Research Archives

June 3, 2026June 3, 2026

Three Brain Injuries, One Iboga Protocol, and What It Tells Us

A new case series in Frontiers in Pharmacology is going to circulate widely in psychedelic circles. Three people with lasting symptoms after a brain injury went through a six-week iboga microdosing protocol paired with therapy. Two improved and held those gains. One had less impressive gains, but still improved despite adverse events in their life.

Before this paper get flattened into “iboga heals brain injury,” it helps to read what the paper actually says. The authors are careful.

Since there are special risks with Iboga, we should be too.

What the study did

Burton Tabaac, Robin Carhart-Harris, and Teresa Yung followed three patients through a participant-directed protocol using whole Tabernanthe Iboga root bark. Not isolated ibogaine, which is the drug most clinics use. Lab testing put the material at about 3.8% ibogaine by mass.

Patients dosed four days on, three days off, for six weeks. The daily amount ran from 0.1 to 1.0 grams of root bark, which the authors estimate at 3.8 to 38.5 mg of ibogaine-equivalent. Each met weekly for Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP), a body-focused, relationship-centered approach. Supplements and lifestyle changes were also part of the protocol.

The three patients were a 43-year-old man with post-concussive symptoms after a motorcycle crash; a 40-year-old woman with seven years of headaches and brain fog after oxygen loss during an avalanche burial; and a 19-year-old woman with post-concussive symptoms after a car crash.

What happened

The first two did great, though the paper is careful to grade them differently. The man’s case it calls substantial improvement. He went from multiple daily anger outbursts and near-daily headaches to no outbursts and headaches every few months. He came off all his medications. He described himself as “better than ever, and better than before the accident.”

The 40 year old woman is the person the paper declares having complete symptom resolution. She stopped an antidepressant she had taken for twenty years. Her brain fog cleared. She said she felt like she was “living back in her own brain.” Both held their gains at long-term follow-up.

A timeline note matters here. This patient had also used psilocybin and LSD on her own, starting in 2021, and she credited LSD with part of her cognitive recovery. That use ran years before the iboga protocol began in late 2024, and she did not take either during the active treatment weeks. So it is not a case of mixing drugs in the moment. It is a reminder that she arrived with a psychedelic history the paper says shaped her baseline.

The third patient is perhaps the most interesting case. She sourced her own iboga and followed a protocol like her father’s, who had used it for his own TBI. And for a while, she improved a lot. She went from describing herself as “feeling drunk 90% of the time” to about 45% symptomatic. Her emotional volatility dropped by roughly 70%, a change her father confirmed. Nausea, vertigo, and hand numbness resolved completely. Headaches fell from several a week to one self-resolving episode in a month. Then, at her June follow-up, headaches, mood swings and cognitive fatigue came back . The authors say so directly, noting her path “may partially reflect the expected natural recovery curve” of mild TBI.

What the case series can’t show

This is simply a case series. It covers the experience of three people. It helps raise questions and can’t be seen as proof that iboga caused anything. Too many things were happening at once to credit any single one, not to mention the small sample size.

It was never iboga alone. The protocol paired the plant material with six weeks of Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy, a structured somatic approach that does real therapeutic work on its own. AEDP is not a background variable here. It is a core part of the treatment, which is exactly the problem for anyone trying to credit the iboga. When a serious psychotherapy, a ritualistic frame, supplements, and a strong expectation of getting better all run at once, you cannot clearly see what the plant is responsible for. The second patient’s earlier psychedelic history similarly reflects how messy real world case studies can be.

This shouldn’t undercut the value. We suspect that this case series is tremendously important.

Most concussion symptoms fade on their own. Even long-running cases can improve without treatment. The 19-year-old was three months out from her injury when starting microdosing which is well inside the window where people often get better. The two strong responders had carried their symptoms for years, and standard care had not moved them. That contrast is an essential part of the story.

A word about the dose

“Microdosing protocol” suggests something very specific, which is not the case. The daily range spanned a full order of magnitude, from about 3.8 to 38.5 mg of ibogaine-equivalent, and patients largely chose their own dose inside it. One person’s “microdose” could have been ten times another’s.

That range deserves attention, because dose is where iboga’s risk lives. Ibogaine can stretch the heart’s electrical cycle, called the QT interval. This can happe in a way that can trigger fatal heart rhythms, and the danger climbs with the amount in the body. The authors screened for heart problems and dangerous drug interactions, which is generally recognized as essential when working with this plant and it’s most famous molecule.

A tenfold, self-directed spread on dose is hard to study and harder to reproduce. Two people following “the same protocol” may not be running the same experiment. I personally find merit in the approach, given my experience, but understand why some might want more dose specific research, which I hope we’ll see sooner than later.

It also muddies the comparison to the veterans that the late Nolan Williams at Stanford studied, who each got a single weight-based flood dose under medical monitoring. The authors know this dose problem is substantial and list standardized dosing as a top priority for future work.

To counterpoint to all this caution, at Psychedelics Today, we have not seen a single report of a serious cardiac event from an iboga microdosing protocol. This is obviously not proof of safety. We might just not be hearing about it. Microdosing happens quietly, outside any system that would track a problem.

Ibogaine’s cardiac risk seems to rise with the amount in your body. A few milligrams a day is not the same load as a single flood dose, so it stands to reason the heart risk is lower. Lower risk is not no risk, which is why the screening in this paper still matters.

How it fits the larger iboga picture

Many readers will think of the Stanford work in veterans with traumatic brain injury. That study used a single high “flood” dose of magnesium-ibogaine and reported large drops in PTSD, depression, and disability. A later imaging paper from the same group went into new territory by using brain scans before and after treatment. The researchers found lasting increases in blood flow across the cortex and deeper brain regions, plus reorganized connections across brain networks. The blood-flow gains in the left insula and anterior cingulate (different parts of the human brain) tracked with reduced disability. Reduced blood flow is a known signature of brain injury, so this showed measured repair, not just symptom relief.

The two studies are near mirror images. Flood dose against microdose. A research clinic against a self-directed outpatient protocol. Pure molecule plus-magnesium against whole root bark. These papers come at the same question from opposite ends of the dosing range which makes the case series worth deeply considering.

Almost all the serious iboga science to date has used a single high dose, given once. This series asks a different question: what happens if you give small repeated doses over weeks, alongside structured therapy? We still don’t know the answer, and three uncontrolled cases do not provide it. But the question is a legitimate one, and it is new a newish and edgy conversation happening in psychedelic circles, at least in the USA. A weak study can still point at a good hypothesis. The value here is the study design ideas the patient outcomes are suggesting.

What might be driving it

The authors offer a possible mechanism and hold it loosely. The lead idea is neuroplasticity. In rodents, ibogaine raises growth factors like GDNF and BDNF in brain circuits tied to repair, and the thought is that a sustained microdosing window might push a brain with a stall in repair to remodel, with therapy shaping where that growth goes. They also note that a concussion’s mechanical shearing and an injury from oxygen loss are different harms that may still meet downstream in the same inflammation and plasticity pathways.

The authors measured none of this in these three patients. No growth factors tested, probably because this is hard to test in humans. No imaging of repair, which is quite expensive.

They call extending the rodent and addiction research to chronic brain injury “highly preliminary.” It is a story offered as a reason to run better studies, not a result.

The sourcing question

The paper does something most iboga research skips. It names its source: a family in the Congo, harvested through traditional practice.

That matters, because the wider iboga trade has a dark side. By most accounts, the large majority of iboga and ibogaine used outside Africa comes from plants poached in Gabon and moved out through Cameroon. INTERPOL reports that the same organized networks running ivory now traffic iboga, clearing protected forest as they go. Gabon treats iboga as a strategic resource and has moved to limit exports. High prices and online demand keep the illegal trade going.

If microdosing protocols like this one catch on, demand grows with them. Interest in iboga’s promise has to carry the sourcing question alongside it. Not as a footnote. As part of the same conversation.

A more bullish reading

Not everyone reads the paper as cautiously as its authors wrote it. Court Wing, of REMAP Therapeutics and the Psychedelics and Pain Association (I’m a board member) calls it a demarcation line. A possible turning point not just for traumatic brain injury and post-concussion syndrome, but maybe for stroke and other brain conditions down the line.

His argument is worth hearing in full. Look at the actual exams, he says. The patients’ standard neurological workups came back normal. Their function tests and psychological evaluations look, to him, like remission. In his reading, the reason the authors stop short of saying “recovered” or “in remission” is not that the people aren’t. It is that academics writing a case series structurally cannot make that claim. “No clinician looking at their psychological evaluations and function tests would claim that they are not in remission,” he says. All three described what felt to them like full recovery, and the people closest to them agreed.

On patient three, Court reads the “relapse” differently than the paper does. He puts her slide back at the point her microdosing stopped, after her sixth session, and notes she asked to do another round. To him, that says she needed a longer course and a deeper integration period, not that the approach failed.

And he points at what he sees as the real opportunity: pairing iboga microdosing with other forms of neurorehabilitation, not just psychotherapy. Prime the nervous system for a few weeks before or during the dosing, he argues, and the effects could compound. This is the way psilocybin paired with mirror-box therapy has amplified results for phantom-limb pain, a condition with a heavy cortical and structural-plasticity component.

Here is where I would mark the line. Court may be right, and his neurorehab-pairing idea is one of the more interesting hypotheses to come out of this paper. But his reading of patient three—iboga worked, then wore off—is one explanation. The paper offers another in the same breath: she may have been recovering and fluctuating on her own, the way mild TBI often does. Both fit the facts we have. The optimistic story and the natural-recovery story are still standing in the same room, and we need more data to tell them apart.

What to do with this

Not call it proof that iboga heals brain injury. The evidence here cannot carry that, and the authors would say so first. What it can support is smaller and more useful. This is a strong enough signal to justify some research in humans.

We need more carefully documented cases, small pilot studies with real controls, standardized measures, plasticity biomarkers, and follow-up long enough to separate drug effects from natural recovery and expectation.

Three substantial cases, in a screened, multimodal, honestly reported series, is a reason to lean in.

Lets get to work and make this research happen.

May 22, 2026May 24, 2026

At the Federal Psychedelic Medicine Summit, the Mood Was Urgent, Practical, and Increasingly Coordinated

US Capital Building at Sunset - Federal Summit on Psychedelics - Psychedelic Medicine Coalition - GPT created image.

The Federal Summit on Psychedelic Medicine at the National Press Club felt like a field trying to organize itself around a reality already arriving. I attended the summit and spent the day in those conversations.

Hosted by the Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, the summit brought together policymakers, federal agency representatives, researchers, clinicians, veterans advocates, nonprofit leaders, and industry figures to work through how psychedelic medicine moves from research promise into responsible healthcare delivery.

The atmosphere was focused and practical. People kept returning to the same concern: how does this scale without the field fragmenting politically, clinically, or institutionally? Federal-state harmonization, training standards, REMS implementation, informed consent, rescheduling, and the fragility of executive branch support all fed into that question.

It felt less like a victory lap and more like an operational meeting a field trying to get serious about implementation before the political window closes.

From Symbolic Progress to Infrastructure

Shortly before the summit, President Donald Trump signed an executive order (April 18) directing federal agencies to accelerate research and treatment pathways for psychedelic compounds in serious mental illness, referencing FDA Breakthrough Therapy designations and reduced barriers to research and treatment development.

Speakers were direct about what that order cannot do alone. Administrations change, priorities shift, and bureaucracies can slow implementation regardless of political rhetoric. Representatives Lou Correa and Jack Bergman, co-chairs of the Congressional Psychedelics Advancing Therapies Caucus, argued that sustained constituent engagement and political pressure remain prerequisites for moving psychedelic medicine beyond isolated pilot programs into durable healthcare systems.

Texas drew repeated attention for its investment in ibogaine research. Other states are moving at very different speeds. This is a source of frustration and a driver of the day’s persistent focus on harmonization.

Veterans and the Ethics of Delay

Speakers returned repeatedly to suicide, trauma, addiction, and treatment-resistant mental health conditions in veteran populations. Many veterans seek treatment outside the United States because domestic pathways remain limited and illicit.

In a statement following a meeting with VA Secretary Doug Collins, Rep. Correa said: “Today’s rate of up to 20 veteran suicides a day is unacceptable one veteran suicide is unacceptable. Veterans deserve treatment that works, and the science shows that psychedelics have game-changing results.”

Rep. Bergman said in the same statement: “Our veterans didn’t hesitate to fight for us and now it’s up to us to fight for them.”

The question underneath those conversations still has no clean answer: how should policymakers balance scientific caution against the urgency of people suffering now? Participants supported rigorous science and FDA-regulated pathways. They were also frank that researchers and clinicians do not yet fully understand which compounds will work best for which conditions.

ARPA-H and the EVIDENT Initiative

ARPA-H generated some of the strongest interest of the day.

Established in 2022 and modeled after DARPA, the Advanced Research Projects Agency for Health funds high-risk, high-reward biomedical research that traditional NIH pathways and private capital are not well-positioned to pursue. In April 2026, ARPA-H announced the first research teams for EVIDENT (Evidence-Based Validation and Innovation for Rapid Therapeutics in Behavioral Health) a $139.4 million initiative to develop objective, FDA-ready clinical endpoints for emerging behavioral health therapies. As part of Trump’s executive order on mental illness, EVIDENT will allocate at least $50 million to match state government investments in psychedelic research.

The framing treated mental health as a systems engineering challenge rather than a pharmaceutical pipeline. EVIDENT’s core problem statement: “there are currently no predictive, scalable, or objective standardized measures of behavioral health, which makes it impossible to know what is working, when, and for whom”. This is a particular liability for psychedelic therapies, which resist simple pharmacological models. Context, preparation, psychotherapy, patient selection, integration, therapeutic alliance, and environment all shape results.

Ketamine Clinics as Early Infrastructure

Ketamine-assisted psychotherapy clinics may already be functioning as early infrastructure for the broader field.

Ketamine differs substantially from MDMA, psilocybin, ibogaine, and 5-MeO-DMT. Legal frameworks, risk profiles, and clinical models are not interchangeable. But ketamine clinics are already forcing providers through operational questions psychedelic medicine will eventually face at scale: managing altered states, interfacing psychotherapy with controlled substances, screening patients, and building clinical systems around non-ordinary states of consciousness.

As Rep. Bergman told The Hill: “We have to have the centers set up and we have to have the therapists trained and ready to administer the protocols in this new way.” Waiting until after approval to build those competencies will be more expensive and slower.

Rescheduling Is Becoming a Practical Development Question

Schedule I status creates barriers around research, institutional participation, physician involvement, storage, funding, and drug development. At the summit, rescheduling was treated as a practical clinical and development question, not a countercultural one.

Schedule I classification makes institutions cautious and drives up research costs. Physicians and health systems remain reluctant to engage with clinical trials because of the regulatory burden. Several participants discussed the possibility that future medicinal chemistry could generate patentable compounds that skirt the schedule status problem. Suggesting that this could be an easier solution for pharma than changing the drug schedule status of these compounds. The private sector’s appetite was more measured than some advocates expected.

Daniel Goldberg of Palo Santo, a venture fund with investments in the psychedelic medicine space, told Psychedelics Today: “Virtue signaling was at an all-time low, and problem solving was the theme of the day. After seven years in this space, that gathering in D.C. was the most substantive cross-stakeholder conversation I’ve seen, with federal agency representatives, legislators, scientists, pharma executives, veterans and others engaging candidly on what it will actually take to move the field forward. I came away more optimistic than I’ve been in a long time.”

Training, Standards, and the Limits of Checklists

FDA approval for psychedelic compounds will likely come with a Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy (REMS) the mandatory safety program that governs prescribing, administration, monitoring, and training requirements. For therapies involving hours-long supervised sessions, those requirements will be more demanding than for conventional pharmaceuticals. How training systems prepare providers to meet them at scale was an open question throughout the day.

Psychedelic work also involves capacities that resist traditional medical training. Presence, empathy, the ability to remain grounded during destabilizing experiences these develop through experiential training, not coursework. Another speaker mentioned “some of these skills can’t be trained, but can be measured”.

Pharmacology, documentation, and safety procedures can be standardized. How to prepare a person to sit with someone in an eight-hour psychedelic state is harder to put in a checklist.

Informed Consent Remains a Major Ethical Problem

Psychedelic experiences are unusually difficult to describe in advance. Even well-prepared patients may not fully understand what they are consenting to. Experienced clinicians acknowledge that current consent frameworks are imperfect for experiences this difficult to anticipate. This is a limitation the field recognizes and will need to work through as implementation proceeds, refining approaches as real clinical experience accumulates.

Audience questions pushed into screening and risk prediction. Some of which were, who is a good candidate, whether negative experiences can be anticipated, how clinicians should think about risk tolerance in treatment models that are still being developed.

Storytelling Still Matters

Personal narratives remain one of the primary ways legislators, regulators, clinicians, and the public understand psychedelic medicine. Speakers acknowledged that patient stories around veterans, trauma, addiction, and treatment resistance move political systems in ways that data can’t.

Melissa Lavasani and the Role of Coordination

Attendees independently praised Melissa Lavasani, for the quality of the event and the range of participants it assembled. She is the founder and executive director of the Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, who works closely with Congress to advance sensible psychedelic policy.

For years, researchers, state reform advocates, biotech firms, therapists, nonprofits, harm reduction groups, veterans organizations, and policymakers operated in parallel and sometimes at odds.

This summit suggested harmonization and a tremendous amount of progress in the near term.

Disclosure: Joe Moore, author of this article, serves on the board of the Psychedelic Medicine Coalition.

March 19, 2026March 24, 2026

Gov. Spencer Cox Signs Utah’s H.B. 390 Into Law, Authorizing Psychedelic Research for Veterans With PTSD

Utah’s new law does not legalize psychedelic therapy. It authorizes a tightly regulated clinical study at the Huntsman Mental Health Institute for veterans with treatment-resistant PTSD.

On March 19, Gov. Spencer Cox signed H.B. 390, the Veterans PTSD Clinical Research Amendments, into law. The measure authorizes the Huntsman Mental Health Institute at the University of Utah to conduct a clinical study on psychedelic-assisted therapy for veterans with treatment-resistant PTSD. Cox’s office included H.B. 390 in a batch of 74 bills signed that day.

That makes Utah notable for a specific reason. This is not a decriminalization bill. It does not create a statewide access model. Utah chose a narrower path: state-authorized clinical research inside a mainstream medical institution, with veterans at the center.

Utah’s approach lands somewhere between Oregon and Colorado’s broader state-level experiments and the federal setback that followed the FDA’s rejection of Lykos’ MDMA application: narrower than a public access model, but more ambitious than waiting for Washington to move first.

H.B. 390 is written as a clinical research law, not a general access law. The bill defines an eligible veteran as a veteran with treatment-resistant PTSD. It authorizes research into the safety and feasibility of psychedelic-assisted therapy for that population, and it specifically names MDMA, psilocybin, and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, better known as 5-MeO-DMT, as qualifying investigational psychedelic drugs. The law also defines psychedelic-assisted therapy in clinical terms: administration of the drug in a controlled setting, paired with manualized, trauma-informed preparatory and integrative psychotherapy delivered by a qualified therapist.

“This is about the state taking responsibility for a specific, well-defined study that can inform Utah’s policy decisions and benefit the local Veteran community. With the passage of H.B. 390, Utah has created a framework for that work to move forward with public accountability. This does not preclude ongoing [psychedelic] research at The University of Utah; rather, it creates a parallel lane for state-directed evaluation designed to generate clinical evidence that lawmakers can rely on.” – Benjamin R. Lewis, M.D. – Associate Professor of Psychiatry, Huntsman Mental Health Institute – Principal Investigator, The University of Utah Psychedelic Science Initiative (U-PSI)

Photo: Gov. Spencer Cox Signs Utah’s H.B. 390 Into Law

That language shows how carefully Utah lawmakers framed the effort. The bill does not endorse broad consumer access. It authorizes a study. And not just any study. Before the clinical study can begin, Huntsman must operate under an FDA investigational new drug application, maintain DEA Schedule I research registration and any required state controlled-substance registration, and obtain Institutional Review Board approval.

The law also requires a detailed protocol. That includes study design, inclusion and exclusion criteria, follow-up schedules, informed consent procedures, participant safeguards, data security and privacy protections, drug source and dosing details, staffing and monitoring procedures, discharge and transportation rules, chain-of-custody and disposal procedures for controlled substances, emergency response planning, adverse event reporting, therapist licensure and qualification requirements, training and supervision plans, and a participant complaint and grievance process. This is not loose policy language. It is an attempt to build a highly structured medical research container around a politically sensitive area of treatment.

There is also a practical reason this bill moved. It is focused on veterans, and that gives lawmakers a narrower and more politically defensible case for action. The bill itself does not claim that the science is settled. It creates a path to gather more evidence under state-backed institutional oversight for a population with high rates of severe PTSD and a clear need for better options.

“Veterans are often excluded from clinical trials evaluating psychedelics and mental health treatments, as strict eligibility criteria fail to capture the complex realities of military-related PTSD, including moral injury, substance use, traumatic brain injury, past suicide attempts, and elevated dropout risk. H.B. 390 creates a critical opportunity not only for Veterans to participate in research, but also for Utah to train clinicians, establish protocols, and build the infrastructure needed to implement psychedelic-assisted therapy when FDA approvals arrive.” Anya Ragnhildstveit – CEO, Center for Psychedelic Research, Pneuma Science – Lead Scientific Policy Advisor

The funding picture is more limited than the headline might suggest. The enrolled bill itself states that there is no direct appropriation in H.B. 390. Instead, it says Huntsman must begin the study if legislative appropriations plus gifts, grants, or donations reach an amount the institute determines is sufficient to launch. Separate Utah legislative budget materials show a one-time approved amount of $1 million tied to “Veterans PTSD Clinical Research Amendments (H.B. 390)” at the University of Utah. Huntsman may also continue accepting gifts, grants, and donations to fund the study.

The governor’s signature is a real milestone, but not the end of the story. The next phase is operational. Huntsman still has to finalize the protocol, satisfy federal and state regulatory requirements, secure or manage sufficient funding, and build the staffing and clinical infrastructure needed to run the study. The law says the institute must begin by January 1, 2027 if the available funding is sufficient. If it is not, Huntsman can keep raising money and launch later once the threshold is met.

The law also includes reporting requirements. Huntsman must report progress to the Health and Human Services Interim Committee upon request and submit a final written report after the study concludes. That report must include safety and feasibility outcomes, along with any secondary or exploratory clinical outcomes. The clinical study provisions sunset on July 1, 2032.

For the psychedelic field, Utah’s move is worth watching because it points to a different route than ballot campaigns or broad legalization debates. H.B. 390 is narrow, institution-based, and built to survive political scrutiny. For states unwilling to move toward broader access, that model may prove easier to replicate.

Gov. Cox’s signature does not legalize psychedelic therapy in Utah. It creates a formal clinical research pathway for veterans with treatment-resistant PTSD inside a major medical institution, under federal research rules and state reporting requirements. It is a limited step, but a meaningful one.

March 9, 2026March 9, 2026

Joe Moore Psychedelics Today on Leadership, Integration, and the Psychedelic Landscape

PT 650 - Joe Moore - CEO and Co-founder of Psychedelics Today

Jen Davenport joins Psychedelics Today to interview the CEO and co-founder Joe Moore about the growth of Psychedelics Today, the broader psychedelic ecosystem, and how professionals are beginning to engage with psychedelic ideas.

Davenport is the founder of Iron Thread Partners and a graduate of the Vital psychedelic training program. Her work focuses on executive leadership, decision making, and organizational development. In this conversation she asks Moore about the evolution of Psychedelics Today and the changes he has witnessed across the psychedelic field over the past decade.

Moore explains that Psychedelics Today began as a podcast exploring psychedelic research, therapy, and culture. Over time the project expanded into a media and education platform covering psychedelic science, harm reduction, and professional training. The organization now produces podcasts, journalism, courses, and public conversations about psychedelics and their place in modern society.

A central part of the discussion is psychedelic integration. Moore notes that insight during a psychedelic experience does not automatically lead to lasting change. The integration process often requires continued work through journaling, meditation, therapy, and community support. These practices help people translate insights into stable changes in behavior and perspective.

The conversation also explores policy changes in the United States. Colorado’s Natural Medicine framework is creating a regulated system for psychedelic services while the state also maintains a broader decriminalization approach. Moore discusses the tension between regulated access and grassroots psychedelic culture, as well as the questions around accessibility, pricing, and corporate participation.

Davenport asks how executives and professionals are approaching psychedelics. In some circles psychedelics are framed as tools for creativity or performance. Moore cautions against this framing. Psychedelics often open difficult personal material and should be approached with care rather than treated as productivity tools.

Education remains a recurring theme throughout the episode. As public interest grows, Moore stresses the importance of studying the legal landscape, understanding the scientific literature, and developing responsible practices for preparation and integration.

The conversation offers a grounded look at how Psychedelics Today approaches the psychedelic resurgence. Rather than focusing on hype, Joe Moore emphasizes education, safety, and thoughtful engagement with psychedelic experiences.

Key Topics

The origins and growth of Psychedelics Today
Joe Moore’s perspective on the psychedelic resurgence
Psychedelic integration and long-term personal change
Leadership and professional interest in psychedelics
Colorado’s developing psychedelic policy framework
Responsible education and harm reduction

FAQ

Who is Jen Davenport?

Jen Davenport is the founder of Iron Thread Partners, a consulting firm that works with executives and organizations on leadership development and complex decision making.

What is psychedelic integration?

Psychedelic integration refers to the process of reflecting on and applying insights from psychedelic experiences in everyday life through practices like therapy, journaling, and meditation.

What role does Psychedelics Today play in the psychedelic field?

Psychedelics Today produces media, educational programs, and public conversations that explore psychedelic science, therapy, and policy developments.

Transcript
Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Another episode of Psychedelics Today. Today we’re live streaming. Um, good. Jen Davenport today. Jen, how you doing?
Jen Davenport: Doing well, Joe. How are you
Joe Moore: doing? All right. Beautiful day here. Sunny in Colorado. Excited about it.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, me too. It’s sunny and warm here in Atlanta, Georgia as well.
Jen Davenport: Spring has sprung.
Joe Moore: Oh, we’re getting some echo. Can you turn your volume down a bunch or put it into ear?
Jen Davenport: Yep, yep. Gimme one sec. And I’ll
Joe Moore: put on
Jen Davenport: some headphones. How about that?
Joe Moore: Great. So everybody, we’re here today. We’re kind of flipping the script a little bit. Jen’s gonna interview me, um, about psychedelics today, about what I’ve been up to or coming from where we’re going, all that kind of fun stuff.
Joe Moore: So [00:01:00] really excited about it. And, um, we’ll get to talk a little bit about Jen’s background, um, business life and intersection with psychedelia. And, um, yeah. So Jen, where, where are you joining us from today?
Jen Davenport: Hey, I’m adjoining you from Atlanta, Georgia.
Joe Moore: Brilliant. And it’s already 80 degrees you said?
Jen Davenport: It is. It is warming up here in Georgia already.
Jen Davenport: I’m, I’m excited about spring.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So, all right. Um. And I think people know enough about me, we can skip this part, but let’s talk about you a little bit. Where, where, um, did the psychedelic topic first come on your radar and what’s, what’s like exciting you about it?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, so I’ve spent in the majority of my career in corporate Joe and have recently founded a new company, iron Thread [00:02:00] Partners, where I focus with executives and leadership teams on solving for really high stakes.
Jen Davenport: Outcomes, strategic outcomes. Um, and I, I’ve always realized in corporate culture, you are who you are wherever you go. So you’re bringing not just your corporate identity, but all of your wounding, all of your trauma, all of the things that create emotional dysregulation or impact, um, depression, anxiety, all of those things.
Jen Davenport: And so I’ve started to think about it and explore how can psychedelics help people in the realm of human performance, how to show up better and differently in corporate environments.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, amazing. So. I assume you’ve done a little bit of training over here. Can you, can you talk about what kind of programs you’ve done over here
Jen Davenport: at P?
Jen Davenport: [00:03:00] Absolutely. Yep. So I was in cohort four of the vital training that’s presented by psychedelics today. Um, I’ve worked with psychedelic informed therapists, um, and I have a, a degree, a graduate degree in psychology, industrial and organizational psychology. So that’s where I see this, this intersection of something that might typically be thought of in the spiritual realm, um, or the, the, uh, the experiential realm that could really show up and, and have some positive, uh, impacts in the corporate culture as well.
Joe Moore: Outstanding. Yeah. Um, vitals. Really fun. I’m glad you were able to join us for that whole thing. Was it, was it worth your time?
Jen Davenport: Oh my goodness. Absolutely. It was amazing. It was amazing. I learned so much, um, so much about the history of psychedelics. Um, even the, the political angle [00:04:00] about why psychedelics that kind of went, had to go underground back in the sixties.
Jen Davenport: Um, and just what the amazing impacts of psychedelics can be around those topics of emotional regulation, healing from trauma, PTSD, depression, um, you know, we’re, we’re looking at a multi-billion dollar industry where some of these indigenous medicines could come back into the scene and really have a huge impact in people’s lives.
Joe Moore: Yeah, amazing. I agree. So, um, we’re chatting, before we dig into you interviewing me, we kinda wanna chat about like, what, what. Is there, is there an appropriate place in the business and corporate world for psychedelics in your perspective? We’ve seen, you know, a lot of inclusion of mindfulness and, um, meditation, things along those lines.
Joe Moore: Like I used to be at a place where we get to do yoga often and free reiki, stuff like [00:05:00] that. So like, what, what do you think, is it an appropriate thing to have?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I, Joe I really do believe that it’s time to start having the conversation more openly. Um, you know, particularly in forward leaning industries.
Jen Davenport: Um. Technology for sure. I mean, it’s already talked about quite a bit in technology, but outside the boardroom, right? Um, marketing more of the creative, uh, creative fields. Yes, absolutely. I think, um. You know, the research is leaning to all of the benefits around how, um, psychedelics can help in ways that increase cognition, um, increase emotional regulation.
Jen Davenport: All of those things are gonna feed into better decision making within organizations. So yes, I think that there’s certainly a place for the discussion, but it’s, uh, you know, if I think about it and compare [00:06:00] it to something like ai, everybody’s talking about AI right now. I think there are a lot of people talking about psychedelics, but it’s still a bit of a taboo subject.
Jen Davenport: But they’re both extremely powerful technologies. Both of them require thoughtful discussion, governance, um, discussion around what problem are you really trying to solve with this technology? So the answer is yes, with a, a high degree of thoughtfulness.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, it’s fascinating, right? Like of, of course we need a, um, a more enlightened humanity so we can start making a lot better decisions for people on planet.
Joe Moore: Um, and a lot of the frameworks we have to operate in absolutely. Like, for instance, publicly traded corporations, like at, you know, ethics is a secondary tertiary consideration, right? Like profit is you, you’re legally bound, at least in American corporations, publicly traded corporations [00:07:00] for profit being the primary thing.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, it’s a complicated deal and I, I, I would hope psychedelics would shift that thinking a bit.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I, I think that, um, we live in a time where returning a little more humanity across the board to corporate culture could only be a good thing.
Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Um, and you, you are of the belief that you think we can shift it a bit?
Jen Davenport: I believe we can. You know, when I, I have a lot of discussions with leaders in my business. You know, we’re, we’re talking about really big, impactful decisions that they make that could impact sometimes thousands of people, right? And so from what I know about psychedelics, they’re, they’re framed as tools that can increase empathy and perspective and judgment.
Jen Davenport: So I do, there’s, I do think that there’s [00:08:00] a place for, for how psychedelics, the use of psychedelics can, um, can impact decision making capability, can impact human performance in a way that doesn’t cause us to shortcut humanity.
Joe Moore: Right. Um. Absolutely. So, you know, that’s what I’m trying to do. It’s what I’ve always tried to do here at psychedelics today is be, what is that next gen business that seems to make sense for the planet, um, and is a net benefit.
Joe Moore: And, you know, helps us hang around for a few more generations.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I do think there’s a risk, right, of, of people approaching psychedelics with the wrong intention, right? So, um, a lot of times people could think, Hey, it’s a shortcut to genius, or it’s a creativity hack or a leadership upgrade.
Jen Davenport: And I think that it really, if we start [00:09:00] looking at it like we look at any other corporate tool in the marketplace, we can lose sight of what the real benefit is. And that’s really taken it back to the individual. Evolution of, of a person, right? So, you know, all of the, all of the ills that we see in corporations and um, in society at large come down to a single person who’s overstepped in terms of a lust for power, for greed, for, for all the things, right?
Jen Davenport: So finding ways to bring, to bring us all back to ourselves and to reconnect to ourselves can only make everything else that we do and touch better,
Joe Moore: right? So, um, yeah. Anything else here before we pivot?
Jen Davenport: I think we should go for it. Alright,
Joe Moore: let’s jump in. Where do you wanna start?
Jen Davenport: Well, you’ve [00:10:00] had a front row seat, Joe, to everything that’s happening in the psychedelic scene for, for many years.
Jen Davenport: And so I, I’m really interested in hearing about what do you think has changed the most in the last five to 10 years? Is it research? Is it culture? Um, is the topic of psychedelics becoming more ca mainstream? Is it around capital? Like where do you see things changing the most?
Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Well, it’s happening everywhere.
Joe Moore: Um, I think the starting point is public opinion and attitudes and how are we moving those? And a lot of other things follow, right? So we have. Um, more and more celebrities talking about this stuff all the time. Even politicians talking about this stuff all the time. Not necessarily always, uh, the, the right way, quote unquote, you know, as if that is a real thing.
Joe Moore: Um, but it [00:11:00] depends on what our, what our goals are and how we want to talk about this stuff. Um, so I think public attitudes are shifting and they’re shifting in a, in a major way. And the RAND report that came out recently, um, indicated that American attitudes are shifting like crazy. People are using more now than ever.
Joe Moore: Um, and that, I think it was a substantial amount of the American public said that the federal government should legalize psilocybin containing mushrooms.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, I got to give Forbes a bunch of really great commentary about it the other day, which is lovely to see. They included me quite a bit. I was really stoked on that.
Joe Moore: And I think, you know, we’re seeing actual work being done at the federal level. And the state level for that matter, trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. Um, government workers have all sorts of restrictions on them, so they’re doing their best. They’re trying
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: To figure it out. But it’s a really hard thing given a trillion dollar war on drugs and [00:12:00]
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: You know, and how do we make it medical now? I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have a clear answer for what the path is from A to B.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, it’s really interesting. I, I, I think that we, we do kind of have, um, competing agendas within the government right now where, you know, there’s this war on drugs, but there’s all this really promising research about what these drugs that are currently class one drugs can do for people.
Jen Davenport: And it, it’s also in contrast, I think, with big pharma and all of that lobby. So do you think that the, the, what feels like kind of this, this underground surge of excitement, do you think it’s sustainable or, or are we in a hype cycle right now?
Joe Moore: We’re at a low, no, we’re not anywhere close to like the peak of a hype cycle right now.
Joe Moore: So, um, maybe four years ago was real, real fever pitch. Could have even been longer ago. [00:13:00] Um, you look at the, there’s some, uh, stock trackers, um, that actually made like a sort of index of all the public companies. And, um, you could see like there was a period of time where everything just had a crazy, crazy valuation.
Joe Moore: And, um, that to me was peak hype. Like I think the level right now seems very sustainable. Um, it seems, you know, grassroots enough people aren’t spending an obscene amount of money trying to, um, promote it. Um, you know, I’m. Spending time and quite a bit of effort doing that, but, you know, that’s me. Um, but yeah.
Joe Moore: How do we, um, how do we see it playing out? Is it sustainable? I, I can’t see it going anywhere. Like there’s so much like really [00:14:00] great traction we’re seeing from individuals having a lot of healing to
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Communities, ex expressing that they’ve had a lot of healing. Um, states like Colorado seems to really like this program that we have going on.
Joe Moore: When regulated Access, Oregon seems relatively satisfied with their program. Uh, new Mexico’s got theirs coming. Um, Texas recently put in 10 million to their iboga research program.
Jen Davenport: Nice.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Of 50, 50 million. Yeah. And then, um, other states are putting in cash as well, so there’s a lot of really interesting activity Yes.
Joe Moore: Um, happening. And it, to me, it feels like we’re just getting started.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, that’s really exciting, Joe. And, and honestly, I think the more that we see governments putting, putting attention to the topic and putting money where their, where their mouth is, we’re gonna see a shift more into the corporate [00:15:00] conversation, more into how these, these topics of wellness do translate into increased human potential, increased human performance.
Jen Davenport: So I think if we can keep the momentum going, this is gonna be a topic that really gains momentum, you know? Where are you most surprised about, um, what’s happened in the last five years with psychedelics?
Joe Moore: Um,
Joe Moore: yeah, that’s a good question. I think it is just how. Active the United States government is in this, you know, I didn’t expect them. Like it’s still very subpar activity, but it’s still, you know, movement and signals that there is change and people taking this very seriously at the, you know, highest levels of the government.
Joe Moore: And [00:16:00] we’re, we’re seeing it, you know, psychedelic medicine coalitions worked with, uh, Bergman and Carrera to move this really interesting VA innovative therapies project forward where they might have five different centers of excellence at the VA where they can do these treatments and execute on really high level research.
Joe Moore: Um, veterans are demanding this access and it seems like we’re getting met with some interest. Yeah. So like I really, really like that and I’m excited by that. I think, you know, could always do better, could always see more sooner, but you know, we have to accept that there is a certain pace and there’s a certain level of energy that’s required.
Joe Moore: Um. To bring these things forward.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it, it’s, pace is always an interesting question, especially coming from a corporate background. Right. I, I’ve done some work in the public sector and the thing that I’ve noticed most working in the public sector is the pace is. [00:17:00] Painstakingly slower than what I’m accustomed to, especially coming from a, a startup culture.
Jen Davenport: Um, and, you know, high demand, high impact corporate culture. And, and so it feels like we’re really in this interesting moment where there’s a lot of research happening culturally, curiosity is, is, is peaked. People are demanding this, but the legal framework is still catching up. So, so, so what do you think about responsible engagement given where we are with that?
Jen Davenport: I mean, you’ve talked about some of the decriminalization activity that’s going on, but, um, you know, where do you, where do you see that shaping up?
Joe Moore: So.
Joe Moore: Responsible engagement is such a funny phrase. Right. And I, I have a similar background, right? I had 20 years in mm-hmm. Software and it was crazy.
Jen Davenport: Right? Yeah. I
Joe Moore: remember talking about that.
Jen Davenport: [00:18:00] Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um,
Jen Davenport: let’s, let’s move at the speed of light or, or you’re behind, right?
Joe Moore: Right. And, you know, talk about a, a dangerous situation to keep your mind and body in for decades, Uhhuh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So is that responsible engagement? Probably not, but what is the right engagement level? So,
Jen Davenport: right. You know,
Joe Moore: I think making sure your politicians know what you believe in and what you stand for. And then if you have a. Municipal county or state framework, perhaps there’s legislation that you can work on in those regions that decreases penalties for people or eliminates penalties for people who are, who are in these spaces.
Joe Moore: And you know, as you probably know Jen, like I expand that to the whole war on drugs because I think that’s been one of the biggest catastrophes America has seen. Um, you know, unless we really value keeping lots of people in jail for nonviolent things.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: [00:19:00] So yeah, we need to really kind of, um, say what is, what is the right pace?
Joe Moore: It’s not, you’ve had, you know, a week of ayahuasca experiences and then you rush to your state capitol and start talking to all your lawmakers like the next day. Like, I don’t know that that’s the right move. I think yeah, taking stock and observing your situation is, is a much better move. Um, taking time.
Joe Moore: To make sure you’re executing on the right things in the right way because you’re not spending your social capital in inappropriate, perhaps wasteful ways.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I think that’s a really, really great point, Joe. You know, uh, I, we, we talk about, you know, people coming back from these really powerful, psychedelic experiences, um, and, you know, obviously everyone wants to come back and, and make lasting change, not only for [00:20:00] themselves, but to invite other people into the conversation.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm. But you’re right, it takes a little bit of time to, to regulate from, uh, an experience like that. I mean, powerful experiences are amazing, but mm-hmm. It’s all about what are you trying to solve for in the internal landscape there? And insight alone doesn’t necessarily lead to lasting change in a person’s life.
Jen Davenport: So certainly premature to line up, you know, in front of our legislators, um, office and start having conversations. I’m curious, like what do you think really helps people to translate these experiences and these insights first into behavioral shifts in their own lives, and then, you know, kind of what’s the process there to, to, um, build momentum within their, their personal life, their professional life, and then to start to, to, to partake in [00:21:00] some of these grassroots initiatives?
Joe Moore: Right? I think a huge portion of this is how do we move things without creating too much instability in our lives? Our relationships and, um, often we’re like, okay, the insight is quit my job, get, get that divorce immediately. It’s like, well, should you, would you, or like, have you tried couples therapy yet?
Joe Moore: Is that appropriate thing to start with? So there’s a lot of, um, energy after. So I think to get those insights, we, we really want to kind of take our time and, you know, sure. If it’s something like maybe I should drink less or maybe I should eat less McDonald’s or, sure. Like, let’s do that right away. But if it’s a major thing that could introduce tons of instability, perhaps [00:22:00] let’s not do that immediately.
Joe Moore: Let’s really analyze the situation, right? Get feedback from people that can be useful if you have that resource and then figure out where to go next. Um, carefully.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I, I agree. I, um, I remember, you know, just being part of the, of the, of cohort four, there was a lot of discussion about why you guys decided to launch the training, and a lot of it is about harm reduction because, um, so many people are starting to enter the discussion around the use of psychedelics and, um, harm reduction doesn’t just stop during the experience itself.
Jen Davenport: It continues on with, with how, what do people do after they come out of those experiences? How do they continue to get support? And I’m, I’m curious, you know, what do you think about where people struggle the most [00:23:00] after some of these really big experiences with psychedelics?
Joe Moore: The. Beyond kind of making these big decisions, like I, you know, divorce or quitting your job.
Joe Moore: Like, I think sometimes the worldview that you come back with can be really scary and, and dysregulating. ’cause you had this experience that’s far from normal. Um, and you’re, you’re kind of expected to carry on with life as normal when, you know, you now have a very different view of reality. And, you know, that can be from entity encounters, it can be from experiencing who you are in very different ways.
Joe Moore: It can be from so many things like, oh, I actually disagree with this dogma from church. And what do I do now that I’m not, you know, I have a couple questions. You know, a lot, there’s a lot of [00:24:00] possible things, this concept called ontological shock. Yes. And it’s like now we’re questioning the fundamental baseline of reality and we have to really spend substantial time settling into these new experiences being part of our world.
Joe Moore: And I think that’s a major component of integration, is spending enough time with these new insights and experiences so that, um,
Joe Moore: yeah, we can, we can integrate those and make them part of our life and, and learn from them and not be ignoring them.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, uh, uh, a lot of the things that I would typically teach people when I am coming into a corporate consulting engagement or, or, uh, um, a coaching engagement where people are really looking to slow their nervous system down to really look at some embedded patterns and behaviors [00:25:00] that may need a shift.
Jen Davenport: Um, I’ll talk a lot about mindfulness and meditation, creating a journaling practice. And so these sorts of things are, are really mainstream in the human performance, um, and the human performance discussions that happen today. Um, we don’t talk a lot about, um. Big, powerful spiritual experiences, although it is coming up more and more frequently, especially in some of the one-on-one discussions that I have in coaching engagements.
Jen Davenport: And so, you know, what, what does good integration actually look like in daily practice from, from your perspective?
Joe Moore: It should be different for everybody. Um, but, you know, some, some categoricals is, are you drinking enough water? Are you eating properly? Are you trying to work on sleeping enough and better?
Joe Moore: You know, those are some good ones. [00:26:00] Are you taking moments to check in with yourself about how you’re processing the experience? Um, I think that’s a big one. Um, I’m sure there’s other categoricals, you know, I would love to see people meditating more. Yeah. You know. 10 minutes of mindfulness or mantra meditation, you know, whatever it is.
Joe Moore: Uh, to start. I think that would be really great exercise. Are you moving your, your vehicle Are, you’re taking care of your body? You know, I, um, I’ve had this problem where instead of taking care of medical things, I just get to work. ’cause I don’t have enough time to take care of my medical thing, you know?
Joe Moore: And
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. How
Joe Moore: tragic is that?
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I mean, it’s really counterproductive, right? Like we, we live in this, this cult of productivity in the corporate world. When, when everything is about pushing for more and more [00:27:00] and more. But when we, um. When we focus less on things like our own personal wellbeing, when we sacrifice time to meditate even 10 minutes a day, we’re really harming our ability to, to be, um, high performers in the workplace or in life in general.
Jen Davenport: It’s just really counterproductive,
Joe Moore: right? So you spent all this money and this time to do this treatment or intervention or drug or whatever it was, and you do the things afterwards, which is why it’s hard. It takes work to build these new habits. And so like, it’s not like all of a sudden you’re, you know, doing all the things you know you should be doing.
Joe Moore: It’s like, well, I’m still like struggling. I’m still trying to get through all this stuff, and how do I contextualize it more appropriately, such that maybe going to the doctor is higher priority. Yeah. You
Jen Davenport: know, one, [00:28:00] 1%.
Joe Moore: Yeah.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just specifically around like leadership and optimizing human performance, it can be such a big business.
Jen Davenport: I, I, I think about the book Stealing Fire by Stephen Coler. You remember that one? Like, I think that came out maybe more than a decade ago. And at that point in time it was all about, you know, shifting into this flow state and how teams can start to, to, to shift in ways that they move less as an individual and more as a, as a cohesive unit to accomplish more.
Jen Davenport: And so I, I’m curious your thoughts around the use of psychedelics, um, to. To create more of a flow state. I know we can get into flow state just from mindfulness, from physical activity. There are so [00:29:00] many flow triggers. But when we think about, um, I, I, I think the conversation is moving maybe a way from sort of flow state more into brain health and energy management and cognitive clarity now.
Jen Davenport: So where do you think psychedelics fit in the spectrum on those conversations?
Joe Moore: Just like everything with psychedelics, it’s, um, there’s a lot of caveats as to where the right place for these things are. Um, and there’s a lot of discovery yet to be done around it as well. So I’m thinking a few things, right? Like we.
Joe Moore: To get through our workday skillfully. Like, is it actually the right move to just throw more drugs into the mix?
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: You know, I think that’s something we have to really carefully think about, especially [00:30:00] if it’s with some frequency.
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: If the idea is that the, the worker has the ability to make that decision for themselves if they wanna do it, you know, once every couple years, like maybe that’s less pressure.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t think, like, you know. Um, some sort of subsidized microdosing plan. I don’t know that that makes, I don’t, it, it creeps me out a little bit to think about that kind of thing.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, it, it kind of gets into that whole ethics discussion, right? If, if there’s this mm-hmm. This a right idea.
Jen Davenport: If, if there’s this big, bright idea that there’s some sort of shortcut to getting more out of people, um, it, it really does turn it into maybe the possibility of sort of weaponized use. Um,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Jen Davenport: Like, like all of these other conversations that we’re having about skip your doctor’s appointment so you can get more done in the office.
Jen Davenport: We [00:31:00] certainly don’t want to, to hype people up on, on medicines that are framed as shortcuts to, to more productivity or shortcuts to, um, you know, some sort of creativity hack of, of sorts. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a big question around what does ethical use look like for someone in a position of power.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, I I, I was, I was, um, just sort of flipping through, stealing fire a little bit and remembering back when they were looking to hire a new CEO at, um, at Google, the guy who got the job was the guy who went to Burning Man with the founders. Right? And so, if, if I remember that story correctly. And so, I mean, there’s certainly, there’s certainly an association with the use of psychedelics and expanded creativity, but [00:32:00] I’m sure that there could be, uh, uh, an ethical dilemma around how far the conversation goes within the corporate culture.
Joe Moore: Um. Yeah, I think you know, that, that story is interesting and funny. I don’t think we can pull too many lessons from it for the, for the broader conversation. Like Eric Schmidt ended up a billionaire. He’s fine. You know? Um, and, you know, if he didn’t want to do it, he had an easy no. Um, you know, I, I’m more concerned about like, okay, so you’re fresh outta college, um, and you get this job and people are press pressuring you to like microdose whatever.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. You know, maybe more than microdose to do better spreadsheets or whatever it is. Or like, do better compassion on the telephone when you’re doing customer support. Um, and you know, the [00:33:00] individual needs to have the utmost agency here. There can’t be pressure
Jen Davenport: absolutely.
Joe Moore: In a, in a hierarchy like coming from a hierarchical position for you to do this.
Joe Moore: And it like that. For me to feel okay about it and not to be shouting about how much I disagree with it. Right. So I have this whole like, kind of thing about ethics where like, I need us to like define that term a little bit better. Yeah. So generally we’re talking about guild rules, like what’s the agreement, those of us that do this, what’s our agreement so that we can stay kind of collegial and trust each other?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. You know, I, I think that at the, at the heart of every conversation that I have, um, preserving agency is at the, is at the top of the list. Like every person, regardless of where they sit in society, um, within a corporate hierarchy, wherever they are restoring and [00:34:00] maintaining personal agency is. Is, is the golden standard from my perspective.
Jen Davenport: So, however this conversation goes with regard to whether a person could or should use psychedelics, it’s always about what’s in that person’s best in highest good.
Joe Moore: So I wanna like rewind the tape on like, you know, what, what do we actually even mean? You know, like, so let’s go to Guil guilds again. So talk about like, you know, um, say a shoemaker guild, like they, they agree that it’s, it’s, you know, the right thing to do for them as a profession to use these four types of glues.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Don’t use those other glues ’cause it’s lower quality and you know, maybe too much rainforest has to get cut down for it or whatever it is. Like we have a collective [00:35:00] agreement. That this is the case.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, I think, you know, because of the war on drugs, we, that kind of broke around psychedelics and
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, drugs more generally. And, um, you know, we spent a lot of time, Kyle and I, Kyle Buller, co-founder of Psychedelic Say and I, on this ethics topic.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Um, we got contacted by, um, Christine House Keller and Peter Schwart at Hughes out of Exeter University to contribute an essay, um, on the ethics of the drug war.
Joe Moore: Um, and we took that quite literally, like, what do we mean by ethics? So we went all the way back to Aristotle, spent all this time reading Aristotle and, you know, writing this draft, trying to like include all of these things on the foundations of like logics of ethics. What do we actually even mean when we say that?
Joe Moore: And they said, what? You just write a history of the drug war? I said, okay. [00:36:00] Um, it’s, it’s quite self-evident how crazy it is. And in human terms, we often kind of conflate ethics and morality. Like we get a little bit confused by what we mean where, so I like, I like to kind of bring it back to like a moral conversation or like, what does a certain group agree is the right or wrong thing to do?
Joe Moore: Um, to try to like, um, I don’t know, feel a little bit more careful and specific. Often you’ll see therapists say that’s not ethical or doctors or, you know, lawyers and we, we want to be clear that what they’re talking about is different from when we talk about kind of morality and moral concerns. And, um, I think there’s a lot more that has to go into getting those fleshed out.
Joe Moore: But where I stand is that people shouldn’t necessarily be interfering on other people’s drug use. Um, [00:37:00] you know, collectively, I think there’s some imperative around education and support and safety. Um, but at the end of the day, it’s somebody else’s decision if they want to do it or not. And we shouldn’t be pushing anybody to do anything, even if it’s Ibuprofen or Adderall or or LSD.
Joe Moore: Like, we should be really careful about all of it.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Totally agree. Totally agree. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re making me think a little bit more about the role that policy is gonna play in all of these conversations. Um, and, and, and so, so what do you think the future is gonna look like? Do you, do you think it’s gonna lean more towards medical regulation, like psychiatry?
Jen Davenport: Um, do you think that there’s more potential for it to lean more towards, like, regulated wellness environments? Um, I, I think that there are a lot of people across the wellness industry and across the medical community who are really interested in this. When I was looking at [00:38:00] this, um, when I was in the vital cohort, we had medical professionals, therapists, um, um.
Jen Davenport: Just curious people like me who wanted to understand more about this and how it impacts, um, human development and, and human performance. And so, so where do you think it’s gonna go?
Joe Moore: I think we have a few different battles and it’s gonna be a series of battles and that, that kind of play out in different ways. So right now we have a lot of wins and traction from these state level regulated access programs. Um, we also have what I think is the best thing going in Colorado right now.
Joe Moore: We can always do better, but we have a regulated access program for psilocybin. They’re working really hard on ibogaine, bringing that to market in a regulated framework. And we also have decriminalized access. [00:39:00] And, you know, inside that decrim framework, um, a platform from which lots of operators can be doing business around these things with psilocybin, mescal, DMT, and Ibogaine.
Joe Moore: Um, a little more careful on the ibogaine, but it’s, it’s there. Mm-hmm. Um, from natural sources. So like, I love it. I think we look in the ma the micro here in Colorado, there’s gonna be a lot of tension between the Colorado regulated access program and the decriminalized frame, in part because a lot of people are still very attracted to the decriminalized frame on a of pricing.
Joe Moore: Um, there’s an article I picked up yesterday from MJ Biz, so kind of a cannabis business article talking about how overregulation is in cannabis is leading to higher taxes, and then as a result, bigger activity in the black markets and illicit markets. So, um. As a result of [00:40:00] that, you know, we’re drive, we’re trying to do all this regulation and do it the way we want, but there’s all these unseen consequences of that.
Joe Moore: And we we’re kind of pretending that those things don’t exist. Yes. So in the Colorado and Oregon frames, we made taxation a bit, high regulations, quite intense. Voters voted for one thing. Regulators are gonna do what they can to be as careful as possible, as conservative as possible. Mm-hmm. Because they don’t want to get fired or get blamed for somebody getting hurt.
Joe Moore: And they don’t know these topics very well. You know, they’ve not been around for 20 years.
Jen Davenport: Yeah.
Joe Moore: There’s some advisors supporting folks. So there’s gonna be this dynamic tension because of regulations being high cost, being high cost, and decrim being a lot lower. So I think there’s a looming battle in Colorado and it’ll, it’ll be.
Joe Moore: I don’t think the fight is the right fight. I don’t think we’re fighting the right people here because this [00:41:00] was kind of potentially set up from the beginning, um, by not being really tight with what the regulators need to do when they set this stuff up. Um, so I see a looming battle from regulated trying to squash the decrim side, which I don’t love.
Joe Moore: Yeah, so decrim side, get ready for this battle. Organize Now to defend yourselves against this, um, it will be challenging and I think, uh, we might have a similar thing from federal two states, though there might be a way that they, um, can coexist. So if we look at Compass having psilocybin coming out, few other companies with different drugs, um, coming to market through the FDA over the next three or four years, um, like maps will happen.
Joe Moore: You know, MDMA will happen. Um, we’re gonna see a similar tension from large cap pharma wanting to defend their territory.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely. [00:42:00] Yeah.
Joe Moore: And you know, we haven’t necessarily seen huge signal on that yet. I interviewed, um, Jr. Um, rom maybe from mind me, CEO co-founder or founder of Mind Me. Mm-hmm. They’re developing LSD and some other substances.
Joe Moore: It’s like, will your, and the question, it was a, it was a big fight in the middle of our recording, or at least I, that’s how I felt it. Um, are, is your company in the future going to spend money to squash decriminalization campaigns, um, or to keep the drug war going because there is financial incentive, especially in a publicly traded corporation, everybody to keep these things illegal.
Joe Moore: Um,
Jen Davenport: absolutely.
Joe Moore: And we have to figure out strategies through which. We disincentivize them from large cap pharma, that is from spending money to squishing, um, these less regulated markets. And how do we do that? I think that’s [00:43:00] a really big question that we all should be asking if we want diversity in drug access and psychedelic access.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Or do you only want Compass psilocybin?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, I mean, I, I think it’s a, a really great point in that, that that tension that’s gonna be created, um, from big Pharma. And I think, you know, as
Joe Moore: I wanna be clear, Jen, I want all these people to win. I think there’s a world in which we can all win.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Um, some people are just gonna have to like, put the gun down. At a certain point.
Jen Davenport: Well, that, that’s kind of the whole point of, of expanding access to psychedelics, right? You can’t fight when everybody loves each other.
Joe Moore: Um, so one of the hopes,
Jen Davenport: that’s the hope at least, right? That, that we, uh, that we all learn to just get along a little bit better with each other.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, I’d, I’d love for you to expand a little bit more on the access issue that gets created, um, in this [00:44:00] tension, um, between, you know, this, the, the decrim, um, angle and regulators like, like what do you see happening, uh, you’re close to what’s happening in Colorado? Can you be, can you give a little more perspective on that?
Joe Moore: So there’s a market crunch right now in Colorado and in Oregon where people followed all the rules. They did everything the state wanted them to do to get these businesses going, and they’re having a hard time. In Oregon, we’re seeing a lot of businesses close up shop. There’s, um, you know, psychedelics today in vital made very explicit decisions not to enter the Oregon and Colorado regulated markets for training.
Joe Moore: Um, you know, I had check in hand in both states and I actually said I should not actually mail this check. Um, because it just did not seem like a great situation. Um, a lot of training companies started up, everybody’s selling the moon. Yeah. And there’s [00:45:00] very few people who can get jobs or work in the ecosystem, um, for the longest time, and it might still even be the case.
Joe Moore: Is, uh, mushroom service centers, whatever they wanna call themselves, healing centers. Mm-hmm. They weren’t hiring people unless they were also clinicians. So like therapists?
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yes.
Joe Moore: Or psychologists. And like to, for me to be selling that training felt really disingenuous knowing that it was gonna be a really tight job market.
Joe Moore: So by selling a certification, you’re also saying like, yeah, totally. You can get a job. It’s like, well, you know, that’s what we do at Vital, but we’re not saying you’re gonna enter these, these regulated state frameworks. There’s plenty of positions out here. Um, there’s plenty of freelance work you can do.
Joe Moore: Yeah. But it’s not the case that you’re gonna be purely a state level legal worker. Um.
Jen Davenport: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, it’s, it’s really interesting just, just [00:46:00] thinking about, you know, intentions for going through the vital training and, you know, coming from the angle of, um, working with senior level executives who are under enormous stress, um, trying to find ways to, um, you know, people reach a level of, of burnout where depression is high, stress is high, anxiety is high, and, and especially for women who’ve.
Jen Davenport: A few decades in corporate America, they, they sometimes get to a point where they’re asking, um, is it, is this all there is? Right? And so when people bring these conversations to me, the, the intention is always to be able to give a credible answer about whether this is an avenue that’s safe to go down or not to go down.
Jen Davenport: And so I love your point that, you know, given [00:47:00] where we are in the regulatory framework, um, it’s important for people to recognize that, um, going down the path is, is something to be very thoughtfully considered. Um, and that there are many ways to. To approach wellness, um, and also to relieve the pressures that come with, um, with living in corporate America.
Jen Davenport: So, so this has been really helpful for me, Joe. I, I know we kind of pivoted sort of to my, i to my interview topics, and I think I’ve exhausted those questions, so I’m happy to, to turn it back around and, and go back to the conversation now of where, where do you wanna take it from here?
Joe Moore: Well, okay. So say somebody, all right.
Joe Moore: There’s, there’s all these people, they keep finding out about this topic.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: They kinda light on fire [00:48:00] for a little bit. They’re really excited. Um, and everybody’s like, oh, I wanna do everything I can to support this. You know? What, what in your opinion is like the first two or three things people might do before they kind of.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I don’t know. Sell their 401k and move to DC to lobby full time or whatever it is.
Jen Davenport: Well, education is at the top of the list, Joe. Right. I like, I think that, um, you know, we talked for a few minutes about powerful experiences and, um, education about what’s really going on in the psyche is, is first and foremost it has to happen.
Jen Davenport: Um, you know, making sure that a person has the tools and the capability to really integrate those experiences, I think is super important. Uh, uh. Individuals [00:49:00] have to be able to contextualize the experience for themselves before they try to go out and contextualize that for anybody else. Um, so education, personal context.
Jen Davenport: And then I think really staying abreast of, of trends in the industry and where things are going from, um, from a regulatory perspective is, is really important. Like I, I work at the, at the intersection of, or, or my, my personal passions really live at the intersection of psychology, spirituality, and human performance.
Jen Davenport: And so it’s just a natural topic that comes up in these conversations, but to your point, it’s a little bit more difficult to build a career. On the topic of psychedelics alone. And so really being sure about what the opportunities are and the angle [00:50:00] that you’re coming from, I think would be really important too.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Read, read, read. Listen, listen, listen.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: Take some classes. Um, so some good news, psychedelics Stay has over 750 podcasts you can pull from.
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: Um, we’ve got all sorts of articles you can read all for free. Um, there’s, you know, if you listen to two of those a day, you’ll be done in almost a year or two of those episodes a day.
Joe Moore: And then, um, you’ll be really educated. I promise you’ll have some fluency that you didn’t even know was possible on the topic. I think getting some experiences and being safe
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: With getting those experiences. So that could be. That could mean a lot of things and it’s gonna be different for everybody.
Joe Moore: You know, for some people it’s like the full rigorous Oregon, Colorado psilocybin approach, or there’s, there’s similar programs in [00:51:00] Netherlands or Jamaica available. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I don’t think the safest and, and first step is ayahuasca. Um, some people would, that’s what I did, but I don’t think it’s the right move.
Joe Moore: Um, and then
Jen Davenport: I think probably dipping the toe in the water in, in a little bit calmer waters is, is probably a good approach there.
Joe Moore: Right. And understand the legal situation
Jen Davenport: Absolutely.
Joe Moore: And make sure you’re not gonna get you or anybody else in trouble. Yeah. Um, that’s one of my personal, personal ethoses right, is I catch myself in binds all the time, Jen, where I’m like, I, I won’t do that business thing because there’s, there’s a world in which that gets people in trouble later.
Joe Moore: Uh,
Jen Davenport: legally. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think absolutely understanding the legal landscape and is there a way to practice this that, um, with is within legal bounds? Um, I think watching what’s happening on the, the medical accessibility scene is a great place [00:52:00] to, to start having the conversation. Um, you know, I think some of the experiences outside of the United States will continue to offer the experience sort of steeped in the, the spiritual and cultural traditions that I think could be a, an important aspect of the experience in general.
Jen Davenport: So I think that’s a great way to look at it as well.
Joe Moore: Right. And you know, shameless plug, um, the thing that kind of birthed vital is navigating psychedelics, and that is a nine week program. We’ve got that coming. In March 10, actually about six days, we, we kick off a nine week program. It’s gonna be awesome.
Joe Moore: Um, Kyle and I’ve taught it so many times and it informed in a huge way how we execute it on vital. Um, which I think is best thing going, you know, best thing since sliced bread. And uh, really I love that. Love that. [00:53:00] You know, anybody can take this. If you’re in high school, you got a credit card, you could probably take it.
Joe Moore: We probably want to get your parents to say yes, but yeah, like, you know, anybody can take this from an anesthesiologist to psychiatrist to you know, anybody. And, and you know, if you take this we’ll give you a discount on Vital if you choose to continue with us. Um, we’re actually launching a buy one and bring a friend program today for navigating psychedelics.
Joe Moore: So it’s, um, you know, nine weeks you and a friend, plus a bunch of other new friends at. Navigating psychedelics and you get your foundations, you get your orientation around what is this weird space? What is what? There’s so much I don’t know about because a lot of people, like they read Michael Pollen, right?
Joe Moore: Or watched the Netflix thing and they’re like, oh, this is, this is what it is. And it’s like, well, I don’t know. Do you, do you think it’s different from what popular media paints it? This whole ecosystem?
Jen Davenport: Yes, I do. I, I think that there’s, [00:54:00] um, there are a lot of differences from what, um, the, the media is talking about.
Jen Davenport: And I think it depends on what media channel you’re going down, right? Um, I think that. One of the important distinctions that I would say is that the use of psychedelics can be really destabilizing in the beginning, right? And so I think that’s something that people should really be prepared for, and that’s where education comes in.
Jen Davenport: Um, not everybody has the luxury of being destabilized for weeks or even months when they start digging into what might come up, um, with the use of psychedelics. And so, so I think that’s really an important thing to delve into and understand before anybody goes down a journey like that. Especially diving into a big experience like ayahuasca or considering some sort of hero [00:55:00] dose, which I wouldn’t recommend to anybody as a way to, to dip their toe in the water.
Joe Moore: Right. Let’s not get started there.
Jen Davenport: That’s a whole different podcast, right?
Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. So really be careful. So. Thing I’ve been pivoting to lately, Jen, is why, in part why we started mm-hmm. Is having college kids have an easier time. Absolutely. Um, not needing so much help and then that, that kind of just keeps it, it’s kind of an undercurrent here.
Joe Moore: It’s how not only can we have people having really great outcomes
Jen Davenport: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: But also people not needing, um, any medical attention from this at all. How can we appropriately screen as a community? Yeah. Um, how can we get the right care to the right people at the right time, you know, whatever that is. Um, and the more education we have and the more careful we are, the [00:56:00] less bad stories are in the news.
Joe Moore: And the less ammo there is to fuel the drug war.
Jen Davenport: Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I I, you, you said you were giving yourself a shameless plug, Joe, but I’ll be the first to stand up and say how much I valued all of the information that comes from psychedelics today. Like from the very beginning, engaging with your organization.
Jen Davenport: It’s been about education and harm reduction. And I think that’s so important, particularly as we look at how do we, um, how do we safely lead people to better outcomes for themselves? People who’ve suffered from trauma, violence, war, um, people who are just really looking to broaden their perspective and love more like.
Jen Davenport: Using the minimum amount of any sort of substance to achieve the desired outcome is the ideal way to [00:57:00] go. And you guys have structured that so well and kept such an amazing focus on transparency and, and, um, really understanding the impacts. I, I will send anybody who asks me questions about whether psychedelics are the way to go right to psychedelics today.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. I love this. Not, not planned anybody, uh, out there. Um, but this is awesome and I appreciate you saying that. And I, that’s, that’s what we’ve wanted to do from the beginning is, you know, these things are very interesting. They can be very helpful, they can be all the way helpful or they can be quite challenging and not all that helpful.
Joe Moore: And there’s a number of organizations that just really hype it hard and, you know, I’ve been guilty of that as well, but that’s not what I want to be creating.
Jen Davenport: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: You know, I want to create like a really honest platform because I think that humans [00:58:00] deserve a better relationship to substance and that, you know, psychedelics today wants to have a, a role in that.
Jen Davenport: Well, I’m certainly a fan Joe, and I really appreciate all of the hard work and effort that you put into the conversation. You know, I’d love to leave you with one last question, if that’s okay.
Joe Moore: Sure. I
Jen Davenport: mean, we’ve, we’ve covered, we’ve touched on research policy, leadership, curiosity. Does this belong in boardrooms?
Jen Davenport: And so if, if we were having the conversation five years from now, what do you think will have changed the most in the psychedelic landscape?
Joe Moore: Oh, the prediction game. Um,
Jen Davenport: what do we need to do? What do we need to do to affect the change?
Joe Moore: Um,
Joe Moore: Terrance McKenna planted this idea in my mind. I’m sure he didn’t create the concept, but the idea [00:59:00] is to live as far into the future as you can, the future that you want as you can. So can you be, you know, living as though the world is 15 years into the, the most optimal future you can believe in. You know, in terms of like kind of dragging the world towards that, it kind of creates this attractor.
Joe Moore: He had this whole concept, a strange attractor at the end of time, and it’s like, you know, we can in some way actually by living in these ways and thinking in these ways be affecting major change that can help so many people. And
Jen Davenport: I believe that’s
Joe Moore: true. That’s what I really wanna see. So it’s, you know, how are we creating new, strange, psychedelic economies, um, energy exchange communities, things along those lines that, that aren’t, you know, we don’t necessarily need PayPal in the middle of everything.
Jen Davenport: Yes.
Joe Moore: You know, what are, yeah. We don’t need somebody else’s platform mediating our interactions all the time. They can [01:00:00] be really helpful. But is that the way you want to interact with the rest of humanity for the rest of your life and, and for your ancestors and family to, you know, to be doing, and I don’t know.
Joe Moore: I don’t, I don’t think so. Um, yeah, and, you know, do your best to cover your tracks, get a, get some, get some private email, and get on signal and get those messages disappearing. So, you know, you don’t really, you don’t want to get yourself in trouble here. Um, we had a quick comment. I don’t know if I, it’s a good idea to put this up.
Joe Moore: Well, this one, this looks positive. Um, so we had one here. It’s about, um, RFK, and I’ve got all sorts of opinions. Leverage him as much as possible, you know, perhaps I don’t know how to, um, yeah, I don’t know. Like, I think, I think there’s a world in which RFK can be useful to [01:01:00] us. I don’t know. I. Yet how useful he will be.
Joe Moore: He did go on Rogan recently and, and said some positive things. I, you know, he promised he had some sort of promise that in 12 months we were gonna have prescription psychedelics for veterans. Um, and I, I don’t think we have that yet. Um,
Jen Davenport: yeah,
Joe Moore: but, you know, politicians and promises, um, and can I believe him?
Joe Moore: I don’t know yet. I need to listen to that Rogan interview. I need to like, read a few more of his positions. I’ve heard that there’s a huge amount getting in his way from making progress on psychedelics. Um, turns out his boss isn’t, you know, psychedelics aren’t his boss’ biggest priority. Um, and I think I’ve heard some things along those lines.
Joe Moore: Same thing with cannabis. It’s not like the priority. So, um, you know, perhaps I don’t, I don’t like giving my power away to the biggest names in the world. I would say. [01:02:00] How can we use our own power to make. Change more locally and you know, coordinate appropriately to make larger federal and international change.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, I think grassroots is gonna be where it’s at for this particular topic and moving the needle towards, towards access, education, all the things that are important to us.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Well. Jen, thanks so much for doing this with me. Yeah. Where can people find your work?
Jen Davenport: Sure. Um, you can find me at Iron Thread Partners.
Jen Davenport: That’s my, that’s my corporate consulting and coaching brand. And I also have Burning Heart Collective. That’s my brand for helping people to integrate big, spiritual and psychedelic experiences. So I really believe it’s important for people to have support if they do venture out, if they do go and dip their toe in the water.
Jen Davenport: So, um, burning Heart collective.com would be the [01:03:00] place to go for that. And if there are topics around human performance, leadership development, iron thread partners.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Yeah. Um, a few plugs here, um, vital. We’re hoping to start that up again in October, so you can apply vital psychedelic training.
Joe Moore: We’ve got navigating psychedelics that starts up March 10. Please check that out. Everybody. Navigating psychedelics, essentials of psychedelic therapy and integration. I love that program so much and I’m so excited we’re offering it again. Then we have, um, a, geez, it’s a complicated name and I keep forgetting it.
Joe Moore: Um, but effectively it’s a depth psychology kind of seminar day with a bunch of speakers and, and panels. It’s called Expanding Horizons in Mental Health, psychedelics, depth in the Human Psyche. That begins Sunday, March 15. That’s a really interesting event. Folks should definitely check that out. As always, please subscribe, um, follow, follow us [01:04:00] everywhere you can on socials.
Joe Moore: Leave us some reviews anywhere you can, um, and get on our email list. And, um, thank you so much. Thank you, Jen, for being here, doing this with us and hope we can do more in the future.
Jen Davenport: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe.

February 19, 2026February 19, 2026

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman: Federal Psychedelic Policy, VA Pathways, and Ibogaine Safety Standards

PT 649 - Mission Within Foundation and Psychedelic Medicine Coalition - Melissa Lavasani and Jay Kopelman

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States.

The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care.

Early Episode Topics

Lavasani describes PMC’s work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines.

Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction.

They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why they are focusing efforts at the VA. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets.

Core Insights

A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains.

Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible.

Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed:

Standardized safety protocols across providers
Integration support, not medication alone
Clear training pathways for clinicians
Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials

They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence.

Later Discussion and Takeaways

The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement.

Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements.

For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct:

Veterans are likely the first federal pathway
Public education remains essential
Safety standards must be shared and transparent
Integration and workforce development need attention now

If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success.

Frequently Asked Questions

What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy?
They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care.

Is ibogaine currently available through the VA?
No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program.

Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination?
Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities.

What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman?
They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events.

Closing

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement.

Transcript

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We’re gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I’m sure.

Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me.

Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it’s a pleasure. Thanks.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines.

Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that’s going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue’s success because, um, when we’re talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority.

Melissa Lavasani: And there’s guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it’s, it’s really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now.

Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress.

Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine.

Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level.

Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we’ve, we’ve been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we’re also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress.

Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let’s chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It’s called For Veteran Society and it’s all, um, there’s a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I’ve been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of.

Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman.

Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we’re just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success.

Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That’s fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn’t make it, but next time, I hope. But I’ve heard a lot of good things and, um, it’s, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We’re very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we’re all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it’s, it’s, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that’s like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don’t wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we’ve got one cha one chance at this issue. And it’s like, that’s, that’s kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they’re new and they’re fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it.

Melissa Lavasani: And there’s a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we’ve gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn’t have the level of knowledge that we all have.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we’re sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we’re not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don’t need to talk about. It’s why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now.

Melissa Lavasani: Not because we’re a veteran organization, but because we’re, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it’s a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that.

Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What’s something that we’re paying too much attention to that doesn’t necessarily need that much attention? So it’s, um, it’s a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman’s Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don’t necessarily qualify for clinical trials.

Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that’s one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you’re cre you’re creating a vacuum for people and people don’t live in a vacuum. So we don’t necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there’s a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we’ve got one shot at this.

Melissa Lavasani: We have people’s attention in Congress. Um, now’s the time to start acting, and let’s be really considerate and thoughtful about what we’re doing with it.

Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that.

Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it’s a, it’s a good jumping off point, right? That it’s something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind.

Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it’s, it, it’s an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract.

Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I’m going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that’s the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don’t have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can’t.

Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don’t, I’m not saying they don’t, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know.

Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world’s best shipbuilding program. Why doesn’t the VA have the world’s best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there’s, there’s an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front.

Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it’s kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they’re doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it’s time for a trip to Home Depot.

Jay Kopelman: Let’s get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what’s broken, which is really the way of doing things. It’s not, veterans aren’t broken, we are who we are. Um, but it’s a, it’s a way to fix what isn’t working. So I, I think that, you know, given there’s tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we’ve, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality.

Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn’t be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there’s a lot of things that got us here. Um, it’s not necessarily the operator’s fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right?

Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there’s, there’s risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate.

Joe Moore: Like there’s no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don’t, I don’t necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I’ve heard rumors that something’s gonna happen there, and I’m, I’m hopeful I’ll always wanna share my opinion on that.

Joe Moore: But yeah. I don’t know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I’ll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right?

Jay Kopelman: They’ve been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it’s like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don’t feel well, you get sick.

Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You’re on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv.

Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it’s, I think it’s just a matter of.

Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You’ve gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You’ve gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they’re not called standard operating procedures for nothing.

Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It’s true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let’s say the F 35 now, right? Because it’s flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you’re gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it’s still pretty much the, the same thing.

Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety’s paramount. It’s always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we’ll work with this provider.

Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you’ll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they’ve, they’ve cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because.

Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don’t know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient’s system? You know, there, there are things there that we don’t know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don’t know.

Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven’t been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it’s safe, and I trust their opinion because they’ve seen it elsewhere as well.

Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it’s almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there’s a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what’s called a safety standout. And you don’t do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again?

Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don’t want to do that. Like, we don’t wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00]

Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let’s get like the, I don’t know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief.

Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here’s what we see. Let’s work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it’s hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about ’cause it’s illicit here. Um, I don’t understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that’s something to like the public should dig into.

Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I’ll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody’s using and there’s no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That’s just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that’s like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other.

Jay Kopelman: It’s not like we don’t all know one another, right?

Joe Moore: Yes.

Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we’re represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes.

Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn’t see that. Um,

Melissa Lavasani: all right, I’m off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay’s hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it’s just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that’s just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it’s a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let’s be honest, like if we don’t start collaborating and, and the federal government’s moving forward, the federal government’s gonna coordinate for us.

Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn’t, and they’re not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It’s really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things.

Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one’s gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I’ve, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we’re not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it’s like, just let’s get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there’s plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about.

Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that’s going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don’t think we’ve done a great job at that thus far, but I think there’s still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I’m hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other.

Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there’s an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we’ve organized and here’s how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster.

Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it’s, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren’t necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there’s certainly places that need attention. Um, there’s certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it.

Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that’s like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn’t really care about in the early eighties.

Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before.

Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics.

Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah.

Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it’s important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing.

Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don’t target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I’ve seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space.

Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they’re trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole.

Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that’s where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats.

Jay Kopelman: But we’re also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he’s doing that will have 40 patients in it when it’s all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we’ll hit the 40. So there, there’s a lot of good here that’s being done by some really, really good people who’ve been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this.

Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don’t have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need.

Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don’t think we’ve touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn’t designed for that. So it’s gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it’s not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home.

Jay Kopelman: You don’t just do that, you’ve gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I’m not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it’s very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own.

Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it’s, once it’s in place, you know, the sky’s the limit. I think.

Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what’s, what’s going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00]

Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn’t preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right?

Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don’t have to treat them again.

Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who’s not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it’s like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work.

Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I’m concerned, because this is coming and we’re gonna need the people. It’s just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that’s unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that.

Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there’s gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so,

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward.

Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there’s nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that’s really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they’re dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn’t just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it’s a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there’s also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there’s been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that’s really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of.

Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there’s a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it’s like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block.

Melissa Lavasani: And I think it’s, I don’t think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It’s like, let’s look at what, [00:38:00] um, what’s just been announced from the White House. They’re, they’re all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F.

Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior’s goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone’s talking about psychedelics.

Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there’s like a lot of undue frustration within folks ’cause um, you don’t necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it’s intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes.

Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we’re a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don’t, aren’t necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there’s a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move.

Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines.

Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It’s been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was,

Melissa Lavasani: that’s on me.

Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what’s actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it’s just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it’s, it’s, it’s not the photo ops on the hill, it’s the conversations that you have.

Melissa Lavasani: It’s the dinner parties you go to, it’s the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That’s why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There’s, it’s, there are like power players here.

Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend’s house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we’re reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills.

Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it’s, it’s really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right?

Jay Kopelman: But real life happens.

Melissa Lavasani: Yes,

Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So,

Melissa Lavasani: yeah,

Jay Kopelman: I, I can’t imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there’s so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right.

Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it’s then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn’t help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that.

Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it’s, you know, we’re not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah,

Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It’s, it’s understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It’s nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you’re making me go to Mexico for this.

Joe Moore: I did that and you’re making me leave the country for the thing that’s gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it’s also, let’s face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place.

Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It’s a, it’s a dire situation out there.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right?

Jay Kopelman: And you know, it’s not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don’t have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that.

Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it’s, I I don’t think it’s fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it’s not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it’s not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We’re individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don’t think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees.

Jay Kopelman: It’s not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we’re all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they’re 76, not 66. Some look like they’re 56. Not like they’re, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts.

Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they’re addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana.

Jay Kopelman: Somebody’s smoking a joint and all of a sudden they’re addicted to fentanyl or they die.

Melissa Lavasani: I think we’re having a,

Jay Kopelman: it’s, it’s just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many.

Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is.

Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you’re, you know, two years later you’re on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that’s tough. It’s really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well.

Joe Moore: But it’s just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It’s not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it’s like you come back and you’re like, what’s gonna make me feel okay right now? And it’s not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there’s not great treatments and there’s, there’s a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen.

Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there’s, it’s, it’s, IGA is gonna be great. It’s gonna be really important. I really can’t wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there’s a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don’t need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy.

Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do

Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I’ve been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things?

Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it’ll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched.

Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that’s doing very well. I mean, it’s probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now.

Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you’re talking about Schedule one

Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don’t have the money to research things that are on Schedule one.

Melissa Lavasani: ’cause there’s so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it’s just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, but

Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh,

Melissa Lavasani: right.

Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it’ll be really interesting when that happens. I’m gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that’s potentially a protectionist move.

Joe Moore: Like, I’m not, I’m not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie’s, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that’s a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they’re gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it’s likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don’t, I don’t see a world in which it’s not an approved medication.

Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don’t know a timeline, I would say

Jay Kopelman: yeah.

Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they’ve got. But who knows, like, I haven’t followed it too closely. So, and that’s an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you’re not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don’t know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there’s like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I’m excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren’t gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever.

Joe Moore: You know, it’s,

Jay Kopelman: well, I think it’s a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there’s the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There’s the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us.

Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn’t add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes.

Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There’s a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there’s everything from, you know, I’m Jay, I’m involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association.

Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um,

Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but,

Joe Moore: oh gosh, let’s

Jay Kopelman: talk

Joe Moore: later.

Jay Kopelman: That’s self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but

Melissa Lavasani: yeah,

Jay Kopelman: I’m [00:53:00] not, I’m not that smart.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I’m endlessly hopeful pull because I’m still here. Right. I, I’ve been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement.

Joe Moore: It’s not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic.

Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um

Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: And I think there’s no way that we’re not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don’t know. Do you, are you all taking odds?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think

Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they’re saying.

Melissa Lavasani: I think it’s safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there’s gonna be at least one psychedelic that’s FDA approved.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Lavasani: If you’re not counting Ketamine.

Joe Moore: Right.

Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn’t make sense that it. Shouldn’t be or wouldn’t be. Right. The, we’ve seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It’s at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment.

Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I’d love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I’m bringing my newsletter back because I’m realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What’s happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC’s value is that we’re, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city.

Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what’s actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement?

Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we’re putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we’re covering all the ground that we need to cover. We’re talking to the patient groups, we’re talking to traditional mental health organizations, we’re talking to the medical community, we’re talking to the general population.

Melissa Lavasani: I think that’s like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story’s always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00]

Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that’s how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what’s happening in these clinical trials, what the data’s been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this.

Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven’t you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we’re at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they’re willing to move on it.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, there’s another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there’s still so many offices that we haven’t been able to get to just ’cause like we don’t have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that’s.

Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they’re not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It’s like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be.

Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we’re all, we’re all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We’re just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I’m really excited about the future and I’m, I’ve been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future.

Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation.

Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they’ve, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports.

Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they’ve provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don’t wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right.

Jay Kopelman: And I’d just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us.

Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future.

Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It’s a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always

Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space.

Joe Moore: Thanks.

February 2, 2026February 3, 2026

Patient Safety After a Death: What Transparency Can and Cannot Do

Psychedelics Today - Ibogaine Safety after an incident

A Tragedy at an Ibogaine Clinic — and the Policy Failure Behind It

A patient death in any care setting is a tragedy. In this case, it involves ibogaine, a medically complex intervention that sits outside regulated medical systems in the United States.

On January 21, 2026, Ambio published a public statement reporting that a patient “recently passed away while participating in Ambio’s Detoxification Program.” Ambio did not disclose the person’s identity or additional details, citing privacy.

At the time of writing, key facts remain unconfirmed publicly. Ambio is a clinic governed by privacy laws. Generally in situations like these, providers can’t release patient details without consent from the family (think HIPAA rules). The cause of death has not been established in a public record. In situations like this, speculation fills the gap quickly, and it often hardens into certainty before evidence exists.

Ambio is bound to privacy rules, just like other clinics. They did acknowledge the incident publicly, which is more than what many operators choose to do. That does not resolve unanswered questions, and it does not remove risk. It does set a tone. In a field where silence is often treated as the safer option, plain communication helps.

This death should not trigger a rush to assign certainty where none exists.

The Limits of Working Alone

Ibogaine is not a casual intervention, particularly in detox contexts. Its risk profile is well known among clinicians and experienced providers. Cardiac risks, including QT prolongation and arrhythmias, can be relevant. Electrolyte shifts and drug interactions are important to track. Ibogaine and noribogaine have long half lives, which complicate monitoring and follow up. Many people seeking ibogaine arrive with complex substance use histories, co-occurring conditions, and a body already under strain.

Anyone who has spent time around ibogaine work knows how much safety knowledge lives informally inside individual clinics, shared verbally, adjusted on the fly, and rarely written down.

Some have hundreds of SOPs, and some have very few.

What is missing across much of the ibogaine ecosystem is not awareness of risk. It is a shared infrastructure for learning from it.

Many ibogaine providers operate as islands. Screening standards vary. Near misses and adverse events may be handled internally. There is no widely adopted registry and no protected reporting channel that allows clinics to share safety information without elevating legal exposure.

For providers, sharing details can, as of today, break privacy rules, create civil liability risk, criminal scrutiny, or the loss of the ability to operate.

Here is a paper out of UC Davis that discusses one configuration that may help the field.

This isolation is not just cultural, it is structural.

Addiction Under Prohibition

Worth keeping in mind, is that the global marketplace for drugs –including substances like fentanyl – and heroin is inconsistent, and rife with problems. There are MANY new drugs hitting markets worldwide that can impact how people need to detox. Novel drugs can also introduce new confounding factors when introducing complicated medicines like ibogaine. Ibogaine detox clinics are facing this issue head on without much data about what these substances are, and how long they could impact people pursuing detoxification. Ambio cites this problem in its statement, saying:

“… we feel it is important, during a period of increasing interest in the promise offered by ibogaine treatment, to reiterate that there are ongoing risks associated with ibogaine as a detoxification treatment. Recently, these risks have been heightened and underscored by the increasing number of dangerous, unknown, and ever-changing adulterants in the global supply of street fentanyl.”

What “Prohibition” Means in Practice for Ibogaine

When people refer to prohibition in the context of ibogaine, they often mean more than illegality.

In the United States, ibogaine’s legal status produces several practical effects. It limits formal clinical pathways and pushes patients toward care outside regulated healthcare systems. It complicates research and funding, slowing evidence development. It drives medical tourism into mixed legal environments. It discourages transparency by making safety communication legally risky. It keeps the field fragmented by making coordination feel dangerous.

Prohibition does not eliminate demand. It tends to suppress coordination, data sharing, and the pace at which safety practices improve.

If ibogaine were legal and regulated in the United States, safety could be addressed more openly. Standards could be shared. Data could be pooled. Protocols could change in response to evidence rather than rumor. Under current policy, much of this remains difficult, and safety advances remain uneven.

Why a Central Safety Effort Exists in Medicine

In regulated medicine, systems exist to learn from adverse events and near misses. They are imperfect, but they exist because isolated practice reliably repeats preventable harm.

If the ibogaine field wants fewer tragedies, it needs a central mechanism for safety learning. That could take the form of an industry association, a trade group, a university affiliated project, or a nonprofit coalition or consortium with clear legal and ethical guardrails.

This structure should protect and incentivise learning from experience.

To their credit, Ambio did acknowledge that they are improving protocols based on this incident and are sharing their modifications to help the field improve safety outcomes.

Established providers, with medical oversight, need a way to share what went wrong and what changed afterward without turning every report into a liability event. These databases will likely need to protect PII (personal identifying information) and will have access tightly restricted to approved researchers. Medicine handles this well elsewhere. This is essential because practitioners need baseline standards that evolve with evidence. Researchers need access to usable real world data. Patients need safety knowledge that travels with the practice, not just with individual clinics.

Bryan Hubbard’s proposed IbogaVerse points toward one possible model, meaning a structured cross provider effort focused on safety data and protocol refinement. Work like this is routine in regulated healthcare. In prohibited care, it remains optional and risky.

A practical starting point is simple: a standing working group among established providers with medical oversight, plus outside clinical and research input, and a clear firewall between quality improvement and public blame. Not a tribunal. A safety table.

Here is one example of an effort from a few years back. Clinical Guidelines for Ibogaine-Assisted Detoxification (2016).

The Cost of a Broken Treatment System

This death also sits within broader failures in addiction care in the United States. The dominant treatment model absorbs enormous spending, yet many people struggle to find sustained support after discharge. Outcomes vary widely. People cycle through multiple episodes of care when follow up, housing, or mental health support is insufficient.

That pattern reflects system design, not just individual choices.

As Americans for Ibogaine and others have argued, policymakers have not funded serious research pathways for ibogaine at a scale that demand and risk would justify. When government declines to study a practice people are already pursuing, it does not necessarily reduce use. It shifts risk onto patients and onto providers operating in legal gray zones.

If federal and state governments are serious about returning people to their families and communities, they should fund rigorous research, build regulated pilot pathways, and compare outcomes honestly against existing models rather than treating those models as fixed.

Spending is substantial. Results are inconsistent.

A Way Forward

Ambio’s decision to acknowledge the death publicly was constructive and makes more serious conversation possible.

What comes next should be unglamorous: shared standards, shared learning, and protected reporting of adverse events. This work will not fully mature under prohibition, but parts of it can begin now among established providers willing to coordinate around patient safety.

The larger fix is policy. Keep forcing ibogaine into the margins and serious harms will remain part of the risk patients and providers quietly carry. Allow research and coordination to happen in the open and safety can improve faster.

Until research and regulation catch up, the limits of the system will continue to set the ceiling on safety.

Disclaimer

This article is for informational purposes only and does not provide medical advice. Ibogaine carries serious medical risks, including cardiac complications and death. Anyone considering ibogaine should consult qualified medical professionals, understand the legal risks in their jurisdiction, and approach treatment claims with caution.

January 21, 2026January 22, 2026

Did New Jersey Really Just Legalize Psilocybin?

What S2283 Actually Does — and Why It Is a Research Pilot, Not Legalization

In January 2026, the New Jersey Legislature passed Senate Bill S2283, formally titled the Psilocybin Behavioral Health Access and Services Act. On January 20, 2026, shortly before leaving office, Governor Phil Murphy signed the bill into law.

Despite widespread media coverage suggesting that New Jersey has “legalized psilocybin,” S2283 does not create legal public access to psilocybin. Instead, it establishes a narrow, state-run, hospital-based research pilot designed to study the clinical use of psilocybin under tightly controlled medical conditions.

What the Bill Does

At its core, S2283 creates a Psilocybin Behavioral Health Access and Therapy Pilot Program under the authority of the New Jersey Department of Health. The purpose of the program is explicitly evaluative: to generate clinical outcome data and assess whether psilocybin therapy should play a role in New Jersey’s future mental health care system.

Key elements include:

Hospital-based pilot program
One hospital from each of New Jersey’s three regions (North, Central, and South) will be selected through a competitive process. These hospitals will be authorized to administer psilocybin exclusively within hospital settings under medical supervision. The pilot will run for two years.

Department of Health oversight
The New Jersey Department of Health is responsible for rulemaking, implementation, and compliance. The program remains embedded within existing medical and regulatory frameworks.

Alignment with federal standards
The pilot must operate in a manner consistent with FDA clinical trial guidelines and federal drug regulations. The program is research-focused rather than a public access or service model.

Data collection and reporting
Participating hospitals must collect clinical and experiential outcome data and submit findings to the Governor and Legislature. These reports will inform any future policy decisions regarding psilocybin therapy in the state.

Advisory board
An 11-member multidisciplinary advisory board will oversee safety, review outcomes, and make recommendations to the Legislature regarding potential expansion or modification of the program.

Appropriated funding
The bill allocates $6 million to support the pilot, with each participating hospital eligible to receive up to $2 million for research and program operations.

What the Bill Does Not Do

S2283 is intentionally limited in scope. It does not legalize, decriminalize, or broadly authorize access to psilocybin.

Specifically, the bill does not:

Legalize psilocybin for adult or public use
Decriminalize possession, cultivation, or distribution
Create licensed psilocybin service centers open to the public
Permit independent facilitators, guides, or non-hospital providers
Establish a commercial production or distribution system
Provide expungement or retroactive relief for past psilocybin-related convictions

While some earlier drafts contained broader elements, these provisions were removed during the legislative process. The final bill is focused narrowly on clinical research.

Expungement: A Notable Absence

One of the most consequential omissions in S2283 is the absence of expungement provisions. Individuals previously arrested or convicted for psilocybin-related offenses receive no legal relief under this legislation.

From a harm-reduction and justice perspective, this omission reinforces the bill’s strictly medical and institutional framing rather than a comprehensive public health or equity-based approach. Expungement remains governed by New Jersey’s existing criminal record statutes, which operate independently of this pilot.

How New Jersey Compares to Other States

States are taking markedly different approaches to psilocybin policy, reflecting divergent assumptions about access, risk, and governance.

Oregon: Regulated Adult Access

Oregon was the first state to establish a statewide, non-medical psilocybin services system through Measure 109.

Legal psilocybin services for adults 21+
No medical diagnosis required
Licensed service centers and facilitators
Non-medical, wellness-oriented framework

Oregon treats psilocybin as a regulated service rather than a prescription medication and intentionally situates it outside traditional healthcare systems.

Colorado: Decriminalization Plus Regulated Healing Centers

Colorado took a different and arguably more radical path through Proposition 122, which:

Decriminalizes personal possession, cultivation, and sharing of certain natural psychedelic plants and fungi, including psilocybin
Establishes a pathway for licensed healing centers
Allows access for adults 21+ without requiring a diagnosis
Creates protections against criminal penalties for personal use
Recognition of community-based and non-clinical use

Colorado’s model combines personal liberty with regulated access and explicit harm-reduction principles.

New Mexico: Medical Legalization With Delayed Access

New Mexico’s new Medical Psilocybin Act (SB 219) was signed into law in April 2025.

Medical psilocybin authorized for qualifying diagnoses
A regulated program where licensed clinicians can provide psilocybin in approved facilities only
Advisory board and phased implementation
Program expected to be operational by 2026–2027

New Mexico adopts a medicalized approach but authorizes eventual patient access rather than research alone.

New Jersey: Hospital-Based Research Pilot

No decriminalization
No public access
No licensed service centers
Strictly hospital-based and research-oriented

New Jersey remains in an evaluation phase rather than an access phase.

Final Thoughts

New Jersey’s S2283 represents a cautious, data-driven entry into psychedelic policy. It is neither legalization nor comprehensive reform. Instead, it reflects a decision to study psilocybin therapy within highly controlled medical environments before considering broader policy changes.

Clear public discourse requires precision, especially when early-stage research is mistaken for access. While S2283 is a meaningful development, it should be understood for what it is: a limited research pilot, not a transformation of psilocybin law in New Jersey.

January 11, 2026June 11, 2026

From Brussels to the Ballot: How PsychedeliCare Took Psychedelic Therapy to the European Public

PsychedeliCare EU - Article on Psychedelics Today

Théo was stuck. At twenty-something, he had everything that should have made sense on paper: a political science degree, a job in the European Parliament, and involvement with advocacy groups. His career trajectory looked right, but something fundamental was missing. “I didn’t really like what I was doing,” he admits. “I couldn’t find meaning in my job.”

Then something shifted. During an exploratory evening with psilocybin shared with friends, Théo encountered something he hadn’t been looking for: profound relief. “This experience benefited my mental health in a way I could have never imagined before.”

For someone without a background in psychiatry or neuroscience, this was disorienting. He began researching widely and quickly encountered a substantial body of evidence: clinical trials showing how psychedelics could help people with treatment-resistant depression, end-of-life anxiety, addiction, and other conditions where conventional medicine often fell short.

The disconnect became unbearable. While research momentum accelerated, access to care remained largely out of reach. The contrast between scientific progress and political inertia became increasingly difficult to ignore.

Through his studies, Théo was familiar with the European Citizens’ Initiative (ECI), a democratic mechanism that allows EU citizens to formally petition the European Commission by collecting one million signatures within twelve months. He also knew the landscape well: by 2023 lobbying groups like Psychedelic Access Research European Alliance (PAREA) and Psychedelics Europe were beginning to take shape. Yet something was missing. There was no clear signal to political circles that ordinary citizens across Europe needed change to mental health policy.

So Théo made a choice to align his political skills with this emerging field and work to ensure that access to psychedelic-assisted therapy (PAT) would not be left to chance. In 2023, he began contacting associations, drafting requests, and shaping what would become PsychedeliCare EU. By January 2025, the ECI signature campaign had officially launched. What began as a personal shift evolved into a pan-European initiative.

PsychedeliCare emerged as a grassroots initiative, formed not by institutions or established lobbying structures, but by a small group of citizens who felt that waiting for top-down reform was no longer sufficient. In January 2023, the initiative began with just ten people sharing a common vision. Within a year, it had grown into a network of more than 200 volunteers across Europe, each bringing distinct professional backgrounds and personal motivations.

Operating at a European scale presents unique challenges. The EU is a rich tapestry of 27 countries with distinct languages, cultures, histories, and attitudes—particularly around mental health and drug policy. Public perceptions vary widely: what is accepted in one country may remain taboo or heavily regulated in another.

Europe’s governance combines EU-level coordination with national decision-making. While EU institutions can set broad policy direction, health and drug laws largely remain the responsibility of individual member states, adding complexity and often slowing progress. As a result, coordinated action across borders is essential to move in a unified direction. Awareness remains one of the most urgent challenges in the psychedelic field. Across much of Europe, psychedelics are still commonly associated with danger, illegality, or counterculture, rather than with therapy, research, or care. This framing has contributed to widespread misunderstanding and, in practice, has pushed many people toward unregulated underground use, often without adequate support or safety structures.

For this reason, public education became a central focus of the initiative. Over the past year, PsychedeliCare volunteers brought evidence-based information into settings where these conversations had rarely taken place, including cultural festivals, community events, and academic and professional symposia. These spaces frequently evolved into informal moments of harm-reduction education, legal literacy, and shared storytelling among patients, clinicians, and researchers.

Rather than producing immediate, visible outcomes, the impact of this work is unfolding gradually. The effects of awareness are difficult to quantify. They appear less in formal metrics than in subtle changes: increased curiosity, new collaborations, and conversations that previously felt impossible. Over time, these shifts are translating into local engagement, as citizens and organizations seek ways to participate and contribute.

From the outset, the initiative recognized that scientific data alone rarely moves policy. Human stories give evidence its force. PsychedeliCare therefore centered patient voices, not as emotional framing around science, but as evidence in their own right.

Patients carry knowledge clinicians and researchers can describe but never fully convey: chronic exhaustion, isolation, and the erosion of hope when available treatments fail. When patients speak about their experiences with psychedelic-assisted therapy, they describe concrete changes—relief, reconnection, and renewed agency—grounding abstract debate in lived reality. However, stigma persists, exposing patients to judgment and professional risk. In several contexts, patient testimony has helped shift policy discussions toward the human consequences of delayed access.

As the PsychedeliCare ECI approaches the end of its formal campaign period, it is important to assess outcomes with clarity. The ECI is intentionally a high-threshold democratic instrument, requiring not only agreement but public identification with a cause. In the context of psychedelic-assisted therapy, that step remains socially and culturally challenging in many parts of Europe.

The signature count does not reflect a lack of need or effort, but rather how constrained public expression around this topic remains. This reality helps ground a more honest conversation about what comes next. The work ahead is not solely legislative, but cultural, shaped by decades of stigma. Creating conditions in which people feel safe enough to speak openly remains a prerequisite for policy change.

Over the past year, PsychedeliCare has built relationships with partner organizations across Europe, engaged public figures from science and culture, and attracted interest from a range of stakeholders. While the signature campaign concludes in January, the broader engagement continues beyond the formal ECI process.

The next phase, informally referred to as PsychedeliCare 2.0, builds on these foundations with a focus on long-term engagement, education, and collaboration. Its core premise remains unchanged: that psychedelic-assisted therapies require safe, ethical, and evidence-based pathways into European health care systems.

Change at this scale does not emerge from a single initiative or institution. It develops through sustained dialogue among stakeholders and civil society more broadly. PsychedeliCare’s first phase illustrated what coordinated, citizen-led action can initiate. The work ahead lies in continuing that exchange, carefully and responsibly, across contexts and communities.

A Shared Invitation

PsychedeliCare EU is an open invitation to move beyond stigma and silence toward a mental-health future grounded in evidence, care, and shared responsibility.

This movement belongs to everyone who shapes that future: citizens whose lived experience gives it meaning; researchers and clinicians who safeguard its integrity and ethics; educators who foster understanding; and policymakers who turn insight into systems that serve people.

To anyone who cares about mental health in Europe—whether you bring expertise, experience, or curiosity—there is a place for you here. The future of psychedelic care will not be built by a few but shaped collectively.

To join PsychedeliCare’s growing community, please contact info@psychedelicare.eu

January 9, 2026January 21, 2026

Psychedelic Medicine at the Edge of Science and Spirit

In recent years, something quietly disruptive has been occurring inside the world of modern psychedelic medicine. At ketamine-assisted therapy clinics, we are hearing about patients describing encounters with deceased loved ones. For their potential to open access to the transcendent, psilocybin-assisted therapies are being utilized to ease existential distress at the end of life. Western-trained physicians are finding themselves transformed by experiences that do not fit neatly into clinical language.

These experiences are not marginal. They are showing up at the center of care, and they raise a question that our culture has tried to postpone: what happens when evidence-based science guides us back to meaning, mystery, and spirituality?

It appears that modern medicine cannot simply dismiss the ever present immaterial. We are currently living through what feels like a convergence point. Psychedelic treatments are reentering mainstream medical contexts, in large part, to address our worsening modern problems, driven by increased strain on psychological, social, and ecological systems. Anxiety, depression, loneliness, and burnout are no longer fringe conditions; they are structural. As these problems intensify, it is becoming harder to maintain and defend proposed boundaries between science and spirituality.

One framework that has helped me think about this modern convergence comes from the Indigenous Prophecy of the Eagle and the Condor, shared in various forms across the Americas. In one version from Peru, the Eagle represents the path of the mind: intellect, technology, and materialism. The Condor represents the path of the heart: relationship, intuition, and spirituality. The ancient Peruvians foretold of a time when humanity would face a particularly difficult period, marked by imbalance in both the outer world and our inner lives. According to the prophecy, to make it through this period, the Eagle and the Condor would need to learn how to fly together. Science and spirituality, and their respective paths, would have to learn how to soar together.

This prophecy can serve as a metaphor. One that resonates powerfully with our current predicament. For centuries, Western culture has privileged the Eagle. We have built extraordinary technologies and refined scientific methods. But in the process, we have marginalized the Condor, treating spirituality and inner life as subjective, secondary, or irrelevant to health. Psychedelic medicine is now exposing the limits of this orientation.

If science and spirituality are going to coexist meaningfully in this new era, the relationship between them will have to mature. “I’m right and you’re wrong” is no longer a workable posture, especially given the stakes. The past three decades have guided us into this developing convergence. We have seen the steady reemergence of psychedelic clinical research, beginning in the 1990s, and accelerating into what some have called a psychedelic renaissance. During this same distinctive period, we have witnessed the rise of the internet, mobile computing, advances in physics and cosmology, and our first real encounters with artificial intelligence. Our tools continue to become increasingly powerful just as our collective sense of meaning slips through the cracks.

We are now halfway through what Rick Doblin has called the Psychedelic Twenties. MDMA-assisted therapy has been approved for limited medical use in Australia. Psilocybin services have been authorized in multiple U.S. states. Ketamine clinics with a psychedelic orientation are becoming increasingly common. Alongside these developments, clinicians are confronting experiences that their training did not prepare them to interpret. Patients are not only reporting symptom relief; they are reporting encounters with purpose, forgiveness, grief, and connection. These are not side effects. This is central to how these therapies work.

My own path has unfolded across this same terrain. As a teenager, in the 1990s, I survived a near-death experience that fundamentally altered my understanding of reality. I later trained in Western medicine, learning to diagnose, categorize, and treat illness through established biomedical frameworks. Despite my allopathic medical education, that early mystical experience never completely washed away. Eventually, it led me to pursue traditional education in the Peruvian Amazon, where healing is understood as inseparable from our relationship to nature, community, and spirit. Later still, in the 2020s, I found similar healing through work with a psychedelic psychotherapist back in Arizona.

These experiences are data points from a life lived at the intersection of worlds we too often insist must remain separate. They are also the ground from which my book, Medicine Song, emerged. The book weaves together these personal stories not to argue against science, but to suggest that science alone is not enough. The Eagle and the Condor must soar together. Deep healing often involves a reorientation toward meaning, belonging, and the sacred.

We are living through a period of great upheaval that demands re-harmonization, both within ourselves and in the systems we inhabit. Psychedelic medicines, spiritual practice, and sacred plant traditions (utilized responsibly and in reverence) can catalyze vital emotional and existential healing. As this healing unfolds, it frequently brings with it a spiritual awakening: not necessarily belief-based, but relational, connective, and orienting.

The question before us is not whether spirituality belongs in psychedelic medicine. Patients are already answering that question with their experiences. The real question is whether our medical and cultural institutions are willing to meet reality where it is, rather than where we once hoped it would remain. If the Eagle and the Condor are to fly together, neither can dominate, and neither can be dismissed. Our future health, individually and collectively, may depend on our willingness to let both paths inform what healing truly means.

December 27, 2025June 11, 2026

Chronic Pain, Illicit Markets, and a Preventable Pipeline to Addiction

Chronic pain is one of the most common and least discussed entry points into substance-related harm in the United States. Long before heroin or illicitly manufactured fentanyl appear in a person’s life, many people are simply trying to endure severe, persistent physical pain. Opioids have long been central to that effort. They are not a mistake. They remain indispensable in surgery, cancer care, trauma medicine, and some forms of chronic pain management.

The problem is not opioids themselves. The problem is how pain is managed, regulated, and constrained in the United States today.

I write in part from personal experience. I lived with chronic pain for many years, from my early 20s through most of my 30s. I also write from years of study and work in this field.

For many people living with chronic pain, long-term opioid therapy initially provides stability, functionality, and the ability to work, care for family, and participate in daily life. Over time, stigma, regulatory pressure, and fragmented care can erode that stability. Patients on chronic opioid therapy are increasingly viewed through a lens of suspicion and liability rather than continuity of care. Prescriptions may be tapered or discontinued abruptly. This is improving in some places, but clinicians still fear legal and professional consequences, and patients fear being labeled, abandoned, or criminalized. This is often where risk meaningfully increases. The evidence bears this out: a 2021 JAMA study found that patients on stable, long-term opioid therapy who were tapered had a 68% increase in overdose events and roughly twice the rate of mental health crises compared with patients who were not tapered, with the greatest risk among those facing faster reductions and higher starting doses. A 2022 follow-up found the elevated risk persisted up to two years after the taper began.

When people lose access to prescribed opioids, most do not immediately turn to heroin or fentanyl. Many first seek illicitly obtained pharmaceutical opioids: OxyContin and similar medications made by pharmaceutical companies but sold outside the medical system. These substances feel familiar and, relative to non-clinical drugs, safer. The limiting factor is cost. Illicit pharmaceutical opioids are expensive, and maintaining a supply can quickly become financially unsustainable.

As pain persists, tolerance increases, and access to consistent medical care diminishes, economic pressure intensifies. Cheaper alternatives become more attractive. Heroin and illicitly manufactured fentanyl are far less expensive and far more potent. They are also far more dangerous in this illicit context. This transition is rarely driven by recklessness or a desire to “get high.” It is more often driven by price, access, desperation, and untreated pain. It is one of the clearest and most preventable pathways from chronic pain into high-risk opioid use and overdose.

These dynamics did not emerge in isolation. They are a predictable consequence of prohibition-based drug policy and aggressive criminalization of drug supply. In such systems, people managing pain are forced to navigate unstable and increasingly lethal markets rather than receiving long-term, adaptive care. Potency, unpredictability, and contamination become structural features of supply rather than exceptions.

Precision matters here. Opioids are not inherently the problem. Fentanyl is one of the most effective analgesics ever developed and remains indispensable in regulated medical settings. Risk escalates when people are pushed out of supervised care and into illicit supply chains that reward potency over safety.

What remains largely absent is a middle path: a pain-care model that treats opioids as valuable but incomplete tools, and that offers additional ways to reduce suffering without forcing patients into all-or-nothing choices.

This is where psychedelics warrant careful, serious consideration. Not as a fix for the overdose crisis, and not for everyone in pain. The evidence so far is narrow, and it is worth being precise about what it actually covers.

Psychedelics and Chronic Pain: What the Evidence Shows

The published work on psychedelics and chronic pain is still small: a handful of mechanistic reviews and individual case reports, with no large randomized controlled trials completed to date. Within those limits, certain psychedelics may influence pain intensity, pain perception, and functional outcomes when used carefully alongside adjunctive therapies. The proposed mechanisms are distinct from opioids and include modulation of central sensitization, emotional processing, inflammation, and the maladaptive fear-pain feedback loops that can entrench chronic pain.

A review by Castellanos et al. describes how classic psychedelics act primarily through serotonin 5-HT2A receptor agonism, initiating downstream processes associated with neuroplasticity, altered functional connectivity, and anti-inflammatory signaling. Chronic pain conditions, particularly centralized pain syndromes, are increasingly understood as disorders of maladaptive neural circuitry rather than purely peripheral injury. Psychedelics may temporarily destabilize rigid brain networks, allowing reorganization toward less pain-dominant patterns.

The review identifies conditions such as complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS), phantom limb pain, and other centralized pain syndromes as candidates for investigation. The biological rationale is coherent and consistent with contemporary pain neuroscience, but it remains a rationale, not a result.

Case-Level Signals

A few published case reports illustrate what an integrated, non-opioid-centered pain-care model might look like.

In one documented case, an individual experienced severe phantom limb pain following amputation, a condition closely linked to cortical reorganization and central sensitization. After a structured program involving psilocybin alongside adjunctive therapies, pain intensity decreased substantially and remained lower over time. Similar outcomes have been reported combining psilocybin with mirror therapy for phantom limb pain.

In another case, a person lived with refractory complex regional pain syndrome for more than a decade, with pain consistently rated at extreme levels. Despite aggressive conventional treatment, including high-dose ketamine infusions, functional improvement was limited. Following a structured course involving psilocybin and adjunctive therapies, the individual reported meaningful reductions in pain and regained previously lost functions, including driving and fine motor control. These outcomes align with a 2024 case report describing substantial functional improvement in refractory CRPS following psilocybin use. Hear directly from the patient on the Psychedelics Today podcast.

These are signals, not proof. They suggest existing pain-care paradigms may be incomplete and that additional tools deserve rigorous study. They do not establish that psychedelics work for chronic pain at scale, and they say nothing yet about the much larger population caught in the opioid pipeline described above.

That gap is the point. Even if psychedelics eventually help a subset of patients with centralized pain, the people most exposed to overdose are not waiting on a new molecule. They are waiting on a system that does not push them off prescribed medication and into a contaminated illicit supply. The case for studying psychedelics seriously and the case for fixing pain care are related but separate, and conflating them helps no one.

One caveat worth keeping in view: this research is early and concentrated among a small, overlapping group of clinicians and advocates, several of whom are affiliated with the organizations now advancing the work.

This work is being advanced by organizations such as the Psychedelics & Pain Association, which supports interdisciplinary collaboration, research coordination, and responsible evidence-building around psychedelic approaches to pain. The goal is not to replace opioids or to romanticize psychedelics. It is to expand the clinical toolkit with rigor, ethics, and care.

The current system pushes people in pain toward the most dangerous drug supply available, then treats the result as a failure of character rather than policy. Any serious alternative has to start there. Psychedelics may turn out to be one piece of that alternative. Right now they are a research question worth funding, not an answer worth selling.

Donate to Psychedelics and Pain Association and join our newsletter here. The author is a founding board member of Psychedelics and Pain Association.

December 2, 2025December 20, 2025

Logan Davidson – American Ibogaine, State Strategy, and the Future of Psychedelic Policy

Logan Davidson joins the show to talk about the fast-moving world of Ibogaine in American and why state-based leadership is shaping the future of psychedelic reform. Davidson is the executive director of Texans for Greater Mental Health, the legislative director at VETS, and a key strategist behind Texas’ landmark interest in ibogaine research. He also advises for Americans for Ibogaine. His work sits at the intersection of science, policy, and lived experience, and this conversation offers a clear look into what is happening right now.

Early Themes: The Rise of State Advocacy

Davidson explains how he entered politics at nineteen and how his professional path merged with psychedelic policy work during the 2021 Texas legislative session. Through that first bill, he saw how science, bipartisan cooperation, and strong local leadership could advance major reform.

Early discussion focuses on:

How Texas became the first state to pass a major psychedelic research bill
Why ibogaine became a central focus
How the special operations community helped shift political momentum
The personal mental health stories that shaped Davidson’s commitment

This section also highlights how Americans for Ibogaine entered the conversation through veterans, researchers, and state lawmakers who felt the urgency of the opioid crisis and traumatic brain injury.

Core Insights: Ibogaine, Risk, and the New Research Model

In the middle portion of the episode, Davidson breaks down the strategy, challenges, and promise behind ibogaine research and state-based policy innovation.

Key insights include:

The unique bipartisan environment in Texas
Why stories from veterans and spouses moved lawmakers
The importance of medical screening for cardiac risk
Why research is essential for safety
How states can use funding, revenue sharing, and public health goals to shape future access

What policymakers are watching right now

Effectiveness for opioid use disorder
Data from traumatic brain injury studies
Cardiac safety protocols
The risk of untreated depression and addiction
The national security implications of forcing service members to seek illegal care

Davidson also explains why removing the psychedelic experience from the molecule remains controversial and why many researchers believe the full experience matters.

Later Discussion and Takeaways: The Road Ahead for American Ibogaine

In the final part of the conversation, Davidson speaks about the future of American Ibogaine and the broader psychedelic field. He outlines why local leadership matters, why federal funding, like what Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is supporting, could be the next major tipping point, and how big pharmaceutical companies may eventually enter the space through acquisitions or proprietary molecule development.

Concrete takeaways include:

States should expect clear benefits: lower-cost treatments, shared revenue, and local control
Community leaders, not outsiders, often drive legislative wins
The need for long-term safety data remains
National security concerns highlight why regulated access must expand
Federal research money could radically transform the pace and scale of studies

He also encourages listeners to join or build local organizations, since nearly every major win comes from people who live in the state pushing from the ground up.

Frequently Asked Questions

Is Ibogaine safe?

Ibogaine has cardiac risks that require medical screening and careful monitoring. Researchers stress that safety improves with proper protocols and more clinical data.

Why is Ibogaine important for veterans?

Many special operations veterans report major benefits for traumatic brain injury, PTSD, and addiction. Their stories have driven political momentum.

How are states involved in Ibogaine research?

States like Texas are funding clinical trials, drug development, shaping policy, and exploring revenue and access models to support long-term public health benefits.

Will Ibogaine become federally supported in America?

New federal interest, including major grants and bipartisan discussions, suggests that broader support may be coming in the next few years.

Closing Thoughts

This episode shows why the work of Logan Davidson sits at the center of today’s psychedelic resurgence. It highlights a complex but hopeful moment where science, policy, and lived experience are beginning to align. As American Ibogaine research expands, state leaders, clinicians, veterans, and advocates all have a role in shaping a safer and more effective future for these treatments.

Transcript

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] All right, here we are everybody. Thanks for tuning back into psychedelics today. Today I’m joined by Logan Davidson from Texans for Greater Mental Health and a few other projects. Logan, how you doing today? I’m doing well, Joe. How are you doing man? Lovely, lovely. So, um, we just had the chance to meet in person at the recent, um, I BGA Summit, I’ll call it for short, in Aspen.

Joe Moore: Um, and that was lovely, but we had a chance to connect online a few times before, which is great. Um, big fan of your works and thanks. Thanks for joining us today.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was great to finally meet you in person. I’m a big fan of your work as well and, uh, you know, it’s, it’s been fun before and after the Aspen meeting, listening to all the different names that we’ve all given at the Aspen Summit.

Logan Davidson: Aspen. I began meeting 2.0, uh, what’s the title? I think technically it was Aspen. I began meeting 2.0. Aim 2.0 is, uh, is what I saw around a lot, but also maybe that’s a OL Instant Messenger 2.0 and we’re gonna reenter [00:01:00] the nineties. You know,

Joe Moore: uh, there’s ways in which that was more pleasant, but who knows? I dunno if I can go backwards.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I know. So, um, excited to have you here and before we really kind of dig into you as an individual, can you give us a high level of, of, um, the. Groups and projects you’re working on right now, and then we’ll kinda like dig into you as an individual.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, absolutely. So I’m the executive director of Texans for Greater Mental Health.

Logan Davidson: We’re obviously a, a Texas-based, Texas focused education and engagement and advocacy organization, which just means that we wake up every day and figure out how to advance psychedelic medicines in Texas with a science led research first approach, which aligns really well to the, the, the psychedelic political climate in the state of Texas.

Logan Davidson: I’m also the legislative director for Vets Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, Marcus and Amber Capone’s organization where I get to work in concert with my colleague Khe Kja, um, on all things policy and advocacy. I do a lot of state work, [00:02:00] um, and have been really fortunate to get to work in North Carolina with Gina Georgio in the North Carolina Psychedelic Policy Coalition, Hawaii, the Clarity Project with Ashley Lukins.

Logan Davidson: Um, uh, I’m through vets involved in launching Valor, the Veterans Alliance for Leadership Outreach and Recovery, which is a project founded by Vets, Navy Seal Foundation, green Beret Foundation, and Wounded Warrior Project focused on federal advocacy. And then I serve in, uh, you know, an amorphous, uh, someday to be determined advisory role with Americans for Ibogaine, bringing the wisdom and lessons that we learned in Texas forward for them to use in in other states and across the country.

Joe Moore: Right on. One of the, one of the fun things I kept hearing in Aspen was, how do we get our own Logan? I gotta think that’s funny. But I also, for you, but I, I also have to think like, oh my God, my heart’s gonna explode ’cause I’m, you know, not getting enough rest. ’cause I’m doing so much and it’s not just, you know, you working in Texas, you’re working all over the place.

Joe Moore: Right. So it’s, um, [00:03:00] yeah, it’s gotta be exhausting. So, to get into that point, how did you, how did you get here? How did I begin? Inter psychedelics come into your radar is something you wanted to work on.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Um, uh, it’s funny you mentioned the Harken explode thing. I’m, I’m very ready for the holiday. Um, but it is, you know, if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life.

Logan Davidson: Um, and I, and I do love what I do, and I, and I don’t think it has felt like work, uh, yet. Although, you know, someone, something’s gonna happen in the next year to challenge that theory, I’m sure. Um, I got into this, I started my career in, in politics and especially legislative politics, uh, when I was 19 years old, um, in 2014 working.

Logan Davidson: Interning in local congressional offices and then working on my first campaign for a member of the Texas House, and then fell in love with that and just basically committed my entire life to, to politics and, uh, legislative service, both at the state and federal level while that was happening. You know, obviously, uh, like a ton of other people, I had my own mental health struggles, major depressive disorder and, [00:04:00] and suicidal agent was just a feature of my life for a really long time.

Logan Davidson: And then when I was in college, I came to learn a little bit more about psychedelics, um, the way that they can help with that, especially, uh, the way that they could help veterans with PTSD and other conditions. My brother deployed to Africa when he was in the Army, um, serving in a civil affairs team. And so that was very personal to me.

Logan Davidson: And so I had kind of these dual tracks and it really was, you know, my career. And then I, I was deeply interested in psychedelics and especially psychedelic medicine. Learned about the research happening at Hopkins, um, and never really thought that these two things were gonna cross into one kind of, you know, mission path.

Logan Davidson: But in 2021, I went to work for state representative Alex Dominguez, um, who it, you know. If you’ve ever seen Charlie Wilson’s war, there’s this phenomenon where this congressman who you know, is of no relative importance, I think is what they say in the movie trailer, but he happens to sit on every single important committee to get what he was doing done.

Logan Davidson: And that was Alex. He was on the appropriations committee. He was on one of the calendars committee. He was a vice chair, he was a leadership, he was [00:05:00] a former prosecutor, um, who himself had been really interested in this. He had two siblings, um, who served. And uh, he decided to file a bill to see if we could start a conversation on psychedelics.

Logan Davidson: And that was HB 1802, which went on to be the first psychedelic research legislation passed in the country. Um, almost first piece of psychedelic reform legislation passed in the country. But Connecticut beat us by, by just a little bit and huge credit to Jesse McLaughlin for getting that done. Um, but so we passed that bill and that was the most important thing I’d ever done in my life up to that point.

Logan Davidson: And I knew that, you know, even while we were doing it, we all knew this was the biggest thing we were potentially ever gonna work on. You could spend 80 years and never work on anything that’s gonna be as significant as. And then about a year and a half later, I was recruited to, to come work at Texan or Greater Mental Health by the founder Eric Cosar, uh, who also brought Alex onto the board.

Logan Davidson: Um, he brought Lynette Avril, the researcher from Baylor College of Medicine, um, who, who was leading the 1802 trial and was our subject matter expert onto the advisory board. And the theory was. If there was a team that got this done in [00:06:00] Texas, so let’s try to get as many people on that team back together and go keep on doing it.

Logan Davidson: And um, that was, uh, almost three years ago, uh, to the day pretty close that I had that first conversation with Eric. And it’s been a whirlwind ever since. Joined the vets team after that, got to work in a bunch of other states. Um, and yeah, it’s, it’s a really amazing thing to get, to be able to work on your passion, um, to feel like you’re doing good in the world and, and helping people, which is nice.

Logan Davidson: Not always something you get working in politics and especially in a state legislature. Um, and that I get to, you know, it’s an emerging space for the most part, especially from my side of the world and the, and the political legislative world. You don’t really get to do anything new. The, the boundaries already exist and you’re just playing within this, this field.

Logan Davidson: But with psychedelic medicine and psychedelics broadly, you’re essentially, you know, paving your own road. You’re, you’re planting the sod of your own green, green field. So it’s a really exciting place to work.

Joe Moore: Yeah. It’s not at all like, um. A lot of other traditional fields where there’s a hundred plus [00:07:00] years of history.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah, we’re dealing, well we have a lot of history here, but Right. Yeah. Yeah. We have a lot of like new ground in terms of legislation and ways in which we could see this play out and we can have a lot of impacts here, um, for good and bad. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think one of the better things we all have going for us here is that we all care that this is done well and Right.

Joe Moore: And, um, while we might not agree on particular, sometimes we’re all working towards what we think is the right thing, which, you know, what could be better than that? That’s right.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The common cause is great and uh, it is always one of the things I really enjoy about some of the conferences and summits we get to go to, um, Aspen didn’t account as much because everybody was so iboga focused, but you’ll get someone who’s ardently decrim and opposes medicalization and someone who’s ardently opposed to decrim and only wants medicalization.

Logan Davidson: And you’ll just see them off in the corner, you know, excitedly talking to each other about how they’re wrong and you’re wrong. And here’s my vision for it. And I [00:08:00] think, I think the right answer and where great things come is from, from the middle of that tension. You know, you gotta have the two opposing viewpoints.

Logan Davidson: You gotta have the whole spectrum. Get everybody together, have some conversations, and figure out what the best path forward is. And that’s also like our philosophy for state advocacy. Every state’s gonna do what’s right for that state, and then the federal government gets to look and pick and choose what they think worked best and, and ditch what they think didn’t work.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s fascinating. So, um. Was there a particular angle on the Ibogaine story that made it seem like a really compelling substance to be working on?

Logan Davidson: Um, yeah. I mean the, the relationship, the special operations community has to ibogaine. So, um, that Sila seven bill we passed in 2021. You know, Marcus Capone was one of our key witnesses.

Logan Davidson: Morgan Latrell was a key witness for us. They all were essentially telling the story of Ibogaine. You know, we never, if you, if you go listen to their testimony, none of them ever say it was psilocybin. It was [00:09:00] iboga, it was just, it was psychedelic assisted therapy. But even then, all those years ago, I knew this was headed towards iga, whether it’s four years or 40 years.

Logan Davidson: The psychedelic space is gonna get to Ibogaine, and it’s an incredibly powerful medicine, obviously. Um, the impact on the brain is incredible, especially traumatic brain injury, it’s ability to resolve opioid withdrawal syndrome. And so it’s, it’s powerful. The stories are incredibly compelling, but really I think the thing that made it most compelling to legislators and then, and then obviously made it the vehicle for which I would do a lot of work as the relationship the special operations community has to it.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. I guess let’s characterize the substance for a little bit. So it comes from Africa, generally speaking. Right? We’ve actually found Iboga in some South American plants. I’m sure you’ve kind of heard rumor of that here and there. Mm-hmm. Which is, which is interesting. Um, you know, Pangaea and all, but I think, yeah, exactly.[00:10:00]

Joe Moore: I think there’s some interesting conversations to be had around, like, where does it come from? How do we, how do we become fair, um, to the people that had this before? And what I loved about the Aspen meeting was that the, um, blessings of the forest crew was there. Um, and they’re kind of a group that’s really helping get some sort of reciprocity.

Joe Moore: And you and Brian really insisted that you’re gonna work really hard to make that happen. Can you speak about that a little bit?

Logan Davidson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It, um, you know, as, as we said in. Aspen. Um, no one has the right answer on that on that point yet. There’s a couple of layers to it, right. Just thinking about like the Texas project, um, setting aside Texas’s politics for a second, which definitely played a role in how that bill came into being, but it’s, it’s FDA approved clinical research, FD approved DEA license clinical research, which to date, broadly speaking, is synthetic only.

Logan Davidson: Right? There’s some exceptions. You have Dr. Sicily, um, who successfully sued the DEA. There’s like some limited exceptions, but the general rule, if you’re doing clinical research, it’s gotta be synthetic. So there is an [00:11:00] inherent incompatibility between the way these medicines work and the way that both like our community in the United States and the international psychedelic community kind of interact with these medicines in this world in the way that like our medical system can fit it.

Logan Davidson: So there’s an ongoing. Process, uh, you know, and I, I only just kind of dipped my toes in at the federal level, but from advocates who are trying to change the FDA’s attitude on that at least creates some sort of exception where you are allowed to do natural or semi naturally derived, um, nonsynthetic substances.

Logan Davidson: Uh, so that’s one track. I think the big key is not only reciprocity though, um, and making sure that we honor where it comes from and that, you know, uh, we try to try to not be exploitative the way that that folks have been for so many generations and centuries, but also to tap into the wisdom, right? Uh, Joseph Parlia, I think, speaks really, really well on this.

Logan Davidson: Um, but it’s, you know, you’ve got some western medical practitioners who are gonna come in and this is gonna be their very first experience with Iboga or a substance [00:12:00] like this. And they’re gonna try to identify the best practices and codify those and publish them. And Aetna will provide reimbursement for that and everything.

Logan Davidson: And then you have folks in Gabon. Who have been working with this medicine for centuries, generations who have a deep inherent wisdom, who understand how it works. They may not understand how it works in the terms of, you know, biological chemistry or anything like that, but they can explain it from a spiritual perspective.

Logan Davidson: And also I think from a practical perspective. So part of it is obviously the reciprocity, right? But also, you know, within that is not only financial reciprocity, but also hopefully for, for those of us in the west, uh, you know, sort of a wisdom reciprocity and a cultural reciprocity as well.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s gonna be really fascinating and interesting to see how we can do some sort of like, um, cultural exchange there and actually learn from them.

Joe Moore: I’ve got, you know, I’ve got a lot to say on it, but let’s not do that here. Yeah. So, um, let’s see. So famously Texas put in a lot of [00:13:00] money. To this kind of, um, project to develop Ibogaine as an FDA approved drug. Can you give us a little bit of that story? Like what, what happened there?

Logan Davidson: Uh, yeah. Well, um, the, the story of Texas putting in the money, there’s a thing that happened a long time ago and then we fast forward.

Logan Davidson: So, uh, over a hundred years ago, they struck oil at Spindletop and Texas’s Wealth as a state skyrocketed. Relative to everything else. And that’s a really important factor because we were able to get what we got done in Texas because Texas was sitting on a really significant budget surplus. Um, it wasn’t opioid settlement funds, it wasn’t out of this dedicated research fund.

Logan Davidson: Texas had just, we’ve collected more money than we thought we were going to over the past few years. We had tens of billions of dollars in surplus funds. So coming and asking for the appropriation was really interesting. ’cause at no point in the process did anybody say, we can’t afford this. There were plenty of people who said, you can’t have lots of money to research your, your African psychedelic, you know, what are you talking about?

Logan Davidson: But no one [00:14:00] said, oh, we can’t afford this. And that’s a stark contrast to some other states that are supportive of psychedelics that don’t have the same budgetary position that we do. So that’s an important kind of fact and a factor in what played out. Um, the, the story of the Texas IGA initiative is actually quite an efficient story.

Logan Davidson: Um, it all started last summer. Um, governor Perry and a few other people engaged Brian in a conversation said, you’ve been working on, I began in a bunch of other states, we think there’s an opportunity in Texas to do something big. We think this, this should be the big thing that we do. Do you want to come do this?

Logan Davidson: Um, that’s when Brian and I connected late summer in the early fall. There was one big in-person team meeting in October, uh, and then it was off to the races and you had this big. Coalition that ebbed and flowed and grew over time. Um, uh, you know, you had the Rogan podcast, we got the bill filed. Like all of these things kind of come together.

Logan Davidson: And then another important thing is Texas is in legislative session every, every odd number of year for 140 days. So, you know, the [00:15:00] conversation started last summer, 12 months basically from when that conversation started. We were gonna be at a time. Working on this. And so it was a really rapid, you know, bringing together of folks.

Logan Davidson: You know, Lynette Avril was back involved, uh, who helped pass HB 1802, the V-M-H-L-C was at the table. Um, Brian obviously was leading, uh, pretty significantly. He and Rick Perry did the famous Joe Rogan podcast. Um, vets came to the table at the very beginning of this year, um, and really supercharged the effort and took, um, advocacy lead.

Logan Davidson: And, and I will say I am biased. I work with them, but even before I, I worked for vets, I was a strong believer that when, when vets is at the tip of the spear, um, you generally see advocacy success. You’ve seen it twice in California and then, and then obviously twice in Texas. Um, and so we decided to do it and then it became about finding the right author and representative Cody Harris, who filed HB 37 17, uh, was the right author.

Logan Davidson: Not only was he a powerful member of the house, great relationships across the conservative movement, credibility with [00:16:00] the minority party. Um, he also. Knew about Iboga before that Joe Rogan episode. He had heard about it on Sean Ryan. Um, he has some family members with neurodegenerative conditions and that was where his real personal interest came from.

Logan Davidson: He was aware of the veteran stories and found them to be incredibly compelling and that we should make this treatment available for those folks that shouldn’t have to leave the country. He learned more about its ability to treat addiction, but he also brought his own personal passion for this. Um, and we then got Senator Tan Parker, um, who actually I mentioned that first political job back in 2014.

Logan Davidson: I was working for then Representative Tan Parker. Um, and he’s a prominent conservative in the Senate now, the chairman of the House Republican Caucus. So you had the, the right guys to get this done. Um, and that’s, we started from there. And then ran the most aggressive, most efficient, time constrained, stressful legislative campaign I’ve ever been a part of.

Logan Davidson: Um, I think Brian and I got very close for how many times we had to get on the phone to try to unravel and solve some Rubik’s cube, um, that [00:17:00] had just been thrown up at us. The number of times he called me and said, I’ve got a hot potato and I’m passing it to you. Uh, you know, I have no skin left on my hands from, from juggling hot potatoes.

Logan Davidson: Um, and then all of a sudden in May. We found out we were gonna get the $50 million. I, I knew from the beginning, oh, we’re gonna pass this thing, the legislature’s ready, folks are gonna support this, but how much money is it gonna be? Um, and, and someday, if you haven’t yet, I hope you have Brian on the podcast.

Logan Davidson: And he can tell you that I was encouraging him in January. You know, we should be willing to take 1 million, we should be willing to take 1000 and come back and get more money later, but let’s get this established. And he said, no, 50 million. And then he went into a negotiation with our state leaders and he said, no, 50 million.

Logan Davidson: Uh, uh, I think, I think you maybe have heard part of the story this infamous like hour and 30 minute meeting that he went into that was supposed to last half an hour and then all of a sudden we had the 50. Um, and that was, you know, such a huge moment. I actually think that day felt like the bigger achievement than when the bill was actually signed [00:18:00] into law, because that was the thing that seemed.

Logan Davidson: Inconceivable, even though Texas had the funds, um, to go from 2.1, 2.2 million for psilocybin in 20 21, 25 x that to 50 for I bga the substance people hadn’t heard of. That’s so far back in the drug development process. Um, but that’s where, where it really came from. And I think there’s a few key things.

Logan Davidson: I’ll finish this long answer, but just a few key things that the legislature really. Latched in on one was a treatment for opioid use disorder. That was huge. Two was the stories from special operations veterans of how it helped him, whether it be Marcus Latrell, Marcus Capone, Chris Thompson, but also especially Chase Rowens, who was able to connect the story of the special operations community to the addiction community.

Logan Davidson: He was injured in a training jump. The VA prescribed him Percocets and sent him on a decade plus, you know, Odyssey with addiction that he was finally delivered from a couple of years ago by Ibogaine. And those stories were so powerful and so compelling. The data from the Stanford study was great, but it was really the stories.

Logan Davidson: And [00:19:00] then the, the final piece of the story was the spouses, Amber Capone, Becca Thompson, Kristen Grier came and told the story of what it was like to be right on the edge of losing their husband if their kids losing their fathers, and then them going away essentially for a weekend coming back and all of a sudden dad’s home again.

Logan Davidson: And what that means to the family and what it means to the community. Um, so that’s how it came together, and a little bit of how we were able to pass that bill.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I love that so much energy in action. It must have been like edgier seat often. Um,

Logan Davidson: the, the whole way through. The whole way through.

Joe Moore: Let’s take one.

Joe Moore: Yeah. That, uh, Brian telling the story on stage was really something. Um, yeah. And I, I have to say, I really appreciate the, um, kind of dynamic duo feel you two have. Mm-hmm. Like, it feels, you know, you show up with a lot and he shows up with a lot and it’s very different. You know, um, yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Uh, I appreciate that.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. I do [00:20:00] think we’re a dynamic duo. Um, the, the evidence supports it as well. But yeah, we are very different people. He’s, you know, this towering figure with that Maine of red hair and that deep Appalachian accent, and I’m, you know, a kid out of the suburbs of Dallas-Fort Worth, um, who still looks a little bit like I’m in college at times.

Logan Davidson: Um, and, uh, Brian is such an incredible storyteller and order, um, and just a real, it is hard not to be inspired and fired up every day when you’re working with Brian. Uh, ’cause every time he talks it’s the, you know, it’s, it’s the, the halftime pep talk that you’re getting in the state championship, um, and then getting sit back out onto the field.

Logan Davidson: Um, it’s a really great, really great partnership.

Joe Moore: I haven’t had him on yet to talk about this, I really want to, but there, there was this, um, moment, he was on stage with Sue Sicily at South by Southwest. Mm-hmm. And, um, Brian was kind of like laying out a lot of his history in Kentucky. Mm-hmm. And a lot of problems that were in Kentucky.

Joe Moore: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm. Um, do, do you know if he’s still developing those ideas or working on that story at all? About like, what he encountered there? Or is he just kind of head down on this other stuff? Uh,

Logan Davidson: yeah, that’s an interesting question. Um, I think he’s pretty much head down this other stuff there. Kentucky’s on the Americans for IGA list.

Logan Davidson: They’ve got, you know, supporters in the legislature. They’ve obviously got really strong community support. Um, a lot of desks got kicked up around it, back when it was the Kentucky IGA initiative. So he’s certainly still working in Kentucky. Um, still wants to bring it home. Um, I do think he’s quite busy looking at other states and, and coming outta Aspen.

Logan Davidson: There’s even more states on the agenda now. Um, but I do think he still has some, some time and attention for Kentucky.

Joe Moore: Cool. Yeah, I love hearing that. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll get with him on the more controversial aspects of that. ’cause it’s so exciting and interesting and I, I really, I really wanna see him get loud with that.

Joe Moore: Um, it’s like

Logan Davidson: one of the first [00:22:00] psychedelic advocacy political stories that has kind of real political intrigue in it, right?

Logan Davidson: Mm-hmm.

Logan Davidson: There’s act, you know, there were op-ed, there were hit pieces, put in newspapers and, you know, shadow fighting between state leaders, all with the back backdrop of a, you know, gubernatorial election.

Logan Davidson: It’s, um, it’s sort of, it’s sort of a made for TV story in a lot of ways. Oh

Joe Moore: yeah. Maybe I’ll try to buy the rights.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Oh, there you go. That’s a good idea.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, that’s funny. So. All right. Um, one of the, one of the things that, you know, gets interesting when we start talking about Ibogaine is, you know, we have so much hope for it to help with addiction, um, in, in particular interrupting opioid addiction in a, in a really unique way.

Joe Moore: And then, um, you know, other addictions too. But then, um, you know, other things like this head injury story outta Stanford that, you know, vets and I forget, maybe it was Ambio was involved there. Mm-hmm. Yep. Ambio then, um, there was then, um, [00:23:00] yeah, brain injury, A-P-T-S-D. There’s, there’s a lot of potential conditions that could be treated.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. The one thing that comes up often to say, oh, I don’t, this is never gonna happen, or like, this is gonna take a long time, is the cardiac risk and have you like, you know, medically it seems like we can handle it really well. I would say that not all of the retreats are handling it medically, super skillfully.

Joe Moore: We’re still on occasion seeing deaths. Mm-hmm. Um, you know what, like are politicians or are, are people in the development like overly concerned about the cardiac risk? Or do they feel like it’s manageable from your perspective?

Logan Davidson: Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, I would not say folks are overly concerned.

Logan Davidson: I think they’re appropriately concerned. There’s a couple of dynamics here. One, there is this kind of overarching faith in the ability of our medical system to handle this. Whether it’s creating a solution like an iboga analog like Gilgamesh has [00:24:00] worked on that removes that cardiotoxic risk. Whether it’s having, you know, the acute care and necessary to respond in the event of an an adverse event or just learning more about a delivery protocol to, to mitigate and hopefully eventually reduce to zero the risk of a cardiotoxic event.

Logan Davidson: Um, but I do think they are, you know, so there is that. I do think another piece of it is. The risk inherent in any sort of significant medical event. So from the perspective of like a mental health treatment, the idea that it’s potentially fatal is sort of alien to us. Like, oh, you’re gonna go into EMDR and something can go wrong, and all of a sudden you die.

Logan Davidson: Like that doesn’t really happen. Right? But if you think about it in the terms of, it’s similar to like a surgery, it’s actually a lower risk or a very comparable risk to that you can, you can die of a surgical complication from getting your tonsils out. Um, you know, and you have to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision, you know, in consultation with your doctor and your family, um, on what is best for you.

Logan Davidson: And I think there’s an, an attitude that I began and, and other psychedelic assisted therapies, but especially ibogaine, [00:25:00] kind of falls into the same category, that it’s not such a significant risk that it is, that it is really any more risky than a lot of the other medical treatments that are relatively common.

Logan Davidson: And then the kind of final component that I would offer is the risk of not. Doing it. So I think this was a, a big part of the conversation we had around MDMA. I think we’ve seen it around other substances. We know for sure this many people are dying of deaths, of despair, su you know, suicide, alcoholism, drug overdose.

Logan Davidson: We know this is, we know we’re here and available treatments have us right here and there’s a treatment that maybe brings us down here. But then, you know, maybe as a result of that treatment, you see suddenly an uptick of deaths in another category. What’s the, not to be really cold about it, but kind of what’s the cost benefit analysis?

Logan Davidson: And at a certain point, isn’t the current level of death unacceptable. We have to try something new. Even if there is some risk with that new treatment, is it, are more people going to die from [00:26:00] suicide as a result of not getting treatment for PTSD or traumatic brain injury or die of a drug overdose than may die as a result of this treatment?

Logan Davidson: And I, I think we haven’t, we don’t, we don’t necessarily have the data on that, but I do think just from a, a, you know, back of the napkin kind of math, you would see the overall deaths come way down if these substances were approved as a treatment. And that, I think is something that comes into play a lot for policymakers because 17 to 44 veterans die by suicide every day.

Logan Davidson: That’s a statistic that we all know used to be 17 to 22, you know, revised estimate, 17 to 44. The danger of being, uh, a decision maker, whether it’s an estate, legislature or certainly the federal legislature is you get hit with numbers like that all the time. And you can become very comfortable with that.

Logan Davidson: One in four children, you know, are food insecure. One in five children living in poverty, 17 to 44 veterans dying by suicide every day. That the idea of taking a risk to solve it becomes like somehow more stress inducing because you are [00:27:00] comfortable with this number. But for those who are not comfortable with that number, it’s basically a no-brainer that we have to do something.

Logan Davidson: This is unacceptable and, you know, uh, we must do right. And risk the consequences. And that, I think, is an attitude that they bring to the table.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s definitely important to have this conversation and, and talk about this cost benefit analysis and, and there is an aspect where it feels cold.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. There’s also an aspect where the existing treatments are garbage. And this is kind of where I exist in the psychedelic ecosystem often. It’s like, guys, yeah, there’s risk here. There’s a little bit of expense here, but that like if we’re doing cost benefit analysis, total cost analysis, and then like downstream benefits, it’s staggering.

Joe Moore: Oh yeah. Getting people back to their families, the, the integrated family life that’s possible after, you know mm-hmm. And the benefits from that versus deep addiction and harm. Yeah,

Logan Davidson: absolutely. Um, you know, Elliot Marse, I think is doing great research on that out at, out [00:28:00] at Berkeley. And, and his research has been hugely helpful in the advocacy space of kind of laying out the cost of not doing this, the cost efficiency of doing it.

Logan Davidson: And, um, you know, if you wanna, you wanna have a, a, a particularly American conversation. How about people just being able to show up to work at their full capacity? Again, the economic benefit of someone not being in the depth of depression or addiction is quantifiable and significant. And that’s one of the other like kind of exciting things you get to talk about, like when you’re thinking of the advocacy space.

Logan Davidson: We have 150 members of the Texas House, 31 members of the Texas Senate. Basically all of them are gonna make their decision a little bit differently, but they might get lumped into groups. And there are some who, it’s the data on how effective the treatment is. Some it’s the spirituality aspects, some it’s just the anecdote.

Logan Davidson: Some, it’s that the guy next to them is voting for it. And so being able to frame it in the conversation of the, the long-term impact of this is not just saving this life, but saving all the lives around them. ’cause we also don’t conceive of it really the other way. We don’t, you know, oh, [00:29:00] someone. Dies by suicide.

Logan Davidson: That’s tragic. They’re gone. How sad. But you don’t think about the fact that essentially every life immediately connected to them has been impacted. And some of them can be ruined by that reality. And so again, that comes back to the what is the risk here and what is, what is the greater risk and what is the greater cost to, to make an effective a treatment available, even with some physical risk, even with some risk that it won’t work.

Logan Davidson: You know, that’s also another piece. It’s not gonna work for everybody, but it’s gonna work for a lot more people than current treatments are. Right? I mean, these, essentially, the current treatment for opioid addiction is traditional, uh, rehab and then abstinence, which, if you’ve ever heard Brian talk about it, that’s got like an eight to 12% success rate.

Logan Davidson: You flip the script over to Iboga and you’re talking about eight to 12% is now the population that will not be successful versus the successful population. So there’s just, there’s a, there’s a lot there and a lot of really interesting angles and dynamics to that conversation.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So. The, yeah, the, [00:30:00] I wonder what the FDA thinks and how they would want to manage that.

Joe Moore: I hope there’s room for them to understand and characterize the cardiac risk better. I mm-hmm. Personally think, um, it’s under characterized the cardiac risk and as a result under like not as well understood as we should, you know, have it so that we can actually be speaking skillfully about it. I think, um.

Joe Moore: You know, there’s, there’s clearly best practices out there for, you know, how do we keep people safest. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, Baria and, and, um, Eastman have a lot to say on this, and I think, um, you know, plenty of other doctors too. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, there’s ways to do this really well. It’s tragic when we see people get hurt.

Joe Moore: But, you know, also there is this element of, and I’m, I’m not trying to do victim blaming here, but people when they often die, um, in these scenarios, they’re really, really weak from addiction. Right. You know, their heart’s really damaged, [00:31:00] and as a result, can they handle this stress? It’s not always the case.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s why the medical screening is so important, but also why the research is so important. Part of why we don’t understand it is we have not been able to, uh, essentially have not been able to research it since the passage of the Controlled Substance Act, which puts us in this perpetuating cycle of, you know, we think we, we think it’s effective.

Logan Davidson: We don’t fully understand the risks and the burden to do the research to understand those risks is so high that we’re really limited in how much we can do. And until we see FDA approval for at least one psychedelic compound, maybe that then changes the conversation on scheduling for all of them or just each one individually.

Logan Davidson: We won’t see the depth and breadth of research that we really need to fully understand how to, how to treat people whose conditions can be effectively treated with these substances.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Makes, yeah. Amazing. So, um, do you think that there’s impact on, um, how this. [00:32:00] Development’s gonna be seen in the United States, um, if certain business people aren’t operating as safely as they could be safely and as high performance, you know, wise as they could be.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, I mean, the stakes are really high, right? Um, we talk, uh, somewhat often in the space, and I, I don’t think this is unique to Ibogaine, but um, very often in the broader psychedelic advocacy space, if something goes wrong in one of these clinical trials and even an international retreat, if it’s a particularly prominent person, if, if the treatment isn’t effective enough, anything like that can take all of the momentum that we have and send it back the opposite direction.

Logan Davidson: Right. So that’s certainly a, a concern. And so making sure that it’s done safely and effectively is so important. I think, you know, you mentioned business, which is a, I think, an apt thing to mention because a lot of times, and it’s, it’s not a criticism, it’s an observation. Business will cut corners. They wanna move as quickly as they can.

Logan Davidson: They wanna reduce costs, they wanna make it, you know, they, they’re, they’re serving their bottom line [00:33:00] shareholders, a particular end goal that isn’t necessarily the treatment and betterment of their patient. That’s not all businesses, right? That’s some of them. And so making sure that how this goes out, especially in the early years of this ibogaine drug development movement, the IBO verse as Brian dubbed it, uh, is absolutely critical because the potential consequences of something going wrong in any, any capacity in this, um, are, are, uh.

Logan Davidson: Cannot be understated. We cannot be overstated. The risk cannot be overstated.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I, the late Great Nolan Williams had some really great lines about the promise of this molecule because it, it, he described it really well as a sort of very strange molecule. Mm-hmm. Very alien from what we are used to in terms of pharmacology in humans.

Joe Moore: And he, he kind of put it as kind of a, a gen two, gen three kind of psychedelic. And I think it goes beyond that. Um, [00:34:00] in a lot of ways. I, you know, I think there’s so much potential here are beyond addiction mm-hmm. And beyond, you know, p ts d Are you, are you hearing, uh, about any kind of like promising futures, um, with people kind of modifying the molecule?

Joe Moore: I know let’s, you know, not get too into Gilgamesh ’cause they’re, you know, made it shorter, made it maybe a little safer, but you know Right. That’s beyond that, beyond that kind of frontier.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, you know, innovation is, is at the core of like, so much of what we do in the medical field, especially in the United States, but everywhere.

Logan Davidson: Um, it also, I think, would be naive not to note that innovation offers businesses like unique edges over one another. If you have a proprietary molecule, you can patent that molecule, take it to market, have maybe like a better profit, um, space than, than one who doesn’t have a proprietary molecule. The things that I’ve heard about, and I think you’ve heard of this too, and we’re talking about it with LSD and with psilocybin and with Igan and all of ’em, is removing the [00:35:00] trip.

Logan Davidson: We’ve had a lot of people talk about, you know, can you replicate the benefits without the psychedelic experience? Um, I think that’s a, that’s a totally understandable and, and correct. Conversation to have. I’m not a, a scientific expert, medical expert, mental health expert. I’m an expert in essentially nothing except the state legislative committee process.

Logan Davidson: Um, but certainly it seems a lot of the researchers, the folks who are smarter than me think you can’t really separate the trip that there is, that these two things have to work together, the physiological and the spiritual. But that I think, is a debate that we’re gonna continue to see play out for years and maybe forever, because I also think, you know, a little bit, let the market decide.

Logan Davidson: Let patients decide what they need, let people decide, but make it all available in a safe, therapeutic regulated way that you know what’s in it and you know what you’re getting. One of the other things that I’ve heard. Yeah, shortening it obviously is key to a lot of people, but then and neurodegenerative conditions come to mind as people think about Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s related to Ibogaine or think about the opioid use disorder [00:36:00] related to Iboga is either, if we better understand the molecule, can you tinker with it to create a version of ibo.

Logan Davidson: That is actually more effective for those neurodegenerative conditions versus an addiction issue and vice versa. Um, and really all conditions and that you can take this one thing that works pretty well for everything and then modify it a little bit and make it work really well for these specific things.

Logan Davidson: But part of it is we don’t understand it. I don’t wanna say at all. That would be, I think, a disservice to Nolan and Goul and, um, Dolly and everyone involved in IGA research. But there’s so much of it that we don’t understand, and you get into conditions that we are aware people are going to international treatments, that international retreats to, to receive treatment on Parkinson’s is a good example, but you don’t have the Stanford Parkinson’s trial.

Logan Davidson: You have the Stanford IGAN trial dealing with special operations veterans. So until we get that research and better understand how it works, we won’t really know the, the scope of our ability to tinker with the molecule and develop different compounds to treat different [00:37:00] conditions. But those are the things I’m hearing.

Logan Davidson: And the last one is what I think is really exciting, the idea that you can kind of optimize the molecule for a specific condition.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Do you know, um, who some of the leaders thinking about Ibogaine and Parkinson’s are on the research side? Offhand?

Logan Davidson: Uh, no, not offhand. Um, mm-hmm. I’ll be honest, I, I’ve been so focused on the, the T-B-I-P-T-S-D piece mm-hmm. For years. Um, you know, OUD just got in, um, someone who I know who I have heard speak, you know, very intelligently and effectively on it, who I think just given the depth and breadth of her existing research would be a natural person to, to lead in that space is Goul Dolan.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Um, you know, I’ve, I’ve been at two different summit conference type things where I’ve heard her speak on it, and both times there’s been a question on the neurodegenerative piece. Um, but other than that, no. I’m not sure who, who’s leading.

Joe Moore: Right on. Yeah, I’ll check in with Cool on that. It’s, um, always an interesting topic to me ’cause I so many people are suffering, [00:38:00] um, yeah.

Joe Moore: From so many different conditions, but neurodegenerative stuff, just so, uh, gutting.

Logan Davidson: So gutting and I think like terrifying to a lot of people. ’cause once it starts it’s, you know, there’s no stopping it. Mm-hmm. I will say, just as like a little anecdote, we did, uh, this ibogaine kind of educational event in San Antonio a couple of weeks ago as we’re kind of spreading the news across Texas that, you know, we’re, we’re leading on this issue.

Logan Davidson: And there’s a gentleman who came, he had come to an event with us in Austin and he came to San Antonio and spoke who was a Parkinson’s patient. And Iboga essentially gave him the ability to walk again. Just an incredibly powerful story. He had a slightly different treatment model than what we’re seeing, uh, like ambio for the veteran population for example.

Logan Davidson: But, um, it was great to have someone come and tell that story and I think offer that new ray of hope in this whole space.

Joe Moore: One person, uh. Stood up in Aspen and, and made a really interesting point. And I thought it was really, really useful given kind of the hype cycle that can exist around this stuff.[00:39:00]

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And, you know, um, this stuff still requires a lot of support, you know? Yeah. It’s not, it’s not a one shot, you know, two day treatment. Right. It, it, it could for opioid use disorder or other addictions be part of a couple weeks or month mm-hmm. Process. Right. You know, which makes it look a little bit more like a traditional rehab with an expensive drug intervention.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But Brian talks a lot about how the, um, traditional, uh, rehab is, is a, you know, we’re kind of chasing good money after bad in a lot of ways because the performance just seems really low there. But this would actually, you know, based on our speculations, perform really well. Can you talk about like, you know, this, this kind of like, uh, hype cycle that might want to remove this need for.

Joe Moore: Additional psychological support services around this treatment. Yeah, yeah,

Logan Davidson: yeah. I mean, and we, yeah, let’s focus in on iboga, but also it exists like with all of these [00:40:00] molecules, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I think one. Part of it is this, I, I, I think it is human. I think it is also, especially American. And I, and I say that as a very, you know, very proud American and proud Texan, but this like, one and done, here’s the fix.

Logan Davidson: You have a headache, here’s an Advil, you’re done, you know, you have this condition, here’s the treatment. You’re done. Um, we, you know, e even, you know, you think about, I don’t know about you. I played rugby in college. How many of my friends got surgery and then skipped, skipped the physical therapy component so they could get back on the field and play again.

Logan Davidson: And I think that is like a perfect, at least close to perfect analogy for the way this works is IGA is like having surgery on your knee or your shoulder. And if you don’t go do the physical therapy after, and if you also don’t do the prep before the surgery, you’re just gonna get hurt again and maybe have a, have a catastrophic injury compared to what you’re.

Logan Davidson: Prior injury was. Um, but I think, I think there is this desire for it to be really simple and you go do this over the weekend and you’re all, you’re all better. Um, I also think [00:41:00] there’s a cost thought to it. How do you make it more accessible? Well, let’s just window it down to the smallest, you know, the most minimal possible delivery of care we can.

Logan Davidson: And then that’s the, the floor. And if you want anything above that, it’s extra instead of standardizing the necessary treatment that goes around it, which also I think is maybe like a very American proclivity. Um, uh, and then there’s also, you know, I think there are some people who, who in this space so much is driven by personal experience and anecdote right now.

Logan Davidson: And you have a ton of people who I think very honestly and accurately describe that IGA was a new beginning, but then the work really began and it’s mindfulness, it’s exercise, it’s diet, it’s gave them the, gave them the ability to kind of retake control of their life. I think there are also people who say.

Logan Davidson: I did, I began over the weekend and I’m good. I’m all better. I’m fine. I don’t need to go do all of those things. And so I do think there’s something incumbent as we explore the research side of this to try to make sure that we’re researching, [00:42:00] researching the difference in outcomes from people who do the integration, who do the, the therapy after, who do the prep, even who stay in touch with their cohort and, and have a peer support element to it versus those who don’t and track those outcomes.

Logan Davidson: I know Dr. Greg Fonzo at UT Austin’s McGill Center at the Dell Medical School, uh, is, is definitely very interested. And is it just the psychedelic or is it the psychedelic assisted therapy or is it somewhere in between or somewhere outside of that? Um, that binary. So, um,

Joe Moore: yeah. It’s just one of my favorite ones here, Logan, is, I think it was USANA ran a trial a while ago with people.

Joe Moore: Under the influence of anesthesia and psilocybin to see if there were benefits and there were benefits, which is fascinating and really challenging to a lot of people in the psychedelic space who think it needs to be both or, you know, I,

Logan Davidson: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, and I like. And again, I’m not an expert or anything, but I think we should all maintain curiosity as we move forward and never be too certain.

Logan Davidson: It’s very dangerous to be certain about anything, um, because [00:43:00] if you’re even like 5% wrong on what you’re certain about, it can kind of lead to your house of carts crumbling, even if there actually was a really good foundation. So I think we don’t yet, we, we definitely don’t know how these work. I think we don’t yet know the best way to deliver care, um, with psychedelics.

Logan Davidson: Um, I think that’s something we’re gonna learn about over the next few years. And I’ll even go like a little further. I think we’re gonna get these drugs approved, get them into the world, and then still have at least another few years of refining the way that we deliver care. ’cause I think that’s just the reality of how basically every treatment and medication goes.

Logan Davidson: You get it out there and then you find out more of what it can be used for. Think about Wellbutrin, right? Uh, a treatment for depression and a number of other conditions, and also an off label, very effective treatment for A DHD. And until it got into the world, we didn’t know that. And so there’s just so much more we’re gonna learn.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Amen to that. Um, a story I like to tell just to like further this point is, um, I, I was in chronic pain from probably age like 22 to like [00:44:00] 33, 35, something like that. Um, really intense. MDMA and psilocybin use actually helped it go away. Mm-hmm. No clinician really made a meaningful difference in it over time.

Joe Moore: Um, but it was me, me, but, you know, there was a lot of context around that. It wasn’t just the, um, just the drug. Yeah. There was, you know, social, the different activities going on and stuff like that. So it was really, you know, fascinating and yeah. You know, worth not.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, for sure. Something that I think, and I’ve, I’ve, I think we may have talked about this offline at some point.

Logan Davidson: I’ve kind of waxed poetic on it for the last few months is, and, and, and I’m one of the people I think who has kind of helped make this happen, but we’re so focused on the medicalized version of psychedelics, and then there’s kind of the, the ritualized and theo church spiritual side of it. But some of the most incredible stories that you’ll hear.

Logan Davidson: Or people who did kind of heal alone or heal in a, in a context of friends and community. And we wanna make sure that people are accessing care safely. And you know, maybe the compounds they’re accessing in the [00:45:00] underground or from illicit, um, sources are not there. So I’m not in any way endorsing this, but you hear about people who go to a music festival with their best friends, right?

Logan Davidson: And they have this experience and it’s a set and setting, and they’re with people who they’re able to process things. And whether it’s a physical condition or a mental condition, there’s a whole element to the way that psychedelics work, even from the, the treatment perspective that we’re not really able to engage in because of the sort of strict limitations of advocacy and research.

Logan Davidson: But to your point, um, you know, there are all these people who have these stories about, I got it, I used it in my, my own setting, my own kind of container, and here are the benefits that I saw. But you can’t get that published in a journal. Um, at least not yet,

Joe Moore: you know, so we’re, we’re kind of working on case series like that.

Joe Moore: Um, there’s all sorts of really interesting end of once. That are finally getting put into literature. Um, I work at the, uh, psychedelics and pain association. We’re seeing a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, serious, like snowmobile accidents or ski accidents. One of my friends, actually, Logan, [00:46:00] he um, he had a really bad, uh, skiing or snowboarding accident in South America.

Joe Moore: Total paralysis, never gonna walk again. You know, months and months at the rehab hospital. Was doing mushrooms at a music festival months later. His toes actually started moving and now he’s walking, you know? Yeah, yeah. Psychedelics, it’s,

Logan Davidson: there’s, there’s a guy here who had a stroke who, you know, told his doctor he was gonna do it.

Logan Davidson: There was a conversation, but he’s similar to use psilocybin and had a, had a dramatically accelerated recovery timeline compared to other people. And those are things that I think are so interesting and, and one of the big reasons it would be great to see the federal government start putting significant funding towards psychedelic research and even other states, is there being a pot of money to better understand how that works and if it is a safe and effective treatment, make it available to everybody, not just the folks who know where to access, you know, these medicines and, and how to use ’em.

Joe Moore: Yeah. My, um. Final, final thing on this thing is the, uh, the recent trial with IV DMT for people in strokes [00:47:00] that looked really, really good. And I would be really curious to see what kind of like a low dose infusion of Ibogaine would do for a similar population, um, given what we know about TBI now. Um, so fascinating frontiers, everybody.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Yeah. Really exciting stuff. And you know, even once we answer some of those questions, Joe, it will produce infinite new questions as we continue to go on this, on this journey.

Joe Moore: I wouldn’t have it any other way. So I wanna talk about national security concerns and psychedelics and, um, we, I love this kind of conversation.

Joe Moore: So, um, do you ever see the series Homeland? Oh yeah, absolutely. So. You know, I think this is a really cool like, kind of case right? Of um, a person in a pretty, you know, sensitive position in the government needing psychiatric care and not necessarily getting, you know, it’s a little more complicated than it not getting what they need.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And, um, I think we see that [00:48:00] regularly. People with top clearances really, you know, serious info and, um, sometimes they can’t get the help they need inside the existing healthcare apparatus of the armed services or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes they’re going doing cash pay with a clinician that is wildly, you know, not on the books, you know, and Right.

Joe Moore: Getting that care. And then we have, um. You know, service members receiving drugs overseas, you know, through different means. And you know, that’s kind of wild. Sometimes they’re exposing themselves to legal risk by buying locally, um, which could induce some sort of compromise, compromise situation. And then if we, if we look at scenarios like, um, psychedelic psychotherapies or, you know, interventions like Iboga, um, received illicitly.

Logan Davidson: Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: You, you, you then kind of have an individual that has compromise over somebody with really, [00:49:00] you know, serious intelligence. And, you know, I’m not saying anybody in particular is a bad actor necessarily here. Like, I’m not naming names, uh, put it that way. And then, uh, you know, what does that, what does that mean for us as a nation?

Joe Moore: And, and this is kind of, this comes from us shooting ourselves in the foot with, um. The, uh, controlled substances act, right? Yeah. Generally, like we did this to ourselves, put ourselves in a compromised position, and should we, and you know what, what’s cool here is that it looks like there’s a path towards some sort of availability, you know, but we’re still exposed right now, and it’s a, it’s a real living threat.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I, I think we have socially put ourselves in these positions, various different positions over many, many decades. You think about there was a time in, especially within, in the United States, and not just the United States, where even, you know, being an a homosexual with [00:50:00] something that could be used against you and could end your professional career and or, you know, essentially destroy your personal life.

Logan Davidson: Fortunately, we are, we are past that, most of the way past that. But you look back and it’s okay, we created this framework by which we could be exploited, by which we were vulnerable, and it was an entirely, uh, a human made social construct. I think the Controlled Substances Act is a really good example of that as well.

Logan Davidson: Kind of like you noted. There’s lots of consequences of the CSA, um, more than we could get into and, and even a three hour podcast probably. But yeah, one of the biggest ones is all of a sudden. We made accessing this care something that, that put an individual at risk and then by extension puts an entire community or an entire country at risk.

Logan Davidson: And no, I don’t think we should, I think we should be careful right about the way folks can access this. And I’m, I’m very optimistic that in the next few years we start to see an acceleration of reform and reconsideration at the federal level. That will include, I imagine, national security concerns. But it’s something we see, you know, the military is not necessarily, uh, and the, and the national security apparatus [00:51:00] too, at the forefront of change, right?

Logan Davidson: They usually kind of lag behind it a little bit. And so I think you’ll see. Differences for folks who are in the veteran community, maybe who have a security clearance than you will active duty service members. One silver lining here is that it is something people are thinking about. You look at the Douglas Mike Day Act, which was passed as the Crenshaw Latrell Amendment, um, uh, led by Dan Crenshaw, Morgan Latrell to Congressman from Texas, shameless plug for the Lone Star State.

Logan Davidson: Um, and also both, uh, former Navy seals. And that legislation allows active duty service members to participate in this clinical research. And that was historic and essentially a first of its kind. Um, and that I think is the first small step in the right direction towards folks being able to access, uh, this care, not compromise themselves, not lose their livelihood.

Logan Davidson: That’s another piece of it. Say you have a top security clearance, you don’t wanna be compromised, but this is what you’ve done your entire life. Um, you have folks in that side of the world who entered their career at 18 or 19. That’s all they’ve done [00:52:00] forever. Um, so there is no real choice of do I keep this or do I give it up?

Logan Davidson: They, they have to do it. And if they wanna survive, in a lot of cases they have to sometimes engage in a treatment that can compromise that security clearance. So it’s a very fascinating space to play in. It’s a relatively small population, so it doesn’t get a ton of attention. Um, but it is one that I think at least major policy makers are thinking about.

Logan Davidson: Um, both in, I think if, if we’re honest, both about making sure that people in that population can access care, but also making sure humans are gonna do what humans are gonna do. So making sure that we’re, we’re not gonna be compromised for vulnerable as a result of that.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I think it’s super important and, um.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I think there’s so many, so many ways in which this is a, a, a a thing people could be looking at. Did you see the recent, um, grant from ARPA h kinda like a DARPA affiliate? Uh, I did. Yeah. I, yeah, I did. Um, very exciting stuff.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, I think that’s right.

Joe Moore: That sounds right. It was just yesterday, everybody, so we didn’t, [00:53:00] this hasn’t been assimilated yet into everything we do, but fascinating amount of money, um, coming from the feds, which is a huge move.

Logan Davidson: Yeah. Um, sorry, I just went and pulled up, pulled up the email that I got about it and it is a hundred, a hundred million dollars for the effort confirmed.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Amazing. You know, it’s fascinating to me that like the military apparatus has to actually, you know, step in, um, when, you know realistically, uh, federal science funding.

Joe Moore: Could really kind of do Right. Do a big part here. And that’s, I’m a, I’m a board member at the Psychedelic Medicine Coalition with Melissa Sani, and I’m really hopeful for her, her efforts at the federal level to, to hopefully unlock a lot of money. And there’s, there’s this kind of like exponential waterfall effect I think that would impact.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Projects like yours with IGA and, and any other psychedelic project, just because there’s far more papers that everybody could be working with than just scaffolding the science and medicine.

Logan Davidson: Oh, totally. I mean, that is, I think it’s hard to pinpoint what [00:54:00] like the, you know, uh, uh, high water moment is going to be.

Logan Davidson: But I think unlocking significant federal dollars, like from my perspective, has to be it, the largest funder of medical research on the planet is the, is the federal government of the United States. Mm-hmm. And we’re essentially on the sidelines in this space. Um, uh, and, you know, credit to the philanthropists that have driven this so far, credit to the states that have put money into research, credit to the, the small amount of money that the federal government has put in.

Logan Davidson: But we all know we’re, we’re dealing with a, a small puddle of water compared to the ocean that exists, um, in broader federal medical research. And so someday we just gotta get our puddle of water into that ocean.

Joe Moore: So speaking of oceanic pools of cash, the big pharma groups, like what, what are you all kind of speculating on about big pharma generally in terms of when might they come to the table?

Joe Moore: ’cause they have plenty of money too, and they can do things pretty quickly.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, yeah. I think, [00:55:00] um, well the issue of, of big pharma generally is, you know, probably one of the, the. Most difficult touch points in this space. Um, I, you know, I’ll, I’ll offer my speculation. I won’t speak for anybody else. I think over the next three to five years, you’re gonna see major pharmaceutical companies start to engage in a much bigger way.

Logan Davidson: I think the first time one of these molecules gets approved, whether it’s psilocybin from Compass or sna or Lycos, you know, gets their, their additional phase three done and gets it in front of the FDA. Um, once that happens, I think that will be the major moment. This, the, the proof of concept has happened.

Logan Davidson: Um, you have a bunch of these small kind of startup pharma companies. I am certainly not a, not a, not a business expert, but I feel like if I were a multinational conglomerate, like you see from like Johnson and Johnson or Pfizer, the thought of like, oh, well let’s just acquire this new business unit and we don’t need to start over.

Logan Davidson: We can just do it, I think is a really realistic expectation for what’s gonna happen or mm-hmm. That they immediately begin working on [00:56:00] their own. Generic or, or, or, or comparable version of it. Um, there are many things that can be said about pharma. Many, most of them critical. But one of the, the, I think silver linings is they’re not gonna miss out on a profit opportunity or a market opportunity.

Logan Davidson: And so I think they’re absolutely going to take it and they’re just waiting for the next thing. You know, we, we don’t need to go in depth, but AbbVie’s deal with Gilgamesh, I think is a really, really instructive model for what you may see happen. Um, I also am reminded a little bit of the way that things work in the oil patch in Texas, during good times, you have a lot of expansion during, during bus times, right?

Logan Davidson: You have contraction. But a lot of that expansion looks like the major oil and gas companies acquiring smaller exploration companies, right? And so you have all the smarter startups, they do the work, they get it above, you know, this level, and then the big behemoth come and comes and acquires them. And that is my speculation for what I think is gonna happen.

Logan Davidson: And like psychedelic pharma development,

Joe Moore: that’s, that’s generally how I, um. I use a software [00:57:00] analogy ’cause that’s my background, but like, I think Okay. Yeah, there’s a lot there. Like you, you develop all this ip uh, this other group can make way more money off of it than you can they buy it and Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Joe Moore: And why wouldn’t they? Um, so yeah, I’m, I’m expecting to see a lot of m and a activity in the next year. Um, yeah, I think, I think you’re spot on that once we see FDA approval on one, we’re gonna see an acceleration. Um, yeah. I would hope it comes before that though. ’cause the, the results are so promising. We just keep getting breakthrough designation status on these molecules.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. You know, that to me is the signal. Um, yeah. You know, and, uh, I’m hopeful. Um, so Logan, what else, what else did we maybe miss that’s really important that, that people are curious about here?

Logan Davidson: Um, wow. Uh, that, that might be the hardest question you’ve asked me this whole time because there’s too much Um, because there’s too much.

Logan Davidson: Yeah, there’s too much. Yeah. Um, if there’s one thing that, that I have not gotten the chance to cover in a lot of podcasts or, or talks that we’ve [00:58:00] done ’cause everything’s so focused on what happened or what, or what happened in Texas or how did you get $50 million? Um, which I would encourage all of you to keep buying gas ’cause that gives Texas more money and then we will spend it on psychedelic research.

Logan Davidson: Um, uh, but is the kind of the role of a bunch of different advocacy organizations, a model that I’m really passionate about, which is the state model. I think a lot of people see all of this happening and they wonder, how can I get involved? And their first thought is, I should go work at maps. I should go work with Brian Hubbard at Americans For, I began, I should go join one of these national, you know, mission-driven organizations.

Logan Davidson: But what we’ve seen, um. Across the country is the really effective, really significant kind of surprise. Victories have been driven by people and organizations that are local to and dedicated to that state. You think about like the New Mexico psilocybin win that we got, and this, this legislative session that was of New Mexico by New Mexico foreign, New Mexico National partners didn’t come in until that was already cruising Texas.[00:59:00]

Logan Davidson: We had T 4G MH. Hawaii has the Clarity project and so I just, you know, if I can take a moment to get on a soapbox and plug that if you’re in a state and you wanna see change, the most efficient and effective thing you can do is start to engage your state. Find out who’s on the ground and working in your state capital.

Logan Davidson: If it’s nobody, that generally means it’s you. When you look around and wonder who’s doing this and there’s no one else and you have a, a passion and a commitment to it, then I think that that kind of falls to you. And if there’s already a state-based organization, join up with them and see how you can help everything from.

Logan Davidson: Volunteering at events, writing letters to members of the legislature calling if you’re comfortable showing up and going to meetings and kind of telling your story because these wins have, all the big wins have all been driven by folks who are, who are from those states, who care about those states, who have a personal connection to them.

Logan Davidson: Um, and so I think that’s something that kind of gets missed a lot as people talk about. And I, and I, you know, I talk about vets, for example, right? And it’s, but so often vets is collaborating with other organizations to get the win, and a lot of times it’s local state orgs led by [01:00:00] local leaders.

Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah.

Joe Moore: And I, one thing I’d Aspen I was really inspired by was just how. Excited lawmakers were mm-hmm. Um, you know, people, elected officials in the room saying, you know, snarky stuff to me off the record. Well, I didn’t ask to go on the record with them, but, you know, saying, I just didn’t even know who I was.

Joe Moore: We’re talking about Suboxone and like kind of the racket around Suboxone. Mm-hmm. I’m pro suboxone, everybody, but there’s limits. There’s limits and there’s a lot of issues around it. And um, you know, just hearing lawmakers have that kind of sophisticated. Knowledge. Mm-hmm. And talking points. I don’t, you know, I don’t expect a lot from politicians.

Joe Moore: It was really great to get Nor should you. Yeah, yeah. It was really great. Like hear that and like, oh, okay, you guys understand that we need a new, holistically appropriate system and that people are just conning us as taxpayers. Regularly. [01:01:00] Oh yeah, yeah. And we could do so much better. I think that’s kind of, I think at the end of the day, that’s kind of the thing.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Maybe, maybe no utopia, but we could do so much better.

Logan Davidson: We can do better. Yeah. We can absolutely do better. We’re doing better now than we were a few decades ago, and we’ll be doing a lot better a few decades from now than we will, than than, than we are now. Um, and yeah, those politicians who, who get it, who see the change, and there were a lot of them in Aspen, I think there were even more who couldn’t quite make the trip.

Logan Davidson: Um, not to, to shamelessly push this again, but they’re looking for someone from their state to come walk arm in arm with them who can push from outside the legislature while they push from inside it. And so, um, I know you’ve got a lot of listeners and, and yeah, it’s a question I get a lot is how do I get involved and I think in a big way, like, stop looking for a seat at the table and just grab your chair and pull it on up.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I told a friend the same thing. I was like, Hey, I could probably get you on that board. Do you want it? Like, wait, really? I was like, yeah, it’s not hard. Yeah. Like people [01:02:00] need help. Like not enough people are stepping up. It’s not all that competitive. Yeah. And you know, well-intentioned people with some energy to spare.

Joe Moore: Please, please do it. Um, we need, this is an all hands on deck moment, kind of always has been. Mm-hmm. But, um, we can do a lot here in the next couple years to do a lot of good. Um, yeah. I’m trying to check my notes here. Do we do, um, final thing? Final thing, and hopefully this is relatively clean, but the, um, idea of, um.

Joe Moore: What does this deal look like for states? So we’ve got, you know, Texas and a few other states jumping in. Hopefully a big pharma group will jump in, a Texas university will be attached. And um, like what, what kind of benefits do states get and is there, um, yeah, like, I guess what is the hopeful long-term benefit look like to states in this kind of a participatory model?[01:03:00]

Logan Davidson: Yeah, absolutely. Well, outside of the benefit of getting Brian Hubbard to come to your state and getting to, to hear from him live, right? Um, uh, yeah, so the way the legislation is drafted is, it kind of puts the onus currently on the developer and the applicants to say, give us the best deal that you see realistic for the states.

Logan Davidson: I think there’s a couple of things that could come into play in each state. We will see how it goes. There may eventually become a standard model, um, where it’s just copy paste across every state, but likely the thing is, is it’ll be a little bit different for every single state things that I know have been proposed or, um, you know, discounted lower no cost access to the treatment, excuse me, for patients in that state.

Logan Davidson: Right. So that’s one of the things that’s come up, certainly in conversations about Texas. Texas put the money in to maybe develop this, this pharmaceutical. So at the end of the road, Texas patients will have access to it cheaper. There’s also conversations around revenue sharing, seeing a return on their investment, either just up to the amount they invested or maybe even more [01:04:00] royalty payments, that kind of thing.

Logan Davidson: And I think if you really see, if you see the full vision of what is possible here, which is, you know, I don’t think you’d ever get to 50, but a really significant geographically ideologically diverse set of states that come together to do this. Say you’ve got a, you know, west coast, California, Oregon, Washington, joining up with the Mountain West and Colorado and Nevada, and all the way across into the deep South and up into the northeast.

Logan Davidson: Mm-hmm. Then you start to have a really substantial conversation about changing the way drugs are researched and developed and doing it in a way that houses a lot of that authority and benefit in the states. We’re not there yet, but that I think is going back to something we said a little bit earlier about the entire space.

Logan Davidson: So much of this is being written right now. There’s so much innovation that’s gonna happen. I made an analogy last year in a conversation with a bunch of people at a conference that like, we’re staring at a blank page and it’s an incredible burden and an incredible opportunity and we’re gonna put some things on the page that don’t work and we’ll cross those out and we’ll keep trying new things.

Logan Davidson: But those are the [01:05:00] kind of the key benefits to the states that I understand from the way the I Begin initiative can go is some revenue and then also reducing the cost. And then the final point is that revenue can then go to support all kinds of public services. A portion of any revenue Texas gets is dedicated to veteran services in the state.

Logan Davidson: You could see the same thing happen in states that maybe were hit a little bit harder or, or had more acute experiences with the opioid crisis supporting traditional wraparound treatments there, or emergency intervention, or even start to see, you know, a lot of times there’s a casino in your state, the tax revenue from that goes to public safety.

Logan Davidson: So what does it mean when that revenue generator for your state is a, you know, is a pharmaceutical that’s helping heal people. You know, Dr. Dream, no small dreams, right? Be as flexible and innovative as you want, go to your legislature and say, I think this is a good idea. Um, they don’t have many good ideas in legislatures, so bring your good one.

Logan Davidson: And I’m sure, uh, folks will engage with it in a really positive way.

Joe Moore: Yeah. And um, I think finally on that, to extend that point, you made a great point and it’s been about [01:06:00] just the energy of the local community being engaged. Mm-hmm. And having local champions is hard to overstate. You know, you can fly in people from outta state, but so what, what about that guy that’s in every single meeting?

Logan Davidson: Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, I mean, I can’t tell you the number of times I, as a staffer in the Texas House would have a meeting with someone who wasn’t from Texas and. I can admit I absolutely took that meeting in a different context than I would have if they were from here. There’s a big attitude. If you’re not, you’re not from around here.

Logan Davidson: What are you doing in our legislature? Uh, what, you know, if, if, if you’re from Texas and you’re in Nebraska, you’re gonna get the question, what are you doing in Nebraska? But if you are from that state and passionate and, uh, and especially a community leader, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you hold some elected position or appointed position, maybe you’re just a good neighbor and a good friend and you should, you know, you coach your little league team.

Logan Davidson: And so when someone sees you leading on this initiative, it creates a permission structure for them to get involved, but also exposes them to this from a [01:07:00] totally trusted, credible messenger. That otherwise wouldn’t exist. And we’ve got local leaders all over the country. I’ve mentioned a couple of them, but from the Ivy game perspective, you’ve got Sally Roberts in North Carolina, Nate Morgans in Oklahoma, um, you know, Ricky in Tennessee, chase in Texas, who have really taken up the mantle of this cause and said, we’re gonna go, we’re willing to put our reputation on the line.

Logan Davidson: We’re willing to, you know, do the interviews, show up on, on podcasts, and post more on our social media accounts. And those are the things that really drive change. It all comes together. Identifying any one thing is a bit of a fallacy because it requires everything. Every single player on the basketball court is necessary to get a win.

Logan Davidson: Um, or a football field. If you’re a fan of Texas Tech football, every player on the field is gonna get us a win. Um, but that’s a really impactful one. That’s someone who maybe walks away with the game ball, is that local leader who leverages that credibility and those local relationships.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I love that.

Joe Moore: All right, Logan. Um, where can people find you online?

Logan Davidson: Uh, yeah, you can find me, uh, uh, at Logan Davidson, [01:08:00] tx. That’s my, my handle on Instagram and Twitter. But really, if you want to keep track of me and the work that I’m doing, uh, at t the number 4G MH, it’s text igra and mental health, and then at Vet Solutions is vets, and you can see all the incredible work being done on the advocacy space with those organizations.

Joe Moore: Amazing. Logan, thanks so much for your efforts. Thanks for joining us today, and hope we get to do it again.

Logan Davidson: Absolutely, Joe, this was great. Looking forward to the next time. Thanks.

November 26, 2025November 26, 2025

What the Cancer Community Actually Needs from Psychedelic Care

Anne Hamilton - Psychedelics and Cancer Survivors

By Anne Hamilton, JD, MA

When people talk about psychedelic therapy, the focus usually stays on depression, trauma, or neuroplasticity. These conversations matter, but they rarely touch the existential fear that defines the lives of people facing life-threatening illness. I write this not only as an attorney and psychedelic nonprofit executive director, but as someone who has lived this terrain myself as a cancer survivor.

I was raised Catholic and grew up with a respect for ritual and mystery, even when filtered through institutions. My early life followed a logical sequence. I studied at Notre Dame, earned a master’s degree at Stanford, graduated from Yale Law School, and clerked for a federal judge on the Ninth Circuit. My identity was built around structure and reasoning. Then, at thirty-five, I was diagnosed with Stage 3C breast cancer. I survived surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation. From the outside, it looked like I had “won.”

In reality, surviving was the beginning of a psychological unraveling no one prepared me for.

The Unspoken Crisis in Cancer Care

Many survivors describe the same aftershock: fear of recurrence, dissociation, the loss of desire or identity, the sense that the body returned from battle but the self remained out of reach. Medicine treats the tumor but rarely the terror.

Women, in particular, often arrive at survivorship with a long history of being dismissed or minimized in clinical settings. These patterns do not disappear when they enter healing spaces, including psychedelic ones.

I tried everything that was available: therapy, SSRIs, meditation, exercise, support groups. Nothing reached the core. It was a carefully supported psilocybin session that allowed me to face mortality without collapsing under it. For the first time after treatment, I felt meaning return. I felt myself return.

That experience aligned with what researchers had already begun demonstrating. In the Johns Hopkins trial, people with life-threatening cancer experienced substantial and sustained reductions in depression and anxiety after a single psilocybin session.

The NYU team found similar long-term improvements in cancer-related distress.

Recent reviews in Cancers and JAMA Oncology continue to build on this evidence. Early work on psilocybin-enhanced group psychotherapy is beginning to mirror what many survivor communities report anecdotally.

Psycho-oncology has also shifted toward meaning-centered interventions, grounded in Viktor Frankl, which have improved spiritual well-being in both advanced cancer and survivors after treatment. Across these threads is a clear throughline: survivors need help with meaning, identity, belonging, and mortality.

Why I Founded a Survivor-Led Approach

In 2023, I looked around and saw that no one was building the kind of space survivors actually needed. Research was happening in universities. Retreats were happening abroad. But there was no survivor-centered ecosystem that brought safety, legality, lineage, and long-term integration together. Nothing grounded in lived experience.

So a small group of us, all survivors ourselves, did what survivors have always done. We created what we needed. Initially, we came together simply to help a friend. What began as an act of care has grown into a movement. Survivors are shaping the model. Peer leadership is emerging. Cultural lineages are being honored in ways that go beyond performance. And participants are demonstrating, over and over, that meaning and presence can return after years of shutdown.

Patients and Survivors Need a Different Model

Many psychedelic settings unintentionally recreate the same unhealthy power dynamics survivors already face in medicine. Work with people living with cancer and serious illness requires humility and real caution. Yet a pattern appears again and again: someone has a profound psychedelic experience and suddenly believes they are “called” to offer it to others, as though insight alone qualifies them to hold profoundly vulnerable people.

This is not care. It is ego. And for those navigating illness — women and men, and especially young women — it can feel unsafe.

Survivors do not need to be managed, molded, or guided by someone else’s revelations. We do not need facilitators, clinicians, or doctors whose personal awakening becomes the organizing force of the space. And we especially do not need well-meaning newcomers positioning themselves as leaders in a field they have not yet contributed to or been shaped by.

What we need is to be trusted. To be listened to. To be in environments built around our boundaries, our wisdom, and our lived reality.

What Survivors Need From This Field

Across survivor communities, several themes appear consistently:

The ability to speak about mortality plainly.
Survivors benefit when facilitators meet mortality with steadiness rather than reassurance. That requires presence, not talk therapy.
Facilitation grounded in humility, not personal revelation.
Survivors are highly sensitive to ego, projection, and spiritual bypassing. Insight alone does not prepare someone to hold people who have lived with serious illness.
Approaches that combine evidence with culture and ceremony.
Preparation, supported sessions, and integration matter. So do music, ritual, and lineage. Many survivors respond best when these threads coexist.
Community and continuity.
A single psychedelic session can open the door to healing, but the return to daily life requires weeks or months of integration and shared inquiry.
Environments that feel alive rather than clinical.
Medical buildings often trigger memories of diagnosis. Survivors gravitate toward nature-based or community-rooted spaces where their bodies can finally relax.
Cultural and ethical accountability.
Survivors increasingly ask for clarity around training, lineage, compensation, and scope of practice.

These are not programmatic features. They are patterns emerging across the field as survivors articulate what safety and belonging actually mean.

What We Are Seeing as Access Expands

Across research settings, regulated centers, and community programs, similar shifts are beginning to appear. Survivors describe a return of presence after years of numbness. Some rediscover humor. Some reconnect with partners or children. One young mother with metastatic disease told us her experience “gave me the strength to live with metastatic breast cancer.” Another participant laughed in her sleep for weeks afterward.

The demand reflects this reality. Survivorship Collective now has a waitlist of more than one hundred people. We are running twelve retreats next year and expanding to as many as thirty in 2027. All of this has happened entirely through word of mouth. We do not advertise. People come because of our reputation, our ethics, and because the need is enormous.

The stories are powerful, but they also highlight the need for ongoing rigor, thoughtful pacing, and humility as this work expands. Scaling survivor-informed care will take time. It raises questions about access, cost, training, and cultural accountability. These challenges are real, and acknowledging them makes the work stronger, not weaker.

Where the Field Must Go

If psychedelic care is to meet the needs of people living with serious illness, we will need ecosystems rather than isolated interventions. Survivors benefit when research and ritual collaborate. When clinical knowledge and cultural lineage inform one another. When community holds the work long after the session ends.

Healing after serious illness is not a single moment. It is a long return.

A Closing Reflection

I am grateful to Psychedelics Today for making space for this conversation. If you are a survivor, clinician, facilitator, researcher, caregiver, or someone who has walked this terrain yourself, I hope this piece opens a path for further dialogue.

The future of psychedelic care for serious illness will not be built by one group or one perspective, but by a community willing to listen, adapt, and keep survivors at the center.

Learn more at survivorshipcollective.com.

November 21, 2025June 11, 2026

Evelyn Eddy Shoop MSN, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Lived Experience, Qualitative Data, and the Future of Psychedelic Care

Overview

Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC joins Psychedelics Today to share her journey from Division I athlete to psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner and psilocybin research participant. In this conversation, she explains how sports injuries, OCD, and intensive treatment led her into psychiatry and eventually into a psilocybin clinical trial at Yale. Her story weaves together lived experience, clinical training, and a call for more humane systems of care and better qualitative data in psychedelic science.

Early Themes: Injury, OCD, and Choosing Psychiatry

Early in the episode, Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC describes how multiple season ending injuries in college and serious mental health stressors in her family pushed her to rethink her life path. Originally pre vet, she stepped away from veterinary medicine after realizing she could not tolerate that environment.

During a semester off for surgery and mental health, she completed intensive outpatient treatment and family therapy. That time showed her how powerful psychological work could be. It also reawakened a long standing curiosity about the brain, consciousness, and human experience. This led her to switch her major to psychology and later pursue psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner training at the University of Pennsylvania.

At Penn, she felt supported academically and personally. Her interest in psychedelics grew as she realized that standard OCD treatments and high dose SSRIs were not giving her the level of functioning or happiness she knew was possible.

Core Insights: Psilocybin Trials, Qualitative Data, and Clinical Skepticism

In the middle of the episode, Eddy shares the story of finding a psilocybin trial on ClinicalTrials.gov just as she was about to start ketamine therapy. She received placebo first, then open label psilocybin, and describes the dosing day as one of the hardest days of her life, with benefits that emerged slowly over months through integration.

She uses her experience to highlight why qualitative data matters. Numbers alone cannot capture the depth of a psychedelic journey or the slow unfolding of meaning over time. She argues that subjective stories, even difficult ones, are essential for clinicians, researchers, and policymakers.

Key themes include:

The central role of integration support in turning a crisis level session into lasting growth
How trial environments on inpatient psychiatric units can feel like prison instead of healing spaces
The limits of double blind placebo trials when participants become desperate for active treatment
The need for more nuanced language around psychosis and psychedelic harms

Eddy also addresses skepticism in psychiatry. Many providers fear substance induced psychosis and feel uneasy with medicines whose mechanisms are not fully understood. She suggests that more lived experience stories and careful education can help bridge that gap.

Later Discussion and Takeaways

In the later part of the episode, Eddy and Joe discuss harm reduction, ketamine risks, and how poorly designed systems can create harm even when the medicine itself is helpful. Eddy describes being treated as “just another psych patient” once the research team left for the day, including being denied basic comforts like headache relief after an emotionally intense session.

She calls for:

More humane hospital and research environments
Required psychedelic education in psychiatric training
Honest, nonjudgmental conversations about substance use with patients
Stronger public education for students and festival communities

Eddy also invites listeners in Wilmington, Delaware and nearby regions to connect if they need a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner for psychedelic related research. She hopes to bring her lived experience and clinical skills into the emerging field as psilocybin and other treatments move toward approval.

Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC?
She is a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner trained at the University of Pennsylvania, a former Division I athlete, and a psilocybin trial participant who now advocates for more humane and data informed psychedelic care.

What did Eddy learn from her psilocybin clinical trial experience?
She learned that the hardest sessions can lead to deep change when integration support is strong and when there is time to unpack insights, rather than rushing to rate symptoms on a scale.

Why does she care so much about qualitative data in psychedelic research?
Eddy believes that numbers cannot capture the full human impact of psychedelic therapy. Stories show how people actually live with their disorders and integrate change, which is vital for ethical practice and policy.

How does she view psychedelic harms and psychosis risk?
She acknowledges real risks, especially for people with certain histories, but also notes that some psychotic experiences are not distressing. She calls for more precise language, better containers, and honest harm reduction education.

What role does a psychiatric nurse practitioner like Evelyn play in psychedelic care?
Practitioners like Evelyn can assess risk, prescribe within legal frameworks, provide preparation and integration, and help bridge the gap between traditional psychiatry and emerging psychedelic therapies.

Psychedelic care is evolving fast, and this episode shows why voices like Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC are essential in the current psychedelic resurgence. Her blend of lived experience, clinical training, and critical thinking points toward a future where data and story, safety and possibility, can finally grow together.

Links

LinkTree

Transcript

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. I’m joined today by Eddie Shoop, nurse practitioner with a lot of other letters there. Really excited to have you today. Thanks for joining.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, thanks for having me. This is a really cool opportunity. I appreciate it.
Joe Moore: Absolutely. I think it’s gonna be fun.
So. We got connected by the team at, the Penn Conference, Philadelic, which is gonna be, is that coming up in two weeks? Maybe? Do you know the date offhand?
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, November 22nd, I believe. Which is a Saturday.
Joe Moore: Yeah, so if you’re near Philadelphia, go check out that conference. It’s gonna be really cool. I went last year.
It was a, a little bit more expansive than what’s happening, um, on that day long event, but it looks like a really good day long event. I wish I was gonna be there for it. Um, and you know, there, I was told earlier today that the [00:01:00] focus of the conference will be iga, but it’s broader in scope than that, which is lovely.
Um, so can you tell us a little bit about what you’re hoping to present on there?
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, so, um, I will be on the patient panel and I think each person up there has about five minutes to talk about. Um, you know, their experience and what they’re hoping to, uh, project to the people listening. Um, and although I haven’t specifically curated exactly what I’m gonna say yet, um, it’ll be something along the lines of the fact that integration is.
Very, very important. Um, I don’t think that I would have been able to get as much as I got out of the study that I participated in if it weren’t for the support that I had throughout integration. Um, so I’ll probably touch on that and then, um, you know, just an opportunity to [00:02:00] share as, as someone who’s been through it, I think, um.
You know, there’s a lack of patient perspective out there, and we look a lot at the data and the numbers and things like that. But, um, it’ll be, it’ll be cool to share more of like the subjective experience of what goes on. So, yeah, that was kind of like a long-winded answer.
Joe Moore: Well, thank you for, thank you for that.
Could you give us a little bit, i of an idea of your background and, and how you ended up here interested in this topic? You know, I think worth noting as we talked about, uh, not to spoil you had some injuries, but you’re a big athlete for a while and then you kind of entered medicine. You kind of, that kind of arc.
Eddy Shoop: Oh my gosh. Yeah. What a question. So I, um, you know, growing up I played a lot of sports. I was very physical, um, and. That I, I would say that kind of became my [00:03:00] identity in a sense. And ended up going to the University of Florida. I got recruited to play lacrosse there, um, which was a tremendous opportunity.
And then I ended up having multiple, uh, season ending injuries. So that was definitely a lot to deal with. And at the same time, there was a lot of, um, mental health. Stressors going on in my life, not only personally, but with members of my immediate family. And at that time I was pre-vet, so I wanted to be a veterinarian ’cause I loved animals growing up.
But after working in a vet hospital as an intern for a couple of months, I realized that that was not for me because I couldn’t handle it. Um, and. There was one semester where I, I ended up taking the semester off, uh, not only for surgery but [00:04:00] for my own mental health. And that’s when, um, I kind of ended up doing like an intensive outpatient type of thing.
And after that I, I realized how. Like what I had been through in terms of, you know, learning through family therapy and all the things going on within my own family and then going through this long treatment process myself. And I was just learning so much and I realized. Since I was little, I had such an interest in the human brain and consciousness and all of these things, and it all kind of just came together.
And I almost had this like epiphany where I was like, I wanna like learn more about the brain. And so that’s when I chose, um, the psych psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner route. Um, and so I changed my major to psychology and. I finished school, finished college, um, [00:05:00] had to take a medical release because, you know, I ended up tearing my A-C-L-M-C-L meniscus and it was just a really nasty, nasty injury, so it wasn’t worth, um, playing again.
Um, and then, you know, but it was fine. ’cause then I got into Penn for nursing school and that was like. A huge wake up call for me because I had been so invested in sports. And then, um, you know, here I am, I’m, I’m capable of academic things as well. And so that was really rewarding. Um, and then, you know, Penn just was an environment where that I could really thrive in.
And I felt super supported throughout my whole education, um, at Penn. And that’s when my interest in psychedelics really kind of took off. Um, and although I had been through, uh. Treatment for my obsessive compulsive disorder, you know, throughout college, I felt that I wasn’t functioning as optimally as I could have been.
[00:06:00] You know, I wasn’t as happy as I, I felt like I could have been, and I was exploring ketamine and I was exploring, you know, going back on high dose SSRIs or, you know, diving back into like more intensive therapy. And I, I didn’t really know. What to do. And I knew that I was interested in psychedelics. So I, I went on, um, clinical trials.gov.
I sent a couple emails out to studies that were recruiting. And, um, it was actually on a Monday, I was about to do ketamine. I was about to start ketamine therapy. And then I got an email from the study recruiters and they said, Hey, we need a patient. Can you be here next week? And at this point I was, um. I was not quite in my master’s program, but I had a small period of time off and I made my way up to Yale School of Medicine for the trial.
And it was a very pivotal moment in my journey with my disorder, um, [00:07:00] in the most positive way. And so that’s just really reinforced my interest in psychedelics. And since that, um, I not only have made. Huge growth as a person and, um, in my own happiness and my relationship with myself. But, uh, yeah, I’ve also just really grown to, to wanna contribute to this field as much as I can.
Joe Moore: Well, I appreciate that it’s important and we have so many people contributing. It’s, um, the story I like to tell Eddie is that we’re. Many decades behind where we should be because of prohibition on, on the substances and prohibition of science. And we’ve really, really need to spend so much time and resources catching up to where we should have been on account of prohibition.
So, mm-hmm. So many basic questions. We have no [00:08:00] clue. Um, and I think, you know, I love, I love the title of the talk you gave at psychedelics beyond the Data because this, um. Or how do we say that? Psychedelic X. Psychedelic.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. I, I go back and forth with it. I don’t really know.
Joe Moore: And, and that was kind of like a, like a student run conference, right?
Is that
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh,
Joe Moore: yeah, they did, they did a good job on that. Um, so the idea is that there’s a lot of stories that aren’t captured. Somehow we’re, we’re kind of, um, not getting the whole picture when we just look at papers with a lot of numbers, right? Yeah,
Eddy Shoop: absolutely.
Joe Moore: Like we should look at those numbers and understand them, but, you know, how do you like to talk about this?
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, I mean, I, as someone who. Has been in school for a long time. Um, it, it can be easy to get wrapped up in the numbers and the science and the pharmacology and the mechanism of action. [00:09:00] And that’s all super important things to be talking about. But at the same time, when, when we’re speaking about these psychedelic compounds that are so powerful and that take your human experience outside of something that is of what we know on planet Earth.
You can’t break it down to numbers. Like you need some sort of subjective component where you can really hear what these people are going through because I, I really do believe that these self derived insights that are subjective are, that is the mechanism, at least for me, that was the mechanism of my healing.
Um
Joe Moore: hmm.
Eddy Shoop: So I, I would like to see more voices and people coming forward, even if their experiences are challenging and they don’t get something out of it, that’s also important. We need to hear, um, as much as we can from the individuals going through it. And I also know that it’s, it’s challenging to talk [00:10:00] about your own battles with mental health.
And so maybe that’s one of the reasons why, um, it can be difficult to hear people’s stories, but. I mean, if you’re someone that’s, that has something to say, I encourage you to, to speak up and, and let your voice be heard to the people doing research on this stuff. ’cause we need to hear it.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, absolutely.
We really do have a lot of, um, reason to thank people who came out about their stories, trusted. People with their health in these clinical trials. Um, people that really have been working in the underground for decades, just really not able to show their face or talk about their results or anything.
Mm-hmm. For fear of all sorts of retribution, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think, yeah, there’s [00:11:00] so many stories yet to be told also, and yeah. Put in writing. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, stories supported by data are the best way to really communicate things. So, hey, here’s this data. Look at these three stories that kind of support this data.
Mm-hmm. And that’s how you really convince politicians and maybe even grant fund, uh, funding organizations that issue grants. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Have you, have you seen any success in any of those lines? Like, how do we actually get this research funded through, through story and data?
Eddy Shoop: Um, you know, I haven’t seen much.
I, I was at, um, the psychedelic Science conference and, you know, even there, I, I really dug to find. Presentations where people were talking about their own personal experience. And I found one, um, I think it was some US veterans were speaking about their [00:12:00] experiences with MDMA. And so I went to that and that was great, and I just, I wanted more of that because those are the things that stick with you and especially like from an academic perspective, I guess.
Um. When you see case studies, you know, they say you learn and practice, you learn when you remember a certain case with a patient. That’s how you learn, uh, best. You know, you can memorize and study and look at numbers all you want, but um, yeah, it’s those experiences that like stick with you and help you remember most.
So, yeah, I don’t know if I answered your question, but Yeah,
Joe Moore: for sure. You did great. Um, and. I wonder, um, how do, uh, let’s see. Sorry. Um, it’s okay. These, these drugs are so powerful and so interesting and just like, kind of transcend what we usually think medicine is like. We have this kind of talk track [00:13:00] about them achieving like curative results in psychiatry, which you don’t usually talk about.
Cures in psychiatry. Mm-hmm. Um. And, you know, none of these things are silver bullets, right? Like, it still requires a lot of work, um, not just the drug. Mm-hmm. It’s just that the drugs with the work can be really, really helpful, um, maybe beyond SSRIs. Yep. Um, in your, in your schooling, I assume you didn’t really talk about psychedelics a ton.
Like professors weren’t giving you weeks and weeks of psychedelic lectures.
Eddy Shoop: No, not weeks and weeks. But shout out to Anita Iyengar at University of Pennsylvania. She’s really doing a lot to, um, have more education about psychedelics in the field, in the school of nursing at Penn, which is great. Um, no specific.
Like modules on psychedelics while I was in school. But, um, you know, you can tell professors are starting to become more open. Uh, they, they can feel [00:14:00] this research kind of creeping up on them and they know that they’re training, uh, future practitioners that are gonna be practicing with medications that are FDA approved and.
Um, you know, we need to be prepared for when this happens. We don’t wanna be the ones playing catch up. And so, um, I think, I think they’re starting to recognize that and the professors at Penn are doing a great job, you know, trying to implement more education around this. But it’s just, it’s tricky when it’s not approved.
And so you also don’t wanna waste time taking away from tools that we already have that are approved. Um, so yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Right on. I think, um, so many people are yearning for deep, deep education at university. There’s a couple projects Yeah. That are, um, coming in that should be helpful, but from what I understand, they’re not perfect.
You know, like it’s, it’s always gonna be an, an [00:15:00] ongoing developing thing, but just giving students access to this information, hopefully in a structured way, what do you need to know? Um. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, there’s always the edgy thing, like how do you actually allow, let’s see, how do you allow people to have experiences, you know?
Yeah. In the early days of LSD, like it was really common to give students LSD, so they could actually. Experience it in, in this like, um, psycho psychotomimetic framework where you’re like instantiating psychosis. Mm-hmm. So you can understand it better, maybe.
Ah,
right. Um, yeah, which is interesting. I don’t, I don’t know how I feel about that.
I think actually let’s, let’s get into a fun one real quick, and this, I think this goes into beyond the data a little bit. Okay. So I’ve been having debates here and there about psychosis. Like, mm-hmm. Psychosis is a really specific diagnosis. Right. But it’s a really, in that specif specificity, there’s a bit [00:16:00] of broadness.
So I wonder if it’s actually a super useful term for us to be using in the psychedelic landscape because Yeah. My sense is that there’s a, um. There’s a lot of categories of experience and mental states that could fall in that category that aren’t necessarily like, bad or harmful to the person. Mm-hmm.
And they could actually be therapeutic. Yeah. This is, this is a, this is a speculation clearly beyond the data. Yeah. So you’re
Eddy Shoop: saying for an individual with psychosis, um,
Joe Moore: so you’re under the influence of psychedelics.
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Theoretically, you could be diagnosed as being, having psychosis. Oh yeah. You know, um, is that necessarily a negative thing to fall into the diagnostic category of psychosis?
If you’re in the middle of a psychedelic experience and isn’t, isn’t it possible that there’s like [00:17:00] subcategories inside, like yet to be fleshed out categories of lived experience that that would help us have better language when we’re trying to talk about psychosis?
Eddy Shoop: Hmm. That’s really, really interesting.
I’ve never thought about that before. And the one thing that comes to mind is like, I have come across, across patients with schizophrenia who are psychotic, but they’re not in distress. And you know, they are voicing that this has never bothered them. I’ve been having these visions and these encounters with.
You know those beyond humanity since I was seven years old. And you know, I have a relationship with these abilities and you know, the medication feels like it’s suppressing it. And that is so interesting to me because, you know, we need to, we have to, for these people, we have to find a balance between feeling grounded [00:18:00] on earth, taking care of our body, being able to do ADLs, activities of daily living.
Sometimes the medication, you, you need to take it in order to get there, but at the same time, like not, um, taking away this as they call it, ability. So I think that’s really interesting. Um, and then, you know, another thing that comes to mind for me is if people start to say that they have taken psychedelics and therefore they understand.
Psychosis feels like that can also be dangerous because people with psychotic disorders are so heavily stigmatized. Um, and so we have, I, I, at least from my perspective, would want to be careful with, um, using that terminology, if that makes sense. But I think it’s a really interesting way to maybe even de-stigmatize the term.
As well. So I don’t know,
Joe Moore: that’s [00:19:00] kind of where I’m going in part. So like, if we look at this basic, you know, here’s, here’s like, you know, Google AI’s first response, right? Psychosis is defined as the mental state, which involves, um, loss of contact with reality, making it difficult to distinguish whether is real and what is not.
If that’s the fundamental baseline, like good God, like
Eddy Shoop: yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s, you know, when is. It’s, it’s rare to not have that sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes we can also be in it for hours,
Eddy Shoop: you know? Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um,
Eddy Shoop: that’s really interesting.
Joe Moore: And I liked how you said like the people with schizophrenia, with psychosis that aren’t in distress, you know, I think that’s real.
Yeah. And that’s, that happens something that we need to like really carefully discuss.
Eddy Shoop: Absolutely. And oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, because you know, we see people that act not like us and we need to give them things that make them act more like us. And sometimes I think, you know, after you give them the medication, that’s when [00:20:00] those negative symptoms really come in and they’re, you know, it really blunts their affect and it makes ’em less engaged in the world.
And, you know, maybe if we didn’t give them the medication, yeah, they’re out of touch with reality, but are they experiencing a life that’s more worth living possibly. Um. And so that’s something I’ve come across in practice that has really kind of rubbed me in some ways that are uncomfortable. But, um, yeah, I don’t know.
Joe Moore: Yeah, and like I, so when I, I think this feeds into the psychedelic harms conversation that’s developing, and I’m glad it is. I, when I see people discussing it, I’m, this is the kind of stuff that comes up for me. I’m just like, oh, how do we do this? Well, I’m just like. I’m kind of like getting tight as I’m watching the conversation.
Oh gosh, guys like this. This needs more care than that. [00:21:00] Yeah. Um, and even in, in sometimes scientific papers, it’s hard to get that level of care because you have to be so specific with what you’re trying to say. Right. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I don’t like, so when we talk about the negative psychedelic experiences, we’re often saying, oh.
You became psychotic. It’s like, well, that’s not enough of a statement.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For 20 minutes
Joe Moore: per day for two days, was that necessarily harmful and was it harmful because the container wasn’t appropriate? Mm-hmm. Um mm-hmm.
Eddy Shoop: For that
Joe Moore: potentiality, you know, or was it
Eddy Shoop: harmful because you didn’t have the support to unravel it afterwards?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Exactly, and I think a lot of this comes from the drug war and us not having like the last 5, 6, 7 decades or whatever to like collectively sort this out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now we’re dealing with a lot of folks that have, you know, a lot [00:22:00] of stigma in themselves about drug harm.
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, yeah. Have you been seeing any good progress in the psychedelic harms conversation?
Eddy Shoop: You know, I have to say I haven’t been as involved in those conversations as I wish that I was. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that a lot of the involvement I have is more on like the clinical side and the medicalization, um, just because of the nature of where my, like life path has taken me, I guess.
But, um mm-hmm. The harm reduction piece is something that I need to brush up on for sure.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It’s, um, yeah, it’s interesting. I, you know, well, let’s go with one that we can actually speak skillfully about, which is ketamine, right? Like there’s this whole kind of bladder issue, um, oh yeah. That can develop and that’s, it seems to be with a specific genotype, like where I don’t, I actually haven’t seen genotype, but there’s a [00:23:00] subcategory of people that have this problem maybe metabolize ketamine differently and, yeah.
Have you, have you seen this characterized at all? Anywhere?
Eddy Shoop: I haven’t, I have heard about it. I haven’t seen it in practice at all. Um, from what I know, it’s you, you have to be taking like, way more than what would be technically prescribed for ketamine assisted therapy. Right. And, and ish you would have to, uh, ish.
Okay.
Joe Moore: So there’s edge cases. So it’s, um, in the ketamine assisted psychotherapy space, it’s like if you start feeling pain. Stop taking it immediately, pain while peeing, immediately sees ketamine. Um, and that can happen sometimes in the first couple administrations. It’s rare. Um, but yeah, like when I hear of people that require surgery, they’re doing an incredible amount of ketamine pretty much daily and that’s, you know, clearly not a good idea.
Yeah. [00:24:00] And then there’s, yeah, I have one friend that did it maybe two or three times, and then he had problems peeing for four years. Oh wow. Yeah. So edge case, right? This is like one story. Yeah. Um, but you know, we’re seeing a lot of benefit from it, but also harm. Mm-hmm.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. And that goes with anything, right?
Um. Yeah, I mean, think about cannabis. There’s people with cannabis use disorder, there’s people with cannabis induced psychosis, alcohol. I mean, what percentage of our population has alcohol use disorder or is functioning at as like a, you know, a functioning alcoholic and maybe not living their life in a way that could be.
Better, I don’t know.
Joe Moore: Right. More fulfilling, happier, whatever. Yeah. Less suffering. Um, right. And it’s a almost a government subsidized drug. Yeah. [00:25:00] Like government imposed monopoly. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So I think we do, we do really want to be careful about any of these substances. And I, there’s this funny conversation I, I bring in sometimes Eddie around like, how.
Uh, might be flat lining. Um, how do I, I can hear you. How this line? Yeah. Uh, in my brains. Oh,
Eddy Shoop: I thought you meant the audio was like coming.
Joe Moore: No, no. I failed on that one. It’s, well, here it is. Here it is. Got it. All right. I rebooted. So the idea is like, um. Any kind of drug administration potentially carries risks and benefits, potential harms, and then, yeah.
Um, a lot of people are like, everybody should just be sober, right? Mm-hmm. And that just doesn’t necessarily seem like a position that we can push, right? Yeah. Um, it, it’s not really a tenable [00:26:00] position. And so how do we actually educate people skillfully about. All sorts of substances to say, Hey, like here’s the risks and challenges you might face if you take these on.
Yeah. Um, and I, I kind of come from this position of like, yeah, it’d be really great if people could use less alcohol. Um, for a lot of reasons. It’s a really kind of harmful drug. Mm-hmm. Um, and people’s poor hearts when they take methamphetamines, good god. Hmm. Um, people aren’t really ever. Educated on the heart risk Yeah.
Of methamphetamines before they use it. Right? Yeah. Um, especially smoked. And I, and I wonder what kinda like benefit we would actually have, you know? ’cause clearly dare Did you have dare when you were growing up?
Eddy Shoop: No,
Joe Moore: I have learned about it though. It, yeah. Yeah. Drug is this, uh, drug awareness, resistance education?
I think it was, yeah. It made me very excited about PCP and LSD at a very young age. Um, still have not tried PCP, [00:27:00] um, but yeah, it’s just like, what a thing. Like I, I don’t think they gave us the real story. Yeah. Um, and I’m hopeful there. So. Are you, are you excited at Penn to connect with anybody in particular about what you plan to speak about?
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. Um, I’m excited to connect with all of the people at, uh, Penn Psychedelics Collaborative. They’ve done a really good job organizing this conference. Um, also Anita as well. She’s really been my mentor throughout all my education. Um. She’s, she’s created a lot of opportunities for me and, uh, I’m excited to see her.
That’ll be a comfort to, to see her face, hopefully, if she’s able to make it. Um, but really quick, back to the education piece that you were talking about. I do think that education right now is so important, [00:28:00] not only on the clinical side, but on the public side. And, um, I just, I like that you brought that up.
Um, and I’m wondering if you have any ideas for how to foster more education, you know, in, in academic settings. Obviously this podcast is a really good way to disperse education.
Joe Moore: Yeah, but let’s see, I have, you know, been at it for. Almost 10 years starting in May. Um, and, you know, our first product that we ever put together to try to pay the bills for podcasting.
Mm-hmm. Um, just for the hosting bills, which is, you know, not terrible amounts of money. It was a class for college kids to have an easier time. College kids can really get lost out there and sometimes there’s real harms and risks and, uh, we wanted to not only mitigate and educate about those harms and risks, but how do we actually help them have the best use of that risk?[00:29:00]
Eddy Shoop: Mm.
Joe Moore: You know, um, I was chatting with some people in the harm reduction risk reduction space recently about what IFS can psychedelics today put together a series that we can put out for free. Um, which we’ve done, you know, 750 episodes for free here. So, you know, it’s not nothing. Mm-hmm. It’s just, you know, is that really the solution to this?
Not really this answer. Yeah. But how do we create an education package? Um, that we can host here or schools could put in their learning management systems for students to say, okay, I’m gonna engage with these things, or, I’m curious about these things. What do I need to know so I can be safer? Um, and I think, you know, on one hand people are gonna be hesitant to say, oh, we can’t do that ’cause more people are gonna use drugs.
On the other hand, if we’re not educating, we’re gonna have to catch people in rehab, in hospitals, um, potentially more than we would if we actually educated because, you know, um, there’s this really great, uh, success [00:30:00] story. Eddie in uk uh, the group is called The Loop. Mm-hmm. And the loop was providing onsite.
Free drug checking. Um, anonymously and hospitalizations year over year, uh, dropped 80%.
Eddy Shoop: Wow.
Joe Moore: From a music festival. Like what a huge success. ’cause people would say, oh, this has that in it. I’m just gonna throw that out.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah.
Joe Moore: I don’t want that anymore. Kind of
Eddy Shoop: similar to fireside
Joe Moore: ish. Somewhat, yeah. You know, fireside, if you’re having a really hard time, you can choose to call them over.
Um, the ambulance. You know, um, which is, you know, it’s, it’s fraught. I dunno if you need the ambulance, you call the ambulance, but how do you know if you need the ambulance? Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think that’s a big open question. But yeah, the idea is you go to the festival, drop off your drugs, say, is this safe for me?
Based on your own analysis that they mm-hmm. The, the service, the loop just provides you the [00:31:00] data and you get to make an adult decision
Eddy Shoop: Wow. At that
Joe Moore: point. Right. That’s
Eddy Shoop: really smart. Yeah.
Joe Moore: And it’s effectively illegal here to do that.
Eddy Shoop: Right. Um,
Joe Moore: to provide that service based on the, um, the Biden Rave Act from a long time ago.
And I think it’s, um, yeah, people could like lose their property, a property seized, all that kind of fun stuff, um, if they, and not to mention, go to jail if they knowingly had drug use on site.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um. So the tides are turning. Mm-hmm. University groups are now allowed to actually provide test kits to students.
Even seven, eight years ago that wasn’t really available, even at a place like uc, Boulder, which is mm-hmm. Tremendous amount of drug use. Um, I remember the Psychedelic Club of Boulder actually getting kind of threatened by the university for providing drug checking kits like by Dance Safe and other groups.
Because it put their federal funding at risk. Yeah. Nevermind the lives of [00:32:00] their students that Yeah. You know? Yeah. Theoretically have some responsibility to, um, yeah. So in terms of education, we need to, we need to have education that people are, it’s easy to access. They don’t get in trouble for accessing it.
Hopefully it doesn’t go on their record for accessing it. Mm-hmm. Um, and they can ask questions. Um, they, they have safe spaces that they can access to, to learn more. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. There’s just so much there to Yeah. To unpack and I think, I think we can make a lot of difference, you know, if we start making good structured education available to folks.
I’m told there’s people interested in funding that stuff. So hit me up if anybody wants to fund that kind of thing, I’m happy to help keep people out of prison and, and hospital.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah.
Joe Moore: And on the right side of the dirt.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, absolutely. And even requiring it in, um, [00:33:00] psychiatric education, I think would be a huge piece.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, right. Like how do, how do people like yourself speak skillfully to drug using populations? Yeah. And you know, I’m,
I’m a unique case, right? And I, if I have to go to somebody who’s practicing psychiatry or doctor prescribing psychiatric meds of any kind, I have to play a really specific game. Yeah. And it’s, um. And it’s not great to mm-hmm. Have to necessarily not tell the truth or lie or kind of not disclose that I know a reasonable amount about psychiatry at this point.
Yeah.
Um, in order to get the care I, I need or want. Mm-hmm. And it’s really, really troubling. But that’s me as a special case. But then about. A guy that, or you know, any, any patient that goes and maybe they go rave [00:34:00] once a month, eat MDMA once a month. How do you actually talk to ’em about being safe as opposed to saying, I’m only allowed to tell you not to do it.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: I think in the same way we can say, Hey, what if you only drank once a month? Mm-hmm. Or once a week as opposed to every day, you know, and like kind of trying to actually do the thing that keeps them safe. Right. Did you, do you ever have any frameworks of ed education or how do you practice around, how do you practice around that kind of thing?
Eddy Shoop: Um, well it’s funny because when we do like a substance use assessment, say like, what, you know, do you, you use any substances, alcohol and marijuana? Pills, cocaine, benzodiazepines, psychedelics. You know, they don’t really teach us to ask about that one. Um, but I always make a point to ask about it because it could be an opportunity.
To not only maybe like help someone get more out of [00:35:00] that the next time they choose to do it, um, but also, you know, provide some education. Like do you have a history of schizophrenia in your family? Do you have, um, a history of bipolar mania and, you know, an opportunity to educate those individuals that you know.
I understand you want to do these to, to explore and to learn more about yourself, which is great, and you’re allowed to do that. But you also need to know that this could throw you into mania. This could throw you into psychosis, and we wanna make sure you’re safe and you have someone there with you, um, when you decide to use them.
So the same way that we give, um, education about the benzodiazepines that we’re prescribing. I think it’s important for them to be educated on psychedelics as well, especially with the outpour of study results and all these outcomes that we’re seeing. Um, I think people are seeing these results and they’re wanting to get their hands on them, and these are people that are maybe already taking SSRIs who are interested [00:36:00] in trying some MDMA to see if it may helps them feel better because the SSRI isn’t working.
And then, you know, there you risk serotonin syndrome. And so people need, patients need to know about this. Um, so,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm. So I want to transition a little bit into, um, this qualitative data conversation and like, what, why are we missing the boat capturing qualitative data in, in research and, um, yeah. Do you, do you have any kind of thoughts on why we’re.
Just not capturing that or doing a good job telling those stories.
Eddy Shoop: I have a perfect example actually. Let’s have it. ’cause So the study that I participated in, mm-hmm. It was a very, very challenging experience. It was probably the hardest day of my life. Mm-hmm. Um, I really didn’t [00:37:00] reap the benefits of. The dosing session until a couple of months afterwards, and it was a really like grueling process trying to figure out, you know, what the insights exactly were and how I’m going to apply that to my life.
And it was, you know, I was processing a lot and at the same time, um, you know, there, there they did offer to. Or they asked me if I would like to participate in the qualitative interview, which was like 45 minutes long. And at the time I wasn’t prepared to talk about it. I hadn’t even processed it myself yet.
Um, and so I think it would be beneficial, I mean, maybe in future research if possible, to, to give it some time before you ask people to speak about it. And then at the same time, you know, a number is a number. You write it down, it’s one number. But someone’s experience. That’s a whole lot of words, and that’s a whole lot of [00:38:00] room, and that’s a lot to read and it’s a lot to capture in, in the right way.
So I think that makes it also tricky to kind of display that in the literature. Um, but that’s why videos are cool and
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Eddy Shoop: Conferences are cool too.
Joe Moore: Right. If we look at how maps trains people and other groups train people, they’re actually playing a lot of video. And so maybe it’s not structured data that makes it into papers, right?
Mm-hmm. But it’s, it’s almost like sports, right? You’re playing the tape. Yeah. Like pause and like, here what you do here and you know, I, I find that interesting and, um, hopeful. Um, but yeah, couldn’t we do a lot better if we captured tens of thousands of qualitative data points?
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And come up, you know, figure out what the themes are, what are the different elements that are arising, where we see parallels, and how does that go hand in hand with one substance, with one music [00:39:00] playlist, with one disorder that we’re looking at.
Um, you know, I think we have a lot to learn in psychology and psychiatry as well. And this could be a potential avenue to really expand our understanding. Of different disorders. So
Joe Moore: would you think it’s, it’s a bit of an inoculation against this kind of current replication crisis in psychology?
Eddy Shoop: Mm. How do you mean?
Joe Moore: So having all of these stories, um. They’re always gonna be unique. You’re familiar with this kind of like rep replication crisis, right? Like mm-hmm. Say ah, well, okay. A lot of classic fundamental stories in psychology are told over and over and over again. And it turns out with a lot of these things, there’re, you know, one-off studies this, the results cannot be replicated.
Hmm. Um, and they’re, they’re foundational to how we want to think about psychology. So. Like the foundational ways we think about [00:40:00] psychology are based on science that can’t be replicated, therefore major issues. Yeah. So I think like potentially there’s some benefit to like having a huge data set of qualitative data that, you know, even if we can’t replicate the study, we at least have these things that we can look at.
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm. That
Joe Moore: hopefully are valuable. Yeah. And maybe we can have a, you know. Yeah, mine them for some sort of hopeful things in the future. Yeah,
Eddy Shoop: yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah. Uh, so in your, in your presentation, you talked a little bit about skepticism in psychiatry. Mm-hmm. Can you talk about what, what you were trying to get at there?
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. Um, I think that. Uh, there are a lot of psychiatric providers that are resistant to, um, the potential [00:41:00] here with psychedelics. And I think that that is a protective mechanism because, um, you know, we, we see really severe cases on inpatient psychiatric units where, um, people have substance use induced psychosis or.
You know, they, they have done LSD and it has triggered the onset of schizophrenia. And I think that’s scary. And this is also something new and new things are scary. And, um, yeah, I, I think it’s just a, it’s a field that’s like grounded in evidence and data and. Uh, right now it’s tricky because the, the, the pharmacological mechanism for how these compounds are working is not fully understood.
I mean, really need, we, we kind of have somewhat of an understanding of what SSRIs are doing. Like we know what [00:42:00] antipsychotics are doing, uh, mood stabilizers. We kind of understand what they’re doing at the pharmacological level. But, um, with psychedelics, it’s really kind of, we, we don’t know why these.
These hallucinations are happening and there’s no like clear diagram that’s showing you why this is making someone feel better. And so I think that, you know, it makes people skeptical, um, which is why I think it’s really important that we voice those subjective experiences too.
Joe Moore: There’s a recent conversation that’ll get raised at, um, the psychedelic Lived Experiences conference that’s coming up soon in the conversations about harms and risks to the placebo group. Mm-hmm. Um. I was chatting with a friend the other day about her experience receiving the placebo part as part of the MAPS trial and how hopeless that made them.
I was chatting with some friends about, [00:43:00] um, their, their time working at some big research groups like Hopkins or NYU and just how desperate people are to access these treatments, and it’s like their last hope and then they receive the placebo and some people will become suicidal. Right? Yeah. Have you ever, um.
IWI wonder about what kind of qualitative data we could pull from that kind of thing. That would be useful. Yeah. That would be, have you ever thought about the placebo groups at all? Like that? That would
Eddy Shoop: be really interesting. I actually did receive placebo, um, in my study and I came back to get the psilocybin open label.
But, um, yeah, for me that was definitely super disappointing. So I would be really interested to see, and. Yeah. I mean, in a way, does that demonstrate potential bias? Um, I don’t know.
Joe Moore: Well, let’s go into that. So in, in terms of like the placebo, people having such a negative response and knowing they didn’t get it, [00:44:00] and therefore impacting the data.
By knowing they didn’t get it. Yeah, absolutely. Like I think there’s so many methodological issues of science here in, in RCTs, double-blind RCTs, like I mm-hmm. I don’t know necessarily what’s better, but I do know that it seems as though we’re harming people by doing mm-hmm. Placebo RCTs. Yeah. Um, and, um, there could be better ways to do this research, you know?
Mm-hmm. Um, uh, that’s not. Using this methodology. I don’t it, it might be worse data, but it might be more ethical data or probably is more ethical data. Yeah. Especially if we’re dealing with really desperate populations, right?
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Joe Moore: So I’m curious to see what happens there.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, me too.
Because this is really unlike anything the FDA has ever looked at before. Um, so yeah, hopefully. Hopefully we see [00:45:00] something change soon. Yeah,
Joe Moore: please, please, please, please. Yeah, like it doesn’t, it seem like it’s just purely compassionate to explore that a little bit more. Like why would we wanna just keep doing that and
Eddy Shoop: mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Felt like maps was treated a little unfairly, though they could have done it a little better, but you know, if we’re looking at these large pharma companies, it’s not like these people have the right to go kind of run to the media about it.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah, exactly.
Joe Moore: Mm. Right. So, um, yeah, I’m What are you particularly excited about psilocybin, given that was what you received in your trial?
Eddy Shoop: Yes, I’m very excited about psilocybin. Um, I. I see so many people who, and you know, maybe I am biased because I did have an experience where I had tremendous benefit. [00:46:00] Um. But, you know, I do wish that other people could have that opportunity. Like I had, and I encounter patients that I want them to have that opportunity.
And I wanna see what it can do for them. Because they’re, they’ve been on six different SSRIs. They’re getting ECT, they tried TMS, they’re, you know, in the hospital just laying in bed. Like, yeah, I’m participating in groups, I’m taking my meds. Like, I’m still not happy. I’m still not enjoying my life. And it’s like, what is the root of that?
And, you know, I know. Potentially something that could maybe help get to the root of that, but it’s not, I can’t use it. It’s not available to them. And so that’s been really frustrating. But I am super excited about the potential of, um, how many people that’s, this can help. And uh, that’s really what’s driving my desire to, to wanna be more involved.
Yeah.
Joe Moore: What do you, um. For whatever reason, ECT always gets [00:47:00] me. Um, you know, clearly. So when we, all right, I, I’ve taken very few oaths in my life and there’s this like Hippocratic Oath concept, right? Yeah. Um, of like, you know, do you know harm as a general kind of concept, right? But like, you know, I, is that really the right, so I get caught on language often.
I wonder if I have a problem with language, but I’m like, all right, so we’re gonna do a, the, like a intervention. Mm-hmm. That, you know, there’s a, a robust set of side effects. Um, when, when are those considered harm? And like, how do we actually negotiate around that? Do no harm concept.
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm. You know,
Joe Moore: like if we’re, our job is to do interventions that are the right interventions for the right patient at the right time, but also like, you know.
Do the least amount of harm.
Eddy Shoop: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Take, take risks that the client is okay with, you know? How do you, how do you guys talk about that as a, [00:48:00] coming from a non-clinician that’s just kind of recreational internet doctor? I’m not, yeah. I’m not like a, I have zero clinical training for real. Just been at this for a very long time.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah. I mean, um, from my perspective, I. I mean, I am still technically in training. I, I’m licensed, but um, I’m still under the guidance of supervision right now. But as an individual who will be practicing, um, by myself at some point, I think that I’m really going to value the patient’s voice and. What their preference is, whether or not they have, I mean, capacity always comes into play.
You know, someone may not have capacity, which means they don’t understand their diagnosis, they don’t understand that they have their diagnosis and they don’t understand the risk versus benefit of receiving treatment for their, their diagnosis. You know, someone that lacks those um, elements, maybe I have to make a decision for [00:49:00] them, um, in order to get them to a place where.
They’re better. But, um, someone that has capacity to any degree, I think deserves, um, a seat at the table in making a decision for their treatment. And I have encountered providers that, um. Maybe don’t give them a high enough seat at the table, quite frankly.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Eddy Shoop: Um, and they say, you know, this is what, this is the next option.
And in the back of my mind I’m thinking, you know, there’s actually other options that we haven’t really discussed. Um, so yeah, that’s just the way I think about it. Um, ’cause after all the, this person knows themselves better than you do. You know, you might know all the science and. All of the potential avenues for treatment.
But, uh, at the end of the day, you’ll never be inside that person’s mind and understand their experience and,
Joe Moore: mm-hmm.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I, [00:50:00] what’s our phrase? You are the world’s foremost expert on you.
Eddy Shoop: Yeah.
Joe Moore: And like to, to suppose that somebody’s like, um, a bigger expert. It just doesn’t really seem great. Right. Um, yeah.
And how do we do a little bit better there? I, I wonder? I think, um, yeah. Humility, training of some kind, being part of this psychedelic training is a big deal. Mm-hmm. And, you know, just because you’ve had this experience and you’ve read this in the books and whatever, you know, it doesn’t mean this new person’s radical, not radically different from that training.
Eddy Shoop: Um. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Um, so from your lived experience of going through a trial, did you, did you observe things that you thought could have been executed on better from a, say this [00:51:00] wasn’t a clinical trial, and say it was actually a treatment? Like, do you, do you see things that could have been done that were, would’ve been better?
Eddy Shoop: Oh.
Even despite the fact that, uh, the environment that I in, that I was in was not a pleasant one. Mm-hmm. I still, still got a lot out of this therapy. Um, but yeah, I mean, it, I, it was on an inpatient psychiatric unit, which means I have no access to my phone. You know, a lot of my belongings were confiscated from me.
Toiletries, um. You know, you can’t have certain clothing. You’re sleeping on the most uncomfortable bed. Uh, the windows in your room don’t open. You don’t have access to the blinds behind the rails on the window because this is how we treat psychiatric patients in the United [00:52:00] States. This is the environment that we put them in.
Um, you know, you can’t even have visitors. Visitors have to come at a very certain time and it has to be scheduled and, uh. And, and you know, nurses are overworked, especially nurses working on psychiatric units where they have to administer medications to people, uh, without their consent essentially. And that’s not a fun thing to do.
Um, so the environment that I was in, the, the research team was working within the entity of the hospital. And so when the research team was gone after 5:00 PM I’m just a psychiatric patient to them. Um, you know, after my, after my dosing day, I had probably one of the worst headaches I’ve ever had in my life because of how much I was crying.
Mm-hmm.
And I asked for Advil and that wasn’t on my medication list, so I couldn’t [00:53:00] get Advil because, sorry, you know, it’s, I’m the nurse, it’s not on your med list, I can’t give it to you. Um, and so that’s something I had to deal with. Um, you know, the food wasn’t good and this just, it gave me a window into what, like the way that we are treating people with mental health disorders that are being hospitalized for their mental health.
Um, and I just think there has to be a another way. There has to be another way. It is prison. And I know this sounds like really harsh, but. It is like we need to start calling it what it is. We need to change something about this because it’s not an environment that people can thrive in and you know, they can’t even use pens or pencils.
They can’t, I mean, one of my family members was hospitalized for psychiatric reasons and. They weren’t even allowed to have sheets on their bed. They had to sleep on the plastic because they were a risk to su of [00:54:00] suicide. They couldn’t even use a fork. They had to use a spoon to eat things that normally you would eat with a fork.
I mean, there just, um, there has to be another way. How is someone supposed to recover an environment like that? And you know, a lot of the time when it’s depression especially, you have to wait four to six weeks. For the SSRI to kick in and, you know, then you also have them sitting in this environment and it’s just babysitting practically.
Um, but I’m really, I’m getting side. I’m getting side railed. Um, but yeah, that could be different, the environment, but I mean, have it in nature something, anything that’s less sterile. Um, and I think I, I actually was the last patient or participant in that study, and they actually switched out from out of, because I think the one that I was in was phase one or phase two.
And so now they’ve entered I think maybe phase three. And so they’re in an outpatient setting. [00:55:00] So the participants are actually getting two doses now and they can go home afterwards, and it’s in like a nicer environment, which is great to hear. But um, that was probably the most challenging part about my experience that I would’ve liked to change.
Joe Moore: How this, this feels like a ridiculous question to ask, but I’ve been hearing. Some examples to the contrary in the wild lately, but how, how essential do you think it is to have somebody that’s really skilled in the room for you in terms of like a psychological support, psychotherapy, things along those lines?
Like I, I, I’ve been just hearing some really kind of crazy stories. People just being like, kind of next to left alone for the experience.
Eddy Shoop: Wow. Um, I, I think. I can only speak based on my own experience and what I would prefer. Mm-hmm. And, you know, everybody’s different. Some [00:56:00] people may have it within them to be able to trust themselves and be able to process these things on their own and, you know, they may have that strength.
Me personally, I don’t, uh, it was really important for me to have, um, my facilitators there with me who really understood me. On a deeper level, and they helped me feel comfortable and grounded me. And, you know, not only for the dosing day in and of itself, but for the months following, you know, when I was really struggling processing what I had just learned.
Um, I knew that I had those meetings with them to kind of unpack it, and that was really, really important. But at the same time, it’s, it’s very patient led. And they’re not really asking you many questions. You know, you kind of, the, the patient is, they’re just the bumpers and the patient is the bowling ball, bowling or whatever.
Mm-hmm. Um, so the, the person receiving the [00:57:00] therapy is really driving what happens and really the medicine is driving what happens. ’cause the person getting the therapy isn’t deciding what they’re, you know, the, we set intentions, but. It’s gonna teach you what you need to learn about yourself, not what you want to learn about yourself.
So I do think it’s important, um, for people who know their boundaries and know their limits. Um, but I mean, I’m sure there are people out there that can get benefit from it without having facilitators present as well, I would hope that they proceed with caution. ’cause you never know what could come up.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What, um, so at the very least, they should speak your language, right? Yeah,
Eddy Shoop: yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Okay. Um, got it. So, but yeah, I think you’re right on all these counts, right? There’s so many ways to improve this stuff. I think, you know, we [00:58:00] shouldn’t necessarily be crazy critical of the clinical trials as they inform what we’re gonna see in practice.
Mm-hmm. But it is, it is really the case that sometimes stuff’s just done poorly, but we could do so much better. Yeah, we could do so much better and we can keep improving and you know, hopefully in time we’re gonna see just, you know, the data, the actual quantitative data actually improving over time. Um, mm-hmm.
And hopefully qualitative data too. Um, any kind of major thoughts you wanna leave us with or, or things for folks to think about as they’re kind of learning more about the space?
Eddy Shoop: I don’t think so. The only thing I can think of is if you are someone that lives anywhere near Wilmington, Delaware, and you need a nurse practitioner to facilitate some sort of research, um.
To, you know, you, if you need a, a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner for anything involving psychedelics, please don’t hesitate to reach out to me. Um, you know, I’m looking for [00:59:00] opportunities nearby. I’m completing this fellowship, I’ll be done in a couple of months and hoping to dive into this field as soon as I can.
So that’s about it from me though.
Joe Moore: Well, Eddie, thank you so much for spending time with us here and I really. Wish you all the luck at Penn for Phil Delic sharing some lived experience and more connecting with the scene. It’s such a good event, such a good group. Um, definitely wish I was gonna be there and, uh, look forward to seeing you at future conferences.
Thank you so much.
Eddy Shoop: I really appreciate you having me.

November 5, 2025November 5, 2025

Review: Colorado Psychedelic Cup 2025

By Joe Moore

You don’t usually walk into a wedding venue and see tables filled with mushrooms, grow bags, cactus cuttings, and chromatograms. But that’s exactly what greeted visitors at Baldoria on the Water in Lakewood, where the Psychedelic Club of Denver held the 2025 Colorado Psychedelic Cup. The event felt like a mix of science fair, farmers’ market, and a celebration of a growing culture.

The venue was beautiful, with a lakeside courtyard glowing in autumn sunlight. People relaxed and talked about extraction methods and alkaloid profiles. It didn’t feel like a typical competition, but more like a meeting place for Colorado’s psychedelic community. Booths featured mycology supplies, art, growers, and educators. Beyond the busy marketplace, there was a shared sense of curiosity, respect for plants and fungi, and a growing focus on quality, safety, and science.

From Curiosity to Calibration

Science was at the heart of the Cup. Tryptomics, a lab based in Longmont, Colorado, handled all the sample testing for judging. They processed hundreds of entries, including psilocybin mushrooms, mescaline cacti, and DMT-containing root bark, measuring compounds that were once illegal. Their work turned what could have been a casual contest into a real experiment in gathering data together.

Tryptomics representatives talked about their growing database, which now has over six thousand psychedelic samples. With so much data, they can start to see patterns, such as how potency varies by species, substrate, or drying method, how minor alkaloids appear alongside psilocybin, and what consistency looks like as the market matures.

One category exemplified this new rigor: consistency across edible units. To qualify, each unit from the same batch — whether chocolate or gummy — had to test within a fairly narrow margin of variance. Entries with wider swings were disqualified. It might sound technical, but this is the kind of quality-control thinking that could someday shape clinical standards or small-batch regulation.

There was also the “Most Medium” award, a playful prize for the sample closest to the median psilocybin potency. It showed that the community still has a sense of humor and humility, even as it becomes more advanced.

The Human Mycelium

What stood out to me most that day wasn’t the data, but the people. The Denver psychedelic scene has grown from a few meetups into a thriving community of growers, harm-reduction advocates, educators, and inventors. They come not just to compete, but to connect.

One of the most inspiring talks was from a woman who runs a coat drive using mushrooms. She grows mushrooms, teaches others how, and trades cultures and harvests for warm coats to give out in winter. Her project is more than creative mutual aid; it’s a real example of how this movement can be practical, caring, and give back.

Later in the evening, Max Montrose, a respected scholar of psychoactive botany, spoke about his work with lesser-known cactus species. At his booth, he showed a new specimen, a variant that he recently discovered of a popular type of mescaline-containing cactus. He also confirmed that a previously untested cactus species does, in fact, contain mescaline, thanks to Tryptomics, which tested a sample he submitted. Max’s dedication has led to new discoveries in botany, made possible by the freedom to work in Colorado. He believes we are experiencing a new revolution in understanding psychoactive plants.

Max Montrose showing his new variant cactus.

Community in Bloom

The event had its challenges. The vendor hall was noisy, making it tough to hear some speakers. Talks scheduled during busy vending times competed for attention. In a way, these flaws reflected the culture itself: lively, decentralized, and a little chaotic. I actually helped with the soundboard a few times when audio problems came up later in the evening.

The variety of styles at the event was impressive. One vendor sold mushroom grow bags designed to look like the Scooby-Doo Mystery Machine, complete with mushrooms sprouting from the roof. Others offered chocolates and gummies so carefully made they looked like high-end treats from a SoHo gallery. The mix of art, data, and stories showed a new psychedelic economy forming, one that values transparency and skill as much as potency.

Art and Advocacy: The Mexican Mycologist’s Tale

One of the day’s most memorable presenters called himself “The Mexican Mycologist.” He brought creativity and a bit of rebellion, sharing how he grows psilocybin mushrooms on unusual things like old boots, fast-food containers, chip bags, and even hats. His slideshow was a fun example of the creativity and resourcefulness in the psychedelic community.

But his story also pointed to a bigger problem: ongoing social media censorship. In solidarity with Psychedelics Today and others, he explained how his accounts on Instagram, Reddit, and other platforms have been taken down many times. He’s now on his eighth Instagram account, showing the persistence needed to keep sharing knowledge in a space that often resists psychedelic education.

His presence showed not only creativity but also advocacy within the community. It reminded everyone that while events like the Psychedelic Cup celebrate progress, they also bring attention to the ongoing fight for visibility and free expression in the psychedelic world.

The Awards and the Art of Precision

When the award ceremony started, it felt more like a community gathering than a competition. Awards covered many categories, including highest and lowest psilocybin content, most visually appealing product, largest mushroom by weight, and best mescaline extraction. There were also awards for unusual and mutated varieties, such as the “blobs” like Enigma, which have unique shapes (morphology), unlike typical mushrooms.

What brought everything together was a shared interest in details. Even in categories like “best design,” people wondered how to balance creativity with scientific accuracy. The growers and extractors weren’t just seeking recognition; they wanted to better understand and improve psychedelic materials.

It’s easy to forget how groundbreaking this is. In a field where most research still happens in labs or universities, citizen-science events like this Cup fill an important gap. They create decentralized data based on real experiences and open participation, which researchers can later use to explore new ideas. And possibly supply researchers with under-explored molecules that could yield amazing medical discoveries.

Beyond the Spores

Tryptomics also tested DMT and mescaline, measuring their levels in Mimosa hostilis root bark and different cactus species. This might seem specialized, but it helps bring substances that were once secret or part of folklore into clearer understanding. When people know the potency and purity, they can use these materials with more respect and less guesswork.

One of the most interesting things I learned was that there were medals for some secondary molecules—compounds related to, but different from, the known active ingredients. These minor alkaloids might affect experiences in ways science hasn’t yet explained. Real-world data on them could inform future studies and deepen our understanding of the complexity of these substances, moving beyond the idea of a single “magic molecule.” FWIW, I think psilocybin and psilocin are fine on their own.

Gratitude and Grounding

As the sun set behind the foothills and the awards ended, the mood became warm and reflective, like a mix between a reunion and a quiet moment. Old friends hugged, vendors packed up, and people stayed by the water. I told a friend it felt like we were entering the next chapter of Colorado’s psychedelic story.

Events like this succeed because of the people who make them happen. I’m deeply grateful to the Psychedelic Club of Denver for organizing such a thoughtful and welcoming event, and to Tryptomics for providing solid, transparent science. Together, they show what’s possible when curiosity and teamwork come together: a community that balances excitement with responsibility.

The Colorado Psychedelic Cup 2025 wasn’t about putting on a show. It proved that a local, community-led movement can create real data, true connections, and cultural respect. It celebrated what can happen when psychedelics are seen not as purely products or taboos, but as important topics for learning and discovery.

As I left Baldoria on the Water that evening, I felt thankful for the awards ceremony, the speakers, the data, the laughter, and the chance to watch this community learn to balance accuracy with kindness. In a world searching for meaning, that’s more valuable than any gold medal.

October 6, 2025December 3, 2025

MDMA-Assisted Therapy for the Wounded Healer: Help fund a pioneering study!

Ivar W. Goksøyr - MDMA-Assisted Therapy for Therapists

Start with the patterns many wounded healers know well: Parentified at home, helpers at work; old burdens resurface. We overfunction, detach, control, or rescue to manage our insecurities and the weight of responsibility. Beneath it sits guilt and shame of not reaching our patients in the ways we would like. Further down, our own original pains are hidden behind the role of a helper.

This upcoming two-part online training puts those themes on screen. A series of long, evocative video clips from an unfiltered MDMA-assisted therapy case of a wounded healer showcase a range of clinical phenomena and therapeutic attitudes and techniques in MDMA-assisted therapy. They also trigger self-reflection, sharpen interoceptive tracking, and bring you closer to your own patterns and preferences as a therapist.

Ready to deepen your skills and support cutting-edge research? Sign up for the two-part live training now!

Prior cohorts rated the format 4.84/5 across more than 260 reviews. It includes some basic learning on how to prepare, navigate, facilitate, and integrate MDMA-catalyzed states. What sets it apart is the wealth of authentic clinical footage and therapist-centered inquiry into wounded-healer dynamics. Importantly, by enrolling in this training, you also help fund the development of a pioneering protocol for Empathogen-Assisted Therapist Development (EATD).

What is empathogen-assisted therapist development?

EATD integrates MDMA-assisted therapy within a structured personal and professional development (PPD) framework. The protocol enrolls psychotherapists whose work involvement profiles indicate distress, disengagement, or overactivation. Over five months, participants complete three individual MDMA sessions nested in group-based preparation, dosing support, and integration. The design is intentional: it braids learning across personal and professional domains, fosters continuous reflection to ensure transfer into moment-to-moment clinical behavior, and ensures standardized safety and ethics. This is method-independent therapist development—aimed at the therapist variables most predictive of patients’ process and outcome.

Why this frontier matters now.

Mental health disorders impose high existential and financial costs. Solutions require better implementation of existing, evidence-based treatments, the development of new treatments, and the cultivation of more effective therapists. EATD touches all three dimensions, focusing primarily on the latter: By providing therapists firsthand experience with MDMA-AT in a group setting, this project addresses key challenges related to the optimal development and implementation of MDMA-AT as an emergent treatment. This includes providing therapists with a self-experience training module in a scalable group format, potentially enhancing both the quality and accessibility of safe and ethical care. However, its primary innovation and focus lie in integrating MDMA-AT within a broader personal and professional development (PPD) framework for method-independent therapist development. As such, this project pioneers a new frontier in therapist training, Empathogen-Assisted Therapist Development (EATD).

Pioneering deeper ways to assist therapists in developing their intrapersonal and interpersonal capacities is important, as the center of gravity in the psychotherapy research field has shifted from “Which method works best?” to “Which therapist is in the room?” Evidence-based relationships instead of evidence-based methods, since research clearly shows that therapist effects outsize method effects. Yet training systems still underweight therapists’ personal growth.

Converging evidence from early pioneers, retrospective reports, preclinical studies, modern experimental research, and a range of clinical trials points to the potential for MDMA to act as a catalyst for trust, introspection, psychotherapeutic processing, new learning, and ultimately for a deeper connection with oneself and others (Stocker & Liechti, 2024). Psychedelics are often viewed as nonspecific amplifiers that deepen access to unconscious material, enabling study of the psychological currents shaping experience and behavior in ways few tools match. Precisely because psychotherapy demands high levels of self-awareness and integration to navigate intense affect and complex relational dynamics, psychedelics may be uniquely suited to support therapists’ own self-exploration and healing.

How does this training contribute?

This training advances EATD on two fronts. First, it provides funding for further protocol development. Second, it provides a demonstration: the workshop operationalizes the EATD principle with a concrete wounded-healer case presented with clinical granularity.

You will see how fear attenuation and oxytocin-mediated safety enable direct contact with unresolved, embodied feelings. How protective compulsions are recognized rather than rationalized. The documented downstream effects seem practical: a rapid drop in previously unconscious anxiety and defensive overfunctioning in sessions; less exhaustion; more receptivity, exact presence; cleaner timing; and renewed embodiment of Rogers’ core conditions—authenticity, empathy, and unconditional positive regard. The endpoint is not an exalted experience. It is a more relaxed and authentic presence with fewer unseen drivers, more trust in the client’s healing forces, and greater enjoyment.

The format of this training matters. Real footage compresses learning cycles. Role-plays rarely reproduce the somatic signature of actual therapy. Participant reports from earlier cohorts converge on the view that this training indeed was a profound, both personal and professional experience. The high ratings reflect a combination of evocative material and analytic clarity. The outcome is both inspiration and usable learning.

The presenter, Ivar W. Goksøyr, is a clinical psychologist and founder of Psykologvirke. Within MDMA-assisted therapy, he has participated as a client, therapist, assistant trainer, researcher, and educator, including roles in the world’s first MDMA/depression trial. He integrates empathogen work with psychotherapy process science and ongoing ketamine-assisted therapy implementation at his clinic. This training is independent of MAPS.

The field needs disciplined exposure to reality-level clinical processes and a credible pathway for developing therapists who are safer, steadier, and more effective. Empathogen-Assisted Therapist Development may be one such pathway. This workshop both illustrates the principle and helps fund the protocol work required to move from a promising concept to an operational standard.

Enroll now for the two-part live training, secure your seat, and direct a portion of your fee to EATD protocol development. Commit, show up, and translate this material into a cleaner presence and safer, more effective therapy.

October 6, 2025October 9, 2025

Ivar Goksøyr — Wounded Healers, Inner Intelligence & Bringing MDMA Training to Mainstream Care

Recorded October 1

In this candid, practice-focused conversation, Joe is joined by Norwegian psychologist and researcher Ivar Goksøyr to explore how therapists’ own healing journeys can measurably improve client outcomes—and why MDMA-assisted experiences, used thoughtfully, may be a uniquely powerful catalyst for professional development. Ivar shares lessons from Norway’s psychedelic research team (PTSD and the world’s first MDMA-for-depression trial), his clinic Psykologvirke in Oslo, and his online course, “The Wounded Healer,” which uses authentic footage from his FDA-approved MAPS volunteer MDMA sessions to illuminate real clinical processes, countertransference, and the “inner healing intelligence” as a working metaphor rather than dogma.

The discussion ranges from implementation realities (laws, ethics, and conservative regulatory cultures) to the pragmatic: how an MDMA experience helped Ivar resolve chronic anxiety reactions in the therapy chair, reduced burn-out, increased receptivity, and improved attunement—changes he believes many clinicians can cultivate when personal growth is prioritized alongside methods training. He outlines a developing collaboration with the University of Oslo on Empathogen-Assisted Therapies Development—not to “dose for certification,” but to support therapists’ self-awareness and resilience in legally sanctioned research contexts.

They also compare compounds: why MDMA may be easier to integrate into mainstream psychiatry than classic tryptamines (fewer projective processes, more biographical focus, smoother affect regulation), while acknowledging the immense promise—and higher demands—of psilocybin and other psychedelics. Throughout, they emphasize humility, guardrails, and the need to keep learning as the field scales (with frank reflections on ketamine’s mixed rollout and avoiding idealization/devaluation cycles).

Highlights

Why therapist factors often outweigh modality—and how personal work translates into better outcomes.
Using real session video (with Ivar as participant) to normalize vulnerability, illuminate process, and train pattern recognition.
Regulatory and ethical nuances of self-experience in training; building consensus before policy change.
Inner healing intelligence as a clinical metaphor aligned with Rogers, Rank, and psychodynamic concepts (unconscious therapeutic alliance).
MDMA vs. classic psychedelics for implementation; sequencing with ketamine in public systems.
Global classroom: 270+ clinicians from every continent; course structure centered on reflection, discussion, and live analysis.

Training Dates

November 2 & 9 (two consecutive Sundays, 3 hours each, online). Interactive, footage-driven, method-agnostic—useful whether or not you practice psychedelic therapy.

If you’re a clinician interested in deeper self-work to strengthen your therapeutic presence, this episode offers a grounded path forward—equal parts inspiration, ethics, and hands-on learning.

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] I think yeah. Hi everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. Joe Moore here joined by Eva. Eva, how are you today?
Ivar Goksøyr : Pretty good, thank you. Thank you. How about yourself?
Joe Moore: Oh, I’m doing lovely, beautiful Autumn day here. It’s a peak foliage in the mountains of Colorado right now. Mm-hmm. It’s glorious, glorious beautiful.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, I think I’m fully recovered from Burning Man. Um, so
Ivar Goksøyr : it’s like a month ago or something. Oh my gosh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It takes a long time emotionally, at least it’s,
Joe Moore: yeah. So I’m excited to talk today. You’ve been up to some really interesting things around advocating for new forms of, um, I guess new additions to, uh, MDMA psychotherapy training and, um. Yeah, can you give us like a high, high level overview of, of what these changes are and then we can [00:01:00] start talking about you.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, sure. So, you know, I’m a member of the psychedelic research team here in Norway, and we’ve done a couple of MDMA studies, one on PTSD and the world’s first on MDMA for depression. And then I’m also running an online, uh, training in MDMA assisted therapy, uh, and the wounded Healer, that’s what it’s called.
Ivar Goksøyr : And. In this training, I show authentic, uh, footage from my own MDMA sessions and, uh, focusing in on, on, uh, the professional development I gained from the personal growth, from the trauma healing I experienced as part of that, uh, uh, MDMA, uh, therapy. Uh, uh, so, and, and building on those experiences, how, how much that MDMA therapy helped me in, in my role as a therapist.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also reading up on other literature and, and looking into that this is, you know, something that so many people report. We’re in the process now, uh, incorporation with the University of Oslo to set up an EM Pathogen Assisted Therapies Development project. So, uh, not, uh, giving [00:02:00] MDMA, uh, to therapists to train them as MDMA therapist, but to, uh, help them with their professional growth.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through personal growth. So that’s the main, uh, project that I’m leading right now, and that I hope that we can, uh, you know, get some attention to, and maybe some more funding from, from our conversation today.
Joe Moore: That’s, you know, amazing. Uh, it’s like, so. Uh, needed in so many ways. And, you know, it’s, it’s the general conventional wisdom.
Joe Moore: Um, and so to be clear, you are, you, you used footage from your session, so it’s you on the videotapes.
Ivar Goksøyr : That’s right. So I’m the patient and I’m also kind of the, uh, the host, uh, analyzing my own, uh, experiences as a, as a patient in, um, this is also important to say from a legal trial, FDA approved trial, uh, healthy volunteers.
Ivar Goksøyr : So it was part of my training, uh, to be in maps, uh, therapist. So [00:03:00] yes, so, uh, so a range of clinical phenomenon will be shown and, and you get to show, you know, uh, how MDMA therapy is delivered and you get the benefit from looking at live, uh, photos. And, uh, and then also we keep the focus on themes that is probably relevant for, if not.
Ivar Goksøyr : Most wounded healers, uh, because, you know, most of us come into this strange profession. You know, while most people would like to have other people’s pain at a, you know, at a certain distance, there are some of us that really seeks to, you know, get closer to, to transform it. And most often that’s because we’ve been, uh, forced to, you know, traverse certain complex emotional terrains from we were kids and many of us have.
Ivar Goksøyr : Taken on certain roles, and, and I believe that, uh, we are very much triggered on some of the core wounds, uh, at a daily basis in our jobs. And of course, we, we all, this is nothing new and we all work on those things. [00:04:00] Uh, but many of us, myself included, even though a lot of supervision and therapy is really helpful and you get, uh, you know, uh, more consciousness on some issues you have, and you also overcome some obstacles, then it is hard to change these more ingrained patterns.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, MDMA known as a catalyst for therapy just stands to reason that it might help, uh, us as, uh, therapists as well as patients. Of course.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So let’s, let’s kind of talk about your professional path. How, how did you kind of take this professional route and end up, um, curious about MDMA and, and, uh, seemingly passionate about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, so, you know, ever, I would say since I was a kid, I, I kind of had this perspective that I, I don’t know, most, most children have maybe a close connection with the light. And I grew up and watched the adults in my life and they seem to be suffering and they seem to not understand their own or [00:05:00] each other suffering.
Ivar Goksøyr : And they were judging each other. So I felt from an early age that there was so much unnecessary suffering going on, and I was kind of shocked that they couldn’t see how beautiful things could be in this world in a way. And so when I started my psychology studies, I was always more interested in the transformative changes instead of symptom management, uh, which is also important.
Ivar Goksøyr : I was always looking for the more depth oriented work. Did my specialization in, uh, in terms of short term psychodynamic therapy. Basically psychoanalytic theory, but with a more humanistic core and a more active approach. And I was very pleased, you know, to be able, uh, with more experience, more training, more self-healing, to reach more people, more deeply.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I got this confirmation that, yeah, this deep transformative healing is possible. However, I also experienced how extremely difficult it can be to release this inherent potential. So, [00:06:00] and the, the more I could help some people deeply, the more it hurt to not be able still to help the majority of my patients that deeply to see the potential and feel helpless.
Ivar Goksøyr : So searching for new strategies and then, you know, a couple of patients told me about psychedelic experiences and then somebody close to me, um, uh, came forth and that’s when I started to really dig in and open up. And, and then when you see all the literature and, and this whole tradition and wisdom tradition that is buried underneath all the stigma, then I really knew that we were onto something important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s how it started.
Joe Moore: Yeah. That’s amazing. And, um, I, I assume, and I don’t want to, well actually tell, tell me this, I, from what I understand, the um. The culture in Scandinavian nations is a little bit conservative around drugs generally in a lot of countries, like UK for instance, MDMA was everywhere, United States, it was very common.
Joe Moore: Um, [00:07:00] but is it, was that somewhat similar, uh, for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, for sure there’s always been an underground scene under rave scene. Uh, but yes, I mean, it’s quite different from like Colorado where you’re at, for example. So I think I, I, I am not sure, but I think that maybe the, the rate of people that has tried MDMA now is around 5% or something.
Ivar Goksøyr : I believe it’s around 20 in the us So, so there’s a big difference in the baseline levels and their attitudes, uh, for sure. Uh, but you know, this, the medicalization track that we’re on here in Norway has really helped, uh, to change public perception these last few 10 years. Um, since I started getting involved.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, yeah, it’s definitely opening up and, you know, more and more, you know, other others and, and, uh, psychologists and even, not yet any doctors, but people come out of the psychedelic closet and speaks openly. So, and that’s kind quite new, I would say. Um, it’s just a handful [00:08:00] of people have done it, but it, it’s quite impactful still, so, yeah.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. That’s, that’s important to know. 5% to 20%. Um, it’s really a big, big shift. So in terms of, um, like were there any kind of organizations where you were paying, paying attention to, were you paying attention to maps in the early days as that was coming along and was that kinda influential for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, yeah, sure. As, uh, as soon as I started ReadUP, uh, of course maps is, is what, what’s what stands out in the MDMA therapy field. So they’ve been incredibly important and they were also our collaborators, uh, on our first trial, uh, and made it also, then we gained experience that we could create our own investigator trial here.
Ivar Goksøyr : So they’ve been really important to us, for sure.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, have you received any kind of pushback in your interest in [00:09:00] developing, um, MDMA assisted psychotherapy and also, you know, for therapist to improve therapists?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, you know, I mean there’s, uh, there’s been a lot of pushback. I mean, when, back in 2017, my first, uh, psychedelic conference in Oakland, and when I started speaking publicly here in Norway, I mean, my friends took me aside and asked me if I knew what I was doing, like this career suicide, uh, thoughts and, and of course I think, uh, yeah, most people had a very, you know, stigmatizing view on, on what we were up to.
Ivar Goksøyr : But I think also there is a certain, you know, a an intellectual, uh, honesty and openness. Uh, so if you can show some numbers and you can show that you’re serious and you, you know, your intention is right and you, it comes from the right place, and that you’re not an activist, uh, pushing things, uh, because you have your [00:10:00] own agenda and preferences, but that you’re actually, um, looking into exploring this in a, in a very vigorous way, then that gains respect for sure.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I think, uh, we’ve, you know, we’ve been able to gain that respect, uh, as, as, uh, you know, um, a serious, uh, we’re, we’re in a serious endeavor here. And when this idea of the, um, pathogen assisted therapy therapies development has been launched, there has really not been that much pushback, uh, I must say. Uh, however, we, we, the first university program in psychedelic, uh, therapy, uh, was, uh, just launched and the plan was to have ketamine as a self experience.
Ivar Goksøyr : Part of that program, uh, that got shut down, uh, of legal reasons, uh, by the health authorities, uh, since there was no legal way to actually do that. So that will probably be a, a longer process to, to gain the necessary, uh, knowledge to understand that this might be a fruitful thing to do. So, but within [00:11:00] clinical studies, it is, uh, totally legitimate.
Joe Moore: That’s interesting. And yeah, there’s probably all sorts of permission. We have a similar structure and issue here in the United States with experience with ketamine. Uh, physicians will prescribe for things like adjustment disorder or, you know, a lot of people legitimately have depression, so for their experiential component on their training, um, they can do things like that uhhuh, but I see how like integrating that with the university would be really hard and you’d need special permission.
Joe Moore: So
Ivar Goksøyr : do you need the diagnosis to be able to get the Ketamine as part of the training?
Joe Moore: Yeah, Uhhuh generally so, but there’s usually a doctor on staff that kind of understands that most people have conditions that would benefit from it. At least one or two doses. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we’re actually addressing clinical benefit, not experience, which is interesting ’cause I like, I do like the idea of giving somebody the experience of the drug despite clinical situation, their clinical status.
Joe Moore: So it’s [00:12:00] complicated though. Regulators are gonna have, you know, I guess their job is to be very conservative.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I mean, first of all, do no harm and, uh, you know, it’s possible, totally possible to respect that and, and to follow the laws that society has laid down and, and, and all that. So I really think just takes time to build up the consensus, uh, in, in the, in the field of psychiatry.
Ivar Goksøyr : And when that is reached, then we can approach the politicians and health bureaucrats and, and make, uh, um, you know, new laws.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. New allowances, licenses, permits. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that’ll be cool, and I’m glad you’re working on that. Um. So let’s dig into this training. This training comes up in about a month.
Joe Moore: What, um, what made you want to develop this program?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so, um, you know, as, uh, therapists, uh, we don’t get to see a lot of the, that other therapists do. I mean, if you’re [00:13:00] co-therapist, yes, but individually you don’t get to see much. And, you know, throughout training, um, there is little also focus on personal development.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s really, uh, under underweight in, uh, professional, uh, development programs. And this is quite serious because what the psychotherapy research is showing now is that, you know, the, the person as a therapist is much more important for patient process and outcome than what method is being applied. So now, instead of studying which method is most effective, because all seem to be more or less equally effective with nuances.
Ivar Goksøyr : Then, uh, we look into what are the relationship qualities that, uh, that could be called evidence-based. So research is showing therapies as a person is really important, but training, uh, as a general rule and estimates, uh, uh, uh, personal growth. And so I, I just saw when I, what happened for me was that I, I [00:14:00] discovered in that MD MA therapy, you know, I went to the route basically of my, of my interpersonal adversities leading me to become a psychology psychologist in the first place.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, you know, I, instead of as a kid, I, I hid, uh, you know, behind this role as a helper and I, nobody kind of tuned into me where I were at. So I developed the ability to find people where they were. And that was also, uh, you know, an epiphany to understand that this was also, you know, out of compassion.
Ivar Goksøyr : But also, you know, because, uh, I needed contact, so a way to avoid being alone. So that’s when I realized, oh, how deeply dependent I was upon my own patience, you know, that I, basically, it was part of my own needs for contact and, uh, you know, and, and also how dependent I was upon a certain progress in their therapy.
Ivar Goksøyr : Like how much [00:15:00] responsibility I felt and, uh, how much I took on. And I, I had this soreness in my, uh, solar plexus, um, more or less, uh, like in most therapy sessions. So when my day at the office was over, I, I really felt a certain level of exhaustion and, and I had this soreness and, you know, uh. Basically overworking.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and the more insecure I was, the more control I did, the more I did, you know? And, and then, uh, the MDMA showed me the little kid, you know, classic inner child work into the boy underneath this role as a helper. And all the fear that I had built in my body, uh, came out, you know, in shivering and neuro neurogenic shivering and stuff.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, and all the pain underneath that, uh, like body armor came. And, um, and there was a lot of linking and understanding. And, and when I got back into my therapy chair, I was surprised really to notice that there [00:16:00] were no anxiety reactions in my body anymore. So, you know, those old feelings of pain and fear, they had been triggered on a daily basis in therapy sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : I didn’t know that. I wasn’t aware it was unconscious. I had just felt this unease, you know, and I had noticed that I was a bit stressed out and I, I had been working really hard, so. When I had this ability to sit unfunded, uh, I wasn’t afraid anymore, uh, because I, I had, you know, released a lot of the feelings that had created this anxiety.
Ivar Goksøyr : I had also experienced this deep inner healing forces, the inner healing intelligence or self-organized with, or, or whatever you would like to call it. So, uh, I could trust that force in the patient much more. Uh, and I could, uh, you know, take much less responsibility. And I was much less driven by my own anxiety and my own need to regulate my own feelings and needs and sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, [00:17:00] and what happened then, of course, is that the patient led the process better and I was much more receptive. So when my body was more relaxed, I could work much more intuitively and, and take in and react much more adequately. And I’m, I am. Pretty sure I can only compare like from before and after and, you know, no systematic observations, but, uh, I know a hundred percent sure that my wellbeing went up a lot.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and I enjoyed my work much more. And I’m sure also that at least, uh, substantial proportion of my patients, I mean, I was effective with some patients before as well, but a substantial proportion of my patients also are doing better, um, in therapy. So, so it felt really important to see this, you know, this potential and yeah, uh, I saw it as a really good way to, to, um, you know, to heal the healers.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, as Marina Sabina said, you are the medicine. Uh, and so [00:18:00] if we can heal the, you know, the therapist, then we can really reach a lot of people, uh, more deeply. So, yeah. So a good way to spread more healing to, to many people.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I think a funny and interesting analogy is the holotropic breathwork training model where you have to actually do a lot of your own work before you’re approved to do the sessions.
Joe Moore: And that, you know, there’s, I guess in the old psychoanalysis frame, multiple years of psychoanalysis before you could do it, so. Mm-hmm. You know, not that they necessarily got a lot of training, they got a lot of insight, um, you know, um, yeah,
Ivar Goksøyr : sure.
Joe Moore: So, yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Go ahead. I really thi uh, yeah, I really think it’s, you know, the, the methods that goes more deeply into the unconscious layers of the psyche.
Ivar Goksøyr : There, there’s always been, uh, a demand that the practitioner has his own, you know, a meditation teacher has his, his own meditation practice. Of course, the psychoanalyst have, has [00:19:00] had his own psychoanalysis, of course. So that need might be, uh, lesser with more symptom oriented, uh, methods. But, you know, psychedelics, they go deep and, uh, yeah, I mean, most people would, even though there are no hard, really good evidence like.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through randomized controlled data supporting that claim. I think, uh, most clinicians would, would agree that therapist self-awareness is incredibly important. And also to have felt how these different methods and, and techniques and attitudes, uh, are experienced, uh, from the inside. Um, so the is quite clear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, of course there are some pitfalls as well. You can, if you have like one strong, for example, psychedelic self-experience, and then you can, you know, over generalize from your own experience and accept other people to have similar experiences. Why? The truth is that they are very different. And I mean, I think also something that I [00:20:00] see sometimes in, in psychedelic, you know, in the psychedelic sphere is that people might have really strong healing experiences and they’re true, uh, uh, but it cannot sometimes lead people to think that they’re more healed than they are in, in reality that there are so many layers.
Ivar Goksøyr : But it can kind of, some, some people can have a certain narcissistic response maybe, or now I gained so much power and I have so, so much, uh, depth knowledge of myself in the psyche, so now I can go out. So, uh, some, there are some pitfalls, but, uh, you know, I, I cause also an, an article, a model curriculum for psychedelic, uh, training.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, it is a strong recommendation, uh, not a mandatory, um, thing, but to have self experience as part of training programs. Uh, so the consensus is pretty clear.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, um, yeah, the consensus is so clear and it’s just so [00:21:00] frustrating that we have to still kind of like figure out how to convince regulatory groups.
Joe Moore: Um, I think, um, can you talk about what kind of data they’ve liked to see? What kind of data was helpful? To present to regulators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so we, we haven’t, uh, we haven’t done that yet. Uh, uh, I, I. Well, I, I, and if I should, you know, make a guess, uh, you know, anything that can actually, uh, provide a link, uh, at least to a proxy that, you know, you, you do something here.
Ivar Goksøyr : You give yourself experience, and then you can see that it actually helps the patients. And that’s, that’s, I think that’s a bridge that is really hard to make because there are so many variables in play. And then, as I said, also from my own experience, uh, I, you know, it’s reasonable to think that, say if you have countertransference issues, uh, some, some people, and I had like some chronic counter [00:22:00] transference issues that came up independently of who the patient was.
Ivar Goksøyr : And that’s true for many of us. But some of us also have, you know, we’re very effective with, with, uh, many patients. But then there are these few that triggers us in ways that we still are not able to, to really, uh, grasp or handle in a, in a therapeutic way. And for, for this. Particular patients, uh, it, it’ll be important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and it’s very difficult and it’s very, uh, you know, costly to, to kind of prove those links. However, I, I do have a certain hope that, you know, combining MDMA with other therapist development, uh, methods and start to explore and start to, you know, find, you know, look at a lot of subgroup analysis and looking at moderating variables, and maybe we can, in the future at some point, see that for, for these therapists, this intervention, MDMA, enhanced [00:23:00] therapies development is actually helpful for the outcomes of, of, of this subset of patients.
Ivar Goksøyr : I think that that can be, uh, reasonable, but it’ll be a, a way, and I I also think, you know, if there is consensus in, in a, in a field, in a, in a, in the medical field that this, we believe this is important and there are a lot of. You know, a good argument can be made. I think that should be sufficient as well.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Right. It is a pretty safe drug. It’s really, well, you know, regarded in terms of clinical effects, so that that plus the consensus, like let’s just hope. We can, you know, put together the data we need to make this happen. I, I’m really, really excited. Um, so how many times have you taught your training so far?
Ivar Goksøyr : So, I, I, maybe it’s five times now. So I’ve had like, uh, around 270 people through, um, and it’s been quite well, uh, uh, [00:24:00] received. Uh, people are talking about how they embark on a self-reflective journey and that they can really, uh, you know, have a lot of recognition in, in what they see. And the, you know, it’s something with watching these unfiltered, uh, scenes with these really deep emotions as A-M-D-M-A or a psychedelic therapist, you know, that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also other emotion, experiential focused therapies that, you know, the, when these unfiltered emotions come out, it really touches our own strings and puts them in motion as well. Uh, so it can really be, um, you know, some, some therapy as well in there. Uh, uh, if you let it, if you want it, and if not, uh, it’ll still be, uh, interesting to, you know, look into, you know, how this, uh, actually can look in real life.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also to look at some quite experienced therapists, uh, working with me.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. That’s great. Can you share a little bit about some of your [00:25:00] collaborators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. So, you know, I’m, I’m the founder of Psychologic, which is a mental health clinic here in Oslo. We are 30, uh, affiliated psychologists, and we have this, uh, cooperation with, uh, uh, the academy clinic here, the leading KE clinic, axon Clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so we’re implementing Ketamine now. So the Axon Clinic is really important for that clinical work we do. And then we also have the hospital, uh, in Ville, uh, which is a county in Norway. Uh, that’s where the psychedelic research team is. So they will be a collaborator on this study. Uh, hopefully it’s not like formally anchored yet.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then you have the University of Oslo where the Institute of Psychology, uh, still not, uh, anything signed or formally anchored, but we’ve had a series of meeting and, uh, the, the right people there wanted to happen. So, um, we just need, uh, of course we need to finalize the grant proposals and project descriptions and, uh, and get the funding.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and then, then, you know, we’ll hopefully let, uh, hopefully gonna let it fly. [00:26:00]
Joe Moore: Hmm. This is really interesting. Yeah. Um, so having that kind of network and affiliation broadly, it, it seems like really prestigious groups and I, I just love that it’s kind of, you know, coming together as if it will be a real project and, and hopefully get real funding and move it all forward.
Joe Moore: So thanks for your efforts there. Um, yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the science funding ecosystem a little friendlier? So like, I think I only know of a few psychedelic programs in the United States that have received federal funding. Um, yeah. Like would, would science funding, um, for you come from at the national level, or would it be like bigger institutions?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so we, we broke through a glass roof there a few years ago, getting the first governmental grant for the MDMA depression study. And then, uh, we got, uh, quite a big grant, uh, from the health authorities again for ketamine study. [00:27:00] Uh, so, uh, yeah, we have had two, uh, two major wins there. And then we’ve also had money from Nors Nors Skin Mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s a Swedish foundation for a second md, a depression study in young adults. And that’s also where I, I’m, we’re seeking our primary funds for this, uh, pathogen assisted therapist training in addition to my s founding some, uh, or funding, some of it, uh, half of my PhD money, uh, can be funded from my clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then, uh, there’s a research council in Norway that I will apply for. For rest of the PhD funding. And then this, uh, training is also helping to, to fund further protocol development and, and get it going.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, yeah. Amazing. So are people back to your training now? Are people from around the world taking your training or is it purely Scandinavian folks?
Joe Moore: Yes,
Ivar Goksøyr : yes. So we’ve had, you know, [00:28:00] Australians, Indian people, we had people from South America, you know, South Africa, uh, all across, uh, states and Canada and Europe. So, and we always start with, uh, greeting each other, hello in our mother tongue. So that’s a cacophony of people from around the world. So it’s really a, a nice international, uh, flavor to it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so I’m very pleased to, to be able to, uh, to bring, to bring that to the world and to bring people together. It’s also inspiring to see how many people, uh, are passionate about this. We also have, you know, plenty of time to have interactions and ask questions. Um, so that’s also, uh, uh, good to have some of that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, yeah,
Joe Moore: outstanding and, um. Can you talk about a little bit about what, what it’s like to actually show your own videos? Like that has to be a little emotional. Yeah. Kind of a big deal, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I [00:29:00] mean, you know, the first time I, I looked into the tapes and they’re quite, you know, they’re, you know, what they say about MBMA, uh, therapy’s, it’s not a no no gay, no pain situation.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, know a lot of the times, and we see it in the MDMA depression trial as well, people have this really affirmative positive experiences reconnecting with love and clarity and, you know, have to have some people have positive feelings in their body for the first time in years, you know, and so some of those clips are really, you know, filled with humor and affirmations and really celebration of life.
Ivar Goksøyr : But then you also, you know, the, the higher you can go the, the deeper you tend to be able to go and vice versa. And, and there are really some really painful. Expressions. There’s, they’re also, so before I showed it, the first time I, I showed it to my wife and I was really curious, what am I doing? And this is this weird.
Ivar Goksøyr : Am I just, you know, being pathetic. Well, even though I knew this is, this is honest, it’s raw, [00:30:00] it’s me. And, and it was important. And it, and it, I think it will be important for a lot of people to be able to watch it because I think it normalizes, you know, it’s not only MDMAs, it’s a therapy or psychedelic therapy that is stigmatized.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, the healer’s own wounding is also somewhat stigmatized. Uh, you know, uh, it’s not that easy. I mean, it’s getting better. I mean, culture might, might differ, but. To really talk openly about the wounding. And it’s, it can be a lot of pride also in US therapists, you know, going into this role. And even though we sometimes may feel like hypocrites, we don’t want other people to, to see that we are very, you know, very human.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, as I say in NS is a therapist’s about, you know, getting the patient in touch with their inner healer. And if we also, through this training and other, of course, uh, things can, the therapist can get in touch with their inner patient, uh, and heal that, I think, I think then, then you will be able to go even further.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, [00:31:00] uh, but as my wife watched, uh, those, some of those first, most emotional clips and, and I saw how touched she she was and how, how, you know, how, uh, how much compassion she, uh, that was elicited in her than I, I got that necessary, you know, confidence to, to, to show it also to broader audience. But yeah, I must admit that I was quite.
Ivar Goksøyr : I, I was clear that I, I will need you guys to, to give some feedback after this. And I mean, these, it’s like five or six years, uh, since I had these sessions. So it’s very well integrated. Um, that’s also important. So, uh, you know, so I say that I have no need for you to kind of protect me or anything, but, uh, this silence afterwards is, uh, is not something so please, and, and of course, just, you know, uh, as, as in psychedelic therapy and as a therapist to just pay close attention to your own [00:32:00] reactions when you watch these clips.
Ivar Goksøyr : One thing is the technical aspects and, and that meta perspective. And another thing is just tuning into what is going on on the, on the deeper levels in the patient and in you. How the patient is a mirror on processes inside of you. And that’s something that we focus a lot of in the, in the course and it tends to, tends to be quite helpful.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, uh, but it has, it has been really gratifying, I must say, because universally, uh, you know, uh, the ra the ratings has been 4.84 stars, uh, from 270 reviews out of five stars studies. So. I also do a lot of lecturing, uh, in other contexts than this course in, in universities and, and psychedelic therapy programs.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and in these teachings I tend to show a, a few more, more short, shorter clips. And, and yeah, I think also there is a, a need and a, and a also a certain kind of hunger for being able to actually look at authentic [00:33:00] clinical footage, uh, in training.
Joe Moore: Right? I think, um, a huge portion of the maps, MDMA training is kind of, you know, pausing and playing and pausing and discussing and, and things like that.
Joe Moore: And I think that’s really helpful. Um, especially given we just can’t do it. Um, so mm-hmm. You know? Absolutely. I think even if we could do it, the video analysis and commentary would be really helpful. Um, yep. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good way to learn. I hope in time we can do that with a lot more psychedelics too.
Joe Moore: Um mm-hmm. There’s very serious differences in how somebody would show up under DMT and Iboga and whatever else, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. No, I, I think that’s key, uh, to, to, to, to build up the video libraries in training, for training purposes is certain, certainly something that I would aim for.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: Um, so could we [00:34:00] spend a little bit of time talking about inner healer stuff? Um, this is a, it’s a complicated topic, at least in America. I don’t know if it’s complicated elsewhere, but I, you know, we, we in our world, frame it as the body knows how to heal. Most of the time we have to set the container properly so that it can, um, and I don’t know how that’s like, um.
Joe Moore: So you’ve, you’ve probably heard the, um, accusations, right? This is cult thinking that there’s some inner healer out there. How do you like to think about it or how do you like to talk about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so, uh, yeah, I’m aware of the critic, you know, and the critics of this being more, having like a concept rooted in spiritual thinking and that it can also lead into this kind of exceptional thinking around psychedelics that somehow psychedelics show you the truth and somehow everything that comes up on psychedelics is inherently benign or [00:35:00] correct, or, and, and the only thing you need to do is you trust it and then ev and it, everything will turn out for the best.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um. And, uh, uh, I, and so I think it’s, uh, it’s an important concept that makes a lot of clinical sense and it has a lot of different names. Uh, but it needs to be seen as, uh, um, a metaphor, not like, uh, uh, you know, it’s not a separate entity or intelligence, but, uh, it is part of our nature and I think it makes a lot of sense to think of us as, uh, you know, we are nature, we are, uh, organic creatures, and the body for sure knows how to heal in many ways.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but sometimes it’s not able to heal itself either. And sometimes it can start attacking, uh, itself. And the psychic can also, you know, uh, attack itself. Uh, and, um. So I think it’s, it’s for sure an really important Ali, and it’s not a new concept. I mean, Carl Rogers, uh, [00:36:00] the principle of self-organizing wisdom, the, the, the therapist only needs to set this certain, you know, the congruence and the positive regard and empathy, the facilitative, uh, psychological factors for the patient’s self-organizing wisdom to take the lead and, and to lead to self transformation.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so it’s really a humanistic and, and beautiful concept, but it needs to be seen as a metaphor. And it’s also important to. You know, to acknowledge that these, uh, substances that, uh, has this great advantage of opening up the psyche, uh, in a faster, deeper way than many other methods, although you can open it as deeply with other methods and so forth.
Ivar Goksøyr : But this, this advantage is also the challenge with a method like the talent is also what can become problematic And, um, uh, and yeah, so, so, um. Uh, [00:37:00] I mean, you know, the, in psychodynamic therapy also, we have this, uh, concept of the Unconscious Therapeutic Alliance, which basically is the same. It is, uh, this part of the patient that has this unconscious will to health in, in the psychoanalytic, uh, thinker auto ranks terms.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, and the, or in Donald Winnekot’s terms, the, the, the, the true self that tries to express itself. Um, so, um, so, uh, in, in, in the traditional training on, in, before we also have this, the main thing you do is to show the patient that there’s, there is this sound part of you, this Healing forces tries to come through, and then there is this fear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of becoming authentic and to letting this true. And then you have the resistances against it. And then the whole thing is about tilting this inner, uh, power balance between the, the forces that want to express and the forces that wants to, uh, suppress in favor of the expressive forces. [00:38:00] Um, so it’s really a, a way of thinking that I, that I, that I’m well aware of and, and trained in from beforehand and it fits really well.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, but yeah, um, to just say that, I mean, it is a bit complicated because in a way it is, it has a lot of truth in it. If you’re able to trust that whatever is coming up is something that you can handle, then this trusting and this. You know, my frame of mind is, is, is actually creating, uh, that reality, at least to a certain extent, but we must be, uh, mindful that this is not possible, uh, for many of us.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and that, um, the risk of, you know, some kind of patient blaming, if you’re not able to, you know, heal from this, then it’s, uh, in a way your own fault or something like that is, but I, I must say I’ve never seen that as a problem in, you know, in the [00:39:00] therapies teams that we have here in Norway and throughout the training and the way MAPS has trained us.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, there is a lot of focus on that, uh, concept, but it, it’s not trained as some, you know, uh, I don’t know. In, I, I think it’s trained, trained in a quite wholesome way. That’s, that would be my perspective on it.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We do need to be really careful about how we talk about it and, um, I think it’s just such Yeah.
Joe Moore: An amazing thing. This is the first time in many years somebody brought up auto rank, so thank you for that. Oh,
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, yeah. You know it, yeah.
Joe Moore: Major influence on Stan Groff and, uh, transpersonal psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Um, breath work as well. Yeah. I, I love that term of phrase, uh, the will to health. I think that’s great.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, and I’m, I’m with you. It’s just I see it in nature. Rabbits [00:40:00] will shake, dogs will shake sometimes to change state. We don’t really have that, you know, we could. Yeah. Um, but it’s, you know, I mean, kids
Ivar Goksøyr : in, in bomb rooms, kids are shaking, but the adults has learned to, uh, suppress it as part of their culture conditioning.
Joe Moore: Mm. Right. Yeah. So there’s just so much there. And, um, I think, say would, would you agree that psychology is just kind of like, generally speaking, institutional psychology is kind of like missing a number of core ideas that we kind of discussed in the past, but we haven’t figured out how to integrate those things?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh. You know, there are a lot of different groups, uh, also in kind of the established psychology, at least here in Scandinavia. And they’re really onto a lot of these things. Uh, some coming from humanistic psychology and emotional focus therapies. And I mean, there’s [00:41:00] also, so I would say there’s, in
Ivar Goksøyr : the,
Ivar Goksøyr : the, the cartoon variant of mental health care is of course very little developed, but at least here in Scandinavia, I think there’s a lot of good stuff coming up.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I, even though there are some differences, and you say, I mean, in the maps manual, it’s, you know, one of the, uh, the sayings there is, can, can what is coming up be worked as, as, um, uh, po possibly part of the healing process instead of being pathologized, for example. And I, I do think that in, in many acute words, that would be a good thing to integrate more.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of course. And also I, I believe that like, say. Uh, this, this the psychotherapeutic culture where you, you, you, you suppose that there is a problem and then you dig to find the problem and, and solve the problem. Then you, you, you run the risk of creating, uh, the problem in by this way of thinking. So to assume that, and this is also a good exercise [00:42:00] for life, to assume that nothing is actually wrong, you know, that this is, this is all happening for perfect, uh, reasons.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, in this society we tend to individualize, uh, too much, you know, both our pride and our shame and, and you know, we’re quite, you know. We, we miss the big picture that, you know, we are part of a really, uh, big picture here, a big web of things. And our free will is probably much more, you know, constrained than we like to think, at least when we remain unconscious.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, you know, we are nature and patterns in nature expressing, and if I had had your genetic, you know, uh, uh, genetics and your, uh, learning history, I would’ve taken the exact same choices as you do in your life. And the same is true vice versa. So I really think it’s important to stop individualized and personalize and, and put so much blame [00:43:00] and guilt and, um, I mean, responsibility is important.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s important to, to wake up and to try to be conscious. And, but at the same time, you know, could your life up until now have, uh, unfolded in any other way than it did? If not, uh, is there anything to blame? And then we tend to compare ourselves, you know, to, to others. And then that’s just nonsense. Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, yeah. Yeah. Maybe deviating a little bit from your original question, but, so yes. I don’t want to, to, I wanna paint a, a too, you know, black or white picture of what is established. There’s a lot of good things going on, but for sure a lot of room for improvement in, in the way we think about things. And, uh, I do think psychedelic can be a, a positive, bring some positives there.
Ivar Goksøyr : And not to say the least to. Integrate, MDMA asso therapy in, in mental healthcare, but also in in somatic [00:44:00] medicine. Uh, for, for some, uh, disorders, I think will really enhance our understanding of how much unconscious emotional wounds are really, uh, at the core of so much of our symptoms and problems and diagnosis, both mentally and, and somatically.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, so I really have big hopes, uh, for that. And, and I mean, back to the inner healing intelligence, I mean, uh, patients, they really, it makes sense for patients because that’s, this is what they experience my, I mean, some people say it’s people that haven’t taken the drug will not understand. You can read yourself like an open book that they really feel, wow, where did that come, come from?
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s so fascinating that you know, all this, all this inside you, this inner wisdom, this intuitive knowing. Uh, so, so to, to give that I think and also as therapists to, to. Be engaged and to be equipped to do that deep transformative work that most of us wants to do [00:45:00] and to, to see how much this inner intuitive wisdom is, is triggered when.
Ivar Goksøyr : A drug and a context is really putting inside you a lot of trust, uh, and, and compassion. And so when you have trust and compassion you, that that’s what we needed to enter truth that is normally painful. And you know, when you’re trustful, you’re not afraid. So when you’re not afraid, you don’t need to defend and you don’t need to defend, then you have access, uh, to your body and to the contents of your mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, so, so that’s really, it’s empowering for the patients, but it’s also very empowering for therapists and, and to be able to step outta that expert role and, and to really learn from the individual cases and from this rapport of wisdom within each patient is really, really precious. And I, I think it will advance the field and the collective, uh, level of consciousness in mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, [00:46:00] for sure. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t mean to like put psychology in, in the psychiatric field in a bad light. It’s, it’s a problem to continue working on, um, if the paradigm stops yielding good results. Maybe we need to broaden the paradigm a little bit. Um, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for instance, like these psychedelic drugs are potentially some of the best drugs we’re adding to psychiatry since Prozac and Prozac.
Joe Moore: Wasn’t that amazing? It was. Okay. Yeah. But it wasn’t amazing. Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Absolutely.
Joe Moore: No,
Ivar Goksøyr : I,
Joe Moore: I totally agree. Yeah. And you know, I, I think, um, it’s okay to critique our fields too. I know we’re fighting really hard to make our fields. Um. Defensible and seem respected and whatever, but like, we also, part of that dynamic, for me at least, is like [00:47:00] confronting, like where are we having limitations?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. And I think, uh, I mean the, the, the, the numbers are clear. Like there’s so many people that we’re not able to reach in mental health care now, so it’s perfectly legitimate to critique it. I just sometimes feel that, you know, to stay out of idealization and devaluation can be really important because devaluation of others, uh, just triggers and idealization of what you’re doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : It, it, it kind of invites devaluation and devaluating others is not something that makes people interested in what you have to, to offer. So to, to have a nuance approach on that. But for sure, I mean, there’s so many people we are not able to help. And, and why is that? And you knows. And we’re talking about, yeah, we know we need more money and more time with each patient, and that’s true.
Ivar Goksøyr : And we need more, you know, better implementation of what actually works already, evidence-based treatments, and that’s so true. Um, but then I also think [00:48:00] that we, we are talking too, a little about the enormous complexity of the task at hand. So that that’s also an a, a good reason why we were not able to reach more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, anybody that has helped try to help a fellow human being that is stuck in deep self-hate or, you know, lack this early re relational imprints of being lovable or safe in those critical periods growing up, how hard that is to, to change, you know, there, there’s certainly no pill you can give anybody, and there’s no procedure.
Ivar Goksøyr : You can, you know, uh, elicit, even though no matter how much the health bureaucrats would like, that there’s no package you can give people. It’s, it’s really hard. And, uh, the mind is complex. And while in somatic medicines you have all these tools, you know, you have, you can take pictures and take tests to know more about the ethology underneath, you know, the root causes of the symptoms on there.
Ivar Goksøyr : On the surface. Uh, and you can also have this robotic [00:49:00] arms that can do these tiny precise procedures behind all these layers of protective tissue. But in mental health, we, we lack these, um, ways to, to get this deeper picture and, and, and do these incisions deep inside with, with very much position. And I, I do think that psychedelics are technologies for mental health that will really, uh, advance, uh, or give us the possibility to, to advance our knowledge and to, to help so many more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : They don’t come without risks, and especially if not, you know, uh, applied within a, uh, a context as is knowledgeable about how the psyche works. Um, so, but with that, I, I really am hopeful. Right. I mean, you see, you, you can look at the, you know, what has happened with ketamine in the us It, it is, it’s not only pretty, I mean, I’m very happy for all the people that have been [00:50:00] helped by ketamine in the us but the way it’s prescribed and, you know, uh, with, without any context and container and, you know, I, I kind of fear I have some worries that similar things will, will be happening to, to other psychedelic drugs.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s something to be aware of for sure.
Joe Moore: And I, the way I frame that, Ivar is like, it’s part of us learning. Like we have to make mistakes before we can learn. Yeah. And what is the optimal container and mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and cost is obviously a big thing, right? So, and I, I kind of know what you’re talking about.
Joe Moore: Some people are talking about at-home, MDMA and, um, not long after at-home, ketamine has had, you know. I, I can’t say bad results yet, but there has been abuse for sure, and there has been sloppy prescription for sure, and people have been hurt. But you know, in medicine people will get hurt. Um, so we have to kind of like, you know, is the standard of care be would’ve been [00:51:00] better for them.
Joe Moore: And that’s a whole thing that we have to work out and science will help us understand it, I hope.
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. I, I like that, that we’re still learning.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Like the idea that we’ve figured everything out just doesn’t work for me. Um, we’re too early. Science is still pretty young like. Double blind. Our cities are very young.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, yeah, 1962 or something, that it became the gold standard and, and yeah, psychologists, it’s, it is a very young discipline. And, and that’s what all those that we’re not able to reach, uh, those that our hearts still bleed for, they are, they are reminding us of that, that we are still a young discipline and that there are tons of things we still need to learn and, and psychedelics are, are learning enhancers, uh, done, uh, used in the, in the right way.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, so we as a field can learn from that hopefully.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so very optimistically, say five years out [00:52:00] from now, what might you hope is a little bit different as a result of the training that you’re putting on, and it’s coming up in about a month.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, well, so, uh, well, I, I, I really hope, I mean, we have 280 people trained and, and then I’ve done all the marketing myself, and now I’m getting the help of you, this platform, other platforms.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so to really reach thousands of, of, uh, participants in, in the next few years that will, and that this course will inspire them. To do ever more deeply inner healing work on themselves and be able to recognize so much more of the processes in patients because they’re not stocking their own anxieties and defenses.
Ivar Goksøyr : And because they have, uh, uh, walk similar paths themselves and have this increased ability to pattern recognition and to really connect and understand what they’re going through. Um, and that even though if they’re not working with psychedelics or MDMA at all, just that, that’s not a prerequisite at all for taking this course.[00:53:00]
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, that’s also part of the feedback. You know, even though if you don’t have much interest to, it’s a really good way to, to, to get some, um, depth knowledge on therapist development, uh, in itself and healing processes in general. So, yeah. So. For, for therapists to do their work. And I do believe there’s a lot of truth that you can’t bring anyone longer than you have brought yourself.
Ivar Goksøyr : However, luckily the patient can bring him or herself longer than you have, but then it will be despite of a, not because of. So yeah, that’s a goal. And also that’s amazing, uh, that, uh, this, uh, and pathogenesis therapist development study will be helped by this course to be funded and to be, uh, to have pioneered a new, uh, frontier in psychotherapist method, independent development, and have inspired, uh, many more [00:54:00] research groups to continue that endeavor, to use this learning enhancer together with a range of, of, of methods to really, really heal and help the, the,
Joe Moore: the healers.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So here’s, here’s something we didn’t get a chance yet, and we chatted about this before. Um, we recorded. Um, was this idea of MDMA being, um, at times more optimal for certain populations than tryptamines, like psilocybin? Um, could you speak a little bit about that?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, there’s a lot we don’t know yet, but my sense, uh, from my, uh, experience is that.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, for integrating into mainstream psychiatry. I, I do believe that MDMA has a special potential because it is easier to work with. There will be less projective processes, there will be less dramatic, uh, traumas [00:55:00] coming up. It challenges our metaphysics to a lesser degree. Um, it requires some, I I, I wouldn’t say that it requires less competency at all, but it’s easier to combine with whatever you’re already doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, you know, MBMA just opens your heart and goes straight into your personal biography, and you can just, no matter what your method you’re trained in, NDMA will help you to see that these processes you’re, that you’re trying to elicit will just become deeper while classic psychedelics. Um, will be much more different, much more, uh, spiritual and much more symbolic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And it can be harder to, to integrate. Uh, and it can, uh, can, can may, it may be more messy and maybe more people will have more dramatic and difficult experiences and, and there will be a bigger chance for, for, for backlash. This being said, uh, classic psychedelics, this is not to speak down classic [00:56:00] psychedelics.
Ivar Goksøyr : They have been shown to be quite safe in a clinical setting. It is possible, uh, but we must remember that the clinical settings in the, in the research, you know, the research settings, they are really tight and, uh, the screening is really tight. So when we open up more, I think, uh, it, it, it requires more to get that right.
Ivar Goksøyr : The potential is huge and there are important, but it just requires more specialized knowledge, um, to, to handle. Uh, the fact that these, that those drugs, they don’t have any inherently anxiety regulating properties, making the takeoff and learnings more, more smooth, like MD Ma, uh, do have. So I think, uh, here in Norway we just implemented, we are in the process of implementing ketamine in the public mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : It was just approved. Um, and, um, and I think that’s a, a good place to start. And then [00:57:00] if MDMA follows, uh, and then, uh, classic psychics after that, I think that could be a good learning curve for the field to make this implementation as wise as possible for the betterment of well people. I, I really think, uh, psilocybin is exceptional.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll see.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Time, time will show. Um, yeah. And let’s be intellectually honest as long as we can about these things. And, um, yeah. Yeah. And
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, it’s, I’m, I’m curious to know, you know, how it will, this is just my fantasies. I mean, and people have so many different views, so Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : I’m, I’m excited to see.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Amazing. Is there anything else that you’d like to mention before we work towards closing up? Maybe you can give the details of the training again.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so it’s coming up the 2nd of November and then the 9th of November. It’s two consecutive Sundays, [00:58:00] uh, three hours each online interactive, a lot of authentic clinical footage and, uh, you know, a little bit on the fundamentals and on the HandsOn aspects, but we don’t do use too much time on it, on it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then we frame what we see, uh, within this concept of the wounded healer, and we do a scientific clinical and, uh, exploration of that archetype and, uh, encourage self-reflection and watching clips and, and processing what this, how this is, uh, for, for each of us. But the main thing is to, to really get to see a lot of end a assisted therapy in action framed within a container that, uh, uh, therapists, uh, tend to, uh, really be appreciative of.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and, and I really enjoy doing that. And I, I, I will also say that I. You know, I, I don’t know. I’m not sure who the audience, uh, this live stream of podcast will be, but [00:59:00] I just think that, uh, each one of us that is somehow drawn to this field, we, we have this knowing that there is something important and yes, do not idealize.
Ivar Goksøyr : And there are all these limits and, and challenges in, in how to release the potential and avoid harm, but this inner knowing or feeling that we’re onto something important and that is really important to, um, to follow that, uh, inner knowing. And it’s really important that we mess it up as little as possible and that we really do our own work.
Ivar Goksøyr : That we educate ourselves in all the ways we possible can. Most of us also have this natural respect and maybe a little bit fearful for, you know, that I can certainly feel that every time I’m initiating someone, it’s hard to get an, a true informed consent, uh, but this certain trepid level of trepidation for entering these deeper realms.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I think we really need to be, uh, aware of the potential, but [01:00:00] also there’s responsibility and, and be really to believe in, I mean, to take seriously both this attraction we have towards the field. And I think each of us can have a special, unique contribution to the field. Uh, and also, uh, to take the, the responsibility that comes with engaging in this field.
Ivar Goksøyr : Seriously. So I, I hope to, to assist in, in those matters.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us and sharing, and I hope people check out the program. Um, check out the blog we have coming up from var. There’s gonna be some good insight there as well. Um, and thank you so much. Let’s, um, conclude here and we’ll hang out backstage for a minute.
Ivar Goksøyr : Great. Yes.

September 26, 2025November 25, 2025

Joe & Kyle Catch-Up: Vital Cohort 4, Breathwork, Community & a Psychedelic News Roundup

Headshots of Kyle Buller and Joe Moore from Psychedelics Today

Joe and Kyle celebrate Vital Cohort 4 and reflect on why Vital is more than a 12-month psychedelic-informed training—it’s a living community (alumni webinars, discussion groups, cross-cohort meetups). Many grads aren’t rushing to facilitate; they’re choosing integration, harm reduction, education, and local community building. Next cohort dates are TBD —applications and email sign-ups are open.

Breathwork in Breckenridge (this weekend)
Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork returns Fri–Sun. The last workshop reinforced how powerful the format is for bonding, somatic processing, and ongoing peer support.

Music & tech: fail-safe playbook

Keep redundant sources: primary laptop with WAV/FLAC (VLC/Mixxx), secondary device/phone, and a small Bluetooth speaker as last resort.
Redundant mixers/interfaces, tested cables, simple signal flow.
Pre-flight the exact rig; monitor for digital artifacts/grounding noise.
Use offline playlists + Do Not Disturb (actually test it).

Why community matters now
With AI accelerating “dead-internet” dynamics, trusted human networks—book clubs, film clubs, local meetups—are essential. Skills for the moment: digital security hygiene and discernment (evaluating claims, sources, and inner signals).

News & trends

Alaska: statewide psilocybin initiative begins signature gathering.
New Mexico: momentum toward group psilocybin care (cost-cutting models; ~2-year horizon).
TBI & psychedelics: expanding research interest (ibogaine/5-MeO imaging work; anti-inflammatory angles).
Colorado & iboga: advisory board backs therapeutic use and encourages Nagoya Protocol reciprocity; federal import/legal nuances remain.

Harm-reduction notes
Beware gas-station/head-shop “psychedelic” edibles labeled as “proprietary blends.” Ask for COAs and clear ingredients; understand test-kit limits (chocolates are tricky). For injections (even “legal” clinics), ask about sterile technique, water, dosing, and sourcing.

Get involved

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hi everybody. Joe here with Kyle. How are you doing today, Kyle?

Kyle Buller: Pretty good, Joe. How are you doing? It’s, uh, been a while since we’ve done one of these.

Joe Moore: It’s, um, not fair to us or the, or the world, so I’m glad we’re finally doing it.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah, so, um, today we get a lot to chat about.

Joe Moore: We wanna chat about like our community platform, breath work that’s coming up, uh, this weekend. And, um, probably some news items that are gonna be worth discussing too. So yeah, very excited to get into all of it. Um, yeah, and I guess congratulations to us and, um, for graduating Vital Cohort four. Just, uh, was it this past Sunday?

Kyle Buller: Yeah, this Sunday, cohort four. So if you’re chiming in here, congrats. And yeah, it’s been a journey, so yeah, it’s been been awesome.

Joe Moore: It’s really, really cool, um, to have finally been a part of a [00:01:00] graduation. Like I saw you and the rest of the team do it. I’ve, you know, popped in and watched a little bit, but like Vital, vital was kind of traditionally yours and like I backed off.

Joe Moore: So it was like really cool to kind of see that and, um, participate and, uh, yeah, it was just, you know, an, a very great experience for me. How was it for you?

Kyle Buller: You know, cried a whole bunch as as usual. Um, which is always pretty funny. I never always think I’m gonna get that emotional. But, um, yeah, it’s just, I think just like the connections that we make in the program, um, it just so heartfelt.

Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, it was, it’s always really nice to, you know, it’s sad and nice to know that people are now out there in the world and hopefully, you know, showing up in their communities in whatever way that they feel like they, they wanna show up, whether they’re educating or doing harm reduction integration, hosting retreats, just creating spaces for other people.

Kyle Buller: Um, it’s, it’s just really nice that we, there’s a lot of people [00:02:00] out there doing really awesome work, but yeah. How was it for your first time?

Joe Moore: Um, it’s kind of like emotionally overwhelming to just know that we’ve been able to help people. Um, kind of unfold who, who they want to be in the space, you know?

Joe Moore: Yeah. And just do like the adventure of self-discovery around their, you know, psychedelic future and how they want to show up and where they, what they want to do. And yeah, it was just really, really amazing ’cause it is so meaningful to people to be able to, you know, feel competent enough to share this stuff in, in helpful and safe ways.

Joe Moore: And, um, yeah, I just, I was pretty overwhelmed, honestly. And I’m just really grateful for everybody, you know, sticking with us. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, like how do you, so I guess like, not everybody listening knows all, everything about Vital, right? Like, it’s our world, so we assume it, but how do you, how do you like to talk about vital these days?

Joe Moore: Like, what is it? [00:03:00]

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I feel like it’s like shifted a whole bunch in, in ways. Obviously, you know, it’s been, um, pretty consistent where I’d say, you know, it’s our 12 month training program and psychedelic informed practice harm reduction integration. Um, so, you know, getting people really spun up on, you know, how to support people that are having psychedelic experiences, whether it’s on the, the prep side, um, for those that are, you know, doing stuff in the underground and decrim areas, really getting spun up on all the ethics of space holding and, and all that, uh, stuff.

Kyle Buller: And then the integration. But I also over the years, have felt like it’s just more than that. Um, it’s really turned into a community. Um, and I feel like that’s been a very large focus of vital is the community aspect of it. Um, really cultivating the relationships, cultivating the community between cohorts, um, and, you know, thinking about.

Kyle Buller: Like some of our [00:04:00] experiences in in Dream Shadow with that being a community. I think about like my time at Burlington College, it was a very community oriented program where it was just also beyond just learning. It was really about, it’s really about the connections that you’re starting to make with folks.

Kyle Buller: And so in some way, I feel like that is essence of vital, is it’s really community focused. Um, and I hope that shines through and it does, it does seem like that, um, with all the students that, that come through the program and all the touch points that we have too, right? Like we have like little meetups.

Kyle Buller: We do. Webinars on Mondays where some of the alumni come back and present on topics. We also have another group where we just have discussion groups that are a little bit more informal just for cohorts to mix and mingle and, and have discussion and learn from one another. So it’s, yeah. It’s also, I think, beyond just the theoretical learning aspects of it and really trying to foster that community so we can all lean on each other, um, as we always like to say, we can’t do this work alone and we [00:05:00] need people.

Kyle Buller: And so, um, I feel like that’s where, um, vital really kind of shines through.

Joe Moore: Right? Yeah. I think in a lot of ways we were trying to bring forward what we got at Dream Shadow and give people similar opportunities for kind of connection and, um, kind of, uh. It’s funny, right? Is it, is it a non-directive approach?

Joe Moore: Is it not? It’s kind of like a little bit of both. Um, yeah, and I think about that in the psychedelic container too. It’s like, is that really non-directive or is it Right. You know, a mix of growth. Exactly. Is it? Yeah. Right. It’s, it’s kind of like a scaffolding and we help you kind of climb through it and navigate your way through it.

Joe Moore: And, um, yeah. So where do you want to be in the space? Like, you could be anywhere you’d like, the, the rules right now are not very firm. Um, there’s certainly some legal consequences and we make sure to include a lot of those in our education. So, you know, be careful and be safe, everybody, but you know, there’s also edges.

na: Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Edges are where the most [00:06:00] interesting stuff happens. I think

Kyle Buller: that is true. And yeah, you know, we, I think anybody getting involved right now, like we are, everybody’s kind of pioneer on the forefront, right? Like the things are just getting developed and so it is confusing to try to navigate like, where’s my place?

Kyle Buller: How do I show up? What do I do? Um, as like a new field is emerging. Um, and, you know, people that leave vital go through, you know, a lot of people don’t end up doing any sort of facilitation, right? They, I’ve heard this multiple times. They’re like, you know, going through this program has taught me a lot and taught me like, maybe I don’t want to do this right now.

Kyle Buller: I need to learn more. Like I’m more interested in. The harm reduction and integration aspect, or I’m really interested in just creating community groups and being an educator, um, and, you know, stuff like that. And so, you know, it’s been really cool seeing, um, a bunch of our students go out there in the world and, and do stuff.

Kyle Buller: Like at psychedelic science was really nice. There was like, I think four students that had booths there. [00:07:00] Um, and they’re all kind of showing up in their own ways, whether they’re promoting like their retreat center or they’re offering education offerings in, in different, uh, like their, in their specialties.

Kyle Buller: So yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah, that was definitely a really special feature, um, for us, I think, to seeing the success and the, the being out there in the world. Not even necessarily financial success, because that’s like, not necessarily primary, but just the fact that you’re out there in the world and active in the thing that you really wanted to be active in and, and contributing.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, um. Yeah, if folks wanna learn more vital psychedelic training, we don’t have our dates firmed up yet. Um, vital psychedelic training.com. We can learn more about it there. Um, what can we say about it publicly at this point, Kyle? I don’t, I don’t think we have all that much we can say,

Kyle Buller: yeah, we don’t have the dates yet, but we are looking at either like May or September, just trying to figure out some scheduling things.

Kyle Buller: So, um, if you are interested, you can just go to the [00:08:00] website and then, um, you know, you could put an application in or sign up for, uh, emails just so we can stay in contact. Um, but yeah, we’re just ironing out a few details for our cohort. Six, if you are interested in, in joining. Yeah.

Joe Moore: And then, um, let’s talk about what’s going on this weekend.

Joe Moore: We have, uh, we’ve been kind of pushing for a while to, uh, market our, uh, three day, I guess two day two two day plus, um, breath work, workshop, dream shadow, transpersonal breath work, kind of a graph style, breath work method that we learned, a dream shadow. Um, what do we wanna say about that?

Kyle Buller: We have that coming up and it feels really good to be offering, um, breath work again.

Kyle Buller: Um, felt like I took a little hiatus after some of the vital retreats. Um, but yeah, we have this, uh, weekend workshop coming up Friday to Sunday up here in Breckenridge. So anybody’s listening that’s in the Colorado area that wants to come up for the weekend to do some breath work, we do have some spots open.

Kyle Buller: Um, so it’ll be fun. And it’s [00:09:00] beautiful up here right now. Leaves are popping. There’s snow on the peaks. Um, it’s a really beautiful time of year to come visit. Yeah,

Joe Moore: so pretty right now. Um, yeah, and I think our last workshop was just like so good for us, uh, for others too, but really primarily like we did.

Joe Moore: We, I would have really, I think, really good feelings about it and just was so good to be back in the saddle again after such a while.

Kyle Buller: I was gonna say you, that was like a first workshop for you in a number of years, right?

Joe Moore: Like, I don’t know that I. Really facilitated a full on like two part breath work session since before COVID.

Joe Moore: I might be wrong, but like I don’t, yeah, I haven’t really been in it for a bit and it felt really great to be back. Yeah. Thank goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, just, you know, the thing that I know really well, um, and I’m comfortable in that space and it was just, you know, good to be there and definitely good to be with you.

Joe Moore: [00:10:00] Uh, learned a bunch from you on the somatic front, um, which is great.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Minus the little bit of the, the music hiccups here and there.

Joe Moore: Right. Nobody noticed it sounds like they didn’t tell us they noticed at least. But you know, the idea is like, there’s, there’s a lot of, um, things to know about music and, and breath work and psychedelic sessions like, um.

Joe Moore: There’s so many possible points at which equipment can have issues and we want to kind of like work towards, you know, how can our systems be really kind of bombproof, but also have a backup.

Kyle Buller: You’re always thinking about that. And like, I think about it a little bit here and there, ’cause I’ve never had any like big hiccups, but like, how do you think about like, music backup and like psychedelic and breath work sessions where it obviously plays a really important role, um, in one’s experience.

Kyle Buller: So like those hiccups can also really cause a little bit of like, I don’t know, confusion with folks where all of a sudden the music stops and you’re in it, or there’s weird [00:11:00] like, artificial artifact noise coming through and you’re like, what the hell is this?

Joe Moore: Right? So like we can kind of name that we use this kind of like audio processor, um, because the outputs from a laptop aren’t really like producing like the, the most rich audio.

Joe Moore: Um, and so like. It’s never failed before in years and years. So we, we had a failure. I didn’t really check the stars to see if there was something up there, but maybe, and then, um, it was, it was kind of felt really glitchy and like digital weirdness was going on and we just didn’t know what to do and we had a hard time kind of solving that, um, in real time.

Joe Moore: Oh yeah, that was like the most intense kind of, um, music failure I’ve been a part of, which is fascinating. I’m glad we were able to do it together. Um, but like Lenny talks about having like a, like a generator backup at his house for audio. Um, worst case you can put on a little boom boxy thing. Um, I like, I like to have [00:12:00] multiple different kind of things, so, you know, a little Bluetooth speaker, like I have this little small little Bose thing.

Joe Moore: That’s nice. Um, and then, uh, you know, typically we’re using like a relatively big size PA system. I, I personally have like three different. Oh, geez. If we put in the, like the DJ control, there’s like five different mixers that could be used for that kind of a situation that we do. Um, and I bring two at least.

Joe Moore: Um, so if one fails, we can flip over to the other. Sometimes that gets stressful though. Um, and then like any, any individual piece can fail, um, at any point. And there’s no way to really tell, just like, you know, hard drives used to explode all the time, right. And we could never tell. And how much music have we lost as a result of that crap?

Joe Moore: Tragic. Um, yeah. And, uh, yeah, then, you know, can you, can you have a backup? Like, historically, I never thought, like [00:13:00] my DJ equipment at the mixer and beyond like speakers and, and all that would fail. But they, they can, so what I would do historically is I would have the, um, a PC playing a Wave file. So there’s like very little happening, um, like wave, like there’s not really much computing required ’cause there’s not much compression, there’s not any compression really.

Joe Moore: So like the computing power should be really small. Um, and I use an app that hasn’t really ever failed on me, like VLC. Mm-hmm. Um, really popular media player. Um, and that’s like really low computing requirements as well. I think it’s even open source, which is, yeah, it’s pretty lightweight. Yeah. And then, um, I’ll have secondly a audio device into two other channels that’s actually playing in real time, a playlist.

Joe Moore: Um, it could be my breath work playlist. Could be something else. Could just be a track on loop. Um, and so if the audio on like channels one and two start failing, I bring up three and four from my phone or [00:14:00] iPad or whatever it is. And then, um, there’s very little loss, um, of like time. With music, with the, with the people breathing.

Joe Moore: So I think like that’s how I historically did it, but now that maybe the mixers are, sorry, are failing, and like how do we, yeah. How do we actually understand like what part of the equipment’s failing? Um, so you kind of have to like be somewhat technical, somewhat competent with your equipment. So that’s why maybe don’t overcomplex, uh, make it too complex at first.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, start simple and build and stay comfortable with your gear. Um, yeah. So I don’t know, did you, did you have any kind of like takeaways.

Kyle Buller: Um, well, I think like testing your gear out. ’cause that was the first time I used my laptop, I think, on that mixer or the output with all those speakers. And like, I’ve never had an issue with like that weird digital artifacting that came through.

Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm. And so I wonder if it was like more power or something that was sucking out of the computer, [00:15:00] um, or computer needing to, to do more. Um, but, you know, I think I always will. So I, I typically use like flack files and I use a program called Mix. So I’m able to like auto DJ and like real time, like mix things in case

Joe Moore: Slack doesn’t have compression either, like Right.

Joe Moore: Yeah. It’s like really light. Or maybe it does have compression, but it’s really light. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: And then, um, yeah, ’cause sometimes I like to mix live. Like there’s the songs coming up and I’m like, eh, it’s not really gonna fit here. I kinda wanna switch it up and, or I notice like, you know, things maybe I need to add something.

Kyle Buller: Um, so I always. We will create a duplicate of that on Spotify. And so that’s what we ended up doing. It’s like, thankfully I had that, um, on Spotify as well, so we could just switch over, um, as like we were starting to have some of those weird digital artifacting hiccups there in the middle of a session.

Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, I think always having a backup, um, is really [00:16:00] important, um, when, when you’re doing this stuff. But yeah, testing, testing all the equipment first. Like I think we didn’t do extensive tests with it beforehand. Um, no. And so that was like really the first time, like running my computer on, on a system like that.

Kyle Buller: We should check it

Joe Moore: again tomorrow. Yeah. What I realized is we could actually use like headphones like this Yeah. Um, to actually have a, like simulate that like kind of say, is it the output from this? Or, ’cause we didn’t, I don’t think, had earbuds even to plug in and check. Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s complicated and generally folks, you’re not gonna have a problem.

Joe Moore: When you do you want to have a plan, like exactly the equipment, exactly. Like these days it’s really solid. Like Windows doesn’t really crash all that much anymore. Mac doesn’t really crash that much anymore. Um, there’s types of devices that crash even less like a, like a real DJ mixer. Like if we throw up like my big DJ controller and plug in a USB and play, [00:17:00] like these things are designed to play big festivals and the stability is crazy.

Joe Moore: Like, yeah. Um, even Skrillex’s laptop has crashed when he is playing live. So like that’s kind of probably have a backup computer though. Right, right, right. What do we have three computers there? Yeah. Which is nuts. Which is really crazy. Um, and we still couldn’t like figure out what was going on. Oh, what was it?

Joe Moore: No, my, one of my laptops just wasn’t producing audio outta the headphones port. Um, the other one I think had some weird issues too. It was a really surreal experience, but I’m glad we got to the other side. Yeah. I don’t

Kyle Buller: think I’ve ever had that many, like tech hiccups, like doing music stuff and I think it was a good lesson learned of like, yeah, prep all your stuff, like test it out, make some like backup plans.

Kyle Buller: And then as I switched over to my phone too, I was like also thinking. Oh, I’m not connected to the wifi, so I can’t like, go into like airplane mode to like cancel any calls. If this is streaming from my phone on Spotify, if a call comes through, it’s gonna [00:18:00] disrupt the music. And like, so then I was like kind of panicking, like, oh man.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. What if like a call comes through like as we’re streaming this through the phone, that’s gonna be really disruptive. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s like all these little things you don’t think about. And then yeah, you need to like be on your feet real time to try to problem solve so it’s not so disruptive to, to folks.

Joe Moore: Yeah. And take notes here. There’s a lot of really good gems here that you, you know, learn from our mistakes. We make the mistakes so you don’t have to. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, uh, do not disturb, uh, mode sometimes works, but sometimes the song will interrupt and you don’t actually know until you test it and like, do you actually ever really know?

Joe Moore: Um, ’cause these things update and like software changes every day, so you don’t know really how it’s gonna play. Um, so be careful out there. That’s why I liked the, um. The old school iPods were really great, um, with the hard drive and you can just kind of plug right in and that was lovely. Um, but you know, there’s limited limitations [00:19:00] there.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Obviously our files were like, my playlist, it’s like three to five gigs. ’cause it’s a wave file, it’s giant. So like it could even fill up those, those things. Um, yeah. But yeah, the sematic work that we got to do there, the, the kind of group processing work that we got to do there, the group bonding, like I think the group’s still talking to each other, which is amazing.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, we, we heard that they got to together and did like a party in the front range, which was really cool. So it’s just like lovely to see that. A workshop like this that, you know, we believe in this format quite a bit. I think so. You know, just seeing it again and again and again. Workout. Great. It’s just always so reassuring.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. It’s nice to just be able to share it with folks too. Um, yeah. ’cause how impactful has it been in our lives? Right. Just to be able to like, share it with other folks. Mm-hmm. It’s really nice, really special.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So, um, that’ll be coming up Friday, so tomorrow. So [00:20:00] if anybody’s in Colorado wants to join us, rec breath.com or psychedelics today.com/events, you can learn more.

Joe Moore: Um, we’d love to have you still time and, uh, what else is going on? Um, yeah, we’re trying to launch a kind of membership site here to get people, um. Kind of a little bit more active in our community. Like we’ve had this kind of, um, online Facebook alternative. It’s just us, uh, for a bit now, and it’s been great.

Joe Moore: It’s mostly vital folks. Um mm-hmm. And there’s some patrons in there. I think we have 33 paying patrons is what I saw the other day in the, in that platform. And that’s been really fun, um, to see that and really helpful for us. So thank you everybody that’s participating like that. It helps a lot. Yeah. Um, and yeah, we’re trying to figure out what do folks want.

Joe Moore: I think we’re gonna bring in, um, exclusive content, hopefully figure out ways to include courses, maybe some courses that we’ve had out for a while. And, and I think what, we have five courses in development right now that might be [00:21:00] included there. So, you know, stay tuned. Um, and we’d, we’d love and need your support.

Joe Moore: Um, but yeah. Kyle, what are you excited about about this community platform?

Kyle Buller: I’m excited just to like, yeah, you know, we’ve had this, um, and just to like really engage with it a little bit more. So like having kind of like exclusive live streams like this, doing more of it. Um, also, uh, I. Book clubs, like those are always really fun to just like get together and like talk about material that way.

Kyle Buller: Um, so yeah, I just feel like, you know, we’ve been really engaged in the vital community for the past few years. Um, hence why like, I don’t really podcast as much as I used to. Um, but yeah, really excited to just gauge the engage, like the, the larger audience, our, our whole PT audience here. So, um, yeah, it feels like we’ve been very kind of like focused on the vital community and um, yeah, now trying to um, open it up, you know, I think we’ve learned a lot through that and like creating [00:22:00] that and then just being able to open it up, um, to outside of folks that yeah, vital might not be a great fit for Right.

Kyle Buller: It’s a, it’s a pretty big, um, it’s a pretty big commitment and yeah, I’m seeing David there in, in real life events for sure. Yeah, that is part of the plan too. We wanna do more in person events for the community. It’s really, I love this overlay.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, for sure we’re, we’re working on, um, in-person events more regularly.

Joe Moore: Um, I’m traveling a bunch in the near term, so I’m hoping to say hi to folks in the northeast, like Philadelphia. Um, Boston. There’s a chance New York, but I’m not sure. It’s a kind of logistically complicated, but if anybody wants to help me in New York, reach out, I would love that. Um, but yeah, just getting together, even if it’s for a short meal or sandwich or whatever.

Joe Moore: Amazing. Um, I want to do bigger. More robust events, especially for the vital community. But you know, that takes resources and time. So the more support we get [00:23:00] here, um, in our community platform, the more we can, um, spend our time actually developing those in-person events to mm-hmm. You know, bring value and, and, you know, community and much more.

Kyle Buller: But having a lot of these conversations lately just around like how we’re just entering this age of like high tech and AI and um, yeah, we can channel Northern California for you as well, David. Um, but, uh, yeah, just how important it is. Like, I was just chatting with somebody I think last night, um, just how.

Kyle Buller: You know, community is gonna get us through, um, you know, some challenging times. And I think again about like going through some challenging times and having like the dream shadow community there for me and for everybody else. Um, but yeah, like as you know, we just kind of enter this like crazy digital world, um, where yeah, everything feels like really artificial.

Kyle Buller: Like yeah, being able to come together, um, in person online, to like really, um, you know, cultivate, uh, [00:24:00] human relationship. I think it’s gonna be really, really important as we progress into the AI age of whatever the hell it’s gonna bring to us.

Joe Moore: So, you know, that’s an interesting point. Like, I, I think we should name, um, dead internet theory.

Joe Moore: By way, David, I’ll, I’ll be, I’ll be in, uh, San Francisco, November 7th for the Heroic Heart Gala. Uh, maybe we could hang out before, after that. Anyway, the, um, the idea is that as more and more content becomes generated by ai, it’s, it becomes somewhat recursive and problematic in that, um, the data that’s getting cited is actually bad data.

Joe Moore: ’cause it was generated previously by ai, by AI and Misattributed. So there’s becoming this like, really scary problem. And, um, at a certain point, at what point does the internet become totally not useful, um, or at least radically less useful? Um, you know, in situations like [00:25:00] this, you know, we’re, we’re still doing okay because we’ve read a bunch of books and lived a lot of life, um, and, and know a lot of folks.

Joe Moore: Um, but yeah, like who’s to say Wikipedia is even gonna be all that helpful in a handful of years. Once, um. AI has had its way with Reddit and like the citations get really, really complicated. Yeah. So in-person, community is gonna be really important. Getting to know people and trusting people. I, I hope folks like us can still, you know, maintain some sort of sense of truth and, and help everybody cut through the bs.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I don’t know. What do you think?

Kyle Buller: Uh, I’ve been listing revisiting like Terrence McKenna, um, over the years. Um, or not over the years, over the past, like month or so, because I remember years ago I heard him talk about, um, this archaic revival and he was talking about how in the future people are gonna just be living in their own little worlds and that there’s gonna [00:26:00] be the computer chip behind the eye.

Kyle Buller: Um, and we’re gonna be interfacing pretty much with like augmented reality, like through like a, an implant like that. Um, and. Then, you know, there’s that whole announcement of like the meta glasses coming out and it’s not too far off. And like I just, I, I think that it, it’s just really interesting to hear Terrence talk about this stuff in the nineties.

Kyle Buller: Um, and kind of like just, you know, and Terrence had all sorts of crazy ideas, but it’s like, I feel like we’re getting closer to like what he was actually like, you know, talking about back then. Um, and I just always come back to like his, I think it’s like titled his last interview where he is just like, it’s just gonna get so weird that we just gotta talk about how weird it is.

Kyle Buller: Um, and I feel like we are hitting this point in, in human, human history where it’s getting pretty weird out there. It’s very psychedelic in a way. It’s like very confusing.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it is. It certainly is. And um. Again, having that kind of [00:27:00] community that can handle complexity and can handle stressful stuff and crisis with you and, and more is, is gonna be just increasingly important.

Joe Moore: So, you know, build that we can, you know, leverage our community with you. You know, you can join us. Um, but definitely build something locally for you too. Um, yeah. And yeah, whatever it is. Gardening club. Yeah. You know, seed swap, book club, whatever those local, yeah,

Kyle Buller: those local communities are really important.

Kyle Buller: You know, I think that helps with like resiliency when like, things are kind of like getting really shaken up. Um, so yeah. You know, have like your larger community, also have your local communities, um, and have a diversity of community. I think it’s, it’s really important. Um, I like Debbie’s comment here. I came for the psychedelic state for the community.

Kyle Buller: I always actually said that about like the breath work too. It’s like, came for breath work first, but ended up really kind of staying for the community and started becoming more about the people than, than the experiences.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. [00:28:00] I’ve seen a number of communities and they’ve, they’ve done interesting stuff.

Joe Moore: I, I think I started seeing Discord kind of explode with communities around that like NFT hype cycle a bunch of years ago, which is interesting. And just saw people kind of communicating in all sorts of interesting ways, not just about like magic internet money go up kind of stuff. Like it’s, you know, sharing news and memes and jokes and like, you know, there was a culture around some of them that was actually real as opposed to purely just kind of greed culture.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Which was also there for sure too. But, um, it was just fun to see that and I was like, oh, okay. Like we can do something here. Um, and you know, I think in time we didn’t, I, I’ve always been a little kind of skeptical on discourse, like, that seems like just a little edgy to put psychedelic community because, you know, um, it’s somebody else’s servers.

Joe Moore: It’s not really all that, you know, they could shut you down. Um. And, you know, even our community, it’s not all the way private, right? Like it’s [00:29:00] hosted somewhere. So, you know, if you want to do hyper secret stuff, like the Internet’s probably not the best place for it, but it still doesn’t mean you can’t help each other and communicate.

Joe Moore: And then take it to signal if you need to, then take it in person if you need to. Um, and, you know, we’re here for kind of helping with that scaffolding. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, what kind of content do you need? What’s gonna serve you in the projects that you have going on? Not just like, you know, cool trip stories, which, you know, those are fun too.

Joe Moore: But also, you know, what are the helpful stories that are gonna help you build the thing that you want to build with people?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Um, so we’re open to questions, so I think most platforms can ask questions, so please do. Um, yeah, I’d love to just kind of interact with you all, um, and see what’s going on out there for you and see what we can kind of like interact with, I think.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah, finally, just please check out our community, psychedelics [00:30:00] today.com/navigators. Um, we’re gonna be putting up all sorts of like, scaffolding there and higher level memberships with more access to us and, um, the community and, you know, just stay tuned for all that. Um, I think we’ll have that kind of announced in the next handful of days, hopefully.

Joe Moore: Yeah,

Kyle Buller: we’ll, we’ll be rolling it out over time.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So, um, let’s see, what else here? Um, what are the skills important to learn at the moment? Um, David to asks that question, I’ll put it up on the screen for everybody watching video. Um, so. It depends on where you’re at. Um, you know, I think, uh, I think understanding how, how you could get in trouble digitally is a really good one.

Joe Moore: So there’s that digital security class I’ve taught a handful of times. We’ll probably have that in the community in the near term. Um, if you want coaching or consulting on that stuff, I’m open to that just hit us up. Um, but the idea is like, how are you [00:31:00] exposing yourself and what are the actual risks? Um, are you covered legally?

Joe Moore: You know, are you actually working with lawyers appropriately? There’s so much to this. Um, and, uh, I don’t have a broad enough view into what every community is like in the psychedelic ecosystem, so I can’t really say. Do you, do you have any thoughts on, on to where he’s, uh,

Kyle Buller: yeah, and I, I’m kind of just taking that too, like what are important skills of like, the times?

Kyle Buller: Um, and one thing that comes to my mind is, uh. As you were kind of talking about like dead internet theory and like all this other stuff, it’s just like our discernment. Um, and really trying to get in touch with that a little bit more because, and you know, that’s also really relevant for psychedelics, right?

Kyle Buller: It’s like you get a message, do you necessarily believe it at face value right off the bat? Um, or it, um, you know, do you sit with it a little bit? And again, you know, now everything. I think we’re just entering this [00:32:00] like new age of like. Yeah, you see some videos and you’re like, is that real or is that ai?

Kyle Buller: You know, it’s like, it’s really hard to tell what’s true, um, anymore, which is like, kind of concerning. So I think like our just discernment is more important than ever. Like, you know, and also like, you know, what are we taking in like, ’cause obviously all this stuff like affects us on so many different levels.

Kyle Buller: So, um, yeah, like how are you, how are you taking in information? How do you discern information? Um, it’s all, I think, like, really crucial right now. Um, ’cause there’s a lot of noise out there in the world. Um, and there’s a lot of, lot of, a lot of weirdness as I guess Terrence would say.

Joe Moore: So much weirdness.

Joe Moore: Yeah. High weirdness moment. And yeah. David, if you’re talking, if David, if you’re talking about like survivability and like prepping, um. I’m not necessarily all that fluent on what’s going on today. I don’t know, um, [00:33:00] what to really say, but community is gonna help. Um, so getting together, I think, uh, in my permaculture class it was like, um, if you have a hundred people in your kind of circle with all the right skills, like you can kind of flesh out kind of a really great society.

Joe Moore: Um, and, you know, there’s specialist skills beyond that, but that’s where societies can keep interacting, uh, with each other. Yeah. Um, yeah, I like, I like the Chomsky, anco, cynicalist kind of model where it’s kind of like hierarchical unions that are kind of, um, voluntarily kind of associated and, and kind of cooperate too, so, mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: It’s important that groups kind of interact and negotiate skillfully and we kind of like decrease coercion over time. Hopefully. Hopefully. Um, because consent, uh, matters, I think. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, definitely. I dunno if the government agrees still, but maybe. Um, so we’ll get there, get there in time. So just keep hope alive.

Joe Moore: Um, [00:34:00] and uh, yeah, so I think like what kind of news have you bumped into lately in the psychedelic arena, Kyle, that’s got you interested in, um, curious.

Kyle Buller: One I posted about maybe last week. Um, and, you know, maybe this also comes back to discernment as well, and, and what you’re consuming. Um, it was a study that was published, uh, in Oregon, um, surveying 11 different, uh, mushroom products.

Kyle Buller: Um, I think 10 of ’em were gummies. One of ’em was a chocolate bar. Um, but none of them contained psilocybin. Um, they came back with like all sorts of different other, uh, you know, ingredients. Uh, and you know, I think if we’re, you know, you’re talking about consent, um, having informed consent of like what you’re ingesting is super, super important.

Kyle Buller: Um, you know, some of them did contain psy. Um, you know, I feel like, you know, I think that that’s pretty legit. Psilocybin ilsy, right? Psilocybin converts into psilocin. But again, [00:35:00] it’s like, you know, do people know the dosing? Do people know what they’re ingesting? Um, and yeah, some of these products just didn’t have any sort of psilocybin or psilocin in it.

Kyle Buller: Um, most of, I think some, some came back with like THC kava, um, some of them were just functional mushrooms. Um, I don’t remember everything off the top of my head right now, but, um, you know, that is a bit concerning ’cause people just see these products and they go, oh, this is legit. Like, people are doing really good marketing.

Kyle Buller: Um, and then just not having good, uh, informed, you know, consent here around like, should I est this? Do I know what I’m taking? Um, and I actually, it’s, it’s such an interesting thing and I, I might have mentioned this like on a podcast a while ago, but. I was down in, um, I was down in Key West back in March and uh, after I went down there for a wedding and me and my friend decided to go down to Key West just to hang out for the weekend.

Kyle Buller: And, um, it was really interesting. There was all [00:36:00] these like hemp shops within like, I mean, there was just one after another after another, and a bunch of ’em had these signs that they were selling psychedelic mushrooms. And so I decided to pop in there and, um, see, hey, what, what’s going on here? And I asked the guy, I was like, Hey, like, what’s in these mushrooms?

Kyle Buller: He’s like, I can’t tell you. And I was like, what do you mean you can’t tell me? He’s like, uh, it’s a proprietary blend. I, I can’t tell you what’s in it. And I’m just like, well, that’s kind of sketchy. I was like, is it mus al? Like he is like, we don’t say that word around here. And I’m like, and I was like, I, you know, I was like, I work in the psychedelic industry.

Kyle Buller: I was like, I’m just like highly fascinated about like how you guys are like getting these workarounds or, or what’s actually in these, these, these bars and, and products. And he just told me he’s like. There’s a loophole that we’re able to get through that this is a food product and we’re able to just like label it as a proprietary blend.

Kyle Buller: Um, so I can’t like tell you what’s in it. I can just tell you it’s a proprietary blend, but it’s just like, again, informed consent. It’s [00:37:00] like, you know, you have no idea like what you’re ingesting. And I just think that, you know, it’s harmful. Like what if somebody has like, um, an adverse reaction and needs to go to the hospital and you can’t tell, like, you know, the doctors like what you just ate, you know?

Kyle Buller: Um, it’s like, oh, I ate this chocolate bar, this proprietary blend of mushrooms. Like I have no idea what I, I actually ingested here. Um, so, you know, be careful. There’s a lot of products out there on the market and they are showing up at like gas stations and head shops and stuff like that all throughout.

Kyle Buller: You know, the country. Um, and yeah, it does seem like there’s these like interesting workarounds, um, being food products, um, and you know, who knows what’s actually in it. So, um, you know, maybe try to find somebody that’s a bit trusted than, you know, sketchy, uh, products that head shops and gas stations.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. I think that’s really important for us to notice, like that the market is really doing weird things. Like I [00:38:00] saw all these mito brands recently, marketing product, like I’m all for product being out there and safe product especially, and especially if you’re advertising exactly what it is. Um, but you know, I think there were some brands that claimed years ago, Kyle, I don’t know if you remember this one.

Joe Moore: Um, they were claiming that. They were only selling functional mushroom brands and that, or functional mushrooms. And that some sort of counterfeit operation was actually selling use, leveraging their brand selling illicit product. Oh, wow. For a CO and, and, and OSI and, and things along those lines. And I, I think that was total bullshit.

Joe Moore: I think that was just kinda like what they were saying. Um, so they got in less trouble. But I think there’s, you know, there’s a lot there to how do we actually know what we’re buying is what it is. Um, are, is there accountability in the kind of chain of custody of the products? Generally in a illicit market, there isn’t.

Joe Moore: Um, and, uh, even in decrim, like in Colorado, like how do we know, like I think a lot of Colorado [00:39:00] brands are even doing the same thing. So, um, you know, work hard, work with each other to like, make sure it is what they say it is. Yeah. Test kits, like dance safe and, and whatnot can kind of test for some sy but I don’t know that they’re testing and differentiating with like four A-C-O-T-M-T and other things.

Joe Moore: So I wanna be really careful. That’s why I’m like excited about Reggie’s company, like Labs. Actually, did I tell you that story when someone, someone gave me a bar in San Francisco and I was like, I don’t know, I’m definitely not gonna eat that. And then I like looked at it later and like the lab logo was on it, Haifa Labs, like logo, all their trust.

Joe Moore: I feel more trust there. Yeah. And I was like, oh, actually I will assume this. Oh, fascinating. Um, you know, I obviously there’s room for like counterfeit and like some bullshit there. Yeah, totally. But better than, you know, a sketchy like. Uh, unknown kind of branding package with who knows what in it.

Kyle Buller: [00:40:00] Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. And I don’t know, like, like you might need to send some of those bars in for like mass spec, because I think picking some of this stuff is like really tough. I, I was on a website, I forget what it was called, like know your drugs.com or something like that. And they did have like, chocolate samples and they said it’s a little bit harder to kind of, uh, pull out, um, active compounds in some of the, um, some of the, like the, the chocolate bars and stuff like that.

Kyle Buller: ’cause there’s just so much stuff in it. But, um, I don’t know. I, I thought that was kind of interesting. Um, they had like little notes that, you know, like all the organic matters showing up and it’s hard to like, really tease apart everything when it comes to like those types of products.

Joe Moore: Right. It’s, I, I think really important to note, um.

Joe Moore: So just be careful out there. Um, what else has been interesting? I think it’s interesting, like, you know, so Santa Fe, we didn’t really get to talk about the Santa Fe conference. Um, there was yet again, a lot of activity from the Texas people in that like [00:41:00] overarching Iboga community. Um, and it was, it was interesting to see that momentum there.

Joe Moore: And then, um, Brian Hubbard getting some great stage time and then getting a lot of interest too. ’cause New Mexico deals with a lot of addiction. Um, it’s kind of clear that IGAs not purely for opioids at this point, which kind of used to be the label, but it seems to be helpful with all sorts of addiction.

Joe Moore: So I think there’s, there’s definitely some interest even in New Mexico around Ibogaine, which they haven’t really kind of gotten loud about yet, but that’s cool. Like Arizona put in money after Texas is 50 million. I heard rumor Mississippi might be Wow. Coming soon. Um. So it’d be really interesting for the US self to be kind of radically influencing, um, psychedelic and, and iboga policy.

Joe Moore: Um, should be fascinating.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Was there any other like big insights away from that conference? It, I’m so bummed I didn’t get to go down there, but it was also a, just a good decision not to go. [00:42:00]

Joe Moore: Sometimes we need to rest, apparently. I, yeah. Um, so, uh, what I learned about Texas and how Texas actually funded that 50 million.

Joe Moore: Texas on occasion will have like a huge, um, surplus in revenue, in tax revenue from like oil. Um, so it was like a crazy amount of money in surplus that Texas had that year in tax revenue. So they were able to actually just grab a slice of that. Um, and I don’t, like in Colorado, sometimes we get refunds from the government, which, uh, was happening with early cannabis, but I think like, um.

Joe Moore: Texas just grabbed a chunk of that money that was surplus because of tax revenues from oil, and then were able to just allocate that. So I thought, um, potentially some of that money came from an opioid abatement fund, but that’s not the case. Um, Brian Hubbard’s still on a war path around like mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Corruption in Kentucky around the opioid abatement fund money. Um, he, he kind of laid that all [00:43:00] out at South by Southwest. I don’t, I’ve not seen him lay it out elsewhere yet in detail, maybe on Rogan a while ago, but yeah. Have you seen him lay that out yet?

Kyle Buller: I don’t think so, no.

Joe Moore: He’s working hard to put people in jail Wow.

Joe Moore: Around federal, like, not federal, but state, state level corruption and like, um, people who are in like the pipeline to be pre and president in the near future and all this kind of fascinating stuff. Yeah. Um. So David’s asking a thing here about the industry needs to mature, but who starts? I feel like nobody’s asking for ingredients, like, you know?

Joe Moore: Yeah. Like, that’s a big deal. I think we need to, like, you’re, you’re probably gonna see that kind of stuff in like, uh, Southern California and San Francisco first. Um, like Venice Beach, I’m sure they’re like, you know, super, um, super expensive ingredients and product, um, and listing it all. And, um, eventually people with like, uh, celiac and, um, other [00:44:00] insensitivities can really, or not insensitivity sensitivities can be a little bit safer when consuming.

Joe Moore: So I think like, it’s coming, it’s coming. Um, you know, things, things that I find interesting are, um, if somebody’s getting injected with a substance, like how are they feeling safe about that? Um, in a ketamine clinic, that kind of makes sense because there’s like that whole clinical supply chain and we kind of trust that as Americans.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Or Westerners. And then, uh, but if you’re in some underground clinic and somebody’s got a needle for you, like that’s a really interesting roll of the dice. Um, and even if it’s a apparently legal clinic, like what is that kind of, what do you want to know about that before they inject you? And I think we don’t even know that, um, as a culture, like as a kind of psychedelic consumers.

Joe Moore: Like I, I’ve been hearing about people injecting five M me o in the underground. I’m just like, how are you sterilizing that? How are, like, what kind of water do you use? Like how are you even measuring [00:45:00] like, you know, 15 milligrams or whatever it is, or eight milligrams for that. So it’s really, really a curious landscape.

Joe Moore: And thankfully a lot of, I’m not hearing a about a lot of injuries from that. Are you? I

Kyle Buller: haven’t, no.

Joe Moore: Um, but you know, there’s always stuff that’s possible. Um,

Kyle Buller: yeah.

Joe Moore: I’m sure there’s a

Kyle Buller: lot of stuff that we just don’t hear about. Right? Like, I’m sure it’s happening, but just not coming on our radar. But, you know, I think Dave, to your question, like who starts?

Kyle Buller: And I think it just starts with you. It starts with all of us, um, to just be better, better educated, more informed. Asking people those questions, you know, like, I was just so damn curious. I walked in that shop and started like, asking questions, you know, it’s like maybe they were a little freaked out.

Kyle Buller: Maybe they thought it was like a narc or something. But, um, you know, and it also happened again, like I was in, I think it was like West Palm Beach, uh, into like another hemp shop. And this guy was trying to convince me that some [00:46:00] of those bars do contain Cy, but it’s completely legal. Um, and I’m like, SI’s not legal.

Kyle Buller: Like, and he was like, no, no, it is. And I’m like, you’re putting people at risk here by like being like that open, selling this stuff in public, especially in Florida, you know, it’s like mm-hmm. But just people aren’t educated about it. And, you know, I think it, it starts with us to try to learn, um, and, and ask, ask those questions when we do come across those products.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I was buying some cannabis edibles in Massachusetts a bunch of years ago, and, um, the person behind the counter was going nuts about how amazing it is that mushrooms are legal in North Carolina. And I was very nervous about that conversation for obvious reasons, like number one, that it’s not.

Joe Moore: And um, you know, I, I even corrected the person when I got up there. I was like, Hey man, that’s like really risky. That’s a really like high risk location for substance. And, [00:47:00] um, I couldn’t convince him and it was fascinating. It’s like they’re selling it so it’s legal. It’s like that A doesn’t even b

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, like somebody has a very high risk tolerance and is like just Yeah. Skirting the law here and taking risk.

Joe Moore: Right. And I think, you know, there’s, um. There’s a certain level of like, what is the actual risk? Like we feel, right, our outside perspective is that there is like a really high risk, but also like how many shops are getting busted, how many people are going to jail or losing assets for it?

Joe Moore: And like, I think it’s pretty low probably. Yeah, I think like collectively they’re kind of making these judgment calls, like, um, and carrying things like Minocin product. Um, which is really interesting ’cause it’s not. Federally scheduled Minocin. Um, but Federal Analog Act is still there. Yeah. So ostensibly you could get busted federally and you know, apparently I heard, I learned yesterday that [00:48:00] some lawyers are really comfortable with the idea of defending that in court, which I’m like, how, how are you comfortable?

Joe Moore: Like, maybe it doesn’t get prosecuted as much. I don’t know. Right. I think, I think it doesn’t, like it would be, it’s like a really expensive thing to go to federal court to challenge that kind of thing. And I don’t know if you remember, like Sasha Shulgin had a lot of like really great testimony around, um, ’cause the law, the Federal Analog Act is something along the lines of, it needs to be substantially similar.

Joe Moore: And, and Sasha was just on stage saying that doesn’t mean anything. And from a legal perspective you have no ground. Mm-hmm. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that, um, things won’t progress in a difficult direction for you. Yeah. Yeah. So here’s, here’s a piece of news, um, founded on filter. I think I saw it a marijuana moment yesterday.

Joe Moore: But, um, the Alaska campaign to legalize psychedelics is gathering signatures finally. Amazing. So they kind of took [00:49:00] the next step, um, and they need to collect 35,000 signatures. So there’s a, a lot of activities required, I think after the conference that they had. Um, what was that called? Uh, maybe Northern Lights or something.

Joe Moore: Arctic Lights or something there. Arctic Lights. Yeah. Yeah. Like after that I think they got a lot of really good momentum. I, I really thought about going, but I just couldn’t like in good conscience go before Burning Man. That seemed like absurd. Um, but it sounded amazing. Everybody had a really great time, um, and, you know, got to educate Alaska in some really important ways.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah. And do you know much about what they’re doing there?

Kyle Buller: Just a little bit like when we saw them present down in Denver, um, and hearing about like the campaign and they were feeling really confident, um, about like getting those signatures and like their initial kind of like polling seemed, um, yeah, pretty positive that they would be able to, [00:50:00] to pass this.

Kyle Buller: So, um, fingers crossed, that’d be really amazing. Um, if they’re able to get all those signatures right. And it’s a, it’s a, it’s kind of like a legalization initiative,

Joe Moore: right? Right. Somewhat. Similar to Colorado and Oregon, um, but also like a little different, just kind of popping it up on screen here. I like this here.

Joe Moore: Traditional healers would also be protected for spiritual, or sorry, ceremonial spiritual or cultural use of plant medicines through legal exemptions to state laws. So I think that would be really, really excellent. Um, that’d be awesome. I think, uh, they’re lowering kind of the civil fine for public consumption to a hundred dollars to kind of make sense, I guess.

Joe Moore: Um, especially if you want to keep people safe. Uh, and they’re, um, yeah, so it says right here, yeah, they’re building off Colorado, which is great. Um, so I, I’m excited. I would really be excited to see how they’re gonna do it, [00:51:00] um, and, and roll it out and, um, see how they’re tracking to collecting those 35,000 signatures.

Joe Moore: Um, it’s a big job, but it’s important.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. What’s the total population in Alaska? Do you know?

Joe Moore: No.

Kyle Buller: I’m like, I wonder how much, like you said, 35,000. Yeah. I wonder how like that is compared to like the just main population. Yeah. Three

Joe Moore: quarters of a million. Hmm. So it’s a big proportion still. Yeah. You know, but you know, thankfully there’s only a handful of big cities that they could work on and bring it through.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think it’s, um, it’s fascinating to see how this might shake out. Um, I’m excited. Um, so yeah, I, I heard, uh, from some other people in, um, New Mexico that there’s interest in other things beyond mushrooms too. Hmm. So, you know, feeling really [00:52:00] amazing about getting mushrooms through, like through the state process, the legislative process as opposed to like a voter ballot initiative.

Joe Moore: But then they’re like, oh. There’s all these other really amazing things that we could contribute too, and like how should we think about that? Like what do you think about that? Like it’s amazing that it’s happening in my book, but it’s also like, it’s complicated ’cause it feels

Kyle Buller: they’re doing it more kind of like in a behavioral health model, right?

Joe Moore: Um,

Joe Moore: like they’re not doing as robust decrim, if that’s what you mean. Is that what you meant? Meant there?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Or like needing a, a diagnosis because they’re really trying to treat like mental health with, with their bill. Like I haven’t, but they can

Joe Moore: expand. They New Mexico can really expand the scope of it through adding conditions.

Joe Moore: Gotcha. So, you know, I was able to talk a bunch about chronic pain conditions and they were really excited about that. And, um, they’re actually, um, doing some [00:53:00] trials, I think in the near term with ketamine in group to help validate. Psilocybin ingroup for their stake care. Oh, sweet. Which would radically drop their clinical care costs.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Which would be huge. Um, and when does like all this go online? Did they talk about like a rollout of like when they’ve got a date?

Joe Moore: It’s about two years from now. Okay. I think, think they said like December 27 or something like that. 2027. I could be wrong on that, but about two years. So similar to all the other project.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Everybody else’s rollout dates. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I think, oh, here’s another good one. Um, it looks like, um, other universities are picking up this, uh, traumatic brain injury conversation, which I think is, you know, long past due. Um, share my screen again here. If you’re watching, you can see it.

Joe Moore: Um. Uh, yeah, this tool is [00:54:00] interesting. Sometimes, sometimes it works amazing. Sometimes it does not. That’s not the right one. Come on. Um, but it looks like, uh, in British Columbia, they’re gonna start actually looking at Oh, amazing. Um, right. It’d be really cool. Um, and I think, uh, we’re gonna see all sorts of interesting stuff come from that.

Joe Moore: So I, you remember the Nolan Williams Ibogaine study that we’ve chatted about a bunch, right? Yeah. Where, yeah. Um, where I think a number of vets kind of took the, I think it was IBOGAINE and five M-E-O-D-M-T protocol, either at, uh, I think it was all at Beyond. No, that’s not right. Amio. Amio. And, um, I think it’s interesting they’re including five at this point, but the people just.

Joe Moore: Their brain imaging looked so much better at the end of the protocol, and this was done with Stanford, um, published highly. Dr. Nolan, Nolan Williams is like hyping it like crazy, but um, but yeah, now it [00:55:00] looks like there’s more interest in, um. Treating concussions and I had that big concussion a few years ago.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So I’m really, really excited about this. Um, yeah. Impaired neuroplasticity, so we know psychedelics can kind of help with that. Um, yeah. Reducing inflammation with classical psychedelics. Um, Chuck Nichols, Dave Nichols kid who’s like kind of an amazing researcher in his own right and is like wildly intelligent.

Joe Moore: Um, he’s kind of like the world leader on, uh, inflammation with psychedelics and he says psilocybin is a really good anti-inflammatory. LSD is a really crappy anti. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So like with the microdosing topic, it makes sense why some people have such a strong, well, from that perspective alone have such a strong response.

Joe Moore: And it could just be that it’s an anti-inflammatory thing.

Kyle Buller: That’s interesting. I wonder how much of an anti-inflammatory iboga is, or ibogaine, um.

Joe Moore: Right. Um, that would be a really interesting thing to know. [00:56:00] Yeah. Um, and I, one. Biggest things that ties into this is the, um, what are the molecules that are getting banned right now?

Joe Moore: God, um, uh, the DEA is working on these two really obscure molecules, um, Hamilton Morris and SSDP oh groups. Is it like

Kyle Buller: DOC or D-O-I-D-O-I-D-O-I

Joe Moore: and DOC. Thank you. Um, yeah. And these molecules, I think DOI in particular is showing like exponentially more anti-inflammatory response in people at a sub psychedelic dose than corticosteroids.

Joe Moore: So like a crazy high response rate. So if the DEA makes that illegal, um, or higher up the schedule chain, it makes it more expensive to research that stuff and, and not awesome. Um, but you know, imagine just people having to take less steroids. I think that would be just an overall good thing, right? Yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: Totally.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I’m excited for more of this like concussion [00:57:00] research to come out too. ’cause it’s like, yeah, you had your big experience a few years ago. Like I just had some minor, uh, head injuries over the summer. Um, and I was started to look up, um, some of this research and it didn’t seem like there was really great protocols.

Kyle Buller: Like some subjective reports came from people dosing. Like weeks after the concussion. And then, you know, I think there’s that question. It’s like, when do you start dosing? Do you start dosing as soon as possible? Do you, do you wait a little bit for the brain to kind of like, settle back down, um, and then, and then start dosing?

Kyle Buller: And so yeah, I was trying to do some research on it and it didn’t seem like there were very specific protocols around that. So I’m excited to, you know, uh, see more of that stuff. I mean, obviously being into some of these sports with, uh, high ri, high injury risk, you’re like, hmm. You know, like having concussions are not fun.

Kyle Buller: You know,

Joe Moore: I considered going into the thunderdome at Burning Man this year, and I think my [00:58:00] final conclusion was I don’t know that I can afford more brain injuries right now. Um, you know, I, so here’s, here’s a fun one. Um, and I’m gonna throw up and we can kind of like work towards closing two more. Um, where is it?

Joe Moore: Yeah, our friends, like we included these guys in our, um, TV show a while back. Yeah. Um, yeah, like, I don’t know that this is necessarily news, but they, they kind of showed up on our radar yesterday. Um, and they do this drug MEAI, um, and they’re bringing that through and that’s when it hits like a satiation trigger.

Joe Moore: And, um, I, it sounded like it had a really amazing, safe profile. It felt pleasant to use and it helped people stop drinking. And I think the article I saw the other day was around, um, overeating. And so if you hit, if you can eat this pill, um, it might help you just not overeat and, um, [00:59:00] similar to not over drink, you know?

Joe Moore: So I think that’s like a really cool idea and I’m excited to see what happens there. Um. Why is this psychedelic news? Um, what was the guy’s name? Mark Hayden, former Maps Canada lead was part of their team and I think he, he had some really interesting things to say about it. And it, I think the experience is something along the lines of, um, uh, how to put it,

Kyle Buller: I think they said low dose MDMA, like they said something like

Joe Moore: that.

Kyle Buller: Like when you’re using MEI for drinking, it was like you would feel satiated after like a drink or two. And then like, but if you took it alone and didn’t use it in combination, um, with drinking, they kind of described it as like a low dose of like MDMA.

Joe Moore: Mm. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: I think that’s fascinating. So, because I remember after all those interviews, I’m like, I kinda wanna try this stuff Sounds really fascinating.

Kyle Buller: Just for like, not for the drinking piece, but just for like the low dose of [01:00:00] MDMA.

Joe Moore: So Lindy is asking for us to link to a study. I don’t know. Um, which one, if you wanna look up Stanford Ibogaine brain injury. You’re gonna find that one if that’s the one we were talking about. Um, so this is like kinda the final bit of news we can leave folks with, but the Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommends iboga for therapeutic use.

Joe Moore: So it seems like the advisory board, um, that’s kind of contributing towards the government making its rules is saying Yes. IGAs. Next. I heard some inside stuff that it’s looking positive. I don’t want to give any details. Um, so I promised a little bit of an nomin and then, and then Jesus anonymity. Um, and check this out, it looks like, um, they’re really recommending compliance with the Nagoya protocol, which would be really novel and really good.

Joe Moore: Nagoya protocol is an international agreement, I think. Almost every country signed it except for the United States. So it’s like legally [01:01:00] required in other, in many other countries. Um, and, uh, as of right now, I think the only only known company that has Nagoya compliant IGA is, uh, AMBIO. They claim that pretty loudly and proudly, uh, um, but it, it could imp improve, increase the pressure on the markets to become more Nagoya compliant.

Joe Moore: So it’s kind of like built in reciprocity to genetic heritage. So like, do you have an agreement with the country and the, and the people from where this is from to say, yeah, like, you’re gonna give us a certain amount of your revenues? That feels fair. And you have it in writing and there’s, I looked it up on um, GPT the other day.

Joe Moore: There was a few other kind of like hit points for like, what is a Nagoya compliant agreement, but there’s no international authority that certifies it. There’s nobody that just like rubber stamps it, but there are like third party companies that kind of validate it. Yeah. Um, [01:02:00] so it’s an interesting thing to live with, uh, and live through, but I don’t know.

Joe Moore: Any thoughts on this one?

Kyle Buller: I was actually gonna ask you if you heard any updates on this. ’cause I did think, I just saw some posts about this and I didn’t really get to read into it ’cause I was, uh, teaching today. But, um, yeah, I mean it’s exciting. Uh, and it’s always like, I always find it like really interesting, like how IGA is getting like the spotlight right now.

Kyle Buller: ’cause you know, it is like one of the more on the riskier side, right? Of like cardiac issues. Um, so it’s fascinating like how much coverage and attention Iboga is getting and Iboga is getting. Um, but also really exciting ’cause it seems like the potential is huge. Um, here. So

Joe Moore: I like this quote from our friend Josh Cappel, uh, founding partner in Vicente.

Joe Moore: He says, unfortunately the program is not legal under federal law. Um, this is the Natural Medicine Health Act thing, like the psilocybin program and whatnot. Um, so it’s not legal under federal law, but there’s more than a zero chance that we can import iboga from [01:03:00] Gabon. Uh, Colorado would. The federal government to step in on this very nuanced, um, topic and authorize that, which is, you know, quite an interesting conversation to be having now.

Joe Moore: So, um, yeah. Yeah. Um,

Kyle Buller: yeah. And is it appropriate to like, grow Iboga here? Probably not. Or the climate’s probably

Joe Moore: not even great for it, but, right. ’cause it’s a rainforest that it grows in realistically. Are there other ways of doing it? That’s an interesting question. Like how can we do an end around on the federal law thing?

Joe Moore: That’s an interesting question. So there’s, um, yeah, there’s a lot, especially like if, if the primary objective is import is what’s illegal, bringing it from outside the country into Colorado is the illegal act. Um. Like possessing it still in Colorado is illegal under federal law, but you have state law protecting you, which is interesting.

Joe Moore: Right, right. Um, yeah, so it’s a whole fascinating legal situation that we’re dealing [01:04:00] with. And, um, there’s plenty of other fun, exciting, legal situations We’re also dealing with the same time, so who knows? Um, yeah. Yeah. Like all of a sudden IGA could be legal federally in two weeks who like, because it, you know, the,

Joe Moore: I don’t want to make too many dark comments, but Yeah. Like the science is there for all sorts of other things, and why isn’t it? Why isn’t it here for this? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Anyway, uh, Lindy’s asking about the anti-inflammatory stuff. I don’t have the paper. Chuck Nichols, Charles Nichols, university of Louisiana is the researcher.

Joe Moore: Check out his papers. Um, he’s got a number of papers on anti-inflammatory effects of psychedelics. So a lot of good stuff there. And those drugs, um, D-O-I-D-O-C, they last too long. That’s why we don’t use them. Like, you know, if you wanna be like 24

Kyle Buller: hours or something like that, like the halflife is pretty ridiculous on it.

Joe Moore: Super high. Yeah. And if you wanna be high that long, just like, it’s probably more, far more [01:05:00] pleasant to just use acid for a couple times. Like, and you could turn it off like D-O-I-D-O-C, like good god. Like we just don’t use that stuff. But I’m excited to see what medicine can be made of that to help people who are in chronic pain and like, let’s see what, not only that kind of level of anti-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory stuff, um, happening, but pair that with neuroplasticity and what kind of change can we have.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Maybe that’s what’s happening with high-dose mushrooms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well thanks for staying over with me and, um, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Thanks everybody for tuning in and doing this and yeah, it’s been quite a while since we’ve kind of, uh, riffed together, so it’s fun and hopefully we have, uh, more time to be doing this.

Kyle Buller: So

Joe Moore: yeah, let’s bring guests in to be like guest commentators too. Yeah, and again, please support us over@navigatorspsychedelicstoday.com slash navigators. We would love for you to be part of our community and support us and we can give you exclusive content and much more access to the, [01:06:00] um, you know, in-person events.

Joe Moore: We’ll be running and book club, film club and more so expect news. We’re gonna roll it out in phases. Um, but you can sign up now at our base membership level and we would love to see you in there. And, um, thank you Kyle.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, thank you Joe. And thank you everybody. Till next time.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

August 20, 2025August 20, 2025

The Psychedelics & Pain Symposium 2025

The Psychedelics & Pain Symposium 2025 is the only conference highlighting past, current, and ongoing investigations into how psychedelics can treat chronic pain and related physical conditions, such as neurodegenerative, autoimmune, and infection-acquired chronic illness.

Founded in 2022, each year the Symposium highlights top research from around the world, this year including findings and patient stories about phantom-limb pain, fibromyalgia, Complex Regional Pain Syndrome, Long-COVID, cluster headache, spinal cord injury, neuropathic pain, cancer-induced bone pain, and other physical conditions. Psychedelics have shown unique promise and enduring relief for many conditions where standard-of-care medications are often ineffective. Researchers frequently share early study results, giving our audience advanced insight into the efficacy and mechanisms of action involved in providing patients with profound relief.

As evidence builds, patient communities are sharing their real-world results & protocols for self-treating debilitating conditions, while building best practices for ensuring safe and effective delivery. The Symposium includes multiple in-person case studies describing their personal experiences in using psychedelic medicines, their previous history of other interventions, and how psychedelics have made striking improvements in their quality of life.

A full recording of the event will be available to all paid attendees and to those who couldn’t attend during the event time.

August 20, 2025

Growing Attention To Psychedelics For Pain, Physical & Neurological Conditions

By Kevin Lenaburg and Court Wing

Psychedelics can be powerful treatments for chronic pain and other physical or neurological conditions. There is increasing awareness of these expanded uses for psychedelics, and this significantly broadens the range of people who are interested in and will benefit from access to psychedelics. Multiple universities and companies are conducting psychedelic trials for various conditions that produce primary or secondary chronic pain, including fibromyalgia, phantom-limb pain, pain from spinal cord injury, Lupus, peripheral neuropathy, Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS), neuropathic pain, Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), Lyme disease, Long-COVID, Parkinson’s, and others.

How Psychedelics Work For Pain

Mounting evidence shows that psychedelics can influence the biological, psychological, and social factors that may contribute to complex chronic pain. With so many diverse conditions showing positive response to psychedelics, there likely are multiple underlying transdiagnostic mechanisms of action at play. These are not single-factor drugs. Here are several of the key ways that have been proposed for how psychedelics reduce pain:

Structural neuroplasticity: both patients with depression and those with some kinds of chronic pain show significant decreases in volume in brain structures responsible for mood and pain management. Psychedelics have been shown to generate regrowth in the cortex and likely the peripheral nervous system, allowing for greater capacity for relief.

Non-opioid pain inhibition via the 5HT2A receptor: the target of classic psychedelic psychoactivity. This is the only known serotonin receptor that creates persisting descending inhibition past nerve damage, strongly suggesting a direct impact on pain signals.

Anti-inflammatory: some psychedelic compounds have up to 800 times the anti-inflammatory efficacy of corticosteroids. Psychedelics may operate as “homeostatic autoregulators,” bringing the body’s functions back to their healthy default state.

Cortical reorganization: chronic pain is often a maladaptive output of the brain, creating a constant alarm signal with pain occurring absent an injury or long past injury healing. Psychedelics may reorganize these entrenched pathways that have become sensitized to all incoming nerve signals.

Critical period reopening: psychedelics may cause significant “metaplastic” windows following the acute dosing phase, allowing the nervous system to achieve a period of high receptivity and associative learning.

Psychosocial reframing: chronic pain often becomes more than a physical condition — it can shape a person’s identity. Pain may create a psychological and physical vicious cycle where pain worsens mood, and low mood heightens pain sensitivity. Psychedelics may help break this cycle by reconnecting people with a deeper sense of self, one not defined by pain. This shift in perspective can support new coping strategies, greater resilience, and a reduced likelihood that stress or emotion will trigger pain flares.

Other potential mechanisms: while there is a growing body of evidence to suggest how psychedelics affect those living with chronic pain, little is known about how psychedelics work in the treatment of cluster headache and other headache diseases, despite mounting proof of efficacy. There is more research on psilocybin and cluster headache than on other pain conditions; however, the way psilocybin treats cluster headache is believed to be quite different from other chronic pain conditions.

Growing Attention

Here are some highlights of recent coverage in this area and ways to support this trend or learn more.

MAPS Psychedelic Science 2025

This year’s conference had multiple panels discussing how psychedelics can be effective treatments for pain, physical, and neurological conditions. There was a packed room for the Psychedelic & Pain Association’s session entitled “Expanding the Lens: Mechanisms, Models & Modes – Transdiagnostic Potential of Psychedelic Medicines.” This talk highlighted how psychedelic substances work across the body-mind, allowing them to have impact in a broader condition set. Watch HERE. There were also multiple community meetups where people shared their personal stories of using psychedelics for back pain, migraine and cluster headache, and other types of chronic pain.

South by Southwest (SXSW)

This year’s gathering featured a session from the Psychedelics & Pain Association on psilocybin for Fibromyalgia, Phantom-limb Pain & Post-treatment Lyme Disease.

Watch HERE.

The Psychedelics & Pain Association submission for 2026 builds on last year’s talk, sharing research on psilocybin for Parkinson’s and low back pain, as well as DMT for cluster headache. SXSW uses community based voting to get talks onto the stage. To support sessions that cover the expanded use of psychedelics in physical medicine, click on the session links, then click the heart icon. Creating a SXSW account takes less than a minute. (Voting closes on August 24, 2025.)

From Practice to Proof: Psychedelics for Physical Conditions

Rewiring the Brain: Psilocybin and Neurological Healing

Ibogaine: A Hail Mary for Pro Athletes with Head Trauma

The Science and Stories of Women’s Psychedelic Use

Designing for Ibogaine: Healing, Risk, & Radical Possibility

Online Symposium for Patients, Facilitators & Clinicians to Learn from Global Experts

A deep dive into this topic happens annually with the REMAP Therapeutics Psychedelics & Pain Symposium, co-hosted with the Psychedelics & Pain Association. Held on September 27 & 28, 2025, this online conference features presentations from researchers, clinicians, patients, and advocates leading the field of psychedelics for pain and physical conditions. Registration is offered on a sliding scale and all sessions will be recorded and available afterwards on the Psychedelics Today platform for registrants.

People living with pain are increasingly using and reporting remarkable effects with psychedelics. There is an incredible opportunity to reduce physical suffering and improve health. Growing research and attention to these expanded uses of psychedelics broaden the community invested in the positive progress of the psychedelic field.

August 15, 2025April 14, 2026

Toad, Truth, and the Trouble with 5-MeO: Why Bufo alvarius Needs Our Protection

The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius, formerly Bufo alvarius) produces 5-MeO-DMT in its skin. Demand for that molecule now pressures a fragile animal. Retreats and celebrity stories fuel it. The result is stress on a wild species and its habitat. This piece is pro-facts, pro-ecology, and pro-ethics. Fund population science. Stop pressuring wild toads. Use synthetic instead.

Facts, not myths

These toads spend most of the year underground. They breed when summer rains come. They use temporary pools, canals, and other water sources. Counts swing. In some years people see many toads; in other years almost none. Rain, landscaping, and artificial water drive much of that change. A summer boom is not proof of health.

There is no verified ancient Indigenous practice of smoking toad secretions. The modern practice began in the 1980s after a self-published pamphlet by “Albert Most” (Ken Nelson) explained how to collect and smoke them. A later “revival” story tied to Seri/Comcaac people is false.

The pressures on the toad

Poaching is a problem. Capturing and “milking” toads stresses and displaces them; many die trying to return to their home ranges. But poaching is not the only pressure. Habitat is lost to development and water diversion. Road kill of amphibians here is substantial. Invasive bullfrogs prey on natives. Monsoon timing shifts with climate change. UV-B harms eggs and larvae. Chytrid fungus spreads fast and kills populations.

Two points:

• Sourcing claims are not verifiable in an underground market. Some try to handle animals carefully and release them where found, but illicit supply chains don’t work this way. Buyers cannot verify provenance.
• Good intentions can still cause harm. Moving amphibians or holding them in bins spreads chytrid. Ad-hoc captive holding drifts toward CAFO-like setups: crowded, unsanitary, and cruel. Toad tourism also adds lights, roads, and people to breeding zones, raising mortality.

Cartels have noticed demand. Reports from Mexico describe cartel-linked night harvesting and trafficking of toads and their secretions. When a wildlife product gets hot, professional exploiters move in and out-compete “ethical” claims.

Are toads endangered? We don’t know
We lack a modern, range-wide population study. The IUCN still lists I. alvarius as “Least Concern,” based on a 2004 assessment. California treats the species as extirpated. New Mexico lists it for protection. Arizona restricts collection. NatureServe calls the global rank “Secure,” but state ranks vary. We need data.

Next steps? Commission a government-backed, university-partnered survey across Arizona, New Mexico, Sonora, and Sinaloa. Map key breeding sites. Set baselines. Update status. Then wildlife agencies can use standard tools: habitat protection, permit rules, and, if needed, listings.

Toad vs. tryptamine

Chemically, 5-MeO-DMT is 5-MeO-DMT. Synthetic is the same molecule. Surveys and naturalistic studies show high rates of “mystical-type” experience from both synthetic and toad-sourced material. The animal does not add an extra essence beyond the molecule.

Toad secretions are a mix of 5-MeO-DMT and other alkaloids, including bufotenin, which may increase cardiovascular risk and body load. Ratios vary. Dosing is inconsistent. Synthetic avoids extra alkaloids and allows precise dosing.

Cost and scale also favor synthetic. Markets show routes from low-cost materials, even melatonin. There is no ecological or economic case for milking wild toads for a compound we can make.

A fair critique of synthetics—and the answer

Making fine chemicals produces waste. In regulated pharmaceuticals, ~5–50 kg of waste is generated per kilogram of product. Under prohibition, clandestine labs may dump solvents and reagents. Waste is a real problem. That does not justify wildlife extraction. The answer is regulated, above-ground production with enforceable environmental and worker safety standards. Decriminalization works

Why blanket bans are not the fix

Parts of the U.S. already restrict or ban collection. California treats the species as gone. Drug-war logic tends to make markets more dangerous. It does not solve root problems. Do this: reduce demand for toad-sourced material, improve lawful access to synthetic, enforce wildlife laws, and fund population science. If the data show a decline, apply the normal endangered-species rules. We need numbers and action.

The market problem

Some claim to harvest “ethically.” Buyers can’t verify. As demand rises for 5, the cheapest supply wins. Predatory actors keep “blood toads” in bins or a chain link fence. They are harvested repeatedly and moved between sites. Disease spreads. Welfare collapses. Buyers cannot easily distinguish between them at the time of purchase.

What you can do

• Choose synthetic, not toad. The experience comes from the molecule.
• Say so, publicly. Inform facilitators and retreat operators that you will not purchase toad-sourced materials. Push sellers to drop it.
• Support field work. The Tucson Herpetological Society’s Sonoran Desert Toad Fund backs monitoring and research.
• Read credible work. Start with Robert A. Villa’s biocultural history and conservation analysis, and Anny Ortiz’s myth-busting on “ancestral” claims.
• Educate. Informed consent should include ecosystem impacts. Share what you learn.

A personal note

I’ve worked in psychedelics for years. I don’t want a species’ blood on our hands. Our search for healing can cause harm. We should face that. We have a clean option here. Use the synthetic molecule. Leave the toad alone. If these tools connect us to nature, our methods should also honor it.

Editor’s note / Call to action

If this matters to you, donate to the Tucson Herpetological Society’s Sonoran Desert Toad Fund and share this article with peers who may not know the stakes. Choosing synthetic 5-MeO-DMT today helps keep wild toads in the desert tomorrow. Let’s work towards a safe supply for humans and toads.

July 24, 2025July 25, 2025

Alan Davis – Psychedelic Research and Patient Safety at Ohio State & Exploring Ibogaine’s Potential

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Alan Davis, Associate Professor at Ohio State University, to explore the evolving landscape of Ibogaine research and its therapeutic potential.

Alan offers a deep dive into the Iboga Patient Survey, a groundbreaking initiative collecting real-world data on the safety and efficacy of Ibogaine—particularly for those struggling with substance use disorders and mental health challenges. The conversation sheds light on the need for rigorous, community-informed research that could pave the way toward FDA approval and increased access for patients, including veterans dealing with trauma.

They also discuss the complexities of clinical trials, the tension between state and federal regulations, and the growing influence of corporate interests in psychedelic research. Alan emphasizes the importance of ethical transparency, community collaboration, and maintaining scientific integrity as the field grows.

If you’re curious about the intersection of psychedelic medicine, clinical research, and patient safety, this is a must-listen episode.

Topics Covered

00:00 – Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:53 – Reflecting on COVID-19’s Psychological Impact
01:29 – Introducing the Iboga Patient Survey
01:46 – History and Goals of Ibogaine Research
02:41 – Challenges in Conducting Clinical Trials
03:14 – Importance of Real-World Safety Data
06:55 – Personal Interest in Ibogaine
08:56 – Veterans and Trauma: A Personal Connection
10:53 – Reintegration and Emotional Processing
15:29 – Survey Participation and Accessibility
18:25 – Building Partnerships and Overcoming Challenges
21:06 – Ensuring Safety and Transparency
31:49 – Community and Academic Collaboration
33:06 – Survey Design and Future Research Directions
36:50 – Momentum in Psychedelic Research
37:48 – State vs. Federal Regulation
39:23 – Challenges in Psychedelic Treatment
43:01 – Corporate Interests and Scientific Objectivity
47:20 – Ketamine and Collaborative Research
51:56 – Ibogaine Patient Survey
57:55 – Psychedelics and Pain Research
01:07:22 – Conclusion and Future Directions

July 15, 2025July 15, 2025

Erica Rex: Scientific Integrity, Psychedelic Research, and the Religious Leader Study

In this episode, Joe Moore speaks with award-winning science journalist Erica Rex about her personal experience participating in psychedelic research, her upcoming book Seeing What Is There: My Search for Sanity in the Psychedelic Era, and the complex story behind the recently published Religious Leader Psilocybin Study from Johns Hopkins and NYU.

They examine:

Erica’s firsthand experience as a participant in the original 2012 study that helped launch Roland Griffiths’ prominence in psychedelic science.

The goals and outcomes of the Religious Leader Study, which sought to explore how psilocybin might impact religious leaders’ effectiveness and connection to their communities.

The methodological and ethical problems that plagued the study.

The influence of perennialist frameworks and the limitations of measures like the Mystical Experience Questionnaire (MEQ).

Broader concerns about the infiltration of religious ideology and lack of rigor in psychedelic science.

A deep critique of the institutional systems that allowed flawed research processes to go unchecked — and how these patterns risk repeating the mistakes of the 1960s psychedelic wave.

Joe and Erica also dive into how modern psychedelic science struggles to reconcile subjective experience, spirituality, and the reductionist standards of academic research. They discuss Matt Johnson’s paper critiquing “psychedelic consciousness” framing and explore whether our current scientific tools are capable of capturing the depth of psychedelic experience.

Erica’s forthcoming book, slated for release in January 2026, blends memoir, neuroscience, and social critique. It offers a critical insider’s view of the psychedelic renaissance—its promise, pitfalls, and the ways it mirrors broader systemic issues in science and culture.

June 20, 2025

PS 25 Morning Show – Day Three

Joe Moore and Anne Philippi (New Health Club) are hosts of the PS25 Morning Show! This one features Cesar Marin, AnneClaire Stapleton, Dennis Walker, Jonathan Sabbagh, Tom Feegel and Philip Graf von Drechsel!

And thats a wrap for PS25!!

June 19, 2025June 19, 2025

PS 25 Morning Show – Day One

Joe Moore and Anne Philippi (New Health Club) are hosts of the PS25 Morning Show! This one features Dee Dee Goldpaugh, LCSW and Tommaso Barba, PhDC!

We talk about all things Sex and Psychedelics!

June 3, 2025

Statement Regarding The Church of the Sacred Synthesis

In the last few weeks, Psychedelics Today has been in conversation with leadership at the Church of Sacred Synthesis about their sacrament and their perspective on the critiques that were leveled against them.

In light of these recent discussions surrounding the Church of Sacred Synthesis in connection with the findings published in the preprint of the research publication by Usona, we recognize the importance of caution and context when publishing about clinical judgments based on preliminary data, like preprints. Preprints are valuable for early dissemination but lack the rigorous peer review needed to confirm findings. Relying on unverified reports can lead to misconceptions. Due diligence, careful consideration, and peer-reviewed evidence are crucial for the foundation for clinical or scientific conclusions.

At Psychedelics Today, we acknowledge that we could have presented this story in better adherence to scientific standards and by including the voices of the church leaders as the conversation was developing. We believe we should have made efforts to give church leadership a platform to comment from their perspective. We see this as a learning experience and remain committed to thorough, balanced reporting and fostering open dialogue within the community and plan to continually improve how we show up with integrity and balanced perspectives in the psychedelic space.

Links
The Church of the Sacred Synthesis

May 13, 2025May 16, 2025

Dr Simon Ruffell – Other Ways of Knowing

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore speaks with Dr. Simon Ruffell, a psychiatrist from London who is also training in the Shipibo healing tradition of the Peruvian Amazon. After working in psychiatry for years, Dr. Ruffell began to feel frustrated with the limits of modern treatments. As a result, he turned to plant medicine and Indigenous healing.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Ruffell shares how Western psychiatry and traditional medicine can work together. He explains the Shipibo idea that illness shows up on three levels: spiritual, emotional, and physical. Healing, he says, must reach all three. Moreover, he describes how ignoring these levels—especially in psychedelic work—can lead to harm.

Dr. Ruffell also discusses the importance of training, trust, and cross-cultural respect. He believes that blending Indigenous and Western methods may lead to safer and more effective psychedelic care. To support this, he founded Onaya Science and Onaya.io, which work closely with Amazonian healers. Notably, their early research with military veterans is showing strong results. In fact, 84% of participants no longer met the criteria for PTSD six months after treatment.

This conversation is both thoughtful and practical. If you’re a therapist, researcher, or someone exploring psychedelic healing, you’ll find insights here. Dr. Ruffell reminds us that we don’t need to choose between science and spirit. Instead, we can learn from both.

https://www.drsimonruffell.com/

https://www.onaya.io/

https://onaya.science/

April 24, 2025April 24, 2025

Psychedelic Science 2025: A Convergence of Data, Discovery, and Integration

On June 16, 2025, thousands of researchers, clinicians, therapists, policymakers, and advocates will converge in Denver, Colorado, for Psychedelic Science 2025: The Integration, the world’s most important gathering focused on psychedelic medicine and research. Hosted by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), this year’s theme—“The Integration”—is both a guiding principle and a rallying cry: to unite the diverse domains of psychedelic inquiry and experience into a coherent, impactful movement for healing and transformation.

For mental health practitioners, PS2025 offers an unparalleled opportunity to stay at the forefront of psychedelic-assisted care. Luminaries like the creator of Internal Family Systems, Dick Schwartz, will be leading workshops integrating traditional therapeutic modalities with psychedelic-assisted ones. With Denver coming online with state-sanctioned therapeutic centers offering psilocybin for treatment, there is no better time or place for this conference. As these therapies move from trials into mainstream clinical practice, practitioners are able to enter a new era of evidence-based treatment and responsibility. With keynotes, panels, and immersive sessions covering therapy models, integration strategies, ethics, training, and cultural competency, PS2025 is a must-attend event for anyone delivering or preparing to deliver psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Spanning five days—June 16 to 20—PS2025 begins with two days of workshops, the uniquely psychedelic film festival Cinematheque, followed by three days of keynotes, panels, and data-driven presentations across 14 tracks. The Therapy, Trials, and Studies tracks will serve as hubs for practitioners seeking clinical insight and peer-reviewed data.

Sessions in the Therapy Track will explore the nuances of ethical psychedelic care—from dual roles and boundaries to trauma-informed frameworks and consent models. Speakers like Joseph McCowan will emphasize culturally competent approaches that avoid retraumatization and expand access to underserved populations.

The Trials Track will provide updates on Phase 2 and 3 research, including psilocybin for MDD, and MDMA for PTSD. With new scrutiny on trial protocols and FDA pathways, practitioners will gain clarity on what constitutes safe, legal, and effective treatment as this space matures.

The Black Liberation Track, led by thought leaders such as Dr. Darron Smith and Charlotte James, centers on psychedelic healing in the context of systemic oppression and generational trauma. These sessions will address how practitioners can offer culturally responsive care, build trust in marginalized communities, and decolonize therapeutic practices.

Meanwhile, the Veterans Track will highlight the use of psychedelics in treating PTSD, moral injury, and chronic pain. Veteran advocates like Jesse Gould of Heroic Hearts Project and Dr. Bob Koffman, a retired Navy psychiatrist, will speak to the unique clinical considerations of working with military and first responder populations, and the protocols needed to support their long-term healing.

MAPS founder Rick Doblin’s curated “Doblin Track” provides a 30-year arc of context for today’s practitioner: how we got here, what’s next, and how to build a future of care rooted in both science and wisdom traditions.

Practitioners will also benefit from sessions in the Policy Track, which unpacks how changing state and federal regulations affect clinical access, credentialing, and insurance.

For practitioners stepping into this next chapter of care, Psychedelic Science 2025 isn’t just a conference—it’s a catalyst for evolution in practice, connection, and purpose.

We hope that you’ll join us in Denver this June. Use promo code PSYT15 for 15% off registration on all conference passes, including our Practitioner Pass.

Learn more and register by visiting psychedelicscience.org.

April 8, 2025April 11, 2025

Jean-Francois Sobiecki – African Psychoactive Plants & Phytoalchemy

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with South African ethnobotanist and healer Jean-François Sobiecki to explore the rich and largely underrecognized world of African psychoactive plants. With over two decades of fieldwork and research, Jean-François sheds light on the traditional use of these plants in healing, divination, and spiritual practices across Southern Africa.

Topics covered include:

Jean-François’s early inspirations and the ancestral roots of his herbal knowledge
His discovery and documentation of 306 African psychoactive plant species
The ritual use of Ubuwalu (dream-enhancing emetic infusions) and their role in personal transformation
How vomiting, dietary restrictions, and sensory isolation are used as part of initiation processes
Cross-cultural parallels between Southern African and Amazonian plant healing traditions
The underexplored use of psychoactive plants to treat mental health conditions like schizophrenia and hysteria
Ethical fieldwork, indigenous knowledge protection, and the dangers of overharvesting sacred plants
Visions for healing and conservation gardens in Africa and the role these plants could play in global mental health

Jean-François shares moving stories of his 15-year mentorship with a Northern Sotho diviner and healer, Letti Ponnya, and how she introduced him to African “plant teacher” medicines. His message is clear: Africa has a deep, sophisticated, and scientifically underappreciated tradition of psychoactive plant use that deserves recognition, respect, and further study.

📘 Get the book:
African Psychoactive Plants: Journeys in Phytoalchemy

🌐 Learn more at:
phytoalchemy.co.za

📝 Related reading:
➡️ African Psychoactive Plants: Journeys in Phytoalchemy – Chacruna

April 1, 2025April 11, 2025

Fayzan Rab – Emory University

In this episode, Joe interviews Fayzan Rab, an MD candidate (when we recorded) at Emory University with a background in tech at Google and a focus on the intersection of psychedelics, spirituality, and public health. Fayzan shares Emory’s unique approach to psychedelic studies, emphasizing spiritual health and the lived religious and existential aspects of psychedelic experiences—what he and his team call “SERT” (Spiritual, Existential, Religious, Theological).

The conversation explores Fayzan’s collaboration with health economist Elliot Marseille on economic modeling for psilocybin therapy, including their estimate that over 5 million Americans could be medically eligible. He shares insights into the policy challenges around payer systems and the importance of preparing implementation strategies before FDA approval.

Fayzan also discusses his groundbreaking research on Muslim perspectives on psychedelics—revealing surprising openness, complex spiritual tensions, and a strong interest in integrating these substances into healing and faith-based frameworks. He highlights the need for inclusive infrastructure and upcoming work with clergy to deepen the conversation.

Finally, they explore non-clinical psychedelic use among healthcare workers and entrepreneurs, discussing how psychedelics are being used to address burnout, identity, and life purpose.

This is a powerful episode about interdisciplinary collaboration, cultural sensitivity, and the potential for psychedelics to transform not just individuals—but systems.

Links

Science on Spiritual Health Symposium 2025

Center for Psychedelics and Spirituality – Emory University

February 4, 2025February 4, 2025

How Psychedelics Impact the Mind: Mysticism, Mental Health, and the Future of Psychedelic Research

Psychedelic research is growing rapidly, but how do we study something as subjective as a mystical experience?

In this episode, Joe interviews Josh Lipson, a Ph.D. candidate in clinical psychology at Columbia University, whose research explores the relationship between psychedelics, mystical experiences, and mental health.

He discusses the complexities of studying psychedelics in real-world settings, the role of metaphysical perspectives in research, and why different individuals respond to psychedelics in such varied ways. Lipson shares his personal journey into psychedelic research, the challenges of interdepartmental collaboration, and the evolving landscape of modern psychedelic science.

He also talks about:

The importance of integration after psychedelic experiences
Why mystical experiences may not be the only path to healing
The balance between stability and the chaos psychedelics can introduce
The need for diverse perspectives and ways of knowing in psychedelic research
How psychedelics have shaped global consciousness and cultural perspectives

and more!

Links

Josh-lipson.com

Josh Lipson substack

Lucid.news: Why Psychedelics Don’t Fit The “Drug” Paradigm

December 24, 2024December 30, 2024

Rethinking Addiction and Treatment Models: Is the Recovery Community Ready for Psychedelics?

Psychedelics are going mainstream, but society’s views on addiction and recovery models are still behind. Is the recovery community ready for psychedelics?

In this episode, Joe interviews Dan Ronken: licensed professional counselor and addiction counselor with a private practice in Boulder, CO, called Inclusion Recovery, and lead trainer and facilitator for the Integrative Psychiatry Institute (IPI).

He tells his story of going from a sponsored BMX racer to three stints in rehab before the age of 14, and what he’s learned from his experiences in recovery over the years: that there is a wide range of what ‘in recovery’ actually means, that abstinence-only and 12-step models don’t work for many, that connection and community – and consistency in both – are enormous parts of what actually leads to overcoming an addiction, and more. As recovery communities cautiously begin to talk about psychedelics, he highlights the importance of nuance in understanding addiction, the need for open-mindedness toward new therapeutic approaches, and the need for diverse support networks that welcome discussions around psychedelics.

He talks about:

Inducing alcohol cravings before an intramuscular ketamine shot as a way of using neuroplasticity to rewire the brain’s relationship with alcohol
How Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, benefitted greatly from LSD in the 50s, and how Ronken originally scoffed at such a concept
The growing visibility of psychedelics in popular media, as seen in shows like “Loudermilk” and “Ted Lasso”
The benefits of sober communities coming together for active and healthy activities

and more!

Links

Inclusionrecovery.com

Nature.com: Ketamine can reduce harmful drinking by pharmacologically rewriting drinking memories

Psychedelics and Addiction Recovery: Microdosing and Redefining the Path to Sobriety, featuring: Danielle Nova

Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transendence in Psychotherapy (Suny Series in Transpersonal & Humanistic Psychology), by Stanislav Grof

Hazeldenbettyford.org

Alcoholics Anonymous: The Big Book

Saving Normal: An Insider’s Revolt against Out-of-Control Psychiatric Diagnosis, DSM-5, Big Pharma, and the Medicalization of Ordinary Life, by Allen Frances, M.D.

Psychedelicsinrecovery.org

Imdb.com: Loudermilk

Imdb.com: Ted Lasso

Thephoenix.org

Lucid.news: Bill Wilson, LSD and the Secret Psychedelic History of Alcoholics Anonymous

Distilled Spirits: Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher, and a Hopeless Drunk, by Don Lattin

YouTube: Bill W. (2012 documentary)

The Rose Of Paracelsus: On Secrets & Sacraments, by William Leonard Pickard

Pubmed: Percentage of Heavy Drinking Days Following Psilocybin-Assisted Psychotherapy vs Placebo in the Treatment of Adult Patients With Alcohol Use Disorder: A Randomized Clinical Trial

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

December 17, 2024December 30, 2024

Transpersonal Connections, the Body’s Memory, and the Collaborative Nature of Consciousness

In this episode, Joe interviews Paul Grof: research psychiatrist, clinician, author, brother of Stanislav, professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto, and director of the Ottawa Mood Disorders Center.

He talks about his extensive career in psychiatry, and how trying to understand the cause of mood disorders led him to focusing on the very nature of consciousness. He believes that consciousness is a collaborative creation between the brain, body, and external fields, and that the key to connecting with the mechanistic side of academia is through talking about the unexplainable – near death experiences, pre-cognition, remote viewing – and of course, them having positive non-ordinary experiences through psychedelics or other means. He talks about how much we’re connected, how much our bodies remember, and how much society could change for the better if enough people experience the transpersonal.

He also discusses:

His thoughts on legal frameworks, education, integration, and whether or not psychedelics will get stuck in psychiatry
The importance of new study designs in research, as double blinding doesn’t make sense for psychedelics
Concerns over spiritual emergence and emergencies: How much is the responsibility of the therapist or facilitator?
The global rise in depression and addiction, especially in the younger generation, and the need for techniques for people to help themselves
The work he’s doing with remote healing circles, using strong intention, positive emotions, and visualized healing

and more!

Links

Researchgate.net: Sources of Human Psychological Differences: The Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart

Sciencealert.com: Eerie Personality Changes Sometimes Happen After Organ Transplants

The Holographic Universe: The Revolutionary Theory of Reality, by Michael Talbot

Zimbardo.com: Life and Legacy of Psychologist Karl Lashley

Nasa.gov: What Is the Spooky Science of Quantum Entanglement?

Thelaszloinstitute.com: The Akashic Field with Ervin Laszlo – Higher Self Expo

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

December 10, 2024December 10, 2024

The Potential of Buprenorphine, the Risks of Ketamine, and How Psychedelics Could Prevent Nuclear War

In this episode, Joe interviews Howard Kornfeld, MD: renowned pain medicine expert, addiction specialist, early pioneer in psychedelic medicine, and currently the director of recovery medicine at Recovery Without Walls.

As a leader in the utilization of buprenorphine, he talks about how it came about as a treatment for addiction and chronic pain, its similarities to MDMA, and how its fast-tracked FDA approval could give us clues on how to get MDMA approved. He also dives into the history of ketamine, its unique effects compared to other substances, its potential for abuse, and what can happen with overuse. And he talks a lot about the connection he sees between psychedelics and the prevention of nuclear war, inspired by Sasha Shulgin’s opinion that nothing changes minds faster than psychedelics. He points out that when there is darkness, there is light: Albert Hofmann’s famed bicycle trip on acid happened 3 months after the nuclear chain reaction was invented. Can the growing use of psychedelics inspire the kind of change we need to save the world?

He also discusses:

The need for new study designs as we come to terms with the fact that double-blind studies don’t really work with psychedelics
Criticisms of the FDA’s denial of MDMA: Was the process unfair?
His predictions that advocates will begin pushing to decriminalize MDMA at the state level
The books, Tripping on Utopia and Drugged
How he played a part in prisons ending the practice of killing prisoners with cyanide gas

and more!

Links

Recoverywithoutwalls.com

Ippnw.org: International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War

What do Alien Abduction and Psychedelic Experiences have in Common? Let Dr. John E. Mack’s Work Explain

Atlasobscura.com: How a Famed New Age Retreat Center Helped End the Cold War

Trackii.com

Thebulletin.org: Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Wikipedia.org: Buprenorphine

Omnimagazine.com: John Lilly on Dolphin Consciousness

National Library of Medicine: Ketamine bladder syndrome: an important differential diagnosis when assessing a patient with persistent lower urinary tract symptoms

Cghjournal.org: Liver Injury Is Common Among Chronic Abusers of Ketamine

United Nations’ Treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

The Nature of Drugs Vol. 1: History, Pharmacology, and Social Impact, by Alexander Shulgin

Tripping on Utopia: Margaret Mead, the Cold War, and the Troubled Birth of Psychedelic Science, by Benjamin Breen

Psychonauts: Drugs and the Making of the Modern Mind, by Mike Jay

Drugged: The Science and Culture Behind Psychotropic Drugs, Richard J. Miller

Nytimes.com: At the Brink: A Series About the Threat of Nuclear Weapons in an Unstable World

Scientificamerican.com: Inside the $1.5-Trillion Nuclear Weapons Program You’ve Never Heard Of

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

November 29, 2024December 17, 2024

Is Cannabis a Psychedelic? Exploring the Science of Indoles, Interprening, and Intention

Most cannabis enthusiasts have experienced the wide range of possible effects, from a subtle happy high to one that floors you. The question must be asked: Is cannabis a psychedelic? And how can we make it more so?

In this episode, Victoria interviews Max Montrose: Founder of the Trichome Institute, a company offering online courses and certifications on cannabis.

Montrose explores the scientific and sensory aspects of cannabis, diving into the role of the aromatic compound, indole, and how the fresher and more aromatic (usually pungent) the flower is, the higher chance for having a more psychedelic experience. He dives into ways to maximize the psychedelic nature of cannabis, largely through “interprening,” which is his method for learning about a plant’s effects from smelling buds, measuring your sense of sensation and where you feel the smell is hitting you. And he talks a lot about intention and how the power of a cannabis experience can be determined by the reverence you have for the plant and the intention you put behind each inhale: It is a “total reflection of how much you care.”

He also discusses:

The range of cannabis effects: how it can be just weed – something mindlessly smoked all day with a slight numbing effect – or an incredibly powerful, life-changing experience
The importance of skillset being added to the concept of set and setting: the skills you have (and can practice) for helping you create your own setting to get through a tough time
Issues with the legal cannabis industry about accuracy of strains, shelf life, and the ability to smell the product
The lack of money in cannabis research: Why is no one funding research into indole chemistry?
Why indica and sativa are not accurate terms, and how aroma is more of a factor than we realize

and more!

If you’re curious about interprening or the Trichome Institute’s other offerings, head to the site and use code psy25 for 25% off anything. And if you’re thinking of going to the reMind Psychedelic Business Forum in Las Vegas next week, use code rempsychtoday10 for 10% off your ticket, and come visit our table!

Links

Trichomeinstitute.com

Is Cannabis Psychedelic? Examining the Scientific Evidence

Npr.org: Does Beaver Tush Flavor Your Strawberry Shortcake? We Go Myth Busting

Abstraxtech.com

Trichome Institute YouTube: Why Strain Names Don’t Matter Anymore!

Trichomeinstitute.com: Unlocking the Power of Terpenes Through Aromatic Training: Engaging Your Trigeminal Nerve for a Deeper Cannabis Experience

reMind Psychedelic Business Forum: Dec. 3, 2024, Las Vegas Convention Center (use code: rempsychtoday10 for 10% off)

NEW REPORT: Psychedelics at Work – Mapping the Path of the Field

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

November 8, 2024November 8, 2024

Why Psychedelic Research is Booming: Current Trends and Hurdles

There is more psychedelic research happening today than ever before, but is anyone collecting it all into one place? And can we find trends in all that data?

In this episode, David interviews Floris Wolswijk: senior project manager at Delphi; co-founder of FLO coaching; and founder of Blossom, an online informational hub collecting psychedelic courses, trials, companies, and over 2000 categorized research articles.

When Wolswijk began Blossom, he was barely able to fill a weekly newsletter, and now he’s adding a new study nearly every day, perfectly illustrating the exponential growth in psychedelic research. He talks about why so much research is happening (and why more isn’t), the trends he’s seen, the benefit in research changing people’s minds, and what he hopes for in the future. What can the research community learn from existing real world evidence, and how can retreat centers and underground communities contribute?

He also discusses:

What culture is like in the Netherlands, where psilocybin truffles are legal
Drug development and the possibilities of adjusting existing molecules
What we can learn from the Lykos and FDA situation
The economics of psychedelics and how insurance will likely be the next big conversation
His work with FLO coaching, and how coaching, acceptance and commitment therapy, and psilocybin can work together

and more!

Links

Blossomanalysis.com

Delphi-circle.com

Flocoaching.nl

YouTube: Psychedelic Research: The Current Landscape & Future Directions, with Floris Wolswijk (a PT webinar)

QRI.org

Why Did the FDA Reject MDMA-Assisted Therapy for PTSD?, featuring: Ingmar Gorman, Ph.D.

Painscience.com: A fascinating landmark study of placebo surgery for knee osteoarthritis

Psychedelicalpha.com: The Psychedelic Drug Development Pipeline Bullseye Chart

The Economics of Psychedelics, featuring: Elliot Marseille, DrPH, MPP

Thelancet.com: Effect of psilocybin versus escitalopram on depression symptom severity in patients with moderate-to-severe major depressive disorder: observational 6-month follow-up of a phase 2, double-blind, randomised, controlled trial

Microdosinginstitute.com

Bbrfoundation.org: Small Preliminary Trial of Psychoactive Drug Ibogaine Yields ‘Initial Evidence’ for Powerful Therapeutic Potential in Traumatic Brain Injury

Psychologytoday.com: David Drapkin, LCSW

October 31, 2024October 31, 2024

Is Cannabis Psychedelic? Examining the Scientific Evidence

Cannabis is not typically regarded as a psychedelic, but scientific evidence tells us it should be.

Abundant anecdotal evidence of cannabis’ therapeutic applications, explored in Part One of this series, makes it hard to deny its potential as a powerful plant medicine, used similarly to psilocybin and MDMA in clinical and ceremonial settings.

But new science around the flavorant indole found in cannabis (and many other entheogens) may have significant implications for reclassifying the plant as, indeed, psychedelic.

It’s not just indole; there’s more psychedelic chemistry at play within cannabis regarding what defines a psychedelic substance. Is indole a missing key to classify cannabis as a psychedelic? Which drug class does cannabis belong to now? Do people hallucinate from cannabis, and are hallucinogens the same as psychedelics? What defines a psychedelic, and how would cannabis scientifically fit into that category?

Factors Influencing Cannabis’s Psychedelic Potential

Cannabis is not traditionally regarded as a psychedelic, although it can be a potent psychedelic when certain variables align. Factors like the individual’s set and setting, tolerance, and cannabis type can determine whether the experience is typical, or, indeed, psychedelic.

There are books, online courses, ceremonial practices, and legitimate research all dedicated to the psychedelic cannabis experience. I’ve had many psychedelic experiences with cannabis that range from subtle effects, to experiences comparable with DMT trips. I’ve also witnessed people experiencing cannabis as if it were ayahuasca. However, these psychedelic-like effects arising from cannabis use are rare, because cannabis in all its varieties (and the people who consume it) are wildly diverse.

However, extreme psychedelic experiences are not necessary to deem cannabis psychedelic. In fact, cannabis has more multifaceted psychedelic chemistry than one might think. Before diving into the chemistry, let’s evaluate how cannabis is classified right now.

The Current Classification of Cannabis

Cannabis is one of the most complex, widely consumed drugs due to its differentiated psychoactive chemistry, and classifying it is complicated. Although a drug class typically defines the type of drug it is, both NIDA and the WHO recently removed their authoritative online resources regarding the drug class cannabis falls within. Others, such as The Discovery Institute and IACP classify cannabis in its own drug class, which makes sense given its diversity.

All at once, cannabis bears depressant and sedative properties, along with stimulating attributes, and psychedelic or hallucinatory potential. Depending on the strain (of which there are thousands) and the tolerance and the unique biochemistry of the individual consuming it, the effects of the plant can vary wildly.

Cannabis is currently undergoing federal rescheduling, and deserves its own official drug class, too.

Understanding Psychedelics vs. Hallucinogens. Where Does Cannabis Fit?

To determine if cannabis is a psychedelic, it is essential to understand what a psychedelic is and how it may differ from a purely hallucinogenic experience.

Psychedelics are a class of psychoactive substances that primarily influence the brain by altering perception, mood, and cognitive processes. While they are known for inducing hallucinations, not all hallucinogens are classified as psychedelics. The specific characteristics that define a psychedelic drug include:

Mechanism of Action: Psychedelics primarily exert their effects by acting on serotonin receptors, especially the 5-HT2A receptor. This interaction is crucial for the psychedelic experience. Classic psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, and DMT fall into this category.
Subjective Effects or Altered Perceptions: Psychedelics can profoundly alter sensory perception, leading to vivid visual and auditory hallucinations, synesthesia (blending of senses), and intensified colors and patterns.
Cognitive and Emotional Effects: Users often report altered thought processes, enhanced introspection, and a sense of connectedness. There can be profound emotional changes, ranging from euphoria to introspective insight.
Mystical Experiences: Many users describe experiences of unity, transcendence, and a sense of encountering a greater reality or consciousness.
Non-Toxic and Low Addiction Potential: Classic psychedelics are generally non-toxic and do not lead to physical dependence or addiction. While they can cause psychological distress or trigger latent mental health issues in susceptible individuals, their physical safety margin is considered high compared to many other psychoactive substances.
Distinct Pharmacological and Neurobiological Effects: Ego dissolution, where the user’s sense of self is temporarily diminished or dissolved, is a defining characteristic of psychedelics. This is less common with other hallucinogens.

Other natural plant-based hallucinogens that are not psychedelic include dissociatives and deliriants. Substances like Salvia Divinorum, Datura, Brugmansia, and Mandrake produce hallucinations, but primarily, cause a sense of detachment from reality and one’s body rather than the profound sensory and emotional alterations typical of psychedelics. Experiences from these plants are often characterized by confusion, a lack of insight, and a greater risk of dangerous behaviors. They can also be so toxic that they can become lethal, unlike plant-based psychedelics, which are generally non-toxic.

Is Cannabis a Psychedelic or a Hallucinogen?

Simply, cannabis can be both (though it is typically neither). I’ve experienced both minor and major hallucinations from cannabis that were not inherently psychedelic, including hearing and feeling my phone ringing when it’s silent, seeing plants come alive, and movement from inanimate objects. Sounds and colors may be enhanced, and some visual distortions may occur, all of which are forms of hallucinations, but not necessarily psychedelic experiences.

As a researcher, educator, expert witness, and daily cannabis consumer for over 25 years, I’ve concluded that cannabis is also a psychedelic, not just a hallucinogen.

Factors Influencing the Psychedelic Experience of Cannabis

Achieving a true psychedelic state with cannabis depends on both experiential and scientific factors. Key elements include tolerance, the user’s intention, the specific strain of cannabis, its chemical composition, and how we categorize what makes a substance psychedelic. Each of these factors works together to shape the depth and nature of the experience, highlighting the complex interplay between personal mindset, biological response, and the characteristics of the cannabis used.

Tolerance: Cannabis tends to be more intense and psychedelic when you have a low tolerance to it. Many people report experiencing stronger, more hallucinatory effects when they first used cannabis. Taking a tolerance break can help recreate these experiences.

Intention: Structured intention plays a key role in enhancing cannabis’ psychedelic effects. Even with high tolerance, combining cannabis with meditation and ceremony can lead to intense experiences similar to other psychedelics. Mindfulness and a proper set and setting are crucial.

Strain: Choosing the right strain is important. Sativa or “narrow-leaf type” varieties with citrus and gas-like aromas are typically more psychedelic. Using tools like Interpening can help identify cannabis strains that will deliver the desired effects. The aroma type of narrow-leaf cannabis is typically hallmarked by citrus terpenes and ‘sulfuric thiols’ which smell like gas; Tropicanna Sulfur Compounds “TCSCs” (citrus-funk), and heterocyclics like indole with sharp chemical smells.

Introducing Indole: The Missing Psychedelic Cannabis Link

Indole is the core structural group of psychedelic tryptamines such as DMT, LSD, and psilocybin-bearing mushrooms, and surprise: it’s commonly found in cannabis, too.

Since indole is found in many cannabis strains, some might speculate whether it contributes to cannabis being psychedelic. Indole itself doesn’t cause psychedelic effects. It’s a foundational structure that forms part of many important compounds. It serves as a core structure for many biologically active compounds, including neurotransmitters like serotonin and several psychedelics.

However, indole serves as a scaffold that, when modified with specific functional groups, can interact with brain receptors to produce psychedelic effects. This is important because these receptors are linked to mood, perception, and classic psychedelic experiences.

This is where the complex chemistry of cannabis plays a role in defining what, indeed, constitutes a substance as psychedelic.

Indole is found in many naturally occurring psychedelics, such as 5-MeO-DMT and 5-HO-DMT, present in various plants and toad venoms. Ibogaine, which contains indole, is found in the root bark of the African plant Tabernanthe iboga. The psychedelic compounds harmine and harmaline, also containing indole, are found in the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, known as ayahuasca. With four psychedelic compounds containing indole within the brew of ayahuasca, it is evident that ayahuasca deserves to be listed among psychedelic indole-containing substances. Humans (including you) produce N,N-DMT, cannabinoids, and indole simultaneously.

Previous research has focused on indole, primarily, as an aromatic compound. However, further research is needed to fully understand the importance of indole beyond the aroma of cannabis alone.

“Indole is interesting for reasons far beyond the aroma. The indole structure is the core structure of many biologically important compounds within plants, humans, and animals alike. It is the key component of both tryptophan and melatonin, two important compounds found in the human body. It is also the main structural group of psychedelic tryptamines such as psilocybin, DMT, and LSD,” reports Abstrax Tech.

Research suggests the psychotropic potential of indoles is significant. Although phenethylamines primarily exert their effects through the activation of 5-HT2A receptors, indoleamines can have a significant behavioral component mediated by activation of similar 5-HT1A receptors.

While indole itself is not responsible for directly inducing psychedelic effects, its presence as a core chemical structure in both cannabis and traditional psychedelics hints at the deeper biochemical connections between these substances. The indole structure serves as a foundation for compounds that can influence serotonin receptors and other pathways linked to altered states of consciousness. As we continue to unravel the complex chemistry of cannabis, it’s possible that the full psychedelic potential of indole-containing compounds within the plant may reveal itself, bridging the gap between cannabis and classical psychedelics in ways we are only beginning to understand.

Where Does THC Fit In?

Recent studies suggest that THC, a non-selective cannabinoid receptor agonist, can upregulate 5-HT2A receptors, similar to classic psychedelics. High doses of THC, like those in concentrates like shatter or diamonds, can produce LSD-like effects, including hallucinations. Dr. Ethan Russo supports the idea that THC is hallucinogenic, while CBD counters these effects.

Where Does CBD Fit In?

CBD, unlike THC, binds to the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor, which mediates psychedelic experiences like those from LSD or mescaline. Though THC does not bind directly to 5-HT2A, it activates CB1 receptors, which form complexes with 5-HT2A. This interplay may contribute to cannabis’s psychedelic effects.

Where Do Terpenes Fit In?

Terpenes like β-Caryophyllene, linalool, and limonene also interact with 5-HT2A and CB1 receptors, potentially amplifying THC’s effects. These compounds contribute to cannabis’s overall psychotropic profile, indicating that cannabis’s full psychedelic potential may still be unfolding through continued research.

Changing the Narrative Through Scientific Evidence

Cannabis is not currently regarded as a psychedelic in the mainstream or scientific sense – at least not yet. With substantial scientific and anecdotal evidence already present and more emerging, it wouldn’t be surprising to see cannabis officially classified as a psychedelic.

Barbra Bauer from Psychedelic Science Review states, “Although the psychedelic experience can be highly variable, cannabis and psychedelics, in general, have many effects in common. It’s important to remember that both cannabis and naturally occurring psychedelics like psilocybin mushrooms contain a cocktail of compounds, many of which have not been characterized.”

Natural psychedelics like ayahuasca, mescaline cacti, ibogaine, and magic mushrooms contain multiple compounds working together to produce dynamic effects. Similarly, cannabinoids and terpenes in cannabis interact with serotonin receptors, suggesting it has the potential to be classified as a psychedelic. With the right strain selection and a focused intention, cannabis can create profound sensory, cognitive, and emotional changes, making it potentially indistinguishable from a classic psychedelic experience.

Though Western science may not fully recognize humans as inherently psychedelic, practices like meditation and yoga often result in vivid, altered states without substances. Whether you agree or not, cannabis’s chemical profile and the psychedelic experiences it can induce hint that it may be more psychedelic than previously thought – and perhaps, so are we.

October 25, 2024November 1, 2024

The Penn Psychedelics Collaborative and the Power of Interdisciplinary Connections

As the spectrum of interest in psychedelics broadens more every day, interdisciplinary connections become more important than ever. What is the Penn Psychedelics Collaborative?

In this episode, Joe interviews 4 members of the team: Co-Founder, Taylor Andrews Flatt, PMHNP; Associate Director, Victor Pablo Acero, Ph.D.; Professor in Fine Arts and Co-Director of the Weitzman School of Design, Jackie Tileston; and Executive Director and Director of the Penn Program for Mindfulness, Michael Baime, MD.

Recorded earlier this month at the PhilaDelic conference – one of the primary initiatives of the PPC – they discuss their paths to psychedelics and why this transdisciplinary collection of faculty, researchers, and clinicians at the University of Pennsylvania was so necessary. Viewing psychedelics from different perspectives (Flatt from nursing, Acero from bioengineering, Tileston from the art and mysticism side of things, and Baime from a more mindfulness point of view), their group is a case study in collaboration – a place where connections can be catalyzed and shared goals can be addressed from different angles. How far can we go when different groups start working together?

They discuss:

The concept of psychedelics not just being used to treat conditions, but to make us healthier
Psychedelic art and the idea of the art itself being psychoactive rather than just representations of trips
The work of David Glowacki and bringing about non-ordinary states of consciousness through VR
Research into salvia being used to alleviate stroke symptoms
How a lack of funding can really create focus

and more!

Links

Pennpsychedelicscollaborative.org

Philadelic.org

Jackietileston.com

Upenn.edu: Mystics and visionaries: A fine arts seminar

Glow-wacky.com (David Glowacki)

Qualiacomputing.com

Muttermuseum.org

Nih.gov: Therapeutic Potential of Salvinorin A and Its Analogues in Various Neurological Disorders

Neurokor.com

Pictureacolorfulworld.com: We are the Medicine

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

October 24, 2024October 24, 2024

Meet the Legal Team Fighting the DEA to Save Psychedelic Research

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) is poised to ban two psychedelic compounds, DOI and DOC, which could deliver a disastrous blow to psychedelic science and research if successful.

The United States is one of the most advanced societies because our visionaries have the freedom to innovate. That is, unless, we’re talking about drugs. The U.S. government has sweeping blinders on when it comes to researching and developing psychoactive compounds, especially hallucinogenic ones that target the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor.

Nearly every one of these classic psychedelics exists as a Schedule 1 illicit substance. And if the DEA has its way, the last remaining unregulated, DOI and DOC, will suffer the same fate.

A hearing this November, led by attorney Robert Rush Esq., will elucidate what comes next.

What are DOI and DOC, and Why Do They Matter?

DOI (2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodoamphetamine) and DOC (2,5-dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetamine) are relatively obscure synthetic psychedelic compounds in the amphetamine class. They bind to and activate 5-HT2A receptors, just like psilocybin, LSD, and DMT, influencing everything from decision-making and pain-processing to gut function.

One property that makes DOI and DOC unique is their strength – only small dosages are reported to produce 20 to 36-hour trips.

Scientists are so fascinated by DOI and DOC’s mechanism of action that they’ve published nearly 1,000 papers on the substances. DOI, in particular, has been used to map 5-HT2A distribution in the brain and understand the receptor’s functions, including memory, learning, and sensory perception.

The Necessity of Researching Novel Compounds

UC Berkeley neuroscientist Dr. Raul Ramos is one of many researchers actively studying DOI to uncover its value. The therapeutic research areas for DOI are vast and promising. They include its potential to reduce inflammation and improve cognitive function and flexibility – both critical for overcoming depression. Other possibilities include treating asthma and combatting fentanyl and alcohol addiction.

“It’s not a stretch to say that the results of my research could inform future therapies in humans,” Ramos told Psychedelics Today.

Ramos explained that scientists today can freely explore these substances for planned experiments or to test spontaneous ideas. However, a Schedule 1 Controlled Substances Act (CSA) designation will strip them of that liberty.

“It will stifle spontaneity and creativity. It will stifle progress,” said Ramos.

The DEA, however, takes a wildly different stance. In December 2023, the notoriously conservative organization initiated its second attempt to brand DOI and DOC as illegal, lacking any medical value and high abuse potential.

If the DEA’s legal effort succeeds, these compounds will be criminalized, and Dr. Ramos and other non-DEA registered scientists must immediately cease research. To restart, they’ll need to undergo a lengthy, cost-prohibitive process seeking institutional, federal, and state approvals, according to Ramos. Unfortunately, most unpublished work will never be see the light of day.

Inside the Fight to Keep DOI and DOC Research Alive

Fortunately, Ramos’ lawyer, Robert Rush, refused to let the DEA proceed without resistance.

“I was nervous that the scheduling would go through, so I connected with people who might be interested parties [in challenging the decision]. I filed the request for a hearing 30 minutes before the post office closed on the deadline. It came together at the last minute,” said Rush.

Rush filed a request on behalf of Ramos and two other academic researchers. Elijah Ullman, a molecular neuropharmacologist, filed a separate request for Students for Sensible Drug Policy (SSDP). David Heldreth, CEO of Panacea Plant Sciences (PPS), also filed a hearing request.

In a recent development, Administrative Law Judge Paul Soeffing denied the DEA’s request to block a number of witnesses, including experts from SSDP and Panacea Plant Sciences (PPS), from testifying at the upcoming hearing. While the judge granted some of the DEA’s motions to exclude specific evidence, this ruling represents a partial victory for the researchers and organizations challenging the ban. However, the judge noted that the relevance of the witnesses’ testimony would still be determined later during the hearing.

The hearing, which starts November 12, will draw prominent witnesses, including psychedelic researchers D r. David Nutt and Dr. David Nichols, to present the case for DOI and DOC’s utility for developing new therapeutic drugs.

“I have many colleagues who work with these compounds who will testify in the upcoming hearing, and that is only a subset of the research community,” said Ullman, who has been interested in science policy since he was a teen.

Ullman added, “The DEA alleges that DOI and DOC should be placed in Schedule 1 because of their high potential for abuse, but this does not align with over 40 years of data.”

To his point, not one DOI or DOC use report existed before 2005. After 2005, the DEA registered only 45 DOI seizures across local, state, and federal registries throughout a 13-year period. DOC confiscations were more common but mounted to a mere average of 60 annually nationwide. Most reports involved small-scale seizures in forms like blotter paper or powder that do not even register a mention in the DEA’s 2024 National Drug Threat Assessment.

Adverse events linked to DOI and DOC are also scarce. The DEA referenced just three case reports of serious reactions in its Schedule 1 recommendation, including one death related to DOC and caffeine in a 37-year-old with a history of methamphetamine abuse. DOI was not included in any of these reports.

The DEA’s push to classify these substances as Schedule I, despite the small number of incidents, limited evidence of recreational use, and their admission that physical dependence is not an issue, suggests an overreaction rooted in dogma rather than legitimate concern.

“I believe data integrity matters in policy decisions, and since the data does not align with the DEA’s viewpoint that it should be scheduled, it should not be,” said Ullman.

Rush adds that DOI and DOC’s day-long trips make the compounds highly undesirable for personal use.

“No one is seeking a 36-hour psychedelic experience,” said Rush. “There is no illicit drug trade. No one really wants [DOI and DOC], quite frankly.”

No one, except researchers, who assert that the compounds have transformed their understanding of brain function and disease. They’ve helped us learn that serotonin receptors are “much more than a ‘feel-good’ chemical,” according to Ullman.

“There’s incredibly cool data from Charles Nichols’ lab at Louisiana State University showing a reduction in airway inflammation in rodent asthma models with doses significantly less than that one that causes intoxication… A whole new class of anti-asthma medicines could arise because of DOI research, improving millions of lives worldwide.”

What Comes Next in the Legal Battle for DOI and DOC?

Rush and Phelps will present significant evidence during the 10-day hearing next month to counteract the DEA’s claims. Afterward, the judge will make his non-binding recommendation and send it to the administrator. Then, it’s up to the DEA to decide.

The recent ruling denying the DEA’s attempt to block key witnesses further bolsters the opposition’s case, adding momentum as they prepare to present evidence and testimony.

If the judge finds in the petitioners’ favor, the administrator could adopt the judge’s ruling

“There’s always a chance the DEA could do the right thing,” said Rush.

However, it could also ignore a favorable ruling and proceed with scheduling. If that happens, Rush said he will not give up. The next step will be to move forward with litigation, where he will challenge the organization’s rule-making authority in court.

“We have to check the DEA’s excessive power,” said Rush.

The Bottom Line

The DEA has been extraordinarily aggressive in scheduling psychoactive drugs since establishing the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, and if history repeats, DOI and DOC will not be spared. We’ve seen that their attempts to control chemicals have exacerbated cartel violence, spurred countless unjust arrests, and stifled scientific progress, especially regarding psychedelics and mental health interventions. Let’s hope sensibility and freedom win this time.

Want to show your support for the cause? Consider donating to SSDP to help them raise funds to bring the case’s witnesses, all university researchers, to the 10-day hearing.

October 15, 2024December 11, 2024

The FDA, MDMA, and Public Perception: Was the FDA Fair to Lykos?

The psychedelic space was dealt a huge blow when the FDA decided not to approve MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD under Lykos’ proposal. Was the FDA fair to Lykos? And what are the next steps for Lykos and MAPS?

In this episode, Joe interviews Rick Doblin, Ph.D.: founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), and former board member at Lykos Therapeutics, MAPS’ public benefit subsidiary.

Doblin tells his side of the story: that the FDA’s concerns with double blinding not working had been fully addressed ahead of time, that they had negotiated agreements that were no longer agreed to when new FDA employees came on board, that there was a lot of confusion from going back and forth with the FDA on how Phase 3 studies should be designed, and more. He believes that Lykos made a massive mistake in assuming that provable science was more important than public opinion, and that ignoring critics who were saying whatever they wanted caused them to lose control of the narrative – which clearly influenced the advisory committee. While Lykos figures out their next steps with the FDA, MAPS is focusing their attention on what they feel is most important in light of this ruling: better public education and drug policy.

He talks about:

How there’s a bias at the FDA to be harsh: Does automatically saying no just make it look like you’re being rigorous?
The work of the Dutch government in researching MDMA, and Lykos’ odd decision to not highlight any of it
Massachusetts’ Legalization and Regulation of Psychedelic Substances initiative, and the huge opportunity for progress at the local level
Why federal agents at Burning Man work so hard to give tickets to attendees for smoking cannabis
Why sharing stories of your positive experiences with psychedelics is so important

and more!

MAPS has announced that 2025’s Psychedelic Science conference will be in Denver, June 16-20, and will have experiential opportunities before and after. If you’d like to donate to MAPS, please do so here.

Links

Maps.org

PT327 – Rick Doblin, Ph.D. – Confronting Abuse in Clinical Trials and the Future of Psychedelic Medicine

Icer.org: Institute for Clinical and Economic Review Releases Draft Evidence Report on Treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

MAPS Podcast- Episode 33: Matthew Baggott – Beyond Fear – MDMA and Emotion

Maps.org: MAPS Statement on FDA Complete Response Letter on MDMA-Assisted Therapy for PTSD New Drug Application

Psychedelicalpha.com: Exclusive: David Hough on Lykos’ Path to Resubmission

Imdb.com: Of Night and Light: The Story of Iboga and Ibogaine

Bostonmagazine.com: Eliza Dushku’s Bold New Journey

Maps.org: Mark your calendar for the next Psychedelic Science conference: June 16-20, 2025 Denver, Colorado

Donate to MAPS

October 10, 2024October 10, 2024

The Science Behind How Psychedelics Inspire Creative Breakthroughs

Have you ever hit a creative roadblock on a project or a problem you need to solve? Chances are, there might be a psychedelic for that.

Despite their recent focus on medical and mental health benefits, psychedelics have long been linked to creativity and insight. And in light of the FDA’s recent decision to withhold approval for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, it’s become more important than ever to cultivate a wider view around psychedelics and their potential to shape and influence our lives.

The exploration of psychedelics as tools for creative breakthroughs offers profound potential to expand our understanding of how these substances influence the human mind beyond their medical and therapeutic applications. In the Vital psychedelic training program, we incorporate these ideas, especially for those pursuing careers as coaches and wellness practitioners.

Throughout this article, we’ll examine how these substances have been used to help people boost creativity, gain insights, and enhance problem-solving abilities – and the science behind it.

Unlocking Creativity Through Psychedelics

Whether encountered through a sudden flash of insight in “Eureka!” moments, or through a lengthy process of deep ideation, creativity is a mysterious force that allows us to connect information in new and unexpected ways. Often, it can lead to new understandings that help us adapt to an ever-changing world.

Historically, psychedelics have long played a role in inspiring creative genius and fostering insight. From Beat poet Allen Ginsberg, whose iconic poem “Howl” was inspired by his psychedelic experiences, to Nobel laureate Francis Crick, who credited LSD with helping him discover the structure of DNA, these substances have shaped some of the most influential minds in history. Even Steve Jobs described LSD as “one of the most important things” he did in his life, underscoring the transformative role psychedelics have played in sparking innovation and artistic expression.

Biochemist Kary Mullis credits his use of LSD in playing a vital role in his discovery of how to automate the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), a pioneering breakthrough which earned him the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1993.

Although the discovery did not come about while directly under the influence of LSD, it helped him to “inhabit” DNA molecules from a new perspective.

“PCR’s another place where I was down there with the molecules when I discovered it and I wasn’t stoned on LSD, but my mind by then had learned how to get down there. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the polymerase go by,” Mullis said.

More recently, astrobiologist Bruce Damer came out of the psychedelic closet, sharing how psychedelics, in combination with other consciousness-expanding practices, helped him arrive at what is now a widely cited hypothesis on the origins of life.

“My own story is that an interweaving of endogenous preparation and meditation combined with a low dose of ayahuasca led to a breakthrough to the scientific question of how life could have begun on the Earth, four billion years ago. The telling of this story led to the formation of the Center for MINDS,” he explained.

A newly formed nonprofit, MINDS is dedicated to exploring how psychedelics and other consciousness-expanding practices can play a role in creative problem solving to help our species find innovative solutions to the polycrises of our time.

Unlike other psychedelic organizations, MINDS is focused on what they refer to as “psychedelic-assisted innovation” as an emergent practice that could serve to revitalize the public perception of the value of psychedelics and a yet to be explored path to regulatory approval.

Damer outlines what he perceives as the current pathways to psychedelic access and regulation, including Indigenous and cultural use; personal growth and expression; and therapeutic applications, calling for a so-called “fourth path” in psychedelic research and discourse, utilizing them as tools for creative breakthroughs in science and technology.

“We believe that a next step beyond the therapeutic applications of psychedelic practices is their use as elixirs of creativity. MINDS hopes to validate their effects through science and valorize their practice in our society through established protocols,” Damer told Psychedelics Today.

The Role of Altered States in Creative and Scientific Discoveries

Throughout the ages, mystical, non-ordinary states of consciousness such as dreaming and hypnagogia (the liminal state between wakefulness and sleep) have been linked to creative insight across cultures and disciplines. These states have played a major role in scientific breakthroughs, artistic expression, and technological innovation.

Chemist Friedrich August Kekulé was famously dozing off by his fireplace when he had a vivid vision of molecules transforming into snakes. In this vision, one of the snakes twisted into a circle, forming an ouroboros, a serpent devouring its own tail. This image inspired him to understand that the chemical structure of benzene was, in fact, a closed ring.

Such naturally occurring non-ordinary states of consciousness are similar to psychedelic states in that they allow for a heightened capacity for mental imagery and visualization, sharing more fluid, free-flowing, imagistic, and highly associative patterns of consciousness.

Referring to how individuals like Nikola Tesla envisioned the electric generator and Albert Einstein uncovered the basic principles of his special theory of relativity in non-ordinary states of consciousness, psychiatrist and founding father of transpersonal psychology Stanislav Grof explains, “It is a well-known fact that many important ideas and solutions to problems did not originate in the context of logical reasoning, but in various unusual states of mind – in dreams, while falling asleep or awakening, at times of extreme physical and mental fatigue, or during an illness with high fever.”

A 2022 paper on psychedelics as tools for creative insight examined the way in which dreaming and hypnagogic states overlap with the psychedelic experience, shedding light on shared neurophenomenological and cognitive processes. They suggest that one key feature of creativity is our capacity to have fluid and flexible cognitive processes, shifting between modes of thought such as divergent and convergent thinking. That is, our ability to come up with as many different solutions as possible to a loosely defined problem, versus coming up with a single solution to a well-defined problem.

The authors conclude that, “The psychedelic state may have its own characteristic features making it amenable to creativity enhancement, such as brain hyperconnectivity, meta-cognitive awareness, access to a more dependable and sustained altered state experience, and potential for eliciting sustained shifts in trait openness.”

Exploring the Research on Psychedelics and Creative Problem Solving

In 1966, shortly after LSD was criminalized in the state of California, researchers Willis Harman and James Fadiman published a groundbreaking study examining the role of psychedelics in creative problem-solving, finding that psychedelics were able to enhance creativity.

A group of 27 professionals, including engineers, architects, and mathematicians, were dosed with LSD or mescaline, then put into small, carefully curated working groups. In preparation for the experiment, each participant was instructed to choose one (or more) problems related to their work that required a creative solution.

Participants were able to find solutions to certain problems they had been working on for weeks – and in some cases months – reporting decreased feelings of inhibition, a greater ability to conceptualize the problem in a broader context, enhanced ideation, and heightened capacity for visual imagery.

“I worked at a pace I would not have thought I was capable of. My mind seemed much freer to roam around the problems, and it was these periods of roaming around which produced solutions… I dismissed the original idea entirely, and started to approach the graphic problem in a radically different way. That was when things began to happen. All kinds of different possibilities came to mind,” said one participant.

The first study of its kind, it is not considered as scientifically rigorous as today’s double-blind, placebo-controlled standards – participants were positively primed for the experience by being instructed that the substances would help enhance their creativity. Even so, it suggests that psychedelics do have the ability to enhance creative problem-solving (set, setting, and intentionality permitting).

A 2016 study explored ayahuasca’s effects on creativity, finding that the brew enhanced performance on tasks related to divergent thinking, while convergent thinking decreased. This impaired ability for convergent thinking is thought to be related to the large dosage of substance given and the strong, sometimes disorienting experiences it can produce.

Compared with practices like microdosing, it has been suggested that higher doses might limit cognitive processing abilities, being potentially too distracting to focus on specific problem-solving activities.

Another study measured psilocybin’s effect of convergent and divergent thinking, finding that even though participants reported feeling more creative, they performed worse on tasks measuring both types of creativity during the experience. However, a week later, when compared to the placebo group, those who ingested psilocybin scored higher on convergent creativity.

It is thought that this could be linked to the way in which psychedelics dampen the activity of the default mode network (DMN), an interconnected group of brain regions associated with introspective functions and internally directed thought, such as self-reflection, and self-criticism during the experience itself. After the acute phase of a psychedelic experience, the DMN connectivity is reconsolidated in a new way, producing neuroplastic changes in the brain, possibly leading to increases in creativity.

The practice of microdosing has also been celebrated for its perceived ability to enhance creativity, being widely used among Silicon Valley tech workers. However, up until recently, the link between microdosing and creativity remained anecdotal. A 2018 study by researchers at Leiden University, gave psilocybin-containing truffles to attendees at a microdosing event hosted by the Dutch Psychedelic Society, inviting participants to take part in two creative problem-solving tasks to measure their divergent and convergent thinking skills. Findings showed that participants scored significantly higher on both convergent and divergent thinking tests after ingesting a microdose.

The Science Behind Psychedelic-Induced Creativity

On the level of personality, psychedelics have been shown to produce enduring openness to new experience. A 2018 study conducted by researchers at Imperial College London, examined the effects of psilocybin on personality structures in patients suffering from treatment-resistant depression. Researchers gave patients two doses of psilocybin a week apart from one another in supportive settings, assessing personality at baseline and then again at a three-month follow-up.

Although the study didn’t directly set out to understand the connection between psychedelics and creativity, it found that psilocybin produced increases in trait “openness” which is linked to “new ideas and values, imagination, aesthetic appreciation, novelty-seeking, non-conformity, and creativity.” However, researchers suggested that such increases in openness might also be linked to psychedelic-assisted therapy specifically.

Another key feature of the psychedelic brain state is increased global connectivity – enhanced communication between brain regions and networks. This shift may underlie the fluid and unconstrained thinking associated with psychedelics, promoting novel perspectives and creative insights.

Psychedelics are also known to induce a state of higher brain entropy, marked by more dynamic and less predictable brain activity, which opens up a greater range of brain states. This “anarchic” state, described in the REBUS model (Relaxed Beliefs Under Psychedelics), reduces reliance on prior beliefs and expectations, fostering a richer conscious experience that can enhance creative thinking. By loosening preconceptions – often barriers to creativity – psychedelics may help the mind break free from conventional thought patterns, although this can also diminish the ability to critically evaluate ideas.

The Shadow Side of Psychedelic Insight

One important question to factor when considering creative insights and solutions born from psychedelic reveries is: whether such downloads hold true and find congruence within larger bodies of knowledge, or not.

In a recent scientific review paper, researchers suggest that in the psychedelic state the subjective experience of creative enhancement may not “match the actual ‘quality’ of insights or realizations under the drug – as judged by others.”

As with dreams, psychedelic experiences are often replete with symbols, imagery, and impressions that do not necessarily have a fixed or simple meaning. As with any other type of psychedelic journey, it is important to emphasize the period of integration in which mystical, ineffable insights are carefully distilled into real-world understanding and enduring change. In the case of using psychedelics for creative problem-solving, this process of integration would have to coalesce with larger scientific and industry protocols, continually revisiting, testing, and refining insights through processes of peer review.

In Vital, we stress the importance of discernment and integration when working with these substances. Our program trains participants to support clients in not only navigating the psychedelic experience itself but also in applying their newfound perspectives in a grounded, practical way.

In the past, psychedelics have been heralded as a “magic bullet” or “cure all” for mental health diagnoses as well as looked to as a way to resolve the climate crisis through their ability to shift our relationship with the natural world. In looking to psychedelics as tools for creative problem-solving to help us meet the multiple existential crises that we are facing as a species, it is critical that we tread with caution, not becoming overly zealous in our desire to exalt psychedelics as a simple solution to our collective problems. No doubt, when used with care, they can serve to help us along the path, but only represent one tool in a cadre of others.

September 10, 2024September 10, 2024

Psychedelic Outlaws: Cluster Headaches, Citizen Science, and the Story of ClusterBusters

Cluster headaches are considered to be the most severe pain a person can experience. With scarce research and no funding, citizen-led science has taken over, and sufferers may have discovered the answer: psychedelics.

In this episode, Joe interviews Joanna Kempner, Ph.D.: associate professor in the Department of Sociology at Rutgers University and author of the recently released, Psychedelic Outlaws: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine.

The book profiles the history and groundbreaking work of ClusterBusters, a nonprofit researching and spreading awareness about what someone named Flash discovered decades ago: that for some people, psilocybin and LSD could stop cluster headaches from coming on. Through early internet message board posts and email exchanges between Bob Wold, Rick Doblin, and others, Kempner pieced together their story. And through attending ClusterBusters meetings, she discovered that a lot of the true healing lies in the bonds formed and the hope people find when seeing something new work for a pain for which science has no answer.

She discusses:

The lack of political will behind something so debilitating: Why is there no funding for this?
The importance of patient advocacy and the role of the internet in sharing novel information
The difficulty in studying a disease so unpredictable: How do you run a randomized trial when you don’t know when a cluster is going to happen?
Why the headache community clashes with psychology
Concerns over how to ethically combine underground and Indigenous knowledge with above-ground University research

and more!

Links

Joannakempner.com

Psychedelic Outlaws: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine, by Joanna Kempner, PhD

Clusterbusters.org

Psychedelicsandpain.org

Not Tonight: Migraine and the Politics of Gender and Health, by Johanna Kempner

Nih.gov: Response of cluster headache to psilocybin and LSD

Allianceforheadacheadvocacy.org: Headache on the Hill

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

Portasophia.org

PT336 – Sisi Li, Ph.D. – Porta Sophia: Psychedelic Prior Art

ClusterBusters Inc. YouTube: Psychedelic Outlaws Book Club – Week 1

Philadelic.org

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

August 13, 2024August 13, 2024

Rumination, the Default Mode Network, and How Neuroplasticity Changes Over Time

Rumination, or repetitive self-focused thought that’s typically critical and/or negative, is at the heart of many psychiatric disorders. Could psychedelics and psychedelic-assisted therapy help?

In this episode, Chris Koddermann interviews two members of the Center for the Neuroscience of Psychedelics at Mass General Hospital: founding director, author, and co-founder of three drug development companies, Dr. Jerry Rosenbaum; and psychiatrist and associate director and director of cognitive neuroscience, Sharmin Ghaznavi, MD, Ph.D.

Rosenbaum and Ghaznavi bonded over an interest in rumination, and wondered: How could the plasticity-inducing effects of psychedelics change these negative loops people find themselves in? How important is the ability to break out of those loops – and learn new patterns – when our concept of self is so central to who we are? Ghaznavi is studying the effects of psilocybin on rumination and scanning patients at multiple times throughout the process to track data we still don’t really have: how psychedelic-induced neuroplasticity changes over time, and why.

They discuss:

How much of a role the default mode network takes in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics: Is it overblown?
Hyperscanning, which involves scanning two individuals at the same time, looking for potential concordance in signal and/or an increased alliance between the therapist and patient
The Schultes Legacy Project and the work of Stephen Haggarty to explore the potential of largely unstudied psychoactive plants
Critiques of the recent ruling on Lykos and MDMA-assisted therapy and the clash between the FDA and the advisory committee: Were they really on the same page?
The false dichotomy of neuroscience vs. patient experience: Does the subjective experience actually increase plasticity and other measurable benefits?

and more!

Links

The Center for the Neuroscience of Psychedelics

Sheppardpratt.org: First-Ever Psilocybin Clinical Trial for Treatment of Bipolar II Depression Conducted at Sheppard Pratt Reveals Promising Results

Psypost.org: Therapeutic alliance plays a key role in MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD

Mghcme.org: Psychedelics and Pain: Understanding the Roles of Psychedelics and Clinicians in Facilitating Brain Change

Haggartylab.org

Plants of the Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers, by Richard Evans Schultes, Albert Hofmann, Christian Rätsch

Psythx.com

Sensorium.bio

Entheoslabs.com

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

August 6, 2024August 9, 2024

Psychedelics and Creativity, Endo-Tripping, and the Origins of Life on Earth

The path of the psychedelic renaissance has largely touched on the aspects of therapy, personal growth, and initiation rites, but now, the relationship between psychedelics and creativity is being studied more and more. Can psychedelics really increase intellect, novelty, and problem solving?

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Bruce Damer: astrobiologist with a long history of work at NASA, and now the president and co-founder of the Center for MINDS, a new nonprofit researching the best ways to improve creativity and problem solving.

He talks about how we’re losing our best creative minds to hyper-specialization, and while there is lots of research pointing to psychedelics as creativity-enhancers, we need to develop frameworks and protocols to be able to measure exactly how that works, and the best ways to encourage better results. The Center for MINDS is sponsoring research while running its own three year project studying creativity in a naturalistic setting, and aims to answer: How do we unlock more genius? What’s the main driver for novel thinking?

He discusses:

His path to psychedelics, including his time with ‘endo-tripping’: training his mind to trip without any external substances
The importance of adding ‘set up’ to set and setting, representing one’s intentions and preparatory work up until that point
The tale of his extraordinary ayahuasca experience where he journeyed together with Mama Ayahuasca all the way to the beginning of life on earth
His theory on the real origin of life, and why the ‘survival of the fittest’ framework shouldn’t be our North Star
The absolute necessity of mentorship from elders

and more!

The steps the Center for MINDS will take in studying psychedelics and creativity will largely be steered by people’s personal stories, so please share yours with them by filling out their survey. What has worked for you? What is your personal protocol?

Links

Centerforminds.org

Biota.org

Lucid.news: Downloads from the Modern Dawn of Psychedelics

Psychedelicsalon.com: Bruce Damer

Psychedelic Prophets: The Letters of Aldous Huxley and Humphry Osmond, edited by Cynthia Carson Bisbee, Paul Bisbee, Erika Dyck, etc.

The Doors of Perception and Heaven and Hell, by Aldous Huxley

PT444 – A Glimpse Into the Psychedelic Neuroscience Landscape, featuring: Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. & Manesh Girn, Ph.D.

Healthline.com: What Is Hypnagogia, the State Between Wakefulness and Sleep?

Sagepub.com: Psychedelic Agents in Creative Problem-Solving: A Pilot Study

Lucid.news: A Psychedelic Journey to the Origin of Life

Scientificamerican.com: Life on Earth Came from a Hot Volcanic Pool, Not the Sea, New Evidence Suggests

YouTube: ESPD ’55 Dr. Bruce Damer presents It’s High Time For Science (5/25/2022)

Nature.com: Papers and patents are becoming less disruptive over time

PT256 – Matthew D. Segall, Ph.D. – Consciousness, Capitalism, and Philosophy

Footnotes2plato.com: The Cosmological Context of the Origin of Life: Process Philosophy and the Hot Spring Hypothesis

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

July 9, 2024July 9, 2024

Chronic Pain and Inducing Neuroplasticity With Psychedelics

In this episode, Joe and REMAP Therapeutics Founder, Court Wing, host Lynn Watkins: medically retired USAF JAG & Ops Resource Mgmt Specialist; and C.J. Spotswood, PMHNP: principle psychiatric clinician at REMAP Therapeutics, and author of The Microdosing Guidebook: A Step-by-Step Manual to Improve Your Physical and Mental Health through Psychedelic Medicine.

Watkins tells her story of 20+ years of chronic pain: from Complex Regional Pain Syndrome brought on by a severed nerve to multiple foot surgeries, chest pains, cognitive issues, the inability to move her toes, burning mouth syndrome, and more, which unsurprisingly resulted in depression, anxiety, and being unable to work. Wing and Spotswood talk about their initial assessment, how they figured out how to work with her and her multitude of medications, and the incredible success they saw when combining practiced techniques, neuromodulation, and regular assessments with neuroplastic windows brought on by psilocybin.

They discuss:

How much preparation was done before introducing psychedelics, and the importance of realizing that they were dealing with PTSD
How often a history of chronic pain is related to a history of trauma, whether the patient realizes it or not
Consequences and complications of medications, specifically Clonazepam in Watkins’ case
The cascade of ailments and side effects that can happen from just one injury

and more!

Links

Psychedelicsandpain.org

Remaptherapeutics.com

Entheonurse.com

The Microdosing Guidebook: A Step-by-Step Manual to Improve Your Physical and Mental Health through Psychedelic Medicine, by C. J. Spotswood

PT380 – Microdosing, Talking to Physicians About Psychedelics, and Nurses as the Scalability Solution, featuring: C.J. Spotswood, PMHNP-BC

Mayoclinic.org: Complex regional pain syndrome

Mayoclinic.org: Burning mouth syndrome

PT369 – Chronic Pain and Phantom Limb Pain: Could Psilocybin Be the Answer? featuring: Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD

Nih.gov: Chronic pain and psychedelics: a review and proposed mechanism of action

PT322 – Kimberly Juroviesky, Capt., USAF, Retired – Ketamine and Complex Regional Pain Syndrome

*Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

June 24, 2024June 24, 2024

What is MDMA’s FDA Approval Status? A Look Ahead

Following the multi-decade regulatory pursuit, legal MDMA-assisted therapy (MDMA-AT) seemed imminent to many people. In February 2024, the FDA accepted Lykos Therapeutics’ New Drug Application (NDA), and all markers indicated a likely approval.

However, on June 4, the Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee (PDAC) shattered optimism when nearly all members advised the FDA to reject Lykos’ application.

In a 9-2 and 10-1 vote, the committee asserted its belief that MDMA therapy, as it stands, is neither effective nor safe for Americans with PTSD.

So, what is MDMA’s FDA approval status following the hearing?

The outlook seems grim, given that the FDA aligns with the advisory panel 88% of the time. Still, Lykos (formerly MAPS Public Benefit Corporation) remains hopeful.

“We believe there is a path forward and are focused on collaborating with the FDA as they continue to review our NDA over the months,” said Lykos in an email interview.

A final decision on MDMA for PTSD is expected on or around August 11th.

Unpacking the events that led to the recent developments in FDA approval for MDMA.

The Backstory

Starry-eyed psychedelic proponents didn’t see the dissent coming. The FDA had just granted Lykos’ NDA priority review, and everything seemed to be going smoothly.

However, the contention became clear on March 26, when the Institute of Clinical and Economic Review (ICER) published draft evidence on MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD. In the report, ICER acknowledged MDMA’s potential to help people heal from trauma. However, it raised significant concerns about weaving this novel treatment into traditional medicine.

The TLDR of the report’s criticism was that Lykos’ clinical evidence did not sufficiently support MDMA therapy for PTSD. The report cited alleged data validity issues, potential biases from therapists and participants, and a reported incident of sexual misconduct. It also highlighted MDMA’s cardiovascular risks, unexamined adverse events, and lack of long-term data proving the therapy’s enduring effects.

A month later, five people submitted a citizen petition to the FDA commissioner requesting the organization convene an advisory committee meeting on MDMA-AT to discuss the application’s “shortcomings and risks.” The letter also called for an extended public comment period prioritizing concerned speakers, and a live webcast.

The letter’s primary claim against the NDA was that MAPS/Lykos allegedly “manipulated clinical trial data to hide adverse events from regulatory agencies, motivated in part by a belief that these agencies would not understand that these adverse events are a necessary part of their MDMA-AT.”

The FDA responded to the petition by granting the advisory committee meeting with an extended comment period. However, it denied the request to prioritize input from concerned stakeholders.

The Meeting

June 4th’s meeting was a nine-hour saga, inviting FDA members, public participants, Lykos representatives, and eleven PDAC panelists to debate the risks and benefits of MDMA-assisted therapy.

PDAC boasted various roles in the psychopharmacologic field, including consumer representatives, pharmacists, patient representatives, scholars, and physicians. It did not include experts from the field of psychedelic research. Nevertheless, by 5:30 p.m., the board confidently dismissed MDMA-AT’s ability to do more good than harm for PTSD.

Lykos told Psychedelics Today that they didn’t see the rejection coming.

“Going into the meeting, we knew this was a unique assignment for the panel to review a drug-plus therapy combination. We did, however, believe that the fact that studies showed MDMA-assisted therapy offers statistically significant and clinically meaningful improvement in PTSD symptoms and functional impairment compared to placebo across two phase 3 trials with evidence of durability over time would compel the panel to support approval.”

MAPS / Lykos’ second Phase III Trial (MAPP2) found:

86.5% of patients in the MMDA-AT group clinically benefited from the treatment compared to 69% in the placebo group.
71.2% of the MDMA cohort no longer held a PTSD diagnosis, compared to 47.6% in the placebo group.
46.2% of MDMA patients achieved remission compared to 21.4% in the placebo cohort.

Despite the clinically impressive results, PDAC emphasized significant doubts about the data’s validity and MDMA-AT’s overall safety.

Functional Unblinding and Expectation Bias

Functional unblinding occurs when participants or researchers accurately predict the treatment they receive or administer. Expectation bias occurs when someone anticipates a particular result. Prior experience, previously held beliefs, and functional unblinding can cause such biases, potentially impacting patient experiences and reporting.

Dr. Paul Holtzheimer from the National Center for PTSD said, “Expectation bias can work in two ways. It can exaggerate the effect of the active treatment and blunt the effect of the placebo treatment.”

It’s true that 40% of the trial participants used MDMA in the past and may have assumed the drug worked based on prior positive experiences.

However, as Lykos points out in a recent statement, “The data indicates that prior illicit MDMA use had no impact on the results, as there was no meaningful difference in primary outcome measure or adverse events reported between the subgroup of Phase 3 participants who reported prior illicit MDMA use and the subgroup of participants who did not.”

Functional unblinding impacts, however, are far more debatable.

Renowned psychedelic drug researcher Matthew Johnson, PhD, explained Lykos’ unblinding problem in a recent X post.

Johnson said, “For those [in the study] thinking they got MDMA, the therapeutic effect was nearly identical between MDMA and placebo [groups]. Yikes.”

In other words, people who guessed they were on MDMA achieved similar therapeutic responses, whether or not they really took the drug.

Still, Johnson points out in The Illusion of Consensus podcast that functional unblinding is not a new issue for psychedelics, nor is it unique.

“There are a whole host of drugs that have been [FDA] approved. All of the sleep drugs… all of the anti-anxiety benzodiazepines, all the ADHD drugs… all of the opioid pain relievers. The practice of psychiatry is filled with psychoactive drugs that have very clear signatures… I want to know to what degree in FDA advisory panels this [functional unblinding issue] has come up… Because cutting through the blind is an issue for all these [compounds]… I don’t think psychedelics should be held to a higher standard than the normal process.”

Misconduct and Data Integrity

Potential misconduct during the MAPS / Lykos trials added to PDAC’s concerns about the integrity of the results.

Allegations included reports that principal investigators:

Discouraged patients with negative experiences, like suicidality, from participating in follow-up studies.
Influenced patients to report favorable outcomes.
Inconsistently recorded adverse events.
Purposely recruited patients who would respond well to MDMA therapy for PTSD.

PDAC also lamented the trials’ insufficient data on patients with severe trauma as well as an overall lack of diversity, citing low Black and Asian representation.

Dr. Melissa Barone, a psychologist from the Maryland Healthcare System, said, “There are so many problems with the data that each one alone might [be okay]… But when you pile them up on top of each other… I think there are still a lot of questions about how effective the treatment is and how durable it is.”

At least some of the mistrust centered on the perception that Lykos and MAPS founder Rick Doblin, PhD, are determined to push MDMA approval at any cost.

Lykos says, “Like all research sponsors, Lykos and its clinical sites are subject to regular FDA inspections. We have full confidence that the FDA will continue to assess the integrity of Lykos’ research through its inspection process.”

Durability of Effect

Lykos’ clinical trials show that MDMA-assisted therapy exhibited durable therapeutic effects for at least six months. However, PDAC questioned the claim for several reasons.

One was that patients utilized other integrative treatments in between MDMA therapy and the follow-up analysis, including:

Psychodynamic therapy
Eye movement desensitization reprocessing (EMDR)
Other cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT)
Group psychotherapy
Prolonged exposure
Cognitive processing therapy
Holotropic breathwork
Interpersonal therapy

The committee expressed that these therapies introduced “confounding factors,” which made it challenging to isolate MDMA-AT’s specific impact.

Meeting chair, Dr. Rajesh Narendran, added more skepticism. He said, “I’m not convinced that this drug is effective in the short term… PTSD is a disorder where symptoms can fluctuate quite a bit. We all know that. And I feel like there should have been more repeated assessments over time to gauge where these people are heading.”

Psychological Intervention

Lykos’ unique psychotherapeutic approach was another confounding factor impacting the data, according to PDAC.

The FDA does not regulate psychotherapy, so this sticking point was beyond the meeting’s scope. However, several participants expressed distrust over what they perceived as an unstandardized and unproven modality.

In reality, Lykos utilized an approved framework described in its MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD manual. The approach is a non-directive, inner healer method that facilitates patient-led trauma processing.

It employs standard protocols like Exposure Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy (CPT), EMDR, and psychodynamic therapy. It also invites less conventional techniques, like Internal Family systems (IFS), Voice Dialogue, Hakomi, virtual reality, and Buddhist psychology.

Dr. Holtzheimer said, “I think the challenge here is that the psychotherapy in this case is not evidence-based yet.”

Dr. Barone added, “MDMA is not administered without the psychotherapy. And the psychotherapy is really vague. It is not well-determined. It seems like it was not standardized. And that makes it really hard to determine how effective it is…”

PDAC argued that the lack of standardization raises questions about the trials’ reproducibility and reliability. They also questioned the necessity of the therapy itself, wondering whether MDMA alone could elicit similar benefits.

Dr. Amanda Holley, a pharmacologist who previously worked at the FDA, explained this challenge in a recent Psychedelics Today Podcast.

“[The FDA] is having a hard time disentangling the contribution of therapy vs just MDMA. With this trial, they would’ve liked to see a factorial design that [tested] the therapy with the drug, an arm with the drug alone, and an arm with therapy alone. That would’ve given them a more holistic view of the data.”

Safety Concerns

Another data gap involved cardiovascular health risks, which panelists said were not fully assessed throughout the studies. They raised concerns that MDMA could cause heart attacks and strokes.

In The Illusion of Consensus podcast, Dr. Johnson explained that this argument was somewhat “absurd” due to MDMA’s known effects. Sure, it raises blood pressure and heart rate. But it’s a reasonable risk-benefit ratio. Johnson compared MDMA’s cardiovascular impact to Adderall, which doctors give to children every day.

“Even with a minor abnormality at the end of a session, it doesn’t mean it will lead to a clinical event like a stroke, which is extremely rare,” said Dr. Johnson.

The FDA said it should have required Lykos to take EKGs and blood samples after MDMA sessions. However, the agency admittedly approved Lykos’ study design without these measures.

The FDA’s admission did not shift the panelists’ perspective.

Sexual misconduct was another significant concern sparked by an incident in 2015.

A harrowing public comment on the matter came from Speaker 26, Sarah Grosh, who spoke as a proxy for Phase 2 participant Meaghan Buisson. In Buisson’s words, Grosh described the abuse that took place. Buisson’s descriptions of the assaults she suffered in session were recorded and are now publicly available.

Buisson also reported becoming suicidal during the trial and said that Lykos did not document this adverse event. She claimed MDMA therapy left her overwhelmingly vulnerable and led to further exploitation by her therapist, who she said trafficked her while still in the trial.

Grosh asserted that Lykos’ leadership did nothing to intervene after she filed the ethics complaint in 2018 and that they continue to deny any ethical violations.

Lykos responded in its statement, saying, “This was a terrible and harmful instance of malpractice that caused profound suffering to a participant. Lykos reported this violation to Health Canada, the FDA, and the relevant Institutional Review Board and banned the therapist pair associated with this case from all future work. Since then, we carefully developed and implemented new policies and practices aimed to prevent, detect, investigate, encourage reporting of, and thoroughly respond to potential instances of misconduct or unethical behavior.”

Prospects of FDA Approval

Amid the shadow of alleged misconduct, data misalignment, and safety concerns, PDAC voted an overwhelming no to MDMA treatment for PTSD. The FDA is not required to follow PDAC’s guidance. However, the overwhelming pushback casts serious doubt over whether 2024 will be Lykos’ year.

“It doesn’t look good at all. I imagine at some point MDMA will be approved for PTSD, but I wouldn’t put bets on it to be approved in August,” said Dr. Johnson.

Many people have read the statistic that the FDA aligns with advisory committees 88% of the time. However, a lesser-known fact is that in cases when the committee did not recommend approval, the FDA only agreed 67% of the time. This disparity leaves the door open for hope.

Another hopeful sign, according to Dr. Holley, is that the FDA prioritizes public health when making NDA decisions. The fact that current PTSD therapies are highly deficient and no new drugs have been approved in decades represents a significant healthcare failure.

Lykos maintains that MDMA-assisted therapy can meet the nation’s critical mental health needs, and it has not given up on approval.

“While we understand that the FDA considers advisory committee recommendations, most of the conversation at the meeting centered on known issues that have already been discussed and investigated. In addition, the panel was focused on the regulation of therapy outside the FDA’s purview.”

Lykos added that the organization is discussing a potential post-approval REMS (Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy) program with the FDA. REMS would seek to ensure patient safety and regulatory compliance through measures to monitor and manage risks.

“If FDA-approved, prescription MDMA-assisted therapy will be launched with careful consideration of its potential benefits and risks, following established medical guidelines, protocols, and quality standards,” said Lykos.

What’s Next if the FDA Approves MDMA-Assisted Therapy?

If the FDA approves Lykos’ application in August, the decision will spark a timeline that requires several bureaucratic steps before patients can access MDMA treatment for PTSD.

First, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) must reschedule MDMA from Schedule I within three months of approval.
After the federal rescheduling, states must also reschedule the drug. Most have processes for automatic alignment, while others have state-specific scheduling procedures.

“Our plan is to make MDMA-assisted therapy available, if approved, in 2025,” said Lykos, who clarified that they would initially roll out the program to a limited number of sites.

What’s Next if Lykos’ Application Fails?

Lykos declined to speculate on what they might do if the new drug application for MDMA-AT fails.

However, in similar circumstances, trial sponsors must thoroughly rectify the issues through additional studies, further data collection, or modifications to the drug’s formulation, labeling, or manufacturing process. Once finished, sponsors must resubmit a package with all the information proving the issuers were resolved. The FDA then re-evaluates the application to determine if it meets the safety and regulatory requirements.

The process can delay FDA approval by a median of 435 days, requiring companies to spend significantly more time and money to get to the finish line.

The Bottom Line

PDAC does not think the current data proves MDMA therapy is effective for PTSD, nor does it believe the potential harms outweigh the risks. Lykos asserts that the clinical trial results speak for themselves and that treatment could significantly improve countless lives. Now, 13 million Americans with PTSD await MDMA’s FDA approval status in August.

June 20, 2024June 20, 2024

Expanding Psychedelic Clinical Trials to LGBTQ+ Populations

Imagine a world where psychedelic-assisted therapy helps alleviate the mental health inequities faced by LGBTQ+ communities. This breakthrough could be closer than we think.

In recent years, psychedelic-assisted therapy has re-emerged as a promising frontier in mental health treatment. With substances like psilocybin and MDMA showing efficacy in recent clinical trials in treating major depressive disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), respectively, the prospect of psychedelic medicine is becoming more distinct, though uncertainties clearly remain.

However, as this field progresses, it is crucial to ensure that the benefits of these innovative treatments are accessible to all, particularly to those in marginalized communities. This includes sexually and gender-diverse people (or LGBTQ+ communities), who remain underrepresented in clinical research despite facing disproportionately high, inequitable rates of mental health challenges.

What are the current mental health disparities among LGBTQ+ communities, the limitations of the current psychedelic research landscape, and how we may move forward to improve clinical science and promote health equity? And further, how could psychedelic-assisted therapy alleviate minority stress-related mental health challenges among LGBTQ+ communities?

LGBTQ+ Mental Health and Minority Stress

LGBTQ+ individuals, encompassing a diverse spectrum of sexual and gender identities, experience unique stressors related to their minority status, or, more specifically, minoritization and oppression. These stigma-related stressors include chronic and persistent experiences of identity-related discrimination, interpersonal and internalized stigma, and expectations of rejection, all of which contribute significantly to mental health disparities, including higher rates of depression and anxiety beginning in childhood and adolescence.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found in their Youth Risk Behavior Survey that over 20% of sexually diverse youth attempted suicide in 2021, compared to 6% of their heterosexual peers. Of note, the mental health climate varies among the sub-groups within the LGBTQ+ communities, with the CDC finding that over 30% of trans and gender-diverse youth attempted suicide in 2019 (compared to 7.3% of their cisgender peers). These alarming statistics underscore the urgent need for targeted mental health interventions for LGBTQ+ patient populations.

The minority stress theory, as initially developed by Ilan Meyer, provides a framework for understanding these disparities. This theory has been routinely supported by empirical data and posits that the chronic stress experienced by LGBTQ+ individuals due to societal stigma and discrimination – or minority stress – has profound negative effects on their mental health.

Meyer describes a ‘distal-proximal continuum,’ where distal minority stressors include stressors independent of individual psychological processes, like identity-related violence or family and peer rejection, while proximal minority stressors include stressors dependent on individual appraisals, such as internalized homo- and transphobia, or chronic threat vigilance.

Given these mental health considerations unique to LGBTQ+ communities, there is a pressing demand to investigate and potentially tailor psychedelic-assisted therapy within the contexts of these specific minority stressors to improve LGBTQ+ mental health outcomes.

Flaws in Current Psychedelic Research for LGBTQ+ Communities

Current clinical trials on psychedelic-assisted therapy have been criticized for their lack of diversity, particularly the underrepresentation of racially minoritized communities and LGBTQ+ communities. Indeed, the vast majority of recent clinical trials have not collected data on the trial participants’ sexual orientation and gender identity, leaving outstanding treatment questions for the LGBTQ+ communities.

The inclusion of LGBTQ+ participants in these clinical trials is not just a matter of equity but also scientific rigor and generalizability, as detailed by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Additionally, understanding how psychedelic-assisted therapy interacts with the unique minority stressors faced by LGBTQ+ individuals may lead to more effective and inclusive treatment protocols.

A recent perspective published in Nature Mental Health by our team emphasizes the necessity of inclusive research, noting that systematic collection of sexual orientation and gender identity (SOGI) data is crucial for assessing the impact, if any, of psychedelic-assisted therapy on minority stress processes.

Additionally, the article describes how the integration of minority stress theory with existing models of psychedelic action, such as the relaxed beliefs under psychedelics (REBUS) model, offers a promising avenue for future research. The REBUS model theorizes that psychedelics are therapeutic as they make entrenched, maladaptive cognitive and behavioral patterns more malleable, ripe for establishing newer patterns of behavior and facilitating examination of old patterns.

For LGBTQ+ individuals, whose mental health may be compromised by deeply ingrained negative beliefs and expectations due to chronic minority stress, such as internalized homo- and transphobia, this psychological flexibility may be particularly therapeutic. In theory, by alleviating the rigid, maladaptive cognitive and behavioral patterns associated with minority stress, psychedelic-assisted therapy may facilitate profound psychological healing and resilience among LGBTQ+ communities. However, until research becomes more equitable, much will remain unknown for the LGBTQ+ communities–and these theories will remain hypotheses.

How LGBTQ+ Psychedelic Research Can Improve

To advance this research, several steps are essential.

First, there must be focused recruitment efforts, with study and site-specific strategies, to ensure the inclusion of diverse sexual and gender identities in psychedelic clinical trials.

Second, researchers need to systematically collect and analyze SOGI data to understand specific impacts of psychedelic-assisted therapy on sexually and gender-diverse populations, who make up over 20% of Generation Z, according to a recent G allup Poll.

Third, clinical trials should incorporate outcomes designed to assess minority stress processes explicitly.

And finally, developing and testing SGM-affirmative adaptations of psychedelic-assisted therapy protocols will be crucial in making these therapies potentially more effective and accessible to LGBTQ+ individuals. Importantly, such efforts must be complemented by comprehensive initiatives to establish an inclusive, affirming, and empowering environment for LGBTQ+ trial participants across each phase of the clinical trial.

These efforts, however, must be mentioned in conjunction with addressing the historical distrust between the LGBTQ+ communities and the medical establishment. LGBTQ+ individuals have experienced discrimination and stigmatization in health care settings and research, which can deter them from seeking care or participating in clinical trials.

Rebuilding trust requires the inclusion of LGBTQ+ researchers, clinicians, and community members in the design and implementation of psychedelic-assisted therapy clinical trials, with explicit acknowledgment and redress of this harmful past. This approach better ensures that future research is conducted in a culturally competent, trauma-informed manner, fostering a safer and more welcoming environment for LGBTQ+ trial participants.

Moving Forward with LGBTQ+ Inclusivity

The potential for psychedelic-assisted therapy to address the mental health disparities faced by LGBTQ+ communities deserves our attention. Realizing the potential of psychedelic-assisted therapy requires a concerted effort to include these populations in inclusive, affirmative research and to investigate treatments tailored to their unique health needs.

As the field of psychedelic research moves forward, it must do so with a commitment to inclusivity and equity, ensuring that the benefits of these groundbreaking therapies are available to all who need them. By expanding the scope of psychedelic clinical trials to include LGBTQ+ populations, while exploring LGBTQ-affirmative treatment models, we can move towards a more inclusive, effective, and compassionate approach to psychedelic research and mental health care. It is also imperative to rectify the historical underrepresentation and to advance mental health equity in meaningful ways.

As we continue to explore the therapeutic potential of psychedelics, let us do so with a vision of health care that embraces and uplifts every individual, importantly recognizing sexual and gender diversity. In doing so, we will not only enhance the validity and applicability of research findings but also ensure that the transformative potential of psychedelic-assisted therapy reaches those who need it most.

The journey towards mental health equity is long, but with deliberate and inclusive efforts, we can make significant strides in creating a world where every individual, regardless of their sexual or gender identity, can access and benefit from cutting-edge mental health treatments.

June 18, 2024June 18, 2024

An Inside Look at the FDA and Early Drug Development

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Amanda Holley: pharmacologist and regulatory consultant in nonclinical drug development, and previously a nonclinical pharmacology/toxicology reviewer at the FDA.

With Lykos Therapeutics working towards FDA approval of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, ICER (Institute for Clinical and Economic Review) recently published its draft evidence report, concluding that they couldn’t endorse this modality. While disappointing to the psychedelic space, this report doesn’t determine the FDA’s official stance, and also really highlights a lot about how the FDA works, the knowledge gap between consumers and regulators, and how clinical studies should be designed in the future. Holley talks about the FDA’s dedication to safety and data, and how, essentially, drug development comes down to a risk/benefit analysis.

She discusses:

Misconceptions about the FDA, especially related to psychedelics
The path of a substance in early drug development and how breakthrough designation works
The complications with blinding psychedelics, the placebo effect, and how much therapy is a factor
The contrast between productization and harm reduction: Should we be concerned with creating products, or understanding these substances better?
How changing one molecule really does create a different drug

and more!

Links

Icer.org: Institute for Clinical and Economic Review Releases Draft Evidence Report on Treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine Assisted Psychotherapy for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD): Draft Evidence Report

Psychedelicalpha.com: Exclusive: Therapists and Trialists from Lykos’ Phase 3 MDMA-Assisted Therapy Studies Push Back on ICER’s Critical Draft Report

Lykospbc.com: Lykos Therapeutics Statement on FDA Advisory Committee Meeting

Marijuanaindex.com: Delta 8 vs Delta 9 THC: Understanding the Differences and Effects

David Nutt’s drug harm scale

May 31, 2024May 31, 2024

Long COVID and Psychedelics

In this episode, special guest host Court Wing interviews Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez, MD: professor and chair of rehabilitation medicine at UT Health San Antonio; Joel Castellanos, MD: co-founder and associate medical director of the Center for Psychedelic Research at UC San Diego; and MaryAnn Welke Lesage: a long COVID survivor who reports experiencing drastic improvement in symptoms after MDMA and psilocybin therapy.

As the world slowly recovers from COVID, many people are seeing continued or new symptoms, and while much is still not understood, these symptoms are being categorized as long COVID: essentially a persistent viral inflammation causing brain fog, headaches, depression, and other hard-to-diagnose symptoms. With estimations of as many as 18% of people in the U.S. experiencing this at one point and 6.8% currently dealing with it, could psychedelics – which can decrease inflammation and reset neural networks – help alleviate these symptoms?

They discuss:

How long COVID fits into what we already know about psychedelics, pain, and inflammatory medicine
How MDMA or psilocybin therapy, specifically, could help
The importance of physical medicine and rehabilitation (PM&R) and the myriad of tools these physicians have learned to work with
Why anecdotal evidence matters towards future research

and more!

For more info, read Lesage’s article, “How Psychedelics Became Key to My Long COVID Recovery,” as well as the official paper: “Long-COVID symptoms improved after MDMA and psilocybin therapy: A case report.”

Links

Long-COVID symptoms improved after MDMA and psilocybin therapy: A case report

Time.com: The Latest Promising Long COVID Treatment? Psychedelic Drugs

PT369 – Chronic Pain and Phantom Limb Pain: Could Psilocybin Be the Answer? Featuring: Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD

BMJ Journals: Chronic pain and psychedelics: a review and proposed mechanism of action

Uthscsa.edu: Long COVID: A syndrome wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma

Uthscsa.edu: Dr. Monica Verduzco-Gutierrez discusses long-COVID disability before House subcommittee

Clusterbusters.org

Psychologytoday.com: Is Serotonin a Cause of Long COVID Brain Fog?

National Library of Medicine: The relationship between the serotonergic system and COVID-19 disease: A review

National Library of Medicine: Severe COVID-19 Pneumonia is Associated with Increased Plasma Immunoglobulin G Agonist Autoantibodies Targeting the 5-Hydroxytryptamine 2A Receptor

May 14, 2024May 14, 2024

RIPPLES of Hope: Psychedelics as a Tool for Peacebuilding and Collective Healing

In this episode, David interviews Sami Awad: Palestinian peace and nonviolent activist and founder of Holy Land Trust in Bethlehem; and Leor Roseman, Ph.D.: Israeli neuroscientist, researcher, and senior lecturer at the University of Exeter.

They talk about Roseman’s 2021 paper, “Relational Processes in Ayahuasca Groups of Palestinians and Israelis,” which looked at what happened when people with fiercely different opinions moved beyond fear, anger, and othering, and sat together in a safe container and drank ayahuasca with the purpose of healing collective trauma. When the focus of the participants moved toward understanding each other, Roseman and Awad saw a unity that gave them a lot of hope, leading to the creation of their nonprofit, RIPPLES, which is focused on using psychedelics for peacebuilding – first in the Middle East, and hopefully soon, everywhere. As Awad says, “If it can happen here, it can happen almost anywhere.”

They discuss:

The efficacy of psychedelics as a tool for nonviolent activism, building peace, and recognizing – and healing – collective trauma
The balance between the idealistic and the practical, or ‘the irony of harmony’ – if you focus too much on the connectivity of psychedelics, do you actually exclude voices?
The concept of “my liberation depends on your healing and your liberation depends on mine”
The challenge in doing something with the hope and enthusiasm that comes after a powerful experience: How do you make sure that wave of hope continues rippling through choppy waters?

Links

RIPPLESsalliance.com

YouTube: Sami Awad & Leor Roseman: ayahuasca as a peace-making tool among Palestinians and Israelis (PS23-MAPS)

University of Exeter: Dr. Leor Roseman

Frontiersin.org: Relational Processes in Ayahuasca Groups of Palestinians and Israelis

Frontiersin.org: On Revelations and Revolutions: Drinking Ayahuasca Among Palestinians Under Israeli Occupation

Maps.org: Oneness, Liberation, and Revolutionary Revelations Observational Research on Ayahuasca Rituals of Israelis and Palestinians

May 14, 2024May 15, 2024

Unlocking Creativity: How Psychedelics Are Influencing Modern Design

It’s no secret that psychedelics and creativity are intrinsically linked. If you look around, you won’t have to go very far to find psychedelic-inspired byproducts from visionary figures whose work has changed the world, from Yoko Ono, to Aldous Huxley, to Steve Jobs.

While psychedelics’ impact on art is well-documented, the psychedelic influence on design remains largely unexplored, despite luminaries like Jobs attributing psychedelic experiences to shaping their design ethos.

How do people working in the design world work with psychedelics in 2024? Spoiler: psychedelics are being used to foster unconventional problem-solving, inspire new empathic design systems, and lead to designs that reconnect people with each other and the planet.

Psychedelics and the Creative Process

Psychedelic experiences influence creative processes in various ways. Research and anecdotal evidence suggest that psychedelics such as LSD and psilocybin can enhance creative thinking by inducing a hyper-associative state of cognition, increasing global entropy in the brain, and reducing conventional, logical thinking while giving rise to novel thoughts and insights. A 2022 Beckley Foundation study revealed that psychedelics can lead to a shift of cognitive resources towards originality, convergence, and symbolic thinking, which are fundamental phenomena for creativity. The altered state induced by psychedelics can unlock creativity by allowing individuals to imagine things that don’t exist, experience profound visual and sensory hallucinations, and increase connectivity in brain networks associated with idea generation and evaluation.

“My current creative process is intrinsically connected to psychedelics,” said Jannyl Molina, Psychedelics Today graphic designer. As part of her role, she reads unpublished articles (including this one), to distill and visually articulate the main themes and conceptual complexities such as ‘integration,’ the ‘default mode network,’ and the ‘War on Drugs.’

“In a way, my process for design is really informed by past psychedelic experience and current research,” Molina said. A 2019 Maastricht University study found that psilocybin has several notable effects on creative thinking. It led to a differentiation of effects over time and across constructs; it resulted in higher ratings of spontaneous creative insights; it decreased deliberate, task-based creativity; and seven days after psilocybin use, the number of novel ideas continued to be elevated.

Reconnecting Nature and Humanity Through Life-Centric Design

Beyond just design, there’s a bigger idea at play. Based on our work at Psychedelics Design, a platform exploring how psychedelics and design overlap, we think the benefits of psychedelics could deeply change how designers create.

By helping us understand what people need and making us appreciate nature more, psychedelics may inspire products and systems that are innovative, beautiful, profitable, and also good for the planet.

In design, it can’t be overstated the degree to which psychedelic experiences change an individual’s view of how humans and nature are connected. These profound experiences frequently evoke a profound sense of unity and interconnectedness among all life forms.

For designers, these new perspectives can become their inspiration to use more earth-friendly methods in their work. It may inspire switching to green materials and putting nature first in the assembly of their work. Psychedelic experiences also fill the design process with more caring and respect for nature, possibly guiding designers to solutions that keep ecosystems in balance.

“You likely can’t get too far into psychedelic exploration without feeling a deeper connection to nature. As we like to remind people in our work, everything is designed – by humans or by nature. And spoiler alert: humans are, in fact, just another expression of nature,” say Tracy DeLuca, founder of the How Might We Design LLC., and Elysa Fenenbock, founder of The School of Psychedelic Design. Both are instructors of Stanford’s Psychedelic Medicine x Design course.

“More specifically, psychedelic experiences have profoundly reshaped our view and reconnected us with nature’s own creative problem-solving abilities, honed over billions of years of evolution. Psychedelics have expanded our understanding of what’s possible in problem-solving and encouraged us to consider the needs of all living beings, not just humans,” the pair wrote.

A long-term follow-up study by MAPS founder Rick Doblin of the Good Friday experiment found that participants’ appreciation for life and nature was enhanced 24 years after their psilocybin experience, suggesting long-lasting impacts on nature-relatedness. The findings from these studies align with the biophilia hypothesis, which argues that humans naturally prefer nature because we evolved in it.

Molina says she found “greater urgency to care for nature and take care of others” when under the influence of psychedelics.

“It’s as if that inner wisdom says to me, ‘you are healing and need to aid others in their healing, so that Earth can also heal.’ That becomes louder each time I journey,” she said.

This natural connection may be why many people choose outdoorsy settings for psychedelic experiences and report a deep appreciation of the world around them. Together, this research suggests psychedelics could help fix our modern disconnect from nature by making us feel more connected to and appreciative of the environment.

Creative System Changes Through Psychedelic Design

The idea of changing how we design things after having mind-opening experiences with psychedelics is exciting. Instead of only thinking about what’s best for humans, we can think about what’s best for all living things. This could help us work together better and fix big problems in the world.

This shift from human-centered to life-centered design holds promise for addressing complex issues and presents an opportunity for designers to elevate their collaborative efforts with clients and stakeholders. Rather than isolating themselves within traditional structures, designers can integrate more deeply into organizations, becoming integral parts of the growth ecosystem.

“In the realm of healthcare, psychedelic medicine shows promise not only in providing relief for individual mental health challenges but also in catalyzing a broader transformation of our broken healthcare systems,” DeLuca adds.

By embracing principles of expanded consciousness, conscious connectedness, collaboration, regeneration, and reciprocity, the Psychedelics Design Philosophy offers the potential to revolutionize the very essence of how we approach design, moving beyond mere problem-solving to co-creating harmonious and sustainable solutions that resonate with the interconnectedness of all things.

While there is plenty of room and indeed a need for the design process to evolve and benefit from an expanded state of knowing and doing, Jeff Salazar, partner at McKinsey Design, sees potential to more dramatically shift design structures.

“After 30 years of consulting experience, I’ve seen many teams have less impact than they are truly capable of by isolating themselves as the keepers of the process and/or are hampered by living within a corporate structure that puts them a Grand Canyon away from where strategy gets shaped. To this point, I’m inspired to see us open the aperture on how we might reimagine ‘design’ becoming even more a part of (not apart from) the organizations and institutions that can gain greater benefit from the practice,” Salazar said.

The chance to create new ways of designing naturally with psychedelics is a hopeful idea for the future of creativity. It lets us go past the limits of how we design things now and imagine a new way forward. This way of designing is about being open, aware, working together, helping things grow back, and being good to each other. It could change not just how we make new things but also help make bigger changes in the world.

“It is from being in an expanded-state, that designers can gain new perspectives on their role – not only in creating highly desirable, harmonious and sustainable solutions – but also to help broaden and challenge how they engage within the overall ecosystem of growth,” Salazar said.

By using what we’ve learned from psychedelic experiences, we can start to take apart old ways of doing things that don’t work anymore. We can make a system that includes everyone and lasts a long time. Ultimately, this can lead to a world where all living things live together in a fair and peaceful way.

What creatives can learn from set and setting.

What Creatives Can Learn From Set & Setting

Making new things can seem impressive, but it’s a lot of hard work and can be tiring for both the body and the mind. Just like in psychedelics, having the right attitude and a good environment – a.k.a. ‘set and setting’ – is essential.

Similarly for creators, who often possess heightened sensitivity, factors like sound, scent, and others’ emotions can profoundly impact their work. Creative agencies and some tech giants have known for a long time that it’s important to give their workers a place where they can flourish. A great workplace for creatives might offer different rooms to work, a variety of refreshments, places to sit quietly, opportunities to practice yoga, and special headphones to block noise in busy work spaces.

Henry Winslow, founder of Tricycleday, says psychedelics have shifted in his perspective on the creative process.

“I don’t force ideas anymore; I create space for ideas now. It might sound like a semantic shift, but it’s not. In my days working at giant agencies, we’d schedule 30 or 60-minute structured brainstorming sessions. They didn’t reliably generate anything remarkable. Now, I understand that the answers are within me. It may sound corny, but I just have to create the conditions for them to reveal themselves spontaneously,” he said.

Many creatives also experience a sense of detachment or otherness, creative blocks, and feelings of impostor syndrome driven by the pursuit of perfection, all of which can significantly elevate stress levels.

“I have noticed that if I have a ‘creative block,’ microdosing or even doing a larger dose will help me return to my usual creative self. The process of ideation has to be generative, by definition, and psychedelics are primordial for linking up parts of my brain and allowing new ideas to burst out,” Molina says.

According to UCSF researcher Robin Carhart-Harris, whose pioneering fMRI study captured images of a healthy brain under the influence of a dose of LSD capable of inducing a trip, the psychedelic experience involves a breakdown of the conventional sense of self, replaced by a profound sense of connection with oneself, others, and the natural world. Commenting on the study, Carhart-Harris notes that “[i]n many ways, the brain in the LSD state resembles the state our brains were in when we were infants: free and unconstrained. This also makes sense when we consider the hyper-emotional and imaginative nature of an infant’s mind.”

Hector Pottie, creative director of Moving Brands, believes that “maybe psychedelics are something that would help create the right conditions for us to think wider, to think differently.”

Psychedelics have the potential to alleviate tension, silence our inner critics, foster receptivity, enhance our sense of connection, and ultimately unlock intricate visions. This could help us develop new ways to design things that are just right for the complexities of our world.

Amanda Feilding, Founder and Director of the Beckley Foundation, supports this view.

“The practice of mind-expanding activities such as the taking of psychoactive substances was, I think, fundamentally interwoven with the early development of man, helping to expand the boundaries of consciousness. The mind was opened to new visions by maximizing hyperconnectivity, and spreading further the network of simultaneous associations, inspiring higher levels of creativity and spirituality.”

A placebo-controlled study by Isabel Wießner and colleagues at the University of Campinas, Brazil, found that compared to placebo, LSD changed several creativity measurements pointing to three overall LSD-induced phenomena: a ‘pattern break’ reflected by increased novelty, surprise, originality, and semantic distances; decreased ‘organization,’ reflected by decreased utility, convergent thinking and, marginally, elaboration; and ‘meaning,’ reflected by increased symbolic thinking and ambiguity in the data-driven results.

Carly Dutch-Greene, founder of Studiodelic, says: “My psychedelic experiences have given me the ability to deeply attune to my intuition and because of that, I am able to transmute thoughts and ideas into visual designs in a really meaningful way.”

For designers, psychedelics open up a new realm of creative possibility, offering a unique tool for problem-solving and innovation. By altering perception and expanding consciousness, psychedelics may unlock creative insights that were previously inaccessible, paving the way for design solutions that contribute to regenerative futures.

It is essential to acknowledge the complexities and risks associated with psychedelics – they are not a panacea for creative problem-solving, and may not be the best choice for all creative thinkers. The ongoing dialogue within the design and psychedelic communities must carefully balance the potential creative insights with potential risks. While psychedelics may offer profound experiences and new avenues for exploration, we can’t overlook that they also carry legal, ethical, and health considerations, too.

Ultimately, the intersection of psychedelics and design carries both profound opportunities and formidable challenges. By proceeding with open yet critical minds, this intersection has the potential to expand the frontiers of humanity. With wisdom and care, this resurgence could catalyze a new creative wave that redesigns our innovations and how we innovate.

Join Psychedelics Today CEO Joe Moore at PSYCHEDELICS DESIGN conference on July 11. Joe’s keynote presentation, titled: *The Great Reconnector: Designing Our Way Back Together with Psychedelics* will explore modern alienation, and how psychedelics can serve as catalysts to bring people back together. Additional speakers include Peter Reitano of Gwella, Dennis Walker of Mycopreneur, and others. Join us to collectively reimagine the possibilities at the convergence of consciousness and creative endeavors. ***Get 15% off your ticket with code JOE15.***

May 10, 2024May 11, 2024

The Other Side of Veteran Healing: Secondary PTSD and Post-Retreat Family Dynamics

In this episode, Joe interviews two members of the Heroic Hearts Project team: Director of Donor Development and founder of The Hope Project, Allison Wilson; and Director of Research and founder of Hystelica, Dr. Grace Blest-Hopley.

They discuss how The Hope Project – a nonprofit that supports spouses of veterans, Gold Star Wives, and female veterans with scholarships to psychedelic healing retreats, integration, community, etc. – merged with Heroic Hearts Project, and why this is such a necessary part of the veteran healing story: How does a family hold space for a vet returning to a suddenly alien civilian life (especially after a psychedelic journey)? How does a spouse deal with their own trauma from constant worry and isolation? Wilson and Blest-Hopley are learning that, for many spouses, having their own experience (and with other spouses) has been incredibly beneficial.

They talk about:

The concept of secondary PTSD (often referred to as ‘compassion fatigue’) and the many ways it can manifest
How Heroic Hearts is working with Imperial College London to use veteran retreats as real-world observational research
The importance of involving family in the healing process, and how positive outcomes can trickle down to children
The need for more research into how PTSD and the effects of psychedelics are different in women based on their unique physiology (as most studies have focused on men)

and more!

Links

Heroicheartsproject.org

Thehope-project.org

Hystelica.com

Lucid.news: Vets Group Moves Psychedelic Therapy Research Outside the Clinic

Cnn.com: Largest study of brains of athletes younger than 30 finds early signs of CTE even in amateur players

YouTube: PT Live: Joe Moore & Alex Horton Discuss the Heroic Hearts Project

May 7, 2024May 7, 2024

Early Research, Psychedelics in Palliative Care, and the Intersection of Science and the Sacred

In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview William Richards, STM, Ph.D.: senior advisor at Sunstone Therapies, psychologist at the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, contributor to Vital, and author of Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics & Religious Experiences.

He talks about the first time he experienced psilocybin in a research study in 1963, his early studies on the psychology of religion, working with Abraham Maslow, how he became one of the early psychedelic therapists, and what it was like for all of that to disappear when Nixon came into office and shut everything down. He discusses his move into psychedelics and end-of-life care after seeing patients’ fear of death completely disappear, and contemplates whether psychedelics could help people prepare for death – how would we live if we no longer feared death?

He also discusses:

How the integration of psychedelics into palliative care should be a huge step in cultural acceptance
How psychedelics could be used for education and boosting creativity, problem solving, and even new perspectives on history and classic works
The study of comparative religion and the potential for psychedelics to find the connections and commonality between seemingly disparate religions
The impact of psychedelic experiences on the perception of the sacred
How fascinating it is that the same substance, dose, and set and setting can create such incredibly different experiences

and more!

Links

Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences, by William A. Richards

The Psychology of Science: A Reconnaissance, by Abraham H. Maslow

The Divine Comedy: The Inferno, The Purgatorio, and The Paradiso, by Dante Alighieri, translated by John Ciardi

Clinicaltrials.gov: Psilocybin

Amazon links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale.

May 1, 2024May 1, 2024

Psychedelics and Pregnancy: A Look Into the Safety, Research and Legality

Psychedelics and pregnancy is a highly controversial and often unspoken topic. But beyond the stigma, what does the research, law and culture say about mothers-to-be consuming psychedelics?

As she had done many times before, Leticia Pizano sat in ceremony with her medicine sisters waiting to feel the effects of the four grams of magic mushrooms that she had ingested. An experienced journeyer, Pizano found it strange that 45 minutes later she began vomiting, an effect she was unaccustomed to so early in the trip.

“The medicine just showed me that I needed to get that out of my body because I was with baby,” she told Psychedelics Today.

Still, the mushrooms took effect and led her on a trip she described as beautiful and empowering. The experience enabled her to form a deeper bond with her unborn child. “There’s just a different connection with her; almost non-human,” Pizano says of her daughter, six months old and the youngest of her twelve children at the time of this writing. After her daughter’s birth, Pizano brought her “medicine baby” to every plant medicine ceremony she attended.

For Pizano, participation in community-based ceremony was a motivating factor for her use of psychedelics, and her use during pregnancy was consistent with cultural norms — she is a member of the Sac and Fox and Kickapoo Tribal Nations, where partaking in ceremonies that include plant medicine sacraments occurs all through a person’s life. For most non-Indigenous people, such participation would be unusual and likely stigmatized, perhaps viewed as dangerous or irresponsible.

Yet, as psychedelics enter a more mainstream era, non-Indigenous birthing parents are relying on them as tools for wellness and even lifesaving measures to address treatment-resistant depression, anxiety, PTSD and addiction. Our current paradigms for substance use during pregnancy do not look at psychedelics with a thoughtful, critical lens. A new approach may be required to accommodate the myriad ways our culture has shifted towards turning to psychedelics over conventional treatments and medications for well-being.

Information, Misinformation, and Disinformation: Research and Public Health Information on Psychedelics and Pregnancy

Just as with other psychotropics like antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications, birthing parents and their healthcare providers need to evaluate existing information on psychedelics and pregnancy to make informed decisions about whether to continue using them during pregnancy. But seeking information on the web yields few results. And what little information does exist on the topic is often confusing, incomplete and misleadingly shaped by the War on Drugs. One study on pregnancy and LSD – the study most commonly cited online in reference to psychedelics and pregnancy – was published in 1970.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists offers a blanket statement recommending the cessation of all marijuana use. Other psychedelics are similarly classified into a category of “substances that are commonly misused or abused,” a classification that bears the markings of bias and misinformation. According to the Global Drug Survey, we know that many psychedelic users ingest these substances in a safe, prepared and informed way, and according to longtime drug researcher David Nutt’s book, Drugs Without the Hot Air, psychedelics like mushrooms and LSD are not inherently addictive.

The March of Dimes, a research and advocacy group for mothers and babies, offers an unsourced page last edited in 2016 on their website that reads: “Street drugs are bad for you, and they’re bad for your baby.” The psychedelics included in this category are “ecstasy” and “other club drugs.” This broad categorization fails to account for the therapeutic applications of psychedelics. It also excludes critical factors like set, setting and dosage, all of which make a significant difference in a psychedelic user’s experience.

Mother to Baby provides more nuanced and specific information on psychedelics, but offer inconsistent guidance on the site. One article advises “Other street drugs, like cocaine, heroin, LSD, MDMA (ecstasy or Molly), and methamphetamine, also are harmful during pregnancy.” While the site’s Fact Sheets for both LSD and MDMA state that it is unknown whether the substances cause pregnancy-related problems.

These blanket prohibitions are largely based on the absence of—rather than the presence of—information about how a substance will impact a growing fetus. The medical research canon contains very little information about the effects of these substances during pregnancy, and substantial obstacles exist for this research to take place at all.

Due to ethical and safety concerns, “The research we do have on pregnancy in general—let alone pregnancy with psychedelics or plant medicine—is minimal because we don’t do research in pregnancy for the most part,” says Jessilyn Dolan, a registered nurse, herbalist, hemp farmer and former member of the Board of Directors for the American Cannabis Nurse Association.

Aside from ethical considerations, says Dolan, another challenge is measuring the long-term health impacts to the child of just one substance due to the enormity of confounding factors. For example, is a person who consumes cannabis edibles during pregnancy also consuming caffeine, alcohol, or prescription medication? How might these substances along with the birthing parent’s diet and lifestyle impact the long term health outcomes for the child? And how might the child’s environment, including exposure to toxins, food insecurity, poverty or traumatic life events, play a role in their health as well?

“When we look at pregnancy, breastfeeding and chest feeding and then doing longitudinal studies around kids, we have so many factors working against us to make that research really legitimized and standardized,” says Dolan.

Of the existing research on this topic, most is either outdated or based on small sample sizes. As legal restrictions on these substances shift, this may change. But information about the safety of ingesting substances during pregnancy is still scant, inconclusive and conflicting.

A study from 1968 on nine children exposed to LSD-25 in utero found elevated levels of chromosomal damage compared to a control group. However, none of these babies exhibited any birth defects. This study, with its very small sample size, has never been replicated. It also did not look at long-term outcomes for these children, rendering the results limited in value.

Similarly, an often cited and widely circulated study from 1994 compared 24 newborns exposed to cannabis to 20 who were not; results at 30 days showed that the cannabis-exposed babies actually scored higher on measures of alertness, were less irritable and had better reflexes. But this study, again with a small sample size and never replicated, did not take into consideration the many confounding factors that could have contributed to the results. For example, the study took place in Jamaica where cannabis use during pregnancy is a common practice and is not stigmatized. In addition, the heavier cannabis-using birthing parents were also more educated, more financially stable and had fewer other children to care for, all of which could have impacted outcomes for their babies.

More broadly, research on prenatal drug exposure is often mired in biases. In his book Drug Use for Grownups, Dr. Carl Hart details several problems associated with brain imaging research on people exposed prenatally to drugs. It is easier to get findings published, he says, when they are consistent with the widespread notion that drug use is bad for the developing fetus. In addition, Hart writes the findings are almost never replicated and researchers often ignore their own data in order to draw conclusions that reflect their own biases.

Still, experts in the field like Amanda Feilding, executive director of the Beckley Foundation, a UK-based NGO that funds psychedelic research and supports policy change, remain hopeful about the prospect for more research on the topic

“Scientific exploration could be carried out using animal models, or using naturalistic surveys to get answers from people who are already using or have already used psychedelics during their pregnancy,” Feilding says.

Keeping a Close Watch on Pregnant Bodies

Weighing risks of physical harm to the fetus against physical or mental health outcomes for the birthing parent is one framework for decision-making of this kind. But these calculations are not the only ones a birthing parent will have to assess. Most people who have experienced pregnancy will be familiar with an increase in monitoring by friends, family and even strangers who may feel entitled to comment on body changes, touch the pregnant person’s body without permission, or offer unsolicited advice or opinions on what the pregnant person ingests. Using psychedelics openly may create social stigma and isolation; the anxiety and stress that those conditions create may pose an additional risk for pregnant people.

Pregnant people are also monitored more closely by state and healthcare agencies. The American Academy of Pediatrics and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends screening a pregnant person for drugs when they enter prenatal care. Twenty-five states and the District of Columbia require healthcare professionals to report even suspected drug use, and eight states require them to test for prenatal drug exposure if they suspect drug use. In 2014, Tennessee became the first state to pass a “fetal assault” law specifically allowing prosecution of pregnant women who use drugs, imposing penalties of up to 15 years in prison. The legislation was so controversial it was discontinued in 2016, but has been introduced several times since.

Monitoring for drug use, however, happens disproportionately along racial lines. While white and Black birthing parents have similar rates of any drug use during the prenatal period (though the substances used and patterns of use may differ slightly), an often-cited study from 1990 found that Black birthing parents were 10 times more likely than their white counterparts to be reported to health authorities for their drug use.

Some states are actively working to correct these disparities, with mixed results. A 2015 study of California hospitals that adopted a protocol to monitor all birthing parents for prenatal substance use found that it did not impact child protective services reporting disparities.

New York has taken a different approach. In a testimony to the New York City Council from 2020, David Hansell, Commissioner of the New York City Administration for Children’s Services, stated that the agency had actively discouraged health professionals from making reports to them about a child or parent who tests positive for a substance if there is no negative impact on their well-being and instead make a referral to a service agency. While this could theoretically help level out racial differences, the question remains whether the service agencies would be equipped and trained to adequately address the physical and mental health and other needs of a birthing parent using substances.

Vermont has also taken steps to eliminate the reporting requirement for healthcare practitioners treating birthing parents using substances. If a birthing parent tests positive only for marijuana, they are exempt from hospitals’ and healthcare professionals’ reporting requirements to the Department of Children and Families (although if the marijuana use is thought to endanger a child, it must be reported). The marijuana-only exemption in Vermont is informed by the lack of sufficient evidence suggesting that marijuana use during pregnancy is harmful. But similarly, there is a lack of sufficient evidence demonstrating that other psychedelics are harmful.

For birthing parents who do test positive for substances, their risk of losing custody is also informed by structural racism within the child welfare system. According to Dr. Kelly Sykes, a psychedelic integration therapist and child forensic psychologist, disparities exist between legal systems that govern custody and child protection systems. Allegations of abuse, neglect and drug abuse requiring court intervention exist in both systems. However, only parents within the child protection system—which disproportionately impacts poor single parents of color—can have their parental rights terminated and be permanently banned from having contact with their child. Further, all aspects of their parental judgement are subject to scrutiny; they may be randomly tested for substances, regardless of whether substance abuse was a part of their child protection case.

Community Support: Making Decisions on Psychedelics During Pregnancy

In this landscape of inconclusive, biased, and misleading information, how can birthing parents make informed decisions on this topic? And without information from peer-reviewed, evidence based research, what might drive someone to elect to use psychedelics all the same during their pregnancy?

For some birthing parents, the mental health benefits outweigh the potential risks.

“Psychedelics can reduce anxiety and depression, and can help people cope with dramatic changes in their lives,” said Feilding. “For those reasons, it’s certainly possible that psychedelics could be beneficial for expectant mothers struggling with prenatal depression or anxiety.”

Dolan, who has worked with pregnant people using cannabis to address treatment-resistant hyperemesis, a condition in pregnancy that creates severe and persistent nausea, frames the issue similarly. If anxiety and stress impede on the connection between parent and baby, research shows that “the relationship and connection is just as, if not more important than the little bit of pharmaceutical that’s going to pass through your breastmilk or pass through in utero to the child,” she says.

Being in a safe, supportive community to help weigh those decisions and process experiences in a nonjudgmental way can be very helpful. For someone like Pizano, this community is built into her everyday life. She grew up attending peyote ceremonies for occasions like baby namings, funerals or healing, and the wisdom she relies on comes from a long lineage of oral tradition, passed down by elders.

For those without such a cultural container, more options are emerging for pregnant people in need of support. A recent Psychedelics Today webinar explored the subject of psychedelics and parenthood with Dr. Glauber Loures de Assis, Associate Director of Chacruna Latinoamérica in Brazil. Groups like Plant Parenthood (which this writer founded) and Moms on Mushrooms also bring together parents to speak about topics that are so stigmatized, they’re rarely spoken about with others.

“Obviously safety is still a primary concern when it comes to kids and psychedelics, let alone issues like pregnancy,” says Andrew Rose, who co-facilitates Plant Parenthood. “But the riskiest thing is not talking about it at all. You can’t have good healthy community education without open, non-judgmental communication.”

Without a clear path for more research on the horizon, and with a landscape of confusing information to draw from, birthing parents will likely struggle to find simple answers. Individuals will still need to factor in their own level of vulnerability, which varies greatly based on race and other socioeconomic and cultural factors. Perhaps the answers we seek do not exist within a search engine, but in a patchwork of wisdom from Western medical research, ancestral knowledge and most importantly, our own inner healing intelligence.

April 19, 2024October 27, 2025

The Microdosing Effect: Connecting the Dots Between Anecdote and Evidence

In 2024, the discourse around the effects of microdosing psychedelics is deeply polarized.

Positioned at opposite ends of the conversation are microdosing evangelists who swear by its benefits and skeptical scientists demanding more empirical evidence.

Ask whether it ‘works,’ and you’ll receive an emphatic ‘yes’ from believers or an all-but-certain ‘no’ from doubters, highlighting a divide that hinges largely on perspective.

Despite plenty of anecdotal reports attesting to the positive effect of microdosing – the practice of taking sub-perceptual or slightly sensory enhancing doses of psilocybin or LSD on a regular basis for wellbeing, to improve focus or diminish depression – the lack of faith is traditionally rooted in an absence of robust science proving its efficacy. But that could all soon change.

MindBio’s Latest Trial Results: Breakthrough or Overreach?

Preliminary clinical data recently released by MindBio Therapeutics, which conducted a minor trial using LSD, suggests that a small dose of the psychedelic could have an boosting effect on energy and mood while reducing depression symptoms.

“We are delighted to share that MB22001 showed rapid and statistically significant improvements with 60% reduction in depressive symptoms and 53% of patients experiencing complete remission from depression,” said Justin Hanka, Chief Executive Officer of MindBio Therapeutics. “These Phase 2 trial results are transformative for the company as it takes its next steps into late-stage pharma.”

This should all be taken with a grain of salt. The sensationalist manner Mindbio announced the latest microdosing results – which have not yet been released in a scientific paper – provoked the ire of some commentators.

Exploring Microdosing’s Effect on Mental Health

But for the many who have benefitted from the effects of microdosing, it’s only a matter of time before the data corroborates their experiences. I decided to ask my Instagram friends about their experiences.

“I was going through a really hard period at home,” one microdoser said. “I felt almost like the mushrooms held me: Everything softened and I felt safe and held. And, after a while, I felt fine without microdosing and didn’t need it anymore.”

Other microdosers say the practice boosts concentration and productivity, echoing LSD-inventor Albert Hofmann, who suggested that low doses could serve as an alternative to pharmaceutical study drugs like Ritalin.

Decades later, that’s pretty much what is happening. Another microdoser said she uses mushrooms instead of Adderall for focus effects, lending weight to a study released last year which reported that microdosing psychedelics boosted mindfulness among adults with ADHD.

“For me it’s a clean, sustained focus with elevated mood,” she said.

Another microdoser said sub-perceptual psychedelics helped her taper off of SSRI medications.

“I was coming off antidepressants and had a horrendous time,” she said. “The mushrooms were my savior. They took away feelings of negativity and made me feel lighter and more at peace.”

Scientific Scrutiny: Measuring the ‘Real’ Effects of Microdosing

Such reports, however, will do little to convince the doubters. This skepticism is compounded by the trend of bots marauding social media conversations about psychedelics, relentlessly regurgitating pro-microdosing talking points and incessantly hawking magic mushroom capsules. The volume of posts, especially on X, has contributed to claims from psychedelics researchers that microdosing is “ridiculously overhyped and predatory.”

Already, there is survey data indicating that microdosing – popularized in Silicon Valley, but not so mainstream that CEOs can’t be fired for taking LSD before meetings – could be a salve. A 2019 paper containing more than 1,000 user reports from people in dozens of countries notes that spaced but repeated microdoses increases positive moods, alleviates migraines and eases premenstrual symptoms.

Other research – and numerous press reports, which began in 2015 when microdosing first entered cultural consciousness – presents the microdose as a versatile tool for increasing contentment effect and improving cognition.

“As of right now, there are still no published clinical trials investigating microdosing on people diagnosed with mental health issues, so their efficacy as a clinical treatment is unknown,” said Manesh Grin, a postdoctoral psychedelic neuroscientist, University of California, San Francisco.

The survey-based papers “generally don’t measure placebo or expectation effects and aren’t the most reliable,” he added, while “in laboratory studies, where they compare against a control group, people do often experience improvements in mood, anxiety, and other measures but so do the people who get an inert placebo and thought they got a microdose.”

The main challenge of the clinical microdosing studies undertaken so far is that most did not observe patients for any significant period – in which time a microdosing protocol might take effect. Perhaps the most robust microdosing study to date, conducted with LSD in New Zealand by University of Auckland associate professor Dr. Suresh Muthukumaraswamy on 14 patients over six weeks, suggests some benefits that are greater than placebo.

“My sense is that, if there are real effects, they are likely particularly for people who are struggling,” added Girn. “Whether they help people who are already healthy and high functioning is more of an open question, but the data so far suggests the effects might only be modest and largely placebo in most cases.”

Some are less enthusiastic about microdosing’s possible efficacy as they believe larger macrodoses, taken less often, are more effective and that there are emerging business interests behind the dubious bots – and others – who seem to want to sell folks a lifetime of pills. Comparing microdosing to psychedelic therapy brings forward many interesting perspectives.

“High-dose psychotherapy (is) about having this transformative experience that one learns from, whereas microdosing psychedelics would be … a traditional psychiatric medicine model,” psychedelic scientist Dr Matthew Johnson tweeted.

“Common for microdosing fans to say: any skeptic hasn’t tried it. Not true,” he said in another tweet last year. “I’ve know [sic] many people (including a number of scientists) who have taken plenty of psychedelics & are believers in high dose therapeutics, who have tried microdosing a bunch and say, meh, not convinced.”

But microdose advocates still maintain that smaller, more regular doses will be more practical, and cheaper, for most people than the hair-raising visionary trips scientists propel themselves into.

Hanka says his company’s data – from a new study led by Muthukumaraswamy – is promising, but that ultimately the jury is still out.

“I’d really like to know for sure that these drugs work better than antidepressants with lower side effects and that is exactly what we are trying to find out,” he said. “I am open minded and will be completely led by the data as we step through clinical trials.”

Studying the effects of a sub-perceptual medicine while calculating the impact of brain power may always be tricky, and the success of any microdose, self-help regime comes down to the intentions and discipline of the microdoser. But I don’t think my Instagram friends are tripping. They didn’t take large doses after all.

Interested in doing your own self-exploration? Consider our Microdosing Masterclass, your complete guide to understanding and integrating the best practices for effective microdosing.

April 2, 2024January 3, 2025

Shulgin Farm and the Future of Psychedelic Drug Development

In this episode, Joe interviews Paul F. Daley, Ph.D., who worked with Sasha Shulgin in his lab for the last seven years of his life, helping him finish (and co-authoring) The Shulgin Index, Volume One: Psychedelic Phenethylamines and Related Compounds.

He is now the co-founder, Chief Science Officer, and Director of Analytical Science at the Alexander Shulgin Research Institute (ASRI), focusing on the discovery and development of novel psychedelic compounds. While Sasha was passionate about self-experimentation, the Institute is aiming for the next step for these drugs: FDA approval.

He discusses:

Meeting Sasha at the 2nd international conference on hallucinogenic mushrooms in Washington D.C.
Bonding with Sasha while reviewing the autopsy of researcher Robert van den Bosch for possible foul play
The two compounds ASRI is closest to being able to test in clinical trials
The 5-HT2B receptor, risk of valvular disease, and why we will likely be hearing more about this going forward
How AI and new technology can lead to better safety science

and more!

Links

Shulginresearch.net

Shulginfoundation.org

Shulginfarm.org

The Pesticide Conspiracy, by Robert van den Bosch

The Shulgin Index, Volume One: Psychedelic Phenethylamines and Related Compounds, by Alexander T. Shulgin, Tania Manning, Paul F. Daley

Drzee.org

Island, by Aldous Huxley

*Book links are affiliate links, meaning that Psychedelics Today will receive a percentage of the sale

February 27, 2024January 3, 2025

Plasticity, the Role of Set and Setting, and the Influence of Psychedelics

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris: founder and head of the Centre for Psychedelic Research at Imperial College London, founding director of the Neuroscape Psychedelics Division at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and founder of the Carhart-Harris Lab.

A legendary researcher, he talks about his psychedelic origins: studying Freud, Jung, and eventually Stan Grof and depth psychology to try and better understand the unconscious. He discusses the growth of psychedelics and the cultural shifts he’s noticed (especially in the U.S.), as well as what he’s working on today: researching the influence of psychedelics on set and setting by studying experiences in both enriched and unenriched environments.

He also talks about:

Plasticity: how he defines it, how it relates to critical reopening periods, and how it’s a fundamental thing that transcends the metrics we use to measure it
Early LSD studies, the nervousness surrounding he and David Nutt dosing Ben Sessa, and the youthful energy that kept them going
How plasticity could be exploited to help relieve chronic pain
The potential of psychedelics to help with fibromyalgia and anorexia
How psychedelic-assisted therapy brought care back to health care

and more!

UCSF is seeking survey volunteers, so if you’ve had more than three experiences with ketamine, MDMA, and psilocybin (must have experiences with all three) and want to contribute, do so here.

Notable Quotes

“In my school of thought, that’s not the problem, that’s the opportunity. When something makes sense but it’s abstract, I’m more led by the fact that it makes sense. The abstraction is an opportunity. It’s a richness, a fertility, and we can really dig into that.”

“You notice when people really put mindfulness to the aesthetic, and they lower the lights and with the music: it doesn’t take long and that much effort, really, before it starts to feel like really caring – like actively caring. And it is an intriguing thing to think that that’s absent in the default, you know? That’s a thing that a colleague said to me once; that she loved the fact that psychedelic therapy brought back care. As someone who went into the mental health care profession, she felt like she could care again, for the first time in a long time. And that was not just ok, that was really promoted and made easier in a sense by the paradigm.”

“There’s different hierarchical levels to these assumptions, but the assumptions are often the problem. They guide our experience of the world, but they can entrench us in certain ways, and that entrenchment can be really at the heart of a lot of psychopathology, a lot of mental illness.”

“I guess one thing I’ve discovered, which is fantastic, is just seeing how broad the community is here around psychedelics, and generationally as well. In London, it was really just a young generation, but here, it really transcends generations, and I really appreciate that. There’s something very normalized about psychedelics here that I started noticing very early on; that it was a topic of polite conversation. …That felt like a glimpse of how it will be, not just here, but elsewhere in the future.”

Links

Carhartharrislab.com

Fill out UCSF’s survey (must have 3+ experiences with ketamine, MDMA, and psilocybin)

PT245 – Robin Carhart-Harris – Psychedelics, Entropy, and Plasticity

Psychedelics Today: Psilocybin for Depression: A Q&A between Robin Carhart-Harris & a Psilocybin Study Participant

The Dream Drugstore: Chemically Altered States of Consciousness, by J. Allan Hobson

Pnas.org: Neural correlates of the psychedelic state as determined by fMRI studies with psilocybin

PT389 – The Art of Ecstasy: The 90’s British Club Scene and MDMA, featuring Rupert Alexander Scriven

February 2, 2024February 2, 2024

PT483 – Traumatic Brain Injuries, the Gut Microbiome, and the Potential of Psychedelics as Anti-Inflammatory Agents

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Kate Pate: Ph.D. neurophysiologist; Founder and CEO of Coruna Medical; founding board member of the Psychedelic Medicine Association; and Founder of The Way Back, a company that will provide education and coaching services related to military, veteran, and first responder health – often in wilderness settings.

She talks about her introduction to psychedelics through the Heroic Hearts Project, where she later served as an integration coach and director of research, looking at psilocybin for traumatic brain injury symptoms, and how the gut microbiome changes after ingesting ayahuasca. She points out that gut health hasn’t been a focus of research, but it’s now emerging as a key indicator of physical and mental health. So, how do psychedelics, particularly plant-based ones, come into play? Are the long term shifts after an experience related to a change in the bacteria inside of us?

She breaks down what a microbiome is and how it changes based on diet; how inflammation is created and the inflammatory cascade that happens after a head injury; how toxins create a stress response similar to an allergic reaction; the frustrations of vets and the limited resources of the VA; the commonality of substance and alcohol use disorders in people coming home from service; the many nonprofits she’s worked with; and how important it is to increase science funding from the government.

Notable Quotes

“There’s a very clear shift in the microbiome population in the individuals who consumed ayahuasca, and it seems to be correlated with the improvements seen afterwards. …I do think that, especially with the psychedelics that are ingested and that come from plants, really, there’s a direct impact on the gut, and I think that can be really beneficial. …There’s an experience that lasts a certain period of time, but there are these long-term changes that persist. And what’s mediating that? Is it just the psychological experience, the spiritual experience? Is it physiology? Are we talking about shifts in the gut or other things controlling inflammation? My suspicion is that it’s all of the above, but we can’t negate the physiological component.”

“Gut health and the GI system used to be sort of like this thing that nobody really cared about. It was not the sexy, fun topic. It was sort of an afterthought of like, ‘It digests your food, that’s all it does.’ And now, it’s the star of the show. I mean, there’s so much to understand and learn there that regulates everything about our physical and mental health, that I think it’s really the target of research in the future.”

“If you eat a Western diet and you drink a lot of alcohol, you’re likely going to have the type of bacteria that colonize the gut that thrive in those kind of conditions, which are more pro-inflammatory. So not only can the bacteria themselves signal the immune system directly, but the metabolites that they’re producing can be very inflammatory and toxic. And that can cause leaky gut, it can influence our nervous system, it can influence our immune system. And all of that can affect, ultimately, mental health, because mental health; all these anxiety and depression-like symptoms and disorders are very highly correlated with inflammatory conditions.”

Links

Thisisthewayback.com

Hunterseven.org

Heroicheartsproject.org

Sciencedirect.com: Psychedelics as potent anti-inflammatory therapeutics

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

Talonsreachfoundation.org

PBabbate.org

Bigskybravery.org

Thestationfoundation.org

Warriorsandquietwaters.org

Confessions of a Hope Fiend, by Timothy Leary

Here Comes Everybody: The Power of Organizing Without Organizations, by Clay Shirky

Psychedelicsandpain.org

Psychedeliceducationcenter.com: Introduction to Psychedelics for Chronic Pain

January 3, 2024March 6, 2024

Gender Challenges in Psychedelic Retreats and Clinical Settings

Do women respond differently to psychedelics than men? And, if so, how are their needs different when approaching these powerful substances?

While crucial research is still limited to help us understand how and why the psychedelic experience might vary vastly among genders, the rise of female-only retreats, clinical settings, and thoughtfully designed psychedelic products and services, are helping provide women safer, more inclusive, and empowering psychedelic experiences.

The Need to Focus on the Female Experience

In an article in MIT Technology Review focusing on women and psychedelics, Juan Pablo Cappello, co-founder and CEO of the ketamine therapy platform Nue Life said, “We started our company knowing that women over 40 are prescribed antidepressants at more than three to four times the rate of men, which has led to one in every five women taking an antidepressant to get through the day.”

Gender differences in the effects of psychedelics remain a topic of mixed evidence, necessitating further investigation. Nevertheless, gender-specific challenges persist. Safety concerns, childcare responsibilities, and the stigma linked to drug use are among women’s hurdles within the psychedelic landscape.

The redesign of healthcare services should prioritize women’s needs. Women frequently experience misdiagnosis and dismissive treatment from healthcare providers, emphasizing the urgency for a more attentive and responsive approach.

One aspect that merits attention is the potential impact of hormonal fluctuations on women’s psychedelic experiences. The menstrual cycle, pregnancy, and menopause can influence the subjective effects and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics, underscoring the need for tailored research that considers these hormonal factors. Moreover, societal expectations and gender norms place pressure on women, shaping their experiences and interpretations of psychedelic encounters. The struggle to balance femininity, career, and family life can affect a woman’s sense of self and her ability to fully engage in the transformative potential of psychedelics.
With psychedelics being non-specific amplifiers, the external setting, the internal set — the mindset and psychological preparedness of the individual — plays a pivotal role. Women may face self-doubt, fear of losing control, or concern about exposure to vulnerable emotions during psychedelic experiences. Carhart-Harris et al. have emphasized the importance of context, including internal barriers that could potentially hinder the therapeutic benefits of the journey.

Underrepresentation and Male Dominance

Historically, women have been underrepresented in clinical trials across various therapeutic areas, and psychedelics are no exception. For example, the term “inclusion of women” refers to the legal mandate outlined in the National Institutes of Health Revitalization Act of 1993, which requires the involvement of women as subjects in clinical research. This mandate applies to all clinical research funded by NIH unless it is deemed “inappropriate with respect to the health of the subjects,” “inappropriate with respect to the purpose of the research,” or “inappropriate under such other circumstances as the Director of NIH may designate.”

This gender bias limits our understanding of the specific effects, safety profiles, and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics for women. The limited diversity among research participants has considerable implications for the generalizability and dissemination of treatments. Research suggests that women may exhibit different responses to psychedelics compared to men.

For example, a recent article examined the adverse effects of drugs targeting serotonin GPCRs in the CNS and PNS. These drugs interact with serotonin GPCRs in the brain and various peripheral areas, potentially causing side effects. Estrogen, which is more prevalent in women, influences serotonin synthesis and receptor densities, and drugs targeting serotonin GPCRs disrupt this process. The periodic increase in estrogen levels and the interference with the serotonin system mediated by estrogen could explain why women experience more adverse effects. Women also have lower serotonin concentrations and faster serotonin metabolism than men, which may contribute to the observed differences.

Biological factors, such as hormonal fluctuations, make research on women more complex and, therefore, more expensive. This highlights the necessity of considering gender as a factor in understanding the impact of psychedelics on mental health and well-being. Menstrual cycles, pregnancy, and menopause can influence the subjective effects and therapeutic outcomes of psychedelics. It is also worth consideration that many women experience disruptions in their menstrual cycles. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2022, “most females ages 18-64 (90%) have used contraceptives at some point in their reproductive years, and most have used more than one contraceptive method throughout their lifetime (76%).”

Gender disparity extends beyond research and permeates psychedelic communities, retreat centers, and therapeutic settings. Women may experience subtle or overt forms of discrimination, objectification, or microaggressions, negatively impacting their sense of safety, trust, and overall well-being. Addressing these systemic issues requires a concerted effort to challenge and dismantle patriarchal structures, promote inclusivity, and amplify women’s voices within the psychedelic landscape.

The pharmaceutical industry’s growing interest in psychedelic therapy necessitates a deliberate focus on gender equality and inclusion. As psychedelics become more accepted by the mainstream, it’s essential to ensure that the creation, promotion, and delivery of psychedelic therapies take into account the specific needs of different genders. This entails promoting gender-balanced research teams, conducting gender-sensitive clinical trials, and tailoring interventions to address the diversity of the human species.

While exploring women’s experiences in the psychedelic space, it is also essential to recognize and acknowledge the intersectionality of gender. The experiences of non-binary individuals, as well as those who do not conform to traditional gender norms, deserve attention and inclusion in research and discourse. Non-binary individuals may face unique challenges in navigating psychedelic experiences as they navigate intersecting identities and societal expectations. Let’s foster an inclusive and respectful psychedelic community.

Research into Women’s Bodies

Today, there is limited psychedelic research on factors like drug metabolism, hormonal contraceptives, and womens’ unique physiological traits, hindering the development of tailored psychedelic guidelines and creating unique safety concerns for women who take psychedelics.

Variations in drug metabolism, potential interactions with hormonal contraceptives or reproductive health conditions, and other physiological factors may influence the safety and efficacy of psychedelic experiences for women. Though complex and expensive, funding research focused on women’s bodies and tailoring medicine accordingly will be a game changer.

Certain psychedelics have been associated with increased blood pressure and heart rate, potentially posing distinct implications for women compared to men due to physiological differences. The absence of adequate data raises obstacles in providing accurate information, guidelines, and risk assessments to support women in making informed decisions about psychedelic use.

Studies highlight the relationship between estrogen and serotonin 5-HT2A receptors. Classic psychedelics work by activating serotonin, and research indicates that estrogen enhances receptor density in brain areas governing mood, emotion, cognition, and behavior. This connection may offer insights into gender-based variations in conditions like schizophrenia and depression, more prevalent in women. Additionally, disruptions in estrogen during menopause could affect the 5-HT2A and brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) signalling pathway, potentially predisposing the brain to depression.

The scarcity of research on women’s experiences using psychedelics to support the process of motherhood and postpartum care poses additional challenges. The limited research perpetuates the perception that psychedelics may pose additional risks to pregnant women or those breastfeeding. Without concrete evidence, caution is often prioritized, leading to a blanket discouragement of psychedelic use during these periods. While caution is essential, the absence of research leaves the potential benefits or risks associated with psychedelic use during pregnancy or breastfeeding unclear, further perpetuating uncertainty and fear.

To address these concerns, there is a need for studies that examine the physiological, psychological, and experiential aspects of psychedelic use in women. Such studies should take into consideration menstrual cycles (including those influenced by birth control), hormonal fluctuations, and reproductive health.

Societal Expectations of Femininity and Motherhood: Safety Concerns

The societal expectations tied to femininity and motherhood can significantly influence women engaging with psychedelics, similar to how men navigate their own situations and societal pressures. These norms shape our human experiences, create additional burdens, and contribute to safety concerns and stigma surrounding psychedelic use. Women may sense societal pressure to conform to traditional gender roles, limiting their willingness to explore psychedelic experiences. Fear of judgment and stigmatization, along with challenges reconciling maternal responsibilities, can constrain their ability to fully embrace the therapeutic potential of psychedelics.

Moreover, internalized notions of femininity can lead to self-doubt, fear of losing control, or concerns about expressing vulnerable emotions during psychedelic experiences. Women may grapple with the balance between societal expectations and personal growth, inhibiting their ability to surrender to the psychedelic experience.

Sexual Assault in Psychedelic Spaces

The issue of sexual assault in psychedelic spaces has garnered significant attention in recent years, with instances of misconduct and exploitation reported within the community. Such incidents harm individuals and contribute to the stigmatization and fear surrounding psychedelic compounds. These concerns further emphasize the importance of providing safe and supportive settings, prioritizing consent and boundaries, and promoting gender equality.

While psychedelics hold tremendous therapeutic potential, the occurrence of sexual assault within psychedelic spaces remains a disturbing reality. Addressing conscious consent, creating safe environments, and implementing policies to prevent and respond to assault are crucial steps in fostering a culture of safety and respect.

After movements like #MeToo, female-only spaces have become safe havens for women to explore psychedelic experiences without fearing male dominance and sexual assault. These spaces provide a supportive and empowering environment, allowing women to navigate their journeys free from the constraints of societal expectations and potential gender-based harm. Such spaces recognize the importance of reclaiming agency, voice, and autonomy for women within the psychedelic realm.

The Rise of Women-Only Retreats

Women-only retreats create a unique and transformative space for women to explore their inner worlds, cultivate deep connections with one another, and embark on journeys of self-discovery and healing. Such retreats provide a safe space where participants can fully embrace vulnerability. The absence of men often fosters an environment where women feel more comfortable sharing their deepest fears, hopes, and emotions. This sense of safety encourages authentic exploration and expression during psychedelic experiences, helping women ‘take up space’.

Women-only retreats tend to nurture a profound sense of sisterhood and community. The shared experiences, both during and between psychedelic sessions, can forge lasting bonds and connections. These connections often lead to a deep sense of belonging and support, facilitating sustained relationships beyond the retreat experience.

Women-only retreats also provide participants with the opportunity to explore and reclaim their narratives and identities. Many women join these retreats with experiences of societal and cultural expectations, traumas, and limitations. Psychedelic experiences within this supportive environment can pave the way for self-liberation, empowering women to redefine themselves and their place in the world on their own terms.

Many of these retreats often focus on the exploration and celebration of feminine energy and aspects of the self. This journey can be deeply healing, helping women reestablish a connection with their inner wisdom, intuition, and creativity. Additionally, it can foster a deeper appreciation for the unique strengths and qualities that women bring to the world.

Held frequently in natural settings, many women-only retreats incorporate rituals and ceremonies. Reconnecting with nature and participating in rituals can deepen the psychedelic experience, helping participants feel more in tune with the cycles of life and the natural world. This reconnection can be both spiritually and emotionally enriching, assisting many women in reconnecting with the cycles of their bodies.

In her role as a psychedelic facilitator, Jessika has witnessed women emerging from these retreats with a newfound sense of purpose, self-love, and empowerment. This unique quality of women-only retreats lies in their ability to provide a nurturing and transformative space where women can explore the depths of their psyche, connect profoundly with others, and emerge as stronger, more authentic versions of themselves.

Designing Just for Women

Innovating with women-centered design in mind calls for products and services to be designed for, with, and by women, based on their specific needs. It also requires clearly conveying and enforcing guidelines for respectful communication, boundaries, and consent throughout the process.

The world we live in has been shaped by designers, and it is noteworthy that the creative industry, responsible for much of this design, tends to be male-dominated.

The seatbelt serves as the most cited example of a product designed for men but commonly used by women for safety. Using crash test dummies based on average male sizes and weights has resulted in significant safety disparities for women, making them 73% more likely to be injured in a car accident. Beyond physical safety concerns, women face ongoing challenges related to everyday comfort and practicality. Consider the dilemma faced by pregnant women when deciding whether to position the seatbelt above or below their bellies. Another everyday example is the smartphone, tailored for the average male hand, and transforming into a cumbersome object in the grasp of the average woman.

Taking into account the significant impact of these design hurdles on women’s lives, it warrants a thoughtful approach to designing specifically for women in the context of mind-altering substances. Jemma Campbell, head of U.S. creative of Moving Brands, notes “It is very easy to think that design is aesthetics and aesthetics alone. Design is about much more than aesthetics – it’s about solving real-world problems and improving lives. When done right, it gives brands the ability to build connections with people much like human relationships.”

Focusing solely on aesthetics and neglecting research, strategy, and the overall product experience means you might project your own perspective, adopt codes rooted in learned behaviors and societal norms, and follow cues that may not lead to the best solutions.

“So, when it comes to creating women-only spaces for psychedelic treatment, when patients may feel vulnerable and exposed, we need to fully understand and reflect their unique needs and experiences. And that means women designers must not only be involved – they must be leading the vision,” Campbell says.

Key Considerations in Psychedelic Design for Women

Include More Female Designers, Scientists, Researchers, and Engineers

Women buy or influence 85% of all consumer purchases, control 73% of household spending, and make 69% of household health decisions. However, research consistently demonstrates that women are not satisfied with the product and service innovations offered to them. One possible reason: 85% of product designers and engineers are men. In areas like healthcare, where setting and environment are critical, designing with empathy is vital. It’s what makes having diverse design teams so important. Therefore, actively seek the involvement of more female designers, scientists, researchers, and engineers. Diverse teams bring a broader range of perspectives and insights, essential for understanding and meeting the unique needs and preferences of women consumers.

Listen and Learn

Cultivate a culture of inclusivity and diversity within design teams, fostering an environment where women from diverse backgrounds feel comfortable sharing their perspectives and experiences. Actively listen to their feedback, concerns, and ideas, and use this input to drive innovation and product development. Establish a safe and confidential space where women can share without judgment or fear of repercussions. Start small and build it organically.

Increase the representation of women in leadership positions and decision-making roles within design and engineering teams. When women have a seat at the table, they can advocate for designs and innovations that better resonate with female consumers.

User-Centered Design

Prioritize user-centered design principles, ensuring that products and experiences are designed with women in mind. Conduct thorough research to understand their needs, preferences, and pain points, involving women from diverse backgrounds and age groups. The experience doesn’t commence solely upon entering a clinic, retreat space, or product use; it begins with communication. For instance, inviting individuals to observe a retreat to ease them in or incorporating controlled microdosing to facilitate their entry could be part of designing the overall experience.

Collaboration

Collaborate with women’s organizations, advocacy groups, and female-focused communities to gain insights and build strong connections with potential users. These collaborations can lead to valuable co-creation opportunities.

In an ideal healthcare scenario, we envision truly bespoke care tailored to individual needs, irrespective of gender, becoming the norm. While acknowledging the historical challenges and potential future obstacles, we, as professionals, understand the complexities. Yet, as women, we recognize the oversight of subtle but crucial distinctions in female bodies and systems. The lingering patriarchal influence in Western research, product, and system development is a fact. We are now on the journey toward equal opportunities. Undertaking specialized research, embracing user-centered design, and holding space to heal past trauma, we hope to see a more inclusive and supportive psychedelic landscape, where everyone’s distinct needs and perspectives receive the recognition and respect they deserve.

December 22, 2023December 23, 2023

PT471 – The Evolution of LSD Psychotherapy, the Power of Breathwork, and Why We Should be Taking Archetypal Astrology More Seriously

In this episode, Joe and Kyle are honored to welcome back Stanislav and Brigitte Grof: Stan being the person who kickstarted their interest in non-ordinary states of consciousness, breathwork, and this podcast; and Brigitte: his other half, co-creator of Grof® Legacy Training, and support system (and often, voice) since his stroke a few years back.

They discuss the recently released Stanislav Grof, LSD Pioneer: From Pharmacology to Archetypes, which Brigitte assembled in honor of Stan’s 90th birthday. It celebrates his life’s work in pioneering research into non-ordinary states of consciousness and transpersonal psychology, and features an extended interview with Stan; testimonials from a number of legends in the psychedelic and psychological fields like Jack Kornfield, Rupert Sheldrake, Richard Tarnas, and Fritjof Capra; and a large photo album of rarely seen pictures, including Stan doing his first experiments with LSD.

And they talk about so much more: The evolution of LSD psychotherapy as Stan realized people’s experiences were coming from the psyche rather than any pharmacology; why he started practicing and teaching breathwork; Stan’s love of treasure hunts; how the perinatal matrices were born and how each corresponds to astrology and religious archetypes; why experience in breathwork can be so beneficial to better psychedelic experiences and facilitation; why integration is equally as important as the experience; and an argument to take archetypal astrology more seriously – that there is often a synchronicity that can’t be denied between these archetypes, events, and experiences.

Notable Quotes

“I was surprised that people were having very, very different experiences. And then when [they] had these substances repeatedly; then again, it was completely different. …So I realized that this had nothing to do with chemistry, this had nothing to do with pharmacology, and that it’s basically about the psyche.” -Stan

“I have to say I’m extremely grateful for the map that he found and he gave to all of us, especially in The Way of the Psychonaut, his life’s work, encyclopedia. All the knowledge is there. And when I go to these places myself and I get into the pits, I can, in the back of my head, remember, ‘Oh, this is what Stan was writing about, so it should be okay. I’m going to get out of this.’ So I think everybody who is doing these journeys should know about Stan’s findings. It’s just so mega helpful.” -Brigitte

“When you hear what people say later or you see the creativity and the power of energy that gets released, then the liberation, it’s so amazing, and so healing and very exciting. And the people sometimes say, ‘How do you live with all that screaming?’ And I said, ‘Well, it’s music in my ears, because so much of the suffering is silent. So when these things come out and they get expressed, they’re leaving the system and people get liberated. So once you understand that, then you’re good.’” -Brigitte

“When we do breathwork, then you add to it breathing, and actually, the intelligence; it brings its own thought. And then of course, bringing in LSD, psychedelics: it’s even further. But the idea is to always work with the psyche. You don’t need any specific tricks.” -Stan

Links

Stangrof.com

Brigittegrof.com

Grof-legacy-training.com

Thewayofthepsychonaut.com

The Way of the Psychonaut: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys (Volume One), by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D. (Volume Two)

Stanislav Grof, LSD Pioneer: From Pharmacology to Archetypes, by Brigitte Grof

Psychedelics Today: PT293 – Stanislav & Brigitte Grof – The Evolution of Breathwork and The Psychology of the Future

Psychedelics Today: Renn Butler – Holotropic Breathwork and Archetypal Astrology

Psychedelics Today: PT291 – Rick Tarnas & Sean Kelly, Ph.D. – The Impact of Stanislav Grof, Ego Death, and The Psyche Unbound

The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Stan Grof (#347)

Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View, by Richard Tarnas

Changingofthegods.com

Stangrof.com: Holotropic Research and Archetypal Astrology

November 28, 2023November 28, 2023

PT464 – Bodywork, Somatic Literacy, and Understanding Trauma: The Mind and Body Connection

In this episode, Kyle interviews Bessel van der Kolk, MD: pioneer clinician, researcher, and educator on traumatic stress; Founder of the Trauma Research Foundation; Professor of Psychiatry at Boston University Medical School; Principal Investigator of the Boston site of MAPS’ MDMA-assisted psychotherapy study; and author of the #1 New York Times Science best seller, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Treatment of Trauma.

As of this recording, van der Kolk was publishing his last paper and closing down his laboratory, so he looks back on his past: being part of the group who put together the first PTSD diagnosis in the 80s; the early days of psychedelic research and how he discouraged Rick Doblin and Michael Mithoefer from pursuing MDMA research; how the DSM has no scientific validity and was never meant for the diagnosing it’s being used for; how science wasn’t seeing the whole picture and pushing us mindlessly from medication to medication; and how trauma research has evolved over the years as society learned more about how the mind actually works.

He discusses the struggle to validate “softer” sciences; the impracticality and price of the MAPS protocol and the need for more group and sitter/experiencer frameworks; the efficacy of psychodrama and how that plays out in group sessions; his interest in using the Rorschach test more; how rolfing helped him; the problem with diagnosis and people becoming their illnesses; bodywork, somatic literacy, and how disconnected most people are from their bodies; and how, in all the healing frameworks he’s explored, he has never seen anything work as profoundly as psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Notable Quotes

“I have quite a few friends who are sort of major scientists. And I asked my friends, ‘So, did you take acid also in college?’ All my friends said, ‘Yes, I did.’ And I say, ‘So, how do you think it affected you?’ And my friends generally say, ‘Well, I think it really accounts from my having become a good scientist, because I got to appreciate that the reality that I hold inside of myself is just a small fragment of the overall reality that is.’”

“It was really very gratifying for me to be part of a psychedelic team the past 10 years or so, where we got to see the astounding transformations that people go through on psychedelics – more than anything else that I’ve seen in my career, and I’ve studied many different methods. I’ve studied other things that also turned out to be quite helpful like EMDR and Internal Family Systems therapy and theater and yoga, but the transformations on psychedelics were really astonishing and made me really hopeful that we may enter a much more complex era of thinking about mental functioning.”

“It’s delicate, but we keep running away from it. But the reality is that if you really feel upset, getting a hug from somebody who loves you makes all the difference in the world, of course. That’s still our primary way in which we feel calm. And touch by other people may also scare the shit out of you and send you into a tailspin. So doing that right is very delicate and fraught with danger, but that doesn’t mean we can just keep running away from it.”

Links

Besselvanderkolk.com

Traumaresearchfoundation.org

Neurosciencenews.com: Why Our Brains Prefer Symbols to Words

Wikipedia.org: Rolfing

Mangu.tv: From Shock To Awe: A journey of hope and transformation

Apollo Neuro: Click here to get $50 off an Apollo wearable!

November 21, 2023November 21, 2023

PT462 – Touch Therapy, Wearable Technology, and Treating Trauma with Safety

In this episode, Joe interviews neuroscientist, board-certified psychiatrist, health tech entrepreneur, inventor, and Co-Founder & Chief Medical Officer at Apollo Neuro: Dr. Dave Rabin, MD, Ph.D.

He talks about his path to psychiatry; his realization that trauma and chronic stress were primary themes at the root of most mental illness; and the creation, research and implementation of the Apollo wearable: the first scientifically-validated wearable technology designed to improve energy, focus, and relaxation based on touch therapy. The idea was born from Rabin asking himself: If we’re all starved for touch and constantly feeling unsafe, our bodies prefer a calm, soothed state, and MDMA seems to work by amplifying feelings of safety and essentially telling our brains, “you’re safe enough to heal now,” could a rhythmic vibration programmed to stimulate touch receptors and put our bodies into a meditative state fool our brains into the same perceived feeling of safety – especially if that stimulation is constant? Would our nervous systems be able to tell the difference? So far, the data seems to prove that this technology works.

He discusses what they learned from initial research about how people were using their Apollo wearables; heart rate variability and what changes it; MAPS’ Phase III MDMA-assisted psychotherapy results; the idea of the inner healer; using the Apollo in conjunction with ketamine and other psychedelics to ease pre-experience anxiety; and the concept of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy as reverse trauma, the reality that it could stop epigenetic memory, and the question of whether or not the Apollo can do this on its own.

Apollo Neuro is continuing their research by running 14 different trials right now, and if you ever participated in a MAPS trial, you’re eligible for a free wearable. If you’re just curious about trying the Apollo, you can receive $50 off using this link.

Notable Quotes

“What we’ve learned through the study of all the work that came before us was that the body actually likes to be in that state. It likes to be in this calm, soothed state, and it’s just overwhelmed and overstimulated a lot of the time and that’s why it’s not in that state. So then the research question was: If we deliver the rhythm that our bodies like to breathe at when they’re at rest (which is like five to seven breaths per minute when we’re normally breathing at 12 to 24 breaths per minute, which is stress breathing), then would the body start to automatically breathe at its ideal rhythm on its own simply by receiving the right rhythm? Is that enough? Like, if you play the right dance beat, will people start dancing on their own or will they just sit in the chair?”

“The word ‘hallucination’ implies that what you’re experiencing is not real, and I hesitate to use that word in the context of psychedelic work because ‘psychedelic’ means to reveal the mind. And so, if we put out the understanding that the revelation of what’s underneath the surface of our consciousness in our minds is not real or hallucinatory, then we might be missing a lot of the meaning of what’s actually underneath the surface.”

“If we are able to show that other safety-based treatments, whether it’s MDMA or traditional ceremonial ayahuasca or other things, or ketamine therapy, or Apollo, or soothing touch: If any of these things are inducing similar changes to cortisol receptors that we saw in that MDMA trial, then we know it’s not the drug that is inducing the healing state. It’s the safety that is amplified by the drug that produces the healing response. And that will be really, really helpful to us as a field to understand what we actually need to heal. I think the theory is [that] we need to feel safe enough to heal. This would actually prove that.”

Links

Drdave.io

Apolloneuro.com

Apolloneuro.com: studies roundup

Boardofmedicine.org

Saving Normal: An Insider’s Revolt Against Out-Of-Control Psychiatric Diagnosis, DSM-5, Big Pharma, and the Medicalization of Ordinary Life, by Allen Frances, M.D.

Thepsychedelic.report

The Psychedelic Report: Can MDMA-Assisted Therapy Repair our Epigenetics with Dr. Candace Lewis PhD

Your Brain Explained: Breaking Down Trauma w/ Dr. Gabor Maté & Dr. Rachel Yehuda

Apollo Neuro: Click here to get $50 off an Apollo wearable!

November 7, 2023November 20, 2023

PT458 – When Science, Society, and Policy Collide

In this episode, Joe interviews Imran Khan: Executive Director of the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics.

Khan shares his journey into the world of science and policymaking, beginning with science journalism and inspired by David Nutt’s famous ‘Equasy’ paper and subsequent firing for telling the truth. Realizing how strong the disconnect was between political and science worlds, his goal became to represent science when it comes under attack; using campaigning, lobbying, advocacy work, etc., and essentially becoming a translator between science and society – bringing these overly complicated concepts down to a level every day culture can understand. At UC Berkeley, he’s focusing on research, training scientists to be better communicators, educating the public on the benefits of psychedelics, and trying to make research more trustworthy.

He discusses the word “science” and how it’s used to describe lots of things; the hard problem of consciousness; color constancy, perception, and the influence of priors; the risk of abuse in all therapies; trust and why people don’t always “trust the science”; the risks of putting too much faith in experience insights; the word “sacred”; and more. He concludes by discussing the findings of the first UC Berkeley psychedelic survey, which revealed public sentiments and attitudes towards psychedelics, and, while mostly positive, truly proved the need for people like Khan to be out there educating the public.

Notable Quotes

“They fired [David Nutt] from his role as Independent Advisor and Chair of this Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs. So I’m sitting there as this 20 year-old that all I’m there to do is care about how science works, and how do we protect the voice of scientists in policy-making, and how do we ensure that policy is informed by the evidence rather than going in the face of it, and right in the middle of that, this very high profile scientist basically gets sacked by the government for basically just saying what the science says, which, as far as I can see, was all he was being asked to do.”

“It’s really hard to look at the experience of being human and this amazing, vivid, technicolor experience we have of walking around and doing everything from drinking coffee to walking a dog to looking at a sunrise, and not being totally bemused that that experience can be generated by this two pound lump of mostly water with a bit of fat and protein mixed in in our skulls. That just seems like an insane proposition to me. So I remember when I was learning about that in my undergraduate and kind of trying to figure out the basic principles of neuroscience, it just seemed like this amazing question of: How can this ever be possible? This doesn’t seem like it should compute.”

“Experiences with psychedelics later as well, I think lead you to a similar place in that if you disrupt ordinary waking consciousness, you can almost start to see the way in which your brain changes its production of consciousness. And the idea that that dramatic change can be induced by chemicals that we know the structure of and we can characterize and we can understand how they interact with the brain, again, just feels like an interesting kind of chink in that bigger question of: What is consciousness and who are we, and how do we relate to the rest of the world?”

Links

Psychedelics.berkeley.edu

Journals.sagepub.com: Equasy – An overlooked addiction with implications for the current debate on drug harms

Sciencecampaign.org.uk

Britishscienceassociation.org

Wellcome.org

Psychedelics.berkeley.edu: Psychedelics and the Mind: Deepening Understanding of the Science, History, and Culture of Psychedelic Substances

I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World, by Rachel Nuwer

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

Apollo Neuro: Click here to get $50 off an Apollo wearable!

October 31, 2023January 8, 2024

PT456 – Moloch, Kairos, Extended-State DMT, and the Spider Queen

In this episode, David interviews Alexander Beiner: an Executive Director of Breaking Convention; writer of The Bigger Picture substack; and author of The Bigger Picture: How Psychedelics Can Help Us Make Sense of the World.

He tells his personal story and how his first psychedelic experience felt like a homecoming; discusses his Rebel Wisdom media platform, where, through interviews, he tried to make sense of social upheavals and conflicts through a more flexible, psychedelic way of thinking; and digs deep into the Greek concepts of Moloch and Kairos: how Moloch represents the winner-take-all, race to the bottom, sacrifice-your-values-to-appease-the-system game playing we all get stuck in, and Kairos represents the openness that comes from psychedelics – the transitional, seize-the-moment opportunities we need to take advantage of. And he discusses much more: the power of dialectic inquiry; the corporatization of psychedelics and how we’re really in a psychedelic enlightenment; how the medicalization of psychedelics is like a Trojan horse; and the concept of technology (and specifically the internet) mirroring the switching between realms that we think is so rare in psychedelics – aren’t we doing that every time we look at our phones?

Beiner was recently part of Imperial College London’s initial trials on intravenous, extended-state DMT, testing correct dosages and speeds for the pump. He describes the details of the study, how he thought they were messing with him at first, and what he saw in his experiences: an outer space-like world of gigantic planet-like entities, and how a massive Spider Queen entity taught him about intimacy and how our metaphysical and personal worlds aren’t separate at all.

Notable Quotes

“There’s a particularly psychedelic way of thinking in my view. …I would define it as a flexibility in how we think and a looseness and a creativity and a playfulness with how we approach the world that psychedelics can open up in us. And I think that’s so deeply needed right now. So my hope is to kind of combine that ethos together with a lot of very practically important, interesting, sociological, psychological, scientific, and metaphysical insights, and use all of that to write a book that hopefully gives people new lenses in which to make sense of the world and psychedelics.”

“The process of speaking to the truth of your lived experience in the moment is deeply transformative. And it’s also, in my experience and I think the experience of many people, it’s what psychedelics encourage us to do: They encourage us to be with the truth of our experience and go into what we’ve been hiding from and avoiding, and feel it – feel the truth of what’s actually going on. And that is so, so powerful culturally because so many of our cultural shadows and our polarization and our ‘at each other’s throats’ and our ideological fixations come from these unsaid things. So there’s so many practices, psychedelics included, that can open us up into the truth of what’s going on. And I think that is just the most transformative practice or approach that there is that I’m aware of.”

Links

Alexanderbeiner.com

The Bigger Picture: How Psychedelics Can Help Us Make Sense of the World, by Alexander Beiner

Beiner.substack.com

Breakingconvention.co.uk

Poetryfoundation.org: Howl, by Allen Ginsberg

Slatestarcodex.com: Meditations on Moloch, by Allen Ginsberg

YouTube: The Rise of Psychedelic Capitalism

No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model, by Richard Schwartz, Ph.D.

Alieninsect.substack.com: DMTx: The First Results…

DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor’s Revolutionary Research Into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences, by Rick Strassman. M.D.

Nonordinary.com

Awakenthemedicinewithin.com: Upcoming retreats

Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge a Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution, by Terence McKenna

October 20, 2023October 30, 2023

PT453 – Neuroplasticity, Individualized Integration, and Psychedelic Medicine – Israel 2024

In this episode, David interviews psychiatrist, main researcher behind the first US Phase II trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, and Senior Medical Director at MAPS Public Benefit Corporation: Dr. Michael Mithoefer; and Research Group Lead at the University of Zurich, and Principal Clinical Biomarker Lead at Boehringer Ingelheim, Katrin Preller, Ph.D.

Mithoefer, Preller (and David) are speakers at Psychedelic Medicine – Israel, which will now take place July 28 – 31, 2024, in Tel Aviv. They discuss the conference and their current research: Preller’s neuroimaging and work with psilocybin for alcohol use disorder, and Mithoefer (likely) being extremely close to seeing the FDA approve MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. He talks about how the therapeutic protocols for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy were created, what it’s like to be so close to legalization, and how the next challenges will be accessibility and not minimizing therapy in favor of faster turnover.

They discuss neuroplasticity and whether or not it actually translates into something in humans; the concept of performing brain scans before a psychedelic experience to look for trauma biomarkers (and how this could actually result in savings over time); the excitement of seeing clinical work and neuroscience progressing in parallel; why integration frameworks need to be individualized; and the importance of embracing different therapeutic approaches.

Notable Quotes

“We need to find ways to make it increase the cost effectiveness or the efficiency without losing the human connection and the inclusion of robust therapy in the process. So it’s a big challenge. But in the research, we’ve done everything we could think of to increase the chances of safety and success and efficacy. So we couldn’t individualize. So I think part of it will be figuring out: some people may need even more support than they had in the research, but some people may be able to do it in a more streamlined way, and also groups and things like that. So I think we need to be really creative about how to do it and also resist the pressures of minimizing the therapy and the human connection in favor of speed.” -Michael

“We’ve already shown in healthy participants that basically the way your brain is working without any substances on board is associated with the way your brain reacts to a psychedelic. And we’ve seen that across different brain metrics. That doesn’t tell us anything about clinical efficacy quite yet, but it tells us that there is something in your usual daily waking state that may have to do with how you react to a psychedelic. Now, the next step would then, of course be: well, can we close the gap on how you react to the psychedelic, whether that has something to do with whether or not you actually get better after psychedelic or MDMA-assisted therapy? So there are many gaps for sure at this point, but I think that doing this research, we may eventually be able to close these gaps and eventually maybe have an idea of who may benefit, who may not benefit, [or] whether MDMA is the correct or the most beneficial treatment versus psilocybin.” -Katrin

“One of the dangers I see if these drugs are approved is thinking you need more drug, you need higher doses, you need it more often or whatever, instead of: You need more integration.” -Michael

Links

Psychmedisrael.com

Pharmaco-Neuroimaging and Cognitive-Emotional Processing (PD Dr. K. Preller)

Novasupport.org

LSD Psychotherapy: The Healing Potential of Psychedelic Medicine, by Stanislav Grof

Crisis Support – Music Festival Victims in Israel- GoFundMe organized by Daniel McQueen and Kate Burleson

October 17, 2023October 17, 2023

PT452 – Metaplasticity, Reopening Critical Periods, and Octopuses on MDMA

In this episode, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. and Manesh Girn, Ph.D. once again take over hosting duties, this time interviewing Gül Dölen, MD, Ph.D.: Associate professor of Neuroscience and Neurology at the Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine, and head of the Dölen lab.

Dölen largely researches the neuroscience behind social behaviors and is most known for her work in establishing how psychedelics reopen critical periods of learning, and that the true benefit of psychedelics could be in learning how best to reopen those critical periods, how long they’re open for, and which therapeutic frameworks and integration practices could best take advantage of them. Her most recent research was giving MDMA to otherwise very asocial (and violent) octopuses to prove that a drastically different species would exhibit typical MDMA-inspired prosocial behavior. And, after discovering that all the classic psychedelics worked to reopen critical periods – that psychedelics are apparently the master key to opening these periods – she’s now researching why, through the PHATHOM project (Psychedelic Healing: Adjunct Therapy Harnessing Opened Malleability).

You will likely learn a ton in this episode: why critical periods close as we get older and what may impede them from opening more often; how plasticity and metaplasticity relate to each other and why increased neuroplasticity isn’t always a good thing; how the length of different psychedelic experiences relates to efficacy; why the different results of MAPS’ and Compass Pathways’ studies show the importance of therapy; how autism could be related to critical periods; why repeated psychedelic use may make it harder for one’s brain to reset; and how important context is in the ability to reopen critical periods – especially around social learning.

Notable Quotes

“I was at Johns Hopkins and I remember my department chair was like, ‘Gul, we hired you to cure autism. What the hell is this octopus MDMA [stuff]?’ And I was like, ‘Just wait, it’s going to be awesome. You’ll see.’”

“We were really surprised that they all reopened this critical period. And what it suggested to us is that what it feels like to reopen a critical period is just what it feels like to be in that altered state of consciousness that’s shared across all of the psychedelics.”

“[Psychedelics] have this thing which all of the drug companies are seeing as a glitch, but I actually think is a feature, which is this context dependence. So, the fact that the drugs are context-dependent means that you’re only going to reorganize the extracellular matrix and the network of synaptic plasticity at these synapses within these circuits in the subset of circuits and synapses that are relevant to that particular context or that set of memories. And because you’re sort of fine-tuning it in that way, I think it somehow circumvents this problem of structural instability or amnesia. So we’re going to spend the next 10 years trying to figure out how the neurons know what context they’re in.”

“Really, the utility of psychedelics is pairing it with a therapy, and that the therapy is the principle and the psychedelic is just the adjunct therapy that makes that learning so much easier. And so, the way I would frame it is that right now, we’re at a kind of debate point between the biochemical model and the learning model of how not just depression, PTSD, but every disorder of the brain is, in some sense, a disruption in the learned pattern, and that if psychedelics are not just restoring a biochemical imbalance but enabling learning, then we can relearn. And that would really be a paradigm shift in our way of understanding why psychedelics are useful in so many different therapeutic contexts and what other diseases and non-diseases we might be able to use psychedelics to help treat.”

Links

Dolenlab.org

Pubmed: Oxytocin-dependent reopening of a social reward learning critical period with MDMA

Nature.com: Psychedelics reopen the social reward learning critical period

Maps.org: MAPS PBC Publishes Results of Successful Confirmatory Phase 3 Trial of MDMA-Assisted Therapy for PTSD

PHATHOM (Psychedelic Healing: Adjunct Therapy Harnessing Opened Malleability) – Stroke Project

Class begins November 1. Click here for more details.

October 12, 2023October 12, 2023

PT450 – Dreams, Psychedelics, Symbolism, and Cockroaches

In this episode, Johanna interviews Jungian analyst-in-training, writer, researcher, 5Rhythms® teacher, and Vital graduate: Mackenzie Amara; and Vital instructor, clinical psychologist, and creator of our new course, “Illuminating the Hidden Self: Navigating the Jungian Shadow with Psychedelics“: Dr. Ido Cohen.

This sequel to their fascinating discussion about shadow work earlier this year focuses on dreams, as Amara, while dreaming that she was having an acid trip and coming to the realization that dreams and LSD may be sending her to the same place, is researching the similarities between the odd worlds of dreams and psychedelic experiences: Is it the same place? Do the dreams we have after psychedelic experiences continue those visions and ‘Aha!’ moments? Can they answer questions for us (the concept of “sleep on it”)? Does dream analysis result in a greater feeling of integration? Can we use the dreams we have before experiences to help guide the experience itself?

The conversation goes a lot of places: the many aspects of Jungian psychology; the fluidity of Indigenous perspectives around visible and invisible worlds; how Jung wrote “The Red Book”; the concept of eros and reclaiming our relationship with aliveness; how nature is in constant equilibrium (as are we); how to build a relationship with your dreams; how to work with symbols in dreams; and much more. Ultimately, this episode is about the clash between the conscious and unconscious, the willed and the incidental, and waking life and other realities, and dream analysis and integration work is really tracking vitality in the human psyche: what is alive in us and how does it want to live out in our beings? What makes us come alive? Can our dreams tell us?

Notable Quotes

“I was inside my dream, analyzing my dream, and having the phenomenological experience of being on LSD, and it was like, ‘Holy shit, is this the same place?’” -Mackenzie

“When you sit with a dream image that maybe scares you or that you avoid: When you sit with it long enough for its purpose to be revealed, it’s like, ‘Man, cool, thank you for sending me that image.’ And you can start to trust that there’s something larger inside of you that has your back. And that level of trust, that level of existential secure attachment (is what I’ve been calling it lately) is un-fuck-with-able. Nobody can take that from you. Once you have that, you’re good. All the chaos can happen around you, but you’ve got something inside of you that nobody can touch.” -Mackenzie

“These are all experiences with the numinous. The numinous wears all the shapes. It’s only our human hubris that searches for it in particular shapes. If we kind of quiet that hubris a little bit and let the self, let the numinous talk in its own language for a second, we can all be humbled to see how vast its language is and how it can find us even in the most ridiculous images.” -Ido

“When we have these experiences, when we’re given this content from our unconscious, it’s an invitation to join the family, to join the life that is living through all things. And that to me, is just really, really hopeful, and I think it’s why I’m so inspired and passionate about psychedelics, is the possibility of them to alleviate that nihilistic thought pattern that says ‘I’m alone in this world.’ When we really, really feel into what’s happening for us, it’s collective. We’re in a collective experience, constantly, all the time. And that’s really beautiful and healing.” -Mackenzie

Links

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

PT390 – Vital Psychedelic Conversations, featuring: Mackenzie Amara & Dr. Ido Cohen

Illuminating the Hidden Self: Navigating the Jungian Shadow with Psychedelics

Imagination as Revelation: The Psychedelic Experience in the Light of Jungian Psychology – An Introduction to Psychedelics and Carl Jung

Mackenzieamara.com

Theintegrationcircle.com

The Red Book, by C. G. Jung

Kannaextract.com (Use code PT10 for 10% off!)

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

September 22, 2023September 26, 2023

PT444 – A Glimpse Into the Psychedelic Neuroscience Landscape

In this special episode, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. and Manesh Girn, Ph.D., who joined David in episode 403 to discuss the launch of their new course, essentially interview each other.

As the 2nd edition of their popular course, Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified, begins on November 1, we wanted to give them a chance to highlight some of the aspects of neuroscience students can expect to learn in the course, and what so many people who are interested in psychedelics don’t fully understand: What does neuroplasticity actually entail? Can one predict if a patient is more apt to have an experience with ego dissolution? How does the amygdala relate to mood disorders? When are critical periods of greater plasticity and socialization at their most beneficial? How does neuroplasticity relate to chronic stress?

They also discuss lessons they’ve received from their own journeys; why they created the course; serotonin; psychological flexibility; body-based versions of self vs. memory-based versions; psychedelics and re-encoding memories (and the potential for false memories); how psychedelic therapy is different from standard drug treatments; psychedelics and the default mode network (is the story oversimplified?), and much more.

For more information on their course, and to sign up, click here!

Notable Quotes

“A major insight from my psychedelic journeys is just how dense and heavy thoughts and mental content can be. And we often feel the need to overanalyze and think about things and get lost in our concepts and internal dialogue as opposed to experiencing things in the moment, as they are, in a more deeper kind of intimate way – having a greater intimate relationship with our senses, with the immediacy of what’s happening. And my psychedelic experiences, whether it’s with psilocybin or 5-MeO-DMT or what have you, have allowed me to glimpse into states where that stuff is just totally removed, and I’m just immersed in the rawness of experience and just how beautifully vibrant and alive and spontaneously intelligent that is, and how superfluous a lot of our thinking really is, and it just weighs us down. I think my journeys have just allowed me to live with greater ease and hold on to my identity and my narratives much more lightly. So I see them, I acknowledge them, but I’m not totally lost in them. I don’t identify strongly with them.” -Manesh

“Perhaps what’s happening is that MDMA induces a super positive mood where you feel really socially connected, really empathogenic with your therapist or whoever’s around you, you feel so safe and supported. And so if challenging traumatic memories come up, there’s this mismatch between the emotional trace of the traumatic memory and the unique state you’re in with the MDMA on board. And so this mismatch drives the memory reconsolidation process so that your traumatic memory is amended with less fear to be more in line with your current way you’re feeling of being so safe and supported.” -Melanie

Links

Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects

Opening Critical Periods with Psychedelics, by Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. & Manesh Girn, Ph.D.(c)

Frontiersin.org: Psychedelic-induced mystical experiences: An interdisciplinary discussion and critique

PT403 – Understanding the Brain: Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified, featuring: Melanie Pincus, Ph.D. & Manesh Girn

PT258 – Manesh Girn – Psychedelics and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and Creativity

The Psychedelic Scientist YouTube

September 8, 2023September 8, 2023

PT440 – Coming Back to Stillness, Microdosing and Adaptogens, and What We Can Learn From Autism

In this episode, David interviews Dr. JoQueta Handy, Ph.D., IMD: speaker, author, educator, Natural Integrative Health Practitioner, and CEO and Chief Visionary of Brilliant Learning, Handy Wellness Center, and Brilliant Blends.

She shares childhood memories of growing up on her Grandparents’ farm, where she developed a deep appreciation for nature, staring at the stars, and the beauty in stillness, and how coming back to that stillness has been key in her life and psychedelic journeys. The conversation then shifts to all that she’s learned through her work with children on the autism spectrum: the problems of putting people into boxes; how autism affects everyone; the different ways people learn; the connection between autism and the gut microbiome; and how she has learned more from some of these children than any book could teach her – culminating in a story of discovering that a very challenged child people were ready to give up on could actually read and comprehend everything he was hearing.

She discusses her favorite adaptogens; the art of stacking adaptogens and different modalities; her multi-day coaching sessions; Internal Family Systems; quantum biofeedback; the use of supplements in microdosing; and Brilliant Blends, which sells blends of supplements designed to provide benefits as close to what psilocybin can provide (but legally) – inspired by the unique needs of autistic individuals. PT listeners can receive 10% off all purchases with code: PT10.

Notable Quotes

“If we look at Western medicine, we are masters at saving lives. We’re not so great at quality of life. And looking more toward Eastern medicine, European medicine: where body, mind and soul [is] more brought into play – healing, working on the mind, the emotional, the mind and the body for a complete healing… So that was really why I chose the path of natural integrative medicine because I did see that everything has a place. Everybody brings a talent to the table. …We, many times, need a village for healing.”

“I’ve had some wonderful mentors along the way, but being on the ground, so to speak – not just in a laboratory, formulating things – being hands-on with those children on a day-to-day basis: that was the greatest teacher of: how is this herb working? How is this adaptogen working? So when I went to formulate Brilliant Blends, I just knew it had to honor them because I was using that knowledge base. I use it on a daily basis with everyone. …Autistic children have taught us what we know from autism, and what we know from autism applies to everyone.”

“That’s the end game. That’s the bottom line in all of this work that we’re doing. That’s where the transformation and freedom is: to realize that this medicine is in all of us. Maybe we’re just using psychedelics to open that door to reveal it and show us the path how to anchor it, but this medicine is in all of us and always was. So if we can use these different pathways, these different approaches to lead us back home, then bravo.”

Links

Drjoquetahandy.com

Mybrilliantblends.com (use code PT10 to receive 10% off all purchases)

Drhandy.com

3cosevents.com

Brilliantlearningonline.com

Hemplucid.com (use code PSYCHEDELICS10 for 10% off all purchases)

August 11, 2023August 11, 2023

PT431 – The Concept of Integration and the Need for Evolving Protocols of Psychedelic Therapy

In this episode, Kyle interviews The Susan Hill Ward Endowed Professor of Psychedelics and Consciousness Research at Johns Hopkins, and renowned researcher of nearly 20 years: Matthew W. Johnson, Ph.D.

Recorded in-person at MAPS’ Psychedelic Science after running an 8-hour workshop on psychedelic therapy for addiction treatment, Johnson was still happy to sit down with PT to explore a wide range of topics: the under-researched concept of integration; how to best take advantage of optimal neuroplastic windows; why psycholytic therapy used to be more common; how our current protocols and research models are largely arbitrary; and his hopes for new, experimental, and flexible models of psychedelic therapy.

He also discusses his ongoing smoking cessation studies; the Oregon model (are we doing therapy or not?); misrepresentation in psychedelic therapy and knowing your lane; and the role of music in psychedelics: why shouldn’t people pick the music they know will give them goosebumps?

Notable Quotes

“How in the world could there be these beneficial effects that we can see in someone’s behavior (their substance use, their depression) 6 months, a year later from one, two, or three medication experiences that were time-limited? …People are changing the way they’re operating. And the more you start to do that, and that starts to become the new normal, so it’s not just ending at the psychedelic session or even in the explicit integration sessions where you talk about your psychedelic therapy or your psychedelic session; but then, if you put into practice – like actually changing the way you’re operating in the world and that becomes the new normal – I think that’s what’s happening to explain why we’re seeing these beneficial effects six months, a year later. It’s just kind of the causal nature of the therapeutic mechanisms unfolding over time in a kind of a living, organic way, because people are interfacing with reality in a different way, that can, if they’re doing it right, it can have a feed-forward effect, like, ‘Oh, this actually works. I feel better. I’m doing better in life when I do things more this way than the way I used to do them.’”

“The nice thing that’s probably going to happen once we get out of this phase, at least with, like, psilocybin and MDMA where it’s only in clinical approved research now, if they’re approved by the FDA for straight up treatment, FDA is not going to control what music you use or how you integrate and all these other things. And so there’s going to be this wave of naturalistic experimentation which is going to be really cool. And then hopefully people are safe, but hopefully there’s an integration of the communication of the art of the practice of medicine and psychology. It’s like just through that communication – like what tends to work, what tends not to work, people sharing ideas – I’m looking forward to that.”

Links

Hopkinsmedicine.org: Matthew W. Johnson, Ph.D.

Psychedelics Today: PT229 – Dr. Matthew Johnson – What is Consciousness?

Join us in the Netherlands for the Kiyumí Psilocybin Retreat & Vital Training: September 6-11, 2023. Click here to learn more and apply!

August 9, 2023August 9, 2023

Exploring the Vast Potential of Psychedelic Medicine: A Physician’s Perspective on Allopathy, Virtual Community, and Clinical Research

Neurology physician Dr. Burton Tabaac’s interest in psychedelics began almost by accident. He happened upon the topic through a 2019 presentation during his fellowship training at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine – and may not have pursued a dedicated interest in the field if he hadn’t attended.

“… In four years of medical school and four years of residency training, psychedelics were not mentioned – not even once as part of a comprehensive allopathic education,” Tabaac told Psychedelics Today.

The Hopkins lecture inspired the physician down a non-typical path for those in his profession: research on the therapeutic potential of psychedelics in treating mental health diseases. Today, he explores psychedelics beyond their traditional association with mental health. Entities inclusive of Parkinson’s disease, dementia, stroke, and traumatic brain injury are of particular intrigue with potential for psychedelics to promote healing, Tabaac shares.

Exploring Psychedelics’ Versatility

In his recently appointed role for the Mckenna Academy of Natural Philosophy, founded by Dennis McKenna, Dr. Tabaac serves as an advisor for educational pursuits and evidence-based methodology. Through this collaboration, he is dedicated to investigating the possible role of psychedelics beyond their use in the mental health realm, and is passionate about exploring whether these substances could help with functional neurological and neurodegenerative diseases.

“There are specific indications that I feel warrant additional study and funding to assess and discover,” he says. “There has already been a lot of research and literature published dedicated to psychedelics for treating depression, anxiety, addiction and PTSD; I’m very eager to partner in pushing the frontier further to investigate what else psychedelics may have the potential to address.”

In the current landscape of psychedelic research, this alliance highlights the evolving role of physicians stepping beyond traditional methods to investigate alternative solutions. The demand for more research signifies a promising future for psychedelic research, with the potential of extending the possibilities of these substances in treating various conditions.

Obstacles to Holistic Approaches

In the healthcare world, it isn’t uncommon to find that many doctors tend to favor Western medicine while overlooking holistic approaches. Doctors don’t typically embrace integrative routes, because the current medical system is guided primarily by evidence-based research, Tabaac says. Treatments typically require strong evidence of their efficacy before they are widely adopted, which doesn’t bode well for most federally scheduled psychedelics in relative nascent stages of research.

“I also think that having psychedelics as a restricted Schedule I class of drugs prohibits a lot of providers from even being able to offer these therapeutics off-label,” he says. “When you look at where the medical/legal field is heading, there’s a lot of promise with the Phase 3 trial that MAPS has presented demonstrating the potential for MDMA to treat PTSD.”

PTSD patients in the MAPS study received three doses of MDMA, supplemented with psychotherapy. The trial results yielded 50 per cent of participants no longer meeting the criteria for PTSD. One year later, without any additional MDMA doses, the number of patients no longer meeting the criteria increased to 70 per cent, “showing that there is some underlying effect on the brain that is sustainable,” Tabaac said.

The MAPS study highlights the transformative impact that psychedelics – combined with psychotherapy – can have on mental health disorders like PTSD, Tabaac says. As more research emerges, it is expected that the medical community will gradually embrace these alternative treatments and integrate them into mainstream healthcare, ultimately empowering physicians to treat patients with greater efficacy and enriching the field of allopathic medicine.

The Power of Virtual Community for Doctors

Back in December 2021, Tabaac stumbled across the Psychedelics Anonymous (PA) platform, a web3 community that shared his enthusiasm for the potential of NFTs to bridge communities of like minded individuals. PA offers a secure environment where members can connect without revealing their identities, utilizing avatars to engage in discussions about psychedelics, and exchange personal or professional experiences.

Membership in Psychedelics Anonymous brought with it additional perks, Tabaac said, offering access to educational opportunities such as a plant medicine course at Cornell and participation in the recent Psychedelic Science 2023 conference in Denver. The project has also established a podcast, The Zero Hour, where Tabaac interviews the top minds in the psychedelic space. The most valuable aspect, Tabaac says, was the connections made with fellow colleagues. He connected with psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and researchers who were curious about psychedelic medicine and established this virtual space where they could openly discuss without stigma, judgment, or fear of retribution.

“I attribute a lot of my own development and personal growth and passion for the space to the Psychedelics Anonymous project, because prior to getting involved in that community, there was trepidation over being judged by friends and by society at large, as a lot of the negative press and stigma still remains, dating back to Nixon’s War on Drugs,” he says.
Psychedelics Anonymous also catalyzed Tabaac’s passion in the field to present a TEDx talk discussing Mental Health Meets Psychedelics. In this talk listeners are challenged to question their preconceived notions and judgements as it pertains to the group of restricted therapeutics in the psychedelic class. Tabaac asks if this class of drugs can serve as a paradigm shift in the way mindfulness therapy and mental health is approached.

Balancing Passion and Clinical Practice

Dr. Tabaac recognizes the difference between his passion for advancing psychedelic medicine and his commitment to ethics. “I infrequently discuss psychedelics with my patient population, exceptions including clinical trial offerings if inclusion criteria is met. Doctors and health practitioners are constrained by the limits of their medical licensure, and must remain patient until FDA approval is achieved,” Tabaac says. “I think it’s still premature and out of my scope to offer psychedelics to my patients. My mission and my role is better served in pushing clinical research forward, commiting patient enrollment in trials, and inviting speakers who are experts in the psychedelic space to present on my podcast I incorporate teachings on psychedelics to the medical students that rotate with me as it is the only space where they have exposure to learning about these modalities. The enthusiasm and interest among the next generation of physicians is encouraging.”

The demand for alternative mental health solutions continues to increase. Organizations like the Psychedelic Medicine Association, dedicated to providing ketamine treatments and with whom Tabaac is affiliated, are addressing the needs of individuals seeking non-traditional routes. While certain prescriptions may fall beyond the scope of some physicians, adopting a holistic approach becomes crucial. With physicians like Tabaac considering various facets of a person’s well-being, such as sleep, lifestyle, nutrition, social support, mindfulness practices and physical health, individuals can benefit from more comprehensive and personalized mental health care. This avenue goes beyond medications, recognizing the broader needs of patients. It underscores the importance of tending to various dimensions of a person’s life to foster holistic well-being and empowers individuals to explore diverse modalities for emotional harmony. Tabaac emphasizes the moniker of focusing “mental health as part of whole health.”

The Future of Psychedelic Medicine

For physicians like Tabaac, exploring the uncharted waters of psychedelic medicine opens up new possibilities for patient treatment and professional development. It provides access to innovative therapies, nurtures professional growth, and enables them to explore new frontiers beyond the constraints of conventional methods. By breaking stigma, advancing the field, and advocating for holistic modalities, physicians have the opportunity to play a pivotal role in enhancing the field of mental health and allopathy, offering new hope and potential healing pathways to patients. A new era in Western medicine, where evidence-based methodologies, holistic approaches, and comprehensive care intersect, holds the potential for a transformative landscape on the healthcare horizon.

August 8, 2023August 8, 2023

PT430 – Psychedelics for Eating Disorders, Davos’ House of Psychedelics, and The Future of the Synthesis Institute

In this episode, Joe interviews Maya Albert: Co-Founder of the Psyched conference, and Director of Operations at Tabula Rasa Ventures and the Synthesis Institute.

She shares her journey of how she became involved in the psychedelic space through her mother, and her personal experience as a patient in a clinical trial on psilocybin for the treatment of anorexia – a much more common and deadly affliction than most people realize. She discusses her involvement with the various psychedelic gatherings surrounding Davos and the World Economic Forum, as well as the work she’s doing with Tabula Rasa and some of their clients seeking to expand insurance coverage to psychedelic-assisted therapy.

She discusses the Synthesis Institute’s recent struggles that shook up the psychedelic space, what they’re doing to save the company, how Retreat Guru has helped them, and the implications for the wider psychedelic movement. And she talks about much more: the legality and vetting process for training in Oregon and Colorado; truffles in the Netherlands vs. classic psilocybin; the idea of alcohol as poison and ‘Cali sober,’ and how can we all be more collaborative and not sling mud at each other?

Notable Quotes

“The limitations are really when you’ve been in therapy, you’ve seen a nutritionist for five, ten years; you have all the tools there, you know what you’re supposed to do (this can be applied to things like depression or anxiety or any other mental issue), but those neural pathways that have been connecting and forming with those negative thought patterns for decades: for people, they’re not going to undo themselves. It takes more motivation than I have ever had to break my cycles, and I really felt stuck. I don’t think I was going to ever get better than I was at the time without something like psychedelics.”

“It could set the temperature for a lot of other psychedelic organizations and movements to say, ‘This isn’t working and let me show you why. If this goes up in flames, then what else is possible?’ And the space is already greatly under-funded and financiers look at this and they’re like, ‘I’m not touching that with a ten foot pole. This is too early, or this is too risky, or X, Y, and Z.’ So that was really the scary part of the first few weeks of what this meant for the movement at large: if we can’t pull it off, then who can?”

“This whole thing has been like a great big psychedelic trip: use our learning towards being a facilitator, towards facilitating ourselves through this chaos. There has to be chaos within to give birth to a dancing star, I think is what Nietzsche said. We’ll be that dancing star.”

Links

Synthesisinstitute.com

Tabularasa.ventures

Psychedelicspotlight.com: Psychedelic Capitalism Takes a Trip to Davos

Enthea.com

Retreat.guru

Join Kyle and David on August 10th at 222 E 46th St, New York, NY, 7-10pm EST. Click here for tickets!

August 1, 2023August 1, 2023

PT428 – The Promise of MAPS’ Phase III Data, Psychedelics and Adolescents, and the Need for Honest Drug Education

In this episode, recorded on the eve of MAPS’ Psychedelic Science 2023, Kyle interviews MAPS’ Founder and President, Rick Doblin, Ph.D.

He begins with an overview of the fast-approaching (and largest ever) psychedelics conference, emphasizing its significant growth, many features, and bipartisan opening ceremony, then discusses MAPS’ soon-to-be-released confirmatory Phase III data on MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD, which should set the stage for legal MDMA and the increasing need for trained psychedelic therapists.

As the FDA is requiring studies on adolescents, he discusses this sensitive issue and questions why it’s so controversial, since teenage years are often closer to both trauma and a more malleable brain, Indigenous traditions certainly didn’t have age limits, and honest drug education – something that is absolutely necessary to fight the backlash against this quickly growing field – teaches us that it’s not the substance; it’s our relationship to it. Could not having these rites of passage be hurting us?

He also discusses the natural vs. synthetic conflict; breathwork; whether or not cannabis is truly damaging to young minds; Federal rescheduling vs. state rescheduling; why it’s controversial to give therapists MDMA in training; Gul Dolen’s work with reopening critical periods; psychedelics in couples therapy; and much more.

Notable Quotes

“We have been just astonished at the fact that we now have 11,500 people registered for this conference, and we, in our wildest dreams, thought maybe we’d get up to 10,000. But even that was just like a wild dream. The largest psychedelic conference that’s ever happened was our Psychedelic Science in 2017. …Now we’re almost four times as big. It’s a whole different cultural moment, and what I didn’t fully anticipate is how this conference would be like a magnet for the entire community.”

“I think the proper training of psychedelic therapists is different than the proper training of psychiatrists to administer any kind of pharmacological drugs, because for psychiatry; when they give SSRIs or they give other kinds of medications or they give electroconvulsive therapy or whatever: those are meant to be the treatments. In our case, the treatment is really the human relationship – the therapy – and then the psychedelics make the therapy more effective. And so it makes the most sense for people that are interested in doing psychedelic therapy, for them to have the experience of the psychedelics themselves. As we start to scale, there’s a lot of experienced trauma therapists, but they might not be experienced psychonauts, and it’s hard to describe what a drug does.”

“When you think about these rites of passage, that when you’re an adolescent or early in college, those are the ripe times for people to sort of explore: who are they? Where do they fit into the larger world? I think in many Indigenous cultures, that’s the time of initiation for a lot of people, so I think we have hurt ourselves tremendously. Now, you hear this always about marijuana: ‘kids [have] developing brains and they shouldn’t ever try marijuana.’ And I think the thing is that overuse is a problem. Daily use before you go to school: all that is a problem. It makes it difficult to learn, things like that. But we tend to make sweeping statements like ‘never use.’”

Links

Maps.org

Psychedelicscience.org

Psychedelics Today: PT327 – Rick Doblin, Ph.D. – Confronting Abuse in Clinical Trials and the Future of Psychedelic Medicine

Numinus.com

Numindhealth.com

Drugpolicy.org

Maps.org: MAPS Receives $5 Million Grant from the Steven & Alexandra Cohen Foundation

July 25, 2023July 25, 2023

PT426 – Making the Impossible Possible: Flow Hacking and Peak Performance Aging

In this episode, Joe interviews one of the world’s leading experts on human performance: New York Times bestselling author and Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective, Steven Kotler.

Kotler’s work explores the neurobiology of peak human performance, flow states, and aging, and the concept of getting our biology to work for us rather than against us in our later years, by using the parts of our brains that expand in our 50s, combined with neuroplasticity, learning by play, and the biggest factor: working toward a very difficult – but not impossible – task. His 30-year exploration of the neurobiology behind people accomplishing ‘impossible’ feats led him to test his theories by teaching himself to park ski at 53 with resounding success, then using his protocol with people up to 70 years old the next season. The story is told in his newest book about challenging tired concepts of aging, Gnar Country.

He discusses the power of flow states and how much flow actually amplifies productivity, motivation, wisdom, empathy, and more; why dynamic motion is a key activity for greater longevity and why skiing and similar action sports are some of the best examples; why dynamic activity in novel environments is even better; why changing one’s mindset may be the biggest factor toward change; why corporations are looking at flow training and where these concepts could go in the future; and of course, how this all relates to psychedelics.

Notable Quotes

“If you study flow science, it turns out that flow is really great at helping us go from zero up to Superman. It’s also really great at helping us go from seriously subpar, ‘I’m completely broken and sick’ back to normal. And it turns out this combination is phenomenal in the second half of our lives. And flow sits at the heart of peak performance aging.”

“The only way I can go [from] A to B with this is to take everything I know about flow science and peak performance and see if I can use it to accomplish this so-called impossible task. So that’s what the book is. And yes, I was obviously very successful. I went 0 to 60, as I said, in a single season. It was the fastest I’ve ever actually learned anything.”

“The place you’ve got to begin is mindset. The mind-body connection gets tighter and tighter and tighter over time, and it plays a significant role in aging and peak performance aging. Mindset is the greatest example. …A positive mindset towards aging – ‘I am thrilled with the second half of my life; my best days are ahead of me’ – translates to an additional eight years of healthy longevity. It’s wild. …You could be morbidly obese and have a shitty mindset towards aging. Change your mindset, you’ll live longer. Don’t lose weight. Change your mindset. It’s more important. In fact, changing your mindset is more important than quitting smoking for healthy longevity.”

Links

Stevenkotler.com

YouTube: Steven Kotler

Flowresearchcollective.com

Gnarcountry.com

When the Impossible Happens: Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities, by Stanislav Grof

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn

Getmoreflow.com

The Gnar Country experiment videos

YouTube: Danny Way vs The Great Wall 10 Years Later

July 21, 2023July 24, 2023

PT425 – The Transformative Potential of Psychedelics, Community, and Live Music

In this episode, David interviews Dr. Gabrielle Lehigh: Co-Founder and Managing Director of Psychedelic Grad, a web-based community serving as an educational and career hub for up-and-coming psychedelic professionals; and the host of the related podcast, “Curious to Serious,” where she speaks with students and professionals about the path they took to land in the psychedelic field.

Lehigh recently earned her Ph.D. with research on something not many are looking at: the stories behind powerful and transformative psychedelic experiences specifically at music events, based on 38 interviews and over 500 surveys mostly collected at day-long festivals in the southern United States. While the goal was largely data collection in support of the clear potential for therapeutic benefit in using psychedelics in recreational settings (as many of us who have experienced this can attest), she was surprised to learn how many people still blindly trust dealers; how much festival security can affect safety; how the community often makes more of a difference than the music itself; and how many parallels exist between colder clinical models of psychedelic-assisted therapy and the completely open festival experience.

She discusses how she found her way from environmental justice to psychedelics; what people are most looking for on Psychedelic Grad; why she chose to use the word “transformative” in her research; what music she has had her best experiences with; why psychonauts shouldn’t forget about Pink Floyd; and much more.

Notable Quotes

“I went to my advisor at the time and I said, ‘Listen, I want to change the direction that I’ve been going in.’ I’m like, ‘I either want to study the anthropology of space colonization,’ (which is so out there) ‘or I want to study psychedelics.’ And my advisor was like, ‘Neither one of those is anywhere near what you were studying before. What happened?’”

“I can be somewhat frustrated sometimes when, from the clinical setting, there’s this idea that recreational use has no benefit for people, because I’ve seen it from other people’s experiences, [and] there have been experiences that I’ve had in those types of recreational settings that have been incredibly beneficial for me. Even when I started taking psychedelics, even though I was taking them at home; it wasn’t clinical, it wasn’t medical, it wasn’t necessarily therapeutic as defined by ‘therapeutic,’ so it was still considered recreational. So I was just really frustrated in seeing repeated notions that recreational isn’t necessarily beneficial. And so I set out to be like: well, if it’s not beneficial, then maybe we should go check it out and see what’s really going on.”

“When we think about the clinical setting, when we look at the MAPS protocol and everything, music is a part of it. But in the interviews, people talked about the value of live music. There’s something special and something unique about music being created in the moment, and you, as a spectator, are part of the creation of that music, and there’s something really special going on there. …It’s the music, and it’s not just the music as the music, it’s this live production of the music. There’s some type of magic in it.”

Links

Psychedelicgrad.com

Curious to Serious podcast

Curious to Serious podcast: David Drapkin – Working In The Psychedelic Space

“Transformative Psychedelic Experiences at Music Events: Using Subjective Experience to Explore Chemosocial Assemblages of Culture,” by Gabrielle R. Lehigh (her full dissertation)

Prohibited Practice: Drug Use, Harm Reduction and Benefit Enhancement in Toronto Rave Culture, by Hilary Agro

Sciencedirect.com: The pleasure in context,” by Cameron Duff

Israeli Harm Reduction – A Real World Trip From Raves to Parliament (A Psychedelics Today webinar)

Bassdrive.com

YouTube: Grateful Dead – Terrapin Station (Anaheim, CA 7/26/87)

Spotify: Pink Floyd – The Dark Side of the Moon

Spotify: “Top 40 Hits from Gabby’s Trips” (the playlist she discussed at the end of the episode)

July 7, 2023July 24, 2023

PT421 – The Impact of the Therapeutic Alliance on the Psychedelic Experience

In this episode, David interviews Dr. Roberta Murphy: training medical psychotherapist and member of the Imperial Centre for Psychedelic Research.

This is a rare impromptu podcast, recorded about a half hour after David heard Murphy speaking on a panel at UK’s Breaking Convention conference. He asked her if she wanted to be on the podcast sometime, and before they knew it, they were recording. Fastest turnaround ever?

She discusses her past research and what she’s doing at Imperial College; her work on a psilocybin for depression trial; her hopes for psychedelics treating people with Parkinson’s; and her recent co-written paper on the ARC Framework (Access, Reciprocity and Conduct), where she will be focusing strongly on the Conduct aspect through her work at Imperial.

And she talks about her other paper exploring the impact of one of the more important aspects of therapy: the therapeutic alliance on the psychedelic experience. How does the treatment dynamic between the therapist and the client impact the outcome (and course) of the therapy, and what determines whether it’s neutral, negative, positive, or very positive?

Notable Quotes

“It makes sense in a way that you might need to kind of work through those mistrust feelings before you get into a deeper layer, and then in the next session they were able to (I think because they felt a bit safer with us) let go and have a bit more of a typical psychedelic experience where they visualized things and saw things. …I think that that can often then be mistaken as resistance or like nothing’s happening. But there’s always something happening, it’s just sometimes it’s a little bit more nuanced or a little bit harder to pick up and work with. But there’s always something happening. You just might have to zoom in a bit to see it.”

“There’s a difference between a challenging experience that occurs, is processed, and worked through vs. a challenging experience where people kind of never really work with it, it doesn’t get processed, and they get quite stuck in it. …I do think that if you have a good container of a therapeutic relationship, it can help you to work through and process, and I think if you don’t have that, it’s more likely that you’ll end up with something a bit stuck, because I think in order to process, you often need to go in and go deep. And if you don’t feel safe to do that, you’re just going to kind of float on the edge, in a way, and never quite get through.”

Links

Researchgate.net: Therapeutic Alliance and Rapport Modulate Responses to Psilocybin Assisted Therapy for Depression

Researchgate.net: ARC: a framework for access, reciprocity and conduct in psychedelic therapies

June 27, 2023June 27, 2023

PT419 – Ketamine-Assisted Therapy for Severe Alcohol Use Disorder

In this episode, David interviews Professor Celia Morgan, Ph.D., who holds the Chair of Psychopharmacology and co-leads the Transdisciplinary Psychedelics Group at The University of Exeter.

This was recorded on the dawn of UK’s Breaking Convention conference, where Morgan was speaking about the therapeutic potential of ketamine as well as the danger of people developing a dependence on it. She touches on that topic, but largely discusses her current Phase III Trial for ketamine-assisted therapy for the treatment of severe alcohol use disorder (also called the KARE model (Ketamine for reduction of Alcohol Relapse)), a collaboration with Awakn Life Sciences.

She discusses her other research: studies on mindfulness intervention before and after ketamine, epigenetic changes after ayahuasca use, the antidepressant qualities of ayahuasca, and CBD for cannabis dependence. And she talks about the necessary balance for making treatments amazing but affordable; how connecting with nature during integration is key; how the drug is just a tool, yet we focus on it too much; and how we need studies on how different therapies work with different substances.

Notable Quotes

“People always focus on the drugs, but it’s more about the people, and as you say, their relationship – what you’re getting from that experience. The drugs themselves are just tools. You can hit someone over the head with a spade, but you can dig an amazing garden. I see the drugs as the spade, basically, but obviously a really unusual spade.”

“Taking a step back from your thoughts and not being over-engaged with everything you’re doing; the ketamine really helps to facilitate that, because they can see how that works. Mindfulness can be really tricky. Mindfulness practice is hard work. So I see this as a big step that makes it work better in that first bit, especially when people are struggling. …Ketamine, to my mind, gives this kind of boost and insight that can help engage them with the therapy going forward.”

Links

A Vital Journey: Transpersonal Breathwork Retreat in PA, July 28

Check out the Lumenate app, and download it through the App store here!

University of Exeter department of Psychology: Professor Celia Morgan

Ketamine for reduction of Alcoholic Relapse (KARE)

Awaknlifesciences.com: Awakn Life Sciences Signs Collaboration Agreement With University of Exeter for Upcoming Phase III Trial

Breakingconvention.co.uk

Nice.org.uk: Nasal spray medicine for treatment-resistant depression not recommended by NICE

The NHS Talking Therapies for anxiety and depression program (formerly known as Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT))

Nushama.com

Awaknlifesciences.com: Awakn Life Sciences Signs MOU with NHS (Devon Partnership NHS Trust) and University of Exeter with a View of Increasing Access to Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy in the UK

Frontiersin.org: Ceremonial Ayahuasca in Amazonian Retreats—Mental Health and Epigenetic Outcomes From a Six-Month Naturalistic Study

Journals.sagepub.com: Antidepressive, anxiolytic, and antiaddictive effects of ayahuasca, psilocybin and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD): a systematic review of clinical trials published in the last 25 years

Thelancet.com: Cannabidiol for the treatment of cannabis use disorder: a phase 2a, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomised, adaptive Bayesian trial

June 23, 2023June 27, 2023

PT418 – Psychedelic Morning Show #2 with Joe Moore and Anne Philippi

In the second episode of our special, two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show, Joe Moore and Anne Philippi are live once again bright and early from Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen to this podcast as they interview four guests working on the front lines of psychedelic research, law, and the treatment of chronic pain.

Guests for this episode include:

Tommaso Barba – PhD candidate at Centre for Psychedelic Research, Imperial College London
Allison Hoots – Attorney at Hoots Law Practice and advocate; President of Sacred Plant Alliance
Bob Wold – Founder & President, Clusterbusters
Court Wing – Founder, REMAP Therapeutics

Links

Imperial College London Centre for Psychedelic Research

Sacred Plant Alliance

Hoots Law Practice

Clusterbusters

PT404 – Clusterbusters: The Horrors of Cluster Headaches and the Miracle of Psilocybin

Court Wing – Pain and Its Relationship to the Mind

REMAP Therapeutics

Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain, by Court Wing

Why Did Psychedelics Relieve My Chronic Pain? by Court Wing

June 22, 2023June 27, 2023

PT417 – Psychedelic Morning Show #1 with Joe Moore and Anne Philippi

Psychedelics Today is reporting live this week from the industry event of the year, Psychedelic Science 2023 in Denver. Listen in to this podcast as our co-founder, Joe Moore, and New Health Club founder Anne Philippi hit the conference floor bright and early in the first episode of a special two-part series, the Psychedelic Morning Show.

In this limited series, Joe and Anne chat in real-time with guests working in all corners of the psychedelic ecosystem, from advocacy, law and finance, to research and therapy.

Guests for this episode include:

Dr. Julie Holland – Psychiatrist, psychedelic researcher, author and medical advisor for MAPS
Daniel Goldberg – Co-Founder and Principal at Bridge Investments & Palo Santo
Hadas Alterman – Director of Government Affairs | American Psychedelic Practitioners Association
Melissa Lavasani – Founder and Chief Executive Officer at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, Founder and President of Psychedelic Medicine PAC
Tracey Tee – Founder of Moms on Mushrooms

Links

DrHolland.com

MAPS

Working Weekends at a Psych ER – Interview with Julie Holland on NPR

Bridge Investments

Palo Santo

American Psychedelic Practitioners Association

PT249 – Hadas Alterman, Serena Wu, and Adriana Kertzer of Plant Medicine Law Group

Psychedelic Medicine Coalition

Psychedelic Medicine PAC

PT338 – Melissa Lavasani – The Power of Storytelling, The Preservation of Peyote, and “How to Change Your Mind”

PT405 – The Psychedelic Medicine PAC: The Push for Federal Funding and Politicians Who Will Fight for Us

Moms on Mushrooms

PT396 – Moms on Mushrooms: Motherhood and Psychedelics Inside a Broken Culture

June 20, 2023June 20, 2023

PT416 – A New Chapter for Johns Hopkins Psychedelic & Consciousness Research

In this episode, David interviews Frederick Barrett, Ph.D.: cognitive neuroscientist, Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and now, Director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research.

With today’s news, Barrett officially takes over for the legendary Roland Griffiths, who has been in the role since the Center’s launch in 2019, and who will continue on as a member of the leadership team while dealing with the Stage 4 cancer diagnosis he has been remarkably candid about in recent interviews.

Dr. Barrett has been conducting research at Johns Hopkins for a decade, authoring or co-authoring some of the first studies on psilocybin’s enduring effects, and receiving the first federally funded human psychedelic research grant from the NIH since the 70s. He discusses the work and importance of Roland Griffiths; the history of the Center and current research he’s most excited about; the mystery of consciousness; and the power and sacredness of music: how we all use music to regulate our emotions, and how he wants to explore the brain mechanisms behind that connection.

Notable Quotes

“I came here in 2013, kind of starry-eyed and still a little green behind the ears, and I thought music is a great tool to study the mind, but psychedelic drugs must be such a more powerful tool to study the mind and the brain, and essentially that’s what’s driven me since. I see psychedelics, music, brain imaging, cognitive testing, qualitative interviews, questionnaires: all these things are all different types of tools in the kitchen of trying to study the mind. And that’s what motivates me; is really just trying to use whatever tools we have access to to understand this complex experience that we have as humans.”

“Roland has been one of the most influential and important mentors of my life, and he has mentored each of the faculty within the Psychedelic Research Center. …But his impact on the psychedelic world, I think, can’t be understated. He’s just a remarkable man. He is so precise and careful and piercing with his thinking, but yet so clear in being able to articulate complex ideas and really the most interesting and important nuggets of a finding. …I think that’s one of the reasons that he’s been a leading figure in psychedelic research, and I think those are some of the reasons that he was able to pull this off to begin with.”

“If you think of all of the variables that you can try to push around to manipulate set and setting, it’s not just a couple dials; it’s like a church organ. It’s like a concert organ, and I think that music is one of the biggest keys that we can press on, so I’m going to start pressing on it.”

Links

Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research

Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Researcher Names New Director

Hopkinspsychedelic.org: Frederick S. Barrett, Ph.D.

Hopkinsmedicine.org: Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance

Sagepub: Psilocybin produces substantial and sustained decreases in depression and anxiety in patients with life-threatening cancer: A randomized double-blind trial

Hopkinsmedicine.org: Hallucinogenic Drug Psilocybin Eases Existential Anxiety in People With Life-Threatening Cancer

Hopkinsmedicine.org: ‘Magic Mushrooms’ Help Longtime Smokers Quit

Researchgate.net: Psilocybin in long-term meditators: Effects on default mode network functional connectivity and retrospective ratings of qualitative experience

Hopkinspsychedelic.org: Albert Garcia-Romeu, Ph.D.

Hopkinspsychedelic.org: Sandeep Nayak, MD

Hopkinspsychedelic.org: David Yaden, Ph.D.

Researchgate.net: Psychedelics and music: neuroscience and
therapeutic implications

Spotify: Slow Dancing Society

Spotify: Hatebreed

Spotify: Old Crow Medicine Show

Spotify: Old Crow Medicine Show: “Wagon Wheel”

Spotify: Béla Fleck and the Flecktones

Spotify: Nickel Creek

Spotify: Nickel Creek: “Rest of My Life”

May 30, 2023May 30, 2023

PT412 – Psychedelics and Virtual Reality: Where Novel Experience, Technology, and Altered States of Consciousness Meet

In this episode, Joe interviews the Co-Founders of Enosis Therapeutics: researcher and scientist, Agnieszka Sekula; and psychiatrist, clinical advisor to the Australian Psychedelic Society, and leading Australian advocate for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, Dr. Prash P.

Enosis Therapeutics is a medtech startup that began with the question: how can we use VR – with or without psychedelics – to improve mental health outcomes? They feel that the biggest problem with powerful psychedelic experiences is that, once you’re back in reality, it’s oddly difficult to remember the insights and new ideas that were so clear during the experience, and even harder to make connections that lead to concrete change. They believe that the immersive nature of VR and the novelty of unique VR environments creates a sense of presence that can’t be recreated otherwise – a liminal, in-between state that’s just different enough to allow the patient to feel like they’re back in that non-ordinary state, and therefore more able to anchor their experience and begin to find connections and more clearly understand newfound insights.

This all happens by the user essentially creating nonlinear, abstract, multi-sensory VR paintings while describing what they remembered; allowing them to revisit these worlds later, bring in therapists (or anyone else) to work inside these environments, and hear their own voice describing what happened, thereby creating a mental map that can be worked with in completely unique ways.

They talk about the conflict between new technologies and traditionalists; the problems with moving away from psychoanalysis and not treating psychotherapy as a process; how VR could improve the efficacy of therapy (and improve therapists’ lives); how it could replace models of repeated dosage; how VR could generate analytics to actually quantify success in mental health treatment; and how (whether psychedelics are used or not) culture needs to bring the psychedelic way of thinking to mental health.

Notable Quotes

“Imagine that you build out that network, that you make it physically visible and tangible, and you can actually have someone that comes into that space and visits that network. So you can share your mental model with anyone that you want: it can be a therapist, it can be a guide, it can be a shaman, it can be a well-being specialist, it can be your partner, it can be your parent, it can be your child. It can be anyone that you wish had a better understanding of you, but they don’t. It’s hard to understand ourselves, [much less] understand each other based on those linear narratives. But if we actually see how people connect things [and] how they see those links, I feel like we have a much better chance to actually connect to each other and have a better understanding of consciousness.” -Agnieszka

“So much of the focus in psychedelic therapy has been on the dosing session, whereas a lot of us would like to think that it really should be on the psychotherapy, and the psychedelic is purely that stimulus that ignites the insights which you then take through psychotherapy. If that stimulus can be the stimulus which ignites a process of psychotherapy, and therefore the power of psychotherapy to produce change, and in that way, brings psychotherapy further to the forefront of mental health treatment (in a way, it’s completely disappeared and been replaced by biological methods), then I think we have won – just by that.” -Prash

“We can induce a similar psycho-emotional state with the use of VR during the integration sessions to help patients remember, at their psychological and at an emotional level, what the experience has been like. …A lot of studies (especially earlier studies) would report that within the first two weeks after the psychedelic experience [is] the most potent time for integration because patients are still in that emotional state that was evoked with psychedelics. So maintaining that for longer by repeat application of VR might give us more access to those emotions, and might enable patients to process things a little bit more deeply.” -Agnieszka

Links

Enosistherapeutics.com

Frontiersin.org: Virtual Reality as a Moderator of Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy

Trans4mind.com: COEX Systems

Goodreads.com: Mozart’s “The music is not in the notes” quote

Ovid-clinics.com

Mind-foundation.org

Insight-conference.eu

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

Psychedelics Today: PT321 – Lyle Maxson – Virtual Reality, Biofeedback, and Digital Therapeutics: The Future of Mental Health

May 26, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – New LSD Research and The Challenges Facing a Rapidly Growing Psychedelic Guide Industry

In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Kyle and David meet up to talk news, but end up mostly having a discussion about the numerous challenges facing the rapidly growing industry of psychedelic therapists, guides, and facilitators.

That discussion comes from the article, “Psychedelic workers of the world, unite!”, which breaks down the shortcomings and risks of an industry many are flocking to without realizing what they’ll likely have to deal with: unprecedented legal and financial risks, burnout, misalignment with management, transference and countertransference, and what happens when one finds themselves in the middle of a genuine emergency? While these issues could be found in any industry, a big reason why they seem so prevalent and dangerous in the psychedelic world is our lack of elders and passed-down experience – and the faster this all grows, the more we need that guidance.

And for news, they talk about Ohio State making history as the first U.S. University to receive a license to grow psilocybin mushrooms; a new study showing that LSD enhanced learning, exploratory thinking, and sensitivity to feedback; and the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) funding $1.5 million to research the efficacy of psychedelics for substance use disorder – which spurs a conversation about research, funding, and the idea that maybe we’re spending too much time and money on neuroscience.

Links

(bolded links are the discussed articles)

Navigating Psychedelics For Clinicians and Therapists – Live Sessions (the next round launches in July)

Ecstaticintegration.org: Psychedelic workers of the world, unite!

Theguardian.com: Alternative reality: two kambo deaths spark soul-searching in Australia’s counter-culture capital

Thelantern.com: Ohio State Becomes First American University to be Granted DEA License for Psychedelic Mushroom Growth

Arizonaphysician.com: Challenging Medicine’s Status Quo: Sue Sisley, MD

Thedebrief.org: New Research Reveals LSD’s Mind-Altering Power to Enhance Learning and Exploratory Thinking

Psychedelics Today: PT245 – Robin Carhart-Harris – Psychedelics, Entropy, and Plasticity

Neurosciencenews.com: How Neurons That Wire Together Fire Together

Marijuanamoment.net: Federal Agency Announces $1.5 Million In Funding For Research On Psychedelics To Treat Drug Addiction

Mindmatters.ai: Why Pioneer Neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield Said the Mind is More Than the Brain

Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transcendence in Psychotherapy, by Stanislav Grof

May 16, 2023

PT410 – Manufacturing MDMA and Why Creating MDMA Analogs Is So Important

In this episode, Joe interviews Nick Kadysh: Founder and CEO of PharmAla Biotech and member of the board of directors for The Canadian Psychedelic Businesses Association.

PharmAla Biotech is a Toronto-based Life Sciences company with two focuses: contracting with manufacturers to provide researchers with GMP MDMA (created under Good Manufacturing Practice regulations), and creating and researching novel analogs of MDMA. And just today, they announced that Health Canada has authorized them (and their distribution partner, Shaman Pharma) to supply their LaNeo™ MDMA for the treatment of a patient under Canada’s Special Access Program – the first time this has happened in Canada.

He discusses the creation of PharmAla and why their model changed from primarily researching analogs to manufacturing; why they’re operating out of Canada and using manufacturers instead of running the lab themselves; the excitement around Australia’s recent about-face on MDMA and psilocybin-assisted therapy; the bureaucracy of U.S. drug policy and how much a broken supply chain affects the whole industry; bad IP and companies filing rapid fire patents; why creating new analogs of MDMA is so important; and why the psychedelic space needs to bring culture along with us.

He also talks about Spravato, cannabis and risks of cancer, THC nasal sprays, and research he’s most excited about: that MDMA seems to alleviate dyskinesia caused from Parkinson’s disease, and that MDMA could improve social anxiety in people with autism. He’s aiming to run a clinical trial and believes they have developed a safe MDMA analog that the autistic community will respond to very well.

Notable Quotes

“I don’t want to give the impression that we think that MDMA is unsafe. In the case of PTSD-assisted psychotherapy the way that it’s being presented by MAPS, I think it’s remarkably safe. But, you know, better is still possible.”

“If you told me that you have a brand new drug that was developed in a lab that nobody has ever seen or tried or tested before, and let’s call it drug A. And then you have drug B, which is derived from a mushroom, that people have been consuming regularly for the past 5,000 years and no one’s died. And you’re asking me which one is safer? It’s the mushroom, man. It’s not even a question.”

“We owe it to ourselves in this industry to take the population along for the ride. This is why I think safety is so important, because if you’re working on safety, people like that. People trust that. That’s what happened last time: there was the counterculture and the culture, and the culture won, and we’re still paying for it today. So let’s bring the culture along.”

Links

Pharmala.ca

News.bbc.co.uk: Ecstasy ‘not worse than riding’

Revivethera.com

Tga.gov.au: Change to classification of psilocybin and MDMA to enable prescribing by authorised psychiatrists

Psychedelics Today: Canada’s SAP Expansion Signals a Step Forward for Psychedelics

The Canadian Psychedelic Businesses Association

Uams.edu: William E. Fantegrossi, Ph.D.

YouTube: Researchers look at Ecstacy to ease Parkinsons Agony

Maps.org: MDMA-Assisted Therapy Shows Promise for Reducing Social Anxiety in Autistic Adults, New Study Shows

Psychedelics Today: Can Psychedelics Provide Relief for Autistic Individuals?

Autisticpsychedelic.com

Psychedelics Today: PT233 – JR Rahn of MindMed – LSD, ADHD, and Decriminalization

Pharmaphorum.com: J&J builds case for antidepressant Spravato with head-to-head trial

National Library of Medicine: The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids: The Current State of Evidence and Recommendations for Research.

Feather.com: THC and CBD Rapid Sprays

Thecse.com: Pharmala Biotech Holdings Inc.

April 27, 2023May 3, 2023

The Psychedelic Mind: How Neuroscience Can Help You Navigate Your Inner Landscape

Psychedelics are a fascinating class of compounds that have potent effects on our consciousness. After a multi-decade hiatus, scientific research on psychedelics has now resumed with full force. One field that has rapidly developed in recent years is psychedelic neuroscience, which applies the cutting-edge frameworks and tools of modern neuroscience to understand how psychedelics affect the brain and nervous system to elicit their profound effects. The latest findings from this breakthrough field have increasingly spilled into popular culture and are often profiled in the media – it’s now commonplace to hear terms like ‘default mode network’ and ‘neuroplasticity’ casually thrown around when discussing psychedelics and their effects.

However, much of the research is quite technical, and typical media treatments are often either highly simplistic and watered-down, or plainly inaccurate and sensationalistic. Most people just don’t have the necessary background to properly understand and communicate findings beyond repeatable buzzwords and trickle-down narratives.

It’s easy to wonder: what’s the practical relevance of psychedelic neuroscience for psychotherapy or for individuals navigating their own psychedelic experiences?

Don’t Worry – It’s Only Temporary

Understanding the science of psychedelics can be really helpful for therapists and clinicians preparing their clients for psychedelic experiences, and helping clients conceptualize and understand their experiences afterward. Psychedelic experiences can sometimes be quite overwhelming and hard to make sense of. It can be challenging to experience the profound alterations of consciousness they can elicit, which span from complex dream-like images and vivid memory recall, to ego-dissolving mystical-type effects, to perceptual distortions and synesthesia.

However, neuroimaging studies increasingly reveal what is unfolding in the brain during a psychedelic experience, and how these changes might map onto aspects of the subjective experience. Serotonergic psychedelics (like LSD, psilocybin and mescaline) disintegrate typically observed networks, including the default mode network, which is superseded by a more globally interconnected brain and more complex (or ‘entropic’) brain dynamics. In this globally interconnected state, there is a temporary increase in the connectivity and communication between different regions of the brain that normally don’t communicate much with each other. It’s like different cliques at a high school party spontaneously starting to intermingle with each other and party as a unified whole.

By reminding and reassuring clients that the intense effects they are experiencing are directly related to temporary changes in brain activity, clients may be less concerned that they are “gone without return” or that there is something inherently “wrong” or “bad” about their experience. It can also provide a useful model or framework to ground and interpret what emerges during their journey. They can rest assured that no matter how radical and reality-shattering their psychedelic experience is, it’s being underpinned by temporary changes in how brain regions are communicating and interacting over time.

Predicting the Unpredictable

Research has found that an individual’s psychological traits and brain characteristics can help predict the nature of their psychedelic experience, as well as the likelihood that they might experience long-lasting therapeutic benefits. The principles of ‘set and setting’ are deeply ingrained in psychedelic therapies, and signify the integral role that context plays in determining therapeutic outcomes. ‘Set’ concerns one’s mental and emotional state immediately before the psychedelic experience, encompassing such facets as personality and mood. Meanwhile, ‘setting’ pertains to the physical, social, and cultural milieu in which the psychedelic is taken. Given that traits and moods have been shown to correspond with differences in brain function, it is likely that brain structure and function may prove effective in predicting subjective effects and treatment response. This ‘precision medicine’ approach – using brain markers to forecast how individuals will respond to a given drug – has been applied to antidepressants and ADHD medications, providing a precedent for such a strategy in the realm of psychedelic therapy.

A recent study conducted by Enzo Tagliazucchi and colleagues illustrates this point. Neuroscientists have found that certain brain waves, called theta waves, may affect how people experience psychedelic drugs like DMT, as theta waves are associated with mind-wandering. Tagliazucchi and colleagues conducted electroencephalogram (EEG) recordings of brain electrical activity and discovered that people who had high levels of theta waves before taking DMT had less intense feelings of unity and transcendence during their psychedelic experience, showing that greater theta waves likely reflect a brain state that is not conducive to being immersed in a psychedelic experience. They suggest that measuring theta waves with EEG before taking DMT could help predict how likely someone is to have a mystical-type experience.

Their findings also appear to suggest that priming subjects to reduce theta power before taking a serotonergic psychedelic may help increase the depth of their mystical experience. For example, an individual could reduce theta with neurofeedback training, in which feedback from an EEG headset would allow them to modulate their brain activity to achieve a desired brain and psychological state. Although further research is required before any definitive conclusions can be drawn, emerging research like this suggests that capturing information about brain states – beyond what can be subjectively reported – may prove to be a valuable tool in predicting an individual’s psychological readiness for a psychedelic experience.

The Nuances of Psychedelically Boosted Neuroplasticity

The proliferation of interest in serotonergic psychedelics, MDMA, and ketamine is in no small part due to their remarkable ability to act as ‘psychoplastogens’ – compounds that enhance neuroplasticity in the brain. Neuroplasticity refers to the ways in which neurons in the brain change their connections with each other or create new ones, which is critical for the brain’s ability to learn, adapt to new experiences, and recover from injury. Psychedelics’ ability to enhance neuroplasticity has frequently been highlighted as central in eliciting therapeutic effects across a range of mood disorders and stress-related conditions such as depression, anxiety, and PTSD, which makes sense because impaired neuroplasticity has been reported for all of these disorders.

Research in rodents has suggested that, generally, for most psychedelics, the period between six and 72 hours post-psychedelic experience is when neuroplasticity is at its highest.

However, changes may last for much longer. For instance, LSD has been shown to promote the expression of neuroplasticity-related genes in rodents even one month after treatment had ceased. More and more research is being conducted on these effects, but there is clear practical relevance for clinicians, therapists, and everyday people. Understanding the nuances of psychedelically boosted neuroplasticity – including how long the effects last and where in the brain they occur for a given substance – is critical for designing optimal integration practices.

An in-depth understanding of psychedelic neuroscience can serve as a valuable tool for therapists and individuals seeking to navigate the intricate and potentially transformative realm of psychedelics. Familiarity with scientific research can empower practitioners to tailor their approach to preparation, the acute experience itself, and integration, thus optimizing therapeutic outcomes.

What’s more, the field of psychedelic neuroscience is profoundly intriguing and sometimes referred to as the “quantum mechanics” of neuroscience – neuroscientists are exploring the frontiers of consciousness with a cutting-edge discipline, and unearthing fascinating gems along the way. For example, did you know that psychedelics can enhance the firing rate of excitatory neurons in rodents’ prefrontal cortex by an astounding 481% over baseline, significantly altering communication throughout brain networks? Did you know that research is uncovering that the brain effects of psychedelics might also be tightly linked to our immune system and microbiome, with relevance to mental health? Or that both MDMA and LSD increase oxytocin levels, which plays a role in social bonding?

These and other fascinating discoveries will be covered in our upcoming eight-week course, “Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects.” This course was designed to be accessible to clinicians, therapists, and curious everyday people, making students well-versed in this emerging field, giving them the ability to understand new findings, put them into practice, and be informed participants in ongoing discussions.

Class begins May 17. Learn more here:

April 14, 2023April 14, 2023

PT405 – The Psychedelic Medicine PAC: The Push for Federal Funding and Politicians Who Will Fight for Us

In this episode, Joe interviews Melissa Lavasani: CEO of Washington, DC-based Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, and now, President of the brand new Psychedelic Medicine PAC.

She discusses her path to psychedelics, how she ended up running the Initiative 81 campaign (the Entheogenic Plant and Fungus Policy Act of 2020), and how she came to realize that decriminalization efforts can’t be the only option we go for – that, like it or not, we live in a system where politics and money are major factors behind any systematic change, and if we want to make any headway, we have to play the game. The Psychedelic Medicine PAC (Political Action Committee) was created to open up federal funding for psychedelic research, as nearly all research today (of which there still isn’t enough) is being funded by private companies. They will use donations to support politicians who are on our side and can advance psychedelic progress, who will push for federal funding to get the new and necessary data people who aren’t bought in yet need to see.

They talk about speaking with people from the other side of the aisle at a recent education campaign in DC; how federal funding is neutral money; what she learned from DC’s deprioritization of cannabis policing; how personal stories and one-on-one human connection can change minds better than traditional confrontational activism; and the need to get ahead of the inevitable wave of big pharma propaganda they’ll bring when they officially step up to the table. She believes the path to helping the most people is advancing science and data through federal funding, and that begins with education and getting more politicians on our side. If you agree, follow them for details about their upcoming event in May, visit their table at Psychedelic Science this June (use PT15 for 15% off tickets), and donate to the PAC or the coalition.

Also, as a bonus, this episode begins with a mini version of Psychedelics Weekly. Joe and Kyle didn’t have enough time to record a full episode, but still wanted to check in and review a few notable stories and highlight our recent Vital graduation ceremony. See you next week!

Notable Quotes

“I dipped my toes with the microdosing [and] I found immediate effects of that. I engaged with my children for the first time in many years, and with my son for, really, the first time since he was born. So that was a really mind-blowing experience of taking something for only a few days and feeling my humanity come back again.”

“I think when you take the media out of it and you isolate them in a place they feel very safe (in their office) and there’s no cameras around and they don’t feel the need to get their talking points across, and you have a human-to-human conversation with them about this issue, the result is that much better because you isolate all of these external influences that they’re constantly under and you say, ‘Listen, I am talking to you as a human being. This was my experience. This is what I did to heal myself.’ …Watching them have their epiphany about this is so fun.”

“When these campaigns win with very small margins (like 1%, 3%, 5%), that means half of the state voted against it, and that means half the state wasn’t being spoken to in these campaigns in the right way. …The U.S. is extremely diverse, and not just racially, but within perspectives that exist in this country, and we cannot just be speaking to one side of this issue. We have to really engage with the public in a meaningful way, and that is speaking to the half of the country that doesn’t understand this.”

“We forget that the traditional pharmaceutical industry has yet to step in on this issue. I think that they’re very closely watching what’s going to happen with psychedelics, but they have yet to stick their lobbyists on the hill. And that is the day that I am not looking forward to, because they have one of the most powerful lobbies in the country and they have budgets for this kind of work in the billions of dollars, really. So how is the psychedelic industry going to compete with that? How you counter that is: you educate members of congress, you educate those influential people before the pharmaceutical industry gets there so they can’t fill their heads with misinformation.”

Links

Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects

Maps.org: Zendo Project Celebrates a Decade at Burning Man and a New Beginning for the Organization

BBC.com: People were taking drugs in Spain 3,000 years ago, study finds

Telegraph.co.uk: Rory Lamont: ‘My rugby injuries made me suicidal – psychedelic drugs saved me’

Benzinga.com: Bipartisan Letter Calls For Including Active Service Members In Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Research

Benzinga.com: This South American Country Wants To Legalize Natural Psychedelics: What’s Going On In Uruguay?

———————————————

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

Psychedelicmedicinepac.com

Psychedelics Today: PT338 – Melissa Lavasani – The Power of Storytelling, The Preservation of Peyote, and “How to Change Your Mind”

NBCnews.com: Candidates who support psychedelics as medicine get a political action committee

Psychedelics Today: PT327 – Rick Doblin, Ph.D. – Confronting Abuse in Clinical Trials and the Future of Psychedelic Medicine

Psychedelics Today: PT229 – Dr. Matthew Johnson – What is Consciousness?

Governing.com: What Can Communities Do to Prevent Psychedelic Healing Centers?

Arpa-h.gov

April 11, 2023April 11, 2023

PT404 – Clusterbusters: The Horrors of Cluster Headaches and the Miracle of Psilocybin

In this episode, Joe lets Court Wing take lead in interviewing two of the leaders behind Clusterbusters: Founder and Executive Director, Bob Wold; and President, Eileen Brewer.

A long-time friend of the show, Court Wing has become our resident expert on chronic pain, writing articles about how psilocybin relieved his chronic pain, and hosting Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD in their episode about phantom limb pain. Now he speaks with Clusterbusters, a non-profit dedicated to educating people about the horrors of cluster headaches, funding ongoing research into new treatments, and normalizing the miracle that psilocybin has been to so many sufferers in alleviating their headaches.

Wold and Brewer discuss their past struggles (Wold is a cluster sufferer and Brewer has migraine disease) and discovering the amazing intervention of psychedelics; the battles they’ve gone through in spreading this knowledge; how using psychedelics is also helping people work through PTSD; the barriers that legal psilocybin is creating; the concept of schools having a drug education program; the research looking at cluster headaches and other headache diseases; their creation of the Pain And Psychedelics Association, and more. While cluster headache sufferers have a lot to be frustrated about; as psilocybin becomes more mainstream and more and more research is funded, they now have a lot of hope.

Notable Quotes

“A couple of people started growing their own mushrooms and self-treating themselves just to try it to see if it might actually help, and the results were incredible. It was better than anything that any of them had tried in the past. It wasn’t really an abortive (it wasn’t treating one headache) and it wasn’t really a preventive, where you would take it and you would prevent some of your cluster attacks. It was something that was actually doing both of those things, and people were getting long-lasting results by one or two doses of magic mushrooms.” -Bob

“It makes sense that that would happen within a disease community, it happens outside of disease communities too. Some people just use psychedelics occasionally just to get that perspective back and to work within themselves (and without themselves) to sort it all out, [and] get themselves back together. And I think there’s a real division there between people who do that and people who don’t.” -Eileen

“The two or three years before my first dose of psilocybin, my medical bills were like $20,000 a year trying to treat my clusters. That included hospital stays and specialists and travel. …The first time I grew my own mushrooms, it cost me a hundred dollars to grow a year’s supply and I didn’t have to go to Walgreens to pick up my medicine. So my medical treatment for the following year for my cluster headaches was $100 versus $20,000 and I was able to take as much as I needed when I needed it. And at this point, that’s what most people with headache disorders are doing; they’re growing their own because the system is going to take years and years to be built into something that’s actually accessible to everybody – and affordable.” -Bob

“People are dying while we’re waiting for these policies to happen, and I’m really struggling with the fact that we are setting up more barriers. I know that all the intentions are good, but we are hurting people.” -Eileen

Links

Clusterbusters.org

Remaptherapeutics.com

Psychedelics Today: Surprising Results: Psilocybin Trial for Depression Alleviates Chronic Pain

Psychedelics Today: Why Did Psychedelics Relieve My Chronic Pain?

Psychedelics Today: PT391 – MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy For Fibromyalgia and Other Central Sensitization Syndromes, featuring: Dr. Devon Christie & Dr. Pamela Kryskow, MD

Psychedelics Today: PT306 – Dr. Devon Christie – Vital Psychedelic Conversations

Psychedelics Today: PT315 – Dr. Dominique Morisano – From Research to Reality: Planning a Global Psychedelic Summit

Psychedelics Today: PT369 – Chronic Pain and Phantom Limb Pain: Could Psilocybin Be the Answer?, featuring: Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD

UC San Diego Psychedelics and Health Research Initiative

Newswire.ca: Apex Labs Granted Approval for 294 Patient Take Home Psilocybin Clinical Trial

FDA.gov: Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies | REMS

Yalemedicine.org: Emmanuelle Schindler, MD, Ph.D.

Maastrichtuniversity.nl: Dr. Jan Ramaekers

Clinicaltrials.gov: Psilocybin in Patients With Fibromyalgia: EEG-measured Brain Biomarkers of Action (Psilopain)

April 4, 2023April 4, 2023

PT403 – Understanding the Brain: Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified

In this episode, David interviews neuroscientist, artist, and educator, Melanie Pincus, Ph.D.; and Ph.D. candidate in Neuroscience, lead or co-author on over a dozen scientific publications, and regular contributor to PT, Manesh Girn.

They tell their stories of how they became interested in neuroscience, and stress the importance of staying radically open-minded (or “epistemically naive”) when it comes to how much we can claim we understand about the brain, the mind-body connection, and consciousness itself – that while fMRI and other advances have brought us a long way, there are still a ton of “unknown unknowns,” especially around creativity, decision making, and imagination. They discuss the misconception that we only use 10% of our brains; comparisons between the brain and the universe; society’s misunderstanding of “happy hormones” (dopamine, serotonin, etc.); how chronic stress takes a toll on all parts of the body; how MDMA works with memory processing; and how stacking modalities with the psychedelic experience (like play or activities focused on emotion regulation) can really help with personal goals and growth.

They have taken their understanding and fascination with neuroscience and applied it to a new course in our Psychedelic Education Center: “Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects“: an 8-week live course with 10 hours of prerecorded material and a built-in community. It was designed with practitioners and clinicians in mind, but with the goal of still being as accessible as possible for anyone who is curious about the neuroscience of psychedelics, and how that knowledge can help with preparation, the journey, integration, and working with a heightened window of neuroplasticity.

Class begins on May 17, and if you sign up before April 12, you can get $100 off!

Notable Quotes

“There’s so much good science now, and good neuroscience that can inform how people work with their clients in terms of helping them set up for and make sense of their psychedelic experience and ways to optimize the preparation before going into a psychedelic journey, the actual psychedelic journey in terms of thinking about dosing and type of substance to work with, and then also in the integration period, where there’s this heightened window of neuroplasticity and how one could really work with a client to best take advantage of that window of opportunity to lead to lasting change.” -Melanie

“It’s just this blob, this squishy blob of matter. And you think: for that person, their entire life, experiences, memories, [and] hopes were all happening in this little blob that’s in my hand. And just seeing all the layers of blood vessels and how everything’s connected to each other, it’s just fascinating and it’s downright bizarre that somehow, this thing can give rise to experience and consciousness. It’s like, how the hell is that even possible?” -Manesh

“For people who are interested in stacking modalities, there’s other modalities that are really potent at promoting neuroplasticity. So if you want to synergize with the window of plasticity during the integration period, you could for sure partake in regular exercise, because that’s one of the most well-known plasticity promoters.” -Melanie

“How do we respond adaptively to times of change? How do we adjust ourselves? How do we create homeostasis in a changing environment, and how do we adapt to new circumstances? And this is also a whole brain/nervous system/body affair as well, on how to regulate your entire organism to deal with change and to be resilient and to be adaptable. It’s not just in the brain. It’s not just in the brain at all.” -Manesh

Links

Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects (Sign up before April 12 for $100 off)

Syncopydesignlab.com

YouTube: The Psychedelic Scientist

Psychedelics Today: Psychedelics Weekly – Research Explained: Ketamine and the Corticothalamic Network, Psilocybin and the Immune System, & Canalization and Plasticity, featuring Manesh Girn

Psychedelics Today: PT258 – Manesh Girn – Psychedelics and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and Creativity

Theguardian.com: Dreamachine, the psychedelic contraption hoping to blow British minds

Huffpost.com: What Exactly Are Sweetbreads, Anyway? A Guide For Anyone Who Doesn’t Already Know

Wikipedia.org: Jamais vu

Jannalevin.com

Britannica.com: Do We Really Use Only 10 Percent of Our Brain?

Sciencedaily.com: Massive study reveals few differences between men’s and women’s brains

Healthline.com: How to Hack Your Hormones for a Better Mood

The Fellowship of the River: A Medical Doctor’s Exploration into Traditional Amazonian Plant Medicine, by Joseph Tafur, MD

Psychologytoday.com: What Does ‘Allostatic Load’ Mean for Your Health?

Psychedelics Today: PT288 – Annie & Michael Mithoefer – Vital Psychedelic Conversations

Minoritytrip.com: s1e8 – Manesh Girn: Curiosity as Freedom from Circumstance, the Default Mode Network, and Nature of the Networked Mind

Attending Breaking Convention? Come see us and use code PSYCHTODAYBC10 for 10% off all purchases!

March 28, 2023March 29, 2023

PT401 – The Self-Entropic Broadening Theory: Understanding The Psychedelic State and Psychosis

In this episode, Joe interviews Ph.D. student in the Drug Use and Behavior Lab at the University of Alabama Birmingham, Haley Maria Dourron.

She talks mostly about the paper she co-authored last year with Dr. Peter Hendricks and Camilla Strauss: “Self-Entropic Broadening Theory: Toward a New Understanding of Self and Behavior Change Informed by Psychedelics and Psychosis,” which analyzes the long-standing comparisons between the psychedelic state and psychosis, and points out important distinctions between the two – that science should be looking more at the way one processes information and their level of self-focus rather than similarities in outward behavior. She discusses what she calls entropic processing, which is essentially how one’s brain creates novel ideas, relations, and insights based on very loosened mental schemas: with new information being considered in new ways (with no filter), do the connecting pathways that seem like eureka moments actually make sense?

She discusses the broaden and build theory and the broadening of intentional scope; entropy; chronic LSD use and risk of psychosis; schizophrenia and psychedelics; why science needs to embrace naturalistic research, and more. As of this release date, there are still a few participatory spots left in her current study on the effect of psychedelic experiences on people who have a history of psychosis, so if you had an episode of psychosis at some point and have gone on to use psychedelics, she wants to hear your story.

Notable Quotes

“It’s such a wide open space where there’s still so much room to learn. And to me, it feels as if we’re opening a time capsule of all these different questions that have been kind of covered up, and we now have better technologies to probe what’s really going on.”

“A lot of work was actually done in the 1950s, giving people with schizophrenia LSD, psilocybin, [or] DMT, [and] oftentimes, apparently they had a reduced response. So that just shows how much more room we have to learn what really could be happening with these drugs, what populations necessarily should be excluded, [and] who is actually likely to experience adverse responses.”

“The acute experience might kind of serve as a catalyst for people creating changes, but then it’s ultimately the changes that they make in their daily lives afterwards, and if they’re putting in the work of building those enduring resources, if you will. It might be [easier] to do so in the immediate afterglow of a psychedelic experience, but you’ve still got to try if you want those enduring effects.”

Links

Researchgate.net: Self-Entropic Broadening Theory: Toward a New Understanding of Self and Behavior Change Informed by Psychedelics and Psychosis

Scientificamerican.com: LSD May Chip Away at the Brain’s “Sense of Self” Network

Verywellmind.com: An Overview of Broaden and Build Theory

Psychedelics Today: PT245 – Robin Carhart-Harris – Psychedelics, Entropy, and Plasticity

Wikipedia.org: Louis Sass

Iflscience.com: LSD, DNA, PCR: The Strange Origins Of A Biology Revolution

The Myth of Mental Illness: Foundations of a Theory of Personal Conduct, by Thomas S. Szasz, M.D.

Psychedelics Today: PTSF59 – Bipolar and Psychedelics, with Benjamin Mudge

Investigating the Phenomenology and Perceived Mental Health Impact of Classic Psychedelic Experiences in People with a History of Psychosis (her new study – only a few spots left for participation)

Check out Beckley Retreats here, and listen to CEO Neil Markey in episode PT400 here!

March 24, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – More Trouble For Field Trip Health, Ketamine Wellness Centers Abruptly Close, & The Creation of the Psychedelic Medicine PAC

In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, Joe and Kyle are back at it, talking about news and what’s going on at Psychedelics Today (applications for Vital close this Sunday, March 26, and we’ve just announced a new neuroscience course!).

Following up on last week’s news that Field Trip Health had closed five clinics, they start with more unfortunate news: that Field Trip is laying off a lot of people, Ronan Levy has resigned as the CEO, trading has been suspended, and the company has obtained CCAA Protection (which, through the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, essentially allows a struggling company a chance to restructure its finances to avoid bankruptcy, all through a formal Plan of Arrangement). And in similar news, all Ketamine Wellness Centers (an Arizona company recently acquired by Delic Holdings) would be closing immediately, with employees let go with little warning or explanation. These stories (and Synthesis Institute’s downfall) highlight the sad reality many of us in the psychedelic space forget: that just because a business is heart-centered and psychedelic-minded, it’s still a business, and businesses need to be profitable to survive.

Next, they cover Melissa Lavasani and the Psychedelic Medicine Coalition creating the Psychedelic Medicine PAC (Political Action Committee) to get more government funding behind psychedelic research. Members of PMC went to D.C. last week, presenting a psychedelic briefing to begin the process of educating legislators about the realities of plant medicines and psychedelic-assisted therapy (and Joe was there).

And they discuss more: concerns over Australia’s recent about-face on MDMA and psilocybin being used legally; a recent study where researchers used EEG and fMRI together to record what is happening in the brain while under the influence of DMT (and we should probably have Manesh Girn on again to explain it better than we could); and an interview with Eric Andre at SXSW where, in about 2 minutes, he brilliantly shines a light on drug exceptionalism, the lies of the drug war, and the need for more education on psychedelics – all to a bewildered reporter who didn’t seem prepared to talk to Eric Andre (we are- please come on the podcast!).

Links

Navigating Psychedelics/Beckley Retreats giveaway

Psychedelic Neuroscience Demystified: How Psychedelics Alter Consciousness and Produce Therapeutic Effects

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

Psychedelicalpha.com: Field Trip Health & Wellness Obtains CCAA Protection

Meetfieldtrip.com: Field Trip Health & Wellness Obtains CCAA Protection

AZfamily.com: Ketamine Wellness Centers in Arizona and across county abruptly shut down

NBCnews.com: Candidates who support psychedelics as medicine get a political action committee

Psychedelicmedicinecoalition.org

Nofallenheroesfoundation.org

ABC.net.au: ‘Serious concerns’ over TGA’s decision making on landmark psilocybin, MDMA ruling

TGA.gov.au: Change to classification of psilocybin and MDMA to enable prescribing by authorised psychiatrists

Pharmala.ca

Interestingengineering.com: Scientists unlock effect of psychedelic drug DMT on the human brain

Pnas.org: Human brain effects of DMT assessed via EEG-fMRI

Vox.com: Wilder Penfield redrew the map of the brain — by opening the heads of living patients

Beyond the Brain, by Stanislav Grof

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn

Fox26houston.com: Eric Andre talks his love of psychedelics at SXSW

March 21, 2023March 22, 2023

PT400 – Beckley Retreats: Combining Modern Science, Tradition, and Holistic Wellness

In this episode, Joe interviews the Co-Founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats, Neil Markey.

Markey describes Beckley Retreats as comprehensive well-being programs, and talks about the importance of holistic wellness – that, while the retreats are centered around two group psilocybin experiences, the true benefits come from complementary factors: the four weeks of online prep and community building before the retreat, the six days in Jamaica surrounding the experiences, the six weeks of integration work after, and the depth of connections people find in the new community they may not have realized they needed so badly. He breaks down the details of the retreats and what they look for in facilitators, and tells a few success stories that really highlight how trauma, opposing ideas, and an infatuation with material objects and amassing wealth can all get in the way of real relationships and meaning.

Beckley Retreats is currently working on two new projects: an observational study with Heroic Hearts and Imperial College London on using psilocybin for-traumatic brain injury, and a study with Bennet Zelner and the University of Maryland to bring executives through a retreat to see how it affects leadership and decision-making: can they prove that these types of experiences lead to more heart-centered leaders?

We are currently running a giveaway where you can win a one-on-one meditation class with Neil and a custom Beckley Retreats tote, as well as many other prizes. Click here to enter!

Notable Quotes

“The problem, a lot of times with Western medicine, is if you can’t understand the mechanics of it, then we kind of discard it, or if you can’t isolate a single variable, then we discard it. It’s like: well, some things work in tandem. If you actually peel the physics back, it looks like everything’s connected to everything, so we’ve got to think about more comprehensive approaches. I think that you can learn a lot from looking at traditional practices and some of the Indigenous wisdom that’s out there; that there’s a method to how this work has been done for quite some time and we shouldn’t disregard it.”

“If we can help people in a clinic model, let’s do that. But [with a] clinic, again: when you take someone, you give them a mystical experience, and then they go right back home or right back to work and right back into life, are you creating enough space for there to be optimal change? I think we need to keep studying it and asking those questions.”

“[Amanda Feilding] never saw a rule that she didn’t want to break. She’s [this] lifelong badass that has just gone against the grain for her entire career. But it was never about money for her, it was all because she thought she could help people. It’s so inspiring. We need more of those stories; less stories about people that made a billion dollars or whatever and more material things, and [more of] these stories about folks that are just out there trying to help others. It fires me up.”

Links

Beckleyretreats.com

Upcoming Beckley Retreats

Beckleyfoundation.org

Psychedelics Today: Amanda Feilding – The Beckley Foundation: Changing Minds through Psychedelic Research

Vetsolutions.org

Heroicheartsproject.org

McKinsey & Company

Beckleywaves.com

Brainyquote.com: H.G. Wells quote (Joe said it was Mark Twain)

Pubmed: The gut microbiome and mental health: advances in research and emerging priorities

Psychedelics Today: PT372 – The Heroic Hearts Project: Veterans and The Impact of Storytelling, featuring: Jesse Gould & Zach Riggle

Psychedelicspotlight.com: Imperial College and Heroic Hearts Launch Psychedelic Research Retreat For Veterans With Head Trauma

Psychedelics Today: PT399 – Vital Psychedelic Conversations, featuring: Bennet Zelner, Ph.D. & Giles Hayward

Maps.org: The Pollination Approach to Delivering Psychedelic-Assisted Mental Healthcare

Synthesisretreat.com: Expansion: Leadership Edition (original leadership study through Bennet Zelner)

Nbcews.com: Candidates who support psychedelics as medicine get a political action committee

March 10, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – Drug-Free Digital Trips, The Prevalence of Challenging Experiences, and the End of Synthesis Institute

In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, David is joined by Kyle, who is finally home after a lot of traveling, to talk shop and dig into the articles they found the most interesting this week.

They begin with the news that Paul Stamets now has a species of mushroom named after him (Psilocybe stametsii), then take a look at a recent self-report study called “Prevalence and associations of challenging, difficult or distressing experiences using classic psychedelics,” which aimed to collect data on just how many psychedelic users (in this study, anyone who had ever tried a psychedelic) felt that they had had a challenging or difficult experience. They discuss the results and highlight some interesting data: that LSD was the most commonly associated substance, that smoking cannabis was one of the most commonly reported interventions, and of course, the question of whether or not these experiences were beneficial.

They then talk about Synthesis Institute closing its doors, the possible hope Synthesis could have, and the sadness in this – when businesses fail, it’s easy to look at numbers and profit margins and be dismissive, but we forget the people involved; not just at Synthesis, but the hundreds of would-be students.

And lastly, they look at an article about a California-based startup called the Reality Center, which uses a combination of pulsing lights, sounds, and vibrations to create a drug-free but seemingly very psychedelic experience, reminding us yet again that you do not need a substance to achieve non-ordinary states of consciousness.

Links

Forbes.com: There’s A New Species Of Magic Mushroom – Named After Paul Stamets

Graham Pechenik’s thread about the Stamets Stack becoming patented

Breakingconvention.co.uk

Fantasticfungi.com

Biomedcentral.com: Ketamine can be produced by Pochonia chlamydosporia: an old molecule and a new anthelmintic?

Mushroom.cat: Psilocybe Weilii: Good for Making Magic Mushrooms? Don’t Mistake It With Psilocybe Caerulescens

Psychedelics Today: PT377 – Integrative Medicine: Health, Wellness, and Psychedelics, featuring: Andrew Weil, M.D.

Sciencedirect.com: Prevalence and associations of challenging, difficult or distressing experiences using classic psychedelics

Psychedelics Today: PT314 – Daniel McQueen, MA – Vital Psychedelic Conversations

Psychedelicalpha.com: Inside Synthesis Institute’s Implosion

Retreat.guru

Oregon.gov: Higher Education Coordinating Commission

Stripes.com: A drug-free, digital psychedelic trip

Realitymgmt.com

Lucialightexperience.com

Psychedelics Today: Allison Pelissier – Lucia N°03 Light Experience

Psychedelics Today: PT394 – We Are The Medicine, featuring: Victor Alfonso Cabral, LSW

Pictureacolorfulworld.com

March 7, 2023April 28, 2023

Mind the Gap: The Importance of Gender Equity in Psychedelic Clinical Trials

Psychedelics, once heavily restricted for research, are now being rigorously tested through clinical trials to explore their potential therapeutic benefits. But how are women represented in the search to uncover the efficacy of psychedelic medicines?

While the inclusion of women in psychedelic clinical trials is clearly important – both to understand the effects of these medicines on all genders as well as to develop effective treatments for conditions that primarily affect women – women have historically been underrepresented in clinical trials.

Why has this become the norm? Is it because women aren’t as available as men to participate in studies? Or perhaps women don’t suffer from the illnesses being studied as often as men?

Spoiler: it’s neither.

The Clinical Trial Process – An Overview

The clinical trial process is, largely, a series of research studies that evaluate the safety and effectiveness of new drugs, treatments, or medical devices on human subjects. To fit into a pharmaceutical model, a.k.a. develop a drug or treatment protocol that clinicians can prescribe and health insurance will cover, psychedelic medicines must follow the same clinical trial process that all new drugs and treatments undergo.

If it seems like there’s a new clinical trial announced each week – from psilocybin for depression to MDMA for PTSD to LSD for cluster headaches – it’s because these trials are crucial (and non-negotiable) for biotech companies seeking to bring their compounds and modalities to market. These trials aim to prove the effectiveness of a particular compound or method of use, and ultimately secure the holy grail of U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval.

Clinical trials are conducted in several phases, each with specific goals:

Phase 1: A small number of healthy volunteers receive the drug or treatment to evaluate its safety and determine the appropriate dosage.

Phase 2: A larger group of volunteers with the condition that the drug or treatment is designed to treat receive the treatment to assess its effectiveness and side effects.

Phase 3: An even larger group of volunteers with the condition receive the treatment in a randomized and controlled study to confirm its effectiveness and monitor side effects.

Phase 4: The drug or treatment is approved and marketed for public use, and ongoing studies continue to monitor its long-term safety and effectiveness.

Throughout the clinical trial process, participants are closely monitored and data is collected to evaluate the drug or treatment’s safety, efficacy, and potential side effects.

Applications are open for the second edition of Vital, our 12-month training certificate program in psychedelic therapy and integration, beginning in April 2023. Head to Vitalpsychedelictraining.com for more info, or attend a Q+A to have your questions answered.

A Brief History of Women in Clinical Trials

As hard as it may be to believe, it wasn’t until 1993 that women and minorities were required to be included in any NIH-funded clinical research. In 1977, the FDA recommended excluding women of childbearing age from Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials, even if they used contraception, were single, or had husbands with vasectomies.

The objective was to avoid unforeseen birth defects in babies born to women in clinical trials. The result, however, is that most currently prescribed medications were approved by the FDA before 1993 – which means they’re prescribed to women and men at the same dose and were unlikely to have adequate representation of women in their clinical trials.

Francesca Minale, President of Vici Health Sciences and an expert at working with the FDA to bring new medications through clinical trials to approval, says the lack of gender differentiation in dosing persists despite known differences in disease states by gender.

“There is a lack of incorporation of gender data and generic specific dosing and administration on FDA-approved prescription labels,” said Minale. “This gender bias in the research needs to be addressed, especially as it is well documented that many diseases, such as mental health or heart disease, are recognized to have gender differences.”

Excluding women from early-stage clinical trials led to a vast shortage of data around how today’s drugs affect women – a knowledge gap that scientists are still trying to fill. Even though the NIH now requires women to be included in all clinical research funded by the government agency, there are still many criteria that make it difficult for women to participate in clinical trials.

Women in Psychedelic Clinical Trials

The results of clinical trials play a critical role in informing regulatory decisions about whether to approve new medicines for widespread use. However, in the past, clinical trials often failed to accurately reflect the populations they intended to serve – especially women.

This is actually a pretty big problem, because women experience adverse drug reactions nearly twice as often as men. Women consistently manifest elevated blood concentrations and longer elimination times of drugs, unrelated to differences in body weight.

As psychedelic clinical trials seek to determine the safety and efficacy of new psychedelic treatments, it’s imperative we learn from past mistakes. A recent study identified 86 medications approved by the FDA that are more likely to cause complications for women than men.

But yet it’s common practice to prescribe equal doses of medications to men and women – contributing to the overmedication of women and female-biased adverse drug reactions.

In fact, because women were excluded from many pivotal clinical trials, many drugs have been withdrawn from the market or have had their labels changed to include warnings about increased risks for women after they were already approved by the FDA and widely used.

This self-guided class investigates the history, science, and best practices for safe and effective microdosing; hosted by Adam Bramlage, founder of Flow State Micro, Dr. James Fadiman, the “father of modern microdosing,” and a dozen expert guest faculty. Enroll today!

Modern Barriers to Women’s Participation in Clinical Trials

Amy Reichelt, Ph.D., Director of Neuropharmacology at Cybin explained, “In early-stage clinical trials (i.e., Phase 1) where drugs are tested in healthy volunteers, key inclusion/exclusion criteria can bias genders tested.”

Typical protocol wording includes: “Women of childbearing potential (WOCBP) must be non-lactating and have a negative pregnancy test. Females who are not WOCBP must be either surgically sterile or post-menopausal.” Reichelt said. “This immediately excludes a number of women, particularly when age ranges of trials can have cut-offs of 55-60 years.”

Moreover, it is often written into the trial protocol that a woman of childbearing potential must agree to practice an effective means of birth control/contraception during their participation in the clinical trial, and following the trial for several months. This could impact individuals who are trying to start a family for many months, again discouraging women from participating.

Reichelt pointed out, “Later stage trials (i.e., Phase 2b, Phase 3) can be less restrictive as they are testing in patient populations and initial safety tests are fulfilled in the healthy volunteers in early stage trials, but still there are often requirements for contraceptive use that fall upon the women’s responsibility.”

In addition, body weight restrictions may also prevent women from participating if they are below the protocol threshold i.e., less than 60 kg/132 pounds.

Biological Gender Differences and Why They Matter

The differences between the sexes in circulating levels of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estradiol, can affect pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic parameters – which help determine how the drug is absorbed, distributed and metabolized in the body, and how the drug affects the body, Reichelt explained.

Body composition can impact how a drug is processed and eliminated from the body, too. “Women typically have a lower body weight than men, so when the same dose of a drug results in a higher level of drug circulating by body weight. As women generally have a greater body fat content than men, some drugs can be distributed through the body differently,” said Reichelt.

The impact of sex can differ across life stages, too. After menopause, the reduction of estrogen can alter aspects of brain plasticity. Preclinical studies have shown that at the neuronal level, estrogen can increase the density of dendritic spines.

This brain phenomena may subtly affect mood and cognition during a woman’s estrous cycle, and could affect clinical outcomes. More studies are needed to fully understand these impacts, especially when it comes to psychedelic medicines which are closely tied to brain plasticity and dendritic spines.

For Natalie Gukasyan, M.D., Medical Director of Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, the physiological differences between men and women in the psychedelic experience and outcomes is an area that requires further investigation.

“We don’t yet have a clear understanding of how different biological factors, such as hormonal fluctuations, including menstrual cycle and menopause, may impact the psychedelic experience. However, it does seem that psychedelics may have an impact on menstrual function,” she said.

Gukasyan co-authored a recent study published in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs on the impact of psychedelics on menstrual function. While the study looked at only three women ranging from 27 to 34 years of age, the results were significant enough to warrant more research.

“Although phenomena related to menstrual and reproductive function have been largely overlooked in the psychedelic literature to date, these effects may have therapeutic utility and warrant further study,” the study concluded.

Where To Go From Here

In the field of psychedelic medicine, where compounds are being extensively studied scientifically for the first time, the underrepresentation of women in clinical trials could have serious consequences for the safety and efficacy of these treatments. Without data on the experiences of women, it is impossible to accurately assess the potential benefits and risks of these new medicines before bringing them to the masses.

By working to increase the representation of women in clinical trials for psychedelics, we can help to ensure that these treatments are developed in a way that is safe, effective, and equitable for all.

Thankfully, many psychedelic clinical trials are moving forward with this ethos. For example, two-thirds of the participants in the MAPS’ Phase 2 and 3 clinical trials of MDMA therapy for the treatment of PTSD were women.

Rick Doblin, the founder of MAPS, said, “When it comes to PTSD, we talk a lot about the veterans, but it’s mostly women who are sexually abused or have childhood traumas that have PTSD. I think that the media attention on veterans sort of distracts people from the understanding that it’s mostly women that we are treating. Two-thirds of the people in the [MAPS] study are women.”

So far, MAPS has administered MDMA to approximately 1,700 human subjects. Their recent Phase 3 clinical trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD also included an assessment of gender identity beyond the binary male and female gender assigned at birth – an important distinction since transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people experience PTSD at higher rates than the general population.

Other groups conducting clinical trials actively seeking women participants include Psycheceutical Bioscience, which has partnered with clinical research organization (CRO) iNGENū in Australia to conduct its Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials of a topical ketamine cream to treat PTSD.

“iNGENū takes gender balance in clinical trials very seriously and the diversity of participants is one of the key metrics we strive to achieve. We naturally want our clinical trials to recruit participants who closely match the intended population who will benefit from the drug when it is eventually approved,” said iNGENū CEO Dr. Sud Agarwal.

Women-Only Trials

While the inclusion of women in psychedelic clinical trials is critical to the success of this new paradigm in medicine, there’s also a whole realm of largely untapped research on the benefits of psychedelics for health conditions experienced only by women.

Felicity Pharma is a psychedelic biotech company focused on women’s health that’s secured a proprietary psilocybin-based drug for premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD), a very severe form of premenstrual syndrome that affects up to 10 percent of women globally as well as postpartum depression.

Olivia Mannix, Felicity Pharma co-founder and CEO, said “We are passionate about transforming women’s healthcare. Women have been traditionally excluded from clinical trials because of hormonal fluctuations and general biological makeup. We are making a stand to develop female-focused therapeutics, where women will be the only patients used in trials.”

February 21, 2023February 21, 2023

PT391 – MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy For Fibromyalgia and Other Central Sensitization Syndromes

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Devon Christie: Senior Lead of Psychedelic Programs at Numinus, educator at CIIS and Vital, and MAPS-certified MDMA therapist; and Dr. Pamela Kryskow, MD: founding board member of the Psychedelic Association of Canada and Medical Lead of the nonprofit, Roots To Thrive.

Christie and Kryskow recently co-authored one of the first papers looking at MDMA for chronic pain, “MDMA-assisted therapy is associated with a reduction in chronic pain among people with post-traumatic stress disorder,” which came about after they received access to MAPS’ Phase 2 data from a lead-in PTSD study and noticed significant improvements in pain measurements – something the study was not looking for at all. They’re looking into where chronic pain fits within the frameworks of Western medicine and psychedelic-assisted therapy, and discuss the many reasons why MDMA should be tremendously helpful for chronic pain and other conditions that fall under the large umbrella of central sensitivity syndromes and nociplastic pain. They are currently working on a new study following the MAPS protocol that will research MDMA-assisted psychotherapy specifically for people with fibromyalgia, which some believe might be physicalized PTSD. If you’d like to contribute a tax-deductible donation, visit giving.viu.ca, select “other” from the dropdown, and type in “MDMA for Fibromyalgia.”

They talk about how research trials focus too much on the molecule while ignoring what the patient is saying; how a large percentage of physicians and patients don’t at all like the psychometrics used in measuring data; how physicians regularly use expectancy bias but research trials don’t (and how that affects results); why everyone needs to place higher importance on the biopsychosocial model; the idea of being more humble with science and using “theoretical” more often; the problems with microdosing trials; and the issues with evidence: If there isn’t sufficient evidence, why isn’t there? And what exactly would be sufficient?

Notable Quotes

“It’s kind of an irony because it’s really a single molecule pharmaceutical model to go: ‘Is it working?’ whereas every day, every clinician out there is using expectancy and placebo effect to their patients’ benefit. So, I would like us to have that conversation in a much more intelligent way, saying it’s going to be there, it’s not a bad thing, and in fact, if you don’t have that, you’re probably a bad clinician. So, let’s harness it, and then say, ‘and is the treatment [going] above and beyond that?’” -Pam

“Where’s the scientific curiosity? That’s what we need to be. When our patient says: ‘This is helping me,’ we should never be saying, ‘No, that’s not possible because there’s no evidence.’ We should be leaning in and being curious: ‘Tell me more.’” -Pam

“Homogenizing through trying to do the randomized control trials, you end up sort of sterilizing to isolate one specific variable in trying to make your study population as similar as possible. And in the real world, that’s just not the case. In the real world, people are on 10 different medications. So what’s really even the applicability when we sterilize and homogenize so much [for] what we believe is giving us the best evidence?” -Devon

“If we really look and open our eyes, in many, many circumstances, the pathology is not individual whatsoever. The pathology is in our culture and in our society and how disconnected we are and the intergenerational trauma that’s passed along, and then parents without support and no hope of not passing that along because our society isn’t providing the optimal environment on a societal level for us to be thriving. So I think a cure on an individual level needs to be couched within thinking about a cure on a collective level.” -Devon

“The reason I got involved even in the research is because so many of my patients were coming to me and saying, ‘I am microdosing. It is helping.’ So it goes back to: Do you believe people? And I personally believe my patients when they say that. …When I have people coming in and saying ‘I’m out of bed now. I used to lay in bed for 18 hours a day and now I’m out, I bought a dog, I’m exercising’; if it’s a placebo or expectancy, awesome. I’m going to celebrate that.” -Pam

Links

Donate to the MDMA for Fibromyalgia study (select “other” from the dropdown, and type in “MDMA for Fibromyalgia.” (tax deductible and no fees)

Drdevonchristie.com

Psychedelics Today: PT259 – Dr. Devon Christie and Will Siu, MD, DPhil – The Mind-Body Connection, MDMA, and Chronic Pain

Psychedelics Today: PT306 – Dr. Devon Christie – Vital Psychedelic Conversations

Numinus.com

Rootstothrive.com

Earthguardians.net

Psychedelics Today: PT331 – Julie Zukof & Dr. Michelle Weiner – Psychedelic Women, Coaching, and Ketamine For Fibromyalgia

Frontiersin.org: MDMA-assisted therapy is associated with a reduction in chronic pain among people with post-traumatic stress disorder

Dolenlab.org

NYU Langone’s Department of Psychiatry: Center for Psychedelic Medicine

Peoplescience.health

Imperial College London: Centre for Psychedelic Research

Researchgate.net: Psychometrics is not measurement: Unraveling a fundamental misconception in quantitative psychology and the complex network of its underlying fallacies

BPI: Brief Pain Inventory (short form example)

Psychedelics Today: PT369 – Chronic Pain and Phantom Limb Pain: Could Psilocybin Be the Answer? Featuring: Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD

Microdose.me

Vancouver Island University Center for Psychedelic Research

February 3, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – Research Explained: Ketamine and the Corticothalamic Network, Psilocybin and the Immune System, & Canalization and Plasticity

In this episode of Psychedelics Weekly, the rest of the team is out or at Cannadelic, so a new voice steps up to the plate: Julian Bost, who works with the Vital team and handles the majority of our email, records his first podcast with Ph.D. candidate in Neuroscience, friend of the show, and speaker at Convergence: Manesh Girn.

You may remember the team covering some articles at the end of December and early January that were quite confusing and immediately met with a response of: “yea, we should have someone on to explain this to us.” This is that episode, with Manesh breaking down three very scientific articles into much simpler terms (at least we hope).

He covers:

“The psychotomimetic ketamine disrupts the transfer of late sensory information in the corticothalamic network,” which found that ketamine created hyperconnectivity in rodents’ brains, impairing their ability to process sensory input, which could lead to a better understanding of schizophrenia;

“Psilocybin induces acute and persisting alterations in immune status and the stress response in healthy volunteers,”: which showed an interaction between psilocybin and the stress system, immune system, and central nervous system – showing a greater recognition for how the immune system and inflammation are involved in disorders;

And a paper he co-wrote with Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris and many others, “Canalization and plasticity in psychopathology,” which aims to reframe neuroplasticity, disorders, and psychedelic interventions, and leads to a discussion on how adaptive thought patterns develop, the ability to relearn as “Temperature or Entropy Mediated Plasticity (TEMP),” Daniel Kahneman’s idea of fast and slow thinking, early trauma intervention, and the concept of viewing mental illness as a process rather than an identity.

As confusing (at least to the layperson) research seems to pop up daily, we may have Manesh on from time to time to help us understand some of these studies. How did he do? Did he clear up any of these articles for you? And should Julian be on the podcast more?

Links

YouTube: The Psychedelic Scientist

Psychedelics Today: PT258 – Manesh Girn – Psychedelics and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and Creativity

Psychedelics Weekly on YouTube

Wiley.com: The psychotomimetic ketamine disrupts the transfer of late sensory information in the corticothalamic network

Medrxiv.org: Psilocybin induces acute and persisting alterations in immune status and the stress response in healthy volunteers

Sciencedirect.com: Canalization and plasticity in psychopathology

Wikipedia.org: Thinking, Fast and Slow

Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman

The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture, by Gabor Maté, MD with Daniel Maté

January 10, 2023January 10, 2023

PT381 – DMT, Hierarchies of Complexity, and Reality Switch Technologies

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Andrew R. Gallimore: computational neurobiologist, chemical pharmacologist, researcher, and writer of Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game.

Gallimore feels that DMT is the most efficient and effective reality switching molecule we’ve seen, and that there is no other psychedelic experience that is so in your face: If we really could communicate with entities not of our known universe (who may have created our universe), how can so many dismiss that as a hallucination? Why would we not want to pursue something so mind-bending and revolutionary? His hope for his newest book, Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds, is that it will be the quintessential guide for how psychedelics work in the brain from all levels of organization, what happens when you perturb the brain, and the future: how we might be able to fine-tune our brains to access different realities at will.

He discusses the element of design used in his books; why understanding something as complex as DMT is a multidisciplinary practice; the genius of Terence McKenna; what Alien Information Theory was about; his work with Rick Strassman in researching intravenous infusion DMT pumps to keep someone in the DMT verse; Conway’s Game of Life and the unpredictable levels of complexity that can arise from simple rules; lucid dreaming; John Mack, alien abductees, and trusting a patient’s experiences as real; psilocybin yeast; and much more.

This one will definitely make you think!

Notable Quotes

“It’s always felt a little bit sci-fi in a way, in that you’re planning basically a program of inter-dimensional citizenship. It feels like that. I mean, Terence McKenna used to [say] ‘galactic citizenship,’ and it’s almost like we’ve leapfrogged over galactic citizenship and we’re now going straight to inter-dimensional, trans-dimensional citizenship (whatever you want to call it) where we’re interfacing and communicating with an intelligence not of this universe. I mean, that’s a wild idea. And we have the technology now. To me, this infusion technology; this is the way to do it.”

“We’re just at the beginning now. You take virtual reality technology and the way that that is progressing, then you add artificial intelligence into the mix, and then you add pharmacology and neuropharmacology, chemical pharmacology and other neural manipulation systems, and you begin to realize that our brain is this tool – this world-building machine that we can learn to tune to access other worlds.”

“There’s also deja vu of course, the sense of having been there before – this very profound, deep sense of deja vu; not like we’ve all had, that occasionally you get that sense of deja vu that something has happened before. This is like, ‘I really, really have been here before. This is the most bizarre place I couldn’t possibly have imagined or conceived of; an impossible place of impossible geometry, and yet at the same time, it seems bizarrely familiar. ‘Why? Why would some place that should be the most unfamiliar place possible– There isn’t a more unfamiliar realm that you could imagine than the DMT world, and yet people think, ‘Oh my God, I’ve come home.’ And the entities, the elves will sing and cheer and bells will ring and lights will flash and [they’ll] say, ‘He has returned! The one has returned home! Welcome back! We’re so pleased to see you!’ This great uproar, this great celebration as you burst into this space. Why would that happen?”

Links

Alieninsect.net

Alieninsect.substack.com

Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds, by Andrew R. Gallimore

Psychedelics Today: Dr. Andrew Gallimore – Accessing High-dimensional Intelligence through DMT

Pubmed: A Model for the Application of Target-Controlled Intravenous Infusion for a Prolonged Immersive DMT Psychedelic Experience

Medicinalmindfulness.org

DMT-nexus.me

Psychedelicreview.com: Early Clinical Research History of DMT

Wikipedia.org: Conway’s Game of Life

Stephenwolfram.com

Wikipedia.org: Edward Fredkin

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us about Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

Wikipedia.org: Chaos magic

Psychedelics Today: What do Alien Abduction and Psychedelic Experiences have in Common? Let Dr. John E. Mack’s Work Explain

Ralph-abraham.org

Drzee.org

Newatlas.com: Scientists turn yeast into psychedelic psilocybin factories

January 6, 2023January 6, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – Psilocybin-Assisted Psychotherapy for I.B.S., NY Aims to Legalize, and B.C.’s Decriminalization Experiment

In this week’s episode, Joe and David meet up to talk about Vital, Convergence, and the latest news:

-Tryp Therapeutics and Mass General signing a letter of intent for a Phase 2 clinical trial investigating the effects of psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy for the treatment of Irritable Bowel Syndrome – interesting because it further highlights the likely effect of psychedelics on the brain-gut connection and that psychotherapy is involved;

-New York lawmakers pre-filing a bill to legalize DMT, ibogaine, mescaline, psilocybin and psilocyn (and remove them from the state’s banned substances list) for 2023;

-New York’s first cannabis dispensary finally opening on December 29;

-British Columbia responding to their opioid crisis (the latest data reports 14k deaths since 2016) by beginning a Portugal-like decriminalization model, allowing people 18 years and older to carry a combined 2.5 grams of drugs (heroin, fentanyl, cocaine, methamphetamine and even MDMA);

and finally, an interesting but confusing (maybe a follow-up is necessary) article showing that what we’re learning about ketamine could lead towards a better understanding of psychosis and schizophrenia.

Links

Accesswire.com: Tryp Therapeutics and Massachusetts General Hospital Sign Letter of Intent for Clinical Study Investigating the Use of Psilocybin-Assisted Psychotherapy for the Treatment of Patients Suffering From Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)

Psychedelics Today: PT350 – Psilocybin and Accessing the “Off” Switch For Nociplastic Pain, featuring Jim Gilligan

PT283 – Greg McKee – Nociplastic Pain and Psychedelics

PT369 – Chronic Pain and Phantom Limb Pain: Could Psilocybin Be the Answer? Featuring: Timothy Furnish, MD & Joel Castellanos, MD

Lucid.news: Researcher Charles Nichols Studies the Impact of Psychedelic Substances on Inflammation

Marijuanamoment.net: New York Lawmakers File Psychedelics Legalization Bill For 2023

Fox5ny.com: NY lawmakers propose bills to decriminalize, study psychedelics

Nydailynews.com: Crowd swarms first legal NYC marijuana shop on second day; long line to enter East Village store

Housingworks.org

Cheknews.ca: B.C. poised for drug decriminalization experiment, but will it help stem deadly tide?

Wiley.com: The psychotomimetic ketamine disrupts the transfer of late sensory information in the corticothalamic network

Neurosciencenews.com: Ketamine Found to Increase Brain Noise

Sciencedirect.com: Canalization and plasticity in psychopathology

December 30, 2022January 2, 2023

Psychedelics Weekly – Psilocybin and Stress Response, the Minnesota Medical Association Endorses Decriminalization, and Scott Wiener Introduces Senate Bill 58

In this week’s episode, Joe and Kyle are together again before Kyle sets off for a 2-month road trip centered around Vital retreats, where we hope he’ll be able to report in from live while in Jamaica.

They talk about Vital: applications are open for the April 2023 edition and close in February, so if you have questions, check out the website or attend an upcoming Q+A. And Joe and other members of the team will be at MAPS’ conference in Denver this June (use code PT15 at checkout for 15% off), as well as Cannadelic in Miami this February.

And for the news, they highlight four stories this week: “Psilocybin induces acute and persisting alterations in immune status and the stress response in healthy volunteers,” showing that, even with a small study, long-term stress response was much lower than the placebo group; The Economist highlighting psychedelic medicines as one of the five stories to watch out for in 2023; the Minnesota Medical Association endorsing the decriminalization of drugs with a 219-34 vote, mimicking the Portugal model and saying that there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that criminal penalties for possession deter drug use; and San Francisco Senator Scott Wiener submitting a new version of his previously denied SB-519 (now SB-58) that no longer includes LSD and MDMA – modeling the more natural medicine model that we’ve seen succeed in other states. As Joe says often, we want everything and we want it now, but every step helps, as we’ve seen with recent posts about people not being sent to prison for the rest of their lives.

Links

Convergence

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

Vital 2023: Informational Session and Q&A

Microdosing Masterclass: Investigate the history, science, and best practices for safe and effective microdosing

Psychedelicscience.org (MAPS conference, use code PT15 for 15% off)

Medrxiv.org: Psilocybin induces acute and persisting alterations in immune status and the stress response in healthy volunteers

Psychopharmacology in Maastricht’s Twitter thread about this study

Springer.com: Effects of psilocybin on hippocampal neurogenesis and extinction of trace fear conditioning

The Economist: The World Ahead 2023: five stories to watch out for

Awaknlifesciences.com

Yahoo.com: Medicine Innovations Group Announces Closing Under Share Subscription Agreement

Marijuanamoment.net: Minnesota Medical Association Endorses Decriminalizing Drugs

Marijuanamoment.net: New Jersey Senate President Files Psilocybin Legalization Bill That Includes Home Grow Option, Unlike Current Marijuana Law

Sfgate.com: ‘Magic mushrooms’ would be decriminalized in California under new bill

Lawenforcementactionpartnership.org

Instagram: ICEERS’ post about Kat Courtney, who was sentenced to 40 years in prison in the USA for ayahuasca

Cannadelic.miami

December 16, 2022December 16, 2022

Psychedelics Weekly – Proposition 122 in Action, The Economics of Psychedelics, and Could States Legalize by 2037?

In this week’s episode, Joe and David team up again to discuss what news interested them the most this week: the DA dropping a felony drug charge against a mushroom rabbi in Denver due to the passing of Proposition 122; Numinus Submitting a Clinical Trial Application to Health Canada that would give in-training practitioners the ability to experience psychedelics with their psilocybe-containing EnfiniTea; and a University of Exeter-led trial moving forward with the next step in a study using ketamine for alcohol use disorder (with 2/3 of the money coming from the National Institute for Health and Care Research).

They also review a paper that analyzed the economics of psychedelic-assisted therapies and how insurers come into play; as well as The Journal of the American Medical Association stating that, based on current trajectories compared to cannabis legalization, they believe the majority of states will legalize psychedelics by 2037. So nice to see these continued steps in the right direction!

And if you missed it, we just announced that applications are open for the next edition of Vital. There are incentives to paying in-full by certain dates, so if you missed out on last year’s edition or have been curious, attend one of our upcoming Q+As!

Links

Cure for common cold? New research finds immune response in nose that plummets when temps drop

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com (Applications open now!)

Vital 2023: Informational Session and Q&A (Have questions about Vital? Attend one of these sessions)

Convergence: Where Conference Meets Festival

The Way of the Psychonaut Vol. 1: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys, by Stanislav Grof, MD, Ph.D.

Microdosing Masterclass: Investigate the history, science, and best practices for safe and effective microdosing

The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide: Safe, Therapeutic, and Sacred Journeys, by James Fadiman, Ph.D.

Denverpost.com: DA drops felony drug charge against Denver’s mushroom rabbi, citing voter legalization of psilocybin

Congress.gov: H.R.1308 – Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993

Thesacredtribe.org

Numinus.com: Numinus Submits Clinical Trial Application to Health Canada for Experiential Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy Training Research

Frontiersin.org: The economics of psychedelic-assisted therapies: A research agenda

Therapsil.ca: Quebec first province to cover costs of psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy, done by two physicians

Jamanetwork.com: Psychedelic Drug Legislative Reform and Legalization in the US

Marijuanamoment.net: Most States Will Legalize Psychedelics By 2037, Analysis Published By American Medical Association Predicts

Psychedelicalpha.com: Psychedelic Legalization & Decriminalization Tracker

Bbc.com: Ketamine for alcoholics trial goes to next stage

Psychedelics Today: Webinar: Psychedelic Integration and Depth Relational Process – 12/9

December 9, 2022December 12, 2022

Psychedelics Weekly – Genetic Memory, “The Psychedelic Renaissance,” and Harm Reduction at Music Festivals

In this week’s episode, Joe and David team up for the first time to discuss three articles: Chacruna’s breakdown of the study, “Ceremonial Ayahuasca in Amazonian Retreats – Mental Health and Epigenetic Outcomes From a Six-Month Naturalistic Study,” Double Blind’s “Why the ‘Psychedelic Renaissance’ is just Colonialism by Another Name,” and the results from the trial of a 20-year old woman who died at the 2017 Lightning in a Bottle music festival – where the jury found Do Lab, Inc., RGX Medical, and RGX Founder Richard Gottlieb to hold 75% of the liability in her death, with MAPS holding 25%.

In discussing these articles, much is covered: methylation and genetic memory; addiction; gut biome; cesarian births; how much inequality is built into the “psychedelic renaissance” due to it primarily evolving out of inherently unequal Western societal paradigms; permaculture; new ways to be together; Burning Man; the concept of the nuclear family; the power in working with your hands; creativity; harm reduction and the lack of readily available drug testing kits; and more.

Links

Vitalpsychedelictraining.com

Convergence

Microdosing Masterclass: Investigate the history, science, and best practices for safe and effective microdosing

The Microdosing Guidebook: A Step-By-Step Manual to Improve Your Physical and Mental Health Through Psychedelic Medicine, by C.J. Spotswood, PMHNP

Chacruna.net: Ceremonial Ayahuasca in Amazonian Retreats: Mental Health and Epigenetic Outcomes From a Six-Month Naturalistic Study

The study on Pubmed

Psychedelics Today: PT295 – Sidarta Ribeiro – Dreams, LSD, and Biopiracy

Psychedelics Today: PT270 – Dr. Rachel Yehuda – Research Trials and The Future of Psychedelic Neuroscience

The Way of the Psychonaut Vol. 1: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys, by Stanislav Grof, MD, Ph.D.

The Fellowship of the River: A Medical Doctor’s Exploration into Traditional Amazonian Plant Medicine, by Joseph Tafur, MD

Psychedelics Today: PT326 – Dr. Rick Barnett, Psy.D – Addiction, Recovery, and Competency in Psychedelic Therapy

Doubleblindmag.com: Why the “Psychedelic Renaissance” is just Colonialism by Another Name

Psychedelics Today: PT376 – Ketamine and Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy as Employee Benefits, Featuring Sherry Rais

Wikipedia.org: Nagoya Protocol

How Soon Is Now?: A Handbook for Global Change, by Daniel Pinchbeck

Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work, by Matthew B. Crawford

Maps.org: Jury Finds in Favor of Plaintiffs in Trial on Harm Reduction and Medical Responsibility

Lucid.news: MAPS Found Liable in Wrongful Death Lawsuit

MAPS’ Settlement-and-Release-Agreement-5.27.21

Zendoproject.org

Wearetheloop.org

Psychedelics Today: PT370 – Prohibition, Civil Disobedience, and The Coca Leaf Cafe, featuring Dana Larsen

YouTube: Israeli Harm Reduction – A Real World Trip From Raves to Parliament (A Psychedelics Today webinar)

December 2, 2022December 2, 2022

Psychedelics Weekly – Cannabis as an Adjunct Cancer Treatment & 5-MeO-DMT Reactivations

In this week’s episode, Joe and Alexa talk about the excitement brewing around our first conference-meets-festival, Convergence (March 30 – April 2 at the Wisdome in LA), and some of the sponsorships starting to come in (interested? email Alexa@psychedelicstoday.com).

Then, they dive into what intrigued them the most this week: a study looking into potentiality and possible causes of 5-MeO-DMT reactivation (and what reactivation actually is); New York cannabis farms sitting on $750 million worth of cannabis as the government drags its feet on licenses; and the story of a woman who used cannabis and psilocybin as an adjunct to standard therapy in the treatment of advanced metastatic breast cancer.

Links

Convergence (Use code PTINSIDER10 for 10% off!)

Thebrothersapothecary.com (Use code SHROOM for 30% off)

Hearthstonecollective.com

Psychedelics Today 236 – Drugs: Honesty, Responsibility, and Logic, featuring: Dr. Carl Hart

Psychedelics Today 268 – PCP, 5-MeO-DMT, and The Synthesis of New Psychedelics, featuring: Hamilton Morris

Frontiersin.org: Reactivations after 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine use in naturalistic settings: An initial exploratory analysis of the phenomenon’s predictors and its emotional valence

YouTube: Norm Macdonald talks LSD

Psychedelics Today: HPPD and Flashbacks: Everything You Need To Know – And What We Don’t Know, Too

Bloomberg.com: New York Cannabis Farms Have $750 Million of Weed — and Nowhere to Sell It

Grace Health & Wellness

Journals.sagepub.com: Raising awareness: The implementation of medical cannabis and psychedelics used as an adjunct to standard therapy in the treatment of advanced metastatic breast cancer

Ricksimpsonoil.com

Lucid.news: Researcher Charles Nichols Studies the Impact of Psychedelic Substances on Inflammation

Righttotry.org: What Is Right To Try?

Leaf411.org: The cannabis nurse hotline

November 29, 2022November 29, 2022

PT375 – Microdosing & Citizen Science: Introducing the World’s First Take-Home EEG Microdosing Study

In this episode, Victoria hosts a bit of a microdosing roundtable, speaking with three champions of microdosing: “The Father of modern microdosing,” James Fadiman, Ph.D.; Adam Bramlage, Founder/CEO of Flow State Micro (a functional mushroom company and microdosing educational platform); and Conor Murray, Ph.D., a neuroscientist at UCLA who conducted the world’s first EEG microdosing study.

Fadiman and Bramlage recently launched a very popular course through our Psychedelic Education Center: “Microdosing Masterclass,” which covers the history and science of microdosing, as well as best practices for microdosing safely and effectively. They discuss the roots of microdosing, decriminalization and concerns over the corporatization of psychedelics, what we’ve seen so far in research, and how we’re finding ourselves in an era where people are going to be allowed to actually help themselves.

Murray is hoping to make big waves in the promotion of microdosing with the world’s first take-home EEG microdosing study: participants will be mailed a wireless headband that will be able to track brain activity in real world scenarios – the citizen science we’ve so desperately needed in comparison to lab studies that couldn’t be more different from how people actually live day-to-day. There is no criteria to participate, and, in contrast to lab studies, they want all data possible: people who are in therapy or not, people following different microdosing protocols, people microdosing for different reasons, etc. Will microdosing improve brain scores on cognition and emotion? Will participants see measurable improvements? And how will these numbers look when comparing scores months after initial peak neurological windows?

If you’d like to participate, head to psynautics.com and sign up. The first 50 people to do so will receive the wireless EEG to track their brain for one month for only $40.

Notable Quotes

“Because it’s inherently interesting for people to find that their consciousness can be improved (not necessarily changed) and that their whole physical system can also be improved, microdosing has found a natural niche which is: it might be good for you, and as far as we can tell, it’s very, very, very, very, very rarely bad for you. And that’s a nice risk/reward ratio.” -James

“It’s hard to fool the brain. You can maybe have a good placebo effect if you’re trying to ask someone: how much do you think your cognition’s improving today or emotion’s improving today? But it’s harder to fool the brain into having a different answer.” -Conor

“There’s so many people who will not buy into this until it’s proven by modern science, and that’s why Conor and his work is so important, and this new study with the wireless headbands and the idea that every citizen scientist on the planet can write Conor at Conor@psynautics.com and be a part of this study and get a wireless headband – I mean, that is fascinating. That is taking microdosing out of a sterile lab and putting it into the natural environment where it came from, as hunter-gatherers, for hundreds of thousands of years.” -Adam

“That’s really the metaphor, which is: the more windows, the more you see different views, and there’s nothing good or bad about any particular window except how clean it is. …We’re opening up bigger windows in more directions than has been the case in the past.” -James