In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview previous guest of the show, Daniel Greig. In the show, he goes in depth into the meaning of enlightenment and previews the new book he is writing with Dr. John Vervaeke, The Cognitive Continuum.
3 Key Points:
Insight, flow and mystical experiences are all facets of working toward enlightenment.
Enlightenment is really a fundamental grip on reality. It’s about maintaining a relationship with the transcendent, it’s not about just constantly escaping this body life.
The mystical experience is a glimpse at consciousness. The most important part of having a mystical (psychedelic) experience is coming back into our bodies and developing better relationships with ourselves, others and the world.
Daniel is an educator, organizer and artist living in Toronto. He studied Cognitive Science and Philosophy at the University of Toronto, specializing in wisdom, consciousness, and spiritual belief and experience. In 2015, he founded the Mapping the Mind conference that occurs annually in Toronto, which raises much needed funds for psychedelic research. Daniel regularly host lectures and workshops, on topics in cognitive science. He is currently writing a book with Dr. John Vervaeke on the science of enlightenment, which will be published in 2020. When not contemplating the realm of the intellect, Daniel delves in the sonic perturbations of music, writing and producing progressive metal.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Chris Bache, author of LSD and the Mind of the Universe. Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions and talks about his experience in the show.
3 Key Points:
Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions, but he says that pushing the edge of high dose and high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties. He does not recommend high dose sessions like he did.
The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves.
In the show, they discuss psychedelic therapy and the debate on whether or not therapists should have to have psychedelic experience to do the therapy. Chris believes that the level of experience a therapist has had will impact the type of support they will be able to give.
He was the professor of Religious Studies, sticking to his traditional life
He knew there would come a time for him to share his experiences with a larger audience
Chris says he’s always been locked into his body and his physical experience
He had no background in psychedelic states of consciousness
He said you’re always working with a sitter and same context/setting
As the dosage increased, he began creating a more intense music playlist
Chris thinks music is very important for psychedelic sessions
Chris does not recommend working with high doses
“When you’re working with opening consciousness that radically, music has a tremendous effect, it has an amplifying effect by 5 or 10x than doing it without music” – Chris
Chris said he has experienced all the common layers of the psychedelic unconscious that’s talked about
Chris experienced 4 different death/rebirths
Chris differentiated 5 levels of the universe
The first is at the personal mind, where an ego death happens
The second takes places at the collective mind, about species
The third level is an archetypal mind, the high subtle mind, moving beyond the species existence
The fourth level is causal mind, causal oneness, profound states of non-dual reality
The last is Diamond Luminosity, its absolute clarity, pureness
Chris says that there is a certain level of support that one needs to truly let go of themselves and let go to the experience
He says that he thinks the level of experience will impact the type of support a therapist will be able to give
The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves
Pushing the edge of high dose, high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties
Chris says he was very secret about his psychedelic use, his students didn’t know about it
But he said after he had gone deep and touched these different levels of consciousness, his students became alive
The deeper he went in his own work, the more it touched the students at a deeper level
Chris thinks that LSD is a little cleaner than other psychedelics
His basic sense is that psilocybin tends to be less evocative, disruptive
Ayahuasca is more disruptive in opening up to deeper levels
LSD is the most disruptive in opening people up to really deep levels of consciousness
With LSD is was less about his personal experience, and more about the collective unconscious experience
With one of his experiences, he had seen everything in his whole life all at once
He then entered into archetypal experiences, the platonic domain beyond the time-space reality
The beings he ‘met’ were as large as universes, responsible for creating time and space
He went into ‘deep time’, different magnitudes of time experiences in a broader frame of reference (where we are in the history of time, what our future looks like)
He reached that diamond luminosity level only 4 times out of all of his LSD sessions
“If we keep this up, sooner or later, the totality of this consciousness is going to wake up” – Chris
“We are moving toward a collective wake up, it’s not a personal experience, it’s a collective experience. An evolution of our species.” -Chris
If Chris has one tip, is to let go of our fear of death, when we die, we go back home
After so many sessions, and not taking the time to stop to integrate, after years, his body was screaming for community, and he felt this deep existential sadness and felt as if he was just waiting to die
It took 10 years to integrate his deep exploration, and to finally feel okay and comfortable again in his body suit and in this life
The universe is an infinite ocean of possibilities, we will never reach the end
“The collective psyche is being cosmically stimulated by the trauma that we are entering into” -Chris
Christopher M. Bache is professor in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Youngstown State University where he taught for 33 years. He is also adjunct faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies and a Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. An award-winning teacher, Chris’ work explores the philosophical implications of non-ordinary states of consciousness, especially psychedelic states. Chris has written three books translated into six languages: Lifecycles – a study of reincarnation in light of contemporary consciousness research; Dark Night, Early Dawn – a pioneering work in psychedelic philosophy and collective consciousness; and The Living Classroom, an exploration of teaching and collective fields of consciousness. His new book is Diamonds from Heaven ~ LSD and the Mind of the Universe (2019).
Joe says he has been practicing non-drug transpersonal states (breathwork) for years
You can have a psychedelic experience without drugs, and you can also take psychedelics and not have the psychedelic experience at all, it’s not about the drug
“Everyone has an innate desire towards transcending who they are, moving towards wholeness, and personal and societal transformation” – Peter
“If I’m kind, then people around me are more likely to be kind, it’s about the transformation of groups and societies than about having a cool trick” – Peter
“Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy is proven to do a lot of really good things, but it’s not the only way and it’s not necessarily the right way. There are wrong ways to do it, but not one culture owns this experience.” – Peter
“Having a healthy critique of science in the modern world is helpful because its a series of provisional truths, it’s a good tool to get closer to objective reality, but its not perfect, it’s all we have so far” – Joe
Peter says that art is an amazing tool as well
Verbal language is limiting, he has seen images that can convey an experience way better than words can
Salvinorin A is the active molecule that causes the psychedelic experiential reports
There are at least a dozen unique compounds in the Salvia plant
There was going to be a bill to make Salvia illegal in 2008 or 2009
Now it’s just illegal for minors
Peter recruited 30 people who had all used psychedelics
He used a controlled set, setting and intention
He used either a Salvia extract or just the unadulterated leaf
No one in the real world is using Salvinorin A, they are smoking the leaf or using extracts of the leaf
The participants smoked it when they desired, Peter was not enforcing the smoking
It was a very relaxed setting
Once the participants smoked, they then had an experience for 10 minutes, and then he came together with them and just listened to their experience
2 people got up and moved, the rest just sat there in the experience
Interoception (the inner feelings of your body) is the internal form of proprioception (the feeling of your body in space)
Every time you smoke something it is going to hit you quickly and be over quickly
By the time you realize what’s going on in a Salvia experience, you’re already on your way out
In the Mazatec culture, they do not smoke it, they use a sublingual method
The clinical applications of Salvia are tricky right now
It’s not easy to get funding for psychedelic research
Peter says if you do get funding, attach it to something else
MDMA research didn’t just begin to ‘see what it could help’, PTSD sucks, and there isn’t a whole lot that works to treat it, but MDMA does and it just happens to be a type of psychedelic
Peter is both a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in Washington and a Licensed Professional Counselor in Oregon. He earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology from Sofia University in 2011, including certification in biofeedback and Process Oriented Psychodrama. There, he studied non-ordinary states of consciousness, holistic and all-encompassing views of a person, and ways that these experiences can transform a person and society. Peter then engaged in post-degree specialty training at Danville State Hospital, Yale University School of Medicine, and the Connecticut Mental Health Center. As faculty at Yale University he engaged in research and training. Some of his clinical training is in mindfulness-based therapies, Motivational Interviewing, and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. He also discovered a passion for data management and security which he brings with him to his online therapy practice.