, Tennessee became the first state to pass a “fetal assault” law specifically allowing prosecution of pregnant women who use drugs, imposing penalties of up to 15 years in prison. The legislation was so controversial it was discontinued in 2016, but has been introduced several times since.
Monitoring for drug use, however, happens disproportionately along racial lines. While white and Black birthing parents have similar rates of any drug use during the prenatal period (though the substances used and patterns of use may differ slightly), an often-cited study from 1990 found that Black birthing parents were 10 times more likely than their white counterparts to be reported to health authorities for their drug use.
Some states are actively working to correct these disparities, with mixed results. A 2015 study of California hospitals that adopted a protocol to monitor all birthing parents for prenatal substance use found that it did not impact child protective services reporting disparities.
New York has taken a different approach. In a testimony to the New York City Council from 2020, David Hansell, Commissioner of the New York City Administration for Children’s Services, stated that the agency had actively discouraged health professionals from making reports to them about a child or parent who tests positive for a substance if there is no negative impact on their well-being and instead make a referral to a service agency. While this could theoretically help level out racial differences, the question remains whether the service agencies would be equipped and trained to adequately address the physical and mental health and other needs of a birthing parent using substances.
Vermont has also taken steps to eliminate the reporting requirement for healthcare practitioners treating birthing parents using substances. If a birthing parent tests positive only for marijuana, they are exempt from hospitals’ and healthcare professionals’ reporting requirements to the Department of Children and Families (although if the marijuana use is thought to endanger a child, it must be reported). The marijuana-only exemption in Vermont is informed by the lack of sufficient evidence suggesting that marijuana use during pregnancy is harmful. But similarly, there is a lack of sufficient evidence demonstrating that other psychedelics are harmful.
For birthing parents who do test positive for substances, their risk of losing custody is also informed by structural racism within the child welfare system. According to Dr. Kelly Sykes, a psychedelic integration therapist and child forensic psychologist, disparities exist between legal systems that govern custody and child protection systems. Allegations of abuse, neglect and drug abuse requiring court intervention exist in both systems. However, only parents within the child protection system—which disproportionately impacts poor single parents of color—can have their parental rights terminated and be permanently banned from having contact with their child. Further, all aspects of their parental judgement are subject to scrutiny; they may be randomly tested for substances, regardless of whether substance abuse was a part of their child protection case.
In this landscape of inconclusive, biased, and misleading information, how can birthing parents make informed decisions on this topic? And without information from peer-reviewed, evidence based research, what might drive someone to elect to use psychedelics all the same during their pregnancy?
For some birthing parents, the mental health benefits outweigh the potential risks.
“Psychedelics can reduce anxiety and depression, and can help people cope with dramatic changes in their lives,” said Feilding. “For those reasons, it’s certainly possible that psychedelics could be beneficial for expectant mothers struggling with prenatal depression or anxiety.”
Dolan, who has worked with pregnant people using cannabis to address treatment-resistant hyperemesis, a condition in pregnancy that creates severe and persistent nausea, frames the issue similarly. If anxiety and stress impede on the connection between parent and baby, research shows that “the relationship and connection is just as, if not more important than the little bit of pharmaceutical that’s going to pass through your breastmilk or pass through in utero to the child,” she says.
Being in a safe, supportive community to help weigh those decisions and process experiences in a nonjudgmental way can be very helpful. For someone like Pizano, this community is built into her everyday life. She grew up attending peyote ceremonies for occasions like baby namings, funerals or healing, and the wisdom she relies on comes from a long lineage of oral tradition, passed down by elders.
For those without such a cultural container, more options are emerging for pregnant people in need of support. A recent Psychedelics Today webinar explored the subject of psychedelics and parenthood with Dr. Glauber Loures de Assis, Associate Director of Chacruna Latinoamérica in Brazil. Groups like Plant Parenthood (which this writer founded) and Moms on Mushrooms also bring together parents to speak about topics that are so stigmatized, they’re rarely spoken about with others.
“Obviously safety is still a primary concern when it comes to kids and psychedelics, let alone issues like pregnancy,” says Andrew Rose, who co-facilitates Plant Parenthood. “But the riskiest thing is not talking about it at all. You can’t have good healthy community education without open, non-judgmental communication.”
Without a clear path for more research on the horizon, and with a landscape of confusing information to draw from, birthing parents will likely struggle to find simple answers. Individuals will still need to factor in their own level of vulnerability, which varies greatly based on race and other socioeconomic and cultural factors. Perhaps the answers we seek do not exist within a search engine, but in a patchwork of wisdom from Western medical research, ancestral knowledge and most importantly, our own inner healing intelligence.
Much like the psychedelic experience itself, the idea of ‘spaceholding’ or ‘holding space’ can strike some as a nebulous concept.
The term is largely synonymous with psychedelic facilitation or ceremony leading. When executed poorly, or not considered at all, the consequences can be severe for the recipient.
When the psychedelic kicks in – whether it be psilocybin, ayahuasca, or 5-MeO-DMT – the individual may arrive at a fork in the road where the ego is invited to dissolve. How they navigate this juncture is key to the quality of the experience and managing their passage towards bliss is one of the key areas where a space holder can earn their salt.
With a safe container created for exploration and tools at hand, including mantras, breathing techniques, and attentive coaching, the journeyer is empowered to surrender gracefully through the depths of consciousness (and, possibly, dimensions). In that moment of ego death – should it occur during the trip – the body can experience long overdue relief from near perpetual fight or flight through a state of rest and digestion which promotes healing.
But in a chaotic setting, left unaided without guidance, travelers may find themselves engulfed in waves of fear and discomfort, veering into distress and confusion and finding elusive the state of simply being, without worries.
The best space holders are beacons of guidance and support in the ethereal, mind-manifesting kaleidoscopic landscapes of a psychedelic journey. Their influence can determine the trip’s trajectory, and the best space holders remain discrete until they are called upon, possessing an intuitive sense of when greater direct presence is necessary.
In the uncharted territory of the psychedelic ’20s, as every man and his dog decides to serve toad venom and ayahuasca, the psychedelic community is increasingly emphasizing the need for well-trained facilitators. Initiatives and training programs like Navigating Psychedelics: For Clinicians and Wellness Practitioners aim to help equip those holding space with the skills to compassionately and adeptly facilitate psychedelic experiences for individuals and groups.
“Psychedelic therapy can bring about intense psychological, emotional, and physical experiences,” writes Michelle Anne Hobart, a spiritual emergence coach. It is thus crucial for space holders to be well-versed in trauma-informed practices to mitigate any issues that may arise, remaining calm, supportive and empathetic for their clients.
In a sense, the phrase ‘space holder’ is metaphoric and refers to the creation of an internal sanctuary for the journeyer, through the adept management of their immediate external reality. Common pitfalls of flawed space holders can include a propensity for touch that may lead to intrusive physical contact, or encouraging excessively high doses. These missteps can all take the participant deeper into the experience than they are comfortable with, and risk energetic transference between the space holder and the participant.
Space holders must exhibit sensitivity and awareness, not only in setting the space optimally with appropriate music, smells, and vibes, but also in witnessing, guiding, and comforting individuals throughout their journey.
Otherwise, ceremonies intended to bring about transmutation and recalibration can become potentially dangerous and risk re-wounding participants who turned up to heal. “The ones who are in the role of holding vigil must be as attuned as the survivors of trauma and spiritual emergency themselves have had to be,” adds Hobart.
The participant has effectively given the space holder permission to witness them in a highly suggestible, hyperplastic and defenseless state. “You’re really putting yourself in someone else’s hands in a very, very vulnerable way, even if you’re an experienced psychonaut,” says Dr. Ido Cohen, a psychedelic facilitator and the founder of the Integration Circle.
The space holder may wish to remain as invisible as possible until they are called upon. It can be tricky to know when greater presence is required, and when to simply allow the profound journey of self-discovery and transformation to happen.
An often-overlooked element of space holding is the ability to be completely present with a participant in their process without judgment or having a desire to give advice, according to Victoria Wueschner, president of F.I.V.E. (5-MeO-DMT Information & Vital Education). Deep in the throes of a visionary psychedelic journey, emotions and words shared may inadvertently relate to the space holder, but it is imperative they do not take it personally and instead remain in a state of compassionate detachment.
“When facilitators step into the role of being a space holder, they commit to giving their full attention and presence to the participant by actively listening with compassion, free of personal ego or motive,” says Wueschner.
If somebody feels unsafe, rushed, or judged, it is more likely that negative thoughts and unresolved memories can arise in an overwhelming fashion. The space holder ideally lifts the weight from the participant’s shoulders, and when the path is clear, a protective bubble is created to block distractions and allow greater space for them to dive deep into their psyches and transform their inner worlds. The space holder is their unobtrusive cheerleader.
The key principles of the Zendo Project, which provides harm reduction education and psychedelic peer support services, are trusting, letting go, being open, breathing and surrendering. The organization advises space holders to be calm, meditative presences of acceptance, care, and compassion.
“Promote feelings of trust and security,” they say on their website. “Let the person’s unfolding experience be the guide. Don’t try to get ahead of the process. Explore distressing issues as they emerge, but simply being with the person can provide support.”
Another aspect of space holding that can be neglected is the process of screening individuals to ascertain whether a particular psychedelic experience is suited for their needs, and then helping people prepare. If a space holder does not, at a minimum, offer to conduct a call before the journey day and provide some preparation exercises – such as intention-setting, journalling or meditation – then that should ring alarm bells.
Space holding doesn’t end when the effect of the psychedelic wears off. A key component of the healing process is the integration – a period which can consist of check-in calls, talk therapy, and the provision of a personalized schedule of activities such as spending time in nature and avoiding certain foods.
But, ultimately, everything is rooted in a trusting bond between the space holder and the patient or client, says Dr. David Rabin, a psychiatrist and neuroscientist who co-founded Apollo Neuroscience.
“Holding space always begins with a safe setting, rooted in trust, that helps to create the fertile ground for the seed of healing to grow. Without the trust and safety of the therapeutic alliance, the healing process can be completely shut down.”
In this episode, Alexa interviews April Pride: creative entrepreneur, veteran of the cannabis space, and now, founder of SetSet, an educational platform and podcast (picking up where The High Guide left off) for women curious about psychedelics.
With Alexa about to embark on the journey of motherhood, she asks many of the questions parents working with psychedelics have to consider: How do you overcome the stigmas of being a psychedelic parent? How do you talk to your children about drugs? How do you know if a substance is ok to use during pregnancy?
Pride discusses:
and more!
SetSet: The Psychedelic Card Game
The microdosing movement is flourishing, fueled by global citizen scientists reporting transformative wellness benefits. Yet, the practice is still an experiment. Most people have no idea what a microdosing protocol entails, what the experience feels like, or how long a microdose lasts. They are simply curious to know if low-dose psychedelics could be a game-changer for their mental and physical health.
This article provides a beginner’s guide to microdosing psilocybin and LSD, exploring research, protocols, and effects, and answering the question: How long does a microdose last?
Microdosing is the art of ingesting low, sub-threshold doses of psychedelics, typically LSD or psilocybin, for mental and physical optimization. Most people turn to the practice to paint their lives with broader strokes of creativity and focus. Others seek to soften the grip of depression, alcohol dependence, and chronic pain.
Words like sub-perceptual, sub-sensorium, and sub-hallucinogenic also describe the microdosing experience. At about one-tenth of the recreational psychedelic dose, microdosing does not significantly alter consciousness. Rather, it delivers subtle or unnoticeable effects. Microdosers who do notice changes report feeling more energized, uplifted, focused, and in tune throughout the day. Others note slight perceptual changes, like sensitivity to light.
Mushroom and LSD microdoses usually kick in within a couple of hours of ingestion and linger throughout the day. One tiny dose can produce ‘afterglow’ effects lasting at least 48 hours. A regular microdosing practice, combined with rest periods, can elicit even longer-term benefits lasting weeks, months, or years.
LSD is far more potent than psilocybin mushrooms, so microdosing amounts differ significantly.
However, optimal levels can easily skew lower or higher and change over time. Microdosers experimenting with the proper dosage can learn more from the Microdosing Masterclass hosted by the “Father of microdosing,” Dr. James Fadiman, and Adam Bramlage, Founder/CEO of Flow State Micro.
Microdosing may seem like a brand new phenomenon, but the modern microdosing era began shortly after 1943 when Swiss chemist and Sandoz Laboratories employee Albert Hofmann accidentally discovered LSD’s psychedelic effects.
A few years later, the first human LSD trial defined microdosing and answered the question, how long does a microdose last? Swiss psychiatrist Werner A. Stoll, MD, in collaboration with Hofmann and Sandoz, tested LSD doses ranging from 20 mcg to 130 mcg.
A few LSD trials occurred in the years following, but political and societal pressures curtailed psychedelic research until the next century.
Finally, the 2010s witnessed a microdosing resurgence, largely due to Dr. James Fadiman and renowned mycologist, Paul Stamets. Their efforts, anecdotal reports, and growing media attention fueled a global movement and reignited scientific interest.
Dr. Fadiman’s website, Microdosingpsychedelics.com, quickly became the the first massive citizen scientists’ database, compiling transformational accounts from microdosers worldwide.
In 2019, the Quantified Citizen app engaged more than 12,000 participants in the world’s most extensive mobile microdosing study. The initiative revealed that “adults who microdose psychedelics report health-related motivations and lower levels of anxiety and depression compared to non‑microdosers.”
In April 2021, one of the first randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled microdosing studies found that LSD could increase overall pain tolerance by 20% at 20 mcg doses. It also showed how long a microdose might last, determining that 20 mcg was equally impactful at 1.5 and 5 hours after dosing. The finding suggests small LSD doses provide lasting pain relief beyond the peak onset.
However, this study did not address mental health outcomes.
Double-blind, placebo-controlled studies confirming that microdosing improves anxiety and depression are scarce. The few that exist suggest benefits might arise from the placebo effect, where the person feels better because they believe they’ve taken something that should help – even if it doesn’t have active pharmaceutical properties.
However, microdosing advocates argue that double-blind studies are inherently flawed, partly because they occur in sterile medical environments that do not accurately reflect the real world. Imperfect clinical data cannot diminish people’s concrete experiences.
Microdosers report a wide range of experiences based on their psychedelic tolerance, the substance they consume, the dosage, and their unique mental state. Emotional and cognitive shifts typically arise in 60 minutes, with noticeable impacts lasting up to 10 hours. Some people report an afterglow effect up to 48 hours after microdosing.
One pharmacology study found that 20 to 60 mcg of LSD administered intraspinally delivers effects in less than an hour, peaking within the hour and lasting nine to ten hours. However, these results could be skewed because most people do not take LSD intraspinally. Oral and sublingual ingestion are the most common routes.
Fortunately, citizen science reports from sources like Erowid shed more light on the question of how long an LSD microdose lasts.
One Erowid contributor, Tetrisdroid, reported taking approximately 30 mcg of LSD daily for a week for his depression and anxiety.
By the end of the week, Tetrisdroid acknowledged that microdosing LSD might have provided a placebo effect. But either way, he felt better and learned he could go a week without turning to other drugs as a way of self-medicating.
Research suggests psilocybin microdoses should be noticeable within 1.5 hours of ingestion. Studies do not indicate how long the effects persist. However, personal stories reveal a psilocybin microdose can last at least seven hours.
Erowid contributor “Katalyst” experimented with microdosing psilocybin mushrooms for seasonal depression. She started with doses ranging from .2g every four days.
Ultimately, Katalyst decided to continue microdosing on the bi-weekly schedule in future winters.
Clinical data cannot confirm microdosing benefits or their duration. However, participants of a self-blinding microdosing trial indicated that the benefits lasted up to five weeks.
During this timeframe, the microdosers experienced significant improvements in psychological measures such as well-being, mindfulness, life satisfaction, and paranoia compared to baseline. The changes might have occurred due to the placebo effect, but the outcomes were positive nevertheless.
Countless microdosers, including the Silicon Valley elite, have been utilizing intermittent low-dose protocols for years. So, microdosing benefits seem to extend much further than five weeks.
Microdosing protocols are as unique as the people who take them. Frequency and dosages will shift depending on the person and their goals. The only consistent answer to “How often should you microdose?” is not every day.
Daily psychedelic ingestion will cause the body to develop a rapid tolerance. As tolerance rises, microdosers will experience diminishing returns, requiring higher quantities to achieve the same effects.
Most microdosing protocols suggest intermittent consumption throughout the week, along with rest periods, to avoid these issues.
The Fadiman Protocol, or the Beginner’s Protocol, follows a three-day cycle established by Dr. James Fadiman. It distinguishes between microdosing and non-microdosing days so people can take advantage of the two-day afterglow.
The Stamets Protocol, proposed by Paul Stamets, involves more frequent dosing options. These schedules aim to maintain consistent benefits while minimizing tolerance buildup.
The Microdosing Institute protocol suggests microdosing every other day for eight weeks. This method aims to enhance the effectiveness of microdosing for medical or psychological purposes such as depression, social anxiety, ADHD/ADD, migraine, or cluster headaches.
Microdosing offers a nuanced approach to whole-body health through the strategic consumption of low-dose psychedelics. The experience is incredibly mild, allowing people to function like normal. But, the effects are still noticeable, easing anxiety, improving emotional functioning, and minimizing pain for several hours. People who feel called to the practice should continue exploring the research and learning from citizen scientists across the globe.
Learn more about the most microdosing protocols and create your own personalized dosage plan with our Microdosing Masterclass.
In this episode, David interviews Dr. 1Drea Pennington Wasio: integrative physician, psychedelic-assisted therapy facilitator and psilocybin retreat leader, international speaker, podcaster, and author of several books, including Sacred Medicine: Exploring The Psychedelic Hero’s Journey.
She discusses her personal metamorphosis and name change inspired by a powerful ayahuasca experience, and how that moved her into a life more inspired by authenticity and self-love. She gives the details of her retreats, explains her PRISM sessions, and talks in depth about the magic of resiliency: How can we not just return to baseline, but experience post-traumatic growth?
She talks about:
and more!
Her new course on trauma-informed psychedelic therapy begins this month, and her next retreat begins May 10. Head to 1drea.com for details.
“On the fourth cup, I saw these visions and I heard a voice. And you know how it is. Yes, ayahuasca is a hallucinogen, but this voice was so powerful. And it basically was giving me an opportunity to make a shift. And the first time I heard it, I said no. The next night, I was in the same turmoil again, [and] by the time I got to my fourth cup, the voice came back and I said yes. And as soon as I said yes to this horrible question for me, I had to grab my bucket and I started to purge. And with that purge, I could see from me as a baby to that point, it was as if I was purging that timeline. What I realized is who I had become (because I grew up with so much trauma), I felt stuck. I felt like I couldn’t get out of the loop, even with this powerful medicine. And what she gave me was the opportunity to purge that. And by the third time I’m heaving over the bucket, I knew: I’m being reborn.”
“As a physician, I just recognize that without self-love – without true, unconditional self-acceptance, it’s really hard to be healthy.”
“I think everyone could benefit from just imagining: What would life be like if I had more magic, and I wasn’t so blocked and limited by my usual way of being or seeing things?”
“Many of us have wounding based on our family, or attachment wounds, so we need to heal and we need to recover in community. A lot of the people who do find success with 12-steps: they find that we recover together. I think there’s a certain magic that happens. A lot of my colleagues in this space say the group is the medicine. Yes, we take these magical molecules, but the group brings its own sort of medicine.”
Psychedelic Preparation and Integration with Guided Meditations by Dr. DaeEss 1Drea (Special offer)
New course: Trauma-Informed Psychedelic Therapy: Supporting Clients with Preparation and Integration
The Hero with a Thousand Faces, by Joseph Campbell
1drea.com: The Dreamweaver’s Legacy
PT384 – Vital Psychedelic Conversations, featuring: Dr. Dominique Morisano, CPsych & Jessika Lagarde
Six Thinking Hats, by Edward de Bono
So, you’ve had a psychedelic experience. And somewhere within the sensory avalanche, the perplexing interior narrative, and avoiding looking at your own face in the bathroom mirror, you (gasp!) may have actually learned something. But what comes next? How can you ensure to take the insights you gathered and apply them to your life? Enter psychedelic integration.
The word ‘integration’ comes from the Latin word ‘integrare,’ which means to make whole or begin again. It also has French roots, from the word ‘intégration,’ which speaks to ‘bringing together parts of a whole.’
While the psychedelic community has yet to uniformly align on a single definition for integration, we can begin to understand it by acknowledging that psychedelics can help disrupt and loosen our rigid personality structures and long-held beliefs. Integration is about finding a middle ground, fixing the tears in our narratives, and becoming whole again.
Sounds simple, right? Simple, yes. Easy, maybe not. Psychedelic integration is both passive and active. It takes time, willingness, and effort to work through and re-live a psychedelic experience within the natural mind. It can involve taking a thorough inventory of the mind, body, and spirit, and challenging oneself to dig deep, get uncomfortable, and sometimes, make big changes.
But don’t panic. Integration is an extremely personal process and doesn’t look the same for everyone. Before getting started, get grounded, give yourself permission to take your time, and treat yourself with love, compassion, and patience.
Someone I used to work with is fond of saying “it doesn’t exist if it isn’t written down.” And while, for our purposes, he uses it in terms of project management, the same is true for psychedelic integration.
As soon as you’ve had a little breathing room from the most intense part of the trip – either before the psychedelic substance has worn off, or a few days after – begin journaling. Writing or recording the parts of the experience that stood out to you is a great place to start while the memory is fresh in your mind.
Whether in a blank notebook, or an intentionally designed psychedelic Integration Workbook, capturing those fleeting thoughts and feelings is often considered a foundational step in psychedelic integration. If a blank page feels a little daunting, check out our comprehensive guide to integrating psychedelic experiences, including meditation prompts, structured journaling exercises, and goal planning.
After a profound psychedelic experience, it’s often helpful to share your story with someone. Whether a therapist experienced in psychedelic integration, a trusted friend, or a member of a psychedelic community, finding a non-judgmental person to hold space for you is important.
The act of verbalizing your experience can help in processing and understanding it on a deeper level. Your experience may have included some anxiety, depression, and discomfort. It’s crucial to find a person who is open-minded (and did we mention, non-judgmental?), allowing you the space to explore your thoughts and feelings without steering them in any particular direction.
If your resources are limited, or there just isn’t anyone in your circle who fits the bill, consider contacting Fireside Project, a free helpline for peer support before, during, and after a psychedelic experience.
“(The volunteers) come to the experiences having had their own experiences, and desiring to hold space for others as they navigate their experiences and navigate their processing afterwards. They’re not doing therapy. They’re not diagnosing. They’re really with the person (the caller, the texter) as somebody who gets it,” Fireside Project founder Hanifa Washington told Psychedelics Today.
Depending on the intensity of your experience and the state of your well-being in the aftermath, finding a trained professional or a doctor may be necessary – especially if you’re in distress.
Psychedelic integration also involves educating yourself about the psychedelic experience. Dive into books, scientific research, and personal accounts that discuss psychedelics and their effects on the mind and body. Understanding the psychological, neurological, and spiritual aspects of psychedelics can provide a richer context to your experience.
To really dig into your integration, consider taking an online course. Navigating Psychedelics: Lessons on Self-Care and Integration was designed so you can learn at your own pace, with lessons on how to get the most out of your experience and integrate psychedelic experiences into your daily life.
These days, there is more psychedelic information available to curious people than ever before. While there can be a lot to wade through, it’s best to find a format that’s easy and compelling to digest. This knowledge can help in recognizing common themes and lessons that emerge in psychedelic experiences. Knowledge is power, and there’s a lot of it out there for you to discover.
Physical health plays a significant role in psychological and spiritual well-being, especially after a psychedelic experience. And if you’ve just had one, your body might have gone through the ringer.
Ensure you’re taking care of your body through proper nutrition, adequate sleep, and regular exercise. Activities you enjoy, like yoga, art, meditation, and nature walks can also be beneficial, helping to ground your experiences in the physical world. Remember, a healthy body is crucial for a healthy mind. Though you may often hear about mental and physical health discussed separately, they are one in the same.
Outside of a therapist or coach, connecting with others who have had similar experiences can be incredibly beneficial for psychedelic integration. Look for community groups, workshops, or online forums where people discuss their psychedelic experiences and integration processes. Sharing with and learning from others can provide different perspectives and insights, and also remind you that you are not alone in this journey.
And even if, for example, you’ve taken psilocybin, don’t discount the experiences of those who have used other substances, from 5-MeO-DMT to ketamine (and all substances in between). While the substances and effects on the body and mind may differ, many of the feelings that can arise and the outcomes can be eerily similar. Finding commonality with many others who use psychedelics for healing and betterment can offer support, understanding, and camaraderie as you navigate your own integration journey.
The morning after my first ayahuasca experience, I woke up to a text from a friend that read:
Try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now.
I didn’t fully embrace the sentiment of this quote, originally written by Austrian author Rainer Maria Rilke, until much later. My friend was gently urging me to avoid trying to decode the ayahuasca experience too quickly. I didn’t take this advice, and by the time I landed back in Canada, I decided the medicine was, without question, urging me to live with more gratitude. Maybe so, but maybe that wasn’t quite everything I could have learned, or even the most profound. Because I stopped asking questions, I closed the door to new insights.
“How beautiful that we have this access to deep knowledge of the universe through us, but we have to be quiet. We have to be quiet to hear the whispers of the heart. And when you become quiet, the whispers of the heart become louder and they start filling you in. Then you have to start believing it,” Dr. Michael Sapiro told Psychedelics Today.
Sometimes, psychedelic experiences can be colossal, endless, and enlightening.
And sometimes, they can also be underwhelming, unremarkable, and even boring. Resist the urge to define the ‘why’ too quickly after the substance has worn off. Take a beat, unpack it, and let it marinate in your mind for a bit before concluding its significance – there may be more (or less) there than you think.
Choosing to take psychedelics can be transformative, opening doors to new perspectives and deeper understanding of oneself. But remember, the true journey begins with integration — weaving these profound experiences into the tapestry of your daily life.
While some may choose to take it slow and make the journey completely personal, others might feel inspired to integrate psychedelic work into their professional lives. If that’s you, consider becoming professionally trained before engaging in psychedelic practice with others.
As you navigate this path, cherish the insights, embrace the challenges, and remember that psychedelic integration is meant to be a journey, not a destination.
Eager to learn more? Check out our comprehensive self-paced course, Navigating Psychedelics: Lessons on Self-Care and Integration for your complete guide to understanding and integrating the psychedelic experience.
In this episode, David interviews Saga Briggs: freelance journalist and author of How to Change Your Body: The Science of Interoception and Healing Through Connection to Yourself and Others.
A collection of interviews, peer-reviewed research, and personal story; the book dives deep into the mind-body connection, how to become more embodied, and our need for social connection – which factors into mental and physical health far more than most of us realize. The nod to Michael Pollan’s book is also a challenge: Have we been focusing too much on our minds and now it’s time to pay more attention to our bodies? How much of the benefit of psychedelic experiences is related to truly experiencing our bodies?
She discusses:
and more!
“I think people are familiar with the ways in which different compounds can influence the bodily self, so to speak. And it’s a really interesting idea that that, in and of itself (the modulation of your body or your experience of your body or how the body is represented by the brain): if that maps onto therapeutic outcomes, if that’s part of what’s so beneficial about these compounds – not just changing neural pathways in the brain, but actually giving you a different experience of yourself as an embodied organism in the world – I think this is a really interesting area to look into.”
“The minimal self is kind of just your basic feeling of being in a body, not necessarily tied to your identity. And the narrative self is like the story you tell yourself: who you are when you wake up in the morning, all of your memories, and kind of your life story. And it seems that there’s something going on with psychedelics where the minimal self: its influence sort of traverses over the narrative self, and we get an opportunity to be re-embodied in a way.”
“I don’t see a separation between a place of calmness within my body and the peace of the natural world. It’s the same quality to me. So if I’m standing, looking up at the stars at night in some beautiful remote place, that resonates inside me because it’s the same quality, if that makes sense. I feel it in my body so profoundly because it’s a reminder that my body is part of this greater profound stillness.”
Sagabriggs.journoportfolio.com
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, by Bessel Van Der Kok, MD
Multidimensional Assessment of Interoceptive Awareness (MAIA)
Biorxiv.orgThe entropic heart: Tracking the psychedelic state via heart rate dynamics
Frontiersin.org: Interoception and Social Connection
In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Peter Grinspoon: primary care physician and cannabis specialist at Massachusetts General Hospital, TedX speaker, certified physician life coach, and author of the new book, Seeing Through the Smoke: A Cannabis Expert Untangles the Truth about Marijuana.
He tells his story of growing up in a house where academics like John Mack and Carl Sagan regularly smoked cannabis, and being inspired by the groundbreaking books of his father, Lester Grinspoon. An outspoken advocate for drug policy reform and embracing different, non-AA paths to recovery, he talks about how he got there: his opiate addiction, fall from medicine, subsequent return, and learning just how deep the stigma against drugs goes, and how much the medical establishment is another arm of the Drug War. Seeing Through the Smoke aims to tell the truth about cannabis, especially on benefits and real and debunked harms. How can we get more physicians and lawmakers on our side if all they know is propaganda?
He discusses:
-The challenge in speaking honestly with physicians about drug use
-Why physicians are in support of researching psychedelics but not cannabis
-Stigmatized language and Drug War vibes in medical software
-The truth about cannabis, schizophrenia, and the risk of drug-induced psychosis
-Portugal and the ‘Rat Park’ model
-The importance of listening to what patients are saying – especially when we don’t have enough good data
and more!
“My dad got John Mack and Carl Sagan together so that Carl can convince John that UFOs aren’t actually real. And apparently, it got very heated, and John Mack yelled at Carl Sagan: ‘You’re being too cartesian!’ So I had a very weird childhood. I mean, all these people were smoking pot frequently in my house when I was growing up, and I grew to associate cannabis with intellectual discussion and very motivated people. I had a very different experience with it than I think it’s fair to say most people did.”
“Back then, the psychiatrists were all completely against psychedelics and people were not at all in favor of medical cannabis. I did my senior presentation as a resident on medical cannabis in the year 2000 (23 years ago), and everybody thought I was so eccentric. And they thought that this was the latest fad, like beta carotene or Omega-3 whatever. And now it’s fun because the same doctors who thought I was eccentric are referring patients to me.”
“94% of Americans support legal access to medical cannabis at this point. …Who’s against medical marijuana? I mean, come on, someone’s dying of cancer; give them some medical marijuana. And again, the AMA still puts it in derogatory quotation marks. So does the American Psychiatric Association. They put ‘medical marijuana’ in these derogatory quotation marks, like, ‘This is just something that only an ignorant patient would believe.’ …I wish they’d just have a little bit more humility and a little bit of interest in rethinking their positions.”
Time.com: Decriminalizing Opioids Will Save Countless Lives
Marihuana Reconsidered, by Lester Grinspoon, M.D.
Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, by Lester Grinspoon and James B. Bakalar
Marihuana: The Forbidden Medicine, by Lester Grinspoon, M.D. and James B. Bakalar
Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org
In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Kate Pate: Ph.D. neurophysiologist; Founder and CEO of Coruna Medical; founding board member of the Psychedelic Medicine Association; and Founder of The Way Back, a company that will provide education and coaching services related to military, veteran, and first responder health – often in wilderness settings.
She talks about her introduction to psychedelics through the Heroic Hearts Project, where she later served as an integration coach and director of research, looking at psilocybin for traumatic brain injury symptoms, and how the gut microbiome changes after ingesting ayahuasca. She points out that gut health hasn’t been a focus of research, but it’s now emerging as a key indicator of physical and mental health. So, how do psychedelics, particularly plant-based ones, come into play? Are the long term shifts after an experience related to a change in the bacteria inside of us?
She breaks down what a microbiome is and how it changes based on diet; how inflammation is created and the inflammatory cascade that happens after a head injury; how toxins create a stress response similar to an allergic reaction; the frustrations of vets and the limited resources of the VA; the commonality of substance and alcohol use disorders in people coming home from service; the many nonprofits she’s worked with; and how important it is to increase science funding from the government.
“There’s a very clear shift in the microbiome population in the individuals who consumed ayahuasca, and it seems to be correlated with the improvements seen afterwards. …I do think that, especially with the psychedelics that are ingested and that come from plants, really, there’s a direct impact on the gut, and I think that can be really beneficial. …There’s an experience that lasts a certain period of time, but there are these long-term changes that persist. And what’s mediating that? Is it just the psychological experience, the spiritual experience? Is it physiology? Are we talking about shifts in the gut or other things controlling inflammation? My suspicion is that it’s all of the above, but we can’t negate the physiological component.”
“Gut health and the GI system used to be sort of like this thing that nobody really cared about. It was not the sexy, fun topic. It was sort of an afterthought of like, ‘It digests your food, that’s all it does.’ And now, it’s the star of the show. I mean, there’s so much to understand and learn there that regulates everything about our physical and mental health, that I think it’s really the target of research in the future.”
“If you eat a Western diet and you drink a lot of alcohol, you’re likely going to have the type of bacteria that colonize the gut that thrive in those kind of conditions, which are more pro-inflammatory. So not only can the bacteria themselves signal the immune system directly, but the metabolites that they’re producing can be very inflammatory and toxic. And that can cause leaky gut, it can influence our nervous system, it can influence our immune system. And all of that can affect, ultimately, mental health, because mental health; all these anxiety and depression-like symptoms and disorders are very highly correlated with inflammatory conditions.”
Sciencedirect.com: Psychedelics as potent anti-inflammatory therapeutics
Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org
Confessions of a Hope Fiend, by Timothy Leary
Here Comes Everybody: The Power of Organizing Without Organizations, by Clay Shirky
Psychedeliceducationcenter.com: Introduction to Psychedelics for Chronic Pain
Do women respond differently to psychedelics than men? And, if so, how are their needs different when approaching these powerful substances?
While crucial research is still limited to help us understand how and why the psychedelic experience might vary vastly among genders, the rise of female-only retreats, clinical settings, and thoughtfully designed psychedelic products and services, are helping provide women safer, more inclusive, and empowering psychedelic experiences.
In an article in MIT Technology Review focusing on women and psychedelics, Juan Pablo Cappello, co-founder and CEO of the ketamine therapy platform Nue Life said, “We started our company knowing that women over 40 are prescribed antidepressants at more than three to four times the rate of men, which has led to one in every five women taking an antidepressant to get through the day.”
Gender differences in the effects of psychedelics remain a topic of mixed evidence, necessitating further investigation. Nevertheless, gender-specific challenges persist. Safety concerns, childcare responsibilities, and the stigma linked to drug use are among women’s hurdles within the psychedelic landscape.
The redesign of healthcare services should prioritize women’s needs. Women frequently experience misdiagnosis and dismissive treatment from healthcare providers, emphasizing the urgency for a more attentive and responsive approach.
One aspect that merits attention is the potential impact of hormonal fluctuations on women’s psychedelic experiences. The menstrual cycle, pregnancy, and menopause can influence the subjective effects and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics, underscoring the need for tailored research that considers these hormonal factors. Moreover, societal expectations and gender norms place pressure on women, shaping their experiences and interpretations of psychedelic encounters. The struggle to balance femininity, career, and family life can affect a woman’s sense of self and her ability to fully engage in the transformative potential of psychedelics.
With psychedelics being non-specific amplifiers, the external setting, the internal set — the mindset and psychological preparedness of the individual — plays a pivotal role. Women may face self-doubt, fear of losing control, or concern about exposure to vulnerable emotions during psychedelic experiences. Carhart-Harris et al. have emphasized the importance of context, including internal barriers that could potentially hinder the therapeutic benefits of the journey.
Historically, women have been underrepresented in clinical trials across various therapeutic areas, and psychedelics are no exception. For example, the term “inclusion of women” refers to the legal mandate outlined in the National Institutes of Health Revitalization Act of 1993, which requires the involvement of women as subjects in clinical research. This mandate applies to all clinical research funded by NIH unless it is deemed “inappropriate with respect to the health of the subjects,” “inappropriate with respect to the purpose of the research,” or “inappropriate under such other circumstances as the Director of NIH may designate.”
This gender bias limits our understanding of the specific effects, safety profiles, and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics for women. The limited diversity among research participants has considerable implications for the generalizability and dissemination of treatments. Research suggests that women may exhibit different responses to psychedelics compared to men.
For example, a recent article examined the adverse effects of drugs targeting serotonin GPCRs in the CNS and PNS. These drugs interact with serotonin GPCRs in the brain and various peripheral areas, potentially causing side effects. Estrogen, which is more prevalent in women, influences serotonin synthesis and receptor densities, and drugs targeting serotonin GPCRs disrupt this process. The periodic increase in estrogen levels and the interference with the serotonin system mediated by estrogen could explain why women experience more adverse effects. Women also have lower serotonin concentrations and faster serotonin metabolism than men, which may contribute to the observed differences.
Biological factors, such as hormonal fluctuations, make research on women more complex and, therefore, more expensive. This highlights the necessity of considering gender as a factor in understanding the impact of psychedelics on mental health and well-being. Menstrual cycles, pregnancy, and menopause can influence the subjective effects and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics. It is also worth consideration that many women experience disruptions in their menstrual cycles. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2022, “most females ages 18-64 (90%) have used contraceptives at some point in their reproductive years, and most have used more than one contraceptive method throughout their lifetime (76%).”
Gender disparity extends beyond research and permeates psychedelic communities, retreat centers, and therapeutic settings. Women may experience subtle or overt forms of discrimination, objectification, or microaggressions, negatively impacting their sense of safety, trust, and overall well-being. Addressing these systemic issues requires a concerted effort to challenge and dismantle patriarchal structures, promote inclusivity, and amplify women’s voices within the psychedelic landscape.
The pharmaceutical industry’s growing interest in psychedelic therapy necessitates a deliberate focus on gender equality and inclusion. As psychedelics become more accepted by the mainstream, it’s essential to ensure that the creation, promotion, and delivery of psychedelic therapies take into account the specific needs of different genders. This entails promoting gender-balanced research teams, conducting gender-sensitive clinical trials, and tailoring interventions to address the diversity of the human species.
While exploring women’s experiences in the psychedelic space, it is also essential to recognize and acknowledge the intersectionality of gender. The experiences of non-binary individuals, as well as those who do not conform to traditional gender norms, deserve attention and inclusion in research and discourse. Non-binary individuals may face unique challenges in navigating psychedelic experiences as they navigate intersecting identities and societal expectations. Let’s foster an inclusive and respectful psychedelic community.
Today, there is limited psychedelic research on factors like drug metabolism, hormonal contraceptives, and womens’ unique physiological traits, hindering the development of tailored psychedelic guidelines and creating unique safety concerns for women who take psychedelics.
Variations in drug metabolism, potential interactions with hormonal contraceptives or reproductive health conditions, and other physiological factors may influence the safety and efficacy of psychedelic experiences for women. Though complex and expensive, funding research focused on women’s bodies and tailoring medicine accordingly will be a game changer.
Certain psychedelics have been associated with increased blood pressure and heart rate, potentially posing distinct implications for women compared to men due to physiological differences. The absence of adequate data raises obstacles in providing accurate information, guidelines, and risk assessments to support women in making informed decisions about psychedelic use.
Studies highlight the relationship between estrogen and serotonin 5-HT2A receptors. Classic psychedelics work by activating serotonin, and research indicates that estrogen enhances receptor density in brain areas governing mood, emotion, cognition, and behavior. This connection may offer insights into gender-based variations in conditions like schizophrenia and depression, more prevalent in women. Additionally, disruptions in estrogen during menopause could affect the 5-HT2A and brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) signalling pathway, potentially predisposing the brain to depression.
The scarcity of research on women’s experiences using psychedelics to support the process of motherhood and postpartum care poses additional challenges. The limited research perpetuates the perception that psychedelics may pose additional risks to pregnant women or those breastfeeding. Without concrete evidence, caution is often prioritized, leading to a blanket discouragement of psychedelic use during these periods. While caution is essential, the absence of research leaves the potential benefits or risks associated with psychedelic use during pregnancy or breastfeeding unclear, further perpetuating uncertainty and fear.
To address these concerns, there is a need for studies that examine the physiological, psychological, and experiential aspects of psychedelic use in women. Such studies should take into consideration menstrual cycles (including those influenced by birth control), hormonal fluctuations, and reproductive health.
The societal expectations tied to femininity and motherhood can significantly influence women engaging with psychedelics, similar to how men navigate their own situations and societal pressures. These norms shape our human experiences, create additional burdens, and contribute to safety concerns and stigma surrounding psychedelic use. Women may sense societal pressure to conform to traditional gender roles, limiting their willingness to explore psychedelic experiences. Fear of judgment and stigmatization, along with challenges reconciling maternal responsibilities, can constrain their ability to fully embrace the therapeutic potential of psychedelics.
Moreover, internalized notions of femininity can lead to self-doubt, fear of losing control, or concerns about expressing vulnerable emotions during psychedelic experiences. Women may grapple with the balance between societal expectations and personal growth, inhibiting their ability to surrender to the psychedelic experience.
The issue of sexual assault in psychedelic spaces has garnered significant attention in recent years, with instances of misconduct and exploitation reported within the community. Such incidents harm individuals and contribute to the stigmatization and fear surrounding psychedelic compounds. These concerns further emphasize the importance of providing safe and supportive settings, prioritizing consent and boundaries, and promoting gender equality.
While psychedelics hold tremendous therapeutic potential, the occurrence of sexual assault within psychedelic spaces remains a disturbing reality. Addressing conscious consent, creating safe environments, and implementing policies to prevent and respond to assault are crucial steps in fostering a culture of safety and respect.
After movements like #MeToo, female-only spaces have become safe havens for women to explore psychedelic experiences without fearing male dominance and sexual assault. These spaces provide a supportive and empowering environment, allowing women to navigate their journeys free from the constraints of societal expectations and potential gender-based harm. Such spaces recognize the importance of reclaiming agency, voice, and autonomy for women within the psychedelic realm.
Women-only retreats create a unique and transformative space for women to explore their inner worlds, cultivate deep connections with one another, and embark on journeys of self-discovery and healing. Such retreats provide a safe space where participants can fully embrace vulnerability. The absence of men often fosters an environment where women feel more comfortable sharing their deepest fears, hopes, and emotions. This sense of safety encourages authentic exploration and expression during psychedelic experiences, helping women ‘take up space’.
Women-only retreats tend to nurture a profound sense of sisterhood and community. The shared experiences, both during and between psychedelic sessions, can forge lasting bonds and connections. These connections often lead to a deep sense of belonging and support, facilitating sustained relationships beyond the retreat experience.
Women-only retreats also provide participants with the opportunity to explore and reclaim their narratives and identities. Many women join these retreats with experiences of societal and cultural expectations, traumas, and limitations. Psychedelic experiences within this supportive environment can pave the way for self-liberation, empowering women to redefine themselves and their place in the world on their own terms.
Many of these retreats often focus on the exploration and celebration of feminine energy and aspects of the self. This journey can be deeply healing, helping women reestablish a connection with their inner wisdom, intuition, and creativity. Additionally, it can foster a deeper appreciation for the unique strengths and qualities that women bring to the world.
Held frequently in natural settings, many women-only retreats incorporate rituals and ceremonies. Reconnecting with nature and participating in rituals can deepen the psychedelic experience, helping participants feel more in tune with the cycles of life and the natural world. This reconnection can be both spiritually and emotionally enriching, assisting many women in reconnecting with the cycles of their bodies.
In her role as a psychedelic facilitator, Jessika has witnessed women emerging from these retreats with a newfound sense of purpose, self-love, and empowerment. This unique quality of women-only retreats lies in their ability to provide a nurturing and transformative space where women can explore the depths of their psyche, connect profoundly with others, and emerge as stronger, more authentic versions of themselves.
Innovating with women-centered design in mind calls for products and services to be designed for, with, and by women, based on their specific needs. It also requires clearly conveying and enforcing guidelines for respectful communication, boundaries, and consent throughout the process.
The world we live in has been shaped by designers, and it is noteworthy that the creative industry, responsible for much of this design, tends to be male-dominated.
The seatbelt serves as the most cited example of a product designed for men but commonly used by women for safety. Using crash test dummies based on average male sizes and weights has resulted in significant safety disparities for women, making them 73% more likely to be injured in a car accident. Beyond physical safety concerns, women face ongoing challenges related to everyday comfort and practicality. Consider the dilemma faced by pregnant women when deciding whether to position the seatbelt above or below their bellies. Another everyday example is the smartphone, tailored for the average male hand, and transforming into a cumbersome object in the grasp of the average woman.
Taking into account the significant impact of these design hurdles on women’s lives, it warrants a thoughtful approach to designing specifically for women in the context of mind-altering substances. Jemma Campbell, head of U.S. creative of Moving Brands, notes “It is very easy to think that design is aesthetics and aesthetics alone. Design is about much more than aesthetics – it’s about solving real-world problems and improving lives. When done right, it gives brands the ability to build connections with people much like human relationships.”
Focusing solely on aesthetics and neglecting research, strategy, and the overall product experience means you might project your own perspective, adopt codes rooted in learned behaviors and societal norms, and follow cues that may not lead to the best solutions.
“So, when it comes to creating women-only spaces for psychedelic treatment, when patients may feel vulnerable and exposed, we need to fully understand and reflect their unique needs and experiences. And that means women designers must not only be involved – they must be leading the vision,” Campbell says.
Include More Female Designers, Scientists, Researchers, and Engineers
Women buy or influence 85% of all consumer purchases, control 73% of household spending, and make 69% of household health decisions. However, research consistently demonstrates that women are not satisfied with the product and service innovations offered to them. One possible reason: 85% of product designers and engineers are men. In areas like healthcare, where setting and environment are critical, designing with empathy is vital. It’s what makes having diverse design teams so important. Therefore, actively seek the involvement of more female designers, scientists, researchers, and engineers. Diverse teams bring a broader range of perspectives and insights, essential for understanding and meeting the unique needs and preferences of women consumers.
Listen and Learn
Cultivate a culture of inclusivity and diversity within design teams, fostering an environment where women from diverse backgrounds feel comfortable sharing their perspectives and experiences. Actively listen to their feedback, concerns, and ideas, and use this input to drive innovation and product development. Establish a safe and confidential space where women can share without judgment or fear of repercussions. Start small and build it organically.
Increase the representation of women in leadership positions and decision-making roles within design and engineering teams. When women have a seat at the table, they can advocate for designs and innovations that better resonate with female consumers.
User-Centered Design
Prioritize user-centered design principles, ensuring that products and experiences are designed with women in mind. Conduct thorough research to understand their needs, preferences, and pain points, involving women from diverse backgrounds and age groups. The experience doesn’t commence solely upon entering a clinic, retreat space, or product use; it begins with communication. For instance, inviting individuals to observe a retreat to ease them in or incorporating controlled microdosing to facilitate their entry could be part of designing the overall experience.
Collaboration
Collaborate with women’s organizations, advocacy groups, and female-focused communities to gain insights and build strong connections with potential users. These collaborations can lead to valuable co-creation opportunities.
In an ideal healthcare scenario, we envision truly bespoke care tailored to individual needs, irrespective of gender, becoming the norm. While acknowledging the historical challenges and potential future obstacles, we, as professionals, understand the complexities. Yet, as women, we recognize the oversight of subtle but crucial distinctions in female bodies and systems. The lingering patriarchal influence in Western research, product, and system development is a fact. We are now on the journey toward equal opportunities. Undertaking specialized research, embracing user-centered design, and holding space to heal past trauma, we hope to see a more inclusive and supportive psychedelic landscape, where everyone’s distinct needs and perspectives receive the recognition and respect they deserve.
In this episode, Joe interviews Dana Lerman, MD: a decade-long infectious disease consultant who has since been trained in psychedelic-assisted therapy, ecotherapy, and Internal Family Systems, and is the Co-Founder of Skylight Psychedelics, where she prescribes IM ketamine and trains therapists who work with it.
Lerman tells her story: how working with kids with cancer made her want to learn medicine, what it was like working as an infectious disease expert during COVID, and how fascinating it has been to start with modern medicine and then fully embrace the traditional frameworks of ayahuasca ceremonies. She has realized that part of her role is to bring that intention, ceremony, and inner healing intelligence to modern medicine – that that will greatly benefit patients as well as clinicians who naturally want to be healers but are burnt out by the bureaucracy and distractions of the faulty container they find themselves in. Skylight Psychedelics is working on opening a clinical research division, researching psychedelics for Long COVID, and bringing in-person psychedelic peer support services to emergency rooms.
She also discusses intergenerational trauma and how psychedelics have affected her parenting; the impossibility of informed consent in psychedelics and why there should be disclaimers as well as instructions; accessibility, the need for insurance to cover psychedelic-assisted therapy, and why the price of these expensive treatments actually makes sense; why we should be sharing stories of mistakes and things going wrong during ceremonies; and why one of the biggest things we can do to further the cause is to educate our children and parents about psychedelics.
“What’s come to me recently in ayahuasca ceremony is that part of my role in this space is really to bring intention and to bring ceremony and the inner healing intelligence and that concept to the modern medicine space. I mean, there’s so many places for improvement in modern medicine, like even: We have a few minutes for a timeout so you can check to make sure that’s the right patient [and] it’s the right limb you’re going to amputate, but we don’t have a moment to talk about who this person is and the intention of this surgery and what we want for this person. We just have this disconnect, and this disconnect; obviously, it’s not just in medicine. It’s in everywhere. It’s our food. It’s our community. All systems.”
“I have three small children. A lot of why I went to ayahuasca was because I knew [beside wanting] to heal myself of all the stuff that I’ve been carrying around, I wanted to shift my parenting and to be a better parent, and I felt that if I carried my anxiety, my control, all the stuff: It just keeps getting passed down because the kids are just learning from us. But if you can address that, if you can address where does that come from, what is the work that has to be done around it, and do that work, your kids see it. My daughter: When I came home from ayahuasca (she was probably seven); she looked to me and she said, ‘Why didn’t you go there sooner?’”
“Anytime people are using these medicines, I think: There’s a huge disclaimer that should be coming with these medicines, like: ‘Your life will be changed forever. You will never look at anything the same way again, and there’s a possibility that you enter into a space where you are experiencing the vastness of the universe, and that may be very overwhelming for you when the journey is over. You need someone to talk about it with.’ The whole concept of integration is so important.”
Vera.org: John Ehrlichman’s quote about the war on drugs
Uthscsa.edu: Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez, MD
Apollo Neuro: Click here to get $50 off an Apollo wearable!
reMind: Get 20% off tickets here using code REMPT20
Register for Activated: A reMind Afterparty here
In this episode, Joe interviews neuroscientist, board-certified psychiatrist, health tech entrepreneur, inventor, and Co-Founder & Chief Medical Officer at Apollo Neuro: Dr. Dave Rabin, MD, Ph.D.
He talks about his path to psychiatry; his realization that trauma and chronic stress were primary themes at the root of most mental illness; and the creation, research and implementation of the Apollo wearable: the first scientifically-validated wearable technology designed to improve energy, focus, and relaxation based on touch therapy. The idea was born from Rabin asking himself: If we’re all starved for touch and constantly feeling unsafe, our bodies prefer a calm, soothed state, and MDMA seems to work by amplifying feelings of safety and essentially telling our brains, “you’re safe enough to heal now,” could a rhythmic vibration programmed to stimulate touch receptors and put our bodies into a meditative state fool our brains into the same perceived feeling of safety – especially if that stimulation is constant? Would our nervous systems be able to tell the difference? So far, the data seems to prove that this technology works.
He discusses what they learned from initial research about how people were using their Apollo wearables; heart rate variability and what changes it; MAPS’ Phase III MDMA-assisted psychotherapy results; the idea of the inner healer; using the Apollo in conjunction with ketamine and other psychedelics to ease pre-experience anxiety; and the concept of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy as reverse trauma, the reality that it could stop epigenetic memory, and the question of whether or not the Apollo can do this on its own.
Apollo Neuro is continuing their research by running 14 different trials right now, and if you ever participated in a MAPS trial, you’re eligible for a free wearable. If you’re just curious about trying the Apollo, you can receive $50 off using this link.
“What we’ve learned through the study of all the work that came before us was that the body actually likes to be in that state. It likes to be in this calm, soothed state, and it’s just overwhelmed and overstimulated a lot of the time and that’s why it’s not in that state. So then the research question was: If we deliver the rhythm that our bodies like to breathe at when they’re at rest (which is like five to seven breaths per minute when we’re normally breathing at 12 to 24 breaths per minute, which is stress breathing), then would the body start to automatically breathe at its ideal rhythm on its own simply by receiving the right rhythm? Is that enough? Like, if you play the right dance beat, will people start dancing on their own or will they just sit in the chair?”
“The word ‘hallucination’ implies that what you’re experiencing is not real, and I hesitate to use that word in the context of psychedelic work because ‘psychedelic’ means to reveal the mind. And so, if we put out the understanding that the revelation of what’s underneath the surface of our consciousness in our minds is not real or hallucinatory, then we might be missing a lot of the meaning of what’s actually underneath the surface.”
“If we are able to show that other safety-based treatments, whether it’s MDMA or traditional ceremonial ayahuasca or other things, or ketamine therapy, or Apollo, or soothing touch: If any of these things are inducing similar changes to cortisol receptors that we saw in that MDMA trial, then we know it’s not the drug that is inducing the healing state. It’s the safety that is amplified by the drug that produces the healing response. And that will be really, really helpful to us as a field to understand what we actually need to heal. I think the theory is [that] we need to feel safe enough to heal. This would actually prove that.”
Apolloneuro.com: studies roundup
The Psychedelic Report: Can MDMA-Assisted Therapy Repair our Epigenetics with Dr. Candace Lewis PhD
Your Brain Explained: Breaking Down Trauma w/ Dr. Gabor Maté & Dr. Rachel Yehuda
Apollo Neuro: Click here to get $50 off an Apollo wearable!
In this episode, David interviews Dr. JoQueta Handy, Ph.D., IMD: speaker, author, educator, Natural Integrative Health Practitioner, and CEO and Chief Visionary of Brilliant Learning, Handy Wellness Center, and Brilliant Blends.
She shares childhood memories of growing up on her Grandparents’ farm, where she developed a deep appreciation for nature, staring at the stars, and the beauty in stillness, and how coming back to that stillness has been key in her life and psychedelic journeys. The conversation then shifts to all that she’s learned through her work with children on the autism spectrum: the problems of putting people into boxes; how autism affects everyone; the different ways people learn; the connection between autism and the gut microbiome; and how she has learned more from some of these children than any book could teach her – culminating in a story of discovering that a very challenged child people were ready to give up on could actually read and comprehend everything he was hearing.
She discusses her favorite adaptogens; the art of stacking adaptogens and different modalities; her multi-day coaching sessions; Internal Family Systems; quantum biofeedback; the use of supplements in microdosing; and Brilliant Blends, which sells blends of supplements designed to provide benefits as close to what psilocybin can provide (but legally) – inspired by the unique needs of autistic individuals. PT listeners can receive 10% off all purchases with code: PT10.
“If we look at Western medicine, we are masters at saving lives. We’re not so great at quality of life. And looking more toward Eastern medicine, European medicine: where body, mind and soul [is] more brought into play – healing, working on the mind, the emotional, the mind and the body for a complete healing… So that was really why I chose the path of natural integrative medicine because I did see that everything has a place. Everybody brings a talent to the table. …We, many times, need a village for healing.”
“I’ve had some wonderful mentors along the way, but being on the ground, so to speak – not just in a laboratory, formulating things – being hands-on with those children on a day-to-day basis: that was the greatest teacher of: how is this herb working? How is this adaptogen working? So when I went to formulate Brilliant Blends, I just knew it had to honor them because I was using that knowledge base. I use it on a daily basis with everyone. …Autistic children have taught us what we know from autism, and what we know from autism applies to everyone.”
“That’s the end game. That’s the bottom line in all of this work that we’re doing. That’s where the transformation and freedom is: to realize that this medicine is in all of us. Maybe we’re just using psychedelics to open that door to reveal it and show us the path how to anchor it, but this medicine is in all of us and always was. So if we can use these different pathways, these different approaches to lead us back home, then bravo.”
Mybrilliantblends.com (use code PT10 to receive 10% off all purchases)
Hemplucid.com (use code PSYCHEDELICS10 for 10% off all purchases)
Neurology physician Dr. Burton Tabaac’s interest in psychedelics began almost by accident. He happened upon the topic through a 2019 presentation during his fellowship training at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine – and may not have pursued a dedicated interest in the field if he hadn’t attended.
“… In four years of medical school and four years of residency training, psychedelics were not mentioned – not even once as part of a comprehensive allopathic education,” Tabaac told Psychedelics Today.
The Hopkins lecture inspired the physician down a non-typical path for those in his profession: research on the therapeutic potential of psychedelics in treating mental health diseases. Today, he explores psychedelics beyond their traditional association with mental health. Entities inclusive of Parkinson’s disease, dementia, stroke, and traumatic brain injury are of particular intrigue with potential for psychedelics to promote healing, Tabaac shares.
In his recently appointed role for the Mckenna Academy of Natural Philosophy, founded by Dennis McKenna, Dr. Tabaac serves as an advisor for educational pursuits and evidence-based methodology. Through this collaboration, he is dedicated to investigating the possible role of psychedelics beyond their use in the mental health realm, and is passionate about exploring whether these substances could help with functional neurological and neurodegenerative diseases.
“There are specific indications that I feel warrant additional study and funding to assess and discover,” he says. “There has already been a lot of research and literature published dedicated to psychedelics for treating depression, anxiety, addiction and PTSD; I’m very eager to partner in pushing the frontier further to investigate what else psychedelics may have the potential to address.”
In the current landscape of psychedelic research, this alliance highlights the evolving role of physicians stepping beyond traditional methods to investigate alternative solutions. The demand for more research signifies a promising future for psychedelic research, with the potential of extending the possibilities of these substances in treating various conditions.
In the healthcare world, it isn’t uncommon to find that many doctors tend to favor Western medicine while overlooking holistic approaches. Doctors don’t typically embrace integrative routes, because the current medical system is guided primarily by evidence-based research, Tabaac says. Treatments typically require strong evidence of their efficacy before they are widely adopted, which doesn’t bode well for most federally scheduled psychedelics in relative nascent stages of research.
“I also think that having psychedelics as a restricted Schedule I class of drugs prohibits a lot of providers from even being able to offer these therapeutics off-label,” he says. “When you look at where the medical/legal field is heading, there’s a lot of promise with the Phase 3 trial that MAPS has presented demonstrating the potential for MDMA to treat PTSD.”
PTSD patients in the MAPS study received three doses of MDMA, supplemented with psychotherapy. The trial results yielded 50 per cent of participants no longer meeting the criteria for PTSD. One year later, without any additional MDMA doses, the number of patients no longer meeting the criteria increased to 70 per cent, “showing that there is some underlying effect on the brain that is sustainable,” Tabaac said.
The MAPS study highlights the transformative impact that psychedelics – combined with psychotherapy – can have on mental health disorders like PTSD, Tabaac says. As more research emerges, it is expected that the medical community will gradually embrace these alternative treatments and integrate them into mainstream healthcare, ultimately empowering physicians to treat patients with greater efficacy and enriching the field of allopathic medicine.
Back in December 2021, Tabaac stumbled across the Psychedelics Anonymous (PA) platform, a web3 community that shared his enthusiasm for the potential of NFTs to bridge communities of like minded individuals. PA offers a secure environment where members can connect without revealing their identities, utilizing avatars to engage in discussions about psychedelics, and exchange personal or professional experiences.
Membership in Psychedelics Anonymous brought with it additional perks, Tabaac said, offering access to educational opportunities such as a plant medicine course at Cornell and participation in the recent Psychedelic Science 2023 conference in Denver. The project has also established a podcast, The Zero Hour, where Tabaac interviews the top minds in the psychedelic space. The most valuable aspect, Tabaac says, was the connections made with fellow colleagues. He connected with psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and researchers who were curious about psychedelic medicine and established this virtual space where they could openly discuss without stigma, judgment, or fear of retribution.
“I attribute a lot of my own development and personal growth and passion for the space to the Psychedelics Anonymous project, because prior to getting involved in that community, there was trepidation over being judged by friends and by society at large, as a lot of the negative press and stigma still remains, dating back to Nixon’s War on Drugs,” he says.
Psychedelics Anonymous also catalyzed Tabaac’s passion in the field to present a TEDx talk discussing Mental Health Meets Psychedelics. In this talk listeners are challenged to question their preconceived notions and judgements as it pertains to the group of restricted therapeutics in the psychedelic class. Tabaac asks if this class of drugs can serve as a paradigm shift in the way mindfulness therapy and mental health is approached.
Dr. Tabaac recognizes the difference between his passion for advancing psychedelic medicine and his commitment to ethics. “I infrequently discuss psychedelics with my patient population, exceptions including clinical trial offerings if inclusion criteria is met. Doctors and health practitioners are constrained by the limits of their medical licensure, and must remain patient until FDA approval is achieved,” Tabaac says. “I think it’s still premature and out of my scope to offer psychedelics to my patients. My mission and my role is better served in pushing clinical research forward, commiting patient enrollment in trials, and inviting speakers who are experts in the psychedelic space to present on my podcast I incorporate teachings on psychedelics to the medical students that rotate with me as it is the only space where they have exposure to learning about these modalities. The enthusiasm and interest among the next generation of physicians is encouraging.”
The demand for alternative mental health solutions continues to increase. Organizations like the Psychedelic Medicine Association, dedicated to providing ketamine treatments and with whom Tabaac is affiliated, are addressing the needs of individuals seeking non-traditional routes. While certain prescriptions may fall beyond the scope of some physicians, adopting a holistic approach becomes crucial. With physicians like Tabaac considering various facets of a person’s well-being, such as sleep, lifestyle, nutrition, social support, mindfulness practices and physical health, individuals can benefit from more comprehensive and personalized mental health care. This avenue goes beyond medications, recognizing the broader needs of patients. It underscores the importance of tending to various dimensions of a person’s life to foster holistic well-being and empowers individuals to explore diverse modalities for emotional harmony. Tabaac emphasizes the moniker of focusing “mental health as part of whole health.”
For physicians like Tabaac, exploring the uncharted waters of psychedelic medicine opens up new possibilities for patient treatment and professional development. It provides access to innovative therapies, nurtures professional growth, and enables them to explore new frontiers beyond the constraints of conventional methods. By breaking stigma, advancing the field, and advocating for holistic modalities, physicians have the opportunity to play a pivotal role in enhancing the field of mental health and allopathy, offering new hope and potential healing pathways to patients. A new era in Western medicine, where evidence-based methodologies, holistic approaches, and comprehensive care intersect, holds the potential for a transformative landscape on the healthcare horizon.
In this episode, Joe interviews one of the world’s leading experts on human performance: New York Times bestselling author and Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective, Steven Kotler.
Kotler’s work explores the neurobiology of peak human performance, flow states, and aging, and the concept of getting our biology to work for us rather than against us in our later years, by using the parts of our brains that expand in our 50s, combined with neuroplasticity, learning by play, and the biggest factor: working toward a very difficult – but not impossible – task. His 30-year exploration of the neurobiology behind people accomplishing ‘impossible’ feats led him to test his theories by teaching himself to park ski at 53 with resounding success, then using his protocol with people up to 70 years old the next season. The story is told in his newest book about challenging tired concepts of aging, Gnar Country.
He discusses the power of flow states and how much flow actually amplifies productivity, motivation, wisdom, empathy, and more; why dynamic motion is a key activity for greater longevity and why skiing and similar action sports are some of the best examples; why dynamic activity in novel environments is even better; why changing one’s mindset may be the biggest factor toward change; why corporations are looking at flow training and where these concepts could go in the future; and of course, how this all relates to psychedelics.
“If you study flow science, it turns out that flow is really great at helping us go from zero up to Superman. It’s also really great at helping us go from seriously subpar, ‘I’m completely broken and sick’ back to normal. And it turns out this combination is phenomenal in the second half of our lives. And flow sits at the heart of peak performance aging.”
“The only way I can go [from] A to B with this is to take everything I know about flow science and peak performance and see if I can use it to accomplish this so-called impossible task. So that’s what the book is. And yes, I was obviously very successful. I went 0 to 60, as I said, in a single season. It was the fastest I’ve ever actually learned anything.”
“The place you’ve got to begin is mindset. The mind-body connection gets tighter and tighter and tighter over time, and it plays a significant role in aging and peak performance aging. Mindset is the greatest example. …A positive mindset towards aging – ‘I am thrilled with the second half of my life; my best days are ahead of me’ – translates to an additional eight years of healthy longevity. It’s wild. …You could be morbidly obese and have a shitty mindset towards aging. Change your mindset, you’ll live longer. Don’t lose weight. Change your mindset. It’s more important. In fact, changing your mindset is more important than quitting smoking for healthy longevity.”
When the Impossible Happens: Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities, by Stanislav Grof
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn
The Gnar Country experiment videos
YouTube: Danny Way vs The Great Wall 10 Years Later
In this episode, Joe interviews Oliver Carlin, Founder of Curative Mushrooms, a grow kit solution company designed to produce mushrooms of one’s choosing within 30 days with little effort and no growing experience.
Carlin tells his personal story of 20 years in the Navy to a 7g psilocybin journey and the work of perfecting these grow bags; how a grow bag works; how easy it can be to grow your own mushrooms; the advantages of growing your own mushrooms vs. buying them; the legalities of grow kits and how he has been able to do this; steps growers can take to reduce their legal risks; the variety of people benefitting from mushrooms (especially in the veteran community); and how growing your own mushrooms seems to make the experience more curated and special.
Curative Mushrooms recently hired someone to create new strains for them every month, they do bimonthly live Q&As for people interested in growing, and they ship a bonus mycology book with each kit that shows how to study spores. They offer growing kits for Lion’s Mane, Turkey Tail, and Shiitake mushrooms, but his most popular option is the “All-in-One Happy Mushrooms for Sad People” kit.
“I do believe there’s always going to be a market for growers, because it’s just fun. And you can create your own strains of mushrooms if you really get into it. I mean, you can even name strains after yourself. And plus, isn’t it cool to grow your own, because now you have super fresh mushrooms, you know exactly what it is, how fresh, it’s going to be the most potent because you just grew it, and I’ll be honest, when you grow your own, it feels like the mushrooms were, like, grown specifically for you. I don’t know, there’s something special about them.”
“I didn’t take mushrooms because I was specifically doing it to overcome depression or anything like that. The reason I took mushrooms was: it was like answering questions about the world that I’ve always wanted to know. I’ve always had a problem with everything I’ve been told, and this was my opportunity to finally get some type of an answer for things that I didn’t understand. And that was my reason. And it completely changed my life.”
Curativemushrooms.com (purchase using our affiliate link!)
Curativemushrooms.com: Content Hub
Join us for A Vital Journey: Transpersonal Breathwork Retreat in PA, July 28
In this episode, Alexa interviews Rachel Clark: Education Manager for DanceSafe, a public health nonprofit specializing in serving people who use drugs and their communities.
As we move into the prime festival season, more people are going to be doing drugs, and the importance of harm reduction and drug testing becomes even more central to the experience. She discusses the complications of drug testing and how it’s more of an act of ruling substances out rather than determining purity; the fentanyl problem and its surrounding myths; how to identify and treat an overdose (and what not to do); Philadelphia’s struggles with Xylazine highlighting the problem with regional cross contamination; and DanceSafe’s “We Love Consent” and “Healing is Power” campaigns, which aim to open up the dialogue of true harm reduction and safe spaces outside of the substance alone.
Check out DanceSafe.org for more info, and use this link when you’re ready to make a purchase!
“You’re looking for red flags and not green lights. You’re not looking for confirmation that something is in your substance, you’re looking for a red flag about whether something is obviously or potentially not what you expected.”
“The three major symptoms of opioid overdose are very, very slow, shallow, and or stopped breathing, reduced or absent consciousness, and pinpoint/constricted pupils. And I want everyone to understand that the cause of opioid overdose is when your respiration, your breathing slows to the point that your tissues are not being oxygenated and perfused and your heart stops. That is the sequence. …If people understood that this is about a lack of oxygen because your breathing is too slow, I think that the public understanding of fentanyl overdose and opioid overdose would change a lot, because that, in and of itself, gives you a lot of information when you’re looking at someone and evaluating if an opioid could be involved.”
“Always communicate the limitations of what you know. Assume that you are missing information, because you are. And when you are reporting on something that you witnessed, share only what you saw and what you did, including timelines. This is a major, major note for anybody, especially people who work in EMS, because there have been a lot of very well-intentioned folks who have ended up spreading misinformation like wildfire by saying things as certainties instead of sharing observations.”
Dancesafe.org: We Love Consent
Dancesafe.org: Healing is Power
Energycontrol-international.org
Check out the Lumenate app, and download it through the App store here!
Planning on hitting a festival this summer? You’re not alone. With COVID restrictions and cancellations now a thing of the past, many music lovers are heading back into the wild and hitting summer concerts and festivals all around the world with renewed energy, making up for lost time with their psychedelic communities and their favorite artists.
But with the freedom and joy that comes along with dancing, hugging, and partying with thousands of strangers until the sun comes up, also comes the potential for mishaps, and at worst, serious harm to you and your friends.
Gathered from our team at Psychedelics Today – who have decades of festival experience between them – here are some tips to help you stay safe and get the most out of your party time during this psychedelic summer.
In 2023, there is no excuse for having to resort to taking whatever substances you can get your hands on at a festival. While it’s possible (and likely!) you’ll be offered psychedelics at festivals, never take anything from someone you don’t know. Should you choose to take psychedelics (or any other substances), acquire them ahead of time from sources you trust and test them before consuming any. Groups like DanceSafe, Qtests, Bunk Police, and Test Kit Plus offer a wide variety of regent testing kits to give you a better understanding of what is (and isn’t) in your substances, including fentanyl. And if you’re in Canada, you can send a sample of your substance to getyourdrugstested.com for a free analysis. You can also browse their results catalog to get a sense of what’s going around in your area, and what the lab results reveal. Many festivals partner with harm reduction groups to provide substance testing on-site, so if you can’t test ahead of time, check to see if your festival offers on-site testing – and use it.
Figuring out how you’re getting to – and perhaps, more importantly – from the festival grounds ahead of time is crucial. This may include public transportation, shuttle services, or carpooling, so determine which option suits your needs and budget. Assign a designated driver, don’t get in a vehicle with someone who might be intoxicated, don’t drive if you’ve been consuming, and avoid walking or biking on poorly lit roads or paths. And when in doubt, call your parents – even if you’re 35, chances are they’ll be happy to give you a safe ride home (and they might even make you breakfast).
Upon arriving at the festival, get a map of the grounds and familiarize yourself with its layout. Locate important areas such as the first aid tent, water stations, restrooms, camping area, and stages. Knowing where these facilities are will save you time and effort when you need them most. Pay attention to emergency exit points as well, ensuring you have a plan in case of an emergency.
Preparing a well-thought-out festival survival kit will make your experience much more enjoyable. Some essential items to consider packing include:
Energy bars or nutrient-dense snacks: these will provide quick bursts of energy to keep you going during long sets.
Toiletries: pack travel-sized toiletries to keep your body clean. Wet wipes, hand sanitizer, mouthwash, and tissues are particularly useful in festival environments where you can get real grimy, real fast.
Changes of clothes and socks: staying fresh and dry is crucial in preventing discomfort, blisters, and skin irritation.
SPF protection: apply sunscreen liberally to protect your skin from harmful UV rays.
Pain relievers: bring some over-the-counter pain relievers like Advil or Tylenol in case of headaches or injuries.
Upset stomach relief: bring TUMS or Pepto in case of heartburn or indigestion.
Phone charger or battery pack: keep your phone charged at all times to stay connected with friends and have access to emergency services if needed.
Sunglasses: shield your eyes from the sun and prevent eye strain caused by bright lights or lasers during performances.
Just like you might with a ceremony, or guided psychedelic journey, ask yourself what you’re hoping to achieve before you dose. Is it a greater connection with your friends and community? Is it a deeper exploration of your inner mind and heart? Is it appreciation for the musicians, artists, or to experience the music more intensely? Or is it simply celebration, unwinding, and feeling good? Whatever it is, big or small, it’s ok! Just try to define it, and go into your experience knowing what you hope to achieve. It also helps to tell your friends what your plan is for the evening or weekend (both the substances you plan to consume and your goals). Added transparency can help you with your psychedelic integration, but can also help mitigate any potential harms, if your friends are watching your back and know your consumption plans.
Attending a festival with good friends is not only more fun, but helps keep you safe. Try to make sure you always have a sightline to your friends in the crowd, but develop a plan to find each other in case you get separated (which can happen easily). Pre-designate a central meeting point to wait for your friends if you get separated, just in case there’s no cell service or one of your devices dies. If you’re attending alone, consider joining or creating a meet-up group to connect with other people, so you’ll have at least a few festival friends. Whatever you do, don’t leave the event with strangers – even if they seem nice, or you’re hoping to hook up – you really don’t know who you’re going home with. Grab that number, and hit up the person in a few days instead.
Summer festivals often take place under the scorching sun, and staying hydrated is paramount to keep the good times flowing. Dehydration can occur a lot more easily than you might think, and can lead to fatigue, dizziness, and even heatstroke – a potentially life-threatening condition. Make it a priority to drink plenty of water throughout the day. Carry a refillable water bottle and take advantage of water stations if available at the festival grounds, and consider bringing electrolyte-rich drinks, or drink powders to replenish essential minerals lost through sweat. Pro tip: Bring an extra bottle cap with you. Refillable water stations aren’t always available and venues usually sell water bottles without caps. Being able to seal your water can make all the difference in the world.
When you’re really feeling the vibe, it’s tempting to dance non-stop. However, it’s crucial to give your body regular breaks. Even though you might feel like you have the stamina to go all day or night, dancing for hours on end can exhaust you physically and mentally – and you might not realize it until it’s too late. Take short breaks between sets in shaded areas to rest and recharge. Find a spot where you can sit down and relax while enjoying the music from a distance. Taking regular breaks will pay off – it ensures that you can last throughout the festival without feeling completely drained by the end of the first day.
And speaking of completely wrecking yourself the first day – you don’t want to be that guy. You the one we mean – the guy who’s rolling around naked in the mud a couple of hours after the gates open. Not only is it not a great look, but if you go too hard, too fast, you could spend the rest of the weekend feeling like shit in your tent and miss out on all the great acts you wanted to see. Finally getting to that big event you’ve been waiting for feels incredible, and the urge to go completely off the rails is real (we’ve all been there!) but the best festivals are a marathon – never a sprint.
Amidst all the sets and activities, it can be easy to forget about eating, especially when substances are involved that suppress appetite. And sometimes, eating is inconvenient – vendors might run out of food before the event ends, or pricing for simple snacks or bottled water can cost a lot. However, proper nutrition is essential for maintaining your energy levels. Try to pack a variety of portable snacks like granola bars, nuts, dried fruit, or energy bars. Incorporate water-rich foods into your diet, like watermelon, oranges, or berries to help you stay hydrated while providing essential vitamins and minerals. And if you eat from the food carts, look for options that offer a balance of proteins, carbohydrates, and vegetables to keep your energy levels stable.
Sometimes, the combination of psychedelics and an intense festival environment can be extremely overwhelming. Should you find yourself in an uncomfortable headspace, surround yourself with people you trust, breathe through the emotions, and just remember – it won’t last forever. If a friend is going through a tough time, sit with them, let them know you’re there for them, and remain calm, and hold space. However, there is a difference between a challenging psychedelic experience, and a serious medical issue, so ALWAYS keep a watchful eye out for signs of drug toxicity in yourself and others (nausea, difficulty breathing, chest pain, dizziness, etc.) and seek out medical attention if necessary. When in doubt, a trip to the medical tent is never a bad idea.
Dancing and standing for long periods of time can strain your muscles and lead to discomfort. Take breaks to stretch and release tension. Stretching exercises can improve circulation, prevent muscle cramps, and help you stay flexible. Consider incorporating gentle yoga poses or basic stretching routines into your festival experience to keep you limber and feeling good on the dance floor.
Finding moments of tranquility from all the festival stimuli can be crucial for recharging and regaining focus. Seek out quiet places within the festival grounds:
Chill-out areas: many festivals have designated chill-out zones where you can relax and escape the noise. These areas may feature comfortable seating, hammocks, or shaded spaces. Take advantage of these spaces to unwind, socialize with other festival-goers, or simply enjoy a moment of solitude.
Natural surroundings: if the festival grounds allow, explore nearby natural areas. Find a serene spot under a tree, by a lake, or on a hilltop to enjoy some peace and connect with nature. Nature has a calming effect on the mind and can provide a much-needed break from the intensity of the festival atmosphere.
Silent disco or acoustic sets: some festivals offer silent discos or acoustic sets, where you can enjoy music with headphones or experience stripped-down performances. These intimate settings provide a break from the overwhelming sound levels of main stages while still allowing you to enjoy live music.
Unpopular opinion: acting on the phrase ‘I can sleep when I’m dead’ is, while kind of true, a really great way to ruin your festival experience. Adequate sleep is crucial for recharging your body and mind, so try to establish a sleep routine if you’re on a multi-day trip. Find a quiet and comfortable place to rest, whether it’s in your tent or a designated camping area. Invest in earplugs, an eye mask, some CBD (visit our friends at HempLucid for 10% off all products with code PSYCHEDELICS10) or noise-canceling headphones to create a peaceful sleeping environment, and get some shuteye – even just for a few hours.
What are some of your top tips for staying safe and having a great time at festivals? Join in the conversation on our socials, and tell us how you make the most out of your trips.
In the second episode of our special, two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show, Joe Moore and Anne Philippi are live once again bright and early from Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen to this podcast as they interview four guests working on the front lines of psychedelic research, law, and the treatment of chronic pain.
Guests for this episode include:
Imperial College London Centre for Psychedelic Research
Clusterbusters
PT404 – Clusterbusters: The Horrors of Cluster Headaches and the Miracle of Psilocybin
Court Wing – Pain and Its Relationship to the Mind
Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain, by Court Wing
Why Did Psychedelics Relieve My Chronic Pain? by Court Wing
Psychedelics Today is reporting live this week from the industry event of the year, Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen in to this podcast as our co-founder, Joe Moore, and New Health Club founder Anne Philippi hit the conference floor bright and early in the first episode of a special two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show.
In this limited series, Joe and Anne chat in real-time with guests working in all corners of the psychedelic ecosystem, from advocacy, law and finance, to research and therapy.
Guests for this episode include:
Working Weekends at a Psych ER – Interview with Julie Holland on NPR
American Psychedelic Practitioners Association
PT249 – Hadas Alterman, Serena Wu, and Adriana Kertzer of Plant Medicine Law Group
Psychedelic Medicine Coalition
PT396 – Moms on Mushrooms: Motherhood and Psychedelics Inside a Broken Culture
In this episode, Joe interviews Priyanka Wali, MD: board-certified practicing physician in Internal Medicine, MAPS-trained psychedelic facilitator, comedian, and co-host (with Sean Hayes of “Will & Grace” fame) of the HypochondriActor podcast, where they discuss interesting medical issues in a funny (and hopefully uplifting) way.
She talks about recognizing and protecting the humanity of healthcare professionals, and how medical school is creating a cycle of hurt people trying to help other hurt people. She believes we need to become more holistic, especially in embracing Indigenous ways of thinking, as their frameworks may be the only way to explain phenomena with which Western science can’t yet come to terms.
They talk a lot about ancient psychedelic use: the use of a soma described in the Rigveda; Egyptian culture and mushrooms observed in statues; Plato; the work of Brian Muraresku and Graham Hancock; and Vedic chants, Kashmiri Bhajans, and how singing (especially in a group) can be especially healing to the nervous system. And as Wali experienced first-hand the Kashmiri Pandit genocide of 1990, she discusses how much colonialism has changed cultures, and how much our cycles of oppression relate to our collective inability to experience pain and fear.
They discuss the psychological impact of living through major catastrophes; the special and hard-to-describe feeling of returning to your home (especially in a world changed by colonization and constant conflict); the sad case of Ignaz Semmelweis and hand washing; ghosts of Japan’s 2011 tsunami, the concept of ‘future primitive,’ and more.
“We’re only thinking about it from a certain perspective. And this is where you think about principles of colonization come in: looking at things only from one perspective. If you start to bring in Indigenous systems [and] Indigenous ways of looking at data, then suddenly, we do actually have ways to account for these other phenomenon that can’t be objectively tabulated.”
“In traditional Kashmiri culture, it was routine to gather together and sing together. We humans: we’re supposed to gather around the fire and dance and chant. There’s actually something very healing for our bodies. And let’s not forget how our nervous systems regulate with each other, so being physically together as a group, as a collective, singing, using our bodies: it’s actually very healing for the nervous system. We need more of that.”
“I think the next shift in consciousness is recognizing that we experience fear as part of the human experience, but we can choose not to give into it. We can be with it, we can allow it to be there, we can even honor it, but we don’t have to act on it. And we can, instead, choose the path of peace or love, or not even choose those paths, but just choose not to do anything with the fear; choose not to oppress someone, judge someone, lash it out, [or] numb it. …Unless we, in the present day, begin to start being with our fear, we will continue to perpetuate these cycles of oppression.”
Apple podcasts: The HypochondriActor podcast
Wikipedia.org: Kashmiri Pandits
Ripleys.com: The Hallucinatory Voices That Saved a Woman’s Life
When the Impossible Happens: Adventures in Non-Ordinary, by Stanislav Grof Ph.D.
Cosmic Trigger I: Final Secret of the Illuminati, by Robert Anton Wilson
Researchgate.net: Evolution of ephedra as the Soma of Rigveda
Tripsavvy.com: Philae Temple Complex, Egypt: The Complete Guide
Sciencedirect.com: The entheomycological origin of Egyptian crowns and the esoteric underpinnings of Egyptian religion (Stephen R. Berlant)
Libcom.org: What is anarcho-syndicalism?
Psychedelics Today: PTSF 35 (with Brian Muraresku)
Netflix.com: Ancient Apocalypse
Psychologytoday.com: Kirtan: The Easy Meditation That Can Improve Your Brain
Paannyaar.com: Kashmiri Bhajans – List Of Most Popular Bhajans In Kashmiri
Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn
Npr.org: The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing And Briefly Saved Lives
Historicalindia.org: Genocide of Kashmiri Pandits
In this episode, David interviews two of the founding members of Fireside Project: activist, healing justice practitioner, musician, and Chief Ambassador, Hanifa Nayo Washington; and lawyer, aspiring researcher, and Executive Director, Joshua White, Esq.
Fireside Project was created after White volunteered for a help line for years and realized a few things: that follow-up calls made a big difference; that the state of mental health in the U.S. was a disaster (he was talking to some of the same people for years); and that while psychedelics were becoming popular, they would likely only be accessible to the wealthy. Alongside Washington, they realized the most effective thing they could do would be creating a free help line where people could call for peer support during a psychedelic experience, and receive support in integrating that experience afterward. They’ve focused on finding volunteers who may be marginalized or who have been persecuted from the war on drugs, but most importantly, have real experience and true compassion (rather than letters after their name proving their credentials). They are on track to receive 10,000 calls over their first two years.
They discuss Fireside’s Burning Man origin story; the serendipity they’ve seen in the organization’s beginnings and so many calls; where the name came from; how they prepare volunteers; what true equity looks like; and how, while it’s a common challenge for therapists and facilitators to hold back and not try to fix a problem, that may be even more important here.
Fireside Project takes calls every day from 11am – 11pm PST, and while there is an app you can download, they recommend saving their number in your phone for when you need it (62-FIRESIDE). And to destroy the notion of being afraid to ask for help, they encourage everyone to share their stories on social media: the times that you’ve used Fireside Project or the times you had a challenging experience and wish you had known about them. Many newcomers have no idea this support exists, and it could truly be life-changing for them.
“What’s revolutionary about what we’re doing in this idea of democratizing care is that these are volunteers, and they come as peers. They come to the experiences having had their own experiences, and desiring to hold space for others as they navigate their experiences and navigate their processing afterwards. …They’re not doing therapy. They’re not diagnosing. They’re really with the person (the caller, the texter) as somebody who gets it.” -Hanifa
“I think some of the most powerful moments on the line come when we say absolutely nothing at all, when we just allow the silence to become almost palpable, to really feel that ember. I think silence has led to so many of the most beautiful moments that I’ve been lucky enough to see on the line.” -Josh
“By being able to create a safe and non-judgmental space for people by phone, then yes, that absolutely can reduce the risks of their psychedelic experiences. And I think there’s kind of a yin and yang here, which is that when a person is in a space of non-judgment, and when they do feel deeply seen and heard and listened to, then that not only reduces the risks, but it also allows someone to really turn towards their psychedelic experience and to unwrap the gift that’s before them.” -Josh
Year of Yes, by Shonda Rhimes
Good Chemistry: The Science of Connection from Soul to Psychedelics, by Julie Holland (*Josh called it The Chemistry of Connection, but that’s a different book)
In this episode, Joe lets Court Wing take lead in interviewing two of the leaders behind Clusterbusters: Founder and Executive Director, Bob Wold; and President, Eileen Brewer.
A long-time friend of the show, Court Wing has become our resident expert on chronic pain, writing articles about how psilocybin relieved his chronic pain, and hosting Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD in their episode about phantom limb pain. Now he speaks with Clusterbusters, a non-profit dedicated to educating people about the horrors of cluster headaches, funding ongoing research into new treatments, and normalizing the miracle that psilocybin has been to so many sufferers in alleviating their headaches.
Wold and Brewer discuss their past struggles (Wold is a cluster sufferer and Brewer has migraine disease) and discovering the amazing intervention of psychedelics; the battles they’ve gone through in spreading this knowledge; how using psychedelics is also helping people work through PTSD; the barriers that legal psilocybin is creating; the concept of schools having a drug education program; the research looking at cluster headaches and other headache diseases; their creation of the Pain And Psychedelics Association, and more. While cluster headache sufferers have a lot to be frustrated about; as psilocybin becomes more mainstream and more and more research is funded, they now have a lot of hope.
“A couple of people started growing their own mushrooms and self-treating themselves just to try it to see if it might actually help, and the results were incredible. It was better than anything that any of them had tried in the past. It wasn’t really an abortive (it wasn’t treating one headache) and it wasn’t really a preventive, where you would take it and you would prevent some of your cluster attacks. It was something that was actually doing both of those things, and people were getting long-lasting results by one or two doses of magic mushrooms.” -Bob
“It makes sense that that would happen within a disease community, it happens outside of disease communities too. Some people just use psychedelics occasionally just to get that perspective back and to work within themselves (and without themselves) to sort it all out, [and] get themselves back together. And I think there’s a real division there between people who do that and people who don’t.” -Eileen
“The two or three years before my first dose of psilocybin, my medical bills were like $20,000 a year trying to treat my clusters. That included hospital stays and specialists and travel. …The first time I grew my own mushrooms, it cost me a hundred dollars to grow a year’s supply and I didn’t have to go to Walgreens to pick up my medicine. So my medical treatment for the following year for my cluster headaches was $100 versus $20,000 and I was able to take as much as I needed when I needed it. And at this point, that’s what most people with headache disorders are doing; they’re growing their own because the system is going to take years and years to be built into something that’s actually accessible to everybody – and affordable.” -Bob
“People are dying while we’re waiting for these policies to happen, and I’m really struggling with the fact that we are setting up more barriers. I know that all the intentions are good, but we are hurting people.” -Eileen
Psychedelics Today: Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain
Psychedelics Today: Why Did Psychedelics Relieve My Chronic Pain?
Psychedelics Today: PT306 – Dr. Devon Christie – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
UC San Diego Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative
Newswire.ca: Apex Labs Granted Approval for 294 Patient Take Home Psilocybin Clinical Trial
FDA.gov: Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies | REMS
Yalemedicine.org: Emmanuelle Schindler, MD, Ph.D.
Maastrichtuniversity.nl: Dr. Jan Ramaekers
In this episode, David interviews neuroscientist, artist, and educator, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D.; and Ph.D. candidate in Neuroscience, lead or co-author on over a dozen scientific publications, and regular contributor to PT, Manesh Girn.
They tell their stories of how they became interested in neuroscience, and stress the importance of staying radically open-minded (or “epistemically naive”) when it comes to how much we can claim we understand about the brain, the mind-body connection, and consciousness itself – that while fMRI and other advances have brought us a long way, there are still a ton of “unknown unknowns,” especially around creativity, decision making, and imagination. They discuss the misconception that we only use 10% of our brains; comparisons between the brain and the universe; society’s misunderstanding of “happy hormones” (dopamine, serotonin, etc.); how chronic stress takes a toll on all parts of the body; how MDMA works with memory processing; and how stacking modalities with the psychedelic experience (like play or activities focused on emotion regulation) can really help with personal goals and growth.
They have taken their understanding and fascination with neuroscience and applied it to a new course in our Psychedelic Education Center: “Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects“: an 8-week live course with 10 hours of prerecorded material and a built-in community. It was designed with practitioners and clinicians in mind, but with the goal of still being as accessible as possible for anyone who is curious about the neuroscience of psychedelics, and how that knowledge can help with preparation, the journey, integration, and working with a heightened window of neuroplasticity.
Class begins on May 17, and if you sign up before April 12, you can get $100 off!
“There’s so much good science now, and good neuroscience that can inform how people work with their clients in terms of helping them set up for and make sense of their psychedelic experience and ways to optimize the preparation before going into a psychedelic journey, the actual psychedelic journey in terms of thinking about dosing and type of substance to work with, and then also in the integration period, where there’s this heightened window of neuroplasticity and how one could really work with a client to best take advantage of that window of opportunity to lead to lasting change.” -Melanie
“It’s just this blob, this squishy blob of matter. And you think: for that person, their entire life, experiences, memories, [and] hopes were all happening in this little blob that’s in my hand. And just seeing all the layers of blood vessels and how everything’s connected to each other, it’s just fascinating and it’s downright bizarre that somehow, this thing can give rise to experience and consciousness. It’s like, how the hell is that even possible?” -Manesh
“For people who are interested in stacking modalities, there’s other modalities that are really potent at promoting neuroplasticity. So if you want to synergize with the window of plasticity during the integration period, you could for sure partake in regular exercise, because that’s one of the most well-known plasticity promoters.” -Melanie
“How do we respond adaptively to times of change? How do we adjust ourselves? How do we create homeostasis in a changing environment, and how do we adapt to new circumstances? And this is also a whole brain/nervous system/body affair as well, on how to regulate your entire organism to deal with change and to be resilient and to be adaptable. It’s not just in the brain. It’s not just in the brain at all.” -Manesh
Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects (Sign up before April 12 for $100 off)
YouTube: The Psychedelic Scientist
Psychedelics Today: PT258 – Manesh Girn – Psychedelics and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and Creativity
Theguardian.com: Dreamachine, the psychedelic contraption hoping to blow British minds
Huffpost.com: What Exactly Are Sweetbreads, Anyway? A Guide For Anyone Who Doesn’t Already Know
Britannica.com: Do We Really Use Only 10 Percent of Our Brain?
Sciencedaily.com: Massive study reveals few differences between men’s and women’s brains
Healthline.com: How to Hack Your Hormones for a Better Mood
Psychologytoday.com: What Does ‘Allostatic Load’ Mean for Your Health?
Psychedelics Today: PT288 – Annie & Michael Mithoefer – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
In this episode, in celebration of International Women’s Day, Victoria interviews Tracey Tee: co-founder and CEO of Band of Mothers Media, co-producer and co-host of the Band of Mothers podcast, and founder of Moms on Mushrooms, an online educational community for psychedelic-curious moms outside the prying eyes of social media.
With similar histories of womb trauma, self discovery, and body reconnection, Victoria and Tracey discuss the complications of motherhood, substance use and embracing psychedelics in a broken culture, in which engaging with small, approved coping mechanisms is fine – where the “wine mom” archetype and numbing yourself with medications is celebrated, but where we don’t often talk about how challenging motherhood can really be, and the lasting mental, physical, and spiritual impacts of birth, loss, and grief. Tracey’s goal with Moms on Mushrooms is to bring mothers together for personal growth, healing, and most of all, for the safe, supportive container that so many women considering plant medicine need.
She tells her story of creating and performing “The Pump and Dump Show” and the psychedelic journeys that led her to creating M.O.M., and discusses much more: how those large dose journeys reconnected her with her body; how microdosing has helped her feel more vulnerable, honest, and in tune with her daughter; how psychedelics can help parents realize where problematic core beliefs came from; how teaching children the ways of the world forces parents to confront and reaffirm what they truly believe; and the challenges mothers face in even talking about wanting to try psychedelics.
If you’re a mother and this episode resonates with you, check out Tee’s Microdosing 101 (for moms) course or join the Moms on Mushrooms community for $4.44 a month.
“Had I not had this divine intervention, I think I would have been pretty stubborn, which I can tend to be. I would have not wanted to be vulnerable with my daughter because I think I was raised to say that that wasn’t something that is good or that I should show – I’m a parent: ‘My way is the highway.’ Instead, I’m much softer. I ask for forgiveness, I tell her when I screw up, I admit my mistakes, [and] I ask her what she thinks. I always talk about Old Tracey and New Tracey (Old Tracey and ‘Shroom Tracey’): Old Tracey would have never been like that, and I think that’s a real gift, because in asking forgiveness [and] in admitting my mistakes, I’m changing.”
“What is the most upsetting to me is the fear, like this push/pull of hearing either my story or your story or reading How to Change Your Mind or watching a Netflix thing and saying: ‘My soul is telling me this makes sense, my soul is telling me to give this a shot. I might have a way out of this,’ and then my head is like: ‘You cannot do this. You’re a bad person, this is shameful, you might die (which is ridiculous) and at the very least, your children will be taken away from you.’ And that is why I’m talking to you, because that has to stop. It has to stop.”
“I don’t love rehashing the past. I don’t love carrying victimhood, but I am sad for what I lost. And when I work with the medicine (again, intentionally, safely; all the things that we’ve been talking about), I am shown, piece by piece, [that] I’m calling all those parts back. And it’s not easy, but it’s like I’m rebuilding. I’m like a Lego project right now, and I would never be able to do that without the shrooms.”
Psychedelics Today: Reclaiming Ownership of Your Body With Psychedelics, by Jessika Lagarde
Psychedelics Today: PT236 – Drugs: Honesty, Responsibility, and Logic, featuring: Dr. Carl Hart
Psychedelics, once heavily restricted for research, are now being rigorously tested through clinical trials to explore their potential therapeutic benefits. But how are women represented in the search to uncover the efficacy of psychedelic medicines?
While the inclusion of women in psychedelic clinical trials is clearly important – both to understand the effects of these medicines on all genders as well as to develop effective treatments for conditions that primarily affect women – women have historically been underrepresented in clinical trials.
Why has this become the norm? Is it because women aren’t as available as men to participate in studies? Or perhaps women don’t suffer from the illnesses being studied as often as men?
Spoiler: it’s neither.
The clinical trial process is, largely, a series of research studies that evaluate the safety and effectiveness of new drugs, treatments, or medical devices on human subjects. To fit into a pharmaceutical model, a.k.a. develop a drug or treatment protocol that clinicians can prescribe and health insurance will cover, psychedelic medicines must follow the same clinical trial process that all new drugs and treatments undergo.
If it seems like there’s a new clinical trial announced each week – from psilocybin for depression to MDMA for PTSD to LSD for cluster headaches – it’s because these trials are crucial (and non-negotiable) for biotech companies seeking to bring their compounds and modalities to market. These trials aim to prove the effectiveness of a particular compound or method of use, and ultimately secure the holy grail of U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval.
Clinical trials are conducted in several phases, each with specific goals:
Phase 1: A small number of healthy volunteers receive the drug or treatment to evaluate its safety and determine the appropriate dosage.
Phase 2: A larger group of volunteers with the condition that the drug or treatment is designed to treat receive the treatment to assess its effectiveness and side effects.
Phase 3: An even larger group of volunteers with the condition receive the treatment in a randomized and controlled study to confirm its effectiveness and monitor side effects.
Phase 4: The drug or treatment is approved and marketed for public use, and ongoing studies continue to monitor its long-term safety and effectiveness.
Throughout the clinical trial process, participants are closely monitored and data is collected to evaluate the drug or treatment’s safety, efficacy, and potential side effects.
As hard as it may be to believe, it wasn’t until 1993 that women and minorities were required to be included in any NIH-funded clinical research. In 1977, the FDA recommended excluding women of childbearing age from Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials, even if they used contraception, were single, or had husbands with vasectomies.
The objective was to avoid unforeseen birth defects in babies born to women in clinical trials. The result, however, is that most currently prescribed medications were approved by the FDA before 1993 – which means they’re prescribed to women and men at the same dose and were unlikely to have adequate representation of women in their clinical trials.
Francesca Minale, President of Vici Health Sciences and an expert at working with the FDA to bring new medications through clinical trials to approval, says the lack of gender differentiation in dosing persists despite known differences in disease states by gender.
“There is a lack of incorporation of gender data and generic specific dosing and administration on FDA-approved prescription labels,” said Minale. “This gender bias in the research needs to be addressed, especially as it is well documented that many diseases, such as mental health or heart disease, are recognized to have gender differences.”
Excluding women from early-stage clinical trials led to a vast shortage of data around how today’s drugs affect women – a knowledge gap that scientists are still trying to fill. Even though the NIH now requires women to be included in all clinical research funded by the government agency, there are still many criteria that make it difficult for women to participate in clinical trials.
The results of clinical trials play a critical role in informing regulatory decisions about whether to approve new medicines for widespread use. However, in the past, clinical trials often failed to accurately reflect the populations they intended to serve – especially women.
This is actually a pretty big problem, because women experience adverse drug reactions nearly twice as often as men. Women consistently manifest elevated blood concentrations and longer elimination times of drugs, unrelated to differences in body weight.
As psychedelic clinical trials seek to determine the safety and efficacy of new psychedelic treatments, it’s imperative we learn from past mistakes. A recent study identified 86 medications approved by the FDA that are more likely to cause complications for women than men.
But yet it’s common practice to prescribe equal doses of medications to men and women – contributing to the overmedication of women and female-biased adverse drug reactions.
In fact, because women were excluded from many pivotal clinical trials, many drugs have been withdrawn from the market or have had their labels changed to include warnings about increased risks for women after they were already approved by the FDA and widely used.
Amy Reichelt, Ph.D., Director of Neuropharmacology at Cybin explained, “In early-stage clinical trials (i.e., Phase 1) where drugs are tested in healthy volunteers, key inclusion/exclusion criteria can bias genders tested.”
Typical protocol wording includes: “Women of childbearing potential (WOCBP) must be non-lactating and have a negative pregnancy test. Females who are not WOCBP must be either surgically sterile or post-menopausal.” Reichelt said. “This immediately excludes a number of women, particularly when age ranges of trials can have cut-offs of 55-60 years.”
Moreover, it is often written into the trial protocol that a woman of childbearing potential must agree to practice an effective means of birth control/contraception during their participation in the clinical trial, and following the trial for several months. This could impact individuals who are trying to start a family for many months, again discouraging women from participating.
Reichelt pointed out, “Later stage trials (i.e., Phase 2b, Phase 3) can be less restrictive as they are testing in patient populations and initial safety tests are fulfilled in the healthy volunteers in early stage trials, but still there are often requirements for contraceptive use that fall upon the women’s responsibility.”
In addition, body weight restrictions may also prevent women from participating if they are below the protocol threshold i.e., less than 60 kg/132 pounds.
The differences between the sexes in circulating levels of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estradiol, can affect pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic parameters – which help determine how the drug is absorbed, distributed and metabolized in the body, and how the drug affects the body, Reichelt explained.
Body composition can impact how a drug is processed and eliminated from the body, too. “Women typically have a lower body weight than men, so when the same dose of a drug results in a higher level of drug circulating by body weight. As women generally have a greater body fat content than men, some drugs can be distributed through the body differently,” said Reichelt.
The impact of sex can differ across life stages, too. After menopause, the reduction of estrogen can alter aspects of brain plasticity. Preclinical studies have shown that at the neuronal level, estrogen can increase the density of dendritic spines.
This brain phenomena may subtly affect mood and cognition during a woman’s estrous cycle, and could affect clinical outcomes. More studies are needed to fully understand these impacts, especially when it comes to psychedelic medicines which are closely tied to brain plasticity and dendritic spines.
For Natalie Gukasyan, M.D., Medical Director of Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, the physiological differences between men and women in the psychedelic experience and outcomes is an area that requires further investigation.
“We don’t yet have a clear understanding of how different biological factors, such as hormonal fluctuations, including menstrual cycle and menopause, may impact the psychedelic experience. However, it does seem that psychedelics may have an impact on menstrual function,” she said.
Gukasyan co-authored a recent study published in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs on the impact of psychedelics on menstrual function. While the study looked at only three women ranging from 27 to 34 years of age, the results were significant enough to warrant more research.
“Although phenomena related to menstrual and reproductive function have been largely overlooked in the psychedelic literature to date, these effects may have therapeutic utility and warrant further study,” the study concluded.
In the field of psychedelic medicine, where compounds are being extensively studied scientifically for the first time, the underrepresentation of women in clinical trials could have serious consequences for the safety and efficacy of these treatments. Without data on the experiences of women, it is impossible to accurately assess the potential benefits and risks of these new medicines before bringing them to the masses.
By working to increase the representation of women in clinical trials for psychedelics, we can help to ensure that these treatments are developed in a way that is safe, effective, and equitable for all.
Thankfully, many psychedelic clinical trials are moving forward with this ethos. For example, two-thirds of the participants in the MAPS’ Phase 2 and 3 clinical trials of MDMA therapy for the treatment of PTSD were women.
Rick Doblin, the founder of MAPS, said, “When it comes to PTSD, we talk a lot about the veterans, but it’s mostly women who are sexually abused or have childhood traumas that have PTSD. I think that the media attention on veterans sort of distracts people from the understanding that it’s mostly women that we are treating. Two-thirds of the people in the [MAPS] study are women.”
So far, MAPS has administered MDMA to approximately 1,700 human subjects. Their recent Phase 3 clinical trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD also included an assessment of gender identity beyond the binary male and female gender assigned at birth – an important distinction since transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people experience PTSD at higher rates than the general population.
Other groups conducting clinical trials actively seeking women participants include Psycheceutical Bioscience, which has partnered with clinical research organization (CRO) iNGENū in Australia to conduct its Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials of a topical ketamine cream to treat PTSD.
“iNGENū takes gender balance in clinical trials very seriously and the diversity of participants is one of the key metrics we strive to achieve. We naturally want our clinical trials to recruit participants who closely match the intended population who will benefit from the drug when it is eventually approved,” said iNGENū CEO Dr. Sud Agarwal.
While the inclusion of women in psychedelic clinical trials is critical to the success of this new paradigm in medicine, there’s also a whole realm of largely untapped research on the benefits of psychedelics for health conditions experienced only by women.
Felicity Pharma is a psychedelic biotech company focused on women’s health that’s secured a proprietary psilocybin-based drug for premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD), a very severe form of premenstrual syndrome that affects up to 10 percent of women globally as well as postpartum depression.
Olivia Mannix, Felicity Pharma co-founder and CEO, said “We are passionate about transforming women’s healthcare. Women have been traditionally excluded from clinical trials because of hormonal fluctuations and general biological makeup. We are making a stand to develop female-focused therapeutics, where women will be the only patients used in trials.”
In this episode, Kyle interviews C.J. Spotswood, PMHNP-BC: author and board-certified psychiatric-mental health nurse practitioner currently enrolled in CIIS’ Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies and Research certificate program.
Spotswood has worked with Psychedelics Today, teaching masterclasses for our Vital and Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists courses, but this is his first appearance on the show. His first book, The Microdosing Guidebook: A Step-by-Step Manual to Improve Your Physical and Mental Health through Psychedelic Medicine came out last year, and we’re giving away three signed copies (US and Canada only). Click here to enter!
He talks about his introduction to psychedelics and his first patient immediately asking him about microdosing; why he changed his mind on microdosing and why he wrote his book; microdosing studies he’s most excited about; the terms: treatment-resistant depression, risk reduction, and flight nurses; Irving Kirsch’s work uncovering the bad science of research studies; the need for physicians to know enough about psychedelics to be able to meet their patients where they are; the importance of group work; and how, while they’re already so well-versed in caring for patients, using nurses to their full licensure could be the answer to the quickly growing psychedelics and scalability problem.
“When you look at the early research into the 50s in the 60s; they were doing microdosing research, they just didn’t have a title for it. They thought they were using placebo levels but they were actually looking for threshold levels; things like that. Really, it was what by today’s standards [would be an] amount that we would consider as a microdose.”
“I don’t like the term [treatment-resistant depression] when we use that because if you’re using [it] when you’re looking at the standard medications like SSRIs [or] SNRIs, they’re basically all the same. …So when you say that someone’s ‘treatment-resistant’ for three medications, four medications that are all basically working the same pathways and in the same amount; is that truly treatment-resistant, or are we just trying the same thing with just different medications, whereas doing microdosing is a different pathway [and] is a different approach?”
“My first patient I ever saw as a new clinician, like, literally my first patient: I come in and I’m starting to talk to them for the first interview and I got to the point and I’m asking them: ‘Where are we going, what do you need?’ and they said to me, ‘Do you know anything about microdosing?’ …I said to them, I go, ‘Yeah, I know a little bit.’ …So I asked her what she knew, and she knew quite a bit. And she goes, ‘What do you know?’ and I kind of just said to her: ‘I don’t really know how to put this, [but I] wrote a book on it and it’s going to be coming out next year.’ …It reinforced my feeling [that] I’m doing the right thing: this career suicide I’ve thought of, going into working with psychedelics and being open and talking about it, hearing my first patients talking about it – it’s got to be serendipity.”
Wmtw.com: ‘Zombie’ drug Spice worsening Maine epidemic, officials say
The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide: Safe, Therapeutic, and Sacred Journeys, by James Fadiman, Ph.D.
Psychedelics Today: Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain
Pubmed: Low doses of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) increase reward-related brain activity
Nature.com: The Discovery of Serotonin and its Role in Neuroscience
Psychedelics Today: PTSF89 – A Macro Dive Into Microdosing
Emperor’s New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth, by Irving Kirsch, Ph.D.
Maps.org: Notes From a Psychedelic Research Nurse
In this episode, Joe interviews New York Times best-selling author, pioneer in the field of integrative medicine, and overall legend in the health and wellness space: Andrew Weil, M.D.
As the author of 15 books on health and wellbeing and a regular in the media, you’re probably familiar with Weil and some of his work, but you may not know of his more psychedelic connections: a long history of experimentation, leading Paul Stamets in the direction of functional mushrooms, co-writing one of the first papers about the Sonoran Desert toad and 5-MeO-DMT with Wade Davis, and being a strong advocate for psychedelics being the spark that could spur a global change in consciousness.
He talks about the connection between true osteopathy and integrative medicine; why the traditional Chinese medicine approach to mushrooms made so much sense to him; academia’s lost interest in pharmacognosy; how psychedelics may help people with autoimmune diseases; turmeric (he largely popularized it as an anti-inflammatory supplement); matcha; why we should be studying the placebo effect much more than we are; humanity’s innate drive to experience altered states of consciousness; and why a big part of the psychedelic revolution is so many people starting to believe in panpsychism.
We’re pumped to finally have him on the podcast, and we’re even more excited that he’s spreading the gospel of psychedelics to a health and wellness crowd who may still be a bit apprehensive about something they were taught to fear.
“I’m tremendously interested in [psychedelics’] potential at the moment for therapeutic use and ceremonial use, and actually, if I think about it, I would say I’m really interested in the possibility that they can save the world. I don’t see many other things out there that can do that.”
“I don’t know anything else that is so readily available and that, with at least some attention to how you do them, has such a potential to change how people interpret their perceptions and interpret their experience of the world around them. I’ve seen just such dramatic changes in people and in myself as a result of psychedelic experience. …My first book, The Natural Mind, that was published in 1972, said that only a global change in consciousness could really transform our world, and I think that the psychedelic revolution has the potential to do that.”
“I think the placebo response is the meat of medicine. That’s what you want to try to make happen. It’s pure healing response from within, mediated by the mind and unmixed up with the direct effects of treatment. …The commonest way I hear that word used is things like, ‘How do you know that’s not just the placebo response?’ or ‘We have to rule out the placebo response.’ I mean, we should be ruling it in. You want to make it happen more of the time.”
“Human beings have an innate drive to experience altered states of consciousness, not necessarily through the use of drugs (although drugs are a very convenient way to do it). One of the examples I gave was of kids learning to spin until they get dizzy and fall over and the world changed, and that’s universal as far as I can tell, in all cultures. So I got a lot of crap from people for saying that there was an innate drive toward altered states of consciousness, but I absolutely believe that, and I think that a part of the drug problem in our culture has been our failure to acknowledge that and teach people safe and better ways of satisfying it.”
The Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine
Dr. Weil’s Matcha (use code: PsyToday for a generous discount!)
Wikipedia.org: Robert C. Fulford
Psychedelics Today: Wade Davis – Ayahuasca and a New Hope for Colombia
Psychedelics Today: Could the Sonoran Desert Toad Cure Narcissism?
Pubmed: Bufo alvarius: a potent hallucinogen of animal origin
Psychedelics Today: Dr. Malin Vedøy Uthaug – Ayahuasca and 5-MeO-DMT Research
Psychedelicreview.com: Psychedelics as Anti-Inflammatory Agents
Usnews.com: Is the Green Mediterranean Diet Healthier Than Regular Mediterranean?
Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org
Vogue.com: Can Psilocybin Challenge Our Pharmaceutical Dependence?
From Chocolate to Morphine: Everything You Need to Know about Mind-Altering Drugs, by Andrew Weil
Psychedelics Today: PT236 – Drugs: Honesty, Responsibility, and Logic, featuring: Dr. Carl Hart
Psychedelics Today: Psychedelics, Philosophy, Transhumanism, and Peter Sjöstedt-H
Exploringyourmind.com: Panpsychism: A Fantastic Theory About Consciousness
In this week’s episode, Joe and David team up for the first time to discuss three articles: Chacruna’s breakdown of the study, “Ceremonial Ayahuasca in Amazonian Retreats – Mental Health and Epigenetic Outcomes From a Six-Month Naturalistic Study,” Double Blind’s “Why the ‘Psychedelic Renaissance’ is just Colonialism by Another Name,” and the results from the trial of a 20-year old woman who died at the 2017 Lightning in a Bottle music festival – where the jury found Do Lab, Inc., RGX Medical, and RGX Founder Richard Gottlieb to hold 75% of the liability in her death, with MAPS holding 25%.
In discussing these articles, much is covered: methylation and genetic memory; addiction; gut biome; cesarian births; how much inequality is built into the “psychedelic renaissance” due to it primarily evolving out of inherently unequal Western societal paradigms; permaculture; new ways to be together; Burning Man; the concept of the nuclear family; the power in working with your hands; creativity; harm reduction and the lack of readily available drug testing kits; and more.
Psychedelics Today: PT295 – Sidarta Ribeiro – Dreams, LSD, and Biopiracy
The Way of the Psychonaut Vol. 1: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys, by Stanislav Grof, MD, Ph.D.
Doubleblindmag.com: Why the “Psychedelic Renaissance” is just Colonialism by Another Name
Wikipedia.org: Nagoya Protocol
How Soon Is Now?: A Handbook for Global Change, by Daniel Pinchbeck
Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work, by Matthew B. Crawford
Maps.org: Jury Finds in Favor of Plaintiffs in Trial on Harm Reduction and Medical Responsibility
Lucid.news: MAPS Found Liable in Wrongful Death Lawsuit
MAPS’ Settlement-and-Release-Agreement-5.27.21
In part 2 of the article, “Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain,” the disappearance of Court’s chronic pain leads to a new understanding of cortical remapping, mirror box therapy, and how science can treat phantom limb pain.
I had years of experience in cold water training from my Aikido career, but as my depression had increasingly grown worse, I developed a severe cold intolerance. It had become painful to stand under the shower, with my scalp almost spasming in contraction, when I used to be able to stand in late winter melt-water waterfalls and rivers with ease. But post-dosing, my cold tolerance came roaring back; allowing me to stand under a cold shower for minutes at a time with no numbness and no pain – it was almost like it was happening to someone else or there was a micro-force field on the surface of my skin. I found myself having to leave the shower because I just had other things to do. Cold water tolerance is a gold-standard for measuring pain response in clinical trials, and in fact, later that year, the Department of Psychopharmacology at Maastricht University, sponsored by the Beckley Foundation, conducted the first LSD and pain study in nearly 50 years, showing that low-dose LSD significantly increased cold water tolerance without interfering with day-to-day activities.
I had been known for my mobility and flexibility throughout my career and my ability to train others to achieve the same results, but mine had been compromised for a good while at this point. But the day after my session, I was able to resume positions that I hadn’t been able to comfortably acquire in months, if not years. Movement now felt smooth and effortless once again, and I swear there was even improvement in the tissue quality in areas that had become “crunchy.”
There was also a significant change in my inflammatory baseline. Depression is seen as a disorder that also includes fairly significant neurological inflammation and is often bi-directional with chronic pain, but many of the same receptors that psilocybin operates on are also contained within the gastrointestinal tract, and mine had altered sensation for a month afterward. I believe my systemic inflammation significantly improved during that period because within three months of my dosing, I reacquired personal training records that had become elusive, and by summer, I passed those PRs and set new ones. I also felt incredibly less “puffy.” Accidentally banging into something didn’t hurt anymore and persistent joint aches and lack of motor activation disappeared. There were additional improvements in neurological issues that will be described in a future case study, but that was just as immediate and impactful.
Within the training and recovery world, patients and trainees can loosely be categorized as super, normal, non, and negative responders. I had stopped being responsive to both training and rehabilitation efforts at the peak of my depression, and was entering negative-responder territory, which was severely distressing. Fascinatingly, I now seem to be trending somewhere between a normal and high responder. I began proclaiming to the researchers at NYU that psychedelics were going to completely change chronic pain treatment within five years. And I also had a secret; the day after my dosing session, I had what’s referred to as a huge download: I realized that if you could consider things like depression, PTSD, and severe anxiety to be nociplastic outputs of the Central Nervous System (CNS) that causes iterative rumination (a.k.a. looping maladaptive outputs), that was no different from the looping maladaptive outputs that characterize chronic pain – the neurology of which I had been studying for years at that point. Due to the extreme visual qualities of the psychedelic experience and the rapidity of my own remission, I saw, in a flash, that since psilocybin was an impact booster for neuroplasticity, it would enhance the impact of mirror box therapy for phantom limb pain or likely any other neuromodulation.
“Remapping” is the term describing the tactic of using visual or other sensory receptor inputs to modify and change nociplastic or noxious/painful outputs of the brain. As this is part of the Z-Health process, I had been introduced to the concept of mirror box therapy years earlier as part of my certifications, but I thought I had come up with a whole new approach and kept it to myself, barely hinting at what I believed I had uncovered. But, since NYC was locked down and I was unable to work, I had nothing to do but go online and research what had happened to me.
Within two weeks or so, I found an old photocopied English abstract from a 1962 study in Japan, by Kuromaru, et al., using low-dose LSD to treat phantom-limb pain with 50% of its participants going into instant remission by the end of their session, and the authors pointedly declaring that stacking the LSD with movement had a far stronger impact on resolving both phantom limb pain and phantom limb syndrome. Stacking inputs is a common practice within the neuromodulation world for pain treatment, often coupling a weaker input with a stronger one, and I realized that this was what had clearly happened to me while I was in my post-dosing neuroplastic window. It finally felt like I was getting traction again; that drills and exercises were once again effective, and crucially, maintaining their own momentum. I didn’t have to be hypervigilant anymore in my daily routine for these drills to become “sticky.” I also realized that the Kuromaru study had, in fact, been released earlier than the Kast study from 1964 investigating the analgesic properties of LSD for terminal cancer and other painful conditions, which is frequently and incorrectly cited as the first psychedelic pain study. I became aware of other previous psychedelic pain studies, as well as recent ones like Dr. Charles Nichols’ work on the anti-inflammatory properties of psychedelics, and studies involving Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris’ REBUS model and cortical reorganization, which is what happens when a stimulus results in the creation of a new cortical map (essentially a vertical column in the brain cortex consisting of neurons performing specific processes).
Both of these discoveries are crucial because cortical reorganization (or remapping) and inflammation are key drivers of chronic pain. Conditions like depression and anxiety are characterized by rigid, fixed beliefs or frameworks where the same negative thought loop keeps reoccurring repeatedly, with no amount of incoming contrary information able to alter that belief. It becomes what’s known as a “strong prior” in neurology, becoming a top-down driven process in the CNS, actively suppressing any bottom-up sensory input error correction. The same mechanisms of action occur with chronic pain, where, despite the healing or resolution of an injury; a rigid, fixed pain signal is continually being sent out by the brain as a maladaptive response of the CNS’ protective suite. These are referred to as nociplastic or noxious neurological conditions. The same is true for multiple chronic pain conditions where inflammation causes maladaptive signaling and perceptions, leading to negative structural or nociplastic changes in the peripheral and central nervous system. In psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, a non-rigid, chaotic state is induced, which allows the cortical landscape to reorganize into a more efficient and positive state.
As everything was becoming more and more clear – in what had to have been one of my most transpersonal moments after my dosing session – a landmark review paper was published. “Chronic pain and psychedelics: a review and proposed mechanism of action” by Dr. Joel Castellanos, et al. was released from the Psychedelics Health and Research Initiative (PHRI) at UC San Diego in May of 2020, barely two months after my dosing session and pain revelation. It was an amazing overview of all the possible mechanisms of action that could be at play in psychedelics being an effective analgesic and resolver of chronic pain, but the most revelatory moment was when I found, buried within the heart of the paper, a link to the case study that had set PHRI in motion. It was written by the world-renown neuroscientist VS Ramachandran, the clinical faculty at PHRI, and by its case subject, Albert Lin, who had used high-dose psilocybin coupled with mirror box therapy to put his intractable phantom limb pain into full remission.
I sat speechless for at least five minutes, shaking my head in a feeling of wonder and disbelief, as if the universe itself had just delivered this paper to me. Other than my remission and the pandemic, I had thought of nothing else but the application of how these two approaches could be combined. Of course someone else had invented it well before me; of course they had. I knew that resourceful, capable people had been working on this for a while, and chronic pain is a singular motivator, but it was still astonishing to see my vision so vividly applied and executed.
I had learned in 2015 that cluster headaches had been effectively treated with psilocybin for 25 years, and of mirror box therapy a few years before that. I had even blogged about it because people in the rehab and training communities thought that my using visual inputs to treat pain was so weird they called it “voodoo.” But there is a neural hierarchy, and many pain and performance conditions in the body actually have higher-order components within the visual and vestibular systems. That’s often why, no matter how much manual/physio therapy one does, it is often a downstream compensation within the body in order to reconcile perceptual discrepancies between the visual and vestibular system. The visual system lets you assess the surrounding environment and predict any threats that exist within it, and the vestibular system helps you orient within that space, keeping your body in balance so that you might be able to execute any motor actions in response to any perceived threats. If your eyes are telling you the horizon is 5° tilted to the left, but your vestibular system, a.k.a. your inner ear, is telling you that it’s 5° to the right, your body will compensate so that those discrepancies are reconciled and you maintain a stable, level “sight picture” – your viewscreen of the world. Having an unstable sight picture makes for poor predictions; in other words, in an evolutionary survival context, having a “shaky cam” is not so great for avoiding saber-tooth tigers.
So, those downstream bodily compensations that keep your viewscreen steady are creating distortions and possible maladaptations in the structure of your body, and are now being cemented due to repeated compensatory use. The nervous system will protectively reduce motor output and increase pain perception as a response, to slow you down in order to avoid potential injury and survive another day. Ultimately, the body has evolved towards survival, not performance. And pain is an alarm/action signal designed to keep you alive.
When we look at phantom limb pain, what we’re seeing is the phenomenon known as deafferentation: the loss of afferent or ascending inputs from the peripheral nervous system up to the brain. No limb equals no signal, and the loss of signal is very dangerous within an evolutionary context because limb loss due to injury or infection will mean, at the least, loss of sensation and loss of coordination for motor outputs/muscle contraction/movement, meaning a lost ability to gather food or to avoid threats. Or worse, it could mean signaling that you’re going to bleed to death in a matter of minutes.
Multiple pain conditions could be considered sub-clinical deafferentation: peripheral neuropathy from conditions like diabetes or shingles, or different types of phantom limb pain where the limb is still present but the nerves are so injured that they no longer transmit afferent signals – such as we see in cancer, stroke, or crush injuries. That loss of signal gets hardwired into the cortical representations of that limb, and never gets a counterbalancing signal, so the CNS registers it as an ongoing sense of threat. That creates a huge alarm signal in the form of pain perception.
What mirror box therapy does is replace that loss of signal with the image of an intact limb, generating input that dampens down that pain signal. And when you touch the remaining limb (which is generating normal signals) while seeing it reflected in the mirror in place of the missing or injured limb, it can immediately cause the pain signals to cease; so powerful are visual representations within the somatosensory cortex of the brain. Essentially, through seeing a limb appear where it wasn’t before, one tricks their own brain into thinking it’s still there, and the pain signals from the CNS for that lost limb stop being sent.
Mirror box therapy is often not enduring though; only being effective for as long as you do it, and that was the case with Albert Lin. It often takes a lot of repetition for it to become “sticky.” Neuroplasticity requires novelty and intensity, usually in the volume of work. But that can be hard to achieve, thus the issue in pain treatment that I had experienced directly as a practitioner and as a patient; everything works, nothing lasts. When it was suggested to Lin that psilocybin had strong neuroplastic properties that could impact cortical reorganization for chronic pain, he tried it a few times, taking a high dose of psilocybin mushrooms, which gave him approximately 3-12 pain-free hours, depending on the dose. But then the pain came back with a vengeance. Within the cluster headache communities, this is known as a “slapback effect” and can actually be a sign that the nervous system is adjusting and more permanent relief could be imminent.
Then, Lin’s wife suggested combining (stacking) mirror box therapy with psilocybin. He went out to the desert with a closet door mirror, and while under high-dose psilocybin, he would stare at the reflected image of his remaining leg and then at the space where his amputated limb had been, while repeating the phrase “You are safe. You are totally safe,” for approximately 45 minutes. This met all the conditions for driving neuroplasticity: novelty, intensity, and volume of work with deep assurance of emotional and physical security. Amazingly, it worked, immediately putting him into remission for the next 20+ hours, with 50% reduced pain for nearly two weeks. He shared his success with the lab, and experiments with different types of visual neuromodulation while under high-dose psilocybin quickly began.
Lin was dealing with a persistent pain in his phantom foot that felt as if a railroad spike was being driven through, suspected to be a sensory remnant from when the bones in his foot were surgically pinned together as they attempted to save it before ultimately deciding to amputate. An artificial foot and a pen with a telescoping pointer was introduced, and they covered the space between his stump and the plastic foot with a blanket, then “pulled” the telescoping pen out of his foot at the site of pain, mimicking the action of removing pins (or really, removing the pain). He felt instant relief.
Another experiment involved a novelty Halloween-store “flame” (bright light with orange and yellow fabric and a fan underneath that makes it flutter). Lin chuckled when he saw it, but when they brought it near his representational foot, he actually felt heat from the “flame,” which was intensely relieving.
Through these experiments and continued work, Lin went into full remission after five weeks, and has been free of chronic pain ever since. It’s worth noting that he had a top research team working with him that was extremely creative in creating novel inputs, and he is known for being an almost Michelangelo-type character, with a high degree of inventiveness and novelty-seeking, allowing him to discover unique, lateral approaches to solve problems. And, it bears repeating: chronic pain is a singular motivational force.
Additionally, post-dosing, cortical reorganization was happening during a psychedelically-induced “critical period reopening”; when the brain has a metaplastic quality that allows it to reset to an almost-new condition. As described in the work by Dr. Gül Dölen, critical period reopening happens during crucial phases of nervous system development in childhood, such as when toddlers can learn multiple languages without an accent or when adolescents are uniquely sensitive to social cues from peer pressure (and/or support), allowing them to quickly adopt different social customs and frameworks. This reopening is also seen post-stroke, when there is a limited window for rehabilitating from brain injury, so this likely applies very well here with chronic pain. We know that veteran groups like the Heroic Hearts Project, VETS (Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions), and The Mission Within, who are employing psychedelics for treatment, are having striking results both in recovery from combat-induced PTSD as well as traumatic brain injury – typically seen as treatment-resistant conditions.
If there’s anything I would like you to understand after reading this article, it’s that:
We don’t have to prove that psychedelics are effective for treating chronic pain; we have to establish that this has already been proven.
Psychedelics are not an instant cure for chronic pain, but they are strong impact boosters for neuroplasticity and can make physiotherapy/neuromodulation become “sticky,” creating enduring relief.
We know that many mechanisms that create psychiatric conditions that are responsive to psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy are extremely similar in nature to the same mechanisms that generate chronic pain; it’s just that psychiatric conditions have gotten far more focus in psychedelics, perhaps because the non-ordinary states of consciousness they are known for producing seem more applicable to conditions more traditionally thought to be related to the mind.
But both arise out of the central nervous system and are rigid, fixed states of cognition and perception. With depression, you have negative outlooks and self-perceptions: “Nothing I do makes a difference,” “People are just saying that to make me feel better,” etc. At one point, these thoughts may have helped you to cope with a traumatic incident, environment, or upbringing, but now they’re maladaptive, weigh you down, are out of step with reality, and have actually caused (or are the result of) structural deficits in the neurology of your brain. It’s the same with chronic pain: when there is an acute injury or even the possibility of one, pain is part of the protective suite of responses from our nervous systems to prevent further injury and allow healing to occur – an alarm bell/action signal to change a behavior. But it can be so overprotective that it gets embedded and cemented with movement, emotions, and surrounding environments long after all tissue healing is done – getting triggered by seemingly innocuous events, maladaptively hardwired into your neurology in a negative loop of conditioned responses.
This is exactly what happened to me when I went through NYU’s psilocybin trial; an adverse financial and work environment, repeated (and under-recovered) musculoskeletal stress/injuries, and (likely) sub-clinical post-concussion syndrome and PTSD, all topped off by the sudden death of a close friend releasing long-suppressed grief and leading to a significant nociplastic output in the form of increasingly treatment-resistant depression and moderate chronic pain. Many recovery efforts were attempted using every modality I knew, but there was too much of a deficit to overcome – until psilocybin was introduced to the mix. That life-changing experience allowed for metaplasticity, cortical reorganization, descending inhibition, and anti-inflammatory properties to take root, giving all post-dosing interventions the opportunity to gain traction and for me to flourish once again.
Future articles in this “Pain and Psychedelics” series will focus on old assumptions vs. new science, additional case studies, the suspected mechanisms of action behind the interaction between psychedelics and pain, and best practices and safety concerns for working with psychedelics to alleviate chronic pain.
An NYU psilocybin depression study participant discovers an unforeseen application for psychedelics: the treatment of chronic pain. Part 1 of the series: Psychedelics and Chronic Pain.
In the fall of 2020, I was living a pretty successful and happy life – on paper. I had co-founded a very popular, leading-edge CrossFit gym in NYC; one of the first in the world. I held multiple advanced certifications in applied neurophysiology through Z-Health, helping clients with challenging pain and performance issues. As an early adopter of kettlebell training, I became a nationally top-reviewed instructor and trained Team 6 Navy SEALs, astronauts, pro athletes, wounded veterans, and members of the FBI, NYPD, NYFD, and ROTC. I was featured in Men’s Fitness, the NY Times Sunday Routine, and USA Today. I had 30 years in the pain & performance field, training and teaching at a high level, and was becoming widely known for helping people with difficult mobility problems or chronic pain, using unique methods from the leading edge of neurological rehabilitation. On top of all of that, I was 17 years sober.
However, not all that glitters is gold. A now ex-business partner was committing a Ponzi scheme to the tune of millions, and his case followed him like a shadow, turning my life’s passion into an emotionally and financially toxic nightmare that economically devastated my family. My best friend, Kirk MacLeod, who I had completely rehabbed from chemo & cancer surgery, died six months after being declared in remission. My first son had developed undiagnosed GERD and couldn’t sleep more than an hour and half at a time, which meant my wife and I slept even less.
Unsurprisingly, my episodic depression returned after more than a decade and a half, and I was now increasingly treatment-resistant; unresponsive to psychiatric drugs that had previously worked. All my pain neuromodulation interventions that worked on my clients no longer worked for me, and I had developed chronic pain myself.
I share all my background here to demonstrate that I was not under-resourced in either knowledge, networks, or diversity of approaches, practice, or experiences. I poured over all my certification materials looking for anything I had missed, but had fallen into an increasingly deeper recovery hole; everything worked, but nothing lasted. I was hitting a new bottom in my life, deeply sinking into the midst of an increasingly treatment-resistant depression episode that had likely been ongoing for five years.
But then I became aware of ongoing studies on psilocybin for depression happening locally in NYC. I had experienced a few high-dose psychedelic sessions nearly a quarter century ago and had been an avid Terence McKenna fan (even speaking with him directly after a lecture in Seattle), but I had never taken psychedelics therapeutically, and my recreational interest had effectively vanished once I became sober from alcohol. Intrigued, I connected with the local clinical research coordinator, Leila Ghazhal, at the NYU for the clinical trial of Psilocybin for Major Depressive Disorder study (sponsored by the Usona Institute), and took all the online and over-the-phone assessments, passing them easily. The primary investigator (PI) on my study was Dr. Stephen Ross, who had been leading psychedelic research at NYU for more than a decade. Amazingly, I made it into the trial within a month and a half, learning that I’d actually beat out 8500 other applicants for just 100 spots nationwide.
When I first entered the trial, I was in a state of denial about how severe my depression was, but once I took the MADRS assessment, there was no avoiding that I had moderate to severe depression with suicidal ideation.
I remember a specific moment very well during this process, when I was finally cleared to enter the study and the study coordinator was speaking with me about the results of my assessment and my upcoming participation. I asked what would happen if I didn’t receive psilocybin during my session, and he reassured me that they would not just drop me off in the middle of the ocean to dog paddle – that there were other interventions and studies available and they would be sure to find me something, but there was a good chance I would receive psilocybin and hopefully get some good results. At this point, my mask cracked a little bit and some protective cynicism came out, and I quipped with a bit of a shrug: “Well, we’ll see.” I hadn’t meant it to be dismissive or sarcastic but it came out that way, and the conversational atmosphere rapidly shifted. He looked right at me and suddenly he wasn’t the primary investigator anymore, lost in the myriad details and logistics of a very involved study. Now he was the deeply experienced clinician and therapist, and, having heard something within the tone of my voice, dropped all the way in and asked softly: “What’s going on behind that, Court?” Suddenly, all the masking dropped and there was no more place to hide because I was so, so tired at this point, and had been waiting for this moment. In and out of therapy for years, dozens if not 100 self-help books, so many modalities, so many somatic systems, and here I was with a chance for something new to help me. When I realized why there was cynicism behind my statement, my voice cracked, I started crying, and I answered him: “Trying not to hope.”
The one glimmer of hope I did have was reading a 2018 paper by lead author Calvin Ly describing psychedelics’ neuroplastic activity in the prefrontal cortex. As someone who had studied the neurology of pain for years, this was revelatory. Many pain conditions are, in fact, nociplastic or noxious conditions arising out of the central nervous system (CNS); there’s no more injury or damage if there ever was, but your CNS is still continuing to put out a maladaptive alarm signal that is perceived as pain. So learning that psilocybin was creating actual structural change within my cortex – not “just” psychological change – was completely astonishing.
My dosing date was on March 5, 2020, and I remember looking down at the capsule sitting in the cup, saying to it: “I really hope that’s you.” I was terrified inwardly that I would receive the placebo, that I wouldn’t respond to the psilocybin, or that it would only work just a little bit, only for its effects to slowly fade. But within half an hour, there was no denying that I had received psilocybin, and I earnestly pursued all the procedures everyone on my care team at NYU had worked with me on for weeks in preparation for this day.
I was genuinely shocked at the sheer volume of psychological material from my childhood and early adulthood that came up. I had profound transpersonal experiences and healing, revisiting instances that were pivotal in my childhood. I had an encounter with the first woman I had ever loved, who had committed suicide three years after we had broken up. Her death had caused a profound grief in me that drove my drinking for a decade after. I thought I had released the majority of my grief around her once I got sober, but clearly, there was so much more to heal that had been deeply suppressed as I tried to move forward with my life.
The biggest shock of all, though, was waiting for me at the end of the day when one of my facilitators casually pitched a seemingly routine question while closely watching me out of the corner of his eye: “So, how do you feel?” Without thinking, I reflexively replied, “Good,” but then, just as reflexively, scanned more deeply inward, and in a sudden rush, realized my depression was completely gone – not just better, but vanquished, exclaiming: “Good! That fast? Are you fucking kidding me, that fast? Is it gone already?”
It felt as if a huge mass had been surgically removed from me or as if an entire continent within my interior was now suddenly revealed. No matter how many times you read the word “remission” and the percentages behind it in scientific studies, very little will prepare you for the shocking reality of it. The contrast between before and after was profound. All of the iterative rumination was gone, and it took no effort for that to happen. And it only seemed to strengthen as the days passed. Miraculously, all suicidal thoughts ceased on that day and never returned.
Shockingly, only ten days after my dosing session, NYC went into a complete pandemic lockdown, my entire industry closed, and my two young boys were now at home with me 24/7, tele-learning. I cannot imagine what 2020 would have been like for me if I had received the placebo. It’s almost unimaginable.
But here is where the story takes an even more profound and impactful turn. During the session, my leg started intensely tremoring/spasming. I had been evaluated for musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction that I had acquired through a host of injuries over the years of my performance career, and in fact, had just been in the doctor’s office a few months earlier trying to determine if I had arthritis or something worse. But right there in the session room, I started having a neurological revision, with my muscles and nerves in my right inner thigh firing in an effort to recalibrate the sensory and motor inputs and outputs in that part of my kinetic chain. It was almost like a self-generated TENS unit (Transdermal Electromagnetic Nerve Stimulation, used to generate muscle contractions and neuromodulate pain signals with micro-electric pulses) getting my leg back online by creating intense motor activity in the muscles of my thigh.
I’ve since spoken with spinal injury survivor Jim Harris and read a case series from UC San Diego’s Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative (PHRI) published in PAIN Journal where the exact same thing occurred to them under the effect of psilocybin with the same positive results, but at the time, the facilitators were concerned enough to ask the primary investigator to come and evaluate me during the session. I had to explain to him, somewhat hilariously as I was going into my peak, that, in fact, the tremors felt intensely good. I’m grateful that he let them continue because it has made all the difference.
While I partially understood what had happened, I was understandably beyond eager to learn more, and to see where else this realization could take me: Why did this work so well? Has our understanding of chronic pain been wrong? And if psychedelics are the answer, what does treating chronic pain with psychedelics actually look like?
This is part 1 of a 2-part piece and part of a larger series on chronic pain and psychedelics. In part 2, I will dive into the research around remapping and mirror box therapy, and why my psychedelic experience seemed to be so effective.
Future articles will focus on: What is pain and what causes chronic pain, old assumptions vs. new science, the suspected mechanisms of action behind the interaction between psychedelics and pain, and best practices and safety concerns for working with psychedelics to alleviate chronic pain.
In this episode, David interviews Dr. Ben Medrano: Co-Medical Director with Nue Life, board-certified psychiatrist specializing in integrative psychiatry, and former Senior Vice President and US Medical Director of Field Trip Health.
He discusses his path to Nue Life; from growing up around mental illness, to the rave scene, to Buddhism, to his years working for the underserved in an East Harlem Assertive Community Treatment, and his biggest takeaway from that time: that the healthcare system he knew was not truly helping people. He talks about stigmatization (of some modalities like electro-shock treatment, of psychedelics, and of ketamine – which seems to be stigmatized even within the psychedelic space); his concerns that the at-home ketamine model is at risk as we make our way out of the pandemic; and how at-home ketamine can drastically reduce the cost of treatment.
Medrano tells a great story of a patient who saw incredible improvements through ketamine, and discusses some Nue Life highlights: their just-released 664 participant-study in Frontiers Psychiatry showing the safety of at-home ketamine (and that at-home is just as effective as other routes of administration); Nue Care, their model for aftercare using digital phenotyping, goals, and a scoring system (which he believes could be the new model for integrative psychiatry); and their Nue Network, which could be a solution for better education on ketamine and for granting access for patients through prescribers who typically don’t understand much about its efficacy.
“All the different interests, personalities, visions, [and] goals that are in this sort of circus of psychedelic commercialism is very necessary to understand. And for me, I think the biggest takeaway is that there is one thing that binds everybody who’s involved, and that is hope, really. I think there’s a lot of hope in this sphere.”
“The hazards of a benzodiazepine are well known, and to some extent, one might even argue that with some of these DEA-regulated substances that we do ship at home; that if we’re going to say that we need to subject ketamine to a higher standard, then we need to do it for the rest of these DEA-regulated substances, because they have very hazardous risk profiles. …I can’t help but think that there’s a little bit of …stigma [around] what it is that we’re doing.”
[On an at-home ketamine patient’s success]: “He is able to get out of the house every day and enjoy the sunshine, and the way he views his trauma is at a level that I think all of us would aspire to: really, as something that has sort of made him into the man that he is today, with something really unique and powerful to offer as a human to others – rather than as a wound.”
Psychedelics Today: Free Webinar – NueLife: Empowering Patients with At-Home Ketamine Therapy
Wikipedia.org: Assertive community treatment
Legitscript.com: A Post-Pandemic Ryan Haight Act May Create Uncertainty for Telemedicine
Nue.life: Nue Life Publishes First Peer-Reviewed Study in Frontiers in Psychiatry
In this episode, Joe invites Court Wing to co-host, interviewing two members of UC San Diego’s Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative (PHRI): Joel Castellanos, MD (Associate Medical Director of PHRI and board-certified physical medicine and rehabilitation and pain medicine physician), and Timothy Furnish, MD (Medical Director of PHRI and Associate Clinical Professor of Anesthesiology and Pain Medicine).
As one of the early participants of a psilocybin-for-depression trial in NYC, Court Wing (of REMAP Therapeutics) discovered that immediately after the session, his chronic pain had miraculously gone away. He began researching how psychedelics could be used (with or without other therapies) to continue the alleviation of pain psychedelics had brought him. Through the Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative, Drs. Castellanos and Furnish are following that that same road, and are currently recruiting for a randomized controlled trial on psilocybin for phantom limb pain.
They talk about the relationship between the mind and chronic pain: how people confuse pain with the simple act of nerves firing, but how it’s so much more. And they discuss how pain can become part of one’s identity (and how the Default Mode Network could be contributing); how physical therapy is related to neuroplasticity; mirror box therapy; microdosing for chronic pain; the unusual nature of phantom limb pain; and where the mystical psychedelic experience may come into play. If this topic is as fascinating to you as it is to us, stay tuned – we will be featuring much more on chronic pain and psychedelics, including a blog series from Court Wing coming soon.
“One of the things that may be unique about or interesting about chronic pain is that the longer it goes on, the more people start seeing pain as a part of their identity and that Default Mode Network is probably playing a role in that. And it’s possible that something like psychedelics could open up the possibility of changing that internal story so that pain is no longer so much a part of one’s identity.” -Tim
“I think that people oftentimes confuse pain with simply nerves firing. …[But] there is this rich interplay between the way we think about pain, the way we perceive pain, and how we feel about it.” -Tim
“When you’re not really dealing with chronic or severe pain on a daily basis, it’s really hard to think about how life-changing that is or can be.” -Joel
“When we hear things like ‘It’s only just in your head,’ I don’t think people quite get [that] the head can be a scary place to be trapped sometimes.” -Court
PHRI.ucsd.edu: Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative at UC San Diego
Psychedelics Today: Court Wing – Pain and Its Relationship to the Mind
Pubmed: Chronic pain and psychedelics: a review and proposed mechanism of action
Sciencedirect.com: Mirror Visual Feedback Therapy. A Practical Approach
Psychologytoday.com: Catastrophizing
Physio-pedia.com: Kinesiophobia
Sinobiological.com: What is tumor necrosis factor (TNF)
Neuropathycure.org: Cryoneurolysis: A Freezing Cold Way To Treat Chronic Nerve Pain
Journals.lww.com: Microdosing psilocybin for chronic pain: a case series
Healthgrades.com: Diagnosing and Treating Anhedonia: Loss of Pleasure Explained
In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Steven Radowitz: Medical Director at Nushama, a wellness center in New York City primarily offering IV ketamine, with a strong focus on letting the experiencer explore their journey undisturbed.
Recorded in-person at Nushama’s flagship location just over a year after opening, Radowitz talks about his past and why he became interested in ketamine, the look and feel of Nushama, their process, and why they favor IV ketamine. He highlights his biggest takeaways from the year: the surprise in just how effective ketamine has been; the role of integration and what aftercare truly looks like; and the importance of learning to hold space and be a compassionate listener – that the doctor isn’t the healer and the psychedelic isn’t the magic bullet cure; instead, they are just tools that allow the patients to heal themselves.
He discusses how he sees psychedelics as a dimmer switch for the ego; how disorders are tools to deal with trauma; why he is reframing trauma as a learning experience; why he thinks ketamine will survive once psilocybin and MDMA are legal; why group work is so effective and powerful (and likely the new model for psychedelic therapy); and the importance of staying humble through all of this – humble to the power of the medicine and humble to the amazing capacity for people to heal and grow, simply by being allowed to explore their journey and be heard.
“I’m not a healer, and I often tell people [that] during their preparation, when I do my medical intake. I talk to them about that. I say, ‘I’m not here [to heal you], I’m here just giving you a tool. You’re the healer. All this stuff does is [that it] just takes away what’s blocking you from realizing that. It’s like a dimmer switch on the ego [and] on the mind.”
“I’m trying to move away from the word ‘trauma.’ It’s a difficult life event that’s there to teach us. It’s there for something. And with every one of those events; there’s a little jewel within it, but you have to go in there and go through it. And it’s just a cloud, just a myst, almost, that’s preventing you. Just push [through it] and hold space. As long as people are in a safe place to go there and journey there, then they’ll realize that it’s just an event. It’s just an experience, and you move on. That wisdom is: a memory without the emotion.”
“I think any type of journey work, any type of psychedelic work, I almost think you have to be called to it in a way. You shouldn’t be coerced, ever, into this. …I find that the ones that are really ready to do the work are finding us on our own.”
Could a nation defined by inflammation find relief in psychedelics?
It’s a verifiable truth that the United States of America may be considered a global leader, especially when it comes to the prevalence of mental and physical health disorders. In fact, of the nearly 330 million people in the population, millions to hundreds of millions of Americans suffer from chronic conditions like:
These sobering statistics beg the questions: How could a single nation of relatively modest size be home to such a vast selection of chronic diseases? And how could psychedelics be used to combat these conditions affecting so much of the population?
The answer begins with key lifestyle factors such as diet, exercise, tobacco use, or genetic predispositions, each of which contribute to the pathology of a given disease. For example, a 2010 study by the American Cancer Association found that 90% of Americans don’t meet their daily recommended requirement of vegetables, with 75% failing to eat even a single piece of fruit during an average day.
The American diet overall is egregiously devoid of whole grains, beans, fruits, vegetables, and nuts, with the US Department of Agriculture estimating they represent a mere 11% of the populous’ typical daily food intake. Despite this lack of prevalence, these unprocessed natural foods are otherwise rich in medicinal phytochemicals found to support the immune system and strengthen the body’s resistance to infections, as well as fight cancer and diabetes; diseases that are twice as prevalent in the US relative to the global average. Shockingly, the US also leads the world in obesity rates by nearly 400%, and is first in global consumption of sugar, outranking Germany by about 26% yearly.
Although diet quality is proven to significantly impact the likelihood of disease development, what Americans eat is only one contributing factor among many. Poor diet alone doesn’t explain the exceptional amount of chronic health conditions seen in the population. In fact, it’s estimated that over 60% of Americans suffer from at least one chronic health condition, 42% of the population are diagnosed with at least two, and up to 12% of Americans live with five or more chronic diseases.
To put those percentages in perspective, the 2020 election saw the highest voter turnout in 120 years, with the most votes for a single presidential candidate ever recorded in American history. Joe Biden reportedly received over 81 million popular votes, representing less than half of the 198 million Americans suffering from at least one chronic health condition, and only marginally more than half of the 139 million with at least two.
Despite the fact that they’re by no means a minority in the population, chronic diseases are found to disproportionately affect socioeconomic minorities in the United States of America and beyond. A recent study published in the journal, “Archives of Public Health,” used 20 years (1995-2015) of empirical data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to investigate the impact of education on health across the populations of 26 countries, including the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, France, Germany, and other founding nations that became members when OECD was created in 1960. This data, taken from millions of people in numerous countries across the globe over one fifth of a century, clearly demonstrated that higher educational attainment in adults positively correlates with longer lifespans, better health outcomes, increased Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita, and reduced infant mortality rates.
Put simply, the OECD data suggests that highly educated adults with ample finances generally live up to 12% longer (8-10 years), enjoy healthier lives, make more money, and are less likely to die at birth or of cancer, when directly compared to individuals of lower socioeconomic status (SES). Unsurprisingly, adults with higher GDP per capita also spent more money on healthcare and education over their lifetime, with college and university education found to positively influence life expectancy, child vaccination, and enrollment of children in education, as well as negatively impact infant mortality. Taken as a whole, the OECD data demonstrates an essential principle:
If appropriate education and adequate income significantly increase life expectancy, then access to quality schooling, sustainable employment, and equitable socioeconomic mobility are inherent to health care services.
However, even if we factor in education and employment as essential contributors to health, the fact remains that as of 2021, over 85 million Americans older than 25 had attained a Bachelor’s Degree or higher, and US unemployment was a mere 3.7% in August 2022. Since neither education nor employment are able to fully reconcile the disproportionately large number of Americans currently suffering from chronic health conditions, there must be a deeper underlying cause contributing to the pathology of diseases reportedly observed in the country’s citizens and resident aliens.
Compellingly, inflammation has been identified as a central contributor to all aforementioned chronic health conditions and beyond, and is implicated in over 60% of all human deaths around the globe. Some may already be familiar with acute inflammation in the form of localized pain, redness and swelling, usually in response to an injury or infection. Acute inflammation is typically a normal immune response during which the immune system is activated through the release of specific proteins, essentially called inflammatory markers. These markers then act as beacons to recruit immune cells, which subsequently migrate to the particular body part(s) in need of defense or repair.
In contrast, chronic inflammation is less apparent and far less immediate, but has insidiously dire consequences when left unchecked. Instead of causing localized pain or swelling, chronic inflammation causes systemic issues with immune cell signaling through excess “noise” created by high levels of inflammatory markers. Rather than being recruited to areas of the body most in need of healing, immune cells are drowned in an overwhelming number of biochemical beacons and ultimately disoriented. By disrupting this essential communication between immune cells, chronic inflammation prevents the appropriate direction of immune cells to critical issues needing attention, and may instead direct disproportionate amounts of immune activity to arbitrary areas – thus crippling the body’s capacity to effectively heal itself or prevent systemic disease.
The dysregulation of the immune system may ultimately induce the development of one or a combination of diseases, including autoimmune disorders like Crohn’s Disease, IBS, Alzheimer’s, arthritis, and diabetes, as well as various cancers and neurological disorders. Furthermore, children of mothers with chronic inflammatory conditions are demonstratively more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) and autism, especially when chronic prenatal exposure to maternal inflammatory markers is exacerbated by psychological or physiological stress.
Over the past 20 years, a growing body of research has further investigated the complex relationship between chronic inflammation, various mental and physical diseases, and socioeconomic status (SES). High levels of inflammation measured by markers in the blood of low SES patients were found to prospectively predict whether they would suffer from depression, heart disease, ischemic stroke, and/or mortality.
Furthermore, factors such as poverty, lack of social or educational resources, obesity, and diets rich in refined sugar were all closely associated with increased inflammatory markers, chronic diseases, and mortality rates. Stress derived from socio-political, financial, environmental (chemical, biological, electromagnetic), or psychosocial (relationship experiences, trauma, social conditioning) aspects of a patient’s life also reportedly influenced inflammation, with chronic psychological and emotional stress inducing a significant increase in observed blood inflammatory markers; thus promoting immune dysfunction and ultimately increasing the likelihood of chronic diseases in individuals of low SES.
Despite these undeniable correlations and profound implications, the medical model of inflammation as the root of disease is not a new concept. Whether willow bark or aspirin, both traditional Ayurvedic and modern Western medicine employ preparations of anti-inflammatory drugs to treat a number of maladies, from headaches to heart disease. In fact, many over-the-counter (OTC) medications, commonly prescribed pharmaceuticals, and even psychedelic drugs owe some portion of their medicinal benefits to anti-inflammatory effects exerted in particular tissues of the human body.
For example, recent research has revealed that two of the most commonly prescribed classes of antidepressants, Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and Selective Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors (SNRIs), may instead induce their expected medical effect via anti-inflammatory action within the brain itself, thus alleviating underlying neuroinflammation implicated as a central contributor to malaise, fatigue, brain fog, emotional reactivity, and other psychological symptoms. This revelation casts significant doubt on the broadly accepted model for the pathology of depression that classically purports serotonin deficiency as the primary cause. Today, a new breed of antidepressants specifically intended as anti-inflammatory drugs are undergoing feverish development by major drug corporations.
But before we herald these pharmaceutical innovations as the ultimate solution to tame the treachery of chronic neuroinflammatory disease, we must address the unjust marginalization and criminal victimization of disaffected Americans self-medicating via naturopathic means. Notwithstanding their evolutionary, anthropological, and social significance, the potent anti-inflammatory effects of cannabis, psilocybin mushrooms, and other psychedelic derivatives are now well-supported by an ever-growing body of recent scientific research. Although prohibitionist laws previously precluded a thorough investigation of their potential, the US has slowly and begrudgingly allowed the pursuit of psychedelic pharmacological power. As the barriers of outdated, impermissible, and fallacious legislative paradigms fall, clinicians are finally gaining critical insights that have enabled the development of novel pharmaceutical psychedelic derivatives with extreme precision; such that specific medical characteristics like an anti-inflammatory effect or psychedelic effect may be intentionally targeted and enhanced or diminished.
However new this scientific perspective may seem, medicinal preparations of psychedelics have reportedly been used for centuries, and even pharmaceuticals investigated and approved for clinical use decades ago were arguably directly modeled after psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin. Most notable of these compounds, Methergine (methylergometrine), is an LSD derivative used to induce contractions during childbirth since 1582, and is currently included on the World Health Organization’s (WHO) List of Essential Medicines. A similarly indispensable class of pharmaceutical psychedelic derivatives, the triptans, were first developed and patented in 1991 to treat migraines and cluster headaches, conditions which are both implicated to be caused by neuroinflammation. Interestingly, early triptans display remarkable structural similarities to tryptamine psychedelics like DMT and psilocybin.
Further progress spearheaded by brave and dutiful psychonauts in professional practice, underground social circles, and beyond has steadily illuminated the psychological and pharmacological nuances of many psychedelic drugs, revealing that they’re in fact highly safe and effective treatments for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), suicidality, depression, anxiety, addiction, Fibromyalgia, various chronic inflammatory diseases, and more. Tireless efforts across decades of clinical trials using psychedelics such as cannabinoids, MDMA, ketamine, and psilocybin have paved the way to their current or imminent approval by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
It finally seems quite possible that psychedelic medicines previously incorrectly admonished as “psychomimetic drugs” that imitated psychosis, damaged DNA, and were toxic to the human body may soon be available as legitimate pharmaceutical compounds aiming to alleviate the suffering of millions. With the current medical and legal trajectories, it’s highly likely that sometime in the not-so-distant future, inflamed Americans in need of psychedelic therapies will be able to access them without the unnecessarily harmful (but now still-looming) threat of social, criminal, and civil persecution. As much as one author celebrates this opportunity for a modicum of much needed progress in the United States, a single question remains:
Do a handful of state-level decriminalization initiatives for some select drugs, as well as the monetization and regulation of a limited number of pharmaceutical psychedelics at the federal level truly represent a sufficiently compassionate and broad solution to remedy the innumerable and egregious offenses against American life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness committed by the war on drugs?
In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Jennifer Montjoy: Tucson, Arizona-based psychiatric nurse practitioner with a private practice specializing in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, and Medical & Research Director at TRIPP (Transpersonal Research Institute of Psychotherapeutic Psychedelics); a 501(c)(3) organization that provides psychedelic training and research opportunities largely for female and BIPOC scientists.
A Vital student introduced Kyle to Montjoy’s research on ketamine and PTSD and presented with her at the recent ICPR conference in Amsterdam, where this was recorded in-person (as Kyle and Johanna were there, representing Psychedelics Today). Montjoy talks about her protocol, the self-transcendent scale she’s using with clients pre- and post- induction, how ketamine can help people get over past trauma through shifts in emotional memory, and what she sees most in successful cases: a gradual shift toward self-agency.
She discusses how integral titration is to her process; how ACE (adverse childhood experience) scores work; how dissociation can help with childhood trauma; how clients often naturally fall into using Internal Family Systems to describe their process; and how physicians and therapists shouldn’t be afraid of the concept of ceremony and opening sessions with intention – and, as she likes to say, giving one’s mind coordinates on where it can end up.
“I do think it’s helpful to have a skillset and general understanding of that so you know what’s happening in real time, but for the most part, I subscribe to the philosophy that we all have an inner healer. We all have that inner wisdom, but most of us don’t have access to it because we have these managing protectors from our trauma.”
“Often [for the] opening, I’ll ask the higher self to step into the light, to take the reins and let all those parts know that the goal here is not to annihilate or bypass them. That’s the language I consistently use in opening, because as the facilitator, we want to align with those parts too. We’re not the enemy.”
“Don’t be afraid to incorporate ‘ceremony.’ …I think that makes a lot of physicians maybe uncomfortable; that idea. [But] opening and closing [the ceremony] can be very helpful tools, [and] making sure we’re asking about intention before each session. I call that the coordinates, because we want to give the unconscious mind the coordinates.”
TrippAZ.org: The Transpersonal Research Institute of Psychotherapeutic Psychedelics
Resiliencetucson.com: 4-Day Experiential Training in Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy For Clinicians
Psychedelics Today: Ketamine and Trauma Treatment
Ncjfcj.org: Finding Your ACE Score
Psychedelics Today: PT300 – Dr. Richard C. Schwartz – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
Psychedelics Today: Veronika Gold – Methods of Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy
In this episode, Joe interviews Christopher Dawson & Andrew Galloway: Co-Founders and CEO and COO, respectively, of Dimensions; a Canadian-based company creating retreats that blend traditional plant ceremonies with neuroscience and a luxurious, five-star environment.
Dawson realized what so many people were starting to learn about psychedelics after attending a 2015 conference in Peru that mixed neuroscientists with traditional healers, but for Galloway, it was direct experience, as he gives credit to plant medicines for helping him to heal from a 6-year addiction to crack cocaine. They each tell their story and how it led to the beginnings of Dimensions, where they worked for a year with a “Dreamlab” team of MDs, psychiatrists, practitioners from different fields, and even a design agency to create different programs for different substances – all with a focus on true set and setting and integrating perfectly with nature. They’re in the middle of a soft launch right now, offering cannabis in a ceremonial, group setting context to friends and families at their Algonquin Highlands location; perfecting everything before opening up to the general public. And once the law catches up with them, they hope to offer psilocybin and other psychedelic-assisted therapy across several new retreat locations.
They talk about Health Canada and the country’s trajectory towards legal psychedelics; critiques of traditional addiction treatment and the efficacy of 12-step programs; the tension between the psychedelic space and traditional healing space; investing in biotech; the polyvagal theory; how animals deal with trauma (and how we don’t); and the concept of integration: If you’re just taking a pill and not doing the work, are you missing the point entirely?
“We’re biased (we’re in the retreat business), but I don’t think that psilocybin, as an example, should be reduced to a pill that you take with your juice in the morning and you no longer take your SSRI because this is your new pill. For us, it’s the psychedelic-assisted therapy that actually maximizes the potential of the psychedelic experience, and that’s the mechanisms through which fundamental, behavioral change can take place. I think the idea that a pill can replace all of that means that you’re kind of missing the point about the whole experience.” -Chris
“I don’t want to slam traditional treatment because it actually did work for me to some degree. …I had a crack-cocaine addiction for six-seven years and ended up in rehab for six months and came back and participated in 12-step programs and remained abstinent. That part worked. The difference for me when I got involved with plant medicine was something else: I got healed. Instead of just abstaining and not using to cope or to manage with whatever I was dealing with, I actually healed through plant medicine.” -Andrew
“Is it a pill or is it the therapeutic process? If you don’t engage in integration, then you’re just taking a pill.” -Chris
“We talked about stigma earlier; it’s changing, and [for] the general public, the stigma around the war on drugs is changing too. I think people have finally figured out that it doesn’t work. No war works. We only declare war on things that we can make money from.” -Andrew
Dimensionsretreats.com: Algonquin Highlands
Psychedelics Today: PT314 – Daniel McQueen, MA – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
Psychedelics Today: Canada’s SAP Expansion Signals a Step Forward for Psychedelics
Dimensionsretreats.com: Dimensions + Queen’s University
Somaticmovementcenter.com: What is the Polyvagal Theory?
Psychedelics Today: PT248 – Pierre Bouchard – Somatic Therapy, Trauma, and the Nervous System (more about the polyvagal theory)
Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org
In this episode, recorded in-person at the recent From Research to Reality summit, David interviews one of the more well-known figures in the psychedelic space (who somehow hasn’t been on the show yet), David Nutt: Psychiatrist, Founder and Chief Scientific Officer at Drug Science, Chief Research Officer at Awakn Life Sciences, and Edmund J. Safra Professor of Neuropsychopharmacology in the Division of Brain Science, Dept of Medicine, Imperial College London.
At Awakn Life Sciences, amongst other projects, Nutt is working to set up clinics for legal psychedelic therapy (so just ketamine for now), and, after a successful study on MDMA in the treatment of alcohol use disorder, he’s doing something nobody has really done before in seeing if improvements can be made to MDMA. He tells the story of when he was fired as chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs due to telling the truth about the differences in harm between alcohol, tobacco, and “bad” drugs like LSD and cocaine, which led to the birth of Drug Science (and embracing the truth about drugs even more).
He covers a lot of ground in this episode: how serotonin seems to affect the default mode network; glutamate, cortexes, and the flexibility in the human brain; Robin Carhart-Harris’ “Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression” study and the realization that psychedelics were doing something different in the brain; Measure 109 and the importance of how Oregon establishes a new paradigm around legal mushrooms; drug hysteria in the US and UK and how drastically that differs from Portugal’s incredibly successful approach to drugs; why real world evidence is the core of science; and why psychedelics seem best at disrupting internalizing disorders.
“The reality is that the psychedelic impact on depression has been so powerful, it’s changed the whole narrative about how we think about depression. Our one study in [treatment]-resistant depression spawned 40 companies now [that] are working on psilocybin for depression, which is amazing. …It’s been a spark to this amazing expansion. Why? Because for the last 40 years, there’s not been any innovation in terms of mechanisms in treating depression, ever. All the drugs we have today are essentially safer derivatives of the drugs we invented in the 1950s. So this is a new approach, and that’s really, really exciting.”
“We’ve got to get our politicians, our policymakers to admit that these drugs should never, ever have been put in Schedule I. They were put in Schedule I [because] we said they were ‘very harmful’ (which they’re not), and they have no medical value (which they do), and it’s actually immoral now, reprehensible that politicians could not see that.”
“They just said, ‘Let’s try a different approach. Let’s try decriminalization and let’s treat drug addicts as human beings and help them get off the addiction rather than put them in prison.’ And that’s been one of the greatest success stories in the history of drug interventions. In the 15 years we have data since the Portuguese experiment was instigated, the Portuguese have reduced opiate deaths to one third of what they were before. In the same 15 years in Britain, using prohibitionist policies, we’ve doubled our deaths from opiates. And that, frankly, is an insult to humanity that we’ve pursued policies which we know are actually killing people.”
“Real world evidence is the core of medicine.”
New England Journal of Medicine: Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression
Pubmed: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms
Parea.science: Psychedelics Access and Research European Alliance
Nature.com: Sacked science adviser speaks out
BBC.com: Alcohol ‘more harmful than heroin’ says Prof David Nutt (with drug harm scale)
EJI.org: Nixon Adviser Admits War on Drugs Was Designed to Criminalize Black People
NPR.org: New York City allows the nation’s 1st supervised consumption sites for illegal drugs
NYTimes.com: How a Man With a Van Is Challenging U.K. Drug Policy
The Drug Science Podcast: #32 – Drug Consumption Rooms, with Peter Krykant
He is currently the President of the European Brain Council and Founding Chair of Drug Science. Previously he has been president of the British Association of Psychopharmacology, the British Neuroscience Association, and the European College of Neuropsychopharmacology. He broadcasts widely to the general public both on radio and television. In 2010, The Times Eureka science magazine voted him one of the 100 most important figures in British Science, and the only psychiatrist in the list. In 2013, he was awarded the John Maddox Prize from Nature/Sense about Science for standing up for science.
Socials:
Twitter: David Nutt / Drug Science / Awakn Life Sciences
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews the CEO of Mindset Pharma, James Lanthier.
Mindset Pharma is a 3-year old biotechnology company built on discovering and developing new psychedelic compounds to be used as medicine for a variety of indications. While the efficacy of the psychedelics we know can’t be denied, the goal of science is to improve, and Lanthier believes optimizing these drugs will make them safer, more predictable, and more palatable for a far greater portion of the population. He envisions these new molecules leading to a future of highly personalized medicine, where people who would never eat a mushroom would likely take a related drug prescribed by their doctor.
Lanthier discusses what’s going on at Mindset Pharma; why patents alone will not be sufficient protection from competition; the long game of biotech, psychedelic stocks, and overreaction to slow growth; the Nagoya protocol; mescaline; the need for big pharma and capitalism; the art of formulation; and how microdosing could soon be revolutionized.
“I had some fairly well-known psychedelic investors say to me, ‘You’re just building a better mousetrap.’ And my reaction was: ‘Well, that’s the march of science. That’s what science is trying to do.’ Take the example of what the German scientist [Felix Hoffman] did in the nineteenth century to go from the bark of the willow tree, eventually going through a whole bunch of intermediate chemical steps to eventually get to Aspirin. Science hopefully tries to make things better, and that’s what we’re trying to do.”
“Big pharma has skipped right past psilocybin. Why? In my view, it would be because of the lack of strong IP rights. They’ve gone right to second and third generation drugs because they’ve made the assessment that even if you own the strongest IP in the psilocybin space, you’re still quite exposed, ultimately, to competition.”
“I think if there’s a future where you have relatively low-priced classic drugs potentially available alongside more optimized, specific drugs that have the full support of the medical community, that would be a great place to get to, I think – really great place to get to. And I think we only really get there with the machinery of capitalism moving forward.”
Otsuka-us.com (Otsuka Pharmaceutical)
Sciencehistory.org: Felix Hoffman
Protests for Right to Try (sent to us by Kathryn Tucker)
Socials: Linkedin
In this episode, Joe interviews Julie Zukof: Head of Strategic Partnerships for Nue Life and the creator of Psychedelic Women, and Michelle Weiner: a double board-certified Doctor specializing in integrative pain management, using cannabis, ketamine, and other holistic modalities to get to the root cause of chronic pain.
Weiner tells of how her pain-management methods changed as her patients told her about the healing power of cannabis and ketamine, and how she was even more inspired by learning how much chronic pain is a result of fight-or-flight trauma reactions and resulting learned behavior. She discusses the central sensitization of fibromyalgia; ketamine infusions and dose discovery; the differences between how therapists and coaches are viewed (and the need for both); session music and trusting the facilitator in their music choice; and the importance of preparing for a ketamine experience through meditation and/or breathwork.
And they talk about Psychedelic Women, which was just founded in January as a result of Zukof realizing how much women were a minority in the psychedelic space. She talks about why we need more women in psychedelia; women’s natural inclination to connect and support each other; and how medicine should mirror that – where people from all methodologies can work together for the betterment of the patient. Psychedelic Women is in the process of updating from a speaker series to a more community-based platform. If you want to become a part of the community, sign up at their waitlist today!
“Personally, the coaches and the therapists that I use (my nurse practitioners) are mainly women. And I don’t know if that’s because they gravitate towards this field or because patients gravitate towards them, but there’s that nurturing, innate property of being a woman that also is special and unique and we can use to our advantage in that sense.” -Michelle
“I think people are under the impression that psychedelics are always meant to be enjoyable. And while ketamine oftentimes is enjoyable, sometimes it’s meant to be part of a healing journey.” -Julie
“I credit Dustin [Robinson] for bringing us on and featuring the group at Soho House, and something he said was, ‘It’s not that I don’t want to feature women on the panel, I just need more women in the space to feature them.’ And I think that’s an excellent point. And if we can help do something about that, then I think we’re winning.” -Julie
“There’s so many other people that are involved in making this experience more effective for people. It’s not just the medicine and the doctor and the therapist and the coach. …It’s so nice to see because this is really how medicine should be. It shouldn’t be everybody in their own box like with other physicians. …This whole group is really bringing people together that have certain talents and passions and saying: ‘We can work together.’” -Michelle
Psychedelics Today: PTSF 41 (with Mendel Kaelen of Wavepaths)
“Psychedelics & Pain Symposium” event by REMAP Therapeutics (this event is tomorrow!)
Stanford Psychedelic Science Group
UC San Diego: Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative
Socials:
Socials: Instagram
In this episode, Joe interviews Co-Founder and CEO of Sensorium Therapeutics, Dick Simon.
Sensorium Therapeutics was created by professionals from Massachusetts General Hospital who started to wonder: With so many plants with rich, ethnobotanical history, what if we looked to those plants for answers instead of just analyzing the trendy psychedelics so many are focused on now? Why not fully research what already has established efficacy? Their goal is to have the largest collection of psychoactive plants (which they’re calling their Neuro-Natural Library), and use machine learning to figure out exactly which molecules are doing what, to then synthesize new drugs that are safe and effective; eventually bringing these new compounds through the FDA approval process.
Simon talks about how so much of what we know to be effective and beneficial is based on assumptions or best guesses, and while that doesn’t discredit very real benefits, it does beg the question: Is this all optimized as best as it could be?
He also discusses how recent advances in neuroscience and technology are catalyzing molecular research; how we can learn about other mental health indications from studying rumination; the benefits and challenges of nutraceuticals; geopolitical conflict resolution; organoids; the necessity of the FDA; why “them” can be a very dangerous word; the challenges of benzodiazepines; Burning Man; and the problem with people needing to be treatment-resistant or seriously ill to gain access to psychedelics. He hopes that what Sensorium Therapeutics learns over the coming years will help bring better medicines to more people.
“The goal here is to look at the 500+ plants and fungi and what their component elements are (what’s actually driving that efficacy, or signals of efficacy; signals that they make a difference in a high throughput way), to really assemble massive data. Then, we’re using machine learning to distill all that down to: ‘Alright, we have all this cool information; what does it mean? What does it tell us? And how do we convert that into a drug that helps people?’”
“We operate under a lot of assumptions that are based on experience, but are not based on any controls on the experience. Even something basic like the assumption [that] music and playlists are really important – they’ve been used and they seem to work. We don’t really know if that’s true. …I’m not saying that music and a controlled playlist isn’t absolutely the best answer, but it seems like it’s something we really ought to know an answer to, rather than make assumptions.”
“If I would have told someone ten years ago: “No, no, we’re going to have this company, Sensorium, and it is going to be able to, in a 384-well plate, take a look at groups of neurons growing, and we’ll have sophisticated microscopy to take a look at it, and we’ll be able to do it at a high throughput basis, and we can reliably do it and replicate,’ the question would have been: ‘Alright, what other drugs are you taking? That’s not going to [happen].’ [But] we’re there.”
“Even questions as to how important the psychedelic effect is to efficacy; the assumption tends to be that somehow or another, the intensity of the experience is related to the efficacy. …There are people now who are looking at: ‘What if you removed the psychedelic effect from psychedelics? Are you still getting the same neuroplasticity, neurogenesis, and much of the effect?’ I don’t know the answer, but I think those that are ideologues on either side of that [are] silly. Let’s figure it out. …Why don’t we find the answer rather than argue for whatever our position is?”
Massachusetts General Hospital Center for the Neuroscience of Psychedelics
Psychedelics Today: PT245 – Robin Carhart-Harris – Psychedelics, Entropy, and Plasticity
The Nagoya Protocol on Access and Benefit-Sharing
Dick Simon Ted Talk: ”The Most Dangerous Four Letter Word: Them”
An Intellectual History of Psychology, by Daniel N. Robinson
Bostonpsychedelicresearchgroup.com
Socials: Instagram / Twitter / Facebook / Linkedin
In this bonus episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Scott Shannon: psychiatrist, Founder of Wholeness Center in Fort Collins, CO, and Co-Founder and CEO of the Board of Psychedelic Medicine and Therapies (BPMT); a non-profit public benefit corporation which was recently created to certify healthcare professionals in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy – and which was just in the news last week when they received a $900,000 matching grant from the Steven & Alexandra Cohen Foundation.
Shannon feels that the majority of people who are interested in (and could benefit from) psychedelics would prefer that their experience be as close to a conventional medical setting as possible. And especially with the risks of rogue practitioners, licensing boards want to see predictability, uniformity, regulation, and (perhaps most importantly) that we as a psychedelic culture are placing importance on being accountable and self-governing. He wants to establish a certification process that’s standard enough that which medicine the patient is using will become secondary.
He discusses what the certification process will likely look like; why uniformity is so important; the challenges of respecting and integrating Indigenous traditions into a medical model that’s drastically different; what people should look for in psychedelic education; and the importance of breaking from a siloed and hierarchical model into one that’s cross-disciplinary, where professionals of all types can work together for the betterment of the patient.
“The premise of the certification board is that we’re trying to certify a process …of medication-assisted, psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy that looks at integration [and] prep, that looks at set and setting, that looks at the sacred container of this relationship; and that we build that, and that is the core of it, and the medications become a little bit secondary. We can bring ketamine in, we can bring DMT in, we can bring psilocybin [in], [and] we can bring MDMA in; because these medications, frankly, they’re not really chemically-related or that similar, but what’s similar is the process that patients go through with them.”
“There’s always the question of: ‘How do I get training?’ …The Psychedelic Science Funders Collaborative just did a survey of the field of education and found that there are now over 50 providers of psychedelic education, and four years ago, there might have been a handful. But someone coming [up]: What do they do? ‘How much do I need to study?’ These things are expensive. It’s confusing. So we want to create a clear, professional path [where] someone says: ‘I’m going to step into this and do this as a career. Here’s what I need to do? Good. I can do that.’”
Psychedelicsboard.org (The Board of Psychedelic Medicine and Therapies (BPMT))
Wholeness.com (Wholeness Center)
Psychedelics Today: Dr. Scott Shannon – Ketamine Therapies
Scott is a past President of the American Holistic Medical Association and a past President of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine. He serves as a site Principal Investigator and therapist for the Phase III trial of MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD sponsored by Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. He has also published numerous articles about his research on cannabidiol (CBD) in mental health. Scott founded the Psychedelic Research and Training Institute (PRATI) to train professionals in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and deliver clinically relevant studies. Scott co-founded the Board of Psychedelic Medicine and Therapies in 2021 and currently serves as the CEO for this non-profit public benefit corporation. He lectures all over the world to professional groups interested in a deeper look at mental health issues and a paradigm shifting perspective about transformative care.
In this episode, David interviews one of the biggest names in psychedelics and someone we haven’t had on the show until now; Founder and Executive Director of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), Rick Doblin, Ph.D.
MAPS has recently been at the center of media scrutiny, notably through the New York magazine‘s “Cover Story” podcast series, which chronicled instances of alleged sexual abuse within the MAPS clinical MDMA trials. Since reporting on this issue has largely called into question the design of MAPS’ clinical trials, data reporting, quality control, and claims around the efficacy of MDMA in the treatment of PTSD, we wanted to provide an opportunity for Doblin to respond to these very real concerns – and he does just that.
He discusses how MAPS reacted, what could have been done better, what it has all meant for the non-profit, and how it feels to now be considered the enemy by many in a space MAPS helped build. He addresses the concerns of sessions ending too soon (highlighting how that may suggest a desire for additional therapy) and asks anyone who has participated in a MAPS trial to complete a long-term follow-up survey so the organization can improve their process and ensure their data is as accurate and robust as possible.
He also discusses what the post-approval psychedelic landscape could look like; their goals for facilitator training and how they align with requirements in Oregon; their desire for a patient registry or “global trauma index”; and the importance of collecting and analyzing real-world evidence. And he talks about MAPS and their globalization goals: how exploring psychedelic therapy specifically in countries with little to no tradition of psychotherapy can lead to new therapeutic models. Rather than exploring areas where there is guaranteed revenue, they are seeking areas that are high in trauma instead – to bring these medicines where they are most needed.
“I think you can have solutions that go too far. The podcast people put out a solution, saying that there should be no touch in therapy. …They’ve also said that [our] studies should be shut down and that we need experts to think about this for years. I think that kind of thinking is out of balance with the amount of suffering that seems to actually be alleviated.”
“The more dangerous the drug, the more important it is that it be legal.”
“We’re really wanting to bring this to the police, [and] we’ve done a lot of work with veterans. The breakthrough that we’re still looking forward to one day would be to treat the first active duty soldier. So far, it’s only been veterans, but if we can treat active duty soldiers, I think that would be [great]. The closer you can treat people to the trauma, probably the better.”
“Even though we’re focused on MDMA and there’s all these other things for MDMA, really, what we’re doing is opening the door to psychedelic medicine. So what we want, ideally, is therapists to be cross-trained with MDMA, ketamine, psilocybin, ibogaine, 5-MeO-DMT, ayahuasca, whatever. And then the psychedelic clinics of the future will not be: ‘Here’s a ketamine clinic, here’s [an] MDMA clinic, here’s a psilocybin clinic.’ It will be psychedelic clinics, and the therapists will be cross-trained and they’ll customize a treatment program for each individual patient with any number of different kinds of psychedelics at different times in a sequence.”
Thecut.com: You Won’t Feel High After Watching This Video
New York Magazine: Cover Story, Season One: Power Trip
Maps.org: Statement: Public Announcement of Ethical Violation by Former MAPS-Sponsored Investigators
Psychedelics Today: Addressing Abuse in Psychedelic Spaces
Fromresearchtoreality.com: Global Summit on Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies and Medicine
Psychedelics Today: Peter Hendricks Ph.D. – Is Psilocybin Helpful For People Who Abuse Cocaine?
Psychedelics Today: PT227 – Dr. Anne Wagner – Couples Therapy, MDMA, and MAPS
Psychedelicscience.org: June 17-25, 2023 in Denver
Psychedelics Today: PT236 – Dr. Carl Hart – Drugs: Honesty, Responsibility, and Logic
Forastateofhappiness.com: How is Gross National Happiness measured in Bhutan?
Socials: Twitter / Instagram
MAPS socials: Twitter / Instagram
In this episode, David interviews Clinical Psychologist and Founder of the Psychedelic Society of Vermont, Dr. Rick Barnett, PsyD.
Barnett discusses the importance of building community in psychedelic spaces; psychedelic experiences as preventative medicine, and the differences between (and value within) the sanitized medical model and more ritualistic experiences. He talks about his own personal journey with addiction and recovery and looks at the interrelation between trauma, addiction, trust, and how psychedelics operate as disruptors – with a sense of meaning and purpose.
He discusses many of the current clinical trials happening around psychedelics and addiction; Alcoholics Anonymous and LSD; Vermont’s developing decriminalization bill (Measure H.644); the psychiatric workforce shortage and the potential solution of more prescribing psychologists; and, considering Oregon’s budding psilocybin therapy model, points out that one doesn’t need to be a licensed clinical practitioner with specific schooling to be a good psychedelic facilitator. Could we instead build models that are based largely on competency?
The Psychedelic Society of Vermont is putting on the Psychedelic Science & Spirituality Summit on the summer solstice (June 20-21) in Stowe, VT, with the goal of holding space for both the scientific and spiritual side of psychedelia. The conference is specifically for healthcare professionals, but all others are welcome to virtually attend or come to the summer solstice celebration after the conference. For more info, head to vermontpsychedelic.org.
“I had several profound experiences with LSD when I was a kid, and when I crashed and burned on alcohol and wound up in a 12-step rehab (the Hazelden Foundation), I quickly recognized that my experiences with LSD made me extremely receptive to the message that was being put forth to me in a 12-step-oriented rehab program. Concepts like surrender and a connection to spirituality, a connection to open-mindedness, willingness, being honest with oneself, taking one’s inventory – these kinds of concepts that are so common in 12-step programs – they resonated so strongly with me because of my experiences with LSD.”
“We have the ability to instill a sense of trust with our patients, and they can begin to trust themselves, and to trust the therapist, and to review some of these old hurts and really get into it over the course of therapy in a way that’s very healing. So it can happen with therapy, and I don’t think one is necessarily a substitute for the other. I think [psychedelics and therapy] work very well together. Psychedelics are yet another tool, just like therapy is a tool, just like AA is a tool, just like Suboxone and Methadone are tools. They’re all tools, and it’s really important to respect and honor that each one brings something positive, potentially, for an individual.”
“An AA program, a harm reduction program, a therapy program, a psychedelic program, [a] meditation retreat: All these things provide a nudge, and potentially a very transformative nudge in the direction of like, ‘Okay, and then what?’ What are you doing in your daily life? …That ‘assisted’ part is not just assisted by a therapist. It’s not just assisted by a drug. It’s not just assisted by a shaman or an integration coach. It’s assisted by everything.”
Psychedelic Science & Spirituality Summit
Openstates.org: An act relating to decriminalization of a personal use supply of a regulated drug
Psychedelics Today: PT236 – Dr. Carl Hart – Drugs: Honesty, Responsibility, and Logic
Hazelden.org: Hazelden Foundation
Mydecine.com: Mydecine Receives Conditional IRB Approval for Phase 2b Smoking Cessation Study
Pubmed: Long-term follow-up of psilocybin-facilitated smoking cessation
Lucid.news: Bill Wilson, LSD and the Secret Psychedelic History of Alcoholics Anonymous
His Linkedin post about trust and being let down
In this episode of the podcast, Kyle interviews psychiatrist, Dr. Reid Robison, and clinical psychologist, Steve Thayer, Ph.D. Together, they host the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast and work at Novamind; Robinson as the Chief Medical Officer, and Thayer as the Clinical Director of Education & Training.
They talk about their respective journeys from psychology into the field of psychedelic medicine, their current work with ketamine-assisted psychotherapy (KAP) at Novamind, and their combined efforts in educating and training future KAP therapists and clinicians – a need they feel is going to become increasingly urgent as ketamine becomes more mainstream. To meet the challenge of scaling accessibility of psychedelic therapies, Novamind recently combined forces with Numinus Wellness, creating a platform and standard of mental health care within psychedelic therapy.
Robison and Thayer discuss the different ketamine dosing modalities and purpose for each; the ketamine sessions Novamind provides for frontline healthcare workers (called ‘Frontline KAP’ or FKAP); how difficulties in emotion-processing are often at the heart of mental health struggles; and how ketamine can help loosen emotional binding, allowing greater access to them. They also discuss current clinical trials on LSD for anxiety and alcoholism; how ketamine can be used for therapist burnout; the challenge of long LSD sessions and therapist stamina; the benefits of group ketamine sessions; the concept of combining ketamine with other therapeutic modalities (or substances); and the power of stepping aside and allowing the inner healer to take over.
“Difficulties in emotion processing are often at the heart of many mental health struggles. And if we can support the clients in developing skills and confidence in moving towards their emotions, and leverage the power of the corrective experience, the healing power of caregivers, [and] supporting them with emotion coaching skills, then we’re wrapping the client in this really powerful therapeutic healing environment and leveraging ketamine as a catalyst.” -Reid
“People will tend toward self-actualization and transcendence if you give them the environment to do so. To be well is not something we have to teach people to do, it’s something that they can remember how to do. It’s in them. If we can help them peel away the negative programming and conditioning and trauma and all that stuff, they’ll find their way to health and healing.” -Steve
“To me, it makes complete sense to use something like LSD for anxiety because what we think perpetuates something like generalized anxiety is what Steve Hayes of ACT might call ‘experiential avoidance’; that we don’t want to feel these intense feelings of fear or embarrassment or rejection or whatever it is, so we worry chronically, we get addicted to worry itself, [and that] keeps us safe from having to do scary stuff. And the LSD experience is just (for a lot of people) going to crack that open and give you an opportunity to face your fears, so to speak. It’s like exposure therapy on psychedelic steroids.” -Steve
Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast
Foundations of KAP Training Course from Cedar Psychiatry
MAPS MDMA Therapy Training Program
Novamind.ca: Frontline KAP Group Sessions for Health Care Workers
Wholeness.com: Dr. Scott Shannon
Psychedelics Today: PT302 – Dr. Adele Lafrance – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
Psychedelics Today: PT300 – Dr. Richard C. Schwartz – Vital Psychedelic Conversations
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews retired Nurse Practitioner, Midwife, and Air Force Captain, Kimberly Juroviesky.
Juroviesky was forced to retire from her career and aspirations in the Air Force after she fell during a training exercise and again on ice months later, eventually realizing she had developed Complex Regional Pain Syndrome; a little understood condition where essentially, nerves continue to tell one’s brain that a healed injury should still hurt. When she tried ketamine and it cut her pain in half, she wondered, “Why aren’t more people doing this?” and created the Ketamine Task Force to fight to get insurance to pay for ketamine (and eventually, other legalized psychedelics).
She discusses Complex Regional Pain Syndrome and her path to ketamine; the redefining of “treatment-resistant”; the lack of knowledge from so many physicians about drug interactions and proper dosing; the mental health benefits of primal activities like swimming or dancing; the utility, timing, and efficacy of each ketamine method (for others and what’s worked best for her); the arduous and frustrating process of applying for a new CPT code with the AMA; how chronic pain and suicidality are intertwined; and the relationship between the timing of ketamine sessions, improvements, and problems returning.
Juroviesky is currently practicing Nue Life‘s protocol, with at-home ketamine and participating in group integration sessions. She believes the future of ketamine will be similar to how many feel psychedelics like ayahuasca, psilocybin, or LSD should be used: using smaller (and lighter) doses as maintenance in between larger experiences (in this case, in-office IV or ketamine infusions) – with, of course, lots of integration.
“The biggest hurdle has been access for me [and] access for everyone, because unfortunately, the majority of insurances refuse to pay for ketamine. It’s very depressing, very upsetting that you have all these people who could benefit but they can’t get access because they can’t afford it, because most of the people who need this medicine, unfortunately, are on disability and no one has the money to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for this treatment. So I founded an organization called the Ketamine Task Force in order to fight to get insurances to cover ketamine.”
“Unfortunately, there’s so many clinicians out there who are either not telling their patients things like which drugs prevent ketamine from working at its best, or they’re doing doses that are so ridiculously low that their patients get no response and then their patients think they’ve ‘failed ketamine.’ And I’m like, ‘You haven’t even tried ketamine! You think you’ve failed it, but really, you’ve only gotten .2 milligrams per kilogram. That’s like taking a baby aspirin for a brain tumor.’ Education is so important; not just education for patients, [but] education for clinicians.”
“There are people who go into their ketamine treatment completely suicidal, with a plan, ready to kill themselves, and they come out and they say, ‘I don’t want to kill myself anymore.’ It’s unbelievable, the changes. Even in one session, it can reduce that suicidality. It doesn’t [work right away] for everyone. Sometimes it takes three, four, six, ten [sessions], but almost everyone sees some improvement immediately, and that’s the amazing thing. …And if it’s not ketamine, then, like I said: try psilocybin, try MDMA. But there is hope. Don’t give up hope. There’s always hope. As long as you’re alive, there’s always hope for tomorrow.”
“We want to be the go-to who’s going to help with ground-breaking and changing laws and getting things done. …We want to be the ones to bring it to the world because we just feel like this is so important. We literally are changing the world right now.”
Ketamine Task Force Facebook group
Medical Billing CPT Codes: What is CPT?
Imdb.com: Who Killed the Electric Car?
Psychedelics Today: Court Wing – Pain and Its Relationship to the Mind
Rollingstone.com: Naomi Judd Died by Suicide, Ashley Judd Reveals
Socials: Twitter / Linkedin / Instagram
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews Lyle Maxson: Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer of Entheo Digital, a “technodelic” company focusing on digital therapeutics and virtual reality – both as adjuncts to psychedelic-assisted therapy, and theoretically, as new forms of medicine.
Maxson began his career by creating immersive, psychedelic-like experiences at some of the world’s largest music festivals. It was mostly those world-building experiences and some time in sensory deprivation tanks that led to his interest in seeing just what was possible through altered states of consciousness and technology. He discusses using VR before and after psychedelic experiences as a priming and integration tool; VR’s potential to ease first-time trip anxiety; Entheo Digital’s SoundSelf system and the powerful influence of biofeedback; and the question of whether or not technology (on its own) could initiate a non-ordinary state of consciousness with the same benefits as one brought on by psychedelics.
This episode treads lots of new ground, with Maxson discussing the likelihood of using different tools to be able to naturally activate endogenous DMT; the idea of a Steam-like internet marketplace for digital medicine; the possibility for technology to trigger lucid dreaming; the concept of highly-personalized digital schooling, and the tough question of how to not become so reliant on technology in such a quickly-advancing technological world. The challenge, which Maxson is eager to take on, is to shift opinions on VR from fear and pessimism to inspiration about what’s truly possible: How can we use technology not for escapism, but instead, for good?
“If you’re trying to drive to a yoga class, you’re usually more stressed out by the time you get there than if you hadn’t of left your house at all. And I feel like that’s the case with a lot of therapy work in general, whether it’s psychedelics or not; you could have [an] onboarding call with somebody the day before, but you have no idea what’s happening to them [in] the 24 hours leading up to them actually coming into your clinic. So I think the big focus on the priming is: how do we have reliable, very consistent treatment processes with being able to drop people into a very deep surrender, meditative, introspective state prior to them actually going into a therapeutic process?”
“I think that eventually, you’ll start to combine light, frequency, vibration, [and] electromagnetics to the point where you could actually activate DMT inside of your brain without having to use it from an external source – so like, literally using technology to activate the psychedelics inside of your own body. I think we will get to that place and that will be very interesting.”
“What [we’re] doing with creating digital medicine is a holy grail type of project, but with that comes the reverse side; which is the addiction that we already have to computers is off the charts, but what happens when you could literally press play and get high at any moment? Would people ever get off of it? So that’s a philosophical question, but I think we’re actually going to butt up against that in the next few years as we continue to develop this technology.”
“What does it look like to get in on the ground floor? It’d be really hard to do that in movies or radio or the variety of mediums; TV shows, all of those things. Like, they’re already pretty much dominated by content that we don’t really want or doesn’t make us feel better when we watch it. But with VR, it’s early enough to get in on the ground floor and create compelling alternatives to the zombie shooter games and the porn that will inevitably fill the device, and get people thinking about how to be an embodied avatar inside of a virtual world and do it for good instead of for escapism.”
Guide to Topanga Canyon: A Piece of Hippie Heaven
Truerestfranchising.com: Nick Janicki
Spiritualtechnologies.io: Don Estes
Othership.us (Robbie Bent)
Enterandromeda.com (Andromeda Entertainment)
What Technology Wants, by Kevin Kelly
The Tim Ferriss Show: Interview with Peter Thiel, Billionaire Investor and Company Creator (#28)
Reality Is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World, by Jane McGonigal
Exploredeep.com (Deep VR)
AppliedVR.io (Applied VR)
In this episode of the podcast, David interviews Anne Philippi; Founder & CEO of The New Health Club. Prior to her work with TNHC, Anne was a journalist for VOGUE, GQ, and Vanity Fair.
Philippi takes us through the arc of her departure from the media world in 2018 and into the realm of psychedelia. She opens up about her first experiences with LSD and psilocybin; how those journeys helped her shake off her “old narrative” as a journalist and step into her “real narrative”; the podcast that was birthed out of that inner work and its transformation into a business; and the work TNHC now does with ketamine and psilocybin truffles. Along with her personal story, she talks about things like integration; how the meaning of symbols witnessed in journeys becomes clearer over time; generational trauma (especially as experienced by Germans); non-linear healing; and how modern data pertaining to psychedelics is outshining the hangover from the US’s drug war propaganda.
Using the current COVID era and Ukraine/Russia conflict as examples, Philippi shares how crises can inspire togetherness and the importance of making psychedelic therapy available to refugees. She takes a very optimistic stance on the incorporation of psychedelics into the workplace as a means to help it evolve, and she talks about the toxicity of hustle culture; how safe, supported psychedelic practices can prevent burnout in the workforce; the companies that are already offering psychedelic experiences and therapy for their staff; and the value in entertaining psychedelics as a preventative measure – not just a recuperative treatment.
“I really think that with a psychedelic experience, or a regular checking in with [yourself] based on that psychedelic experience (maybe even to go on a guided trip [once or twice] a year), it’s really easier to acknowledge your body, to have a conversation with your body. Because we don’t say, ‘I’m tired, I feel like I need to take a break’; we mostly overstep that moment because then you have another coffee or you go for a run – all these tools we have in our Western society to ignore our exhaustion limits.”
“Let’s say you have an amazing psychedelic trip, and then you go back to your shitty life and you don’t change that, and you don’t go in nature, and you don’t have a community, and you’re in a toxic relationship – then the trip doesn’t actually matter in a weird way. I think that’s also something that is becoming now very clear; that the surrounding where you actually land after your trip also has to be transformed.”
“I think in the next five years, there might be completely transformed companies coming out of a psychedelic leadership idea. And again, that doesn’t mean the crazy CEO who is going crazy on ayahuasca, it’s just really to have a very conscious use of these substances, to really look into a better understanding of a very productive and creative community that is not suffering from [a] toxic work environment anymore.”
“You can find this kind of truth with the help of psychedelics. The people who I have talked to who have experienced that, whatever substance it is …pretty much, that’s the bottom line [of] what people say. At the same time, we should not really forget to say those people who found that had also done a proper integration and keep doing it, even after months and months of experiencing what they have seen.”
Socials: Instagram / Twitter / LinkedIn
In this episode of the podcast, recorded live from the Archipelago Attic space in Denver, CO, Joe sat down with Unlimited Sciences founder, Del Jolly; Former UFC champion and Hall of Famer, Rashad Evans; and 10-year NFL veteran quarterback, Jake Plummer, at the initial launch of their new functional mushrooms company, Umbo Mushrooms.
Plummer and Evans tell their story of how they met Jolly and transformed from professional athletes to long-haired mycophiles who are now running their own mushroom company; discussing how difficult transitioning back to normal everyday life after a sports career can be, and how CBD, following the Stamet’s stack protocol, and learning about all the anecdotal evidence of brain injury healing started to make them question what kind of long-term issues they may have coming to them (fellow athletes have asked Evans: “Do you feel it?”). Jolly believes that functional mushrooms have just as much, if not more potential to help humanity than the often higher-praised psilocybin.
The four of them talk about a lot more in this nearly 2-hour panel discussion (with audience questions): the power in language and how a diagnosis can be a wall people put up that blocks progress; how valuable it is to learn from each other in group preparation and integration sessions (Evans calls these ceremonies “share-emonies” for this reason); how the UFC and NFL feel about psychedelics; microdosing and competition; NFTs; the Telluride Mushroom Festival; and the problem with TBI often being misdiagnosed as PTSD. And they discuss what steps we can take to better align our communities to the set and setting we want; the importance of slowing down; how every person has a specific audience they can reach; how we can learn from Indigenous people about our lost connection to community; and the interesting question of if we actually feel better from eating mushrooms because as a society, we completely removed them from our diets and our bodies have been craving them ever since.
Umbo Mushrooms has just recently launched and they’re offering a 20% off discount for PT listeners (use code Unlimited20 at checkout). Additionally, if you are planning to use psilocybin outside a research laboratory before July 1st, Unlimited Sciences is running a study to learn more about the positive and/or negative outcomes of using psilocybin in more natural settings. You can participate here.
“As a big advocate for psilocybin in particular, functional mushrooms have just as much, if not more potential to help humanity than psilocybin. I really believe that. And it’s just a matter of time before some eight year old kid is going to come up and say, ‘Oh, that’s the key. Look what I found!’ Boom. ‘Now my Dad really isn’t going to age.’” -Del
“I think tapping into those Indigenous voices – those stories, the history – is very important for the movement because they understood community. And when you look at what are the biggest [ailments] in our society is the fact that we have a broken community. Our communities are broken for the larger part. And finding ways to tap back into that old knowledge of ways we used to be can get us to remember what we are [and] how to be towards each other. I think that we don’t get better as a world until we get better as a community, and I think tapping into those strong Indigenous community roots would help us to be what we could be.” -Rashad
“The world doesn’t need psychedelics. The world needs community and a meditation practice. But psychedelics is the 2×4 that brings you to that awareness.” -Del
“Don’t minimize what your impact is. If you’re Rashad Evans with a platform, [a] Hall of Famer, Jake Plummer, [whoever]… Either you’re that or this. Don’t minimize what it is, because whoever you’re speaking to might be the person who sets it off.” -Del
“I think once you get into the mushrooms, you can’t help but learn more kindness, compassion, and love. It will open your mind. That’s kind of why I said those three words; is if we can keep that in front of everything and also the sacred part of everything… Everything should be a lot more sacred than it is, everything we do. I find myself grabbing food and eating it and then going, ‘Damn, I didn’t even really thank this food for being here.’ We take a lot of things for granted, so I think just starting with that awareness can be a step in the right direction.” -Jake
Unlimitedsciences.org: Real-world psilocybin mushroom study
Psychedelics Today: Del Jolly – Psilocybin, Concussions, and Unlimited Sciences’ Mission
Ffungi.org (The Fungi Foundation)
Microdosinginstitute.com: Stamets Stack
YouTube: Joe Rogan Experience #1035 – Paul Stamets
Mushroomdesign.com: How (and why) cordyceps were mistaken for steroids in the 1993 Olympic Games
YouTube: “When The Bright Lights Fade”
Psychedelics Today: PT246 – Amber and Marcus Capone of VETS – Foundational Healing and the Brain
Metatoadsgang.io (Rashad Evans’ NFT project)
The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible, by Charles Eisenstein
Archipelagodenver.com (where this podcast was recorded)
Instagram / Twitter / Facebook
“Suga” Rashad Evans (left) is a former UFC light heavy weight champion and Hall of Famer. He currently is an ESPN analyst for the UFC and Co-Founder of Umbo Mushrooms.
Instagram / Twitter / Facebook
Jake Plummer (center) is a former NFL Pro-bowl quarter back who played 10 years in the league with the Arizona Cardinals and the Denver Broncos. He is now a mycophile who runs Umbo and Mycolove Farms.
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle interviews Daniel McQueen, MA: psychedelic specialist, educator, and author of Psychedelic Cannabis: Therapeutic Methods and Unique Blends to Treat Trauma and Transform Consciousness. McQueen is the Executive Director of the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness in Boulder, CO, where he facilitates psychedelic sessions with cannabis and ketamine.
This talk covers a lot but really hits home on a few very important topics: the clinical model’s limited perspective; the importance for psychedelic boards to self-organize before government agencies step in; and how cannabis can actually be as powerful a psychedelic as DMT. They mull over where the field of psychedelics is going and wonder: Who gets to do this work? And can psychedelics really fit within our current medical models?
McQueen digs into the non-licensed approach to facilitation; the difference between coaching, counseling, and psychotherapy; and describes valuable harm reduction strategies, vital self-care practices for facilitators, and ways to navigate the (not talked about enough) transformational process of being a guide for others. If you experience anxiety or paranoia from cannabis, you’ll learn how Nano CBD can shut it down almost instantaneously. Last but certainly not least, McQueen shares all about the transformative work and trainings he and his colleagues are doing at both the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness and Psychedelic Sitters School.
“We’ve got to have our boards, we’ve got to become members of those boards, and we’ve got to self-organize and regulate. Otherwise, the government agencies are going to do it for us. It’s going to become super clinical, super medical. It’s going to limit the scope to only people who are really suffering and I think that’s a trap.”
“I’m thinking [cannabis is] probably one of the best psychedelics for trauma resolution work and other things. So I’m way past ‘Is this psychedelic?’ I’m stepping into: ‘This might be one of the best medicines for psychedelic therapy and guiding that we have available.’”
“I just was intuitively drawn from the beginning to do blends – to blend multiple strains [of cannabis] together – and I started to experiment on my friends. …One of my friends …sat up and said, ‘Daniel, if I didn’t trust you, I would swear you put DMT in that.’ And I hadn’t, it was just pot. And that was the moment. I’m like, ‘Okay, maybe there’s something to this.’”
“Sometimes these stories that we hear are the hardest stories to hear from another human being. So there’s an emotional impact to process. I’ve had to really evaluate my existential understanding of reality because of this job, so there’s that whole thing too. It’s not the same as psychotherapy, it’s just not. Professionally speaking, I tell people it’s more like being an emergency medicine doctor. You’ve got to take time off. Self-care is vital.”
Psychedelics Today: Daniel McQueen – DMTx and Future Psychedelic Technologies
Psychedelics Today: Daniel McQueen – Extended-State DMT Research (DMTx)
Psychedelics Today: Daniel McQueen – Medicinal Mindfulness & Conscious Cannabis Circles
Psychedeliceducationcenter.com: DMTx Psychonaut Training Webinar
Naropa.edu: Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies Certificate
Dr. Michael Harner: The Foundation for Shamanic Studies
Socials: Instagram / Twitter / Facebook
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor and Holotropic Breathwork® facilitator, Christine Calvert.
At age 19, Calvert left Los Angeles and found her way to breathwork, spending four years in Grof Transpersonal Training. She quickly discovered that the technique served as a gateway back home to herself – her sacred self. Together, Christine and Joe cut through the many layers of the holotropic paradigm and transpersonal experiences, discussing how willingness for accountability & repair in facilitation are more important than perfection; the role of touch in breathwork sessions and the potential harm in not providing it; how amplification over suppression of symptoms in breathwork can heal; and how doing less as a facilitator can actually do more.
She also talks about the inner healing intelligence we all possess; how celestial nostalgia leads to mystical yearning; the ethics of spaceholding; the excitement and terror in expanded states of consciousness; saying yes to the entire archetypal pool; how Grof was (and still is) decades ahead of psychology; and what it means to die to ourselves.
“There [were], I don’t know, 175 people there. So that was my first big group breathwork. I was sitting first and I remember just looking out at the room which was just absolute pandemonium. It was like the display of the full human experience. I remember just crying because I was both totally intrigued and excited – like ‘Finally, I’ve arrived’ – and then I was also just incredibly terrified. I feel like that’s an interesting and kind of truthful reflection of how expanded state work is for a lot of people. There’s this part of me that feels home and also maybe a little healthy resistance to knowing what that also means for me.”
“One of the greatest gifts we can do for someone is to trust that what is happening for them is exactly what is needing to come through for their healing and that there’s nothing that we necessarily need to do in order to manage that.”
“I can’t imagine that continuing to just treat symptoms and see everything through a pathological lens is really all that fulfilling. Also we’re just the doers in that world. And as much as I think our ego wants that, behind that is always the desire to be a part of something that’s actually truly healing, and to know that we’ve empowered somebody to heal themselves. This is one of the things I love so much about the holotropic paradigm; is that it is about radical self-empowerment.”
“I think we have to stop being afraid to just be vulnerable. We have to stop being afraid of our humanity. As facilitators, as practitioners, as spaceholders, as participants in medicine and breathwork – this is what we have to really be willing to share. …When we’re willing to sort of knock ourselves off the saint pedestal as facilitators and spaceholders, I think then we might be able to hold this.”
Holotropic.com: Grof Transpersonal Training
The Ethics of Caring: Finding Right Relationship With Clients, by Kylea Taylor
Exploring Holotropic Breathwork, Edited by Kylea Taylor
For our first ever Earth Day episode, Joe interviews publisher, ecologist, and planetary steward, Deborah Snyder. Snyder is the co-owner of Synergetic Press and its associated organic farm, orchard, and retreat center, Synergia Ranch.
Snyder worked with the team that designed and built Biosphere 2, and she unpacks the many ways in which understanding the planet as a biosphere – a collection of cooperative living systems – can shift our perspectives and help us to heal our precious home. She discusses how monitoring the earth from space can teach us how best to care for it; the technosphere’s disharmonious relationship with the biosphere; the anthropocene epoch; Synergia Ranch and Synergetic Press; the importance of recognizing ourselves as an integral part of nature; and the ways psychedelic and ecological spaces overlap. While both agree that the environment is in trouble, they have an air of optimism and action that we all desperately need in order to secure the future of the planet and our species.
This episode also features a brief chat between Joe and Kyle, with Joe calling in from Bicycle Day San Francisco. With Vital officially launching the same week we hit 3 million downloads of the podcast (!!!), they felt it was worth doing a rundown of the top 8 most downloaded episodes, as well as highlighting some of their favorites. Thank you to everyone who has been listening and sharing your favorite episodes with friends. To 3 million more!
“I would describe the psychedelic world as tools to be able to enhance a person’s ability to explore and to understand what connections and interrelationships are. Many people that have had grand epiphanies that have led to whole new revolutionary technologies attest to this phenomenon. So Biosphere 2 was definitely an example of the creativity that came out of people that were able to do that.”
“We are very much nature and I think that we need to really work on our value of what that brings us and carefully consider before utilizing those resources for something that is perhaps just a one-way street.”
“I have never met anybody that has undergone or gone through any kind of transformative experience for themselves or looking for insight that hasn’t come out with a greater appreciation for the nature of which we are a part.”
Psychedelics Today: PT228 – Deborah Snyder from Synergetic Press
The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
Wikipedia.org: Vladimir Vernadsky
Wikipedia.org: Anthropocene Epoch
Tamera.org: Peace Research & Education Center
Vandana Shiva | Synergetic Press
The Rose of Paracelsus: On Secrets & Sacraments, by William Leonard Pickard
LSD My Problem Child: Reflections on Sacred Drugs, Mysticism, and Science, by Albert Hofmann, Ph.D.
LSD Psychotherapy: The Healing Potential of Psychedelic Medicine, by Stanislav Grof
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, David interviews Omar Thomas: Founder of Jamaica’s Diaspora Psychedelic Society, CEO of Jamaican Organics, Psychedelics Today Advisory Board member, organic farmer, and certified death doula.
Thomas discusses how we define home, the importance of having open dialogue with our children about psychedelics, how the psychedelic experience relates to permaculture, our cultural absence of a rite of passage, the joy in psychedelics, and the value in allowing change to become a natural evolution we experience once we take the mindful seat of the observer.
Thomas breaks down all the ways in which Jamaica is shaping its framework as a psychedelic-informed health & wellness destination and the country’s cultural roadblocks that could potentially impede its development. And he talks a lot about his work as a death doula: the importance of taking a more sacred and preparatory approach to death, how helping someone through the transition is the ultimate holding of space, and how each psychedelic trip can be a practice session for death.
A theme that is consistent throughout this conversation is self-directed growth via The Warrior’s Way – an exercise in discovery, surrender, and developing daily practices toward change. Thomas posits that it’s when we hold space and shed the many layers of our identity that we can begin to foster real change – by “staying on” and becoming an observer rather than directly trying to change things, change will happen naturally.
“The things you need for a psychedelic trip are the same things you need for life. You need courage when you’re afraid and you need to prepare yourself for the things you’re going to undertake, and to do them seriously and with appreciation for the moment.”
“The idea of holding space is so much about us not being in the way of hearing what others have to say, and allowing them to come to realizations that they would come to naturally if they would but take the time to sit for a while and contemplate the idea without distraction.”
“I found that Jamaica itself is healing. The island is healing. And I don’t want to get too esoteric about it, but there’s something about even just being outside for me in the early morning hours before the sun rises in a climate that can allow me to do so comfortably, and to be able to start to appreciate still connection, just on its own – I’m finding that this place seems to be tuned to some sort of frequency. It just makes it easier to slip into a feeling of wholeness, or at least of wanting to be.”
“We have our lifetimes only to begin to affect the change in the things that move us. If we are upset about the climate, let’s use the life we have. Let’s use the life we have to connect so that when death comes, we have lived a life worth living, that’s so satisfying that it’s okay to let go. For me, the psychedelic trip and journey is about letting go in a micro sort of way. Each trip is a practice session.”
“I’ve seen people laugh and chuckle now at the idea of not being, because during the trip, they learned that there’s no way to not be, because matter cannot be created or destroyed. …We’re afraid of smoke and mirrors and shadowboxing – things that we don’t need to fear.”
Through Diaspora Psychedelic Society, Omar collaborates with a number of organizations to promote more equitable access, Jamaican inclusion, and innovative approaches to psilocybin-supported therapies. In addition to overseeing day-to-day DPS activities, he is the CEO of Jamaican Organics, and sits on the strategic advisory board of Psychedelics Today.
Omar now resides on his ancestral island home in St. Elizabeth, Jamaica.
Diaspora Psychedelic Society socials: Instagram / Facebook
The continued exploitation of this fragile species for its DMT encapsulates narcissism itself.
Until recently, the Sonoran desert toad, Incilius alvarius (formerly Bufo alvarius) was not on my wildlife-watch radar. Then an email from the owner of a group of psychedelic retreat centers operating in Latin America, Portugal, and the Netherlands brought the greenish brownish warty native of the Sonoran desert to my attention. He was writing to let me know that the personality disorder of narcissism, the toxic world-killer which has brought life on Earth to an environmental and climatological precipice, could be cured – with psychedelics. Specifically with “Toad Venom.”
“With expert guidance and facilitation, psychedelics can help us… be collectively healthy, happy, and harmonious in the stewardship of our planet,” he wrote.
Curious, I clicked on a link for a “Transformational Bufo Alvarius Retreat (5-MeO-DMT, Toad Venom).” According to the ad, “5-MeO-DMT, also known as the sacred toad medicine, is a beautiful teacher that can lead to profound transformation when facilitated by experienced guides,” and they would be offering dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in its 5-MeO-DMT – toad form – as the chemically mediated gateway to this process.
As something of an expert in identifying displays of cognitive dissonance, the suggestion that exploiting a toad in the interest of curing Homo sapiens of his most reprehensible trait was not sneaking past my cognitive threshold.
I love amphibians. I always have. When I lived in Kenya as a teenager, the red legged Hyperolius viridiflavus flashed from reed to reed in the dam below the house; on a trip to Madagascar, I observed the tomato frog, Dyscophys antongilii, sequestered in a storm drain in a village; near my former home in the Sierra Nevadas, the mountain yellow-legged frog, Rana muscosa chirped in mountain lakes every spring.
Worldwide, amphibians are the most threatened class of vertebrates on the planet. Although thought to be abundant in its home range of the Mexican state of Sonora and parts of Arizona, the Sonoran desert toad is on endangered species lists in both California and New Mexico. In Arizona, a fishing license grants collection of up to ten live Sonoran toads. Shipping them to another state or abroad is illegal and prosecutable, as is possession of the psychedelic 5-MeO-DMT.
Prohibition against toad possession has not stopped poachers though. In Arizona, poachers were caught on camera dumping toads into plastic bags in a wildlife conservation area.
Increased toad poaching and illegal transport across state borders and the US-Mexico border has recently triggered the Lacey Act, which prohibits import, export, sale, acquisition or purchase of fish, wildlife or plants transported, or sold in violation of US, Indian or international law. Law enforcement agents for the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) confirmed they are currently carrying out an investigation. Whether their efforts are successful in reducing illegal trade remains to be seen.
DMT is a trace neurotransmitter found in mammalian lungs and brains, as well as in numerous plant species. The DMT molecule was first synthesized in a lab in 1931 by Canadian chemist, Richard Manske. Its natural occurrence in plants was not confirmed in Western science until microbiologist Oswaldo Gonçalves de Lima did a biochemical study of Mimosa hostilis in 1946 after observing the Indigenous Pancuro Tacarutu (Brazil) ceremonially drinking an intoxicating brew* called vinho da jurema distilled from the plant’s root bark. In 1956, Hungarian chemist and psychiatrist, Stephen Szara extracted DMT from Mimosa hostilis, gave himself an intramuscular injection of it, and experienced a “psychotic effect to the serotonin metabolism.”
The now discredited hypothesis that Indigenous groups used a hallucinogenic compound derived from toads was put forth by anthropologist Dr. Jeannette Runquist, and reported in a 1981 issue of Omni Magazine. She described decapitated toad skeletons buried near excavations of ancient Cherokee encampments in North Carolina, and wrongly inferred that what was, in fact, food waste as the telltale sign of Indigenous mysticism.
“Food trash was taken for psychedelic magic,” said Robert Villa, Research Associate, Tumamoc Desert Laboratory, Tucson, Arizona, and President of the Tucson Herpetological Society. “Toads were skinned and eaten as survival food, as part of the ordinary diet.”
Despite claims on the part of modern healers, there is no evidence in the archeological record of toads being used ceremonially by Indigenous groups in the Americas.
“For such a significant smoke, there would have to be some record of it,” said Mr. Villa. “Even though Indigenous cultures can be good at hiding things from outside inquisition, this is too significant to go unnoticed,” he said. “The significance of the toad in Indigenous culture isn’t what people want to believe,” said Mr. Villa. One of his goals is “to stop the appropriation of Indigenous culture around the Sonoran desert toad. All of the archeological leads are dead ends.” Using the abundant depictions of toads in Mesoamerican culture to bolster the specious claim that the toads were used in psychedelic rituals represents cultural hijacking.
For ancient cultures, the life cycle of the Sonoran toad embodied rebirth and renewal. Its seasonal appearance – they spend ten months of the year underground, emerging briefly in July and August during the rainy season to mate and reproduce – as well as its complex life cycle, which involves metamorphosis from a water-dwelling, gill-breathing, fish-like tadpole to land-dwelling, four-legged adult toad adds to its supernatural aura.
“They were thought to interact with gods of the underworld,” said Mr. Villa. In Sonora, locals avoid them as toxic. Among the Indigenous groups in northern Mexico, their appearance is associated with the arrival of seasonal rains. Disturbing them is an accursed act which can disrupt weather patterns. “You could incur damages from the gods in the form of drought or flooding if you harass a toad,” he said.
The evidence, according to Mr. Villa and other scientists who have explored the natural history of Incilius alvarius, indicates extracting and smoking toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT is a post-industrial phenomenon. It has nothing to do with cultural tradition. In recent years, however, “smoking toad” has become the new psychedelic fad, making Incilius alvarius the latest must-have in the growing list of psychedelic consumables. And in response to increasing demand from the tourism and retreat industries, one Mexican coastal group whose members have subsisted on tourism – mostly selling ironwood carvings to foreigners – have begun peddling Sonoran toad medicine to foreigners.
“The Seri, or Comcaac [an Indigenous group living on the mainland coast of the Gulf of California] adopted toad magic and medicine as a tourism item. They’re trying to make a living by facilitating people smoking this stuff. It’s not part of their history,” said Mr. Villa.
There is hearsay evidence, according to Mr. Villa, that regional cartels have begun exploiting this practice as well, as further means to extort locals in the interest of serving what is becoming a global trade.
The entry of toad medicine into modern psychedelia is itself a twisted tale. Back in 1981, the Omni article piqued the interest of one reclusive resident of Denton, Texas, named Ken Nelson. While studying at the University of North Texas, Mr. Nelson commenced an earnest inquiry into toad skin secretions. He came across the work of the Italian toxicologist Dr. Vittorio Erspamer, whose most important contribution to neuroscience was the identification and synthesis of the neurotransmitter, serotonin. As a toxicologist, Dr. Erspamer was most interested in the exudate from amphibian parotid glands as a possible source of new medical drugs. His chemical analysis of the venom from 40 toad species serendipitously yielded the finding Nelson had hoped for: one species, Incilius alvarius synthesized a DMT-containing substance. Mr. Nelson documented his discovery and techniques for extracting, drying and smoking 5-MeO-DMT in his 1984 pamphlet: “Bufo alvarius: the Psychedelic Toad of the Sonoran Desert,” which he published privately under the pseudonym, Albert Most.**
Unwittingly, Mr. Nelson opened a Pandora’s box. Since then, a fabricated sacred mysticism has evolved around Incilius alvarius and the DMT squeezed from its glands. Despite the explicit wishes of Mr. Nelson, an ardent conservationist, who towards the end of his life expressed concerns about the ecological repercussions from misrepresentation of his work, use of 5-MeO-DMT has skyrocketed in recent years. Even though DMT can be fabricated in a lab with legal, commercially available chemical precursors, many practitioners – such as the retreat proprietor – adhere to a new age belief that there is something mystically special about DMT extracted from live toads.
I questioned the proprietor of the psychedelic retreat about the authenticity of his claims about 5-MeO-DMT. Why could he not use the lab-formulated version? Endangering the life of a wild animal in order to cure narcissism did not jive with his stated intentions. This fat little toad about the size of my hand was the embodiment of nature itself; and yet he as a Caucasian, self-styled psychedelic healer was exploiting it as a commodity. The toad had no say in its own destiny.
The proprietor responded by invoking an unknowable mystical consciousness with which he and his associates – the people responsible for collecting toad venom – were imbued. “We know what we are doing is for the good of humankind, in keeping with the sacred spirit of those who have preceded [us] in this practice,” he said. Those who collect the toad, he said, are performing a consecrated task. One of his practitioners, a Swedish man who guides DMT sessions at his retreats, described collection and use of the toad as a sacrament: “I only order [5-MeO-DMT] through sources I know,” he said. “It’s energy medicine, so the energy has to be right.” The source, he said, was a Mexican friend who has tribal connections and harvests the medicine directly. He would never use toads gathered the way he’d seen in videos – en masse and thrown in garbage bags.
“My sources milk toads once a year. They do it with respect and prayers. They put the toads back in the same location. They mark the toads so they don’t milk them several times.” Safety and purity, he said, were of the utmost importance.
Knowing what I know, the invocation of sacred ancestral spirits looked a lot like chicanery. The toad was the prima facie victim of narcissism.
Identification with the Divine as a way to aggrandize oneself out of personal responsibility is, unfortunately, an all-too-common maneuver in psychedelic circles. This reflexive hopscotch affords participants the luxury of justifying anything they do: their particular psychedelic experiences are so sacred and important, normal rules do not apply. Any rules, all rules – whether psychological, medical, scientific, or ethical.
“Piaget’s concepts of schema and assimilation (vs. accommodation) seem relevant for understanding many of the less desirable potential outcomes of psychedelic use, including worsened narcissism, spiritual bypassing, guruism, unethical business practice, and bad music taste,” noted psychotherapist Max Wolff wryly in a tweet.
Assimilation occurs when we modify received information to fit with our existing knowledge and assumptions. Accommodation occurs when we reshape our perceptions in response to problems posed by the environment. We restructure what we already know so that new information can enter our universes. In the psychedelic space, real learning is so rare it is nothing short of miraculous. Most of the time, psychedelic experiences are no more transformative than a day trip to Disneyland.
Although practitioners and hobbyists argue they don’t harm the toad when they milk its glands, Mr. Villa points out toads are harmed when they are handled and moved; and collecting and transporting the toads is tantamount to killing them. “They’re very territorial,” he said. “Imagine if someone picked you from your house, put you in a sack and then moved you to the Saudi Arabian desert and left you there. Would you survive? Would you know how to get home?”
The biggest impediment to toad conservation, said Mr. Villa, is the absence of real population data. “To identify the problem, we have to have a snapshot of the past, a baseline. We don’t have that.”
The toad’s life cycle itself presents a challenge to population assessment. For most of the year, mature adults live underground in a quiescent state. They emerge when it starts raining, and there’s a breeding frenzy. Adult toads are conspicuous for about a month, then they go underground again. Tadpoles can be seen swimming in surface ponds until they mature. If there’s a lengthy drought, the subterranean toads survive in a state of something like suspended animation for years, making live populations hard to count. Years can pass when very few are observed. A rainstorm, and there are thousands where there were none.
“We think they live a long time,” said Thomas R. Jones, Ph.D., Amphibians and Reptiles Program Manager for the Arizona Department of Game and Fish. “We don’t think three or even more years of poor rainfall affects the toads. They persist. When it finally rains, they come back out again,” he said.
The Arizona Department of Game and Fish has been monitoring a population at one site, but the data don’t account for the toads’ vast range, which stretches from the Sonoran desert in northern Mexico through Arizona and parts of New Mexico. Climate change, habitat destruction, and increased poaching add further obstacles. A local population in southeastern California was extirpated decades ago. None have been observed since the 1970s.
Counting their numbers does not address the fundamental problem with exploiting the toads, though, as reducing an amphibian member of the Sonoran desert ecosystem into raw material in service of a global supply chain is a moral travesty.
“Solutions most people conceive of as viable are implicitly biased by capitalism,” said Mr. Villa. “You might hear: ‘We’ll just breed them in captivity.’ In Hungary, there’s a small-scale operator doing it. Most captive breeding programs fail in some way.” There’s the problem of crowding, of waste water contamination, and of the captive animals becoming reservoirs for amphibian diseases like chytrid. The idea of breeding something to exploit is itself repugnant to Mr. Villa.
“There are more cogs than people really understand when it comes to this,” said Mr. Villa. “Few people have the ability to contemplate whether what they’re consuming is directly exploiting Indigenous people or an ecosystem. Does someone smoking 5-MeO-DMT in an east coast city consider whether they’re directly or indirectly exploiting someone down the supply chain?”
Chemists who formulate DMT have concluded there is no qualitative difference between psychedelic trips using the lab-made product and 5-MeO-DMT extracted from the toad’s parotid gland. Although the argument has been made that other compounds such as bufotenine, another tryptamine psychedelic found in low concentrations in some toad secretions, can contribute a certain je ne sais quoi to the experience, repeated testing of Incilius alvarius secretions yielded negligible bufotenine concentrations. There is no entourage effect. Furthermore, chemically and metabolically, formulated DMT is far purer. Samples of the dried toad secretion typically contain about 30 percent 5-MeO-DMT by mass. The remaining 70 percent is composed mostly of salts, proteins, and other high molecular weight chemicals. In other words, it’s saliva.
To suggest there’s anything special about 5-MeO-DMT flouts an established, well-respected component of the psychedelic tradition. More than any other factor, the subject’s own mindset – part of the psychedelic “set and setting” equation – determines how the trip goes.
5-MeO-DMT extracted from Incilius alvarius won’t cure narcissism. Projecting our spiritual expectations onto a toad only harms the toad.
*Goncalves de Lima, O. (1946). Observacio es sobre o “vinho de Jurema” utilizado pelos indios Pancaru’ de Tacaratu’ (Pernambuco) [Observations on the “vinho de Jurema” used by the Pancaru’ Indians of Tacaratu’ (Pernambuco)]. Ariquivos do Instituto de Pesquisas Agronomicas, 4, 45–80.
**Most, Albert. Bufo alvarius: the Psychedelic Toad of the Sonoran Desert. 1984; updated 2020. Venom Press. Denton, Texas. The 2020 updated edition contains detailed instructions for synthesizing DMT in a lab.
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle interviews clinical psychologist and integration facilitator (and now 3-time guest), Dr. Ido Cohen.
The topic of integration sits center stage for this discussion, as the two peel back all the nitty gritty and nuance of this psychedelic cornerstone, breaking down why integration is so important, where it stands currently, and where it needs to go as psychedelic-assisted therapy grows. They discuss the importance of taking it slow when it comes to exploration of these non-ordinary states – something that can be so difficult for us in our fast-tracked, clock-watching, Western culture, where it’s quite common for people to get blasted into inner-space on a Saturday, be shaken and perplexed by the experience on Sunday, and then have to go back to work and act like it never happened by Monday.
He discusses the value that both individual and group integration holds; what happens when you sit in groups of the same people over time; why Carl Jung never tried psychedelics; and the importance of tolerance, trust, and critical thinking when processing peak experiences.
And he raises some important questions like: What does long-term care in psychedelic-assisted therapy look like? What frameworks can be experimented with and implemented now to offer real movement from peak experiences to sustainable change? What is that bridge between peak experience and long-lasting change which allows us to become the insight? Is every insight true? Where does trauma work fit into this treatment? And what is the difference between symptom reduction and real healing?
“My mission has been: what does that bridge [look like] between experience and the steps that we have to take to really integrate in a deep embodied way to move from, ‘Oh, I can become this thing’ or ‘I have this insight’ to becoming the insight or becoming the thing?”
“I always use this catchphrase because I don’t like it, but it sells the psychedelic science: ten years of therapy in one session. I always say if you get ten years of therapy in one psychedelic session, then you had really bad therapy.”
“The psyche has an organic life. It opens up in the way it opens up. You can bathe yourself in ayahuasca and eat fifty grams of mushrooms per week [but] there are certain processes you can’t rush.”
“It’s funny how when we slow down, things become clearer faster.”
Psychedelics Today: Ido Cohen – Re-Turn to Wholeness: Jung and Integration
Psychedelics Today: PT271 – Jeremy Narby, Ph.D. – Anthropology, Ayahuasca, and Plant Teachers
Psychedelics Today: Katherine MacLean – Imagining Interesting Future
Psychedelics Today: PT305 – Emma Farrell – Plant Spirits, Entities, and Remembering Lost Traditions
Socials: Instagram / The Integration Circle Instagram
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews Kathryn L. Tucker, JD: Special Counsel at Emerge Law Group, where she Co-Chairs the Psychedelic Practice Group.
Tucker has had a 35-year career in advocacy and protecting rights of terminally ill patients, serving as lead counsel in three landmark federal cases around constitutional rights and dying. Most recently, she was part of the team responsible for enacting Oregon’s groundbreaking Measure 109.
She discusses the mechanics of how access to psychedelic medicine works under the Right to Try act; how she feels about decriminalization vs. legalization and how it all relates to what she’s seen in the field of death and dying; what she’s excited about in Oregon; and how measures in Colorado could take things even further.
While synthetic psilocybin is the only “investigational drug” offered under Right to Try, naturally-derived psilocybin and MDMA could be an option sooner than we think – but based on the DEA’s behavior so far, that will only happen if more people join the fight, as it’s been over a year with no answer on how the DEA would be enabling psilocybin access to patients under the Right to Try act. To help push this along, Tucker welcomes donations, but more importantly, she invites activists everywhere to “shine the bright light of public scrutiny” on the insulting inaction of perhaps the government’s most ineffective agency. There’s a clear path here where everyone wins, so please, call your state’s elected officials and demand that they actually do their job.
“Part of what’s been so frustrating, of course, is when we satisfied ourselves as attorneys, that the state and federal right to try laws did in fact apply to psilocybin and that it should be accessible for therapeutic use with patients with advanced illness; when we approached the DEA to inquire how it would enable that access, that inquiry was in January of last year, 2021, so we’re now more than a year later and the DEA is still obstructing access.”
“To absolutely prohibit access, when state and federal law are intended to allow access; that is impermissible. …These dying patients could have immediate, substantial, and sustained relief from debilitating anxiety and depression. That’s what all the studies show, and I’ll say those words again because they’re the words that really caught my attention: immediate, substantial, and sustained relief. And why anyone would obstruct access to that kind of relief for a dying patient is impossible to comprehend.”
“I would just as soon not need to return to court, although I think our merits arguments are incredibly strong. I’d much rather see the DEA just adopt an attitude of: ‘Everyone can win here. Our interest in diversion protection can be addressed, the patient’s need for relief can be permitted and everyone can declare victory and go home.’”
Emergelawgroup.com: Kathryn Tucker Article archive
Thenowaksociety.org: Right to Try Psilocybin Advocacy Fund (where to donate)
The Right to Try act
Lucid.news: Terminally Ill Patients Fight for Access to Psilocybin Under Federal “Right to Try” Act
Northstar.guide (the Northstar Pledge)
Hereandnowstudios.com: We Will Call it PALA
Health Canada’s recent SAP revision brings a new opportunity for patients and a clear responsibility for prescribers.
Health Canada’s recent decision to include psychedelic medicines in its Special Access Program (SAP) was met with a lot of fanfare. The SAP amendment brings good news for certain patients – specifically, treatment-resistant patients suffering from serious mental health conditions that impact individuals, families, and communities.
The new federal amendment has the potential to fill a critical gap for patients in need, including those suffering from depression, PTSD, and end-of-life anxiety. Many who suffer from mental health conditions don’t respond fully to current treatments, so there is a significant unmet need for safer and more effective therapies. The change to Health Canada’s SAP now allows physicians, clinics and hospitals to apply for previously restricted drugs for medical use, providing a new option for the patients who need it most.
I applaud the federal government for responding to the grave situation of the patients who aren’t responding to otherwise adequate treatment – and for recognizing the encouraging clinical data around psychedelic-assisted therapy. This SAP revision represents one small but important step on the road to greater access to psychedelic medicine.
Like most opportunities, this one comes with considerable responsibility. Failure to act responsibly could cause harm to individuals and to this evolving area of medicine. However, I believe that the community of experts in psychedelic medicine are ready and willing to support the practitioners who will be administering these therapies to patients.
Health Canada’s SAP revision adds certain psychedelics, including MDMA and psilocybin, to the list of restricted substances that practitioners can request to treat patients in specific situations. Decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis, and will be reserved for serious treatment-resistant or life-threatening conditions, in instances where other therapies have failed, or are unsuitable or not available in Canada.
The recent amendment reverses regulatory changes made almost a decade ago that prohibited access to restricted drugs (including psychedelics). Historically, practitioners in Canada have been able to apply for unlicensed medications only through Health Canada’s Section 56 exemption – a fairly long and restrictive process. The SAP revision is expected to provide a much quicker review and more rapid access for approved patients.
Obviously, the SAP amendment will not bring broad access to psychedelic medicine in Canada, but ideally will help treatment-resistant patients, and serves as a clear signal that the government is acknowledging the potential of psychedelic medicine as a legitimate treatment option.
To me, the government’s decision to include psychedelics in Canada’s SAP is a key acknowledgement that mental health conditions are being placed on the same footing as physical conditions, and frankly, that’s a shift that’s long overdue. Anyone working in mental health can see that treatment-resistant mental illness is indeed a serious or life-threatening condition, analogous to cancer that hasn’t responded to conventional treatment. But mental health disorders aren’t always viewed with that sense of urgency.
I’ve dedicated a good part of my medical career to raising awareness and advocating for changes in the treatment of mental health issues. I spent more than 30 years as a medical officer and psychiatrist in the Canadian Armed Forces, deploying twice and leading mental health programs in Afghanistan. I served as mental health advisor to the Canadian Forces surgeon general, and led initiatives with Canada and NATO as we explored innovative solutions in mental health. Achieving change in attitudes toward mental health and treatment innovation requires considerable effort and persistence.
We’ve seen modest improvement in mental health care over the years. However, I firmly believe we need to do better in this arena. Far superior advances have been made in the treatment of cancer, heart disease, and many other conditions that take an enormous toll on society and represent a significant medical and economic burden.
Yet in the field of mental health, so many patients continue to suffer without adequate or effective treatment. We must review the data while being mindful that each file or data point represents a person who is struggling. We must work to develop medicines with better results, realizing that mental health disorders affect not only patients, but their families and loved ones, their careers and communities.
During my time as the Chief of Psychiatry, I have experienced firsthand the enormous impact that trauma can have on soldiers and veterans. From mass graves in Rwanda to the battlefields of Kandahar, it’s difficult to see people who are putting their lives on the line to protect their country return home to treatments that will only work for half of them.
So the onus is on us to look for better solutions, to refuse to be satisfied with the status quo and to embrace ALL positive steps forward. In Canada, the inclusion of psychedelics in the SAP is one of those steps. That’s progress worth celebrating.
A growing body of evidence continues to demonstrate that psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies are emerging as a successful treatment option in many indications, from treatment-resistant depression to smoking and alcohol addiction to PTSD, anxiety, and OCD.
In the area of smoking cessation, Dr. Matthew Johnson and his team at Johns Hopkins are planning new studies to build on his team’s ongoing research, including the first government-funded clinical study in 50 years evaluating a psychedelic for therapeutic use. The team’s earlier study reported that 80% of participants who received psychedelic-assisted therapy remained abstinent from smoking at 6 months and 67% remained abstinent at 12 months. Those encouraging results show strong efficacy, and demonstrate clear progress.
We see positive data in other indications as well, including PTSD. MAPS is currently sponsoring MAPP2, the second of two Phase 3 trials studying MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD. In the first Phase 3 study, 88% of participants with severe PTSD experienced a clinically-significant reduction in PTSD diagnostic scores two months after their third session of MDMA-assisted therapy, compared to 60% of placebo participants. Additionally, 67% of participants in the MDMA group (compared to 32% of participants in the placebo group) no longer met the criteria for PTSD remission two months after the sessions.
When governmental and regulatory agencies endorse the positive early results of new, transformative treatments, we can celebrate this success. And when organizations dedicate funding for continued research in our field, we applaud those decisions. We can use every bit of incremental progress as adrenaline to keep gathering evidence, and to use that evidence as our guide as we expand treatment options and promote best practices in administering them.
As Canada implements its recent change, the responsibility lies with clinicians and regulatory bodies to be very deliberate and safe in the way we use the SAP program. We must ensure that patient selection is based on science, and principles such as informed consent are followed.
I encourage doctors and patients considering these new treatment modalities to review the available research and have open, honest conversations with one another to determine if psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy is right for them. These are far from being first-line treatments and we must continue to turn to approved evidence-based treatments first.
Here’s the government’s process for requesting drugs through the SAP:
To administer psychedelic-assisted therapy under Health Canada’s SAP, healthcare professionals must fill out an application, which will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.
The SAP considers a “healthcare professional” someone who:
Practitioners who receive approval can then request products from manufacturers that meet governmental requirements.
A few examples of questions asked in the application:
“What specifically about this drug makes it the best choice for your patient(s)?”
“Specify all treatments tried and/or failed…”
A request to provide references/evidence:
A question for a request for a repeat patient:
The final section:
How progressive or cautious will Health Canada be in reviewing and approving requests? That remains to be seen. But as a physician, my advice is clear: The practitioners who seek permission to use these medicines should ensure that they have the necessary training, competence, and confidence to provide these treatments safely and successfully.
The innovators in our field are scientists, doctors, and advisors offering extensive experience with psychedelic compounds, as well as mental health and addiction disorders. We must step up and support physicians who want to prescribe these treatments, but who might not have experience implementing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. We can provide evidence-based research, education on proper protocols, and access to experienced psychedelic integration specialists to answer questions every step of the way.
My message is simple: Let’s do this right. Let’s do this safely.
The SAP should not be considered an alternative to integrating psychedelic-assisted therapy into existing medical practices. Rather, it provides help for those who qualify for use in exceptional circumstances under the SAP guidelines. It’s a step forward, but it’s not a solution.
Psilocybin and MDMA-based therapies are successful with specific indications and patient profiles. We need to continue gathering data to demonstrate safety and efficacy through clinical trials targeting specific indications. That’s the path to obtain regulatory approval of psychedelics with therapy protocols. Psychedelics must undergo the same rigor as any other medication vying for approval from regulatory bodies. We need to continue the work that will lead to an environment of safe, regulated access to psychedelic therapy in a medical setting. That takes patience, but will pay off in the long run.
Ultimately, the millions of patients afflicted with serious mental illness will benefit most when they have access to more advanced, more effective therapies than those on the market today. We truly see success when medical communities view psychedelic medicine as an accepted and adopted form of treatment within our existing healthcare infrastructure.
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle interviews Dr. Devon Christie: Senior Lead of Psychedelic Programs with Numinus Wellness, clinical instructor, counselor, and Co-Investigator and study therapist for a Canadian MAPS-sponsored trial investigating MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD.
Christie talks about the importance of biomedical ethics and the unique considerations of psychedelic-assisted therapy: how psychedelics enhance the vulnerability and suggestibility in a well-established power dynamic, and how being aware of your power and biases is of the utmost importance towards not influencing your patient’s experience. They discuss just how much that experience is affected by every detail of preparation, and how it’s a very thin line between scaring someone off, setting impossible expectations, or even giving away too much of the experience (and with limitless possibilities, is that even possible?).
And she talks about the complications of touch and establishing (and honoring) informed consent; how true mindfulness can cultivate a greater capacity for self-regulation; how to handle situations where the client wants to know if a memory is real or not; the idea of psychedelics as a placebo; and many other complicated therapeutic concepts like harm of neglect, undue influence, making pleasure a virtue, cultivating agency, combating physician burnout, and the expectation effect.
“We don’t really know, but there may be aspects of psychedelics and their impacts that may make them ultimately like super placebos.”
“From my training as a relational somatic therapist, it’s actually not about the facts or details of what happened that matter. In fact, we can resolve trauma without even recollection of facts or details because we’re working with how it shows up in the body and how it’s showing up emotionally. …We can assist that process through working with what’s actually emergent in the felt experience and not needing to stay adherent to the narrative around it.”
“I think the yardstick on how far we’re going with this psychedelic work is that, either personally in our own journeys or even in the folks we’re supporting, we’re getting to a place where we don’t need the psychedelics – where the psychedelics have given us a reference, they’ve opened up new vistas of possibility, they’ve helped us to approach our lives differently, such that we are now cultivating the quality of presence and the quality of investigation and curiosity and flexibility and all those things that psychedelics can bring us – in our ordinary lives. …We’ve got these tools and they can help us learn and they can help us connect, and then hopefully we can come full circle and we can drop the tools and just be able to live meaningful lives that are sustaining for ourselves and for each other.”
Healing Moments in Psychotherapy, Edited by Daniel J. Siegel and Marion F. Solomon
PT297 – Laura Mae Northrup, LMFT – Radical Healership in a Profit-Driven World
Devon is passionate about educating future psychedelic therapists on trauma-informed, relational somatic skills. She also teaches for the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) Certificate Program in Psychedelic Therapy and Research, the Integrative Psychiatry Institute Certificate Program in Psychedelic Assisted Therapy, and the ONCA Foundation Psychedelic Therapy program.
Socials: Instagram / Facebook
Numinus: Instagram / Facebook / Twitter
In this episode of the podcast, Joe interviews Adam Bramlage: Founder and CEO of Flow State Micro, a functional mushroom company and microdosing educational platform.
Bramlage talks about his journey to psychedelics and discovery of microdosing, and how he worries that the troubling issues he saw in the legal cannabis industry are already finding their way into the psychedelic space. He discusses what he experienced when he started microdosing; how he connected with James Fadiman; how he defines microdosing; the concepts of neurogenesis and a gut-brain axis; how more and more professional athletes are using psychedelics to heal brain injuries as well as optimize performance (and how leagues may handle this going forward); concerns over chronic microdosing; and why the goal is always to microdose less over time.
While we expected to hear about the benefits of microdosing, their conversation also goes deep into its history and our ancestral connection to psychedelics (particularly psilocybin), touching on Hernán Cortés; R. Gordan Wasson banking for the vatican; Christianity, Jesus, and mushrooms; repeated examples of control through the erasure of history; Tim Leary; Al Hubbard; MKUltra; the Tarahumara Indians’ peyote-influenced ultra-running; cave paintings; Whitey Bulger, and more.
Bramlage is a speaker on May 27th’s Microdosing Summit (along with Joe), and just released a new “Microdosing Movement Masterclass” in collaboration with the San Francisco Psychedelic Society, which focuses on our ancestral connection to psychedelics and the potential evolutionary use of microdosing. Use code psychedelicstoday at checkout for 10% off!
“I’m a single dad to two kids, and both of those kids, at periods of time in their life, were raised on a cannabis farm. And what I’ll tell you is this: when you normalize these plants and these tools and it’s just like a flower or a squash that my kid sees farmed like the farmer next to me, my kids want nothing to do with cannabis. It is so uncool. It’s the last thing they want to be around. I don’t have any worries about my son or daughter smoking pot. And why? Because we normalized it. And if you look at Portugal and what they’ve done with drugs and the success they’ve had with decrim legalization, supporting substance abuse issues with therapists and programs; this is the future. This is the answer.”
“We have an ancestral and evolutionary connection to these plants and it’s only in the last couple hundred years that they’ve been made illegal and bastardized. …We’re putting five or six year old kids on Adderall (which is methamphetamine), but we’re pointing fingers at a parent who gives their kid 10 milligrams of a mushroom.”
“Psychedelics have an afterglow, or a 48-hour effect, so you don’t need to microdose seven days a week. You can take it on a Monday, take Tuesday off, and you’re still getting benefits. So what I see over time with microdosing is the more people use it, the less they need it. This isn’t a Western medical model of: you’re going to take microdoses five days a week because it regulates your blood pressure and your heart condition. It’s not like that. This is more like: the more people are microdosing over time, the less they need it. …When I’m coaching people or working with clients, the goal is to eventually not microdose.”
Psychedelicsocietysf.org: The Microdosing Movement Masterclass
Microdosing Summit: May 27th (International Microdosing Day)
Doubleblindmag.com: “How to Microdose” class
The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico, by Miguel Leon-Portilla
The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross, by John M. Allegro
The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name, by Brian C. Muraresku
Trippingly.net: Al Hubbard: The Original Captain Trips
Ultrarunninghistory.com: The Tarahumara Ultrarunners
Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, by Mike Crowley
Gnosticwarrior.com: Whitey Bulger: Crime Boss Said CIA Gave Him LSD in Mind Control Experiment
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle interviews clinical psychologist, author, and researcher, Dr. Adele Lafrance.
Lafrance developed Emotion-Focused Family Therapy, which focuses on the role of the family in psychedelic work. Realizing that the healing process disrupts systems and that dealing with a loved one who is going through a massive shift can be quite challenging for their loved ones, the idea behind EFFT is teaching family and significant others emotion-processing and behavioral support skills, how to make therapeutic apologies, how to recognize defensiveness and not react in a knee-jerk way, and how to find problematic caregiving problems where families accommodate for mental health issues (and therefore perpetuate them). While not typical for adults to involve significant others or family in therapeutic processes, she has found that if done correctly, it can be extremely helpful.
She talks about anger: how we struggle with expressions of anger, the idea of healthy anger, and the ways psychedelics can help us move from rejecting anger to assertion. And she discusses the Hoffman Process; emotion coaching; the power of validation; similarities between EFFT and IFS; rolling with resistance; tips to incorporate family into therapy more; the concept of a shame hangover and checking in on “tomorrow you”; and that even with all the preparation in the world, there’s no way to adequately prepare someone for the vast array of possibilities within (and after) a psychedelic experience.
In addition to being one of the faculty of Vital (reminder that applications close on March 27th), Dr. Lafrance has a 4-Part, CE-approved EFFT Core Clinician Training course that begins April 4th. Click here for details.
“As a culture, we really, really struggle with healthy expressions of anger, both in delivering them and in receiving them, so we end up having these unconscious contracts with our loved ones where there’s this unspoken rule that we don’t …speak up for ourselves when we feel like things aren’t going okay, and both parties can be ‘okay’ with that. And one thing that psychedelics does …is that they help us connect to our healthy assertion, as a byproduct of the cultivation of self-love.”
“The paradox of rolling with resistance is that that’s exactly the most efficient route to releasing resistance.”
“There’s actually no way to adequately prepare for what might come. And so I’ve incorporated that – this idea [that] there could be major shifts that are highly disruptive, you might reconnect to old memories that you completely lost connection to that are not pleasant and that will shake your world, or, you can have an experience of self-love that helps clarify your path forward in your career, and anything in between. …We don’t know what can happen. We don’t know. It can be a smooth re-entry, or it can feel like your life blows up, and you need to be prepared for that. What I do know, though, is that it is way more likely that anything that happens will be in the service of creating a more aligned life for you. That, I do feel comfortable saying.”
“Integrity is about doing your ultimate best, being supported, asking for help, and then when you fall down, you pick yourself back up, you learn from your mistakes, and then you teach others.”
DrAdeleLafrance.com: The Love Project
Clinicaltrials.gov: Psilocybin as a Treatment for Anorexia Nervosa: A Pilot Study
Chacruna.net: Ayahuasca and the Power of Forgiveness
Chacruna.net: Love and Psychedelic Psychotherapy: Bridging the Divide
DrAdeleLafrance.com: Events (4-Part, CE-approved EFFT Core Clinician Training/equivalent 2-Day Training with Dr. Adele Lafrance begins April 4th)
Sciencedirect.com: MDMA-assisted therapy significantly reduces eating disorder symptoms in a randomized placebo-controlled trial of adults with severe PTSD
Psychedelics Today: Rapid Depression Remission and the “Therapeutic Bends” with Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy
Adele is also leader in the research and practice of psychedelic medicine, with a focus on ayahuasca, MDMA, psilocybin and ketamine. Currently, she is the clinical investigator and strategy lead for the MAPS-sponsored MDMA-assisted psychotherapy study for eating disorders and a collaborator/clinical support on the Imperial College study for psilocybin and anorexia nervosa. She is a founding member of the Love Project.
In last week’s blog, Ed Prideaux told us everything we know (and don’t) about Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD), visual snow syndrome, and flashbacks. In part 2, he addresses ways to deal with the distress of having HPPD and ways to reduce the risk of developing it in the first place.
The real “problem” with HPPD is distress: anxiety, depression, isolation, panic, and the unhelpful coping mechanisms people can develop to overcome these (alcoholism and drug dependency are sadly common among HPPD patients). Remember, this distress is what technically defines HPPD.
Many people live with significant visual changes and do not find them distressing – rather, they may be sources of enjoyment, “free trips,” artistic inspiration, or purposefully leaned into as part of spiritual or occult practice. The world looking different doesn’t necessarily mean you have a problem.
If you’re currently experiencing HPPD, though, overcoming the distress should probably be your first priority. Speaking crudely, once the distress is overcome, the visuals can more or less “take care of themselves.” With less distress, there is less fixation. With less fixation, there is less noticing. With less noticing, the visuals are less noticeable. They may rapidly normalize, filter in the background, and can disappear unexpectedly with time.
Medication and clinical help:
Many in the HPPD community have found relief in the use (especially in the short-term) of medications including Lamotrigine and Klonopin. They can bring visuals and anxiety way down, though some report their symptoms getting worse. They can always bring side effects, too, so some caution is advised.
Do not be surprised, either, if clinicians have not heard of HPPD. It is little-known and poorly-understood. It may be useful to refer your clinician to the Information Guide included on the Perception Restoration Foundation’s website.
Healthy lifestyle changes:
Many HPPD patients report the decline and resolution of their symptoms – or otherwise acceptance and returning to “normal” life after avoiding further drug-taking, exercising regularly, cutting out processed foods, or trying specific elimination diets.
Noting Triggers:
Pay attention to your triggers and act accordingly. Visuals and other HPPD symptoms can surface in response to:
You should also pay special attention to how your condition manifests beyond visuals, in particular, if you are experiencing Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder. More than visuals, it’s often the case that people’s distress comes from DP/DR, and a rich body of literature and therapeutic approaches have been explored for this condition.
Community: You can seek community from others, such as groups on Facebook, or the forums at HPPDOnline.com, r/HPPD, or r/visualsnow. However, tread cautiously around spending too much time on these forums. They can be extremely negative, and cause people to spiral and fixate on their perceptual changes.
Mindfulness meditation: The stress reduction and relaxation effects of meditation are well-established; many report breaking the cycle of visual fixation through learning to hone their attention.
Cognitive techniques: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) may be useful for accepting and reframing perceptual changes. Challenging the internal beliefs triggered by HPPD could reduce both distress and the visuals – in particular, the beliefs that patients are “brain damaged,” “weird,” “isolated,” or a “casualty.”
Psychedelic integration: Introspection, journaling, and (if you can find and afford it) specialist, psychedelic-informed counseling can be helpful. In particular, you may benefit from exploring the particular details and events of what may have caused HPPD to originally materialize.
Somatic approaches: Certain somatic/bodily therapies have proven helpful for people with Visual Snow Syndrome. This includes the use of acupuncture, muscle relaxation techniques, neck massage, and specific dietary interventions.
Reframing: It may be helpful to learn that many people are not troubled by their perceptual changes. Again, they can be just a “thing” – how one sees now – that’s different, and not necessarily bad. Other people actively enjoy their perceptual changes or view them in a spiritual way, such as glimpsing auras, having broadened the possibility of the mind, or in seeing the intrinsic shakiness of ordinary experience.
Without a deep, embodied grounding for your reframing, though, it can be hazardous. Make sure the frame is not just “in your head,” but truly held across your entire mind and body in a felt way. Don’t gaslight yourself into enjoying your perceptual changes if they are actually disturbing you.
There is reason to suspect that the immediate period after a trip – say, one-to-five days – is important. This is because the brain is still neuroplastic and affected by psychedelics for up to a week (or longer) after the trip. And HPPD may be understood as a problem of “resetting” one’s brain back into its ordinary perceptual categories after the shock of a psychedelic experience.
If you want to avoid HPPD, what matters is ensuring that your perception re-transitions to its prior sober state safely. In this one-to-five day period, it may be advised, then, to:
Have you optimized your set and setting?
HPPD seems to be more likely after bad trips or challenging experiences – the likelihood of which strongly depends on how people organize their set and setting. In particular, stress and trauma going into a psychedelic experience may be a trigger for HPPD experiences, even at low dose (and microdose) levels.
Have you experienced some unusual visuals before?
HPPD patients may have had a higher-than-normal experience of certain visual oddities, which are rare parts of normal perception. In particular, phenomena like visual snow, halos, after-images, floaters, and colors in the dark may suggest an underlying tendency in perception that could be triggered by a psychedelic drug to be more intense.
Have you tested your drug? If so, what drug are you taking?
HPPD may be more likely with Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPSs) and Research Chemicals (RCs) with more unpredictable, less-researched, and possibly neurotoxic effects. Adulterants in street drugs may also have neurotoxic and other risky properties.
It seems that long-acting psychedelics like LSD are more likely to cause HPPD. While LSD may have certain advantages over other psychedelics subjective to each user, someone very conscious of developing HPPD (at least compared to other risks) may wish to avoid LSD in favor of a shorter-acting psychedelic.
How often are you tripping?
Taking lots of psychedelics frequently is likely to be correlated with a higher risk of developing HPPD. This can be explained in a number of ways:
For more, this article’s tips, advice, analysis (and more) is also featured in a more in-depth HPPD Information Guide, which can be freely downloaded from the Perception Restoration Foundation’s website, where a more direct guide for those struggling with HPPD is also hosted. Owing to the tentative nature of our HPPD knowledge base, the PRF invites any and all comments and criticisms for the Guide at info@perception.foundation, and any worthwhile amendments will be quickly published.
In this episode of the podcast, David interviews Chief of Staff, Head of Operations, and “Chief Cheerleader Officer” at Nue Life, Kabir Ali.
Ali speaks about the power of ketamine-assisted therapy and how his first ketamine treatment made him overcome 10 years of addiction and depression (and realize what caused it). He talks about addiction: his struggles, how people can have these relationships with anything, concerns over the addictive properties of ketamine, and the importance of having the right people in your corner – especially when using a substance to overcome another. And he talks about the lack of education in mental health he’s seen in his travels, how our current society seems to be driving us to escape, and how self-love (and the authenticity and freedom that comes from it) is one of the most overlooked and wonderful gifts of psychedelic-assisted therapy.
And he discusses Nue Life: how the clinicians he works with are magical people, the benefits he’s seen from integration work in group settings, the health coaching they’ve made a large part of their program, what he’s most excited about, and why he views Nue Life as a next-gen mental health company rather than a ketamine clinic.
“We’re certainly living in a space today where our environment is pushing us to escape. It doesn’t necessarily feel safe. There’s a lack of certainty in our social landscape over here today. And whenever I come by someone who is struggling with addiction, whether it’s someone that I am mentoring or personally coaching, it’s quite apparent that we cannot underestimate the value or the impact of our environment.”
“That self-compassion, that self-love: it’s one of the most, I think, overlooked gifts of these treatments.”
“The biggest gift, again, is that self-compassion, that self-care, that self-love. But the authenticity and the freedom that comes through these discoveries or through these experiences that we share with psychedelics; that’s one thing that I think we, at times, look over, which is: what is it that you are actually walking away with when you embark on a journey with plant medicines or with ketamine? And that’s just really the authenticity that you just touched upon right now, and that is that liberating feeling where we can actually go ahead and pursue and live the lives that we once had, or perhaps, lead a life that we never knew that we could lead.”
Lovediscovery.org: Dr. Carolina Pataky
Nue Life socials: Instagram / Facebook / Twitter
In this episode of Vital Psychedelic Conversations, Kyle and David interview the author of No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model, and the creator of the IFS model itself: Dr. Richard C. Schwartz.
If you aren’t familiar with the Internal Family Systems model, this podcast serves as a great introduction, as Schwartz discusses how it came about and what it entails; how he views the Self; how IFS relates to the body; exiles, managers, and firefighters; the 8 Cs of self-leadership qualities; how to address the actions of one’s different parts; and how often people in psychedelic-assisted therapy sessions find themselves naturally thinking within the IFC framework. He believes that the different parts of the mind each have valuable qualities and resources, and psychedelics (and other non-ordinary states of consciousness) can help to re-harmonize the damaged parts, therefore allowing the Self to do its job as the inner healer.
He also talks about the importance of preparation and facilitators knowing their own parts; his psychedelic history and why he’s no longer afraid of death; what he strives for in integration work; the 5 Ps facilitators need; Sandra Watanabe’s concept of a “cast of characters”; soul retrieval; starling murmuration; and the Pixar movie, “Inside Out.”
“[Michael Mithoefer) kept track of how often, spontaneously, the subjects would start doing IFS without any coaching from the facilitators, and in the high-dose MDMA [studies], 80% would start working with parts spontaneously. And that felt very validating to me, like I had just stumbled onto a process that people naturally do once they access enough Self.”
“There are times where you just can’t convince these protective parts to let us get to an exile and heal it. And a psychedelic session can expedite that pretty easily, it seems.”
“For me, there is a big SELF, with all capitals, that’s kind of like the ocean, and then we’re a drop of that ocean – there’s a piece of that that’s in each of us that I’m calling the Self with a capital S. And when we take ketamine and we leave [our bodies], we’re actually going back into that ocean. And there’s a lot of bliss, at least for me. I mean, there [were] a few moments that weren’t so blissful, but much of it was just– I came back, and I say this and people find it hard to believe, but I have no fear of death now. I just know that it’s a transition into that ocean.”
“I think the psychedelic world has been conditioned by a kind of passivity approach to being present with people and just trusting their own process. And that can do a certain amount of good, but you’re also missing the opportunities [for] doing some really deep healing.”
IFS-institute.com: Richard C. Schwartz, Ph.D. – Bio and Appearances
SandraIngerman.com: Soul Retrieval
Psychedelics Today: Psychedelics and The Shadow: The Shadow Side of Psychedelia
Goodtherapy.org: Gestalt Therapy
Springer.com: Cast of characters work: Systemically exploring the naturally organized personality
Dau.edu: Debono’s Six Thinking Hats
Birdfact.com: Starling Murmuration: A Complete Guide
FoundationIFS.org: Make a donation
Internal Family Systems socials: Instagram / Facebook / Twitter