The Thought Room is a combination of edge-of-your-seat storytelling and groundbreaking interviews with celebrated thought-leaders from around the world.
Recorded remotely everywhere from hotel rooms in New York City, to a camper van in Maine; from the coastal forests of Costa Rica, to a picnic blanket amongst grapes in a vineyard in Sedona—host Hallie Rose captures rich, face-to-face interviews and intimate storytelling in a variety of eccentric locations.
Through a collection of captivating conversations in the fields of health, spirituality, and personal development, the Thought Room provides a rare glimpse inside of the rawest aspects of being human. We take a deep dive into examining the events that shape us, the stories we weave, how we label our traumas, reclaim our power, and to what degree our thoughts can shape who we are.
Topics Explored:
> Kyle’s near death experience at 16 years old, how that has shaped his life since
> Existential questions of life, connecting with ourselves, the human experience
> Non-ordinary states of consciousness
> Intuition, cultivating a relationship with our inner intelligence, the intelligence of the body
> Kyle’s organization Psychedelics today and the motivation behind founding it
> Is DMT released during near-death experiences? Does DMT feel similar to dying?
> Is it possible to consciously change our internal states through the manipulation of our breathing? Can simply changing our breath-pattern send us into altered states of consciousness?
> Science/research on the medicinal and ceremonial use of psychedelic substances
> The ceremonial and ritual use of psychedelic substances throughout history, how it’s shaped our culture
> Drug policy, marginalizing populations within society
> Understanding the power of psychedelic substances, developing frameworks for this understanding, reconnecting to our traditional roots
> Research: Johns Hopkins, UCLA – psilocybin near-death anxiety research; Maryland Psychiatric Institute – Bill Richards, Stan Groff; MAPS; MDMA in the Therapeutic contexts? FDA: Phase 3 clinical trials
> Do we fully understand the power of these substances? Do we have proper structures in place to support it?
In today’s Solidarity Friday’s episode with Kyle and Joe, they cover current events on COVID-19, social media narratives, a new world, psycho-pharma, psychedelic VICE articles, movies about acid and more.
Show Notes
Coronavirus
Joe and his girlfriend are recovering from being sick, potentially coronavirus (they weren’t allowed to be tested without being hospitalized)
Joe said he was really sick in a new and novel way
Kyle is located in New Jersey (currently around 19,000 cases, close to 250 deaths)
He has a weak immune system, so he is trying to be super careful by staying isolated (he hasn’t left the house in weeks besides to go on a walk outside)
Joe says this whole thing is really going to impact humanity and life on earth
The ecosystem of commerce is fragile and this is a strong way of showing it
Kyle says that Drumpf estimated 250,000 deaths in the US
Joe says we are going to get through this, and life will go on, but what will that look like?
How can the conscious show up as leaders?
When we are in a fear state, we don’t make rational decisions
Narratives
Kyle says all of the psychedelic people that he is connected to on social media are posting so much on 5G right now
There are dual narratives, like people dying, but also a lot of info on conspiracies
What do we pay attention to, and what is really happening?
Joe said that he played in the conspiracy, occult area for a while, and he couldn’t find any solid ground
In times like this, the conspiracy media ramps up, because people are afraid, and that impairs cognition
There is a lot of media saying that COVID-19 is a biological weapon
There is a lot of unknowns, and how do we not panic?
Processing All of This
We were not evolved for this moment
Now, how do we evolve to handle this stuff?
How do we build resilience?
As ecosystems collapse, some organisms start to mingle with other organisms and then viruses like this can come up, and will pop up more in the future
We are in a spiritual emergence-y right now, we need to bring up our shadow and do the work
What can I actually do in my life right now? Instead of worrying about everything
A New World
90% of products in the consumer economy right now are completely non-essential
We are on a finite planet with finite resources don’t mesh with infinite growth
Hopefully this is the emergency that we need to re-imagine the future
There is a role that the psychedelic community plays in this
The psychedelic culture is familiar with sitting with shadow, doing the inner work, and taking a creative approach at alternative systems and reimagining the future
Kyle says this feels psychedelic, having new ideas about what the future could look like, what we can offer the future
A lot of the things that we wish for are starting to unfold, in some sense, the collective has been wishing for the things that are happening
When we take substances, we are upgrading our operating system
Psycho-Pharma
MindMed (Mind Medicine) call themselves a leading neuro-pharma company for psychedelic inspired medicines
Right now they are working on a compound, essentially an iboga-like drug
There is a lot of suffering happening in the world, and whatever tools that can help with the suffering will do
There is a roller coaster of the psychedelic experience
If every experience was just rainbows and happiness, it would just devalue the human experience
Kyle says think about it, that sitting in a chair for a few hours with music can easily induce a psychedelic experience
Joe says “the experience is within you, the drug is a key to help unlock that”
Shadow Panel
Kyle is co-hosting a Shadow Panel with Ido Cohen and takes on a Jung approach to process the shadow
They host interviews with doctors and other speakers on the topic
They explore a lot of somatics in the shadow
It is a donation based course right now, potentially paid in the future
Final Thoughts
Joe says we are heavily impacted by COVID-19, a ton of breathwork events all had to be cancelled
But we have a ton of online courses and resources available, from integration books, to online guided therapist and clinician courses, to psychedelic online courses, coaching, and more
Joe said he had a fun conversation with a film producer (Malibu Road) on the acid scene in the 70’s
The film cant be streamed yet, but the trailer is out
About Kyle
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Dylan Beynon, founder of Mindbloom, NYC based mental health and wellbeing platform. In the show they talk about how Mindbloom differs from other centers, paving the way for accessibility and affordability.
3 Key Points:
Mindbloom is a next-generation mental health platform, catered to accessibility and affordability.
They use ketamine tablets, different from lozenges and any other method. The tablets are held in the mouth and then spit out to avoid entering the liver, causing a sedation-like experience.
Mindbloom differentiates themselves from other psychedelic therapy options by using a patient-choice model, to keep it affordable for those who need it. They offer the 4-week therapy model and give patients the option to choose ‘add-ons’ like extra integration.
Dylan is not a clinician or a doctor, he is an entrepreneur and a psychedelic medicine and therapeutic ketamine patient
These medicines have been transformative in his life and he wants to bring their benefits to the public
He grew up in a family that suffered greatly from mental illness
He lost his mother to addiction
He discovered positive psychology
When learning about the science of happiness, he realized that he wasn’t happy
He was in business school and wanted to be a banker and make a ton of money
He soon realized that money doesn’t buy happiness, and he thought maybe everything he was doing was a lie
He was self medicating with psychedelics
About 5 years ago he heard about psychedelic therapy
About 18 months ago he started working with a clinician doing ketamine therapy
He saw that when it’s done in a therapeutic context, it can have a profound effect for people to get the most out of it
“Recreational vs therapeutic use is a false dichotomy” – Dylan
Mindbloom
The goal is to build the next-generation mental health platform
Right now they are doing Ketamine therapy
They are trying to make it accessible by making it affordable
They are trying to bring an elevated client experience, which they do with the space and software
Software Background
Voters Friend – a platform to help inform voters on the candidates, to increase access to democracy
Mighty – increasing access to social justice
Mindbloom – increase access to psychedelic medicines
Differentiation
The protocols that Mindbloom are using are capped
They are increasing access to the medicines, making it affordable
They keep it at $150-$250 a session, where at most Ketamine Therapy centers, it can range from $1000-$2000 a session
Dylan says he makes this possible by bringing in technology and software tools to make the sessions for efficient and effective
They use patient choice care, where the patient can use their best judgement on how in depth they want their treatment
They can ‘add on’ extra integration time onto the therapy session, or choose not to
This keeps the price down and accessible for each individual patient if need be
Mindbloom is a 4 session program, usually 1-2 months
They use the platform to have the client practice using the information in the weeks between each session, so they can practice integration even when not with a therapist or in session
The Program
The clinician prescribes a 4 week Ketamine Therapy session for anxiety and depression
The clinician will schedule a video interview to learn their symptoms
Then they will meet in person and build an integration program if needed
Its $1000 for the 4 session program and $600 for the renewal program
They use Ketamine tablets (similar to lozenges but faster acting)
They’re not swallowing it, they spit it out after
If they swallow it, it breaks down in the liver into nor-ketaine, and that produces a sedative effect
After they spit it out, there is about an hour of music with no vocals
After the session, they move to an integration room where they are journaling
The protocols at Mindbloom were based on the MAPS protocol
They don’t have a clinician in the room during the experience, only for after the experience
Dylan is looking to expand to other locations
A lot of people request couples or group therapies, so they will be taking that into consideration when building new locations
Final Thoughts
The more people who are thinking critically about this and putting their intentions into making this more accessible the better
There needs to be more gentle conversation around psychedelics and therapy, especially around the people that are still so unaware about this field
We should bring sacredness, specialness, and care to the conversation with those who might still be afraid about it
Dylan is the Founder & CEO of Mindbloom, an NYC-based mental health and wellbeing startup helping people expand their human potential with clinician-prescribed, guided psychedelic medicine experiences. There, he is partnering with clinicians, technologists, researchers, and patients to increase access to science-backed treatments, starting by reducing the cost of ketamine therapy for depression and anxiety by over 65%. Dylan is a 10-year psychedelic medicine patient and 3-time tech entrepreneur with both $100M+ in funding and an exit in his prior startups, which were focused on increasing access to justice and democracy. Dylan graduated from The Wharton School at The University of Pennsylvania.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Dr. Ryan Westrum, Psychedelic Integration Therapist. In the show, they talk about topics and teachings from Ryan’s book, The Psychedelic Integration Handbook.
3 Key Points:
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook is designed to bring psychedelic experiences into the flow of your life and maximize their potential for helping you create the life you want to live.
There is an important part in distinguishing integration from aftercare. Aftercare can look as simple as taking care of your body, getting good rest, eating well. You can’t integrate without taking care of yourself first.
One of the pillars of integration is PREP (purpose, reflecting on experiences, expectations, potential).
“As a western civilization, we have really minimized the opportunity for growth, the expansion of consciousness, and to be ourselves.” – Ryan
These experiences are powerful, and to come back to a culture that does not support it, is hard
The goal is being conscious with your confidence of why you’re doing this work
About the Book
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook is designed to bring psychedelic experiences into the flow of your life and maximize their potential for helping you create the life you want to live
This is not a book with black and white answers but an offering to individual people who want to explore all the possibilities for being alive and seeking wholeness.
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook contains historical perspective, maps of consciousness, approaches for integrating body-mind-spirit, and practical suggestions for all stages of psychedelic exploration.
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook
The book was written for people to make it their own
Its broken into 3 parts, educational, a ‘your turn’ section, and then integration
Its about having a compartment, and then playing within the compartment
Everyone has unique nuances, integration looks different to everyone
Integration practices don’t matter if they don’t personally mean something to you
Integration
The question to help determine the integration needs is, “What does the individual lead with?”
It’s the mind, body, emotion in the spirit altogether
Immediately after a psychedelic experience, some want to talk about it, others embody it
Do they lead with thoughts or emotions?
There is a part in the book: The difference between integration and aftercare
How do we distinguish between self care and integration?
Is my body rested? Am I comfortable? Are my needs taken care of?
Aftercare is grounding
“If you’re not taking care of your body, you won’t be able to integrate” – Ryan
It might not be as complex as it needs to be, its as simple as taking care of yourself
An important part of aftercare, is asking yourself when it is okay to practice again
Ryan was mentored by James Fadiman, and he believed in taking big doses every 6 months
One of the pillars is PREP (purpose, reflecting on experiences, expectations, potential)
Ryan says he is not the gatekeeper
Controlling willpower is a huge step in integration
Some people want to just take psychedelics, but not write, or do yoga, or do any other mindful activity
Safety
Dose, set and setting are the obvious
It’s like a goldrush, some just want to jump in blindly
You have to understand what safety means to you
Ryan thinks we aren’t talking enough about the recreational use
He is excited about all of the conversation on therapeutic use, but he thinks we are ignoring recreational use
He wants to see ritual and reverence in the recreational community
Preparation is so important
Kyle says that a lot of times after an experience he has all of these ideas for how to live his life, and he tries to practice them, but sometimes he finds himself slipping into old patterns of behavior
Ryan says he believes there is still movement and progress, be gentle with yourself
Dr. Ryan Westrum, PhD, LMFT, is an internationally recognized psychedelic integration expert. For more than 15 years, his primary focus has been working with individuals and groups facilitating experiential therapy and integrating psychedelic journeys into healing and personal transformation. Ryan speaks on a myriad of topics and leads experiential groups, like dreamwork integration therapy and psychedelic integration groups.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Jessica DiRuzza, Psychotherapist, Astrologer and Teacher. In the show they talk about how astrology can be used as a tool and framework for navigating and understanding psychedelic experiences.
3 Key Points:
Astrology can be used as an integrative tool for psychedelic and other exceptional experiences.
The planets are emitting some type of force that are letting us behave a certain way. Astrology is the one thing we have agreed upon across millennia and era.
A Saturn Return transit can be a difficult but transformative time in one’s life. This transit happens around age 28-31. During this time, we face crises in our life as we take on greater responsibility. It can feel like death and a rebirth. It can correlate to Grof’s Perinatal Birth Matrix II (“No Exit” and “Cosmic Engulfment”).
She uses Astrology to help put meaning and understanding to what happens in visionary states
She received her bachelors at CIIS and studied and taught with Stan Grof and Richard Tarnes in the Philosophy, Cosmology and Consciousness Program
Since the 70’s, Stan Grof was following his transits and all the transits of his clients
Richard Tarnas and Stan Grof studied astrology as a diagnostic tool for those who would do psychedelics
They studied transit astrology
By looking at these transits, what they found were archetypal similarities
“Our solar system is an extension of our ecosystem here on earth.” – Jessica
“For millennia, the one thing that human beings have agreed upon across cultures and eras, are the meaning of the planets” – Jessica
Astrology is the original science
Free Will vs. Determinism
The planets are emitting some type of force that are letting us behave a certain way
They are reflective, what is happening in the sky is indicative of what’s happening here
Astrology is like a clock, a clock does not make it be a certain time, it just helps us tell the time
Interest in Astrology
Psychedelics brought Jessica to Astrology
Jessica went to her first Burning Man at 20 years old
She received an astrology reading there and said it broke her open
She went to CA to see the reader that gave her the initial reading
She did a high dose LSD session
She re-lived her birth experience, and gave birth to her new self
The person who gave her the reading was teaching with Stan Grof and Richard Tarnas at CIIS
She dropped out of college and moved to attend CIIS
She was in a Uranus conjunct Ascendant transit
Through these experiences she uprooted her entire life
Astrology Lingo
Sun represents our sense of self, our identity in the world, egoic consciousness
Moon represents our relational matrix, our early childhood experiences, our emotions and experiences, and a deep sense of belonging
Rising represents who we are from moment to moment, how we initially meet existence
Zodiac means belt of life
Each aspect carries a different quality
Conjunct means new moon, representing a new beginning
A full moon represents when the sun is opposite than the moon, a blossoming or fruition.
Astrology is a language, the language of the stars
There are so many ways to speak this language, and so many schools of thought
What really matters is the cosmology that goes behind the description
“Both astrology and psychedelics are a tools for self reflection, that hopefully we are using to become more kind and more caring” – Jessica
“Astrology provides a world view or a cosmology to hold what happens in those visionary states, it’s a grounding place to integrate and make meaning of what’s happening” – Jessica
Saturn Return
Saturn return happens from age 28-31
During our Saturn Return, we face crises in our life and take on greater responsibility
It can feel like a death, but also like a birth
“The greater the death, the greater the rebirth” – Jessica
The 4 bpms correspond to the four outer planets
It’s not just in entheogenic spaces that this is applicable
“Working with the resistance consciously, actually helps us move into what the divine or the universe wants us to step into our life, karmically, what we are here to do” – Jessica
Astrology and Psychedelics
Kyle asks about using astrology to pick a time of when to do psychedelics
Jessica responds saying that if you have a strong calling to do so for healing and balance, and you have all the components for proper integration, then it’s a good time
Then, astrology can be used to help find themes and help dissect the experience
Your Saturn transits contain a difference component in each person
The sense of responsibility grows in you
“My deepest calling in this life is to bring Astrology and Psychology together in one unified field” – Jessica
Final Thoughts
Jessica is so proud of the honest integrity that people are bringing to this work
She send best wishes in the great reckoning, and the great becoming
Jessica is a licensed psychotherapist, astrologer, and teacher. Her life is guided by a passion for engaging with people, understanding relationships, and staying connected to the larger world around us. This passion and curiosity led her into the healing profession as a counselor in 2007. For over a decade she has worked collaboratively with individuals, couples, and groups on their transformative journeys. Helping people on their path of exploration and healing is the privilege of a lifetime. Jessica received her Master’s in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Depth Psychology from Pacifica Graduate Institute. She completed her undergraduate degree at California Institute of Integral Studies, where she studied and taught archetypal astrology and transpersonal psychology. Her greatest joy is working in sacred and revolutionary ways with people in psychotherapy, teaching, and astrological consultations. She also shares her work through podcasts and writing on her site.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Rob Heffernan, an independent researcher and activist. In the show, they talk about churches, Ayahuasca, accessibility and the Psychedelic Liberty Summit by the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines. Rob is also part of Chacruna’s Council for the Protection of Sacred Plants.
The Council for the Protection of Sacred plants is “an initiative of the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines that endeavors to advocate for the legality of sacred plant medicines among indigenous peoples and non-indigenous communities, encourage legal harm reduction practices that protect those who use them, educate about conservation of plant species, document relevant legal and social issues, and consult on legal cases including possible litigation. ”
3 Key Points:
The Psychedelic Liberty Summit is a gathering on legal, cultural, and political issues around the emerging psychedelic renaissance.
Accessibility is not just about whether or not people can afford psychedelic therapy, people cant even afford regular therapy, the whole healthcare model is an issue.
A lot of churches get a bad name, but really most churches are built around community. Psychedelics can help revitalize churches.
Rob is a member of the Chacruna Council for protection of sacred plants
He is an integrative sound and music practitioner
He is involved in the Santo Daime
He has been drinking Ayahuasca for over 20 years
He began to ponder and ask a lot of questions about involvement with medicine communities
Psychedelic Liberty Summit
Rob will be hosting a talk on religious exemptions and more
There will be speakers of all different initiatives, from decriminalization to indigenous relations
There are a lot of investors interested in the psilocybin market
The issue is complex because there is this ongoing cultural history of the US and other countries exploiting those cultures and removing resources (oil, medicines, etc)
Ayahuasca
The first time Rob drank Ayahuasca was back in 2000, where there weren’t Ayahuasca retreats going on then
People who lived in the area were not familiar with Ayahuasca use
People started coming from around the world to use Ayahuasca
There are feedback loops between the cities and the forests
People typically think integration is what happens afterwards, but really it is also the sacrifice from the start, the preparation, such as a dieta
We need to honor what we have learned from the indigenous, and give back
Traditional dietas don’t involve actually drinking the Ayahuasca, the culture has come a long way
Accessibility
While these medicines are relatively safe, you can get in trouble using these substances recreationally, there is a role for the therapeutic support
It’s not just about whether or not people can afford psychedelic therapy, people cant even afford regular therapy, the whole healthcare model is an issue
Santo Daime
It was founded in the 1930’s in Brazil
The reason that the Santo Daime looks more white in the USA is due to the segregation
There are all sorts of ways that the Santo Daime may look
When Rob first got involved in drinking Ayahuasca, he wasn’t sure that he wanted to get involved in the Santo Daime, but he said the container was so strong
There are hymns sung, and it’s very structured
It allows you to really go deep
Sometimes it can look like drumming, dancing, and fire, but there is also a style of sitting in silence
There is a profound ethical foundation which is really important
All of the elements make for a really important container
In the traditional form, you do not touch anyone, unless there is a certain circumstance, and a prior consensual agreement, and waivers signed, etc
There have been issues of sexual abuse in the psychedelic realm, the Santo Daime takes many precautions against this
Churches
There are legal churches in the US through the Daime and the UDV (União do Vegetal)
The Daime has 5 churches that are explicitly legal
The government has decided not to pursue or prosecute Ayahuasca for those other churches
Someone tragically died at the Soul Quest Church, but it wasn’t related to ayahuasca
There are a lot of people that claim to be a part of a Native American church that are not
A lot of people reach out to Chacruna on how to become a part of the Native American Church to hold ceremonies, and it’s not easy, you almost have to already be a part of it, instead of just joining
Some people don’t like the word church, but it originates from the words ‘congregation’ and ‘assembly’
“The problem is the controlled substances act, that these things are illegal in the first place” – Rob
“The experience in all those settings is about community. The goal isn’t to have spiritual experiences, its to have a spiritual life” – Rob
Psychedelics and entheogens could be central to creating a new hub
It is possible to create psychedelic churches outside of the Santo Daime
The Ayahuasca tradition really uses the potential of group process
“How individual is the psychedelic experience, where you need some one-on-one work?” – Kyle
Psychedelic Liberty Summit
April 25-26 in San Francisco
Discount Code: PsychedelicsToday for 10% off at checkout
Rob Heffernan has been involved in the Peruvian curandero tradition and the Santo Daime for the last 16 years. He was a member and chairman of the North American Santo Daime Legal Committee for a number of years. He has been engaged in independent research and active in ad hoc groups promoting legal clarity and ethical integrity in the Ayahuasca Community. He is also a certified Integrative Sound and Music Practitioner; Shamanic Breath Work Facilitator; and a long time student and practitioner of Buddhist Dhamma. He has a BA in Communications and Social Studies from Fordham University, and works in the AV/IT communication industry.
In this episode, Joe interviews Clinical Psychologist, Alicia Danforth. In the show, they cover topics including how to get involved in the space, consent, research, MDMA, Autism and more.
3 Key Points:
Alicia Danforth is a Clinical Psychologist who will be having a talk on Ethical Challenges in Psychedelic Medicine at the ICPR Conference in the Netherlands, April 2020.
There is a possibility for MDMA to have a non-responder effect. No one has done research dedicated to why some people don’t react at all to MDMA.
Psychedelic science is very hard to talk about. We have the language of science that studies the psychopharmacological effects of drugs but no language that holds the effects of an altered state of consciousness yet.
Her path to her current place is such a random road that led her to where she is
She was going to burning man and getting into harm reduction when she realized the untapped value of psychedelics, its where her interest began
She began volunteering, doing administrative work for a doctor
She was offered to be a study coordinator
She got introduced to the power of psilocybin as a medicine, for dying cancer patients
The patients had a prognosis from 6 months to a year
To see how this state of consciousness helped people transition to the end of life so smoothly, that is what inspired her
5 months after she started working on the study, she got a cancer diagnosis
Getting Involved in the Space
Alicia would always get people approaching her about how to get in the field and she tells them “what field?”
Her Power Point making skills, are what technically got her involved in this field
“You never know what skill may be needed in this field” – Alicia
Alicia encourages people to look into their own collection of skills, and dig deep into that, find your niche, and then use that to contribute to the movement
Clinical therapists and psychologists are not the only people in this field We need accountants, marketers, etc
Consent
People start to get really religious around this field
Joe mentions a story where someone performed non-consensual reiki
Current Research
She is currently looking at why psychedelics appeal to people who typically like to abuse power
She did a talk at burning man about ‘coming down from the psychedelic power trip’
She tries to cite as many references and research as possible
Her talk at ICPR is going to be the very professional, version of that talk
Why are individuals who seek to abuse these tools so irresistibly drawn to psychedelics?
“If someone gets abused, and people say don’t come out about it because it’s not good for the movement, then what kind of movement is that?” – Joe
Empathogens
MDMA is known as an Empathogen
Can empathogens help people who are not empathetic, become empathetic?
Cohen’s D is the measure of effect size
Big pharma uses this all the time, to determine the effects of one drug compared to another
The Cohen’s D is how large that difference is
Non-response MDMA
There is a known, non-responder effect with MDMA
There was a few double-blind sessions, where the patient received MDMA, and they didn’t react, their vitals didn’t change
At the end, it was revealed that they truly received MDMA, and then even to be sure, they would do a blood test, and it showed up in the blood
No one has done research dedicated to why some people don’t react at all to MDMA
It’s probably common, that for people who are relying on MDMA to work as their last resort option and try it and not feel anything at all, to end their life afterward
Media and Support
It’s the most difficult thing in dealing with the media
When you are entirely dependent on funding, if you don’t talk about what you’re doing, then you can’t get funding at all
There is a crisis in science on the replicability on these studies
Joe says its cool to have these studies replicated outside of the US
“Psychedelic science is very hard to talk about due to the subjective nature of the psychedelic experience. We have the language of science that studies the psychopharmacological effects of drugs. There is no language that holds the effects of an altered state of consciousness yet.” – Alicia
The rapport that the patient and facilitator have, and the effect of that relationship, is a variable
Alicia received her doctorate in clinical psychology from the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto in 2013. Since 2006, she has worked in clinical research at the Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center on clinical studies for adults with anxiety related to advanced-stage cancer and with autistic adults who experience social anxiety. She is currently a lead clinician and supervisor for a clinical trial at UCSF for psychological distress in long-term survivors of HIV/AIDS. She is also certified in Trauma-Focused CBT and Focusing-Oriented Psychotherapy.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Mike Margolies of Psychedelic Seminars. In the show, they cover topics including guests and conversations from the Psychedelic Seminars, the decriminalization of all drugs, and the importance of allowing psychedelic use to be a part of training therapists for psychedelic therapy.
3 Key Points:
Psychedelic Seminars is an educational conversation series deepening awareness of the benefits, risks, and complexities of psychedelics.
There are large topics of decriminalizing psilocybin or the movements for ‘decriminalize nature’, but the conversation on decriminalization of all drugs is rare, which is what’s really important.
Some companies (MAPS for example) allow the option to use MDMA as a part of their therapist training program while other companies who are training therapists for psilocybin therapy, don’t have the option to use it. This leaves the question, “Should the psychedelic experience be part of the psychedelic therapy training?”
The talks were on microdosing and the unknowns of microdosing
Just because there is no real harms taking a large dose of LSD, doesn’t mean there aren’t any harms taking a low (micro) dose of LSD frequently
Mike thinks that the term Jim Fadiman uses is its ‘sub-perceptual’, in that you have a noticeable effect on the mood, but no other way of noticing it
Decriminalization
Drug Policy tends to stay in the realm of psychedelics only
There are large topics of decriminalizing psilocybin or the movements for ‘decriminalize nature’, but no one likes to talk about the decriminalization of all drugs, which is what’s really important
Poppy is not considered in decriminalize nature, which is selective nature decriminalization
It’s not a real decriminalization, it’s just a low priority for law enforcement
He’s been asking in his conversations, opinions on decriminalizing all drugs
Different drugs have different risk profiles
“Just because you’re not using criminal justice as your mechanism for reducing risks of drugs, doesn’t mean you do nothing. The last thing we want to do is add criminalization to those who are already suffering, this is why we should decriminalize all drugs” – Mike
Laws should be written in terms of what are you not allowed to do, not what you’re allowed to do
He is allowed to walk down the sidewalk, but not punch someone he walks past, but the law shouldn’t be to get a license for walking down the street so long as you don’t punch someone
The communities that are marginalized continue to be marginalized by the drug war
Psychedelic Therapy and Experience with Use
With MAPS, there is an option to do MDMA as a part of the training
With psilocybin, at least with Compass Pathways, there is not an option to use psilocybin. Mike says that’s a huge issue
When you scale treatment, there is the risk of losing the quality of care
“We aren’t going to solve the problems of our future by mass distributing psychedelics” – Mike
The fact that we have such mass amounts of widespread depression, means that we have a deeply ingrained systemic issue at hand
Psychedelics treat the symptoms, but we still need to fix the underlying cause
“If you are distributing psychedelics, but still exacerbating the same underlying issues, you now have the problem and solution in the same hefty package” – Mike
“Psychedelic experience is intrinsically something spiritual. How can you guide someone in spiritual practice if you haven’t experienced it yourself?” – Mike
“Inducing a state intentionally, and guiding someone through a process, its completely unethical to guide someone through a spiritual process that you haven’t been through yourself.” – Mike
New Economy
Burning man is not a barter economy, it’s a gift economy, where things are given without an expectation of receiving something in return
We are far from that economy
What if we had a world where instead of trying to extract value, we were trying to create value?
Since 2015, Mark has worked full-time in the psychedelic community, starting and contributing to a number of projects as an event and media producer, connector, and advisor. He is the Founder of Psychedelic Seminars, an educational conversation series deepening awareness of the benefits, risks, and complexities of psychedelics. On the PsychSems stage, he has interviewed a range of leaders including bestselling author Michael Pollan, Dr. James Fadiman and Ayelet Waldman on microdosing, and therapeutic ketamine expert Dr. Raquel Bennett. He started the project in 2015 after returning to his home city of Baltimore to build community for open and honest conversations about psychedelics. The project now operates primarily out of the San Francisco Bay Area and livestreams globally. Through his psychedelic community work in Baltimore, he seeded the Baltimore Psychedelic Society. He has sparked and mentored similar Psychedelic Societies around the world from Washington DC to San Francisco to Portugal. He helped start the Global Psychedelic Network to connect them.
Given the overall state of the world’s mental health, this research is sorely needed, and long-overdue. With the kind of success rates we’ve been seeing, with lasting relief sometimes from one or a few sessions, it’s reasonable to predict that these remarkable substances will play an increasingly important role in the treatment of many mental illnesses, and hopefully will also be sanctioned for safe use in other contexts, as well.
While their effectiveness is becoming more and more established, psychedelics’ “mechanism of action” is perplexing to many psychologists, particularly to believers in prevailing ideas about mental illness and treatment. They’re clearly working, but why or how are they working? What is the cognitive or neurological basis for their sometimes near-miraculous treatment success?
One thing that’s not yet being discussed enough is how the high success rate of psychedelic therapies can be seen as a challenge to dominant mainstream paradigms about psychiatric epidemiology (the study of what causes mental illnesses), particularly the reductionist biological chemical imbalance theory, and related ideas. While we’ve all heard psychedelics are working, the largely untold story is how the way they seem to work should cast doubt on prevailing theories of mental illness.
Reductionism in Psychology
Psychology today has become dominated by the idea that most common mental disorders, particularly mood disorders like depression, can be explained by reducing mental activity to things like chemical imbalances in the brain, a wrench in the neurochemical gears so-to-speak, which are generally more or less random and/or biologically predetermined. While the psychological sciences have acknowledged more recently that depression is more complex than that, the idea remains prevalent among psychiatrists, and the overall view of mental illness in general remains mechanical and biological.
In other words, scientific reductionism in psychology dominates the scene, and determines how mental illnesses are understood, and treated. Like the universe itself, according to philosophical materialism which many think of as “the scientific worldview”, mental illness is considered a random, meaningless occurrence, which is best controlled by adding new chemicals to the brain to offset the error, and perhaps implementing cognitive-behavioral changes through the efforts of the conscious, rational mind. We are biological robots in a meaningless universe, and mental illness is like a computer malfunctioning.
There are many reasons for objecting to biological reductionism in psychology, but the general idea is that a sizeable dissenting minority of psychologists believe reducing everything to brain chemistry and other scientifically measurable variables isn’t enough when it comes to understanding the human mind. Even in a purely materialistic universe, the inability to account for the role of emergent qualities in psychological health goes largely ignored, under this model. While this skepticism of the reduction of the psyche is a powerful intuition in itself, there are also good reasons for believing in the limitations of biopsychiatry on a rational basis, as well.
Psychology has a rich history of non-reductive theories which emerged from other types of methods of investigation, including the humanistic and depth psychology traditions, as well as transpersonal and contemplative approaches, to name a few. Could these now alternative theories of the mind help us understand the findings of the psychedelic renaissance; to go even further, could their legitimacy even be implied by psychedelic experiences, themselves?
These alternative perspectives often pertain to branches of psychology which recognize and deal with things outside the purview of biopsychiatry (meaning things that aren’t so easy to measure), and which aren’t taken seriously by materialism. These include phenomena such as the dynamic between the conscious and unconscious mind, and its importance to psychological well-being, and potentially transcendental components of the human psyche, or at least the importance of transcendental states of consciousness. Because they are difficult to measure and prove, all these are things which the biopsychiatry crowd usually relegates to the realm of pseudoscience, or speculative fancy, and denies their very existence.
Yet, in light of the therapeutic and transformative effect of psychedelics, these ousted theories do seem to be granted a rise in validity. This is not to say that the findings of cognitive neuroscience research into psychedelics are no longer relevant, but an honest assessment of the psychedelic experience in all it’s profound strangeness coupled with its therapeutic success should at least call reductive assumptions into question. If psychedelic experiencers and researchers observe the emergence of unconscious material, and mystical or other non-ordinary states of consciousness, and these seem to act almost like a miracle cure for many of our psychological ailments, why should we ignore what that implies about the ailments themselves?
Depths and Heights Encroaching
The problem (for reductive explanations) is that some of the findings of psychedelic research indicate that their unique action, which can sometimes bring almost overnight cures or at least long-lasting one-time treatments, may pertain to both the emergence of psychological content from the unconscious mind, and also their ability to take people to the heights of human mystical experience. Most people who have encountered psychedelics in culture know of the profound realizations or otherworldly qualities they’re said to have, and in the lab, they are not so different. What’s surprising to those totally disconnected from the very idea of spirituality is that they work so well.
It’s not uncommon to hear recipients of psychedelic therapy say things like, “It was like years of therapy in one night,” or therapists reporting that “Miracles are becoming — not mundane, but pretty normal around here.” Since psychedelics are being found to accelerate psychotherapy by allowing people to discover underlying issues which had been inaccessible to normal therapeutic practices, this arguably implies that there are unconscious elements that influence and perhaps cause mental illnesses, a view long held by depth psychology known as psychodynamics.
Although the unconscious is not necessarily outright rejected by all cognitive scientists, some of whom have proposed a more reductive “New Unconscious”, it has generally been rebuked or deemphasized by the more science-oriented modern trend in psychiatry. The subjective psychedelic experiences of therapy recipients where unconscious material seems to be brought to the surface of consciousness, therefore, calls this rejection into question and deserves further investigation. This is compounded when some neuroscience indicates the validity of psychodynamic models, as well.
While psychedelics’ effects on the unconscious psychodynamics are only slightly explored in the literature, psychedelic mystical experience is a far more heavily researched topic, and its long-lasting psychological benefits have been a central point of the larger discourse around psychedelic research since the time of the Good Friday experiment, in 1962. Some have noted that the benefits of psychedelic mystical experience may relate to their ability to enhance the perception of meaning, another area where science remains agnostic beyond questionnaire measurements. The phenomenon of ego dissolution, where a person’s sense of self is temporarily obliterated to be born anew like a phoenix, also seems to be a major part of what creates these transformative effects.
Tracing from Cure to Cause
Although we typically approach illness by first investigating its cause and then using that knowledge to find its treatment, it is possible to do the reverse, when effective treatments already exist. We can learn more about the cause of a problem through what treats it best; in this case, a better understanding of the epidemiology of mental disorders may be derived from the very fact that the psychedelic experience treats or resolves them better than other methods, and this is most pointedly true in the case of depression.
The negative implications of psychedelics’ success for the chemical imbalance theory of depression aren’t difficult to see. Conventional biopsychiatry wisdom says that depression is a random chemical imbalance, although in more recent years they have broadened it to include “caused by a combination of genetic, biological, environmental, and psychological factors. (NIMH)” The ability of psychedelic mystical experiences to drastically improve or even cure depression, potentially by enhancing meaning, should be a clue that depression may have causes which are simply difficult to measure, and therefore not amenable to a scientific definition.
For instance, some have proposed that a major part of the epidemic of depression is something deeper than a mere chemical imbalance, but is instead a side-effect of a cultural swing towards the philosophy of materialism. Of course, many deny this connection, or even that materialism is inherently depressing, but it’s hard not to see this as straw-grasping. You don’t have to have a doctorate in philosophy to recognize that scientific materialism is dreary, as it basically tells us that we are little more than dust in the wind of a meaningless, purposeless, cold and cruel universe. To deny the inherent bleakness of this perspective is an exercise in futility; I won’t belabor the point here. What’s worse, this is now put forward as the intellectually orthodox worldview.
Naturally, this is not to say that scientific materialism and its intrinsic nihilism are the only reason that people get depressed; no doubt, various factors like economic disparity and poverty, political chaos, childhood development issues, and trauma play a huge part. Regardless, the fact that psychedelic experiences both help with depression and tend to make people more spiritually-minded should give the bio-centric psychiatrists pause. Just because it’s difficult to measure or explain, is it really so hard to see how psychedelics’ ability to show that we might be more than just space dust successfully treats people’s depression, and that this might shed light on a major cause or contributor to the disease itself?
A War of Ideas On the Battlefield of the Mind, and It’s Casualties
The point of critiquing reductionism in psychology is not that we should leave the psychiatric sciences behind us, but rather that a pluralism of methodologies and theoretical approaches have their place, in our quest to understand and heal the human mind. Measuring the activity and chemical levels of the brain during mental illness, or during the psychedelic experiences that seem to treat them, need not lessen or replace other theoretical systems, but instead can supplement them. It doesn’t have to be either/or.
This seems like a fairly pragmatic, diplomatic, and agreeable assessment, but unfortunately, psychology has become a casualty to a much larger ideological war of scientism against all things immeasurable. Psychology is merely one domain, one battlefield in this philosophical conquest, but a critically important one because so much of our suffering or well-being hinges on our having the best understanding of the human mind we can achieve.
One result of this parsing out of anything that can’t be scanned, measured, or repeated in a lab is that the default treatment for mental disorders has become (conveniently for pharmaceutical giants) psychoactive daily medications like antidepressants. We have reached a point in psychiatry where the central goal is essentially to chemically engineer the population’s neuro-soup, until all can be productive members of society, ideally in a way that is highly profitable. The fact that antidepressants aren’t really working comes as no surprise to those who never believed in the adequacy of biopsychiatry, in the first place.
While many seek refuge from guilt or blame in the biological definition of their mental illness, the reality is that understanding our illnesses to be more than just random neurochemical accidents, but perhaps fragmentations or distortions of the psyche which can be healed, can replace biological fatalism and reliance on daily doses of Xanax with hope and progress towards restored mental health. Psychedelics can help us make great leaps towards that brighter future, once we recognize and integrate the things they are showing us, and let go of our outdated ideological assumptions.
About the Author
Jonathan Dinsmore is a writer and digital freelancer with a degree in psychology, and a passion for all things philosophy, science, spirituality, and psychedelics.
Dr. Carl Hart is neuropsychopharmacologist and Chair of Columbia University’s Department of Psychology. His research, which focuses on the behavioral and neuropsychological effects of psychoactive drugs in humans, has been published widely in academic journals, and Dr. Hart has discussed his research on numerous shows including Democracy Now!, The O’Reilly Factor, and The Joe Rogan Experience. His award-winning memoir, High Price: A Neuroscientist’s Journey of Self-Discovery That Challenges Everything You Know About Drugs and Society, charts Dr. Hart’s journey from childhood in a harsh Miami neighborhood to an academic life devoted to reframing society’s biased and harmful narratives around stigmatized drugs.
At the 2019 Psychedelic Science Summit in Austin, TX, Dr. Hart addressed a crowd of psychedelic enthusiasts about concerning language he’s noticed in psychedelic-focused conversations. In this interview, Dr. Hart explains how these narratives create a “psychedelic exceptionalism” that perpetuates harmful narratives around drugs like heroin, methamphetamine, and crack cocaine, by extension demonizing people who choose to use such substances. In these transitional times, Dr. Hart reminds us of the importance to hold healthy criticism while always maintaining focus as humanitarians.
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Sean Lawlor: In your speech, you were less gung-ho about this psychedelic renaissance than other people. This was partly due to something called “psychedelic exceptionalism.” Can you speak about this?
Carl Hart: This term refers to the perspective that psychedelics are somehow better and more useful than other classes of drugs like opioids or stimulants. I was just trying to remind people that these are all psychoactive substances. They interact on receptors in the brain to produce their effects, and we shouldn’t be treating some drugs as if they’re special while other drugs are somehow evil. Drugs all carry some risk, and depending on how you define danger, they fall on different levels of the spectrum of risk, and benefits.
Sean Lawlor: So, you’re responding to seeing people glorifying psychedelics while continuing to demonize substances that have been demonized since the War on Drugs, if not before?
Carl Hart: That’s exactly it. It’s great to be enthusiastic about your drug of choice. But remember not to vilify other drugs. That puts people at risk, and it marginalizes people. I don’t think anybody really wants to do that.
Sean Lawlor: Can you say more about how that puts people at risk?
Carl Hart: When people talk about heroin being evil or dangerous in generalized ways, it stigmatizes that drug and, by extension, people who use that drug. Then, we have increased penalties, and we view those people as being defective for even using that drug.
Sean Lawlor: A way of “othering” those people, putting them in a negative box.
Carl Hart: That’s right. We did that with crack, and we did that with that methamphetamine. But you look at MDMA versus methamphetamine, and the chemical structures are not that different. But we have wildly different narratives about them. It’s just not warranted.
Sean Lawlor: What do you see as the roots of this exceptionalism?
Carl Hart: I think people think that they’re being strategic. Folks who want to increase the availability of psychedelics for medicinal reasons, for recreation — I think they feel that if they associate with stigmatized drugs, then that stigmatizes their drug of choice. They’re playing a political game, a numbers game — you could say they’re calculating this. But there are people who are really suffering, who don’t have a choice to calculate, and no one’s given us the right to play with people’s lives based on politics. What’s wrong is wrong, what’s right is right, and it’s wrong to vilify drugs and people. No matter what.
That’s why I try to keep the focus on doing what’s right as a human being, as a humanitarian. It’s just wrong to vilify people for wanting to alter their consciousness and the particular drug that they use, especially when you’re doing the same thing with another drug. That’s just inconsistent with respecting other people’s humanity.
Sean Lawlor: I think a lot of people have seen friends and family die from opiates. You talk about how these deaths may be due to what they’re getting, how much fentanyl may be in there, etc. But if someone’s caught in cycles of addiction with drugs that have a higher overdose potential than, say, mushrooms, and a high dose of mushrooms could allow them to work on deeper issues fueling addictive cycles, how could that drug not be seen as more healing?
Carl Hart: Because there are all kinds of assumptions with that question that are flawed. First of all, it’s not up to me to decide what people choose to work on and what drug they use. If they choose heroin as opposed to mushrooms, that’s cool. That’s their decision as autonomous adults. And if we think heroin is uniquely more dangerous than mushrooms — well, if we’re talking about respiratory depression, yes, it certainly can be. But if we’re talking about paranoia at large doses, mushrooms are more dangerous.
When we look at the Swiss situation, with a regulated supply of heroin and all sorts of services, you don’t have the problems of overdose that we see in this country. So it’s not the drug. It’s the conditions under which the drug is being administered.
Now, we do have people in our country who are dying from heroin or opioid-related overdoses. That’s a fact. But that has more to do with the stigma and the social conditions under which the drug is being taken. I am wholeheartedly in support of dealing with those issues, which are not that complicated. We could have a regulated supply of heroin. We could check the mixture to verify that people don’t have an adulterated drug. With mushrooms, you’re less likely to have adulterants in your compounds than you are with opioids. That’s a problem, but not of the opioid itself. That’s a problem of our supply.
Sean Lawlor: How about the problem of what’s underlying people’s addictions in general?
Carl Hart: That’s a whole different issue, that we have to figure out why people are addicted. People are addicted for a variety of reasons — and when I say “addiction,” I mean the DSM criteria for substance use. Those criteria have to do with people’s inability to inhibit, their lack of responsibility skills, or the conditions under which these drugs are available or not available. It has more to do with all of those things than, again, the drug itself.
It’s true that opioids can produce a physical dependence, whereas other drugs are less likely to. But alcohol can produce a physical dependence that is deadly, and we do alcohol relatively well in this country. There are people who have problems with alcohol, but the vast majority of folks don’t. So, alcohol will remain legal.
Whether it’s a drug or an activity like driving a car, people can and will get in trouble. It’s crazy to think we’re somehow going to prevent all negative possible outcomes of some activity. We can certainly take steps to minimize it. And we do. And we could do the same thing with drugs like heroin.
Sean Lawlor: You said something during a panel that elicited a strong response. I believe your quote was, “Heroin made me a better person.” I’m curious what that meant.
Carl Hart: I don’t remember the context that I was saying that. But the point I was trying to make is simple. We have alcohol at receptions, for example, where alcohol functions as a social lubricant. The same can be true with a drug like heroin.
Many of these psychoactive substances people use make them less anxious, more magnanimous — all of these kinds of things. That’s not a shocking statement. It’s only shocking for people infected with the Puritanism virus. Anybody who knows anything about drug use, particularly with opioids, knows they can enhance positive social interactions, and that’s why many people take them.
Sean Lawlor: You’ve said that only 25% of people who use heroin are addicted, which is different than the instant-addiction cultural narrative we’ve inherited.
Carl Hart: Yeah. But still, you don’t want people to become addicted. And when I say addicted, I mean the DSM criteria, not just physical dependence. People who take antidepressants, for example, have physical dependency. They can’t abruptly stop after taking antidepressants for a number of years. They have to be weaned off. The same is true with opioids. So when I say “addiction,” I mean that the person is distressed by their drug use and the consequences of their drug use, and they have disruptions in psychosocial functioning.
That 25% still concerns me. But I think it has to do with the stigma associated with heroin. People have to hide their use and engage in tremendous risk because of how society sees heroin. In places like Switzerland, where heroin is available medically, you don’t see people engaging in disruptive behaviors to get it. They just go to the clinic and they get their daily doses. In many cases, these people work. They’re responsible members of society.
Sean Lawlor: If there’s a psychedelic correlate to these trends, I’d say it’s LSD. Microdosing is popular, but LSD carries the heaviest social stigma of any psychedelic. I hear far less people speak publicly about their use of it than mushrooms and MDMA, which have essentially been adopted as “good.” And LSD often appears at festivals, where you don’t know what you’re getting, and really bad stuff can happen.
Carl Hart: Exactly. You hit it on the head. We see that with all stigmatized drugs. People are more likely to take risks that decrease their likelihood of getting the drug they’re seeking, because people can replace them with more potent drugs. And that could be dangerous.
Sean Lawlor: Do you see any effort in this psychedelic community to combat psychedelic exceptionalism?
Carl Hart: I have to tell you, I’m always disturbed when people identify themselves as a “psychedelic community.” That seems fucking bizarre to me. When you have all of these psychoactive substances, and people are taking them for similar reasons of altering consciousness, and then you have a line — these drugs over here, these drugs over here — I just find it bizarre that people would even identify as such a thing.
Sean Lawlor: Have you noticed that delineation more than me saying it right now?
Carl Hart: Oh, yeah. I didn’t mean — you’re absolutely right. I’m just saying as a neuropsychopharmacologist, as somebody who’s interested in consciousness and having your consciousness altered by these substances, it just seems strange that people would have the audacity to include themselves in a single sort of community that delineates its boundaries in a way that excludes other people doing the same thing.
Sean Lawlor: Yeah, that very language is a kind of exceptionalism, aligning with a “community” that uses drugs that are becoming less stigmatized and more popular.
Carl Hart: Yeah. It’s very disturbing. It’s just inconsistent with being a humanitarian.
Sean Lawlor: I’m thinking about how the War on Drugs set regulations in place that have disproportionately affected people from particular areas or particular races who tend to associate with particular drugs, and how that’s created, institutional divisions.
Carl Hart: But it’s not necessarily the laws. It’s the enforcement of the laws. The laws can be enforced in a way that hits across the various dimensions of society. But the laws are not enforced in that way. The enforcement of the laws seems to focus on specific communities of color, so enforcement is the problem.
My expertise is in drugs, so I focus on that. But this is not unique to drug law enforcement. This is how we behave in this country in general. That’s why I try to help people to understand how their verbal behavior about one compound versus another contributes to a misperception that allows for disproportionate enforcement of the drug laws.
Sean Lawlor: What is your parting advice for people invested in this psychedelic renaissance?
Carl Hart: I would ask that people think about the language they’re using for substances they like versus their language for substances that have been vilified. I ask that people think about the narratives that have been built around crack cocaine and heroin versus the narratives built around drugs like psilocybin and MDMA, and how wildly they conflict. Whether people are using heroin or MDMA, they’re seeking to alter their consciousness. They’re seeking intimacy with partners. They’re seeking the same things.
Sean Lawlor: Thank you for your time, Dr. Hart. I figured some biases and assumptions would come through my questions, but hopefully representing them here can help dismantle them for others who read it.
Carl Hart: I hope so. Thank you for doing this. And if you just remind people to think about other people’s humanity in the same way they think about their own, this won’t be an issue. If they think of people as being equal to them, this is not a problem. We all make mistakes, and that’s fine. But once you remember that no matter who you’re dealing with, they’re another person who deserves the same kind of respect you deserve, then it becomes easy.
About the Author
Sean Lawlor is a writer, certified personal trainer, and Masters student in Transpersonal Counseling at Naropa University, in pursuit of a career in psychedelic journalism, research, and therapy. His interest in consciousness and non-ordinary states owes great debt to Aldous Huxley, Ken Kesey, and Hunter S. Thompson, and his passion for film, literature, and dreaming draws endless inspiration from Carl Jung, David Lynch, and J.K. Rowling. For more information or to get in touch, head to seanplawlor.com, or connect on Instagram @seanplawlor.
In this Episode, Kyle sits down with Elizabeth Nielson and Ingmar Gorman, Co-founders of Fluence, Training in Psychedelic Integration. They are both therapists on the MAPS clinical trial for MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD.
3 Key Points:
1. Elizabeth and Ingmar are co-founders of Fluence, a Psychedelic Integration Training program.
2. If psychedelic treatments become available more widely, the fear is that therapists won’t be as educated on how to handle their patient interactions based on the behavior of each psychedelic. Psychedelic Integration Therapy Training is so important.
3. It’s important for the wider public to understand how psychedelics work in order to anticipate some of the variety of patient reactions after psychedelic therapy.
He is a Co-Principal Investigator for the MAPS MDMA/PTSD trial
He is a Psychologist and the Co-founder of Fluence
He trains mental health professionals in psychedelic integration
About Elizabeth
Elizabeth is a Psychologist and Co-founder of Fluence
She has worked on clinical trials using MDMA and clinical trials using Psilocybin
She trains mental health professionals in psychedelic integration
The Trial
The approval of expanded access by the FDA includes 50 people in total for now
They are near the end of MAPP 1 (out of MAPP1 and MAPP2)
There are 3 phases
Phase 1 addresses the safety of a drug in humans
Phase 2 is where you begin to test your treatment in a specified patient population
Phase 3 is where you get the data to demonstrate efficacy in a larger population pre-approval
They are done as a double-blind trial, both the therapist and patient don’t know if the patient is receiving the treatment or now
Takeaways
There is a lot of information that has to be shared effectively
The therapists are very much aware of the participant’s lives, just just administering MDMA
Instead of learning from the trials of what to do on a practical level, its about inspiring them to bring this as an actual treatment for people
The multiple ways that PTSD can manifest and look like, and the may ways that MDMA can look like when administered, have some commonalities
The deepening, the broadening, the way they communicate, can all be the same
Ingmar holds the belief in the inner healing intelligence of all people
One of the first things he does when he begins with a new patient, he says that this is something he really believes in, and his role as a therapist to help them in their own healing process
What Elizabeth wanted to learn, know and practice while she was going through school, isn’t what she she thought it was until she found it
She says this work really requires them to trust people’s autonomy and experiences
There is something that they tell their patients, “Don’t get ahead of the medicine” – Elizabeth
There is an interesting paradox between not knowing and following intuition, to having an actual method and following that
There is a sweet spot between following a script to following your intuition as a therapist
You want to trust that inner healer process of the patient, but also need to know when to intervene (usually from a safety standpoint)
Fluence
3 days after Horizons, Elizabeth was at home with a cold, and talked to Ingmar that morning curious for a name for the project
Fluence means, magical or mystical power or source of power
It can also refer to the density of particles of energy in a given area
They teach about harm reduction and integration to mental health providers
They aren’t teaching psychedelic therapy protocols in the workshops
An important part of integration is mindfulness
Ingmar’s biggest influence are his clients and patients, he is inspired by them
A large piece of the motivation for creating Fluence is from patients just looking for someone to talk about their experience with
The Why
A mother whose teenage daughter with depression, reached out to Ingmar with trouble trying to treat her daughter’s depression
The family decided it would be a good idea to use Ketamine therapy, which was successful
She was doing well and went to her regular therapist to integrate it The therapist that she went to then instead of responding positively, decided to fire the teenager from further therapy, and reported the parents to child protective services for providing ketamine therapy
Ingmar says their position is not that everyone needs psychedelic integration therapy, its specifically for those that don’t feel supported by family or community, and it gives them a professional service as an option
“Psychedelics are not 10 years of change in one night, they are 10 years of insight in one night. integration is so important.” – Elizabeth
The goal is to support people in making a change that feels safe and right for them
If the treatments become available more widely, the fear is that therapists won’t be as educated on how to handle their patient interactions based on the behavior of each psychedelic
Mental health practitioners can be a great source for working through those experiences
Menla Training
They could really take their time with the process and training
The trainings that they had gone led has made their Fluence courses better
In 2019 they had 5 of the trainings for clinicians, and the trainings will be better and better as they go
Ketamine Infusion Therapy
The experience is not dose dependent
The purpose of the workshop is to educate both therapists and doctors about what can happen in ketamine treatment
Dr. Elizabeth Nielson is a co-founder of Fluence and a psychologist with a focus on developing psychedelic medicines as empirically supported treatments for PTSD, substance use problems, and mood disorders. Dr. Nielson is a therapist on FDA approved clinical trials of psilocybin-assisted treatment of alcohol use disorder, MDMA-assisted treatment PTSD, and psilocybin-assisted treatment of treatment resistant depression. Through Fluence, she provides continuing education and training programs for therapists who wish to engage in integration of psychedelic experiences in clinical settings. Her program of research includes qualitative and mixed-methods projects designed to further understand the phenomenology and mechanisms of change in psychedelic-assisted therapy, including the experiences of trial participants and of the therapists themselves. Having completed an NIH postdoctoral fellowship at NYU, she has published and presented on topics of psychedelic therapist training, therapists’ personal experience with psychedelics, and including psychedelic integration in group and individual psychotherapy.
About Ingmar
Dr. Ingmar Gorman is a co-founder of Fluence and a psychologist who specializes in assisting populations who have a relationship with psychedelics. He is the site co-principal investigator and therapist on a Phase 3 clinical trial studying MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for post-traumatic stress disorder. Dr. Gorman is a board member of Horizons Media, Inc., a not for-profit educational charity and organizer of the Horizons Conference: Perspectives on Psychedelics. After completing his NIH postdoctoral fellowship at New York University, Dr. Gorman stepped down as director of the Psychedelic Education and Continuing Care Program to focus his efforts on Fluence and the training of future therapists.
In this episode, Joe interviews Jon S. on his experience in the psilocybin-assisted trials for alcohol dependency at NYU. In the show, they dive into Jon’s background and how psilocybin assisted therapy helped him out of his alcohol dependence and into a new life.
3 Key Points:
Jon participated in the NYU Double-Blind Trial of Psilocybin-Assisted Treatment of Alcohol Dependence.
The study was double-blind. In each session, he didn’t know if he was going to receive psilocybin or Benadryl.
The sessions helped him so much with this dependence on alcohol, he believes he is a better father, husband, and human overall. He hasn’t had a drink in 5 months (or a desire to).
He spent a lot of his life DJing, so he has spent a lot of time around alcohol
He found out about a psychedelic therapy study at NYU from someone at a Holotropic Breathwork Retreat
The study took place in New York City
He had always wanted to explore the psychedelic side of things
He read Michael Pollan’s book and it said in the book that the Holotropic Breathwork community would be a great group to help find a guide
The Trial
In his assessment, he found out truly how much he was drinking
He would crack a beer before even playing with his kids
He was into craft beer and at 8% a beer, his 3 beers were more like 5
He was asked to not have his sessions recorded so he could be as open as he could be
The session was very focused on curbing drinking
His wife knew he was going down the path of psychedelic healing
“I’m not doing this to have a good time, I’m doing this to be a better person” – Jon
His trial was double-blind
He was never told when he was receiving the psilocybin at each session
He was told that he was either going to get 1 or 3 doses in the trial
The First Session
The first session with the eye shades on (on psilocybin), was very visual
In that first session he kept seeing this pirate ship underwater
His sons would say “come on daddy, lets play on the pirate ship”
He would go to the pirate ship with his sons and then say “I need to go back down and do some work”, and he would swim back into the depths
He came home that day, and his youngest son greeted him at the door, and said let’s play power rangers, I’ll be the red power ranger and you be the pirate
It hit him in a float tank session, the message of that session was to play with his sons more
He had a moment in his first session of rebirth
Integration
There is a 2 hour integration session the very next day
He didn’t think it was going to be as important as it turned out to be
He had the choice to keep it at the same dose or up it
He upped the dose to 40mg instead of 25mg
He was told his second session wouldn’t be anything like his first
The medicine was so intense the second time, he couldn’t even remember the music
In his second session, he saw a body being chopped up (realizing it was his body)
He realized that he was one with the universe, love is the only thing that matters
He wanted to be a part of everything
He was compensated about $100 per session
“When the university gives you financial compensation, you buy everyone in the ice cream shop ice cream” – Jon
Jon says he has a new baseline for anxiety
He never thought he had anxiety, but after his sessions, he found that he is way less anxious than he was, even though he really wasn’t
He didn’t have a desire to drink, he hasn’t had a drink in 5 months
He has never felt better or happier
He’s a much better dad, and husband
Life After the Experience
He is re-reading Aldous Huxley and is finding a whole new meaning to it all
He is spending more time with his family and being present with the
He spends a ton of time with his kids now
Stuff that used to worry him, doesn’t worry him anymore
His experience was everything he hoped for and more
He genuinely believes, that whatever he got out of a session, is what he needed
Final Thoughts
He is talking to the Decrim Nature in NY
He appreciates the platform (Psychedelics Today) for the space to talk about his experience
He appreciates everyone at NYU for the work they are doing
Modern neuroscience has demonstrated that psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, as well as ayahuasca operate to significantly reduce activity in the brain’s default mode network (DMN). This reduction in DMN activity functions as a kind of ‘rebooting’ of the brain, and is thought to be linked to one of the most enduring therapeutic effects of psychedelic substances.
What is the Default Mode Network?
The default mode network refers to an interconnected group of brain regions that are associated with introspective functions, internally directed thought, such as self-reflection, and self-criticism. Increased activity of the DMN is correlated with the experience of mind-wandering and our capacity to imagine mental states in others (i.e. theory of mind) as well as our ability to mentally “time travel”, projecting ourselves into the past or future.
The functioning of the DMN is considered essential to normal, everyday consciousness and is at its most active when a person is in a resting state and their attention is not externally directed on a worldly task or stimulus. For example, if you put somebody in an MRI scanner and don’t give them anything to do, their mind will start wandering and you will see the regions that make up the DMN light up.
The functional connections that make up the DMN increase from birth to adulthood, with the DMN not being fully active until later in a child’s development, emerging around the age of five as the child develops a stable sense of narrative self or “ego.”
As we mature, we learn to respond to life’s stimuli in a patterned way, developing habitual pathways of communication between brain regions, particularly those of the DMN. Over time, communication becomes confined to specific pathways, meaning that our brain becomes more ‘constrained’ as we develop. It is these constrained paths of communication between brain regions that quite literally come to constitute our ‘default mode’ of operating in the world, coloring the way we perceive reality.
Evolutionarily speaking, it has been hypothesized that the DMN plays a major role in our survival, helping us form a continuous sense of self, differentiating ourselves from the world around us. The DMN has been described by psychiatrist Matthew Brown as the part of the brain which serves to “remind you that you are you.”
Overactivity of the Default Mode Network & Mental Health Conditions
The DMN has been found to be particularly overactive in certain mental health conditions, such as depression, anxiety, and OCD. Matthew Brown likens DMN overactivity to experiences of “hypercriticality”, “rigid thought patterns”, and “automatic negative thought loops” about oneself.
Imagine that you are at a party, telling a joke that gets met with an awkward silence. Initially, people might think “Oh no, that wasn’t so funny,” but they tend to quickly move on to the next leg of the conversation, forgetting about it entirely. However, you go home that evening, finding yourself completely unable to sleep because you are wrought with worry about the bad joke you told, what a fool you appeared to be, and how others might be judging you harshly for it. This is a classic example of DMN overactivity and the negative thought patterns which tend to be visible in people who suffer from depression, anxiety, and OCD.
How Do Psychedelics Affect the Default Mode Network?
Psychiatric doctor and ayahuasca researcher Simon Ruffell likens the effects of psychedelics on the DMN to “defragmenting a computer.” When you ingest a psychedelic, activity of the DMN is significantly decreased whilst connectivity in the rest of the brain increases.
“Brain imaging studies suggest that when psychedelics are absorbed they decrease activity in the default mode network. As a result the sense of self appears to temporarily shut down, and thus ruminations may decrease. The brain states observed show similarities to deep meditative states, in which increased activity occurs in pathways that do not normally communicate. This process has been compared to defragmenting a computer. Following this, it appears that the default mode network becomes more cohesive. We think this could be one of the reasons levels of anxiety and depression appear to reduce.”
Dr. Simon Ruffell, Psychiatrist and Senior Research Associate at King’s College London
Due to psychedelics’ ability to disrupt the activity of the DMN, they have a particularly strong therapeutic potential when it comes to changing negative thought patterns. For example, a study by Imperial College London assessed the impact of psilocybin-assisted therapy on twelve patients with severe depression. Results demonstrated that psilocybin-assisted therapy was able to dramatically reduce their depression scores for a period of up to three months.
A follow-up study suggested that the therapeutic impact of psilocybin was linked to its ability to ‘reset’ the DMN, turning it off and reconsolidating it in a way that is a little less rigid than before.
In general, it has been shown that psychedelics produce increases in psychological flexibility, positing another explanation for why we see decreases in depression and anxiety following a psychedelic experience. Based on what we know about the DMN, we could hypothesize that it plays an influential role in one’s ability to be psychologically flexible.
Matthew Brown gave an analogy for how psychedelics are able to reset the DMN, enabling an increased sense of psychological flexibility:
“If you do the same thing repeatedly, it is like you are walking down the same path all the time. Naturally, that path becomes very well worn and easy to walk down. However, you realize that maybe there is another path that might be more advantageous for you and you want to try walking down that path. Psychedelics ‘mow the lawn’ so that it doesn’t seem that the weeds are quite so high and you can walk down that new path a little bit more easily.”
Entropic Brain Theory & The Reducing Valve
Psychedelics tend to disrupt the activity of the DMN, temporarily disintegrating the highly organized system of networks that it is made up of, allowing for “less ordered neurodynamics”, and a greater degree of entropy within the brain. That is to say that open, freer conversations begin to take place between brain regions that are normally kept separate.
According to the ‘entropic brain’ theory, the state of consciousness associated with psychedelics is comparable to that which exists in early childhood – we experience awe and wonder, looking at everything in the world around us as wholly novel.
These findings are in line with writer and philosopher Aldous Huxley’s early reflections on the psychedelic experience, in which he described psychedelic consciousness as “Mind at Large” in that it grants us access to a larger set of brain functions, allowing us to tap into an unbounded state of consciousness which extends beyond the individual and into the collective. He theorized that in order “to make biological survival possible, Mind at Large has to be funneled through the reducing valve of the brain and nervous system.”
In this case, we can think of the “reducing valve” as a metaphor for the DMN which in some sense serves “to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, […] and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful.”
This self-guided class investigates the history, science, and best practices for safe and effective microdosing; hosted by Adam Bramlage, founder of Flow State Micro, Dr. James Fadiman, the “father of modern microdosing,” and a dozen expert guest faculty. Enroll today!
The Default Mode Network & Ego Death
In 2016, a breakthrough study by Imperial College London used a combination of neuroimaging techniques to measure electrical activity and experiential reports from participants to investigate the link between brain activity and reported psychological responses to LSD in twenty volunteers.
Results demonstrated that LSD dampens the function of the DMN, and that this decrease in activity strongly correlated with the subjective experience of “ego dissolution” or “ego death”, indicating that the DMN performs a vital part in sustaining the “ego” or “self.”
Similarly, researchers at Johns Hopkins University published a pioneering study, demonstrating that psilocybin is able to produce mystical-type experiences in participants, such as the experience of ego death. These experiences were considered to be deeply meaningful by participants and were seen to elicit sustained positive changes in attitude and behaviour.
Generally, it’s our ego – our sense of “I” – that tends to create and harbor negative thought patterns. In conditions such as depression and anxiety, we become self-absorbed, narrowly focused on thoughts about ourselves, unable to take a step back and see the bigger picture. The ego erects boundaries that can lead to us feeling isolated from the people around us, disconnected from nature and even ourselves.
In a state of ego dissolution, these boundaries are let down and a great “zooming out” takes place where you begin to see things on a macroscopic level. You are no longer an individual isolated from life as it takes place around you, but rather you are interconnected with everything through the web of life. It is not a logical, but rather a felt experience of incredible love and reconnection.
When asked about the therapeutic implications of having an experience like ego dissolution, Matthew Brown explained that it can be tremendously healing as our consciousness is able to extend itself beyond the confines of our individual experience, and become one with nature’s larger whole.
“You realize that you are extremely insignificant, and perhaps that sounds defeating. However, it can be very freeing to realize that you are just one human who is existing for a very small blip of time in the grand scheme of the universe.” — Dr. Matthew Brown, DO, MBA, ABPN, Child, Adolescent, Adult Psychiatry
It is important to note that although experiences of ego death can lead to deep personal insight, and thus have therapeutic benefits, they can also be terrifying. Author of Changing our Minds, Don Lattin reminds us that ego death can be a “fearful and/or enlightening experience” that “depends in large part on whether mind travelers are ready for the journey, what baggage they bring along, and who’s accompanying them.”
Perhaps what is most interesting about the ego death experience, and the temporary rewiring of the brain enabled by psychedelics, is the long-lasting, enduring therapeutic effects that remain beyond the temporality of the drug. The resetting of the DMN combined with the powerful experience of ego death induced by psychedelics are often described as amongst the most meaningful of experiences in a person’s life. Such experiences help us to break free from negative thought patterns, become more psychologically flexible as well as dissolve the barriers between ourselves and the world around us, realizing our place in the interconnected web of life.
About the Author
Jasmine Virdi is a freelance writer, editor, and proofreader. She currently works for the fiercely independent publishing company Synergetic Press, where her passions for ecology, ethnobotany and psychoactive substances converge. Jasmine’s goal as an advocate for psychoactive substances is to raise awareness of the socio-historical context in which these substances emerged in order to help integrate them into our modern-day lives in a safe, grounded and meaningful way.
In this episode, Joe interviews Joost Breeksema from the Netherlands to talk about the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. In the show they cover topics on ICPR 2020, and the importance of accessibility.
3 Key Points:
The Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research takes place April 24-26, 2020 in the Netherlands.
It’s important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use at conferences.
Although this conference will be catered toward mainstream science and research, personal experiences and stories are important too.
Nobody before was doing research on psychedelics in the Netherlands
William James work sparked Joost’s interest in psychedelics
ICPR
Starting with the OPEN Foundation, the conference has been very scientific
It is interdisciplinary, but also taken very seriously
This field is so broad, you could really never get bored
Wade Davis, Alicia Danforth, Matt Johnson and more will be speaking at the conference
There will be over 80 speakers
Joost expects it to be a pretty international conference, half local, and half from abroad
Psychiatrists are usually short on time, and they like things compressed more
It’s really easy and cheap to grow psilocybin as mushrooms or truffles
Even in Mexico, they need to use GMP Psilocybin
Accessibility
“If this is going to be the treatment, how are we going to help people afford it?” – Joe
There is some tricky stuff happening, companies trying to patent different parts of psilocybin to use it for therapeutic use
Ketamine has been off patent for years, but you can develop a new route of administration, patent that, and make a ton of money
Spravato is making it to the UK
Conference Themes
Joost is both excited and scared that they are bringing indigenous practitioners to the conference
It’s important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use
Talking about concepts and approaches to healing is going to be an important aspect
The goal would be to do research with the indigenous communities to be able to address the needs of psychedelic use
There are also a few neuroimaging people coming
For mainstream scientists, the conference has to be as close to a scientific conference as possible, they may be turned off to the cultural aspects of psychedelics
It’s the conservative nature of psychedelia
Joost also says that although the scientific research is important, it is really cool to hear the personal experiences
Joost Breeksema is a part of the OPEN Foundation, which from it came the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. His current research focuses on the experiences of patients that are undergoing therapy assisted by psychedelic substances. His aim is to better understand psychological mechanisms of action/change, to tease out salient themes, and finally to learn about what works and what does not work in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.
In this episode, Kyle invites a guest interviewer, Hallie Rose of the Thought Room Podcast, to interview him on his recent experience at Soltara. In the show, they talk about Soltara, Kyle’s experience with the plant medicine, and important topics like privilege.
3 Key Points:
Integration is an important part of working with psychedelics and plant medicines. Indigenous cultures have different integration perspectives than Western attendees. In the West, attendees come back to more hustle and bustle, and may need more time for integration. Soltara does a really good job at providing integration resources and educating guests about the post-medicine experience.
Ayahuasca is a relational medicine. An anology that one of the facilitators used was that with psilocybin and other psychedelics, there is this one big entry door into the space – you eat the mushrooms and open the door and get to experience it heavily. With Ayahuasca, there is a smaller doorway to penetrate throug and you have to create a relationship with the medicine first.
If the people that really need the help can’t even afford medicine experiences, then how do we have mass healing? Peer support movements may be a way forward with this issue. As the field continues to grow, we need to look at more affordable and accessible models.
Hallie mentions that she was blown away by the amount of effort that it takes to uphold a medicine center like Soltara
Kyle says right from the start from arrival to the location, he was greeted with such warmth and it reminded him of his breathwork background
The ground rules that they laid down right at the start made him feel so safe
She said it’s amazing to see the amount of healing that happens in that space
“When it comes to your own medicine work, your own journey work, only you know what’s right for you” – Hallie
Hallie is part of a mastermind group through Aubrey Marcus, the CEO of Onnit
She is connected to a bunch of people as a part of this group
She was introduced to Dan Cleland, a co-founder of Soltara, who invited her to come down
Yes they had the traditional Shipibo aspects, but they also did a fantastic job of adding in the Western concepts to cater to the western needs
Hallie mentions that coming from the West, we have the need to integrate the experience in a different way than those coming from the East, and Soltara does a really good job with that kind of integration
The First Session
Before the first ceremony, participants engaged in what is called “vomitivo.” This is a process of clearing the body through purging. Participants are asked to drink a tea made from lemongrass and other admixtures that contain purgative properties.
Kyle said the tea was actually tasty
You drink a lot of it where you override the system to where the body wants to purge
The purging is to clear the system out of toxins and clean it out energetically
Soltara built in pre-ceremony sessions like yoga or meditation to help ease into the actual sessions
Kyle said that the Ayahuasca experience was familiar
Everything felt very green behind his eyes
There was a serpent weaving in and out of his DNA
The experience felt so healing
Kyle didn’t purge (vomit) but did do a little crying
He said he did not experience much anxiety
The serpent was healing him and stitching parts of himself back together
“There is something intelligent here working on very subtle levels” – Kyle
The next two ceremonies were very gentle, some crying, going through family dynamics, but always in the background, there was that same serpent
Kyle said the first 3 sessions felt really easy, compared to previous experiences with psychedelics
The spirit said to him “oh you think this was going to be easy, that you would just drink this and that I would show you all this stuff. Well, we have to get to know each other first”
With psilocybin, there is this one big door, you eat the mushrooms and open the door and get to experience it heavily, with Ayahuasca, there is a smaller doorway to penetrate through, you have to create a relationship with the medicine first
Final Ceremony
It was during the full moon in Cancer and lunar eclipse, the energy was already intense
For the 4th ceremony, Kyle was already feeling high energy, and did not want to go too strong, so he started with ¾ of a cup
Kyle felt more subtle effects of the medicine during the first part of the ceremony and the medicine told him to ask for a second dose
The facilitator gave Kyle ¼ of a cup more
That ¼ of a cup really opened up a door for Kyle
After the singing, he laid down and that’s when things took off
All of a sudden, he saw himself back in the CAT scan machine (referring back to his NDE as a teen)
He always tells the story as blissful and beautiful, but this time was so different
He saw himself back in the CAT scan machine as a child, and was terrified, and he began shaking
He felt this pain in his pelvic area as he felt during his NDE
He was shivering and so cold, it brought him right back into that state
He was re-experiencing the fear in a new way during the ceremony
He went into his body and felt the scar tissue and felt that shake and stretch and kind of brought in some healing there
After his actual surgery/NDE, as he was healing he was always really afraid to move in certain ways in the fear that movement would re-open some of the healing wounds
He got a clear way of looking at how the body holds trauma, especially after surgery
That trauma is tied to the way we hold ourselves, the way we walk and talk and in so many ways
This ceremony helped Kyle view somatic body work in such a new light
The ceremony was not scary, he allowed his body to process the fear, but not attach to the fear and become fearful
Yoga can also bring that out, stillness and vulnerability can bring up some body trauma and put you into that fight or flight response
Even when you think you’re done processing something, there are always more layers to dig into and see something differently to bring more clarity
Preparation
Hallie said what she is learning with this medicine, is that she doesn’t need to make anything happen, she needs to just let it happen
That feeling of relaxing things is scary because it means giving up control
It’s a practice and its a lot easier said than done
The most important part is the set (mindset), because the set is you
“Having your set figured out, when the going gets tough, you’re safe still” – Hallie
Kyle said that Aya always told him to wait, he didn’t need to jump into trying it right away, he waited over 10 years to process his NDE trauma
Hallie says it’s just like marriage, you can get married easily, but it’s not always going to work out if you don’t have the tools and the skill sets to maintain it
Ayahuasca is similar in needing the right tools and time to do it right
The dieta and the prep itself is so hard
People are turned off by the idea of doing something disciplined
These experiences can be so much different when we go through the process of giving something up
It’s not to punish ourselves, it’s to heal ourselves
“There is a whole other side of us, that opens up when we cut out some of the things that numb us” – Hallie
The dieta strips away the illusions, the plant medicines help us remember who we are
Hopi Creation Story
The great creator said “I have a gift for the human beings, but I need to hide it somewhere until they are ready to find it”
It is “the gift of the knowing that they can create anything, they can create their own reality”
The creator asked the earth where he should hide it
The eagle said he will bring it to the moon
The fish said he will bring it to the bottom of the sea
The buffalo said he will bring it to the edge of the plains
The creator said no to all of them, they will find it there
So the great grandmother who lives in the breast of the earth said, put it inside of them
And the creator said “it is done”
It brought Kyle back to his fourth ceremony, the Ayahuasca was a reminder that everything he needed was already inside of him
Privilege
It’s hard to tell people of their only legal options for healing, which most of them are leaving the country, which is not an option for some people
We are all worthy of finding relief of our suffering through psychedelics
Is therapy only going to be for the rich and elite? There are so many people who really need it
Yes, you can grow mushrooms, but then you’re at risk of the law
The system is so complex and we need a more humane way of moving forward in this field and offer experiences like this to the people that need it
Therapy is a privilege
Most people that need therapy are in survival mode that don’t have the privilege of access to therapy
Peer support movements are a way forward in this issue
If the people that really need the help can’t even afford it, then how do we have mass healing?
There are great healers out there that never became healers because they didn’t have the privilege to
Kyle says he escaped a lot of suicidal ideation after his near death experience, it took a lot of time to call earth his home
“Just to wake up and be a part of this, even that is magical in itself” – Kyle
“The stars come out every night, and we watch television” – Hallie
Authentic Self
Hallie has recently had her 12th Ayahuasca experience
“I am no longer breathing, I am being breathed” – Hallie
“Hatred does not exist, it is only a resistance to love” – Hallie
Even being hard on ourselves is only a resistance to loving ourselves
Its love with nowhere to go
People that have a lot of self hatred toward their bodies or themselves, the medicine always comes back to the self, it teaches people to love and take care of themselves
“You really can’t love anything outside of yourself until you love yourself” – Hallie
Kyle says that the people who he looks up to (ex, Stan Grof), what if they never showed up for themselfves? What if they never stood up for what they believe in?
Hallie Rose is an author, speaker, educator, and relationship coach from New York City. She is the host of The Thought Room Podcast and also the founder & CEO of the company Lunar Wild which aims to reclaim the sacred feminine and address a modern need for a Rite of Passage into womanhood. The Thought Room is a combination of edge-of-your-seat storytelling and groundbreaking interviews with celebrated thought-leaders from around the world. The show covers a breadth of topics including psychology, spirituality, sex & relationships, psychedelic science & plant medicine, bio-hacking, fitness, nutrition, alternative health, business & entrepreneurship, mindfulness, yoga, and meditation.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview previous guest of the show, Daniel Greig. In the show, he goes in depth into the meaning of enlightenment and previews the new book he is writing with Dr. John Vervaeke, The Cognitive Continuum.
3 Key Points:
Insight, flow and mystical experiences are all facets of working toward enlightenment.
Enlightenment is really a fundamental grip on reality. It’s about maintaining a relationship with the transcendent, it’s not about just constantly escaping this body life.
The mystical experience is a glimpse at consciousness. The most important part of having a mystical (psychedelic) experience is coming back into our bodies and developing better relationships with ourselves, others and the world.
Daniel is an educator, organizer and artist living in Toronto. He studied Cognitive Science and Philosophy at the University of Toronto, specializing in wisdom, consciousness, and spiritual belief and experience. In 2015, he founded the Mapping the Mind conference that occurs annually in Toronto, which raises much needed funds for psychedelic research. Daniel regularly host lectures and workshops, on topics in cognitive science. He is currently writing a book with Dr. John Vervaeke on the science of enlightenment, which will be published in 2020. When not contemplating the realm of the intellect, Daniel delves in the sonic perturbations of music, writing and producing progressive metal.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Chris Bache, author of LSD and the Mind of the Universe. Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions and talks about his experience in the show.
3 Key Points:
Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions, but he says that pushing the edge of high dose and high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties. He does not recommend high dose sessions like he did.
The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves.
In the show, they discuss psychedelic therapy and the debate on whether or not therapists should have to have psychedelic experience to do the therapy. Chris believes that the level of experience a therapist has had will impact the type of support they will be able to give.
He was the professor of Religious Studies, sticking to his traditional life
He knew there would come a time for him to share his experiences with a larger audience
Chris says he’s always been locked into his body and his physical experience
He had no background in psychedelic states of consciousness
Protocol
He said you’re always working with a sitter and same context/setting
As the dosage increased, he began creating a more intense music playlist
Chris thinks music is very important for psychedelic sessions
Chris does not recommend working with high doses
“When you’re working with opening consciousness that radically, music has a tremendous effect, it has an amplifying effect by 5 or 10x than doing it without music” – Chris
Chris said he has experienced all the common layers of the psychedelic unconscious that’s talked about
Consciousness Levels
Chris experienced 4 different death/rebirths
Chris differentiated 5 levels of the universe
The first is at the personal mind, where an ego death happens
The second takes places at the collective mind, about species
The third level is an archetypal mind, the high subtle mind, moving beyond the species existence
The fourth level is causal mind, causal oneness, profound states of non-dual reality
The last is Diamond Luminosity, its absolute clarity, pureness
Psychedelic Therapy
Chris says that there is a certain level of support that one needs to truly let go of themselves and let go to the experience
He says that he thinks the level of experience will impact the type of support a therapist will be able to give
Subtle Level
The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves
Pushing the edge of high dose, high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties
Chris says he was very secret about his psychedelic use, his students didn’t know about it
But he said after he had gone deep and touched these different levels of consciousness, his students became alive
The deeper he went in his own work, the more it touched the students at a deeper level
Potency
Chris thinks that LSD is a little cleaner than other psychedelics
His basic sense is that psilocybin tends to be less evocative, disruptive
Ayahuasca is more disruptive in opening up to deeper levels
LSD is the most disruptive in opening people up to really deep levels of consciousness
With LSD is was less about his personal experience, and more about the collective unconscious experience
Realizations
With one of his experiences, he had seen everything in his whole life all at once
He then entered into archetypal experiences, the platonic domain beyond the time-space reality
The beings he ‘met’ were as large as universes, responsible for creating time and space
He went into ‘deep time’, different magnitudes of time experiences in a broader frame of reference (where we are in the history of time, what our future looks like)
He reached that diamond luminosity level only 4 times out of all of his LSD sessions
“If we keep this up, sooner or later, the totality of this consciousness is going to wake up” – Chris
“We are moving toward a collective wake up, it’s not a personal experience, it’s a collective experience. An evolution of our species.” -Chris
If Chris has one tip, is to let go of our fear of death, when we die, we go back home
After so many sessions, and not taking the time to stop to integrate, after years, his body was screaming for community, and he felt this deep existential sadness and felt as if he was just waiting to die
It took 10 years to integrate his deep exploration, and to finally feel okay and comfortable again in his body suit and in this life
The universe is an infinite ocean of possibilities, we will never reach the end
“The collective psyche is being cosmically stimulated by the trauma that we are entering into” -Chris
Christopher M. Bache is professor in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Youngstown State University where he taught for 33 years. He is also adjunct faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies and a Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. An award-winning teacher, Chris’ work explores the philosophical implications of non-ordinary states of consciousness, especially psychedelic states. Chris has written three books translated into six languages: Lifecycles – a study of reincarnation in light of contemporary consciousness research; Dark Night, Early Dawn – a pioneering work in psychedelic philosophy and collective consciousness; and The Living Classroom, an exploration of teaching and collective fields of consciousness. His new book is Diamonds from Heaven ~ LSD and the Mind of the Universe (2019).
In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Peter Addy, Licensed Mental Health Counselor out of Washington. In the show, they talk about the research and therapeutic use of Salvia.
3 Key Points:
Salvinorin A is the active molecule that causes the psychedelic experiential reports, although there are at least a dozen unique compounds in the Salvia plant.
In a recreational setting, Salvia is usually smoked, but in the Mazatec culture, they do not smoke it, they use a sublingual method.
The clinical applications of Salvia are tricky right now. It’s not easy to get funding for psychedelic research.
Peter helped found the Yale Psychedelic Speaker Series
The main goal was to normalize talking about psychedelic research as research
Peter joined the pharmacology lab for his post doctoral research on Salvia
The team was mainly studying THC but were also studying Ketamine
He wanted to bring in MDMA and Psilocybin research
Peter attended The Institute of Transpersonal Psychology
As a psychologist, Peter focused heavily on feedback and experience
Transpersonal Psychology
It all started when Peter stumbled across a dusty book in the library as a Freshman, States of Consciousness by Charles Tart The book talked a lot about meditation
Joe says he has been practicing non-drug transpersonal states (breathwork) for years
You can have a psychedelic experience without drugs, and you can also take psychedelics and not have the psychedelic experience at all, it’s not about the drug
“Everyone has an innate desire towards transcending who they are, moving towards wholeness, and personal and societal transformation” – Peter
“If I’m kind, then people around me are more likely to be kind, it’s about the transformation of groups and societies than about having a cool trick” – Peter
Salvia
“Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy is proven to do a lot of really good things, but it’s not the only way and it’s not necessarily the right way. There are wrong ways to do it, but not one culture owns this experience.” – Peter
“Having a healthy critique of science in the modern world is helpful because its a series of provisional truths, it’s a good tool to get closer to objective reality, but its not perfect, it’s all we have so far” – Joe
Peter says that art is an amazing tool as well
Verbal language is limiting, he has seen images that can convey an experience way better than words can
Salvinorin A is the active molecule that causes the psychedelic experiential reports
There are at least a dozen unique compounds in the Salvia plant
There was going to be a bill to make Salvia illegal in 2008 or 2009
Now it’s just illegal for minors
Salvia Study
Peter recruited 30 people who had all used psychedelics
He used a controlled set, setting and intention
He used either a Salvia extract or just the unadulterated leaf
No one in the real world is using Salvinorin A, they are smoking the leaf or using extracts of the leaf
The participants smoked it when they desired, Peter was not enforcing the smoking
It was a very relaxed setting
Once the participants smoked, they then had an experience for 10 minutes, and then he came together with them and just listened to their experience
2 people got up and moved, the rest just sat there in the experience
Interoception (the inner feelings of your body) is the internal form of proprioception (the feeling of your body in space)
Every time you smoke something it is going to hit you quickly and be over quickly
By the time you realize what’s going on in a Salvia experience, you’re already on your way out
In the Mazatec culture, they do not smoke it, they use a sublingual method
Advice
The clinical applications of Salvia are tricky right now
It’s not easy to get funding for psychedelic research
Peter says if you do get funding, attach it to something else
MDMA research didn’t just begin to ‘see what it could help’, PTSD sucks, and there isn’t a whole lot that works to treat it, but MDMA does and it just happens to be a type of psychedelic
Peter is both a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in Washington and a Licensed Professional Counselor in Oregon. He earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology from Sofia University in 2011, including certification in biofeedback and Process Oriented Psychodrama. There, he studied non-ordinary states of consciousness, holistic and all-encompassing views of a person, and ways that these experiences can transform a person and society. Peter then engaged in post-degree specialty training at Danville State Hospital, Yale University School of Medicine, and the Connecticut Mental Health Center. As faculty at Yale University he engaged in research and training. Some of his clinical training is in mindfulness-based therapies, Motivational Interviewing, and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. He also discovered a passion for data management and security which he brings with him to his online therapy practice.
In today’s episode, Joe visits Naropa in Boulder, CO to sit down with Rafael Lancelotta and Alan Kooi Davis. Alan is a Clinical Psychology Professor at Ohio State and Rafael is a legal Psychedelic Therapist operating out of Innate Path in Colorado.
3 Key Points:
Facilitation is a huge problem in the 5-MEO-DMT space. Some people take it without the intention of working on it afterward, they are commonly given too much, and also in a poor context. This recipe of poor facilitation and guidance leads to a lot of challenging experiences and a lot of integration work.
The feeling of oneness typically arises when taking 5-MEO-DMT. It can be great for some, but for others, it can be extremely overwhelming and harmful when not provided the correct intention, context and tools to work through it.
Privilege is a huge issue in the psychedelic space. The goal in this space is to make everyone’s voice heard, not just those of privilege.
Rafael studied Mental Health Counseling at the University of Wyoming
He is currently at Innate Path in Lakewood, CO doing Ketamine and Cannabis assisted Psychotherapy
Alan
Alan is on the Faculty at John’s Hopkins
He is a Clinical Psychologist
He is currently doing clinical research on psychoactive substances
5-MEO-DMT
It is a psychoactive substance that comes from the Sonoran Desert Toad
It’s a fast acting and powerful psychedelic substance that is challenging to predict
Some have amazing, beautiful and transcendent experiences, but it also has the ability to bring up challenging and dark things to deal with
It isn’t as visual as other psychedelics, it has to deal a lot more with consciousness itself
“It may feel like being shot right into the center of love, or the center of the universe” – Alan
DMT can be more visual, while 5-MEO-DMT can be more spiritual, not that they can’t dip into each other
5-MEO-DMT Harms
Alan did a talk on 5-MEO-DMT at Horizons
There are a lot of harms when using 5-MEO-DMT
Both Alan and Rafael have been contacted numerous times about looking for facilitators or about trying to integrate massive and difficult experiences
An ego death, in the right context, can be transformative, but in the wrong context, can be extremely harmful.
The facilitators are the problem
If the facilitators are delivering the medicine in a shamanic practice, and the people using it are coming from a Western mindset, then with goals misaligned, there can be some major issues
People have these grand, god-like experiences when using psychedelics, then feel like they need to become shamans and facilitate these experiences for others and have literally no clue or education on how to properly care for these people using the Toad
Joe says facilitators commonly overdose their users because the toad venom is hard to predict potency
Alan says that the fear response needs to be initiated when extracting the venom from the toad
He thinks it can come up as a huge problem when using 5-MEO-DMT from a fear-stricken animal
Alan says there is a lot of reports of feeling abducted by aliens, and it could be related to the fear response from the toad being hunted for its venom
It’s a similar concept to the traumatization of any other animal by the way it is killed and then eating the meat of that traumatized animal
On average, there is roughly 10-20% of 5-MEO-DMT in the venom
Oneness
When someone becomes ‘one’ with everything, it takes a lot of detailed integration
When someone becomes ‘one’ with everything, that would also mean that they experience the suffering of everything around them
When the rational mind comes back online, if the person does not decide to take action, it can be seriously overwhelming to feel that oneness
Integration has part to do with the experience but then the other part is everything before it, our family, relationships, job, our personality, etc.
“Yeah its cool that we are one with the universe, but so is everything else” – Rafael
Power and Privilege
Privilege means having a voice, but it also means position in society, gender, race etc
In psychedelics, for so long, it has been so hard to find a voice
But with this psychedelic renaissance, it has become so much easier to speak up about psychedelic use, research, etc
The people within the scientific community get put on a pedestal to speak about psychedelic research
Alan says his goal as someone in the middle of the research role, is to create community, to bring every voice to be heard
Being connected to psychedelics in anyway, used to mean prosecution
There are still imbalances that need to be looked at
The psychedelic renaissance is a chance to look at systemic issues
We need to determine what our personal values are, and values of the whole community, and whether or not they are aligned
Final Thoughts
Alan says his goal is to continue having a voice and allowing others’ voices to be heard in this space
Rafael says his goal is to make this therapy more available to those who can benefit from it and not just for the privileged
Rafael is a graduate from the University of Wyoming in Mental Health Counseling. He has worked as a wilderness therapy guide with adolescents and young adults experiencing a wide range of emotional and psychological challenges. He has also worked as a counselor at the Behavioral Health Services unit of a psychiatric hospital treating severe and persistent mental illness and medically supervised drug and alcohol detox. He has worked on several research projects studying the epidemiology of 5-MeO-DMT use in the global population and is also the administrator of 5meodmt.org, an online forum dedicated to hosting community discussions on harm reduction, integration, and safe practices around 5-MeO-DMT use. He is interested in the use of psychedelics paired with therapy for increased resiliency, mental health, and openness. He believes that the counseling relationship is essential to deepen, enhance, and actualize the benefits of psychedelic-assisted therapy. He is passionate about finding ways to make psychedelic-assisted therapies available to all those who may benefit from it as well as helping to raise awareness as to responsible clinical applications of psychedelics/entheogens.
About Alan Kooi Davis
Dr. Alan K Davis is an Assistant Professor of Social Work at The Ohio State University and an Adjunct Assistant Professor in the Psychedelic Research Unit at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Davis’s clinical experience includes working with people diagnosed with trauma-based psychological problems such as addiction, PTSD, depression, and anxiety. His clinical expertise includes providing evidenced-based treatments such as motivational interviewing, cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, and psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy. Consistent with his clinical interests, his research interests and expertise focus on contributing to the knowledge of and ability to help those suffering with substance use and mental health problems, understanding how to improve clinical outcomes through examining new treatments, and developing ways to conceptualize substance use and mental health problems through a strengths-based approach.
Sonoran Desert toads emerge from earthly tombs every year after the late summer monsoons roll in, which cause countless tiny ponds and lakes to form. Though most will evaporate in a few hours or days, toads lay eggs in the depths of these small water beds. Most of the tadpoles won’t last longer than the waters in which they are born, a few will become pollywogs then toads, ensuring survival for another generation.
Life in the desert is stark as it is. But these unique desert toads are currently facing a host of new threats, including climate change, habitat loss and — perhaps most dangerous — commodification. Bufo alvarius, the Sonoran Desert toad’s scientific name, is the only known animal source of 5-MeO-DMT, a popular chemical among psychedelic users. Unfortunately, poachers overharvest toads to feed the ever-growing market for this powerful substance. While the International Union for Conservation of Nature Red List of Threatened Species placed these toads in the lowest category of risk for extinction in 2004, the same report acknowledged they were virtually extinct in California. Scientists, conservationists, and artists are banding together to ensure the rest of the species avoids a similar fate.
Climate Change on Habitats
To understand how human-caused climate change could impact Sonoran Desert toads, we first need to look at potential effects on their home region. A 2012 study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) predicted that the Southwest would continue to get hotter and drier. A 2018 National Climate Assessment bore out those predictions. This is bad news for toads, who already live near their physiological limits. More troubling was a 2017 report in Nature Climate Change, which predicted the probable decline of monsoons by 30 to 40 percent over the next century.
Thomas R. Jones, Amphibians and Reptiles Program Manager for the Arizona Game and Fish Department, believes parsing the impact of climate change from other threats and historical fluctuations is difficult if not impossible. This past summer he observed a decrease in toad populations at a site where they are normally abundant. “I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say if the monsoon gets squirrely and we have drier years, it will be rougher on summer breeding anurans — toads and frogs — like the Sonoran Desert toad,” Jones said.
Overdevelopment and the Destruction of Habitats
While climate change looms like ominous clouds in the distance, habitat loss is the single greatest threat to Sonoran Desert toads. According to a 2013 report from the USDA, 90 percent of riparian areas in Arizona and New Mexico converted to other land uses over the last century, ultimately turning habitats into agriculture fields or residential developments. At the same time, surface water was diverted from the few year-round rivers into massive reservoirs as aquifers pumped out groundwater in order to supply the region’s growing population and agricultural production.
These toads once thrived in farmland irrigation systems, too. But, due to the increasingly intense use of chemicals — both pesticides and fertilizers — and mechanization, they disappeared from some agriculture areas, such as the Southern California side of the Colorado River and the Imperial Valley.
Paved roads are also particularly deadly to these creatures. Toads go to pools that form on impermeable surfaces where water can more easily absorb through their skin. The hot spots for Sonoran Desert toads are lined with roads, often putting them in harm’s way. In fact, a 2010 study in Human-Wildlife Interactions estimated 12,264 amphibians died annually on roads in and around Saguaro National Park just west of Tucson, Arizona. Roads also hinder the toad’s range, causing a loss in gene flow, or genetic evolution, which negatively effects populations, according to Jones. “The number of animals that die on roads are just huge.”
Pop Culture, Money, and Psychedelic Tourism
The least understood threat is the impact of poaching and overharvesting for the 5-MeO-DMT market. Though Sonoran Desert toads can be legally gathered with appropriate licenses in Arizona, collecting them for the extraction of 5-MeO-DMT — which became a Schedule 1 substance in 2011 — is a federal crime.
In order to extract 5MeO-DMT, the toads must be agitated, which causes their glands to excrete poison. Then, it’s squeezed or scraped out. Robert Villa, president of the Tucson Herpetological Society (THS) and a research associate at the University of Arizona’s Desert Laboratory on Tumamoc Hill, is concerned about the harm this poses to toad survival.
“I think what’s going to happen over time is that if intensive collection continues,”Villa explained,“it’s going to create a vacuum in these areas, what is also known as a mortality sink.”
Some argue that indigenous communities have used the drug for centuries. But Villa points to flaws in this argument, saying that some advancing this position may have a vested financial interest in doing so. Some scholars have cited the discovery of toad bones at shamanic burial sites. If true, it could legitimize the toad extraction industry, helping businesses grow at the expense of the toad populations. For doctors or others selling 5-MeO-DMT, this would be a boon.
But Villa noted the bones were from a different species of toad that doesn’t produce 5-MeO-DMT. He is not convinced by the evidence that indigenous people historically used the toad as a source of 5-MeO-DMT. “We couldn’t decipher it from residues. There’s research that discovered cacao residue in pots in New Mexico,” Villa explained. “What we see today is a blatant misuse of indigenous culture to do it.”
We may never know who first smoked 5-MeO-DMT for sure, but one of the earliest academic papers citing its psychedelic properties appeared in a 1967 issue of Biochemical Pharmacology. Then, knowledge about how to extract, prepare, and consume 5-MeO-DMT from toads was first widely propagated by a pamphlet written in 1983. The document contained detailed instructions, diagrams, and background information. Its author was listed as Albert Most, a pen name, though multiple people throughout history have claimed to be Most.
Though its authorship is disputed, the pamphlet’s role in raising awareness about the drug is not. Following its publication, groups like the Church of the Toad of Light started promoting 5-MeO-DMT consumption. Its proponents claim the drug can help with depression and anxiety, which was supported by a study in The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse earlier this year. Advocates also claim it helps with recovery from substance abuse.
Unfortunately, a number of bad actors are harming toads and humans by providing the toad excrement for consumption. An open letter published earlier this year accused two doctors who facilitate 5-MeO-DMT use, Octavio Rettig and Gerry Sandoval, of defrauding, harming, and even causing patients to die. Numerous self-proclaimed shamans administer the drug illegally throughout the US and other countries. One such person was identified as Shaman Dan. He is alleged to have led a series of 5-MeO-DMT parties at the residence of a woman in Southern California, who we’ll call Christina (not her real name) for the sake of anonymity.
Christina was connected to Shaman Dan by her mentors, who recruited her into Amway, a multi-level marketing company accused of being a pyramid scheme by consumer advocates, academics, and newspapers such as the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. She described Shaman Dan as a white male under 25-years-old who formerly sold energy drinks through a multi-level marketing company. He told Christina that he was trained in Mexico by a woman named Shaman Sandra. After extracting the toad’s poison — which Christina incorrectly identified as venom — Shaman Dan described using an undisclosed chemical as a bonding agent into the 5 MeO-DMT blend.
“It’s not something the individual taking it knows,” Christina said. “That’s why it’s very important that you trust whoever is administering this, because if they do not know what they’re doing, they will mess you up. It’s basically like taking crystal meth from a drug dealer off the street.”
Public awareness of the toad has grown rapidly in recent years, with increasing references not just in academic journals, but in popular media as well. Journalist and author Michael Pollan discussed his negative experience with 5-MeO-DMT in his 2018 bookHow to Change Your Mind, which reached number one on the New York Times bestsellers list. Pollan also discussed the subject on The Joe Rogan Experience,a popular podcast. Host Joe Rogan has covered 5-MeO-DMTs transformative power many times, perhaps most notably in an episode from earlier this year with Mike Tyson. All this buzz leaves the little toads facing evermore heavyweight dangers from all corners.
The Sonoran Desert toad does not face these challenges alone, however. The THS is funding a project to study how the ionic composition of cement water holes may be harmful or even lethal to amphibians. Villa partnered with Cream Design and Print to produce t-shirts, posters and other items that spread awareness about the danger extraction poses to toads, and to raise money for conservation efforts. He hopes that if potential 5-MeO-DMT users know the harm they’re doing to these hardy animals, that they will choose less-harmful methods for obtaining whatever it is they seek.
While the toad may be the only animal source for 5-MeO-DMT, the compound can be synthesized and found in many plants. The seeds of one species of Anadenanthera trees in South America contain 5-MeO-DMT and DMT. Virola trees also originate from South America, and some species of this plant contain both forms of DMT as well. They are both typically prepared as snuffs but can be consumed otherways as well.
Synthetic 5-MeO-DMT is in many ways a superior delivery vehicle to the toad-sourced variety. The extract from toads contains many other chemicals and can be dangerous if it is not consumed correctly. Synthetic 5-MeO-DMT can be precisely dosed, whereas every toad’s extract is a little different. The study cited earlier showing 5-MeO-DMT’s effectiveness as a treatment for depression and anxiety used the synthetic variety in its experimental trials.
The benefits of synthetic versus toad-sourced 5-MeO-DMT were even discussed by Rogan on his podcast. Rogan reported a very positive experience when he consumed synthetic 5-MeO-DMT. Pollan had a very different reaction, describing his consumption of the toad-sourced variety as horrible. For the most toad-loving psychonauts, these alternatives can provide a safer and more eco-conscious way to experience this unique molecule. “It boils down to your individual ethics,” Villa said. “As psychonauts, I would hope that you are able to think about how your use of substances and your acquisition of those substances has an effect on the rest of the world.”
About the Author
Jeff Kronenfeld is an independent journalist and fiction writer based out of Phoenix, Arizona. His articles have been published in Vice, Overture Global Magazine and other outlets. His fiction has been published by the Kurt Vonnegut Memorial Library, Four Chambers Press and other presses. For more info, go to www.jeff-k.com.
In today’s episode, Joe interviews Mike Jay, Author of the book, Mescaline: A Global History of the First Psychedelic. In the show they discuss Mescaline’s origins and the history of Peyote use.
3 Key Points:
Mike Jay is a Cultural Historian and Author whose topics include science, medicine, drugs, madness, literature and radical politics.
Mike’s recent book, Mescaline, is a definitive history of mescaline that explores its mind-altering effects across cultures, from ancient America to western modernity.
Over time, Peyote has been used by spiritual seekers, by psychologists investigating the secrets of consciousness, artists exploring the creative process, and by psychiatrists.
Mike Jay is a freelance writer, an author and cultural historian
Mike has been interested in Mescaline for a really long time
Indigenous Use
James Mooney is a crucial figure in the transition from indigenous use of peyote to the more current applications
The New Deal made religions respected, protected under the First Amendment for freedom of worship
History
There is a ton of literature before the 60’s on psychedelic use
It was obvious that if people were interested in psychoactive drugs, they would take it themselves
Back then, science was much more proactive than it is today, but it is becoming more popular again
Peyote Experience
It’s hard to find an ethical source of Peyote
Mike says its unpleasant but warm and tingly and euphoric
By 1970, Mescaline was this legendary substance, but it was hard to find on the streets unless you knew an underground chemist
On the Erowid site, they have a bulletin that the DEA created about all of the street drug seizures He wrote a book 20 years ago called Emperors of Dreams
2CB is not as intense as Mescaline
Mescaline is a phenethylamine
It does not cross the blood brain barrier as easily. So you need to take more of it
It is a body and mind drug
Indigenous Use
The Comanches were in a reservation in the Wichita mountains
He was notified by the Comanches on some history
He went to meet with them, and they told him stories on the history
Peyote use originated inside of a Tipi
“The way that we see psychedelics in modern Western culture, is not the only way of thinking about it:” – Mike
Native American Church
There is an interesting thing that happened between Mexican/South American Shamanic practice and Native American Church
In the ceremony, the facilitator is made to not ask like a priest, everyone is their own priest
It is a healing modality for everybody
The very first peyote experiences in the west encouraged artists to make art
Salvador Dali was apparently anti-drug use
The surrealist movement had a number of rules
Huichol art is a very psychedelic inspired art
The plant
Peyote is so fast growing, in some places it is growing naturally
San Pedro is way more sustainable than Peyote
There is a lot of demand for Peyote currently
Joe says he thinks that Peyote is not scheduled in Canada
Accounts
The western story is full of first-person experiencesIts based on the personal
experiences and visions
In the indigenous accounts, there are very little stories on experience or personal matters, its more recording on the collective experience
Mike Jay is a leading specialist in the study of drugs across history and cultures. The author of Artificial Paradises, Emperors of Dreams, and The Atmosphere of Heaven, his critical writing on drugs has appeared in many publications, including The Guardian, The Telegraph, and The International Journal of Drug Policy. He sits on the editorial board of the addiction journal Drugs and Alcohol Today and on the board of the Transform Drug Policy Foundation. He lives in England.
The psychedelic revolution is upon us. After receiving an FDA “Breakthrough Therapy” designation for psilocybin (a hallucinogenic compound in magic mushrooms) and MDMA-assisted psychotherapy against treatment-resistant depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), hallucinogens are finally finding place amongst the most viable psychiatric protocols of the modern-day. With appropriate dosage, set and setting, psychedelics have demonstrated unparalleled clinical efficacy in alleviating symptoms of some of the most prevalent and pressing psychological disorders and afflictions—depression,1,2 PTSD,3 substance abuse and addiction,4,5,6,7 obsessive-compulsive disorder,8 anxiety in the terminally ill…9,10 The list goes on. And whether its the decriminalization of psilocybin by Denver and Oakland, new strides in clinical research with MDMA, or microdosing LSD to enhance corporate creativity in Silicon Valley, I open the paper to a new headline every day. The reach of these psychedelic agents is great, and only becoming greater.
With the second advent and accruing legitimacy of these therapeutic tools, we are confronted with an entirely new era of psychiatry and consciousness studies. It is the marriage science and spirituality, or, in the words of UCLA psychiatrist and psychedelic researcher Charles Grob, a form of “applied mysticism.”11 Under the auspices of integrative medicine, individuals are benefitting tremendously from psychedelically-occasioned mystical-type experiences. They are afforded feelings of unity, euphoria, vastness, unbridled love, and profound peace and joy.12,13,14 Also referred to as “plant teachers” and “entheogens”—literally translated to that which “releases the divine within”—psychedelics seem to open us up, to expose us to ourselves and the entire palette and majesty of existence, and then return us graciously to our more familiar form of being, endowed with an enhanced capacity for the fundamental human tenets of empathy, love, and compassion.
Undoubtedly, then, it is an exciting time — But a provocative and precarious time at that. There is still so much to know. So we must learn from the lessons of our psychedelic past, temper our excitement, and exercise faith and patience in the gradualism of empirical science. In order to fully realize the potential of psychedelics in psychological healthcare, we must all act together, slowly, steadily, and with altruistic intention.
As a recent undergraduate, I completed an independent Senior research project on the biochemistry of hallucinogenic mushrooms, in order to do my very small part. Word got around that I was studying psychedelics, even quicker than you would expect at a small liberal arts college in the middle of a rural farm state. To strangers, I became “the girl who studies shrooms,” and I did not mind.
Magic mushrooms? Spirituality? And Biochemistry? At an academic institution? How could that be?
To those inquisitors, I was prepared and passionate to discuss my findings. But I never could have anticipated the explosion of interest and many thoughtful inquiries I did receive.
My email inbox was deluged with “your research,” “looking to connect,” or “coffee?” subject headings, from people of all walks of life—those that fit the psychedelic archetype, and those remarkably unsuspecting or straight edge; those in tie-dye and those in polo shirts; students of every grade and social circle, athletes and artists, of red and blue states, all races, religious ideologies or lack thereof, and socioeconomic class; professors of music and mathematics, biology, economics, gender studies, and yes, of course, physics and poetry. Many were already knocking on Alfred Huxley’s Doors of Perception and finding that their particular variety of everyday existence just wasn’t cutting it anymore.
I was startled by how many were curious to try psychedelics, or were already actively exploring the subtlest realms of their unconscious mind; how many aspired for a better understanding of themselves, or felt spiritually deprived and were seeking validation or comradery of the soul; how many sought antidote to their feelings of anger, alienation, or dissatisfaction in “recreational” psychedelic use, and spoke with me in crisis of the psyche, believing there is and wanting more.
I wondered, is this a time of collective awakening and curiosity, but occurring behind closed doors? According to the 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 17% percent of people surveyed between ages 21 and 64 reported lifetime use of one or more psychedelics, LSD, psilocybin (magic mushrooms), mescaline, and/or peyote.15 That is an estimated 32 million Americans tripping. People are doing psychedelics — on a therapist’s couch, in National Parks, in your very own neighborhood streets. And, consistent with accounts from clinical therapeutic psilocybin and MDMA trials, people are having extraordinary revelations. They are experiencing undiluted joy or traversing phantasmagorical landscapes of kaleidoscopic complexity. Some are enduring adversity there, confronting buried traumas and subconscious discontent, while others come face-to-face with God. Some experience an extinction of self, sheer terror, or utter bliss. Psychedelics are reawakening individuals to life, and sometimes, to love as its essence. And upon return to baseline “consensus reality,” many don’t quite know what to do.
The majority of those with whom I spoke or exchanged emails with were concerned with reintegration. They were apprehensive of the applicability of their psychedelic insight into day-to-day life. Put simply, they worry, where to put all the love? How to incite this change?
And I hope we can agree, it is sad that this dilemma exists. That inspired individuals struggle to find practical or quotidian applications for newfound senses of interconnectedness, peace and joy. Many feel estranged or paralyzed in the aftermath of a psychedelic experience, under the impression that their come-to-God realizations or mystical musings are not compatible with their preexisting way of life. Some worry that if they speak of their journey, eyes will roll, and their story will be met with skepticism. People do not feel adequately supported, socially or societally.
One friend of mine, a highly successful financial analyst in his mid 50’s, wrote to me after a particularly potent psilocybin journey, “society is not a place for the loving. It is ill-compassionate in conception and now character. And I am afraid I will be called a hippie.” I, too, struggle with this. My goal is to become an integrative psychiatrist, but I have been counseled to refrain from mentioning psychedelic research in my medical school application. I am not supposed to speak openly about my belief that hallucinogens are tremendous tools for personal transformation, or of the love and gratitude I have been afforded by incredible psychedelic insights of my own. I am not Michael Pollan and lack his immediate credibility. How may we legitimize our curiosity and excitement?
I believe the power to do so is in the hands of the people. By practicing acceptance, acting with kindness, cultivating community, and welcoming the return of psychedelic voyagers with open ears and arms, we, as an evolving society, may eliminate the stigma. We may realize the full potential of these medicines, in and outside of sanctioned medical settings. Because let’s face it, people are tripping anyway. Much like clinical psychedelic-assisted therapeutic models, in which debriefings are held, explorers of the mind may benefit from similar sympathetic settings to decompress, review and reflect, to derive meaning from their experience, assimilate and grow. In the absence of a mediating shaman or psychiatrist, by default, this responsibility may be assumed by friends and family. People should not be left to confide only in “the girl who studies shrooms.” Not to mention, risks associated with psychedelic use are most pronounced when used recklessly and/or in unsupervised settings. The likelihood of experiencing panic and paranoia of potentially lasting psychological detriment, or of injury or fatality due to impaired judgment, is reduced in safe and supportive physical session environments, which we may create and hold for one another.
May we remain leery and methodological regarding the process of legalization, then, to the extent that it does not inhibit personal growth, freedom of expression, cognitive liberty, and the propagation of love. While psychedelics are finding their rightful nook in modern medicine and perhaps, impacting the lives of some you hold dear, we should engage in communion, and indulge in the most effectively human thing about us, our ability to care and connect. To give and listen and learn. Hopefully, someday soon, there will be formal research and psychiatric training facilities, providing comfortable, secure environments for sensible psychedelic use. But in the meantime, may we embrace this important avenue of self-exploration, by being there for one another.
About the Author
Zoe Moynihan graduated in May, 2019 from Middlebury College, with a Bachelor’s degree in Biochemistry, Summa Cum Laude. Zoe completed independent senior research on the biochemistry of psilocybin mushrooms, which culminated in her final paper entitled Magic Mushrooms: A Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality; Psilocybin Phenomenology, Pharmacodynamics, and Psychopharmaceutical Applications.
In this episode, Joe interviews Dena Justice from the Ecstatic Collective. Dena and Joe talk about Neuro Linguistic Programming and how it is beneficial to use with non-ordinary states of consciousness.
3 Key Points:
NLP is Neuro Linguistic Programming. Dena Justice is a Lifestyle Design Strategist that uses NLP to help people create their dream, ecstatic life.
93% of communication happens at the subconscious level. NLP training focuses on how we use communication tools to help people in non-ordinary states of consciousness.
Perception is Projection. Our belief of someone else, is a projection of ourselves onto them.
As a master manifester, Dena has created a beautiful life for herself. She been financially responsible since age 15 including putting herself through college, two masters degrees and purchasing her own home in the San Francisco Bay Area. She has made over $1M in her life through a fulfilling career as a facilitator, educator, trainer, mentor and coach working with thousands of people across the country. She loved her career, yet hit a point where she felt empty. Near the top of her career ladder, she was a classic case of a high performer and leader hitting burnout. She chose a powerful pivot out of her J-O-B and into her own business. Now, she helps other high performers who have hit burnout and are scared to admit they’ve hit a plateau or a wall. She helps them get the eff out of their own way and move to the next level to increase their impact so they feel fulfilled and inspired again, as well as helping them create more wealth and the relationships they want in their lives. She helps people experience new levels of success, increase/improve focus and performance, abolish FOMO, evolve communication skills, develop transformational leadership skills, create amazing relationships, increase financial abundance and live life on their own terms.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Raquel Bennett to recap on the KRIYA Conference. Kyle attended the conference, which is to bring people together with dedication to understanding the better use of Ketamine.
3 Key Points:
The more recent KRIYA Conference was the last of its kind. The goal is to make information on ketamine more accessible to more people in the future.
At KRIYA Institute, they believe that there is not one right way to use ketamine, different patients are best served by different treatment strategies.
Intramuscular ketamine is usually 93% bioavailable, while nasal and lozenge based ketamine is usually only 40% bioavailable. The less variability the better when working with a powerful medicine for therapy.
KRIYA is an international conference focused on ketamine and its therapeutic potential
The goal of KRIYA is to get people of all different ketamine backgrounds in the same room
Different people benefit from different things, and different doses and methods matter
There is a symbiotic relationship between therapeutic and spiritual practice of ketamine
She wanted to create a place where researchers and clinicians could come together
This last conference was the last one
The conference is CME accredited, which means physicians can get units for their education
Raquel picks people from different backgrounds, therapists who use low dose ketamine for therapy, to those who do full blown spiritual work with ketamine
Ketamine is a relational medicine – which is about having a relationship with the substance
Ketamine Therapy
Ketamine Therapy Lessons
Wisdom Teaching
A Loving Relationship
The Medicine
The medicine is adjunct to the entire process, it’s not just about the ketamine, it’s about the relationships, the wisdom teaching, etc. And each are powerful on their own, and even more powerful when all combined
When people are using ketamine in absence from the other components, people are not getting the full effect that they could
“Ketamine when done correctly, when administered in the right setting, with the correct support, enhances resilience.” – Raquel
Therapy is an important mechanism to teach coping skills needed in psychotherapy
Highlights of KRIYA
When Raquel first started running this conference in 2015, the clinicians were afraid to even come, they were afraid to talk about Ketamine
This past year, there were hundreds of applicants and so much excitement around talking about ketamine
In 2014, a whole bunch of psychiatrists stood up and said they have been using ketamine for their patients and it worked
A doctor talked about combining meditation with ketamine to heal substance use disorder
When ketamine is offered in a structured context, its highly beneficial
Another doctor talked about using ketamine to treat those who are acutely suicidal
People who are severely psychiatrically distressed benefit from ketamine treatment
Another doctor talked about combining ketamine with EMDR to treat patients with PTSD
Bioavailability
Raquel says she prefers intramuscular ketamine over lozenges
It’s the cheapest way of doing it
Its super precise, you have a great control of the bioavailability of the ketamine to the patient
With IM, 93% is bioavailable
With nasal and lozenge ketamine, usually 40% makes it to the patient’s brain, which is a huge range of variability when working with a powerful medicine
Progression
Clinicians are on the fence for prescribing for at home use
A doctor talked about 4 different tiers of ketamine experiences related to dosage
Other doctors talked about measurement tools of pre and post experience ways to take data when administering ketamine to patients
There is a lot of ketamine use outside of the medical context
The field is stuck in the question “Should ketamine be allowed to be used by people who aren’t psychiatrically fragile?”
Everything good that is going to come out of ketamine usage and assisted therapy, will come
It’s a slow process, but it is all moving forward
Final Thoughts
Raquel encourages people to are interested with using ketamine in therapy to get together regionally and learn from each other
She is thinking about creating a video series, as well as a retreat for ketamine providers
The KRIYA Conference is over, but the KRIYA Institute isn’t going anywhere
She is looking at ways to get the information out faster and to more people, than to limit it just to conference attendees
Dr. Bennett is a Post-Doctoral Fellow in Clinical Psychology (PSB 94022544), working under the supervision of Dr. Bravo. Dr. Bennett primarily works with people who are experiencing severe depression, who are on the bipolar spectrum, or who are contemplating suicide. She has been studying the therapeutic properties of ketamine since she first encountered it in 2002. In addition to her clinical work, Dr. Bennett’s practice has evolved to include consultation services for medical professionals who wish to add ketamine services to their offices. She also lectures frequently about therapeutic ketamine. Dr. Bennett is the Founder of KRIYA Institute and the Organizer of the KRIYA Conferences.
In today’s episode, Joe sits down with Andy Frasco, a touring rock musician with the band, Andy Frasco and the UN. In the show, they cover what is it like to be a touring rock musician with drugs so available and how to live more healthfully in the space.
3 Key Points:
Andy Frasco is a talented, touring music artist a part of the band, Andy Frasco and the UN, as well as a podcast show host. Andy uses psychedelics to help cope with the anxiety that the rock star lifestyle brings.
Psychedelics open us up to the possibility that everything we know is wrong. Finding truth and clarity for some people is hard, and people resort to alcohol and other harmful behaviors to suppress the painful reality we live in.
Cocaine and uppers only keep a rock star up for so long. It keeps you awake for the partying, but it suppresses all the stresses of the lifestyle. Psychedelics and meditation can help with the balance needed in a stressful, lifestyle of traveling and fame.
Microdosing is typically 6 weeks on, two weeks off, dosing every 3 days
1/10-3/10ths of a gram (of mushrooms) is the typical microdose
Once you feel it, it’s more of a macro-dose
Paul Stamets has made mushrooms popular
Mushroom Evolution
Mushrooms did not leave a mark on bone structure, so it’s hard to tell if they actually made a difference in human evolution
Drugs have been around for a long time, and people in the past have definitely used them
There are studies of mushrooms helping to grow nerve cells and brain neurons back
We are only 50-100 years in on science “(Psychedelics) open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong.” -Terence McKenna
Joe says he’s been to a therapist a bunch of times, and he says he has enjoyed it
Joe’s main form of therapy has been Breathwork
His most intense experiences have been just as powerful as his Ayahuasca experience
About Andy
Andy says he is open about taking psychedelics, he takes mushrooms, he doesn’t really use cocaine
He says he feels more anxious when he isn’t taking them than when he is
He says he gets really anxious on weed now as he gets older
Psychedelics show us a lot of truths
“We are all trying to figure out life, it’s hard. Psychedelics help us create a better relationship with our mind.” – Andy
Andy says he has been anxious his whole life
He has had very scary panic attacks
He became addicted to sex as a crutch for his anxiety
He woke up one day, and sex didn’t give him the thrill anymore
Andy started in the music industry because rock stars get the chicks
Teen years are just about being super insecure about everything
Shame is a huge influence on our relationships with other people
“The majority of effects from drug use for people are good.” – a quote from Carl Hart, a Psychology Professor who studies drug use
Andy’s first psychedelic experience was an 8th of mushrooms at 18 years old
Rock Star Lifestyle
Andy says he used to be really into coke because he just had to stay up for the shows
But he says he doesn’t take anything anymore that feels like speed
He was coping his exhaustion with drugs and alcohol
“When you’re in a band you’re the party for one day of the year in that city.” – Andy
Life for a rock star can’t just be the 2 hour show, the trick is figuring out how to be mindful for the other 14 hours of the day after the party
The lifestyle is really hard, its very common to use drugs, sex and alcohol to suppress it
Humans were not designed for this
Andy has begun using transcendental meditation to help with this lifestyle
He also mentions having his first DMT experience recently
Links
Use code PSYTODAY at Onnit for discount on all products except fitness equipment Get a 30 day free trail at Audible
About Andy Frasco
Andy Frasco, a Los Angeles, CA native singer, songwriter, band maestro, entrepreneur, party starter and everyday hustler, tours with his band, “The U.N.” The music has elements of Soul, Funk, Rock and Roots and the shows have been described as orchestrated chaos, an overall great time. Frasco average 200+ dates a year, touring the country dozens of times, creating a loyal following everywhere he goes.
Kyle was interviewed recently by Third Eye Drops. Check it out!
In this mind meld, therapist and Psychedelics Today co-founder, Kyle Buller joins us to chat near-death experiences, the hugely overlooked power of breathwork, communing with the trickster archetype and much more.
This media vessel has summoned another spectacular sentient sack of stardust to the mix. His name is Kyle Buller. We met in New York at the WITMA event a couple of weeks back and he’s an all-around lovely, insightful human— He’s a therapist with expertise in the physiological, psychological and psychedelic impact of breathwork. He’s also the co-founder of his own media vessel which you may have heard of, Psychedelics Today. They’ve too have a pod, a website and socials, definitely do the necessary keyboard mudras to check them out.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe sit down to cover questions from listeners of the show. They discuss topics that include psychedelic use for exorcisms, cluster headaches, athletic performance, processing grief and more.
3 Key Points:
There are a few examples where psychedelics are used to increase athletic performance. Psychedelics can also be used to help realign those who are using sports as a form of distraction from internalized issues.
When eliminating variables for psilocybin consistency in mushrooms for therapeutic use, freeze drying helps. But there are so many variables in mushrooms versus synthesized psilocybin.
When addressing the sustainability of the Toad, according to the data, there isn’t a real difference between 5-MEO-DMT from a toad and synthesized 5-MEO-DMT
The receptor site activity is the same as opioid pills
Using Psychedelics for an Exorcism
Kyle thinks of shamanic uses for plant medicines, and with the idea of purging and spiritual emergence, working in non-ordinary states can exacerbate these states and maybe help with this kind of work
Joe and Kyle go into writings from Stan Grof, explaining the physical appearance of those going through LSD psychotherapy or breathwork, and how it assimilates to an ‘exorcism’ of releasing the bad
The purging during a psychedelic experience may feel evil, or alien
Joe and Kyle say, do not perform an exorcism, leave it to the trained people
Treating Cluster Headaches with Psychedelics
Cluster Busters is an organization for the research on cluster headaches
LSD works for some as well as oxygen treatments work for others
We know a lot more about migraines than cluster headaches
The migraine is where neurons in the brain start misfiring and create a firing storm
How can Psilocybin Mushrooms be Standardized in Production for Therapeutic Use?
Joe says the practical solution is to have a really large amount of psilocybe cubensis, all blended up, and then split in even doses
There are potency differences between species, strains, etc
There are so many variances with mushrooms versus synthetic psilocybin
Freeze drying also promotes close to 0% loss of psilocybin when drying mushrooms
Psychedelics and Athletic Performance
There may be psychological blocks that are getting in the way of a person reaching the peak performance of their genome
It could be trauma, or psychological blocks
Athletic performance could be a distraction from what you’re really here to do
Athletes have a lot of dysfunctional behavior
Psychedelics may show us our bad behavior and help us align
Kyle says he had this passion to snowboard and dedicate his life to snowboarding, and then he received a message in journeywork that told him snowboarding is simply a hobby and he needs to focus his life on other things
“Sports are a great way to cover up our emotions” – Joe
A lot of people internalize it instead of breaking down and letting it go
Links
Use code PSYTODAY at Onnit for discount on all products except fitness equipment Get a 30 day free trail at Audible
About Kyle
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
Kyle had the chance to record with The Consciousness Podcast in Febuary 2019. Kyle gets into some interesting topics from NDE, psychedelics and more!
This episode is a little different from what you’ve come to expect. I recently covered the Arizona Psychedelics Conference here in my home state of Arizona, hoping to learn from the insight gained by those who work in the healing world of psychedelic therapies. I had a chance to sit down with three incredible people who work in the field and get their ideas on human consciousness, based on their personal experiences and those with their patients and clients.
Arizona Psychedelics Conference
The first segment is with Kyle Buller, the co-founder of Psychedelics Today. Kyle has a BA in Transpersonal Psychology from Burlington College where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and psychedelic psychotherapy. We discussed his own Near Death Experience and what he learned about his own consciousness. You can learn more about his practice at www.settingsunwellness.com.
Breathwork
Transpersonal breathwork, Stan and Christina Groff
Vehicle to reach non-ordinary state of consciousness
Transpersonal layers, non-waking consciousness
NDE, and Kyle’s Experience
Access to new information; new view of the world; map of how the world worked
What is consciousness? Spirit? Body.
What does it mean to be alive?
Is the body a manifestation of a higher consciousness?
Non-ordinary states of consciousness, altered states of consciousness
The body is a receiver of consciousness, like a TV
Mind-body spirit connection; body experience produces emotions, mind changes
Cryptography of the human psyche
Psilocybin for depression is becoming a major avenue of clinical research. The Usona Institute out of Madison, Wisconsin is about to begin the largest psilocybin-depression study in the US. Part of the FDA’s drug approval protocol, this phase 2 clinical trial will test the magic mushroom compound in 80 individuals for safety and efficacy in treating major depressive disorder (MDD).
When Usona co-founder, Malynn Utzinger, MD presented at this year’s Horizons Conference, she explained that she and co-founder Bill Linton originally wanted to look at psilocybin for depression and anxiety in those with terminal cancer. But when they brought the idea to the FDA, the government organization basically said: Why limit yourselves to depression in cancer patients? And so they changed gears to research psilocybin for depression more generally.
“It is our duty to make sure a potentially effective medicine gets to the widest… group of medical need,” Utzinger said on stage. She went on to explain that depression affects 300 million people worldwide and is predicted to be the second-largest cause of medical morbidity by next year, to further show the need for this research.
Psilocybin Depression Studies
So could psilocybin help those millions of people? Usona is hopeful, especially among the large portion of people with depression for whom traditional treatment, like anti-depressant medication, does not work. They’ve recently secured 7 clinical trial sites that will conduct this research and give qualified participants psilocybin along with therapeutic support. The sites are located around the US and include Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, the University of California San Francisco, Yale University in Connecticut, University of Wisconsin-Madison, private testing sites in Chicago and Miami, and NYU in Manhattan – which is also the first site to complete training of facilitators and begin recruiting participants.
People are very interested in trying this new depression treatment. In fact, Utzinger said in her talk that over 6,000 people have volunteered for the 80 available spots in their phase 2 trial.
Although this is the biggest study in the US looking at psilocybin for depression, this isn’t exactly a new concept. Outside of clinical trials, folks have been reporting reduced depression symptoms from psychedelic experiences – and peak experiences in general – for a long time. In fact, a 2017 study that looked at lifetime psychedelic users in “naturalistic settings” (meaning outside of a trial, but whether it’s for fun or ceremony is unknown) found them to be less “psychologically distressed” and suicidal than users of other substances.
Over at Imperial College London, their team of psychedelic scientists have been looking into this even further, trying to figure out how psilocybin works for depression, both on a psychological and neurological level. Clinical psychologist from the Imperial team, Rosalind Watts, PhD and her colleague Ashleigh Murphy-Beiner, spoke right after Utzinger at Horizons, and presented a paper Watts authored which gives practitioners a framework for facilitating psilocybin for depression therapy, called the “ACE (Accept, Connect, Embody) Model.”
Watts developed this idea after facilitating participants’ psilocybin experiences during Imperial’s first psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression trial. During “psilodep 1” 20 people were given psilocybin-assisted therapy, and 19 had decreased depression symptoms at week 1 and nearly half at week 5. Plus, none of their participants began a new course of anti-depressants until after week 5.
Now, she tells Psychedelics Today over the phone that Imperial is halfway through their second study on psilocybin for depression; they’ve seen 38 out of “65, possibly 70” participants in a trial that’s comparing psilocybin to an SSRI antidepressant for depression treatment efficacy.
Psilocybin for Depression: The ACE Model
The ACE Model (which should be published before the end of the year) highlights psilocybin’s ability to promote psychological flexibility as a key function in how this therapy works. Essentially folks move from a psychologically rigid place where they’re stuck ruminating on negative thoughts to a more flexible, open, and accepting place, post-psilocybin session.
Watts describes it to me in terms of a ski slope. That our minds, or our “default mode network” is like a skier who follows the same path in the snow until they’ve become deeply ingrained grooves. Then a psilocybin-assisted therapy experience is like a snowplow that comes in and evens out the entire mountain. And so folks are suddenly freed from their ruminative ruts and now have the option to ski anywhere (or think about anything) they please. “They feel that they can think a different way. That they can have new thoughts and see themselves slightly differently,” Watts says. “They can have a sense of space and freedom, mental clarity, not stuck in those deep groves.”
It’s this same idea that her colleague at Imperial, Robin Carhart-Harris, PhD, made famous, that psychedelic experiences can “reset the brain” or “shake up the snow globe” allowing for new thoughts and perspectives. “It’s a disruption,” says Watts. “It’s actually that disruption that allows for a reset.” Yet, she explains that doesn’t happen so easily for everyone, and she doesn’t think it’s healthy for folks to go into these experiences with that expectation, because if they aren’t magically “reset”, they can be extremely disappointed.
“They’re often in very, very desperate states. Sometimes they haven’t been outside of their homes for years and their relationships have suffered and they’re feeling very isolated,” Watts says of the depression participants. “The amount of expectation and pressure that is on them for those experiences is huge.”
Therefore, in the ACE Model, they frame the whole experience in terms of a journey – rather than a reset – for participants, to try and lower the pressure and encourage the acceptance of all experiences as they come. That includes accepting challenging material that may arise as well as not making participants feel like a failure for “resisting” the medicine; in the ACE Model, it’s all part of the experience. And that’s where preparation and integration become critical to the whole healing process.
“It needs to be a therapeutic intervention where that person’s unique set of fears and hopes can be gently sat with, processed and held so that the person that’s sitting with them has some sense of the complexity of the whole scenario,” Watts explains. “Because so often the healing isn’t actually just in the trip, it’s in the environment, it’s in the relationships that you have in the room. And actually, often it’s as much about the narrative, the story you co-construct [as the psilocybin].”
When all the pieces come together, when people feel fully supported and understood, then psilocybin can help folks out of depression by helping them see themselves and their lives more clearly. The process can also include planning actionable steps during integration that participants can take to improve happiness, like being less hard on themselves and spending more time with community or in nature.
Watts described the psilocybin healing process in a 2017 paper as people “moving from disconnection to connection” or “from avoidance [of emotions] to acceptance” and that’s very much part of what they try to instill during the therapy sessions. The ACE Model also includes guided meditation, and during a preparatory session they have participants visualize a journey, often a diving expedition where they’re encouraged to go deep into the dark parts of their mind in search of pearls of wisdom. The therapists remind divers that pearls are often found in scary, prickly oyster shells, so it may not always be easy, but the value will be great and worth the struggle.
This process of psilocybin-assisted therapy for depression is personal, and experts like Watts and Utzinger both point out its high rate of success is likely as much about the deep connections participants feel with their therapists as it is about the effects of psilocybin. Unlike taking anti-depressant medications for depression – which tend to numb people’s feelings – psilocybin and the therapy surrounding it encourage people to dig deep into their emotional worlds to try and heal themselves from the inside out.
The Future of Mushrooms for Depression
Even though psilocybin-assisted therapy is working for people in initial studies, it’s often not a permanent fix. Watts says many people from her trial have found that their depression symptoms come back after a few months. However, when I ask her about this, and about the potential future of legal mushrooms for depression therapy, she’s hopeful folks will have more options, including opportunities to do psilocybin sessions once every few months or so. She also adds that she thinks there’s lots of room to develop integration practices for more long-term depression relief, which could include integration groups that go out and do meaningful activities together, like planting trees.
Obviously this is just the beginning of scientific research looking into this treatment. And hopefully, as law and science catch up with nature, there will be more options for folks to access this therapy for depression in the near future.
About the Author
Michelle Janikian is a journalist focused on drug policy, trends, and education. She’s the author of Your Psilocybin Mushroom Companion, and her work has also been featured in Playboy, DoubleBlind Mag, High Times, Rolling Stone and Teen Vogue. One of her core beliefs is ending the prohibition of drugs can greatly benefit society, as long as we have harm reduction education to accompany it. Find out more on her website: www.michellejanikian.com or on Instagram @michelle.janikian.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Jac Harrison, a grammy nominated music producer. Kyle and Jac talk about music as therapy, how DMT mimics the near death experience, and how Jac produces music based on frequencies of mystical experiences.
3 Key Points:
Jac shares his story about his near death experience, and how DMT has been a therapeutic option for him to cope with his crippling anxiety and PTSD.
Jac is a music producer, who uses frequencies from mystical experiences to produce music. His music helps people with addiction, sleep issues, anxiety, and more.
Music is not an FDA approved medicine, but if there is music that tricks your mind into thinking you have taken a medicine, then it should be an option for those suffering.
Each song he did after that, catalogs the DMT experience he had
“An old projector TV, I had one for a while, it was great. The light came on and told me I needed to change the bulb. I changed the bulb and saw in a new and clear way forever. That’s what DMT is like.” – Jac
Kyle says that when he attended COSM for the DMT Spirit Molecule release party, Rick Strassman was there and said that the idea that DMT comes out of the pineal gland is just a hypothesis, and people took it and ran with it as truth
Frequency for Healing
After he smoked DMT, he heard this humming, and so he started humming and recording it as a frequency for the album
He took opium, and then figured out the frequency that substance performs at
He wrote music, based on the mathematical equation on how opium works and releases
He says it has helped others detox off of opium
Jac cant take mushrooms because he is allergic, so he takes DMT
Jac worked with a man who had gone through a ton of trauma, he had gone through combat
He kept reliving his combat trauma when he would try to go asleep
He smoked DMT, and really relived the experience, and was able to let go of it after that
“Your mind is a bitch.” – Jac
“If you can lock onto a memory, and dissociate it with something, and re-associate it with something else, Every time you can go back to that memory,you can relive it in a way that it’s tolerable, and get over it.” – Jac
Jac says without this, he would not be able to function, and he would be institutionalized
Jac’s music is Alex Grey’s form of art creation
It is made to go with journeywork experiences
It is supposed to mimic taking a pill, so you don’t need to take the actual pill
It is supposed to guide people when taking different psychedelics
His tracks match the frequency of specific psychedelics
Malta Hypogeum
The Malta Hypogeum, the oracle chamber, is a cave with naturally occurring frequencies
Raymond Reif is an underestimated person in history
He beat cancer using frequencies in the 30’s and 40’s
“If we’re not going to someone to get drugs for something that we need drugs for, and solving our problems using plant based medicines, music therapy, and frequencies, we are much better off.” – Jac
Jac came across psychedelics when trying to treat crippling anxiety
Kyle is the first person he has told this NDE story to
Alzheimers is not a neurological problem, it’s a perception problem
Psychedelic medicine should be used for research to treat cognitive health problems, PTSD, alzheimers, etc
“If the earth gives us something for our body, we should be able to take that at the same time we are able to take modern medicine.” – Jac
Jac says that he started doing this type of work as more of an Atheist, and after the psychedelic experiences, he says he has become more spiritual
Intuition
Jac says that his intuition and discernment came after his near death experience
Kyle says that this happens after mystical experiences, we become more in tune with what is going on around us
“I believe that we have something in us, that is triggered, when we have a fear of death.” – Jac
Final thoughts
Jac recommends Relief as the first track for listeners
He extends himself to people who are heavily anxious, have severe PTSD, or depressed, to come to him, and he will make music for them
He said that this is not medicine, but if there is music that tricks your mind into thinking you have taken a medicine, then it should be an option for those suffering
Having spent most of his adolescent life medicated to treat ADD/ADHD, Jac developed a dependency on the medications and could not function without them. When he stopped using them, his anxiety was so bad that he was diagnosed with PTSD in 2009; so he took his love for music with his understanding of mathematics and developed music to help himself get off all the medication. Mind Toy Box is the result of his work.
This is the fourth and final blog of a podcast recorded in John Cobb’s apartment in Claremont, California. This was recorded during a small weekend conference on psychedelics titled “Exceptional Experience Conference.” You can listen to the full talk in this episode of Psychedelics Today.
John Boswell Cobb Jr. is an American theologian, philosopher, and environmentalist. Cobb is often regarded as the preeminent scholar in the field of process philosophy and process theology, the school of thought associated with the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.
John Cobb: Obviously, I’m not going to put this forward as a great psychedelic experience, it still doesn’t feel like it’s just simply my talking to myself. It feels like I didn’t know what to do. I hadn’t thought about this before. Suddenly, yes, of course, that’s what I need to do.
Kyle: It feels like it comes from somewhere else, but it is inside.
John Cobb: But of course somewhere else is not as special somewhere else.
Kyle: Right.
John Cobb: It doesn’t come out of my normal ego consciousness. It feels like that there’s a wisdom in it that was not my wisdom. There’s an otherness about it.
Kyle: Right. And that it’s coming from somewhere.
John Cobb: I know. They’re coming from somewhere, it is immediately… Vision is so spatially oriented that if we talked in a visual language somewhere else is going to be very prominent. With just hearing music, the location of the music isn’t that important, is it? It’s the music in your ear or is it inside your body? Is it in the airwaves around you? Is it where the orchestra is? Well, yeah, any and all of the above. But you see a book, all right, that book is on top of that book. It’s so very clearly located and each object that you see has boundaries. And so that just creates a language and a culture.
The difference between Gautama and the other great Indian thinkers, for Gautama when you seek the self, there is nothing. But the others there is Atman, and Atman is the same as Brahman. The ultimate substance. And Gautama and many of the Buddhists assume that if you conceptualize at all, you will be misled. That just shows how powerful concept and visualizing is such a scene too. Whereas I belong to the view that it should be possible to have… like Bohm was saying, “Okay, let’s just use gerunds.” I don’t think it’s impossible to conceive process. That’s the part, I hope you understand, this is not me anti-Buddhist. I think it’s amazing that 2,500 years ago somebody was able to think so deeply. I regret that the tendency even today is to become anti-concept, when what we need are better concepts.
Joe: Yeah. I’m feeling like you say you can’t skillfully conceptualize process, but perhaps it’s more about feeling like
John Cobb: You can conceptualize feelings.
Kyle: Right. True.
John Cobb: It’s just that our Indo-European languages haven’t, so you can’t quickly think of examples.
Joe: That’s interesting.
John Cobb: And conceptualize maybe the wrong term. But I don’t like a kind of retreat into mysticism. If you say it’s mystical, then you say you can’t think about it anymore. I think we can think about it, and if you don’t want to call it concepts, call it whatever you want. But we can think about processes. And science needs to think about them. And thinking about them doesn’t necessary… I mean, what it has so often meant is locate it in a sight oriented world or substance oriented world, then you’ll see then you’re not really thinking about them anymore. Anyway, that’s why David, I think, has done a remarkable job of thinking about process. And has given us a language that can help us do it. And I think that’s very useful.
Joe: Yeah, I think it’s really helped me quite a bit with perhaps handling psychedelic experiences with a little more grace because it’s not so… Just Lenny has put a lot of this knowledge on us and it seems like it’s really helpful. And it’s hard to put, for me, at this point, to really phrase that well. But it’s certainly been a Boon.
Johanna: What was the one thing that was helpful for you? I’m sure there’s lots of things.
Joe: Lenny’s complicated. And as a result that…. probably more of a gerund type attitude towards the thing as opposed to this is this, this is an Apple. It’s more like, wow, this is just a dynamic flow of things through this very complicated system.
John Cobb: I see. I don’t know Chinese, so my statement that it is not so substance oriented. But when I’ve tried to talk about this with Shahar he points out that the same character can function as either.
Joe: Oh, wow.
John Cobb: An example of a word that this has happened to in English is the word pastor. It was a noun for a long time. You were a pastor. But now people talk about, “I’m going to pastor such and such a church.” No, I think that that gets closer to reality to say a person is a pastor, what does it mean? It means that he pastors. But when you locate it as a pastor, it’s just sort of strengthens this individualistic thinking rather than a focus on the activity.
Kyle: It is versus it’s doing or it’s happening.
John Cobb: Yeah. Well to pastor people means you listen to them when they have something to say and you hear them without judgment. I could go on and on. But that’s what a pastor does. And to call a pastor is really to be pointing into that dimension of activity. The same person who is a pastor is also a preacher, but unfortunately we have a verb to preach so we don’t say to preacher. I just wish there were more cases where I could point to how a noun has just come to be used as a verb. And there are others, but at the moment I’m not thinking of them.
Joe: Do you recall the first time you heard something that made you interested in the positive impact of psychedelics or anything around the beginning?
John Cobb: Lenny was certainly one of the early ones. But I don’t want to say his first because I just don’t know.
Johanna: Right. It was southern California in that period of time when it was probably pretty intense.
John Cobb: But obviously having him, he was really trying to convert me. I appreciated it. This is not a criticism. Anytime one discovers something that’s very helpful, one wants other people to benefit from it. So my relation to him was the first time this had become something that I really had to deal with. But that doesn’t mean I hadn’t heard of it before. Probably I had heard of it more negatively than positively. Because of course the hippie culture included some negatives. I grew up in a context where drinking was already a bad thing to do. And the tendency in circles I moved in, which by that time has ceased to be particularly strongly against drinking, was to associate alcohol and psychedelics.
I was quite sure alcohol did a lot of harm as well as working well for conviviality… You know what I mean. Of a mixture. So I thought psychedelics, and I had no doubt that some people had great experiences and other people that may found them very attractive, but it… Generally, I suspected that society was better off not to have it. So Lenny was probably the first person who really opened my eyes to the potential of very positive use.
I had another experience not too long after I came to Claremont. I had always assumed that civilization was a good thing. There was a professor at Pitzer College, who I worked with quite closely. We co-taught courses. He was very convinced that civilization was the basic evil. I’m not convinced. I mean I think every civilization we’ve had has been pretty horrible. I wouldn’t have said that if I hadn’t had to interact with him about that. But I think if there are people today of course, who just think we need to get rid of civilizations and then we’ll be all right. My impression is today it would be very remarkable if 10% of the world’s population survive without civilization.
Even though I appreciated his opening my eyes, I didn’t walk through that door. And the same thing was true with Lenny, I really appreciated his opening my eyes, but I didn’t walk through that door.
Kyle: I appreciate your openness and curiosity of the subject. For somebody that didn’t walk through the door, you seem to very curious about it.
John Cobb: I’m confident there’s much good that could come from it. And so when there are people who are using it for good, I want to be as supportive as I possibly can. A lot of people today will say, “Yes, we really need basic changes.” But you know what it means to make basic changes in worldview, and most of them don’t. So it’s very comfortable to be in a group of people who when they talk about changes, they know what the-
Joe: Extraordinary change.
John Cobb: Yes.
Joe: Yeah.
John Cobb: Whitehead has made me understand what I think would be the changes that might make us behave in responsible ways. So I don’t feel the necessity of having unusual experiences.
Johanna: And what would be some of those changes?
John Cobb: Have to change from our substance thinking to our process thinking. This would be a change from our thinking of every individual as self-contained, to understanding that we are all our products of our relationships with each other, and that the human individual is… Well, for one thing, I mean from Whiteheadian viewpoint, any individual is the many becoming one. That’s what it is to be an individual. So to be an individual is to be part of everything, is to have everything being part of us.
Economics, as an example, I think economics is the worst, because it is the most powerful shaper of the world and is the worst expression of the university. It assumes radically individual and really the only relationships that count are economic relationships. I think those are just two absolutely erroneous views. If they are not changed, then they have to be changed existentially, not just, oh, that philosophy might work better or something. And it’s because what you do helps to make the existential change that I in no way want to say, “Oh, all we have to do is to do philosophy.” No, no. I think the change has to go way beyond that.
I had one experience out there, which made me very high. So in that sense, but it had nothing, it wasn’t a matter of breathing exercises. It was being in a group where I just felt completely accepted, completely loved. I think that can happen just by the way a group of human beings relate to one another. I was still feeling that deep comfort when I came home. It took my wife a little while to puncture the balloon. So I’m not suggesting that everybody should always be in that state, but nevertheless that’s a feeling of being one with that group of people that people need. The church should be doing this. I’m not trying to push me into the church, you should understand that’s important for me in my understanding.
When I was in the army, one night I said, “Kneel beside my bed.” And the whole room just simply itself felt like it was filled with love and acceptance. You’re not just an individual when that kind of thing happens. You are part of something else. So I’m just saying you could call them psychedelic experiences, if you want, they don’t have many of the characteristics that people describe as psychedelic, but they are experiences of a different possibility that is still a perfectly human possibility.
There is a woman by the name of [unclear Thandeka 01:13:05]. She’s Afro-American and Bishop Tutu. He gave her the name. And she’s spent a lot of times studying neuroscience and gotten getting acquainted with key people in the field. And she’s created an organization called Love Beyond Belief. She seems to be able to help. She’s Unitarian, and she has worked with Unitarian churches, which are not the places that I would have thought, which I say most readily, but sometimes it turns out that people who have been putting all their emphasis upon reason and rationality and so forth, other ones who are really ready for something else. She thinks it’s possible to organize a service of worship in such a way that people will really existentially feel loved. And to whatever extent she can do that, I think that will accomplish much of what I’m interested in. But obviously a number of people in this group, and in almost any group I’m at, have had a completely different experience of a church. That church is a place of judgment and condemnation and guilt and all of that. And that is of course the absolutely opposite of what is needed.
I think the church has great potential for good. It has great potential for evil. It’s like almost everything else. Education has great potentials for good, great potentials for evil. And I think the modern world has tended to bring out the potential for evil in both. But that doesn’t mean, I think, in the middle ages everything was wonderful. I really think Europe was better off in the middle ages than it has been in modernity. But I’m not interested in going back.
John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D, is a founding co-director of the Center for Process Studies and Process & Faith. He has held many positions, such as Ingraham Professor of Theology at the School of Theology at Claremont, Avery Professor at the Claremont Graduate School, Fullbright Professor at the University of Mainz, Visiting Professor at Vanderbilt, Harvard Divinity, Chicago Divinity Schools. His writings include: Christ in a Pluralistic Age; God and the World; For the Common Good. Co-winner of Grawemeyer Award of Ideas Improving World Order.
This is part three in a four-part series recorded in John Cobb’s apartment in Claremont, California. This was recorded during a small weekend conference on psychedelics titled “Exceptional Experience Conference.” You can listen to the full talk in this episode of Psychedelics Today.
John Boswell Cobb Jr. is an American theologian, philosopher, and environmentalist. Cobb is often regarded as the preeminent scholar in the field of process philosophy and process theology, the school of thought associated with the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.
John Cobb: There were lots of biologists who have worked with us that they rather resent being constantly pushed into mechanism when in fact they’re dealing with organisms. That organisms are only complex mechanisms. A lot of biologists know that isn’t right. So we have a chance of making breakthroughs, whereas I don’t think Rosemary Ruether, brilliant as she is… I hope you understand that I’m picking people. We get it. We take her with us when we are promoting process theology. Even if she will say, “Oh, I’m not interested in process theology.” What she says is process theology, so we don’t (laughs)… So the label is not that important, the insights are important. And in a foundational way, they are common sense.
I think the common sense is that our knowledge of each other is not just by visual and auditory clues. But people have been told so long that it is. If you could just have people who never went to school (laughs)….
Kyle: What else would it be informed by if it wasn’t visual and auditory?
John Cobb: Just by our immediate experience of each other.
Kyle: So a felt experience?
John Cobb: Yeah. I think that we’ve had an experience of being in a group where when you walk in, you feel a climate there. If you go into a room where everybody is angry with everybody, of course, you are told that you really are get visual and auditory clues. It doesn’t feel like that. You just feel this is not… The vibrations here are not good. Okay. So we need to deschool. Are you familiar with Ivan Illich’s book, Deschooling Society?
Joe: It’s great.
John Cobb: But of course we also need schools, and there’s no reason, in principle, that schooling has to be indoctrination into a bad worldview. It could be something else. And there are a few schools that are already doing something else.
Kyle: I think a lot about the education system, but I’m curious what would your vision of an education system be if it’s not working right now?
John Cobb: Well, I think the one that Matthew Siegel teaches at in San Francisco CIIS. CIIS and Naropa are examples of a different educational system. I have not studied either one of them enough to hold up one and say it’s better than another. Another educational system that I think well of is The Great Books Program. It needs revision because in the past it’s only been the great Western books. And at Chicago when I was there, the college was operated on a great books basis. And I hope by now they have incorporated great books from other parts of the world.
It’s very different. I’m just saying, I think there are different kinds of educational systems that are better than what we have. If I’m just going to have the opportunity to create a school, it’s going to be a school that teaches ecological civilization. Because in my mind, a healthy human survival is a goal that ought not to be regarded as an eccentric and marginal one, but ought to be regarded as what all we human beings ought to be getting behind collectively together. And if you have a school for that, again, curriculum could really be quite varied, but you would try to see what do people most need? And I think that the production and consumption and sharing of food would be a very, very central part of it. But also we need to understand technology and understand how it can be used for truly humane purposes. We need to understand that capitalism has ignored much of reality.
In economics 101, you can find out what the assumptions are. They are wrong. So people should be told what the assumptions have been and why they’re wrong. Reflect together about better assumptions and what their implications are. How we can go about changing. I’m not giving you a curriculum, but you will understand. I’d try to get the people who know the most about curriculum in the abstract in general. What students at a certain age are likely to be ready to do. All those things are relevant to developing a curriculum. My role is deconstruction. I just want to make it clear what’s going on now is absolutely absurd.
Enlightenment is the worst curse of humanity. We have been enlightened into not believing all kinds of things. The disappearance of subjects from the world of actuality. If that’s enlightened, I don’t want to be enlightened. But I think we need a lot of reflection about the language we use. And of course language is a very popular topic. But the questions that I think are most important are very rarely asked.
Joe: One of my favorite parts of Whitehead is the re-framing of language. In kind of your book, Whitehead Word Book, that’s a really foundational thing. Our language carries weight, our words carry inertia that we’re not aware of.
John Cobb: And I’m sure that the reason we have 36 universities with Center for Process Studies in China and zero in the United States is that the Chinese… The idea that process is more fundamental than substance doesn’t seem strange to them. To us, we know it ain’t so because we got to talk about books and tables. Those are the really real things. And how do we know that? We know because we’ve been speaking that language the whole time.
I’m sure language is important. Western intellectual history I have increasingly come to think of as for a long time a marriage of Hebrew hearing oriented with Greek sight oriented. And hearing oriented has made history important. And now, the universities have succeeded in excluding hearing oriented ideas completely. It’s a complete victory of Cartesian sight oriented thinking. History is no longer taught.
Sight oriented people can know that there have been past events and they can study past events, but history as meaningful, as helping you to locate yourself in a long process, that comes only from Israel. And that used to be very important. I mean a lot of very secular… I mean you didn’t have to be believing Jew and believing Christian in the West to think history was important. If you’d think Hegle and Marx, I mean these are all history thinking people.
We need to understand how things got to be the way they are. What are the issues today coming out of that history? And I think that’s very important. But the university has finally excluded it almost completely. You see for science only what can be repeated in the laboratory (is true). First of all, what can be repeated. But the whole point of history is that events cannot be repeated. That automatically excludes history. Excludes a lot of other things too.
Kyle: I’m curious, you said you haven’t had any experience with psychedelics, but you feel really hopeful about their reintegration in society.
John Cobb: Yes, if they reintroduction in the way this group would do it (regarding a private conference at Claremont College). Obviously if they are reintroduced primarily for the profit of the reintroducer, I’m not confident it would end up being a benefit. The more people use the most expensive drugs, the more profit.
Joe: Right. And you know, skillfully used, you probably need less than 10 LSD experiences to heal most of what you’ve got. And to do some really creative work. Some people just have one and that’s it for their life. That’s a very different thing than drugs that are around for our whole life.
John Cobb: That would be sort of like a near death experience. One is usually enough.
Kyle: I’d say so.
Johanna: Were you there for Kyle’s story? Kyle had one at age 16.
John Cobb: No. I was not there yesterday afternoon.
Kyle: I got in a snowboarding accident and ended up rupturing my spleen, and I lost about five to five and a half pints of blood internally. I guess like where it started to become mystical was when I was in the MRI machine, CAT Scan machine, and they were trying to figure out where the blood was coming from. I was on the other side of the room with the doctors, but I was also in my body at the same time. I kind of describe it as like an orb of light kind of surrounded me, and a voice kind of appeared and said… It wasn’t an external voice. It seemed a little bit more internal, or maybe it felt experienced. I don’t know how to really put it into words.
John Cobb: You felt internal, but nevertheless, it wasn’t just you talking to yourself.
Kyle: Yeah. And something just said, “You’re going home, going back to the stars where y’all come from. And this is just a transition. The more you relax into it, the easier it’s going to be. This physical life’s going to cease to exist, but you’ll continue on.” And it was a really blissful kind of experience at that point, and I got excited, I was like, “Oh, I’m going home.” But then coming back to reality, it was difficult to reintegrate that.
John Cobb: Within the experience itself, there was nothing about coming back to reality?
Kyle: No, there’s a-
John Cobb: Because many people report a kind of moment when there’s a decision made.
Kyle: Yeah. I think they caught me at the right time as I was really starting to slip away. They put me under anesthesia, but I didn’t remember anything. There was a felt sense that I went somewhere and I talked to something. But I couldn’t remember it. And when you say, we’re so fixed on the visual aspect, I mean, that’s what I think irritated me the most that sometimes people report going down a light or they see something. This was a felt experience. Like I knew something happened, but I couldn’t describe it.
John Cobb: In the auditory world, the location of the words… in the auditory, sometimes a meaning is communicated. And if you explain to somebody else, of course you have to put it into words, but it’s initial reality is not words. I think a lot of the time in the Bible when it says, God spoke to me and said such and such, people just felt called. And I’ve had that kind of experience. I’ve never had hearing in the liberal sense. But I just sometimes sit quietly for a while and then it just comes to me, there’s something I need to do.
John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D, is a founding co-director of the Center for Process Studies and Process & Faith. He has held many positions, such as Ingraham Professor of Theology at the School of Theology at Claremont, Avery Professor at the Claremont Graduate School, Fullbright Professor at the University of Mainz, Visiting Professor at Vanderbilt, Harvard Divinity, Chicago Divinity Schools. His writings include: Christ in a Pluralistic Age; God and the World; For the Common Good. Co-winner of Grawemeyer Award of Ideas Improving World Order.
This is part two in a four-part series recorded in John Cobb’s apartment in Claremont, California. This was recorded during a small weekend conference on psychedelics titled “Exceptional Experience Conference.” You can listen to the full talk in this episode of Psychedelics Today.
John Boswell Cobb Jr. is an American theologian, philosopher, and environmentalist. Cobb is often regarded as the preeminent scholar in the field of process philosophy and process theology, the school of thought associated with the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead. Cobb is the author of more than fifty books. In 2014, Cobb was elected to the prestigious American Academy of Arts and Sciences.A unifying theme of Cobb’s work is his emphasis on ecological interdependence—the idea that every part of the ecosystem is reliant on all the other parts. Cobb has argued that humanity’s most urgent task is to preserve the world on which it lives and depends, an idea which his primary influence, Whitehead, described as “world-loyalty”.
Kyle: Do you think what’s going on in the mind, say like neurotransmitters or electrical activity firing, that’s creating this reality, or the experience is having an influence on the neurochemistry?
John Cobb: It’s all experience. It’s a question of whether this is the experience of the neurons or of the psyche, and I think the evidence is that the psyche plays a role. One of the first people we worked with, a very famous physiological psychologist. And there was a man who did a lot of experiments on the split-brain. I’m sure there were other people. I think the name begins with an S, but anyway. He was over here at Cal Tech, so he was more accessible to work with. He really appreciated working with us because he found he could now formulate his findings. He was very, very clear that the evidence that he had was that conscious experience had a causal role.
It’s just common sense. I decided to put my watch back on and stopped fiddling with it and I put it back on. Amazing. Pure coincidence in terms of… Since purpose cannot play a role. I call it the metaphysics. It was wrong when it was only applied to other animals. It deepened the anthropocentrism since it was an only human experience that counted. But it’s just so absurd. Scientists who are busy engineering genetic change tell us that genetic change has no purpose. Purpose plays no role in the genetic change. I don’t think they believe it, but that’s what they have to teach.
Kyle: What do you mean by no purpose in the genetic change?
John Cobb: Because purpose cannot have a causal effect in the Cartesian world. Now, the other way they would say, “Oh, but I know that my purpose is actually completely the result of mechanical relationships between my neurons.”
Johanna: I have a question about the actual occasions.
John Cobb: Yes.
Johanna: So what you say that the human being is an actual occasion?
John Cobb: No, I would say the psyche consists of a series of actual occasions.
Johanna: All right. So could you elaborate on this definition of actual occasions? I know that it’s a really hard concept.
John Cobb: Well, an absolutely basic question in traditional philosophy, I don’t know what’s taught under the rubric of philosophy today, I won’t address, is the question of what kinds of things are in and of themselves actual that would be in distinction from things which can be divided up into other entities. So an actual occasion would not be divisible into other actual occasions. And of course for a long time, beginning with some of the Greeks, the answer was an atom. An atom is indivisible. But that doesn’t keep it from actually existing.
Now for Whitehead, the word atom is so bound up with substantive thinking. For me to simply say an actual occasion is an atom would be confusing. But if you take the basic meaning of atom, the actual occasion is the basic unit of actuality. And of course saying that is an alternative to a substance way of viewing, and it doesn’t exclude the possibility other people will come up with other theories.
But I mentioned Quarks and Quanta, not that I know they cannot be divided further, but right now there is no clear indication that Quark is made up of other things. So it seems to be a unit of reality. So when we deal with living things, obviously if they are like us, have brains and so forth, we assume they have a psychic life, and the occasions of psychic life will also be atomic.
One of the things that I raised in one discussion that there was some evidence that plants also have some kind of unified experience. I don’t think it’s been studied enough to be making any clear pronouncements. But I don’t know whether I mentioned in the larger groups of Findhorn. Have you heard of Findhorn?
Johanna: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Cobb: Okay. Well, the people there commune with their plants. They’ve been doing it for 50 years, so it’s not a fly by night. I think there are a lot of people who have a feeling about the tree that it’s not just a lot of cells interacting, but maybe the tree itself may have some purpose or something to say. But that’s all of what are the actual occasions, is an entirely different question from what it means to say it’s an actual occasion. Is that okay or do you-
Johanna: That’s fine. Thank you.
John Cobb: They’re atoms.
Johanna: Yeah.
John Cobb: And when you talk about a society of atoms like the sofa or the chair or the table, which are the kinds of things that standard brand philosophy, for a long time, held up. They’re clearly not atoms. Society as I was indicating, if you have enough actual entities, their dynamism disappears in the society as a whole. Making negative statements that are always very questionable, it’s hard for me to think that a stone is an experiencing entity. I think the molecules are. And I’m sure cells are.
Kyle: Okay, so the rock as the whole isn’t, but the molecules and the atoms are?
John Cobb: That’s right. I’m sure that those cells are influenced by the emotions of people. I don’t think a rock is, could be wrong, and it could be that the molecules are slightly, but that’s just canceled out. But the plant organization, I don’t think it gets canceled out. What happens to the cells affects the way they relate to each other and the total development of the plant. I hope you understand, again, having a particular conceptuality does not tell you just how it’s going to map out on real things, but Whitehead, so many things, well these are empirical questions and they’re important empirical questions. When I think some of the evidence is so great that I just go ahead pretend I know.
Joe Moore: You can see how this worldview seems very psychedelic.
John Cobb: That’s what we keep hearing. I mean even we who haven’t, who don’t know that we have psychedelic experiences, that the things that people report sound true to us. And if they are true, then how you got there is also of great interest.
Joe Moore: Did you have the opportunity to communicate with Stan Grof at all?
John Cobb: You know, I may. I’ve been at Esalen twice, and I kind of think he was there one time. I didn’t have any real conversation.
Joe: Okay. John Buchanan brought him here, I’m sure you’re aware, in 2015, for the big conference.
John Cobb: That’s right.
Johanna: You were very busy. Thousands of people.
John Cobb: I did not have conversations with…
Joe: Thankfully you did (have him at the conference). It was really great. Lenny and John Buchanan have been really pushing Whitehead on Stan, which is really interesting.
John Cobb: Yes. I mean I would like to offer it. If people are not interested, that’s-
Joe: Yeah. I don’t know if pushing is the right word.
John Cobb: It’s perfectly okay. Yeah. But I think when people who have had the experience hear that there is a philosophy which works very well with the cutting edges of science, that they’ll likely define that something positive. That doesn’t mean they have to go spend a lot of time reading Whitehead. And there are so many people who when I listen to them I would say eco-feminism. I’ll give a particular example. The eco-feminists I’ve known best, I mean the theological world, but they’re very strong eco-feminist. Mary Daly and Rosemary Ruether are two of them. Now Mary Daly knew some Whitehead and liked it, but Rosemary Ruether, everything she writes sounds just right to us. She said, “I will not read a word of Whitehead.” So I don’t think that Whitehead is the one and only way of arriving at what I… The reason I push him is that I’m very concerned by the institutions, and especially educational institutions that they have enormous power over what is considered good policy and so forth. And they are so wrong about it. If you say, “Oh, but psychedelic experience shows that’s a mistake.” It doesn’t really open the door for further conversation.
If you have a philosophy that can make more sense out of physical evidence that is taken seriously by physicists, I’m announcing that they are very, very slow to be interested. But at least among quantum physicists, Whitehead’s name is known and appreciated. And that could be an opening wedge that would mean that physics as a whole would adopt an organic model rather than a mechanical. That’s the usual way. We put it and fit.
John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D, is a founding co-director of the Center for Process Studies and Process & Faith. He has held many positions, such as Ingraham Professor of Theology at the School of Theology at Claremont, Avery Professor at the Claremont Graduate School, Fullbright Professor at the University of Mainz, Visiting Professor at Vanderbilt, Harvard Divinity, Chicago Divinity Schools. His writings include: Christ in a Pluralistic Age; God and the World; For the Common Good. Co-winner of Grawemeyer Award of Ideas Improving World Order.
This is part one in a four-part series. Kyle, Joe and Johanna Hilla were able to spend time recording with John B. Cobb at his apartment in Claremont, California. This was during a small weekend conference on psychedelics titled “Exceptional Experience Conference.” You can listen to the full talk in this episode of Psychedelics Today.
John Boswell Cobb Jr. is an American theologian, philosopher, and environmentalist. Cobb is often regarded as the preeminent scholar in the field of process philosophy and process theology, the school of thought associated with the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead. Cobb is the author of more than fifty books. In 2014, Cobb was elected to the prestigious American Academy of Arts and Sciences.A unifying theme of Cobb’s work is his emphasis on ecological interdependence—the idea that every part of the ecosystem is reliant on all the other parts. Cobb has argued that humanity’s most urgent task is to preserve the world on which it lives and depends, an idea which his primary influence, Whitehead, described as “world-loyalty”.
John Cobb: The senses heighten and intensify the connection on particular kinds of connection. The eyes are obviously very sensitive to particular wavelengths, and the ears are sensitive to other wavelengths and so forth. But that this is to think that sight is the most direct relationship to what’s going on externally, doesn’t make sense. Sight requires… I mean there’s lots that happens before what we call sight occurs. And those happenings are more fundamental than seeing. But the tendency of British empiricism has been to start with the data of sight. Philosophy should go deeper than that. What label can we give to the most fundamental relationship? First, we need to describe that relationship. The most fundamental relationship is any happening, the world is made up of happenings, rather than substances.
Any happening enters into its successors. And one of the best kinds of meditations in terms of conscious experience is to think of what’s happening. As you listen to music in any given moment, there’s just one tone, but you don’t really just hear a tone. If you heard just a tone and then another tone, you wouldn’t hear music. You hear at least the musical phrase, and the whole musical phrase is still in the experience at the time that the concluding note is being struck. So the experiences of the previous tones do not end when that experience ends; it gets transmitted.
Our experience is the inclusion of elements of previous experiences. It’s very much like Buddhism in this respect. Whitehead calls the fundamental relationship of inclusion including part of the previous experience a prehension. So a prehension is the way in which one experience enters into successor experiences. And he thinks this is what’s going on also in the subatomic world. So the word, “prehension” is a cause. It’s a causal relationship. But the image of course that Hume was looking for just looking in the wrong place.
So if the world is made up of prehension, then what, in any given moment, is prehended, and Whitehead says everything. That is every past event leaves some trace and has some trace in the present. In that context, you can try to figure out why sometimes particular past events sort of revivifies itself in the present.
You could study it under what circumstances, there’s some event from your childhood all of a sudden. But it doesn’t mean it has had no relationship to your experience. The conscious experience is, of course, a very special form of experience, and the boundary between what is conscious and unconscious is a very fuzzy one.
So when we talk about everything being experience, we certainly don’t mean everything is conscious. Sadly among a lot of philosophers, the only use of the word experience is referring to conscious experience. And then there’s no understanding of Whitehead’s view.
Since everything is a synthesis of relations to everything in the past, you have much more material to work with when you’re trying to explain experience. Now an experience is not exhausted by its relation to the past. Whitehead calls the relatedness to the past, physical prehension. We are prehending actual entities. But we also prehend potentialities. Now those potentialities may also be prehended as realized actualities in the past. So it doesn’t mean that every conceptual feeling is of something that is radically novel, but it is being experienced simply as a potential, not as actual. And Whitehead thinks this is present even in very elementary matters. Waves of vibration. He liked the term. It’s a very large part of the world we live in.
And then when you go back and forth between two states, this is the minimum of novelty that actual entities can have. Both states, neither state is novel, it’s constantly recurrence. He thinks that without some variation from moment to moment, nothing really happens. So this kind of novelty is to be found all the way down in the quantum world. And though as the description of the quantum world, so the indeterminacy and all of that certainly suggests that this is not unreal. Most of the developments in science since his time tend to fit very well into his ideas. Quantum was just on the edge coming into existence when he was writing. He wrote very extensively about relativity, very little about quantum. But many quantum physicists are quasi-Whiteheadians. David Bohm, we worked with a lot because he came and spent two weeks in the house next door to me and we talked all afternoon, day after day. So I really thought I got acquainted with him.
He was very process-oriented. He actually thought that we needed to change our language. He thought we could do it simply by shifting to gerunds from nouns. Because gerunds suggest something’s happening. Nouns suggest something IS. And this has distorted our understanding of the world in which we live.
So from the Whiteheadian side, any experience, however weird, needs to be taken seriously, that happened. If that is experienced, however confusing it is, however misdirecting it may be, nevertheless, if it happened, it happened, and that has to be taken account of. And his combination of the inclusion of actuality and potentiality usually makes it possible to figure it out. And of course, if it’s too much potentiality and too little grounded in actuality, you better be careful of it. But on the other hand, if you don’t have the potentiality, then you ultimately just have a completely deterministic universe. Then you can’t explain a great many of the most important phenomena.
Johanna: Does Whitehead relate potentiality to his ideas about intuition?
John Cobb: The word intuition, you don’t find in Whitehead. I shouldn’t say that. It’s a very limited word in Whitehead. But I think people who have studied about intuition in other traditions usually find that what they mean by intuition is a form of prehension. Intuitions, I think, can be both of pure potentials and can be intuitions about other people. Yeah.
I mean obviously proximity is likely to make something stronger. My psyche can prehend your psyche when you’re sitting there and I’m here. And also around the world even it could… It becomes less and less likely when there were no other supportive… I think when you’re actually talking to somebody, obviously you have visual cues and auditory cues and it enriches the connection, but that’s not the basis of it. That there is an actual occasion over there that is experiencing hearing me and seeing me is intuitively about a certain… It’s really in many ways more certain than that’s a patch of blue. I’m more likely to be wrong about the color than I am about the sheer being, sheer occurrence. So obviously a lot of what are called paranormal experiences are not magical or supernatural or something.
So many things that the university just won’t touch for a Whiteheadian point of view should be regarded as empirical theories. The fact that somebody claims to have seen something or done something doesn’t mean that’s true because there are plenty of illusion. But rather than dismiss it, they just study it and test it rigorously. I mean, it’s not that you just immediately are gullible about everything,
I mean, frankly I have until yesterday paid very little attention to astrology. Now as a Whiteheadian, that does not mean that I think that the planets have no effect on us whatsoever. I’ve just rather assumed it was a rather minor matter. I’m much more open now to learning more about the connections as they say. But just the fact that you find thoughtful people have developed elaborate theories about these connections doesn’t make them right. But it should mean well, that’s interesting. What evidence is there?
And somebody was telling me that… You will see that as far as names are concerned, I’m absolutely terrible. But the woman who spoke (Becca Tarnas)
That she had told him, I don’t think it was either reviewed.
The year he was born, correctly. Just on the basis of very little knowledge, well, no, when I hear that I think, wow, okay, there’s more to this than I thought. But that doesn’t mean Whitehead says anything about this. It’s just he… If we prehend everything that has ever happened, however trivial, then to know in advance that this couldn’t be true is ruled out.
So on the other side, since he does not privilege our standard sensory experience, then if people started talking about having very different sensory experiences, there’s no bias against it. I’m saying what Whitehead offers, and since he makes very explicit points, we need to study experience, drunk experience, sober, he doesn’t say experience in the psychedelics and not, but it’s obviously included.
And then while he’s experienced drunk, does not seem to give one insights into reality through any very… I mean it tells you something about the human body and how our body chemistry affects neuronal activity. I mean, in that sense it cannot be understood, but that it gives you a vision of reality that happens to be much more like Whitehead’s, naturally increases interest on the part of the Whitehead is.
I mean, most people who’ve had drugs feel a deep relationality that is not given to us. An insight, for example. And the world has much more dynamic, and Whitehead shows us how vision abstracts from the dynamism rather than commuting the dynamism.
So I think Lenny can tell you. I mean, he wrote an article that we published in The Center for Process Studies that is using process categories to explain the psychedelic experience. And John Buchanan has been working on that, it got many people. And of course, the psychedelic experience is different with different people. So it’s different with different drugs and all of that. So you can explain one experience, you haven’t explained all. And obviously it can be just as misleading about what the world is like as normal experiences. So the interaction should give rise to hypotheses for testing.
But if someone is already convinced that our interconnections are far more extensive than if somebody says, “Oh, I had this vision and I saw everything related to everything else.” We Whiteheadians are not going to test it, we just say, “Good, I’m glad you’ve see it. I wish I could see it that clearly. I believe it.” One of the very important features of Whitehead is to distinguish a complex society. I mean, the table is a complex society. And if we talk about pan-experientialism, we’re not saying that the table has had the experience. But we are saying that if you analyze the table into the quanta and quarks, that these are dynamic entities.
So when you put together a lot of dynamic as it is, and even as indeterminate as it is. I mean, one of the ironies is that predictions based on theories in quantum, they call it quantum mechanics, but it ain’t mechanic. And they develop a formula and these tend not to be more precise than when you’re just dealing with the big objects. So you might think that if you have a little bit of indeterminacy in the entities that then this could be multiplied, but statistics don’t really work that way.
I mean, if you flip a coin, you flip a coin 10 times, it wouldn’t be too surprising if you got seven on one side three on the other. If you flip it a hundred times, it would be very surprising if you’ve got a 70 on one side and 30 on the other. If you did it 10,000 times, it would be utterly amazing. And you would be quite sure this was no longer neutral, that there was something about the coins or something that was causing this difference. So when you get trillions of cases, as you would in a table, that it comes out so that the prediction can be so precise, doesn’t mean it’s a mistake to think that there was uncertainty in the individual cases.
Physics has opened up vast amounts of things. From a Whiteheadian point of view contemporary physics would be almost universally valid if the world were composed entirely of physical feelings.
Kyle Buller: What do you mean by physical feeling?
John Cobb: Physical feelings are feelings of actual occasions. This term for what is, is an actual occasion. Human experience is an actual occasion.
Johanna: So what would be opposed to the physical feeling?
John Cobb: Conceptual feelings are feelings of potentials.
Johanna: Right.
John Cobb: And he (Whitehead) thinks now our feelings are potentials in every actual occasion. So physics is never adequate to any individual entity. And the attempt to make physics apply, standard physics, of course I mean, apply to the quantum world is a total failure. Almost everybody agrees on that.
John Cobb: I think the attempt to make ordinary physics apply to human experience, which is the task assigned to Neuroscientists. The neuroscientists I have known, and they’re obviously a select group, on the whole, they’re completely convinced that subjective experience has a causal role to play in the world. Whitehead thinks it has the causal role to play in the world.
But as long as you are only talking about the experience of past entities, you can avoid it. But when they found out that when they study Zen practitioners and discovered that their brain’s shapes are changed by their practice, I just don’t see how they can keep on saying that subjective experience has no causal role. And they don’t. I mean the people who are doing these experiments, they said they have to be very careful how they word this when they go back to their… One of my many reasons for not thinking highly of the American university. It is more committed to metaphysics than it is to empirical study. Really is.
John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D, is a founding co-director of the Center for Process Studies and Process & Faith. He has held many positions, such as Ingraham Professor of Theology at the School of Theology at Claremont, Avery Professor at the Claremont Graduate School, Fullbright Professor at the University of Mainz, Visiting Professor at Vanderbilt, Harvard Divinity, Chicago Divinity Schools. His writings include: Christ in a Pluralistic Age; God and the World; For the Common Good. Co-winner of Grawemeyer Award of Ideas Improving World Order.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe sit down to explore psychedelic integration. They cover different frameworks, resources and benefits of integration and coaching services.
3 Key Points:
Integration is commonly confused as post-session only, but it includes pre-session, self care, and really begins at the point you decide to engage in self-work.
It is important to remember the GPA framework when determining where you are at in the integration process, G – grounding, P – processing, A – action.
Psychedelics Today offers many resources to assist with the integration process; Navigating Psychedelics Online Course (and Live Course), Coaching and Integration Calls, and books, Trip Journal and Integration Workbook.
Kyle says his near death experience shows up in his life everyday
Integration is not only post session, it is also pre-session
Integration, at its root means bringing parts together into wholeness
Joe says you don’t need support to do integration, although it is helpful
Kyle’s analogy of a psychedelic experience as a big hallway with a lot of doors, and a ton of magical stuff, even scary monsters, are coming through the doors and wandering through the halls
The goal is to realize and say “this is a part of me” and learn to be okay with all of the stuff in the hall
Self care works until it doesn’t, and that is when integration comes in
Integration Framework
Kyle uses a framework and asks, what is your GPA?
G – grounding, post session, how are we getting re-connected to ourselves?
P – processing, once energy feels stable and centered, how can we process the material? It could mean journaling, therapy, body or somatic work, breathwork, yoga, etc.
A – action, moving it forward, breaking the leanings down into goals of things to work on
Kyle says that these things do not need to be done in order necessarily, but its a good framework to check in after an experience and see where you’re at
Joe reminds listeners of ‘pre-hab’, that preparation can make a world of a difference and weigh a lot more than post work in a lot of cases
“Life is integration, call your mom, pay your rent.” – Joe
Joe mentions the quote that “the opposite of addiction is connection”
Climate change can bring up a lot of existential dread, the connection piece, and other topics can be addressed with psychedelic integration
You don’t need an integration coach all the time, but for someone to just be there helps
If you have a retreat planned, integration and coaching can really help mitigate the risks
Integration within the psychedelic community is somewhat understood
Kyle says he gets tons of emails asking for medicine sessions
Psychedelic Integration and coaching services do not include medicine or guiding or providing of medicine, its simply pre and post session guidance
Psychedelics Today does not suggest underground or illegal psychedelic sessions/therapy and makes a significant effort to be ignorant of underground work, there are legal options to choose from
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down to cover highlights from the Horizons Conference. In the show, they discuss the presentations and topics they heard at the conference.
3 Key Points:
Joe and Kyle attended Horizons: Perspectives on Psychedelics Conference in NYC, it is a forum that examines the role of psychedelic drugs and plant medicines in science, medicine, culture and spirituality.
Carl Hart gave a compelling talk; Dispelling the Lies that the Psychedelic Community believes about Drugs. Greater than 80% of the effects of drugs used are positive.
Another popular topic was on the economics around psychedelics, and discussion on companies trying to monopolize on psychedelics.
Carl Hart did a talk; Dispelling the Lies that the Psychedelic Community believes about drugs
Greater than 80% of the effects of drugs used are positive
PCP is a psychedelic drug, but the psychedelic community chooses not to own it
Ketamine was derived from PCP
Hamilton Morris said that no drug is bad, it comes down to the dose and how its being used
Poison can be a medicine, and medicine can be a poison, it all depends on dose
No drug should be illegal, drug scheduling should just go away
Some states are starting to ban private prisons
Joe says the drug war is the war on race, the war on class, etc
Joe suggests looking up the Portugal drug law; less overdoses, less HIV, less incarceration, etc
Kyle mentions that in some cultures they would drink alcohol to get into a trance state and dance around all night and then chill for 3 days afterward because they would all be recovering from the hangover
Talks and Topics
Shelby and Madison, co founders from Doubleblind Magazine did a talk
Fiona Misham did a talk on the use of psychedelics for festivals and fun
She talked about having on-site drug testing facilities and how they heighten safety
In 2018 in Europe the MDMA contents were tested at 168milligrams
1 in 5 substances are mis-sold
1 in 20 MDMA samples were long lasting N-ethylpentylone, a drug that keeps you up for 3 days straight
There was also an Economics panel
Kyle says it was a heavy and hot debate
There was a lot of conversation on companies making money on psychedelics
There was worry from some on Compass Pathways monopolizing on psychedelics
Kyle says big and fast growth can be dangerous for mental health
It’s possible that these companies will just push for results to pay off the investment than to really take the time to have slow meaningful sessions and include the therapeutic model
When therapists have more congruence with their client, they get better results
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
In this episode, Joe interviews Cody Swift from the Riverstyx Foundation. In the show, they talk about Peyote and the troubles for Native Americans and their church not having access and preservation of Peyote.
3 Key Points:
RiverStyx is a small family foundation that funds projects that demonstrate the potential for healing and beauty. RiverStyx has funded the preservation of land to protect the sacred Peyote plant.
The Portugal Model shows that decriminalization works. Portugal faced unprecedented overdoses and drug abuse, typically with heroine, and when they turned to decriminalization and treatment, overdoses and incarceration dropped significantly to almost none.
The Native American churches have held onto their ceremonial practices very tightly, and they struggle to find legal and sustainable access to Peyote, their sacred plant medicine.
Cody says, if cane syrup was made illegal because it is killing people, we wouldn’t ban the growth of corn, because it is sacred and used for so many other things
“Jail is one of the biggest problems for mushroom users” – Joe
Joe mentions that he was a little frustrated that Michael Pollan was able to take mushrooms and not go to jail, but the average person could go to jail
Cody says that he highly respects Michael Pollan and what he has done for the psychedelic revolution, and that he thinks that Pollan wouldn’t want anyone to go to jail for this
People like Michael Pollan and Tim Ferriss have done a tremendous job securing funding for Psychedelic Research
Peyote
Native American people had always been close to Cody’s heart
As a philanthropist, he didn’t know where to begin
There is a myriad of problems facing Native American communities
About 5 years ago, it just came into consciousness
He got connected to Sandor of the Native American church
He learned about ceremony and it became absolutely clear that he had to be a part of it
It was an unclear path on how to support the community in the beginning, there was no 501C-3, there were no other philanthropists, the community is so large
“How to support them in the continuance and empowerment of their using of a highly potent and healing substance to treat communities that have suffered so much, that was the key question” – Cody
Looking at the threat and endangerment of the Peyote plant was the most important part of securing the preservation of this sacred plant
Synthetic Mescaline is difficult to access and expensive
Ceremony
It’s hard to track the ancient original threats to the traditions
The Native American churches have held onto the ceremonial practices very tightly
It’s important that white people don’t just come in and tweak the ceremony
The average life expectancy for Native Americans is only in their 50s
They have gone through so much suffering, and they are very awake, sensitive people that are holding this culture and practice close to them
Alcoholism is one of the largest problems in Native American communities, and Peyote has shown to be a highly tangible benefit and cure for alcoholism
Preservation
It has taken over 4 years to begin building these alliances
Riverstyx and Bronners have been the only sources of funding, they need more
Through this, they purchased 605 acres of land for peyote preservation in Texas
600 acres may not solve the Peyote crisis, but it is a start and has opened the doors to connect with other farmers that has now led to 12,000 acres dedicated to peyote preservation
This is to return sovereignty and control to the Native
After the land was purchased, they had a pilgrimage with the Navajo
Peyote is God to them, it’s their connection to the spiritual realm
Native Americans have resisted acculturation and stuck to their ways, that is their strength
RiverStyx Foundation attempts to lessen human suffering caused by misguided social policy and stigma, while advocating enhanced opportunities for healing, growth, and transformation in such areas as drug policy, criminal justice, and end-of-life care. The Riverstyx Foundation believes in the human potential for healing, growth, and transformation. The Riverstyx Foundation works to provide a bridge to the relinquished parts of ourselves, our society, and our ecology, to ease those fears and prejudices by funding projects that demonstrate the potential for healing and beauty, when life is embraced in its fullest expression.
In the heart of Manhattan’s busy Greenwich Village, the Horizon’s Conference: Perspectives on Psychedelics, graced the Cooper Union Great Hall on October 12th and 13th. The largest and longest-running gathering of the psychedelic community brings folks from around the globe together for presentations on psychedelic research findings and activism every year.
The conference first ran in 2007 as a single afternoon of talks at the Judson Memorial Church with around 250 attendees. This year, both days were sold out and attendance exceeded 2,600 people, not including after-parties and other unofficial events around town.
This was also the first year that offered pre-conference classes for physicians as well as interested individuals, like Introduction to Psilocybin Therapy with Bill Richards and Rosalind Watts, Intro to MDMA Therapy for Clinicians led by Shannon Clare Carlin and Marcela Ot’alora, Intro to Ketamine Psychotherapy, and Sexual Ethics in the Psychedelic Community, all of which were sold out on Friday, October 11th.
But what kind of talks are given in such a collegiate atmosphere, at a podium that’s hosted leaders such as Abraham Lincoln, Susan B. Anthony, and Barack Obama? On day one, Julie Holland, M.D. and author of Weekends at Bellevue hosted the science-themed presentations, including recent research on psilocybin from the Imperial College London team, mindfulness-assisted Ketamine therapy by Elias Dakwar, M.D., the potential harms and benefits of 5-meO-DMT given by Alan K. Davis, PhD, among other fascinating and informative talks.
Then on day two, the theme switched to culture and Bia Labate, Executive Director of Chacruna and MAPS’s cultural specialist hosted presentations on psychedelics in the media by the DoubleBlind Mag founders, the indigenous peyote way of life by Steven Benally, president of Azee’ Bee Nahagha Nation (formerly known as the Native American Church of Navajo Land), the intersection of art and psychedelic-assisted therapy by artist and activist, Swoon, along with other important and moving discussions.
Let’s take a look at three main themes that emerged this year at Horizon’s to get a sense of the kinds of issues the psychedelic community is currently debating.
1. Psychedelics are coming, but how? Medicalization vs. Decriminalization vs. Legalization
The conversation at this year’s Horizon’s seemed to move past whether or not legal psychedelics are coming. Everyone at the conference seemed to agree that the future includes some kind of legal option for substances like psilocybin, but now the question is: What’s the best model for moving forward?
Yet, even for the psychedelic community, Hart’s ideas are somewhat radical. Other organizations in the space strongly believe in a more medicalized model, where psychedelics wouldn’t be legal to use and possess by anyone, but instead only by doctors who would administer them in a controlled environment to qualifying patients. It’s a big debate in the community, especially considering the medicalization of psychedelics probably wouldn’t be accessible to everyone because of the high price tag that will likely come attached.
Decriminalization is the third option, but can still fall short of being enough for the safest and most responsible drug use. For this reason, many in the community see it more as a step toward full, adult-use legalization than the finish line. In Hart’s talk, he pointed to the fact that law enforcement can still marginalize certain groups, especially POC (people of color), with decriminalization, and without regulations and purity testing of substances, people don’t have enough information to use drugs safely.
2. Economic Models of Psychedelic Expansion
Which brings us to our next point, if psychedelics are legalized, will companies be able to make a profit from selling them? Could “Big Psychedelics” come in and monopolize the space?
George Goldsmith, Bia Labate, Dr. James Rucker
While this issue was brought up in many contexts at Horizons, it was the center of discussion on Sunday morning at a panel titled, “Economic Models for the Expansion of Psychedelics”. George Goldsmith, co-founder and CEO of Compass Pathways, a for-profit company that has patented synthetic psilocybin and threatens to monopolize the space, was a member of the panel and put in the hot seat by many in the community, both during the Q & A and by the other panelists. Goldsmith is already a millionaire and is poised to make the most profit and have the most control over medicalized psilocybin, and that is cause for alarm for many people in the community. Most of the other organizations sponsoring research into psychedelic-assisted therapy are not-for-profit organizations, like MAPS with MDMA and the Usona Institute with psilocybin.
Other options for psychedelic expansion were also addressed in this discussion, like the “pollinator approach” by economics and public policy professor, Bennet A. Zelner, PhD, which is a more community-based model of resource and information sharing and distribution.
3. “Coming Out” as a Psychedelic User
Lastly, another main theme that was touched on in both presentations and private conversations was the need of community members to “come out” publicly as psychedelic users. The idea is to show the mainstream that anyone can be a responsible psychedelic (or other type of drug) user to try and break some of the stigma that still surrounds these substances. If we can change the public perception of psychedelics, then a shift in law and policy could naturally follow.
There’s even a group from Costa Rica trying to start an international coming-out campaign on February 20, 2020 called “Thank You Plant Medicine” to support folks in telling their transformative psychedelic stories publicly.
It was a busy and exciting year at Horizons NYC, and a great opportunity for the community to come together to push the conversation forward. These are three major issues to continue to pay attention to as psychedelic research and decriminalization progress!
About the Author
Michelle Janikian is a journalist focused on drug policy, trends, and education. She’s the author of Your Psilocybin Mushroom Companion, and her work has also been featured in Playboy, DoubleBlind Mag, High Times, Rolling Stone and Teen Vogue. One of her core beliefs is ending the prohibition of drugs can greatly benefit society, as long as we have harm reduction education to accompany it. Find out more on her website: www.michellejanikian.com or on Instagram @michelle.janikian.
In this episode, Joe sits down with Jordan and Lou from Mycology Now, a company that makes and sells spore syringes for microscopy use. In the show, they talk about the start of Mycology Now, the culture change caused by psychedelics, and personal stories on how psychedelics changed their lives.
3 Key Points:
Mycology Now is a company that produces premium spores for microscopy use. The goal is to spread knowledge about mycology, one spore at a time.
We are living in an age of information that has never been experienced before, people have the tools to break the stigma on their own just by educating themselves.
Psychedelics are becoming a culture change agent, more and more people are becoming accepting of psychedelics, and psychedelics are helping people come together to create positive change.
Jordan and Lou are co-owners and creators of Mycology Now
The company runs out of Florida
Mycology Now is a company that sells spores for microscopy
They have two locations in Denver
The mission of the company is to spread spores and knowledge
Lou shares how his interest in mycology began
He says it began with his struggle with depression and suicidal tendencies
Psilocybin had ended up being the only thing that helped with the struggle, the depression was completely erased
Jordan shares his story
His mother was in a relationship when he was about 10 years old with an abusive man
This man abused narcotics, opioids
He was abusive mentally, physically and emotionally
He grew up being convinced that he wasn’t worthy of love, and he blamed himself
About 2 years ago, he discovered mushrooms, and was able to go into the painful parts of his childhood and forgive himself and heal from his trauma
“Although negative things did happen to me, and to my family, I was not the cause of it, and I should not have to carry that around with me.” – Jordan
He wants to do everything in his power to bring that to the rest of the world
Shattering the Stigma
One thing that they have noticed about the younger generation is that they are way more open and have way more acceptance of psychedelics and an interest in self care and mental health
“We are living in an age of information that has never been experienced before, people have the tools to break the stigma on their own just by educating themselves.” – Jordan
Joe mentions that in Colorado, psychedelics are a bit normalized to have conversation about
In Florida, the median age is 55, so there is more of a challenge because people that age grew up in the taboo time of psychedelics
The start of Mycology Now
It organically grew into a website
Lou says it was an entity that grew on its own
Joe predicts that in 2020, we are about to see the Psilocybin movement really take off
Joe brings up the Paul Stamets Stack, which is Cubensis, Lions Mane and Niacin
There are testimonials about auditory changes that you can measure, you can increase your ability to hear frequencies
They bring up an example of a deaf man being able to hear the waves of the ocean for the first time after practicing the Stamet’s stack
Psychedelics as a Culture Change agent
Some people say its the worst time in history, and other people say this is the best time in history
There is a hunger of more digestible ways of receiving information
Psychedelics can help us understand the impermanence of things
Lou brings up that Paul Staments and Dennis McKenna were the catalysts to his understanding of mycology
Jordan says that his inspiration and influence came from people at music festivals
People are very open and authentic when on psychedelics
Meeting real people with real lives who had profound change in their lives because of psychedelics are his major sources of inspiration
Psilocybin for Cancer and Depression
Lou’s sister was diagnosed with Metastatic breast cancer with a double mastectomy and was diagnosed with depression afterward
After talking about the health benefits, she took psilocybin, and laid down and disconnected with her body
Afterward, she was able to come out of it and talk about her ease with death
The experience felt like death itself, and having felt what death might feel like, she no longer experiences depression about her cancer
Final Fun Fact
Johns Hopkins psilocybin study on smoking cessation
80% of people were abstinent from smoking cigarettes on a 6 month followup
Those people smoked an average of 19 cigarettes per day for an average of 31 years of their life
About Mycology Now
Mycology Now is a humble small business dedicated to spreading awareness. They are a company that makes and sells spore syringes for microscopy use. Their Mushroom Spore prints and syringes speak for themselves; always having a heavy spore count.
In this episode, Kyle joins in conversation with Dr. Daniela Peluso, Cultural Anthropologist and Associate Director at Chacruna. In the show, they discuss guidelines for the awareness of against sexual abuse in Ayahuasca ceremony.
3 Key Points:
Ayahuasca settings bring together shamans and participants, and with the increasing occurrence of such encounters, there is an alarming rate of incidences where shamans make sexual advances toward participants during or following ceremonies.
Ayahuasca is a commonly used substance for seducing participants looking for healing, whom then return from their retreats needing additional healing from sexual abuse.
This guideline reviews some of the key behaviors to look out for and ways to prepare before attending an Ayahuasca retreat to avoid and protect oneself against sexual abuse.
There was an initiative that made a guideline for doing Ayahuasca but it was held back because there are so many different ways ceremony can be performed and it wasn’t accurate
Drinking with friends is wise
Drinking with experienced women or a couple is another wise move Abuse mainly happens to women but it does happen to men as well There is a higher chance for a person to speak up when they have someone they know and trust there with them Ayahuasca tourism is why sexual abuse is such a problem When someone doesn’t know that touch is out of the norm in ceremony, they might accept it because they were never informed that it’s wrong They may think that being touched sexually is just a part of the ceremony, and it’s not AyaAdvisors and Tripadvisor are both decent resources for reviews on Ayahuasca centers/ceremonial retreats Unless something goes terribly wrong, you will usually get good reviews Places also change over time
It’s not necessary for healers to touch intimate parts of your body or any area to which you do not consent There are forms of healing where the body is touched, so it’s important for the person to make known what is okay and not okay from the start
Curaciones, Sopladas and Limpiezas do not require you to remove your clothes If a shaman removes clothing, that may be a warning sign because that is not a part of tradition
Look out for warning signs that a healers intentions with you might be sexual When healers start to talk about how they aren’t married or that they can give you ‘special treatment’ or that sexual or ‘love magic’ is necessary for healing, that is a warning sign Use common sense and draw the line immediately if anything sexual comes up
Sexual Intercourse between healer and patient during ceremonies or directly after the ceremony is not acceptable in Ayahuasca tradition
Sexual intercourse with a healer does not give you special power or energy
Consider cultural differences and local behavioral norms when interacting with native healers, letting go of ethnocentrism Having an understanding of what is culturally normal is important
Consider cultural differences and local clothing customs
Protect your personal space, physically and spiritually Each person has a right to know their body and know what feels right and wrong to them No means no
Be wary if healers offer psychoactive substances other than those used during ceremonies
He is a Shaman, not a Saint! There is a lot more “I am a Shaman” these days, where it used to be more of “I am not a Shaman” Ayahuasca tourism definitely romanticized what being a Shaman really is
If violation occurs, get support People should speak up as quickly as they are able to, vocally or physically “There is no need to suffer in silence” – Daniela
Beware of what might appear to be consensual sex It has a lot to do with having the same form of communication, trust, and power dynamics
Beware of getting romantically involved
If you are aware of or witness sexual abuse, speak up
Final Thoughts
“Individuals have to accept that Ayahuasca has become a business and an industry as much as it is a spiritual practice, and that it includes the trappings of capitalism like exploitation and inequality.” – Daniela
Daniela Peluso is a cultural anthropologist whose current research focuses on indigenous Amazonian communities. She has worked over the last two decades in Lowland South America, mostly with communities in in the Peruvian and Bolivian Amazon. She is actively involved in various local efforts on issues relating to health, gender, indigenous urbanization and land-rights and works in close collaboration with indigenous and local organizations as reflected in her publications. She also specializes on the anthropology of finance. She received her PhD in 2003 from Columbia University and is a senior lecturer in social anthropology at the University of Kent. She is an Associate Director of the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines and on the board of the Society of Lowland South America (SALSA) and People and Plants International (PPI).
In this episode, Kyle interviews Laura Northrup, Marriage and Relationship Somatic Psychotherapist and creator of the podcast, Inside Eyes. Inside Eyes is an audio series about people using entheogens and psychedelics to heal from sexual trauma.
3 Key Points:
If you think sexual abuse is happening, its important to speak up! We live in a world where it’s scary to speak up, but at its core, it’s really scary to not speak up, and to let these things happen to our fellow humans.
Somatic work brings people the autonomy of their body that usually gets taken away when trauma is formed.
Dissociation is usually a side effect of trauma, and it’s common for a trauma patient to take psychedelics and become re-associative after one experience. But, if a patient was traumatized at a young age and dissociated their whole life, becoming re-associated can be stressful, and integration becomes really important.
Inside Eyes is an audio series about people using entheogens and psychedelics to heal from sexual trauma.
Laura says the name ‘Inside eyes’ means to look inward
Sexual violence happens in every community, as well as in the psychedelic community
“Entheogens and psychedelics can wake us up so we can be more empowered and better stewards to the earth. But just because someone uses these substances, it doesn’t mean that they will be operating at their highest self.” – Laura
Somatics
Laura is a psychotherapist in the Bay area who works with survivors of sexual trauma
There is a place where people get with their healing that is very difficult to move past
There is something on a spiritual level that needs to move to heal someone past their ‘block’
Somatic therapy is a huge part of preparing for and integrating these experiences to heal from trauma
Laura says when people talk about their healing, its common to only talk about the part when the entheogen or psychedelic comes in, but maybe not the 6 years of therapy they had before hand
She says she really wants to create the balance of including both the therapy and the entheogenic/psychedelic use
Laura says she also believes in community based healing
There is so much shame in secrecy
One theory of somatic therapy, is that there was a physical response that our body may have wanted to make during a moment of sexual trauma, and psychedelics and entheogens brings those movements out in therapy, to be able to heal
Somatic work brings people the autonomy of their body that usually gets taken away when trauma is formed
Integration
This thing can happen when you become extremely dissociated from trauma, and then you use psychedelics or entheogens, and you become associated after just one experience, thats great
But if you have trauma from a young age and have been dissociated for your whole life, one psychedelic experience can be very stressful
It takes a lot of integration to deal with the difficulties
Ketamine
Dissociation when you’re already suffering from dissociation has a healing effect
“Part of healing is going toward wholeness” – Laura
There is a lot of variation in what someone considers dissociation
“Being embodied is empowering, and being disembodied is different than being dissociated. People can become more embodied after using a dis-associative medicine.” – Laura
Laura also covers how people function in their relationships as they heal from their trauma
Alcohol is legal, its horrible for your body, it causes so many deaths yearly, yet we don’t look at Ayahuasca and MDMA and all these other medicines as a collective culture
Bystanders
If you think something is going on, it’s important to not just be polite and not say anything
The politeness is a sickness that we have in America
Psychedelics and entheogens can be really good at helping us be activists in healing both ourselves and others
We live in a world where it’s scary to speak up, but at its core, it’s really scary to not speak up, and to let these things happen to our fellow humans
Psychedelics and Entheogens get people into a deeper sense of their own truth
“We need to be in a globally aware place, we don’t need to just be healing ourselves, we need to all be healing.” – Laura
We need more connected relationships, if you spend today and have a more connected relationship to yourself or someone else, that is one step closer to healing our world
Advice
Just because you get connected to a group, does not mean that that group is the group you need to do your healing with
Do your research, and get references
Laura says she looks at psychedelic and entheogenic substance use from two lenses, she cares about the people taking it, and about the plants themselves
She says that some of these plant compounds are becoming endangered so it’s important to be mindful of that
She also says that some therapists and shamans use bodywork and ‘touch’ so it’s also important to be aware of that before ceremony or therapy
Touch can be both very healing, but also traumatizing, so it’s important to know boundaries
Horizons Event
Laura will be hosting an event at Horizons on sexual ethics in the psychedelic community, sign up here
Laura Mae Northrup is the creator and host of the podcast Inside Eyes, a series that explores the use of entheogens and psychedelics to heal sexual trauma. She is a practicing psychotherapist and educator. Her work focuses on defining sexual violence through a spiritual and politicized lens and supporting the spiritual integrity of our collective humanity. She is a champion of living more fully engaged and responsible lives through the healing use of entheogens and psychedelics. She lives and works in Oakland, CA.
After years of seeking refuge at the bottom of a bottle, Karen Shaw’s experimentation with psilocybin yielded unexpected discoveries… and a fresh start
Not long after Karen Shaw started microdosing psilocybin, a very distinct thought seemed to cry out, louder than the rest.
“One of the things I said to myself is I have
to make my life more beautiful. I have to do things to make my life beautiful
and happy.”
For months leading up to this point, Karen’s
life felt far from beautiful.
Having deviated from her career to start a
silversmithing business with her partner of 10 years, the venture turned sour
early on as their relationship disintegrated. With both her professional and
personal lives entwined in a deepening crisis, the depression and anxiety Karen
had struggled with for decades intensified and began to close in.
Laying out the story from her home office in
The Hague, at this point Karen paused and looked down at her teacup. A feeble
laugh and a pixelated Skype connection did little to disguise her lingering
pain.
“I’m a bit surprised. I thought I was over it.
But there’s obviously still something there. I’m happy to be talking about it,”
she said, lifting her chin. “They were bad days. Feeling like I could spiral
into the depths of despair and not come out of it.
“I felt like I was hanging on for dear life sometimes.
“Just trying to keep my sanity and keep going.
And of course, relying on drink too much.”
Alcohol had been a toxic ally during ongoing
bouts with mental illness. Feeling trapped in a decaying business still reeking
of her failed romance, Karen’s reliance on the habit grew.
“I think it was vodka at the time. If I’m
honest about it, I was probably drinking between half a bottle to a bottle of
it a day.”
***
Karen’s mounting dread and desperation, as well as her dissatisfaction with past mental health treatment, sent her searching for other solutions. Having stumbled across an article on microdosing a few years earlier, Karen decided it was an alternative measure she was willing to try. Living in the Netherlands, this was a significantly easier undertaking for her than it would be for many others.
“I bought a grow kit of magic mushrooms at a
shop down the road from me. I grew them, dried them and I started microdosing
in March 2017,” she said.
Following a protocol recommended by
psychologist and psychedelic researcher, Dr. James Fadiman, Karen took a
sub-perceptible dose of psilocybin mushrooms twice a week for six weeks.
“I would weigh out 0.2 to 0.3 of a gram and
put it in a little capsule and take that in the morning. I would do that on
Wednesdays and Sundays. They were my microdosing days,” she recalled.
From there, it didn’t take long for things in Karen’s life to start rearranging. Within weeks, she was finally able to pry herself from the doomed business and damaging relationship. While walking away was liberating, the reprieve was brief. At 59-years-of-age, having to join the unemployment line offered proof her life would have to get ugly before finding beauty.
“I was on employment benefits and I had the
opportunity to do some courses in how to design what you want to do with your
life. I remember feeling very insecure walking into those rooms, feeling
everybody was looking at me. I didn’t want to be there.”
The early days of her microdosing experiment
also proved a little bumpy. With some gentle coercion from the psilocybin she
was taking, Karen was forced to embrace a deeper level of vulnerability and
openness, which caused her to “feel a lot of anxiety at first. I think it’s
because I felt that I actually had to face the problems I was going through,”
she said. “It (microdosing) does make you think a lot more. It makes you
analyze yourself and why you do things and of course that can make you feel
uncomfortable.”
But as the days inched past, anxiety gave way
to something else.
“There was a gradual realization that things
were getting better. That I could handle things better. I was much calmer.”
Eventually, this shift unearthed another
realization Karen would never have thought possible… She was now ready to say
goodbye to an old and domineering friend.
“I started drinking less. I’ve not stopped. I
might have a glass of wine, or some cannabis, a joint after work. But I don’t
drink to excess. I don’t like getting drunk anymore. It’s not something I
enjoy.”
***
Following a 10-week break, Karen began her second round of microdosing, and the insights continued to flow, alongside some unexpected opportunities. A few months after making the tough decision to abandon silversmithing, someone approached Karen and offered her work on a small project. Given her background in graphic design and website creation, she decided to take it on. Then, a crazy notion caught her attention.
“I thought, ‘okay, now’s a good time to start
my own business.’ Which I did.”
Softly spoken and harboring a gentle temperament, Karen doesn’t come across as the bragging type. But as she described her newfound joy and contentment at growing her fledgling freelancing venture, she allowed herself a confident smile. Progress is going well. Networking events have filled her calendar as she seeks to expand her client base.
“Before, I just didn’t think I had it in me.
But I haven’t looked back since.”
Throughout this time, Karen has continued to
microdose on and off. She’s recently returned to it again, this time only
taking one dose a week. As well as using psilocybin to climb out of a
depressive slump, Karen found it’s benefitted her creativity, ultimately aiding
her work.
“When you microdose, you sort of go into this
flow state and become very, very aware of everything around you. At first, I
could get very distracted. But once I could control it and focus it on one
thing… well, you just forget everything. You get a sort of childlike delight.
It’s difficult to explain,” she said, shaking her head.
“I feel I can enjoy everything much more completely than
I have done for a long time.”
Digging into the depths of her artistic
potential, Karen has also discovered a love of writing. With the freedom to
explore a new passion, she’s since developed it into more than just a pastime,
and now offers it as part of her professional repertoire.
“I always thought I hated writing. These days,
I can spend hours getting the tone and the message right and enjoying the
language. I’d never enjoyed that before.”
While she’s relishing a fresh start, Karen realizes the difference between her old life and her recent achievements is terrifyingly slim. Asked where she’d be right now, had she not purchased that mushroom grow kit… Karen was adamant she’d be worse off.
“I’d probably still be drinking a lot and just
not enjoying life.”
Having come close to snaring a number of
helpdesk positions during her time searching for work, Karen is grateful such
an opportunity never came to fruition.
“I would have jumped at whatever came along.
I’d be sitting behind a computer answering problem emails all day and feeling
very bored and very unhappy with myself.”
***
While Karen’s career has enjoyed a kickstart,
the most radical transformation has been unfolding internally.
“One thing I noticed is I actually like
spending time on my own. I like being in my own head.”
This prospect, as simple as it seems, wasn’t
an option for Karen before microdosing. Stuck in a never-ending game of cranial
cat and mouse, she spent much of her mental capacity drowning out the pain of
her thoughts and problems. When this got too strenuous, liquor was able to
finish the job.
“My head was like one of those old telephone
exchanges,” Karen said, tensing her hands all talon-like above her light brown
hair to emphasize the analogy. “And it was a terrible mess. I didn’t know what
my problems were. I didn’t know how to turn my life around. I didn’t know how
to stop drinking. I didn’t want to
stop drinking.”
The biggest gift psilocybin gave her, Karen
said, was a “brain reboot”.
“It’s as if you had all this chaos in your
brain then all of a sudden, it sorts itself out and all of the connections are
working properly again. You can think more clearly and make better decisions.”
While the phrase “brain reboot” feels as if it
was lifted straight from the greasy elevator pitch of a Shake Weight salesman,
proof of Karen’s claim goes far beyond her words — it’s written all over her
demeanor. The current portrait of Karen Shaw hasn’t a single brushstroke of the
anxious scrapheap she spent half the interview describing.
“I think if you spoke to my eldest daughter,
she would say that I’m a very, very different person now than I used to be.”
So different, in fact, that talking to this
daughter wasn’t something even Karen herself could do back then. Difficulties
communicating led to frequent confrontations. The shame she carries about for
being inattentive to her children’s needs was just as easy to pick up on as her
own emotional scarring.
“When you feel pain inside, it’s very
difficult to connect with other people. You tend to lash out at them and not be
aware of their situation and their feelings,” she said. “I don’t think I’d ever
thought about my role as a mother before. I sort of just became a mother but
never thought about what that really means. Which sounds awful doesn’t it?”
As Karen’s relationship with psilocybin
deepened, so too did the frayed relationship with her eldest daughter start to
mend. Being less swept up in her perceived problems, Karen’s empathy grew.
Perhaps for the first time in her life, Karen started truly listening to her
daughter.
“She’s much more willing to phone me about her
problems and I’m not just able to help her more, but I’m happy to as well. I’m
gradually getting this feeling that I want to be a role model.
“I want to show my daughters that you can work for
yourself. You can be an independent woman and enjoy your life. I’d never
thought that before.”
Admitting this was a completely unexpected
development in her microdosing journey, the sheepish excitement that crept into
Karen’s features betrayed her gratitude for it nevertheless.
“I’m even looking forward to being a
grandmother. Before, that was something I didn’t want to think about. I thought
being a grandmother meant you were old!” Karen laughed, but was cut short by
the follow up: Is it possible a reconciliation may never have taken place?
“I think if I’d carried on like I was, then I
really think we might have grown further and further apart. It’s awful to think
that was definitely a possibility.”
***
Beyond the prospect of becoming a grandmother,
Karen has much more to look forward to. Chief among all of that is a commitment
to spend as much time as possible with herself.
Being at home, enjoying creative pursuits,
cooking, and gardening now sit at the top of her list of priorities. The simple
pleasures, it seems, are where she’s discovering vitality, as well as that
all-important objective she set out to achieve back when her life fell down
around her ankles — these days, Karen finds beauty where she’d never once cared
to look.
“I can spend hours just watching the birds and
the insects… Oh, and the spiders!” Karen added, an overt tinge of enthusiasm
taking hold of her voice. Someone imbued with a healthy distrust of spiders
might even describe her tone as bearing an irrational relish. “I find myself
being blown away by the incredible beauty of their webs and how they made them
and what clever little creatures they are.
“I even postponed trimming one of my bushes because a
spider had its web up and it was obviously preparing for winter. I wouldn’t
have thought that way before. I’m much more empathetic and feel very connected
to everything.
Last year, a published study out of the
Spiritual Mind Body Institute suggested cultivating a belief in being connected
to something greater than oneself can “have profound impacts on people’s
lives”. Having highlighted exactly where in the brain transcendent states are
processed also helped researchers deduce that spiritual encounters aren’t just
limited to religious practice, but can be brought about in many varied ways.
Potentially, Karen’s newfound love of spiders, and nature, in general, may be helping her build a brighter outlook and find greater meaning.
“Life is such a great thing. It’s all around
us. The world is teeming with life and we’re just a tiny little part of this
living entity,” she said, before more muttering about sounding silly again.
As for microdosing, Karen plans to continue
with one capsule a week, for as long as she feels is necessary. Lately, the
toughest thing about it is actually remembering to take the dose. Without a
reminder set in her phone, she’s prone to forgetting it altogether. It’s a much
different relationship with substances she’s still getting used to, but
understandably, she doesn’t mind the change.
“I’m healing. I don’t know if that process will ever stop, because you’re always growing and changing. But it’s certainly put me on a different path and has me feeling a lot better about myself,” she said. “The world could do with a lot more microdosing, I think there are a lot of people who could benefit.”
About the Author
Jason Schwab: When a 10-week microdosing experiment helped Jason overcome a lifelong struggle with depression and anxiety, he immediately became a passionate advocate for the widespread acceptance of psychedelics. A believer in the power of informed, intentional substance use to foster positive transformation, Jason knows that pulling people’s stories out from the shadow of prohibition is key to inspiring true healing on a global scale. A former journalist, he now travels the world seeking out the everyday men and women taking ownership of their health and wellbeing, making a real difference in their own lives, and consequently, the lives of others.
Extinction Rebellion has become the most well-known climate justice movement in history.
With over 100,000 members and worldwide protests regularly attracting crowds of thousands, XR aims to use non-violent civil disobedience to share their message: political leaders are not doing enough to protect the world from climate catastrophe.
Now the XR hourglass logo can be seen dotted around most major cities, and local groups are catalyzing a global revolution.
Extinction Rebellion began as a collaboration between climate activists who were becoming disenfranchised by the slow progress of their protest efforts. And uniquely, its roots are deeply set in the world of psychedelic plant medicines.
The Psychedelic Origins of Extinction Rebellion
Gail Bradbrook, one of the original co-founders of Extinction Rebellion, has been very transparent about the psychedelic influences behind her decisions.
Having been involved in climate activism for most of her life, Gail was feeling like nothing was working. Speaking at this year’s Breaking Convention in London, UK, Gail described howshe prayed for “the codes to social change” during an ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica. Gail also took iboga and kambo, alongside ayahuasca, during her time there.
In her talk at Breaking Convention, Gail described the immediate lessons she learned from the West African plant medicine iboga, which told her: “Gail, you create your own reality!” The notoriously uncomfortable iboga experience eventually gave way to Gail feeling all her negative thought patterns being gently removed by a grandmotherly figure.
It was in an ayahuasca ceremony that Gail asked the specific question about where to go next with her activism. The Amazonian psychedelic brew, typically associated with intense physical purging, is often taken by people in search of otherworldly wisdom. “I was praying for guides, and allies, to know that people would have my back.” Although she received no immediate answers, Gail was aware that “ayahuasca is mysterious, and her gifts come later.”
One month after her ayahuasca ceremony, Gail met with activist Roger Hallam, and they talked for hours about the latest research into activism and revolution. It ended with Roger saying “What you’ve got here, Gail, are the codes for social change.”
It looked like her prayers had been answered.
Disobedience was the foundation of these codes, and it directly led to the philosophy of Extinction Rebellion. “It’s only by being disruptive that you get people to have a conversation about an issue,” says Gail. During the press conference at Breaking Convention, Gail called for mass psychedelic disobedience, “where we take [psychedelic] medicine to tell the state that they have absolutely no right to control our consciousness and to define our spiritual practice.”
Gail’s calls for psychedelic law-breaking are a distinct contrast to the mainstream stance of the psychedelic community, who are mostly seeking the medicalization of psychedelic compounds, the first wave of which could come within the next ten years.. Gail has responded to this by saying “We don’t have time to wait for the science. […] Society will have collapsed by then. Why mess around behaving ourselves?”
Psychedelics Can Shift Our Relationship With Nature
Although the Extinction Rebellion organization has no official stance on psychedelics, there’s good reason for XR to be interested in their potential. We know that psychedelics can help to change the way we see ourselves and our position in the world.
People who have more lifetime experience with psychedelics are more likely to feel a connection to nature, and be more environmentally friendly (such as reducing water usage and recycling) compared to others. Even when other personality traits linked to environmental behavior – such as conscientiousness and liberal morals – are taken into consideration, this finding stands up.
It’s also been shown that the intensity of the psychedelic experience can predict the level of connection to nature that people have. Those who have had the most profound sense of a “loss of self” during their psychedelic experiences are the people most likely to feel a strong connection to nature.
These findings are important because our detachment from nature is arguably a large part of why humanity has caused the climate and ecological crisis we find ourselves in. As Daniel Quinn explains in his book Ishmael, the modern narrative of our inherent disconnection from the natural world is a pervasive philosophy that has convinced many of us that humanity is a lost cause.
One chance we have to reject this philosophy is through psychedelics. Science has now confirmed that psychedelics have the potential to change our perspective of the natural world. And any psychedelic journeyer can testify about their power to remind us that there is no such thing as humanity outside of nature.
A Return to Animism?
It’s not just the psychedelic experience itself that can bring us into an awareness of our true place in the natural world, but also the traditions that can accompany it.
Most cultures that have developed alongside psychedelic plant medicines are fundamentally animist societies. This means that they believe every living thing in the world has a spirit, or soul. In other words, every being is just a human in another form; another life.
Animism takes interconnectedness to be the very core fact of life. Although animist societies are not immune to greed, corruption, homophobia or misogyny, in general they appreciate that these actions have consequences. These cultures, though often flawed, very rarely destroy their lands, and they understand that their existence relies upon the wellbeing of their surroundings.
The concept of animism is also starting to enter mainstream Western thought, as our growing understanding of quantum physics points towards consciousness being something of a big deal. The philosophy of idealism, adapted to fit our quantum view of the world, could be about to see a surge in popularity among Western thinkers and scientists. Animism could soon see a resurgence in Western culture.
Westerners often end up taking psychedelic plant medicines within animist cultural contexts, as the most experienced shamans and practitioners usually come from these traditions. This means that psychedelics present a unique opportunity – not just for the encounter with one-ness they can induce, but for the animist wisdom they can bring us into contact with.
Could Psychedelics Catalyze Social Change?
Is an increased connection to nature enough to catalyze widespread social change? Could this be enough to combat the climate crisis?
Gail Bradbrook does not think that this should be our focus. She feels that although changing our relationship to nature will be crucial in order to build a less destructive society, it would be a process requiring “many centuries of work.”
Right now, Gail is calling for urgent social upheaval, starting with large acts of civil disobedience.
Plant medicines have already catalyzed the formation of Extinction Rebellion. Now, they may be used as an expression of cognitive freedom. And ultimately, they could be a route towards a society thataccepts its place in a global ecosystem.
About the Author
Patrick Smith, PhD, is a biologist and science writer. He has been working in the psychedelic space for the past five years. He currently writes for EntheoNation.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Ben Sessa, a Consultant Psychiatrist who is heavily involved in psychedelic research. Ben comes on to talk about preliminary results from the first ever, MDMA assisted therapy for alcohol use disorder (AUD).
3 Key Points:
Ben Sessa plays a role in leading the current MDMA assisted therapy study for alcohol use disorder, and shares preliminary results.
In the current stage, out of the first 12 patients, 2 have turned back to drinking, 5 have stayed completely dry and another 5 who have had a drink or two but have not relapsed back to their typical levels of consumption.
Most people with a long term substance addiction have a history of trauma. MDMA can help people feel safe, in order to work through and heal trauma.
They had 13 people in the study, and they took data on 4 people
The first caveat in these results is that there was no blinding and no placebo in this study
There is no way to tell that it was solely the drug that resulted in the effects
In terms of tolerability, everyone preferred it to other treatment, there were no bad reactions to the MDMA, there were no negative reactions, it was a total success in terms of tolerability
In the current stage, out of the first 12 patients, 2 have turned back to drinking, 5 have stayed completely dry and another 5 who have had a drink or two but have not relapsed back to their typical levels of consumption
They did a similar study previous to this one except without the MDMA and they had 11 patients, 9 of them went back to their full level of consumption
They chose alcohol use disorder because it’s so difficult to treat
All patients are recruits from local drug and alcohol services
Ben picks them up after they have detoxed, after they have been cured of the physical dependence, but when they have yet to be cured of the psychological dependence
They receive 2 dosing days within their 8 week therapy (usually weeks 3 and 6)
They do 125mg and then half that size dose 2 hours later, which sustains the high
Ben mentions that recruitment is difficult, a lot of people have a drinking problem, but they can’t have patients that are depressed, suicidal, pregnant, epileptic, etc.
Future for the Study
Up until next March, they are continuing to take in new patients for the study to have more data
The next step is to have a randomized control study
This current study is sponsored by Imperial College of London
It’s not a MAPS sponsored study, it’s the first non MAPS, MDMA study
The main papers, with all the data are over a year and a half away from publishing
Addiction and Trauma
“MDMA addiction is as rare as a hen with teeth.” – Ben
“Most people with a long term substance addiction have a history of trauma.” – Ben
Trauma and PTSD is highly treatment resistant
There are certain drugs that inhibit fear response, such as alcohol, heroin, etc
They make you forget the pain but you can’t work with them and do therapy with them, with MDMA you can
MDMA can help people feel safe, in order to work through and heal trauma
“We are all the products of our attachment relationships.” – Ben
Breaking Convention
This past year was the 5th one
There were 1300 attendees from all over the world
What’s wonderful about Breaking Convention is how multidisciplinary it is
There’s the guy in the gray suit in one room talking about high level neuroscience and a hippie with dreads in the other room talking about the spirits that live in the Salvia leaves
Ben says they work really hard to make that balance work
There’s a lot of debate and conflict in the psychedelic movement right now,
Breaking Convention is very important for creating space for this debate
Looking ahead
Ben is looking into opening a clinic
He mentions academia is not his area of study, he is a clinician, but this research is an excuse to treat patients
Ben Sessa is a consultant psychiatrist in adult addictions, working part-time at Addaction in Weston-Super-Mare and is senior research fellow at Bristol, Cardiff and Imperial College London Universities, where he is currently taking time off clinical medical practice to study towards a PhD in MDMA Psychotherapy. He has specialist training as a child and adolescent psychiatrist and is interested in the developmental trajectory from child maltreatment to adult mental health disorders. Dr Sessa’s joint interests in psychotherapy, pharmacology and trauma have lead him towards researching the subject of drug-assisted psychotherapy using psychedelic adjuncts. He is the author of two books exploring psychedelic medicine; The Psychedelic Renaissance (2012) and To Fathom Hell or Soar Angelic (2015) and is currently conducting research with Imperial College London and Cardiff universities studying the potential role for MDMA-assisted therapy for the treatment of PTSD and alcohol dependence syndrome. Dr Sessa is outspoken on lobbying for change in the current system by which drugs are classified in the UK, believing a more progressive policy of regulation would reduce the harms of recreational drug use. He is a co-founder and director of the UK’s Breaking Convention conference.
In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview Rachel Anderson and James Franzo, founders of the EDELIC Center for Ethnobotanicals. In the show, they talk about the benefits of creating a healing practice using botanicals such as Kratom and the need to decriminalize all plants.
3 Key Points:
EDELIC is a non-profit in Eugene, Oregon that began as a public lending library that has grown to a community of information, events, and conservatory of psychoactive botanicals.
Kratom can sometimes get a bad rep, commonly thought of as an opioid. But Kratom is not an opioid, it just affects the opioid receptors in the brain, respiration never changes, and it’s actually in the same category as the coffee family, so it gives a boost of energy.
There is not an economic incentive that puts the botanical research on the same level as synthetic research. At EDELIC, the goal is to create scientific evidence that validates citizen-led research, authentic scientific information, and create a scientifically valid, open science and praxis oriented, non-commodified access pathway, to and from the direct human & botanicals/fungi relationship while protecting the bounty emerging from therein.
EDELIC is a non-profit in Eugene Oregon that has been operating for 4 years
They started as a public lending library
They put on a weekly discussion group and host events
What started as a library, grew to a conservatory to protect plants, and now includes research
Conservatory
They have 15-16 psychoactive species, such as Salvia, Kratom, San-Pedro, etc.
Volunteers are able to help out in the garden
They are interested in growing the conservatory to have different climates that cater to each individual plant
Events
They have done both a CBD event and Kratom event, and have brought the plants from the conservatory
The events that they have been holding are based on community desire for more information on those plants
Kratom
Kratom has the potential to prevent deaths in the opioid crisis with less initial stigma than ibogaine, psilocybin, etc
The symptoms of withdrawal from Kratom are similar to withdrawal from coffee
Kratom is a plant and the benefits can be harnessed along with a practice
when habits are formed, a person doesn’t need to have a dependency on the Kratom
Kyle mentions that creating a practice is a foreign concept to some people, they think their healing comes solely from the substance and not the practice
The best way to take it is in tea form, and let all the intelligence centers of the body take the medicine in
James says he hears news and TED Talks on Kratom tinctures and extracts, and he thinks that leans Kratom toward that abusive behavior again
Using it continuously and re-upping on the go makes it less of a practice
“In all cases, were encouraging folks to focus on the whole botanical, letting the intelligence of the body to form the relationship with the plant will keep you safer than going in the other direction” – James
The goal is to use the Kratom to take away the pain to a point where the individual has more energy and to say, “what can I do to improve my health in this moment?”
That may look less like taking 100% of the pain away and taking it away just enough to have the energy to create a practice of healing without the reliance on another substance
Its generally safe, it has a predictable response in individuals, and it is legal
Kratom is not an opioid, it just effects the opioid receptors in the brain, respiration never changes, and its in the same category as the coffee family, so it gives a boost of energy
“Botanicals, integration practice, and realizing our internal intelligence centers can really influence and inform our decision making process” – James
Kratom can be tested, and there are industry standards similar to how cannabis is tested
Kratom is highly unregulated and you are taking a risk when not testing it for quality
Decriminalize Nature
In 1994, the World Trade Organization introduced this piece of legislation that says in US Patent Law, minor scientific alterations to natural botanical plants can be patented
Patent law protects scientific adaptations to botanicals, and therefore, the US claimed that third world countries owe us royalties for agricultural products
In Canada, they said to patent an indigenous plant is to steal from the third world country, and i n that case, the US owes other countries over 300 million and in pharmaceuticals, billions
That is why in the US, there is an urge to make money on synthetic versions of these plants
There is not an economic incentive that puts the botanical research on the same level as the synthetic research
The WTO does not recognize technology or innovations by farmers, artisans or grassroots innovators that happen in a grassroots setup
There are churches that are recognized at the federal level, they cant conduct research, but they have access to provide these plants
“We are hoping to create scientific evidence that validates citizen-led research, authentic scientific information, and create a scientifically valid, open science and praxis oriented, non-commodified access pathway, to and from the direct human & botanicals/fungi relationship while protecting the bounty emerging from therein. – James
Rachel notes that all funding so far has been from volunteers and donors
“I am strongly for decriminalizing nature, it protects the indigenous, it protects nature, there is no reason someone should be criminalized for using plants” – Rachel
There is a unique interplay between the laws at the local, state and federal level
Final Thoughts
There is a need for people to come together, a need to not feel alone, a need to share
If anyone is interested in starting a non-profit, Rachel and James are willing to help
Rachel’s focus is on somatic therapies and the healthy integration of plant practices. She has successfully fund-raised, planned and organized public events, hosted intentional integration practices with ethnobotanicals, created artwork, designed integration journals, met with the 4J school board to discuss drug awareness education in classrooms. Rachel brings power, stability, and genuine strength and determination to ECfES and acts as an original steward for the original ECfES vision.
About James Franzo
A 20-year journey of self-education (using what has now become a large part of the lending library we operate) inspired James to launch ECFES. Additionally, gaining experience working in the field of chemical dependency treatment and social services contributed further to his disenfranchisement with current policy and treatment modalities, and attracted him further to evidence-based approaches to drug policy reform and the mental health field in general. Specifically, potent ethnobotanical plants and mind/body methodologies for integrating them. James is also an honorably discharged military veteran, who served for six years. James has been the website content developer @ ECFES, library archivist, team builder, and steward of the original vision for ECFES, an ethnobotanical/psychedelic/entheogenic healing center under one roof.
Psychedelics Today is sharing this research project from Naropa in hopes that some with adequate experience may contribute! Below is a message and invitation from the Naropa University team.
Hello,
We are a team of researchers from Naropa University investigating the effects of N, N-Dimethyltryptamine (N, N-DMT), an illegal substance.
We are inviting you to participate and/or promote our survey about DMT through your individual connections, your group’s email list, and social media platforms. This is an anonymous questionnaire to gather preliminary data about the potential risks and benefits associated with taking DMT. The data that we collect will ultimately be used to create a protocol for extended state DMT research.
Responses will benefit those who choose to use DMT in the future, as well as help the scientific community to obtain more information about a sparsely researched topic.
To participate in this survey, please click on the following link: https://survey.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_245uviVxh3H7aV7 and you will be directed to a consent form. If you agree to the consent by clicking on the arrow at the bottom of the screen, you will be directed to the beginning of the survey. If you know people who might be willing to participate, please forward this email to your contacts, or share the link on your social media and/or website.
Anyone who has ever used DMT in any setting is welcomed to reply.
This survey should take about an hour to complete. Participants can choose to stop responding at any time and may return at their convenience.
Participants can use their phone, tablet, or computer to respond.
There are no compensations or incentives provided.
Responses will not be connected to any identifying information.
If you have any questions, or experience any difficulties accessing the link or completing the survey, please contact Dr. Carla J. Clements ( drcjclements@msn.com) or Dr. Travis Cox ( tcox@naropa.edu).
We appreciate your support. Sincerely,
Dr. Carla J. Clements, BCPC LPC Dr. Travis Cox, Ecopsychology Professor Naropa University Andrew Linares, Registered Psychotherapist Rosario Vergara, Registered Psychotherapist Mozelle E. DeLong, Registered Psychotherapist.
In this episode, Joe interviews Tep, a chemical engineer and educated, psychedelic enthusiast. They dive into rich conversation regarding drug use education and creating a cohesive meaning among recreational, medical and therapeutic substance use.
3 Key Points:
There is a disconnect between drug education and drug use. There are a lot of people who use drugs, but not a lot of people who are educated on how to use them.
There is a huge advantage of isolating the property of the drug when using them for therapy. For example, using isolated psilocybin vs mushrooms.
Learning on site at festivals and music events may not be super successful, drug education and harm reduction may look more like preparation.
Tep listens to all sorts of music, whether that’s rave style with lights, or jam bands, or a music festival with camping, or even rap and jazz
There is a whole spectrum of drug use in the music environment
She points out that some people are very mindful of what and how much they are taking, and other people are just taking anything they can find, and sometimes a lot or too much
She started to talk to people at festivals and realized that people really didn’t know about the benefits and power of psychedelics
There definitely is a place for harm reduction education at festivals
Drug Use Assistance Groups
Joe brings up the Zendo project and other initiatives that help people who are having a difficult drug experience to walk them out of it
Some festival ‘families’ go around and have missions to hydrate people or make sure people are having a good time
They aren’t staff or paid to do it or anything but they do it for the good of the whole
Vision
Learning on site may not be super successful, most festival goers have an agenda for adventure and music and not for learning at a booth or speaker
Drug education and harm reduction may look more like preparation
Tep mentions Diplo doesn’t allow any drug use at his shows, alcohol is the only allowed substance
Tep thinks that he probably doesn’t know that alcohol is far worse than psychedelics and other drugs
Theraputic Use
When someone goes and has a vacation, they have certain chemicals released in their mind, it is still therapeutic, even if it’s not a psychedelic experience
“Not only can psychedelics be fun, they can also be therapeutic.” – Tep
Tep started going to camping style festivals and started hanging out with a crowd of people 10 years older than her, where their drug use was mature and mindful and safe
Then when she would hang around her younger friend group again, she realized how unsafe and unmindful their drug use was
It led her to be more active in wanting to educate everyone on how to use drugs properly
Exotic Compounds
Shulgin’s magical half dozen includes 2CB, 2CT2, and others
Tep mentions preference of truffles over mushrooms
Her and Joe bring up the decrease in potency of most drugs with exposure to moisture and time and other variables
Compound Isolation
There is a huge advantage of isolating the property of the drug when using them for therapy
For example, using isolated psilocybin vs mushrooms
The therapy is just as important as the substance
There is a way to find information in this community without getting a degree in it
About Tep
Tep is a chemical engineer who had an interest in modern psychedelic research. She is passionate about the EDM and music culture and finding new ways to educate drug users on harm reduction and drug use education.
In this unique episode, Dr. Peter Sjöstedt-H joins together in conversation with Dr. Andrew Gallimore, Author of Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game. In the show, these two Englishmen discuss Peter’s critique of Dr. Gallimore’s recent book.
3 Key Points:
Dr. Andrew Gallimore’s recent book, Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game, explains how DMT provides the secret to the very structure of our reality.
Based on a recently published review of Andrew’s book, Dr. Peter Sjöstedt-H sifts through and confronts Andrew’s idea that DMT allows one access to, and existence in a hyperspatial world.
They discuss Peter’s critique, covering topics on information, consciousness, dimensions, dreams and theory.
The first problem is a critique on what information is
The second point regards consciousness
The third point talks about dimensions and theories
Information
The first problem Peter states says that the originality of the work pushes the ideas further toward art and further away from truth
Andrew says he is a fan of making things a work of art, and he says at the start of the book that it isn’t something scientific
In philosophy it’s called speculative metaphysics
“It’s cliche isn’t it, that science fiction eventually becomes science fact.” – Peter
Minkowski Space Time, the theory that Einstein supports, HG Wells wrote about a half a century before Minkowski wrote about it
Peter says that a person could be defined by a set of numbers, weight, height, age, etc.
Andrew says that the information is the electron, and how it interacts with other information
How do we know that there is not more to anything than that which we can know about it?
How matter creates/is mind is a mystery
Consciousness
Peter asks, ‘does information at a high level produce subjectivity?’
Andrew says consciousness is fundamental
Panpsychism holds a distinction between an aggregate and a hold-on
Andrew says that integrated information is consciousness
Information doesn’t emerge from consciousness, information actually is consciousness
Andrew says that he is an idealist, he thinks that the world is structured
Peter says that information always has to be about something
Andrew disagrees and says that information is substantiated
You could say, the fundamental digits of our reality are ran by an ‘alien computer’, the physics completely different than our understanding of reality
Andrew says that the absolute self is not only aware of itself, its aware that it is aware of itself
He also says that these ideas are all musings, all things he has thought about as possibilities
Peter asks Andrew if he thinks brains are required for consciousness
Andrew says, consciousness is not a property of matter, it is an organization of things
Dimensions and Theories
Andrew says we don’t need senses to experience other worlds
The DMT experience is not mind dependent, it shows another reality
When you’re dreaming, it’s independent of the sensory experience, but its not entirely independent of the waking world
“The dream state is informed by the waking state.” – Andrew
Peter asks, ‘If the brain creates dreams, why does the brain not create the DMT world?’
“We know how the brain learns to construct worlds, but we don’t know how the brain learns to construct DMT worlds.” – Andrew
When looking at a machine elf, is he equally as able to deny his consciousness as we are able to?
Final Thoughts
Peter concludes that Andrew is a Realist/Panthiest
Peter and Andrew think that they don’t disagree with each other, but Peter believes Andrew would have to go into extremely deep detail on all of his points in his book, and the book is thick enough as it is
Peter agrees Andrew’s book is a great narrative for mapping the DMT space
Andrew likes to think of it as computational idealism
Dr. Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist, pharmacologist, chemist, and writer who has been interested in the neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is the author of a number of articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug, N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), as well as the book Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game (April 2019). He recently collaborated with DMT pioneer Dr. Rick Strassman, author of DMT: The Spirit Molecule, to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended journeys in DMT space. His current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gating access to extradimensional realities and how this can be understood in terms of the neuroscience of information. He currently lives and works in Japan.
About Dr. Peter Sjöstedt-H
Dr Peter Sjöstedt-H is an Anglo-Scandinavian philosopher of mind and a metaphysician who specializes in the thought of Whitehead and Nietzsche, and in fields pertaining to panpsychism and altered states of sentience. Following his degree in Continental Philosophy at the University of Warwick, he became a Philosophy lecturer in London for six years and has now passed his PhD (on ‘Pansentient Monism’, examined by Galen Strawson and Joel Krueger) at the University of Exeter, where he also teaches philosophy modules and writing skills. He is now to become a postdoc fellow of the university. Peter is the author of Noumenautics , the TEDx Talker on ‘psychedelics and consciousness‘, and he is inspiration to the inhuman philosopher Marvel Superhero, Karnak.
In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down to have a conversation about the 39th Annual Telluride Mushroom Festival, Healing the Mind, Healing the Planet. Joe attended the conference and heard from many amazing speakers.
3 Key Points:
Joe attended The 39th Annual Telluride Mushroom Festival last weekend, a festival and conference that celebrates all things fungal and brings together a cohort of enthusiasts, experts, and scientists.
There was a lot of talk on the topic of microdosing. Opinions ranged from the feeling that there isn’t enough valid data to prove that microdosing is effective, to some testimony on how microdosing has helped relieve cluster headaches or help with traumatic brain injuries.
There was some exciting news on innovative ways that mushrooms can be used medically to help fight disease or agriculturally to fight insects without using pesticides.
The Telluride Mushroom Festival took place August 14th – 18th
This festival is is a placeholder Psychedelic conference
In the mycology world, the psychedelic topic isn’t typically included in events
Attendees and Talks
Brick Bunyard, who runs psychedelic magazine
Tradd Cotter of Mushroom Mountain, an excitable mycologist
Larry Evans of Blue Portal
Teresa Egbert of Herbal Visionz, a Psychedelic enthusiast
Peter Hendrix and Sara Lappan spoke on a study for using psychedelics to curb cocaine use
David Nichols, chemist, was pretty optimistic about where the psychedelic movement is heading
He gave a super scientific talk around receptor sites and LSD
Music and Psychedelics
Joe says that there is a long history of music and psychedelics
Kyle mentions a podcast he listened to about someone bringing in their own music for a Ketamine therapy session
Psychedelic Therapy
There was someone at the conference that said psychedelic therapists should have psychedelic experiences and should be open about it
It was an interesting conversation at the conference
Joe says, “you don’t need PTSD to treat someone with PTSD, it’s not the most important factor. The most important factor is safety.”
Scientist Conference
Joe mentions a conference coming up in the fall in New Orleans that is a Scientist only conference
If a scientist has published serious, quantitative data they are invited
It’ll be the first gathering of its kind where there is finally enough data
Microdosing
David Nichols shared his opinion on microdosing, that there isn’t real data on it and that importance should be put toward medical uses
Folks in the audience were making claims about microdosing for migraines and traumatic brain injuries, etc
Are people taking sub-perceptual doses or a threshold dose?
Joe says a macro dose is a dose you can see (maybe the size of an ant), micro dose is something you need a microscope to see
The majority of people microdosing aren’t educating themselves on dose size
Interesting Moments from the Conference
Joe was surprised was how charismatic Tradd Cotter was
Tradd has plans to do mushroom retreats in Jamaica
The most exciting news is a new method of pulling out the antibiotic resistant ‘stuff’ in a person, culturing it out and introducing it to sterilized/colonized grain bag and then reintroducing it to the person so they aren’t antibiotic resistant anymore
This would be a mushroom bi-product that fights disease in humans in less than 24 hours
This same model could be used in cancer treatments or even agricultural applications, using mushrooms to fight disease or bugs that kill plants, etc
There were mushroom foraging walks and mushroom identification tables at the festival
Vendors included mushroom kombucha, mushroom jerky, festival clothing, etc
There was a guy from outside of Arizona who casts real psilocybin mushrooms and makes detailed metal jewelry out of them
The town is small and surrounded by super tall mountains, and the festival is dispersed around the town
It’s a small festival and a great way to make connections
“This is where you quit your job and dedicate your life to mushrooms” – Tradd Cotter
Mushroom farming is one of the few businesses you can start with under $5,000
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
Ayahuasca is a psychoactive tea traditionally used by indigenous communities of the Amazon rainforest for its powerful healing, purgative, divinatory, and visionary properties. As of late, and with the rise in use of DMT itself, ayahuasca is becoming majorly popular for the intense visions it induces, and which are usually attributed to DMT.
Although the brew’s potency is often recognized by its DMT component in the West, the plants that contain this compound are really just admixtures. The core ingredient of ayahuasca is the vine Banisteriopsis caapi, whose name in the indigenous Quichua language is actually aya waska (meaning “the vine of the soul” or “the vine of the dead”).
There are a number of scientific and cultural reasons why this vine is central to the ayahuasca brew. In this article, we will look into its potential as a healing agent and its place in the Amazonian indigenous lore.
Ayahuasca’s Rising Popularity
Ayahuasca has a wide range of ethereal applications: it’s used for diagnosis and healing, learning and training, social bonding and rite of passage rituals, creating hunting and agricultural strategies, finding missing objects or people, and various other kinds of shamanic activities. Its mystical properties have drawn a number of ethnobotanists and psychonautical enthusiasts to explore and chart the indigenous use of this powerful potion since the mid-20th century.
All the incredible documentation of Amazonian master plant healing practices has brought about the rise of ayahuasca tourism – the phenomenon of Western people visiting indigenous communities in order to take part in ayahuasca rituals.
After decades of development in tourism infrastructure and at a time when viral online information sharing is a highly prevalent means of communication, the brew’s unparalleled popularity can largely be attributed to the wild visions it presents its drinkers with.
Many believe that the source of these visions is the dimethyltryptamine molecule, the major active component in the admixture plants that go into most standard ayahuasca preparations. However, that’s all DMT is – one potential, but well-established additive to an already powerful healing and divinatory potion.
Ayahuasca is more than just DMT. To really understand this, it’s important to learn about the core constituent of this sacred brew – its primary ingredient dubbed the Vine of the Soul.
The Heart of the Brew – the Vine of the Soul
The most common ingredients that make up a typical ayahuasca brew are the vine Banisteriopsis caapi and the DMT admixtures: the shrub Psychotria viridis (also known as chacruna, meaning “mix” in Quichua) or, less commonly, Diplopterys cabrerana (also known as chaliponga or chagropanga). Although traditional brews will vary in their ingredients, all of them will contain B. caapi.
B. caapi contains three indole alkaloids with β-carboline structure: harmine and tetrahydroharmine (THH) in high amounts, and lower amounts of harmaline.
P. viridis and D. cabrerana contain DMT, known worldwide as The Spirit Molecule. DMT’s incredible psychoactive properties are likely the result of its role as an agonist at the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor.
The alkaloids in B. caapiare reversible MAOIs – they inhibit monoamine oxidase enzymes in our bodies, which normally metabolize orally ingested DMT before it can pass through the blood-brain barrier. With this inhibitory activity, DMT remains intact and can access the central nervous system.
The inhibition of both the MAO enzyme and serotonin reuptake systems as a result of ingesting harmine, harmaline, and THH causes a rise in the levels of serotonin and other monoamines. Ayahuasca’s highly potent antidepressant effects could be (at least in part) attributed to these neurochemical processes.
Aside from their effects on MAO enzymes and serotonin receptors, the β-carboline alkaloids in the B. caapi vine have been found to have antiparasitic and antimicrobial functions, as well asa host of other beneficial effects. A recent comprehensive scientific synthesis explains in great detail all we know so far about ayahuasca’s neurobiological workings and its actual and potential therapeutic and clinical implications.
When consumed on their own, harmine, harmaline, and THH have quite distinct and powerful effects.
According to a report from an experienced psychonaut, “Harmaline is a very mentally stoning drug, causing a foggy dreamy state of mind and making you a little shaky and a little disoriented at moderate doses. Harmine is more stimulating and more clear headed, not as disorienting, but otherwise quite similar to harmaline. Both cause a peaceful emotionally detached feeling. […] tetrahydroharmine feels almost completely different. Its main effect is mood enhancement and pleasant orgasmic tingling all over.”
Many other anecdotal reports available online confirm these characterizations.
Traditional preparations of ayahuasca
Furthermore, in traditional indigenous practice (i.e. in the preparations of the Napo Runa, the Sharanahua, the Tukano, and the Waorani, to name a few), the ayahuasca brew would often be made solely from the B. caapi vine, and it was only after the popularization of DMT’s effects among westerners that the DMT admixture plants became a universally present ingredient. The development of ayahuasca tourism brought about the need for facilitators of ayahuasca ceremonies to basically guarantee the visionary effects that have become well-publicized by their past visitors, and a yearning of their future ones.
Knowing about these therapeutic and psychotropic properties of the alkaloids in B. caapi, it’s no wonder that this vine has long been revered as the actual healing agent that catalyzes ayahuasca’s spiritual experience.
According to Terence McKenna, who popularized ayahuasca as not much more than “orally active DMT” in the first place, “[T]he action of the Banisteriopsis, as far as the visions are concerned, is to prevent the Psychotria from being neutralized by gastric enzymes” (Calavia, 2011:131). However, DMT-containing plants are just some of the 80 different plant species that have so far been identified as admixtures to traditional ayahuasca recipes (that number is estimated to be much greater in reality). Each plant modulates or enhances the total or partial effect of the brew, and B. caapi is a visionary plant in its own right.
An interesting fact is that many different varieties of B. caapi itself are used in ayahuasca preparations throughout the Amazon basin. Depending on the strain availability in their respective location, and the desired effect, different indigenous communities will use different varieties. These strains are often botanically identical, and the distinctions are only visible to well-trained eyes familiar with the vegetation in that specific part of the jungle.
Some of the commonly distinguished strains include:
red ayahuasca (ayahuasca colorada) – used almost always by shamans alone to exacerbate their ability to heal others;
white ayahuasca (ayahuasca blanca) – used to facilitate light or dark magic (brujeria), such as projecting spiritual darts (tsentsak) or defending against them;
yellow ayahuasca (ayahuasca amarilla) – widely cultivated and used strain, known for its gentle, but powerful healing properties, and crisp visionary aspect; often given to inexperienced drinkers;
sky/pink ayahuasca (ayahuasca cielo/rosada) – also a commonly used strain, but stronger than yellow, for more experienced drinkers;
black ayahuasca (ayahuasca negra) – very strong and not very visual – most of the visions are said to be drowned out by a thick black fog; intensely healing and purgative;
thunder ayahuasca (ayahuasca trueno) – only given to experienced drinkers, brews made with this ayahuasca cause intense bodily shaking and a violent purge;
Indian ayahuasca (ayahuasca india) – an ancient and extremely powerful strain which is only harvested from white sand rainforests and is not cultivated;
There are dozens more strains in use. Each has its role in the lives of the indigenous peoples who employ them, and their unique systems of beliefs about the spirits of the rainforest. Their names are given based on their purpose, but also based on the color of the plant (the flowers or the vine when the bark is scraped off), or the shade it gives to the visions.
As these strains belong to the same plant species, no scientific distinction has been made in terms of their chemical composition. However, knowing what we know about the individual effects of the β-carboline alkaloids, it’s safe to assume that the indigenous nomenclature may correlate with the alkaloid level ratios in different strains.
B. caapi has for centuries been revered by indigenous Amazonians as an omnipotent Master Plant – it’s their healer, their medium, their knower. Meanwhile, our knowledge about its components and effects is being broadened faster by independent psychonauts than by academic researchers. Western science needs to step up its inquiry into the vine’s therapeutic properties and substantiate the centrality of B. caapi in indigenous healing practices.
Xavier Francuski: With a background in research psychology and apprenticeships in ethereal worlds, Xavier tries to reconcile the astounding nature of the realms beyond with what sense we can make of them in this one. Xavier writes for EntheoNation.
These are the people who toil away in obscurity for years doing the hard lab work with little to no recognition for their efforts. It is my opinion that “science” gets way too much credit while real scientists (not celebrities in lab coats) should be the ones getting the credit and publicity of groundbreaking research. I believe that the recent DMT study published in Scientific Reports is by far the most important study in 2019 and all the scientists involved in the study should deserve wide name recognition and credit for their efforts. Credit needs to go to the following: lead author and fast-rising DMT researcher Jon Dean, Dr. Jimo Borjigin, Dr. Steven Barker, Dr. Rick Strassman, Dr. Michael M. Wang, Dr. Tiecheng Liu, Dr. Sean Huff, and Dr. Ben Sheler.
It’s difficult to recall the last time that I had a great meal and made the generic claim of “I love food”. Generally speaking, it’s either the restaurant that receives compliments, the type of meal that receives praise, or homage is paid to the chef directly. This is why it’s so amusing and yet perplexing when people seem to generically pronounce their “love for science” when an interesting study is published. Similarly to the cooks of a great meal… it is humans, people, scientists that actually carry out the experiments.
JC: So… while many people have heard the backstory of how Dr. Rick Strassman got involved in DMT research due to his book “The Spirit Molecule”, not many know about how you got your start in this field. Would you mind giving us a little bit of background as to how all of this came about?
Jimo: I had been working on the pineal gland and studying how dynamic secretion of melatonin from the pineal gland teaches us about how circadian clock works in the mid-2000. I was also teaching our graduate students about the pineal gland. One day in 2011, when I googled the word “pineal gland” (hoping to find some cool pictures to include for my class teaching), I came across Rick Strassman’s book (DMT: The Spirit Molecule) and the documentary about the book. I was very surprised when I heard Rick saying that DMT was made and secreted in the pineal gland, since I knew nothing about it. I emailed Rick directly and asked him for the evidence that his statement was based on, and was told that it was just his speculation. I told Rick that I was interested in testing his theory, as we were routinely performing pineal microdialysis experiments and I believed that if DMT is ever secreted from the pineal gland, we should have them in the dialysates. Rick was nice and encouraging; he introduced me to Steve Barker who routinely analyzing controlled substances in his lab, and the rest was history.
JC: Good stuff… so let’s just dive right into it…you did a really big study recently. I’m obviously biased but this is probably the most important study of the year for sure. Your research team found the circulating levels of DMT at similar levels to very commonly studied neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine. Being that you stated that this was found in the extracellular fluid am I correct in assuming that this is the cerebrospinal fluid? If so, where do you hypothesize that the DMT is synthesized in terms of the measurements you took at the cerebral cortex?
Jimo: Oh wow (laughing). Thank you I’m very flattered. Well, it’s within tissue in the extracellular space… we didn’t really stick a probe only into the brain ventricles where the cerebrospinal fluid is in abundance. We stuck our probe into the brain tissue where neurons are packed. So it is definitely extracellular. So, these are not the quantities within individual cells… I’m assuming that DMT is a neurotransmitter and it might be actually packed and stored inside the vesicles within neurons. The release is only activity-dependent if DMT is truly a neurotransmitter. The basal levels of the 3 monoamine neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine), which the DMT concentrations were compared with, were also assayed the same way. This means that they inserted a microdialysis probe into the brain to measure the basal level of those 3 neurotransmitters, which is why we think DMT is comparable.
JC: Where do you hypothesize that the DMT was synthesized when taking measurements at the cerebral cortex? Any specific cells?
Jimo: We believe that DMT is made in the neurons. The reason for that is the following… we showed that one of the DMT synthetic enzymes AADC which is also called DDC… the same protein with 2 different names. This is the first of the two DMT enzymes that converts tryptophan into tryptamine. It is essential for all other monoamine neurotransmitter synthesis, but it is also required for DMT synthesis. For a long time people knew that there are neurons in the cerebral cortex (really all over the brain) that contain AADC. However, none of the other 2 enzymes (tyrosine hydroxylase or tryptophan hydroxylase) that are essential for the synthesis of canonical monoamine neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine were found. It is tryptophan hydroxylase (-TPH2 in the brain) that is required for the synthesis of serotonin together with AADC; tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) together with AADC required for the synthesis of dopamine (and norepinephrine). So when people look for monoamine neurons that synthesize serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, … they always have to look for both enzymes (AADC + TH/TPH2). So in these scattered cortical neurons that contain AADC (called D-neurons), people couldn’t find either one of those enzymes (TH/TPH2). So clearly there is a lot of work to do for us to really have a thorough understanding of the details of the localization of potentially DMT produced in neurons in the brain. The reason we think these are neurons is because D-neurons were confirmed to be neurons in both human brains and animal brains in the cortex by others. But we still need to use a neuron-specific biomarker to measure the colocalization of a neuronal marker in the INMT- positive cells to thoroughly demonstrate that these neurons are the source of DMT or have the capacity to produce DMT.
JC: Prior to this study much of the discussion surrounding endogenous DMT from researchers in the field was based on stating that the lungs were the primary source of DMT.
Jimo: Right, right.
JC: From what I understand this was based on the levels of INMT found in the lungs… right?
Jimo: Correct! Yeah it’s amazing (laughing).
JC: But this recent study found not only INMT but AADC co-localized which we basically just covered. But in essence… the same people that were saying that DMT is not produced in the brain or not produced in the pineal gland…based on the INMT-DMT lung hypothesis it would seem that they would be forced to concede that DMT is produced in the brain now?
Jimo: Yeah (laughing)… I would think that any reasonable person would say that. It’s amazing to me that a lot of people were saying that DMT is made in the lungs. In the case of DMT production, it’s been known for a long time that it requires 2 enzymes and ideally, the 2 enzymes would be situated in the same cells in order for that cell to produce DMT. And yet… people are simply just looking at INMT expression and assuming that that alone is sufficient to produce DMT (without AADC).(
JC: Some people think that this study puts the pineal gland theory to rest. I feel like that’s not entirely correct.
Jimo: I think you’re right.
JC: This is the first study that actually shows that the human pineal gland has INMT/AADC in order to make DMT.
Jimo: Yes.
JC: While the extracellular levels of DMT in the cerebral cortex were similar between normal and pinealactomized rats, is it possible that the pineal produced DMT has a greater effect in the third ventricle or thalamus region in comparison to the cerebral cortex levels?
Jimo: Well… all I can say is that the neocortex can produce DMT in the absence of a pineal gland. Our study did not really address the issue of pineal DMT production. The fact is that in our data in the absence of the pineal gland the DMT levels go up (not significantly, though). Our data is relatively crude based on the fact that we surgically removed the pineal gland. When you yank the pineal gland out you disturb the blood-brain barrier a bit since the pineal gland is part of the blood-brain barrier preventing things from going in and out. So we don’t know why it goes up in the absence of the pineal gland. I haven’t given it too much thought but all we’re showing is that the brain doesn’t really require the pineal gland to produce DMT. The pineal may produce a small level of DMT but it’s clearly not contributing a huge amount. If the pineal gland produced 3X as much then we should have seen a difference. I strongly believe that the cortex (where we utilized our microdialysis probe) makes and secretes DMT independent of the pineal gland. The pineal gland is not essential and is not required… it doesn’t mean the pineal gland itself cannot make DMT since all the machinery is there. But we had a long paragraph in the discussion part of the paper discussing why we think the pineal gland may not contribute much to DMT production. If you look at the affinity of the AADC enzyme, it actually prefers to convert 5-hydroxtryptophan (5-HTP) into 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT). For serotonin production tryptophan is first converted to 5-hydroxtryptophan by TPH and the second step for serotonin synthesis is converting 5-hydroxytrytophan (5-HTP) to 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT); so apparently, AADC has a higher affinity for 5-HTP than tryptophan. So if both 5-HTP and tryptophan are around (in this case in the pineal gland) AADC would prefer to catalyze the reaction of 5-HTP to 5-HT… so it kind of ignores tryptophan. However, in other cells if AADC is only looking at tryptophan and if 5-HTP is not around, it should readily convert tryptophan to tryptamine.
JC: Are there any neurotransmitters or any endogenous biochemical(s) for that matter that have been identified to be rat specific in comparison to that of humans as far as we know? What I mean by this is whether there is any data to suggest that rats produce different biochemicals than humans in the brain or throughout the body?
Jimo: Usually when you go up the evolutionary tree, it is higher-order animals such as humans that have something that the rats don’t have and it doesn’t go the other way around. Especially being that both rats and humans are both mammals, so it’s highly unlikely. On the other hand, if you go down to invertebrates or lower vertebrates who have very unique habitats they may have stuff that humans don’t need. So my answer is NO, not as far as I know. There are genes and proteins only found in humans, but not in mice or rats. I am not aware of any genes or proteins present only in rats but not in humans.
JC: So that would mean that for someone to claim that DMT is not found in the human brain because the research only took place in live rats (although you took in vitro sampling of human brains that observed the same exact enzymes that rats produced in order to synthesize DMT) that they would be making claims that fall outside the scope of scientific data to date?
Jimo: Unless I’m mistaken Dr. Steven Barker has already measured DMT in the brains of deceased individuals and trace amounts in their blood. This could be a question for Steven regarding the solid evidence of showing DMT is found and collected from humans. All reasonable people would agree that if human brains are found to express both INMT and AADC, it is highly likely that DMT will be made in the human brain. The next step would be to stick a probe in a live human’s brain so we could monitor DMT at a level comparable to other neurotransmitters but usually, that level of proof is rarely demanded for research because it is so unusual to be able to get samples using such invasive techniques. No one would want to volunteer for that kind of experiment being that it comes with some kind of risk. So I don’t believe it is necessary. Having experimental proof from humans would certainly help, but it is not always feasible to do so.
JC: I think all the hard-nosed “skeptics” continuing to question whether humans brains produce DMT following this recent study should volunteer for the brain-probe study…
Jimo: (laughing) But remember we don’t want to really make any enemies. My take is that unless you have evidence against the human brain-DMT hypothesis there isn’t much to say. We are doing our best effort.
JC: Going back to the yanking out of the pineal gland… Being that DMT has been observed to have anti-inflammatory properties, is it possible that yanking out the pineal gland causes cerebral inflammation-inducing a periphery response to synthesize more DMT to alleviate this then causing the levels to go up?
Jimo: That is highly unlikely as in the periphery, there are very few cells that contain both AADC and INMT in contrast to the brain. Plus, if there were any inflammation, it should be within the brain near where the pineal gland was in touch with, which is not known to exert peripheral inflammatory responses. We performed numerous pineal removal surgeries over the years, have never observed any signs of notable inflammatory responses in rats.
(JC Note: I didn’t clarify when I stated “periphery.” I meant the periphery area of the brain in near proximity to the pineal gland wound not peripheral nervous system outside of the brain. It was my fault for not clarifying.)
JC: Ok. I find it super interesting that much of the same team that did this study also did the 2013 cardiac arrest study which observed the global and coherent surge in gamma waves in the brain. Based on the literature out there it seems as though exogenous DMT and Ayahuasca also induce increases in gamma waves. Do you believe that there is a possibility of a tight correlation between the upregulation of endogenous DMT and gamma activity?
Jimo: Well… in this recent paper we didn’t even have cardiac arrest in the title so it wasn’t our focus. The main message from this recent paper is that DMT can be produced and released from the neurons in the brain at the level that is comparable to other monoamine neurotransmitters. My students are super excited about our 2013 cardiac arrest paper and the link between the DMT and near- death experiences. The two areas of studies (near-death consciousness and DMT) emerged coincidentally at the same time in our lab as 2 independent branches of research which appear to have the potential to converge into a related research theme. Clearly Rick Strassman talked about this hypothesis and the idea has been floating around out there for many years and it sounds reasonable. In the recent paper, we wanted to know whether there was anything that could upregulate or downregulate DMT release. So when we induced experimental cardiac arrest in animals, their DMT levels went up in some but not all animals, which is interesting. The recent study was not done to demonstrate DMT levels in cardiac arrest but it was more based on showing that there are physiological events that can increase DMT. Some kind of physiological event can regulate DMT release. Regulated release of chemicals is required steps for something to be called a neurotransmitter. We are trying to push this work toward demonstrating DMT as a neurotransmitter. Some interpret our data as DMT being linked to NDE’s which is not my intention or the goal of the study; but clearly a lot of people are interested in the study because of that potential link. However, for DMT-NDE to be linked, we would have to do the same exact study we did in our 2015 PNAS paper where we monitored neurotransmitter release at 60 second intervals and measured the amounts of neurotransmitters released… and it was a huge amount. Within 2 minutes of asphyxic cardiac arrest, dopamine went up, norepinephrine went up, serotonin went up, GABA went up… not all neurotransmitters went up so high though. Glutamate only went up 2-fold… so it’s a massive release of various neurotransmitters, a tightly regulated process that happens super- fast. So we would have to monitor the release of DMT at a finer resolution in order to really say anything about whether DMT is potentially involved. That study still remains to be done.
JC: I guess what I’m asking you is to maybe hypothesize about… in the 2013 study you saw a huge surge in global gamma waves. Basically faster brain activity…
Jimo: Yes.
JC: In the 2015 study you basically saw a “brainstorm” in which a bunch of neurotransmitters were upregulated.
Jimo: Yes.
JC: Do you think it’s that far-fetched to think that DMT might be a part of that biochemical mix and that it could contribute to the gamma wave correlation or is that still too speculative?
Jimo: It’s possible. I guess until we do the experiment we’re not sure, we don’t know. There’s a possibility that those 2 are linked.
JC: In terms of a definitive way to know whether DMT is tightly correlated with gamma waves… is that something that you could figure out with an INMT-KO animal?
Jimo: Yeah… I think if a gamma surge disappeared then that might be a way to support the hypothesis.
JC: That makes sense… but it wouldn’t even really have to disappear necessarily right? It could just be affected.
Jimo: Correct… yes.
JC: Switching gears… One of the biggest issues I’ve seen is that people are so excited about psychedelic research and there seems to be a decent amount of funding for the field but I think that the endogenous research is even more interesting.
Jimo: I think so too (laughing). I agree with you there.
JC: Much of the psychedelic research these days focuses on fMRI studies so it seems like cerebral blood flow seems to be the predominant measure of perceived activity. However, in a yet to be published interview I did with Dr. Mauro Zappaterra he stated that based on his research, cerebrospinal fluid can act as a signaling medium being that it can carry the neurotransmitters and signaling throughout the brain on a global level. This would seem to add another layer of complexity in terms of analyzing brain activity when comparing fMRI to EEG. What are your thoughts regarding this?
Jimo: FMRI monitors changes associated with blood flow. Robin Carhart- Harris has done psychedelic work with fMRI and the subjects actually show the lowering of fMRI measures. It’s a different mode of regulation so we don’t really know… I wish when Rick Strassman did his study he had everybody monitored for EEG or fMRI to see what happened to them. My guess is that study is coming and somebody is working on that. We can easily do an EEG study on animals but we just cannot ask them what they experience. Sooner or later it will have to be done.
JC: It’s interesting that fMRI shows a decrease in whatever might be termed as brain activity but in EEG studies it shows that there’s an increase in faster oscillations and a decrease in slower ones.
Jimo: Right.
JC: A lot of stuff to uncover there…
Jimo: Correct.
JC: While the recent study focused on DMT and the enzymes INMT and AADC… what are your thoughts on researching endogenous monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) such as tribulin, tryptoline, neurocatin or pinoline and their relationship with endogenous DMT?
Jimo: Yeah, there is a lot to do and the future research is just wide- open for these questions to be addressed. Our study simply points out that there is a whole new world out there for people who are interested in the molecular basis of altered states of consciousness and a potential new direction for looking into psychiatric disorders. So I think there are lots of interesting things that can happen but right now we have to focus on something that the National Institutes of Health (NIH) could consider funding. We have to convince them that this is something that may be medically relevant and that we’re not just thinking about euphoric states and psychedelic states… something that can benefit patients.
JC: Yeah… would you consider private funding?
Jimo: Oh yeah totally.
JC: We’ll go off the record with that discussion…
Jimo: (laughing)
JC: Do you have any interest in replicating this recent study but also measuring levels of 5-MEO-DMT and Bufotenine?
Jimo: Oh yeah. Once again this is another area that is wide open that one can do. It all depends… once again… on funding. Right now people are lined up to want to work in my lab. Every year, lots of graduate students contact me for a position my lab; and the first thing I tell them is: I am sorry that I can’t take you in my lab because I don’t have NIH funding for DMT research.
JC: (Cutting in) Horrible
Jimo: (laughing) That’s the standard answer for several years now. I just recently accepted a very good student who insisted on joining my group regardless of the lack of NIH funding. In any case, we try to collaborate with people that have grants to make it happen; but the key is to have research funding to support the DMT endeavor.
JC: Absolutely. That’s one of the most frustrating things I see in terms of scientific research. There’s so much money that goes into genetic research and things of that nature but there’s so little funding that goes into endogenous DMT research by comparison.
Jimo: There are various ways that this line of research can now be supported because we’ve shown that DMT is really in the brain and may serve some kind of functions; we just need funding support to do more studies. That’s why I’m happy to discuss this research with the media, so we can raise more awareness and hopefully garner funding for our DMT research. Scientists tend to stay in their labs and do their own research and it takes years to get their data out there to be in the public and to gain support from the public. I think that the publicity this paper has created (which surprised me) may generate a lot of interest.
Jimo: (laughing) I think it would be faster to just wait for the paper to be published right? I don’t know who the author of the paper is though.
JC: It was a study in which the author of the paper passed away so that’s why Dr. Barker said it didn’t end up getting published.
Jimo: Oh. I see.
JC: I think it would be a really interesting replication study in the sense of Barker’s speculations that we have an endogenous hallucinatory system and that a lot of hallucinogens might just be activating that system rather than simply acting on their own.
Jimo: That’s interesting… hmmm. Yeah… well… I’m not sure. There are so many things to do. We have to choose wisely… I have to pick my fights wisely (laughing). I guess it depends on whether the funder is really interested in pushing that line of research and if it’s somehow in-line with my own interest. I am interested in things like demonstrating that DMT is a neurotransmitter which is something that requires some work, and establishing the whole system of DMT centric neurotransmission. Beyond that… as far as looking at the homologues and endogenous system… like you said monoamine oxidase inhibitors and the recent study you mentioned regarding Barker & LSD, there are a lot of interesting things to do (laughing). It would require more dedicated, highly motivated students and people working hard to making it happen.
Jimo: Gamma waves need to be mediated by neurotransmitter secretion that is acting on the post-synaptic neurons. So there has to be a neurochemical reaction that translates into electrical signaling. So I wouldn’t be surprised at all if DMT could be one of the many neurochemicals (not the only one), contributing to the experience although it could be a key chemical. The only real way to test how much DMT plays a role in the experience is to have a DMT deficient human (or group of them) undergo the “God Helmet” and have them report the types of experiences they have and compare them to people secreting DMT normally. So basically I would say that it is not impossible, unless data shows otherwise.
JC: Do you know if there are any methods to induce respiratory fluctuations in animals without inducing anesthesia? The reason why I ask is because breathing techniques such as the Wim Hof Method (WHM), Stan Grof’s Holotropic Breathwork, Joe Dispenza’s meditation, and the more ancient yogic renditions (Pranayama) have all been cited to induce visionary states when carried out for prolonged periods of time. There’s much speculation regarding DMT’s involvement and based on our conversation (and recent study) it wouldn’t be the least bit surprising as to the upregulation of DMT (alongside everything else) from these breathing exercises. Is it feasible to do a comparable study of breathing exercises in live animals?
Jimo: It’s something that I haven’t looked into so I don’t have an answer right now. Changes in breathing patterns can lead to excitation in the central nervous system. In an animal model I think you can create alterations to their trachea… it would be kind of a reversible time-controlled experiment in which you stimulate the nervous system of the animal to breathe harder. Experimentally it seems doable, as long as there are animal models to induce hyperventilation similar to that as humans it’s possible. I’m almost thinking it would be much faster and easier to do this study in humans but the invasive nature of measurement is an issue.
JC: I hear you Jimo. If it was up to you… what would you say are the top 5 studies that need to take place within this field that you are specifically focused on right now?
Jimo: The first one is that DMT is actually a neurotransmitter. After that, we would like to know how the DMT synthesis is controlled; and how it’s release is regulated. My prediction is that some of the regulatory mechanisms in charge of DMT release might be dysfunctional in patients with psychiatric disorders that feature hallucinations. We know that DMT has hallucinatory properties, so it’s not too far-fetched to predict the link there. The potential role of DMT in regards to Near Death consciousness remains to be experimentally tested explored with the gamma waves as you discussed in your blog. That’s something we can easily do to demonstrate that endogenous DMT can stimulate gamma waves.
JC: Ok.
Jimo: And, of course, whether DMT contributes to neural correlates of dream states is also an interesting question.
Jimo: So we’re not the first one to bring up the lack of funding! (laughing)
JC: It’s amazingly horrible. In terms of the human studies… do you have any ideas on how you might go about doing endogenous human studies? Have you looked into any of the technology out there that might be able to do it less invasively?
Jimo: Well… I believe there are human patients who are helped and being diagnosed with a microdialysis setup in certain parts of their brain. I think if we can find patients like that, we could potentially collaborate with their physicians or scientists who are working with those patients and maybe get a sample from them.
JC: That makes sense… like somebody being treated for hydrocephalus or something?
Jimo: Yeah something like that or even from someone undergoing surgery for brain tumor removal. Their brains are already exposed so maybe we can share a little bit of CSF from them and monitor their levels while the patients are alive.
JC: Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Have you heard much about a technology called proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy? I was reading that it has the ability to measure brain fluctuations in glutamate and glutathione non-invasively. Would this be applicable to DMT?
Jimo: Hmm… I’m not sure. I haven’t really looked into any measurement of DMT in humans yet. But that’s something to look into once we’re going that route… I’ll think about that (laughing).
JC: Well Jimo… it seems like I have some work to do in terms of reaching out to some people to try and get your lab some funding to continue this very important research. Thank you very much for your time… do you have anything you’d like to say in closing?
Jimo: What I’d like to emphasize is how important collaboration is to make science happen, not just the funding. If Rick (Strassman) did not introduce me to Steve Barker, our first DMT paper (Barker et al., 2013) would not have been materialized, and Jon Dean, the first author of our DMT paper and a very dedicated graduate student passionate about psychedelic research, would not have joined my team to produce the current publication (Dean et al., 2019). Collaboration with Mike Wang (a co-author on the Dean paper) on the role of a stroke on sleep and circadian rhythms in rats allowed us to discover the surge of neurochemicals in the brain of dying rats, which ultimately lead to the discovery of the surge of gamma activities in the dying rats. Collaboration with George Mashour’s group was essential for the computational analysis of the brain’s electrical signals (Borjigin et al., 2013). Collaboration with Bob Kennedy’s laboratory allowed the high resolution (every 60-sec) measurement of neurotransmitters in dying rats (Li et al., 2015). All I can say in closing is that I have been extremely fortunate to be able to work with these fantastic scientists. Teamwork rocks!
People must remember that “science” is a methodology… it’s not a living organism that makes decisions. “Science” is not even an organization with people within it that makes decisions. “Science” does not have the inherent intelligence to allocate funding opportunities to important, world-changing endeavors. This is because “science” is merely a methodology just like cooking is the method of preparing a meal. Methodology is great and all but it is hardly what makes the world change… it is people that make the world change.
I must admit… I’ve grown to loathe the praising of the term “science” as it is such a misunderstood and misused the term. Scientists are the organisms that propel the knowledge base further so that other organisms (the general public) can reap the rewards. The praise and acknowledgment should go to scientists who work in important fields of research (no… not all fields of scientific research are important). I’m expecting this interview to generate 200,000 to 300,000 reads by the end of the year so for those of you that are interested in seeing endogenous DMT research propelled further… please realize that it won’t happen on its own. This entire field of research has been lagging tremendously since the 1970’s financially speaking. It is embarrassing that with an annual budget of over $39 billion dollars that the NIH still refuses to allocate any amount to endogenous DMT research. One would figure that if the NIH can spend $3.2 million studying the effects of alcohol in monkeys, it can surely spend the same amount on a field that the general public is extremely interested in such as endogenous DMT. In any case, it’s been estimated that there are nearly 2,500 billionaires in the world and likely over 50,000 hundred millionaires (people with $100,000,000 or more). There is enough private funding out there collecting dust that could change this endogenous DMT research industry in a very short time frame. If you’re reading this right now you are already aware of the importance of this topic. I ask you, readers, to assist this movement and reach out to whatever contacts you might have that have access to private funding that has the courage to financially back this very important field of studies. And somebody… anybody and everybody sends this interview to Joe Rogan as he discusses DMT quite often on his podcast and has the reach to help in this endeavor of fundraising. I’m tired of waiting for the NIH to get it right.
E-mail us at dmtquest@gmail.com if you have any comments or $50 million to plunk down into “DMT/Endohuasca” research. DMT Quest is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization dedicated to raising funds primarily for endogenous DMT/Endohuasca research as well as providing media material (documentaries, articles, podcasts) to present the results of this research in layman’s terms. You can learn more about the DMT Quest project by visiting dmtquest.org. We can help fund Jimo’s research as well as other vastly underfunded DMT researchers throughout the world.
About the Author
John A. Chavez is an independent researcher that is interested in the biological correlates of “supernatural” occurrences.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Daniel Shankin, Founder of Tam Integration. They cover topics including the Psilocybin Summit, child rearing, and integration practice.
3 Key Points:
The Psilocybin Summit is an online conference on the myth, magic and science of psychedelic mushrooms.
Psychedelic Integration is really a form of reparenting ourselves. We need to learn to ask ourselves how we can connect deeply without becoming codependent.
Child rearing is an important topic. Nurturing a child with care and love is similar to the way we use psychedelics, meditation and yoga for healing.
Daniel came up in the psychedelic space in the 90’s
Recreational use turned into therapeutic use
He explains that as enlightenment called to him, it also called him to do shadow work
He said the transformational work began in his 20’s
He said there was no community so he used Ram Dass books to help with integration
Daniel says that psychedelics made him feel a deeper sense of life, more responsibility in his role on earth, feel more connected, etc.
His calling from these feelings led him to practice yoga, open a studio, provide trainings and more
“People gain so much by being heard” – Daniel
Child Rearing
Daniel mentions talking to his wife about conscious child raising
The conversation is about how to heal, not just talking about how to raise ourselves so we need less healing
“How do I raise a baby with as little trauma as possible?” – Daniel
Grof talks about the birth process in his books but kind of stops talking about trauma after the baby is out
The baby is designed to be held by the mother, and to put that child in a box with other children in boxes without parents, in a cold and sterile environment is a horrible idea
We project our own anti-social tendencies onto babies
A baby is meant to have constant connection and attention, and when we give a baby neglect, we wonder why they have addiction, depression, etc.
Psychedelic Integration is really a form of reparenting ourselves
“How much deep connection can you offer and can you stand? How can I connect deeply without becoming codependent?” – Daniel
Attachment and Healing
As a yoga teacher for 20 years, he has found that there is a type of reparenting, that it is helping people to learn to help themselves
“Caring for people is a good thing to practice, one of our greatest problems is self-centeredness” – Daniel
Money isn’t the problem, “my money” is the problem
Samskara is a subtle tendency of the mind (like an eroded river)
The tendency to prove that we exist, or to prove that we are right, is something that the ego promotes
It takes energy to tame the ego and recondition ourselves
“Am I trying to prove that I exist in order to feel loved?” If our needs are met and we feel safe and loved, we don’t need to prove ourselves
We tend to look for the quickest and easiest way possible for the least amount of suffering, we look for the quick fix, but there is a lot of work to be done typically
It’s important to introduce a meditation practice into a psychedelic practice
Babies will cry into an endless void because they don’t understand time, just like in breathwork or psychedelic sessions, where time is distorted
Mindfulness of Enthusiasm
Enthusiastic consent is where you can press someone into giving you consent
Are they enthusiastic about engaging with you? If not, then don’t
The 920 Coalition is doing for psilocybin what 420 is doing for cannabis
There has never been a conference that is just psilocybin, and never fully online and live
It allows people to attend a conference from home
There is no venue to pay for, no tickets for travel, making it more accessible
The goal is to get as much traditional information as possible
Daniel says he’s not advocating psychedelics, he is advocating meditation for those who use psychedelics
Daniel hopes that with this conference, that he didn’t choose the speakers to just spit facts, hopefully this is heart and mind education that helps people feel like there is something possible in their lives that makes them feel greater, and that may or may not include psilocybin
Coaching vs. Therapy
Some people do not need therapy, they need coaching and accountability
We live in a world where our context does not always work to serve us
After a profound and intense awakening experience in 1998, Daniel dove deep into his yoga and meditation practice to stabilize his realization in his body and the world. He began teaching in 2002, and took over leadership of his neighborhood yoga studio in 2004. He’s directed several teacher training programs and taught on the faculty of even more. Daniel ‘Sitaram Das’ Shankin has dedicated his life to the cultivation of clarity, resilience, and heart. With the recognition that our true nature is vast and generous, wise, he strives to serve his clients in finding their own innate goodness and boundless strength. He currently offers leadership coaching with a heavy emphasis on mindfulness and somatics, and is based in Marin County. You can visit his website and learn more about coaching opportunities at sitaramdas.com.
Download In this episode, Kyle sits down to chat with Greg Kieser, Founder of think-tank, Supersystemic.ly and author of Dear Machine, a book written as a letter to a future super-intelligent entity. Topics covered include blockchain, AI, money, Psychedelic Investments and how psychedelics can help humanity prepare for the emergence of super-intelligent entities.
3 Key Points:
Blockchain offers an enormous amount of opportunity, by taking data that would otherwise be protected by government or big corporations, and making it accessible to the general population for a more accessible information source.
Money is this interesting concept, that we are storing our time, our energy and our goods in a piece of paper. Psychedelics can help with this, be rewiring the way we think about money and the overall exchange for goods and services.
Psilocybin is a cure, its use does not need to be continued for it to work, so Compass Pathways is highly incentivized to continue to heal new people, which is what we want, healing at scale.
Greg worked at a foundation in NYC aimed at reducing the rate of poverty
He started an angel investment firm/think tank, Supersystemic.ly
He wrote the book, Dear Machine, a letter to a future, super-intelligent entity
Looking to the Past
Our nutrition narrowed when we became farmers
“The truth is, we can’t go back to where we came from, we have to go to a new place, so how do we do that?” – Greg
There is such difficulty with people living in clusters (cities) and transporting all of the food in from the country
It’s important for the psyche to get back to nature and even taking on a hobby as simple as gardening can be so healing
Children’s immune system has been shown to become stronger when living on farms and playing with animals and in the dirt
Psychedelics are helpful in understanding how interconnected everything is
Integration of Technology
Blockchains have the capacity to take data and pull it into a place where we have more control over it (can’t be bought or sold)
When we combine our knowledge of technology with psychedelics, we will really start to progress as a species
Block Chain
The creator of Bitcoin created BlockChain, which is a type of database that lives out on the internet that no one can own
It offers an enormous amount of opportunity, by taking data that would otherwise be protected by government or big corporations, and making it accessible to the general population for a more accessible information source
Greg mentions a block chain that will be a regeneration of land
Maybe all the members donate $50 to the block chain, and those members then can follow the progress of a pond or the growth of a tree, etc
Its a good example of a block chain being used for good
Money
Money is this interesting concept, that we are storing our time, our energy and our goods in a piece of paper
Psychedelics can help with this, be rewiring the way we think about money and the overall exchange for goods and services
AI
AI is going to get more and more powerful and corporations and governments are going to want to get their hands on AI for more power
In Dear Machine, Greg wrote about a super aware machine that helps us to make super intelligent decisions based on what food to eat (based on our microbes, our genetics, what is the most sustainable for the environment, etc)
Greg fears that the government will try to take control of it and have its own agenda, but he thinks that with super awareness for decision making, that good will win
Kyle mentions that the Western mind is so obsessed with Apocalypse
AI and Superintelligence are going to accelerate whatever systems we already have in place
If it happened right now, it would look ugly
But, if we create a world that appreciates interconnectedness and the diversity and complexity of our minds and our bodies, then we will be in a much better place
Psychedelics have a huge role to play, it allows us to appreciate things, it helps get our ego out of the way, it helps us break addiction
Monoculturization has led to a lot of bad things
“Don’t try to change the system, just make a new system” – Buckminster Fuller
Human well being and environmental stability are two metrics that we need to work on
Interest in Psychedelics
Greg’s interest in psychedelics began when we was invited to Psilocybin ceremonies
He said it just ‘clicks’
“You really don’t understand what psychedelics are until you take them” – Greg
He then began to invest in psychedelics, microbiomes, agriculture, etc
Compass Pathways
The main problem with the health system is that we get into the idea of patenting molecules
Psilocybin is a molecule that can’t be patented, so he’s not worried
Greg wants to see psilocybin use at a larger scale, so the medical model is a great way to get there
As a part of Compass Pathway’s program, in order to be a therapist and provide the therapy, you have to go through the therapy yourself
Psilocybin is a cure, its use does not need to be continued for it to work, so Compass is highly incentivized to continue to heal new people, which is what we want, healing at scale
Looking Ahead
Greg is most excited to see healing from opioid addiction
Alcohol and tobacco fall under that in his hopes for healing
Greg is also really excited about the microbiome and the gut connection to the rest of the body
There was an Autism study that gave people with Autism a microbe transplant from healthy people and after 2 years there has been a remission of symptoms Microbiome Reddit
Greg Kieser is founder of Supersystemic.ly, a Brooklyn-based think-tank and angel investment firm dedicated to increasing humanity’s readiness for the emergence of superintelligent entities through the study and spread of “supersystemic” perspectives and innovations. Kieser, whose university and independent studies of complex systems science form the operating thesis of the company, founded Supersystemic.ly after more than a decade overseeing a portfolio of technology initiatives at an NYC-based poverty-fighting foundation. His work at the foundation was driven by a complex set of metrics for measuring the impact of investments on the economic, physical and mental well-being of low-income New Yorkers. Dear Machine, and to a greater extent the company, unites his unique skills and knowledge in technology, social investing and complex systems science.
Download In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. David Nichols, American Pharmacologist and Chemist. Dr. Nichols has made many contributions to the psychedelic space and is recognized as one of the foremost experts for his outstanding efforts in medicinal chemistry of hallucinogens.
3 Key Points:
Dr. David Nichols is the founder of The Heffter Research Institute, which promotes research of the highest scientific quality with the classic hallucinogens and psychedelics in order to contribute to a greater understanding of the mind leading to the improvement of the human condition, and to alleviate suffering.
Dr. Nichols has a strong opposition toward the DMT/pineal gland theory. The assumption is that DMT is released during birth and death, but Dr. Nichols presents opposing arguments as to why it isn’t true.
David doesn’t believe in the research of microdosing psychedelics. He believes there are many other diseases and disorders that research money could be put toward discovering drugs for than the potential for heightened creativity with microdosing.
He is the founding President of Heffter Research Institute
He was introduced to psychedelics before he went to graduate school
David’s work was never interrupted during the drug war because he wasn’t doing any clinical work
He proposed the study for MDMA testing on rats for a micro-dialysis of chemicals being released from the brain
David’s History of Substances
David attended a meeting at the Esalon Institute
He met Rick Doblin, a young kid at the time, who was enthusiastic about MDMA and Marijuana
Rick decided he wanted to develop MDMA as a drug, and asked David to make it with him
Then David met Rick Strassman, who asked him to make DMT
So he made the DMT and then DMT Spirit Molecule came out as a result
David made the first batch of psilocybin for John Hopkins
“The only way to use these substances, is to use the medical model.” – David
Microdosing
David doesn’t agree with microdosing, he thinks its all just a big hype
He says that there is a huge placebo effect with microdosing
He says there isn’t a lot of proven results and literature to make him believe in it
He thinks that there are far too many other things to research and create drugs to cure (like eating disorders for example) vs. just heightening creativity with microdosing
David edited Torsten Passie’s book, The Science of Microdosing Psychedelics
DMT
Rick Strassman’s DMT hypothesis is that upon birth and death, the Pineal gland produces DMT, which produces an outer-body experience
David says that the pineal gland is too small, it’s only 180mg
It produces 25 micrograms of melatonin in 24 hours, so there is no way for it to produce 25 milligrams of DMT, the amount needed for a DMT trip
Heffter Origins
Heffter Research Institute was David’s idea
Arthur Heffter was a scientist with a PhD in Pharmacology and Chemistry
He was one of the most well respected Scientists in Germany
He got samples of Peyote, and knew there were alkaloids in it, and he separated all the alkaloids, and took each alkaloid himself to find out that mescaline was the active component in Peyote
He was the expert who invented hair tests to find out if people were suffering from lead poisoning
Heffter Research Institute
The effects that they discovered from Psilocybin blew them away
They knew LSD had powerful effects, but they weren’t expecting to find the therapeutic benefits that they did with Psilocybin
Psilocybin has a great timeline too, LSD is really long lasting, and 5-MEO-DMT is super short and really powerful
Psilocybin is great for use in therapy because of the time it allows for integration
GMP Psilocybin Patent
Joe mentions the patent of GMP Psilocybin and asks if there are other ways to make psilocybin
David says that he believes there are other ways to make Psilocybin
The cost of psilocybin is trivial in comparison to the cost of therapy, David doesn’t think that the drug itself will have a monopoly
Dr. Nichols originally conceived of a privately funded Institute as the most effective mechanism for bringing research on psychedelic agents into the modern era of neuroscience. This vision led to the founding of the Heffter Research Institute in 1993. He is currently an Adjunct Professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC, where he continues his research. The focus of his graduate training, beginning in 1969, and of much of his research subsequent to receiving his doctorate in 1973 has been the investigation of the relationship between molecular structure and the action of psychedelic agents and other substances that modify behavioral states. His research has been continuously funded by government agencies for more three decades. He consults for the pharmaceutical industry and has served on numerous committees and government research review groups. Widely published in the scientific literature and internationally recognized for his research on centrally active drugs, he has studied all of the major classes of psychedelic agents, including LSD and other lysergic acid derivatives, psilocybin and the tryptamines, and phenethylamines related to mescaline. Among scientists, he is recognized as one of the foremost experts on the medicinal chemistry of hallucinogens. His high standards and more than four decades of research experience set the tone to ensure that rigorous methods and quality science are pursued by the Institute.
In this episode, Kyle sits down with Dr. Torsten Passie, Professor of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy with the Hanover Medical School in Germany. In the show, they cover a range of topics on Dr. Passie’s studies on microdosing.
Dr. Torsten Passie will be taking part in a special panel dedicated to microdosing at Breaking Convention 2019 (August 16-18, Greenwich, London), also featuring Amanda Fielding of the Beckley Foundation, Dr David Erritzoe of Imperial College, London, Dr Devin Turhune (Goldsmiths), and Dimitris Liokaftos, exploring myriad aspects of microdosing, including its effects, unknowns, and media representation presented by BC director Nikki Wyrd. Find out more about Breaking Convention: https://www.breakingconvention.co.uk/
3 Key Points:
Psychedelic research in the University setting died off after 2004, but is finally seeing an increase as the psychedelic revolution continues to grow.
There is very little to no documentation of doctors doing self-experimenting with psychedelic drugs. It’s becoming popular for therapists to use the substances used on their patients, more common to do the self-work before doing the work on others.
Even if microdosing does not produce any significant effects and it is all placebo, the trend is a new way to introduce it into our society.
Dr. Passie has been researching psychedelics for 25 years
He specializes in the therapeutic use of psychedelic drugs
He has found difficulties in researching psychedelics during prohibition
Dr. Passie had a mystical experience before using psychedelics and then became interested in psychedelic use
He had grown up as an atheist, a materialist, and his experience required him to change his psychological state
His perception of reality was irritated and he had to see a therapist to integrate this experience
He said that this was frustrating because he was young and still in search for his identity
Through all of this, he decided to study medicine and become a psychedelic doctor
He became very conscious that he was on the right track
Research Studies
The researchers were the only ones doing studies on psychedelic states, there wasn’t much happening at the Universities
He did studies with cannabis, ketamine and even laughing gas
The research then was on how cannabinoids can help with psychosis
They were not successful with that, but it came to be that CBD was a neuroleptic and an anti-psychotic
Research pretty much stopped after 2004 due to new laws and the cost of the research
Dr. Passie does mention that in the past 10 years research has really taken off again and that we are really seeing the renaissance of psychedelic culture
In most of the literature of doctors doing self-experimenting, there is very little to no documentation of doctors doing self-experimenting with psychedelic drugs
Kyle mentions that MAPS has included into their training protocol to allow for therapists to have self-experiments with the substances that they are using on patients
Kyle also mentions he can’t imagine trying to hold space in breathwork without having had his own experiences with breathwork
Dr. Passie says that the history of self-experimentation with psychedelics has shown that the participants can become ‘gurus’ and lose their objectivity, he uses Timothy Leary as an example
But with only a few times of self-experimentation, maybe 2-4 times, he doesn’t see risks
HPPD
Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD) is a disorder in which a person has flashbacks of visual hallucinations or distortions experienced during a previous hallucinogenic drug experience
Dr. Passie thinks there is a selection bias in what is published about HPPD
Its more common to have a study published that talks about an adverse effect of LSD than a benefit of it
Hundreds of thousands of studies were conducted in the 50’s, and no one claimed that this phenomenon came up
And now one person has conducted a study, claiming that this phenomena exists
Dr. Passie says that this pattern happens among people who are prone to anxiety and who are dissociative
He says that most subjects that claim to experience HPPD, have experienced visuals even before ever taking LSD
Microdosing
It has been known to not have any effects from 15-20 micrograms of LSD
20-50 micrograms of LSD is considered mini-dosing, where you can feel some type of effects from it, but not as much as the full dose
Dr. Passie says it is strange for people to claim to have increased cognition during microdosing based on conventional data that shows that LSD produces poor cognitive function
He thinks that whatever the effects are of LSD at a high dose, that the effects at a low dose are the same, just less, not completely different effects
He believes that there is some placebo effect with microdosing
In terms of the microdosing trend, Dr. Passie is critical about the productivity factor, he does believe in the creativity factor though
The flow state may also be increased with microdosing
He claims that in his own experience with microdosing, he doesn’t experience the flow state, in fact he experiences a feeling of agitation
Combinations
In a study, when patients took a microdose first, and then a little while later, they took a different full psychedelic dose, the microdose impacted the experience of the full dose
It lessened the effects of the full dose psychedelic
Psychedelics and Sleep
Dr. Passie mentions a study where patients were given LSD, both high and low doses, during sleep
What was found was that LSD impacts REM sleep patterns
The dreams were not altered
The REM phases got longer during the beginning of sleep, and then much shorter near the end of sleep
It shows that the impact of sleeping patterns brings someone to feel much different the next day
The Microdosing Trend
Microdosing has much to be explored yet
But even if microdosing does not produce effects, the trend is a new way to introduce it into our society
“Microdosing might be a new assimilation process of psychedelics into our culture” – Torsten
Instead of the 60’s where we are taking huge doses, we are taking tiny doses as a slow approach to assimilate psychedelics back into society
Torsten is a professor of psychiatry and psychotherapy affiliated with Hannover Medical School, and led the Laboratory for Consciousness and Neurocognition. He has conducted clinical research on psychoactive substances and has written several books including The Pharmacology of LSD (2010) and Healing with Entactogens (2012). Between 2012 and 2015 he was visiting professor at Harvard Medical School.
In this episode, hosts Kyle and Joe sit down with Psychologist, David Luke, Executive Director of Breaking Conventions, a conference on the better understanding of psychedelics. In the episode, they cover research on psychedelics and transpersonal ecopsychology.
3 Key Points:
Transpersonal experiences are super powerful and can be valuable if integrated properly.
Getting access to drugs at affordable prices for research is difficult for the progression of the psychedelic movement. There is a lot of red tape in studying psychedelics.
There is a growing field for mapping altered states of consciousness using science and research.
He is a co-founder of the Breaking Convention Conference
Breaking Convention
August 16-19, 2019 in London England
There are over 180 speakers, a variety of workshops, and more
David will be speaking about Shamanic perspectives and mapping altered states of consciousness
The topic of David’s speech for the conference is Ecodelia: Towards A Transpersonal Ecopsychology Through Psychedelics.
Parapsychology
Parapsychology is a study of phenomena that questions what we think we know about science
David has conducted pre-cognition experiments with ayahuasca, san pedro, mescaline
Research
David says it’s tricky doing this work because there is a serious amount of red tape around psychedelic studies
Getting access to the drugs and to get a lab to make them specifically for research is outrageously expensive
David says that Compass Pathways is making the research side of things easier
He says that he wants the proper research to be done so that it can be available for all those who need it, and for that he supports Compass Pathways, but if they were to pull something like what happened with Esketamine and making an isomer of Ketamine extremely expensive, then he will not support it
Nature and Psychedelics
Psychedelics provide a feeling of connectedness with nature
People prefer to take psychedelics outside, but overall prefer to have amazing, transformative experiences, which in turn makes them more tuned in to nature
Transpersonal Experience
An experience that is genuinely transpersonal can be useful
Typically after a transformational experience, people question their sanity, they have cognitive dissonance, their world view just isn’t suitable enough to contain a normal sense of reality anymore
Its common for a lot of experiences to need a lot of integration afterward
David leads breathwork sessions
He sees people who have taken loads of psychedelics come in with skepticism about Breathwork, and then leave having the most transformative experience they’ve ever have
“There are no limits to the human mind, and there are many ways to get there, and psychedelics are just the more obvious route.” – David
We get further and further away from figuring out psychedelics as a whole the more hyper-specialized we become in our individual fields
The psychedelic space is a really interesting territory
The things that Terrence McKenna would talk about years ago, we are finally starting to explore with science
David is Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Greenwich where he teaches the Psychology of Exceptional Human Experience. He was President of the Parapsychological Association between 2009-2011 and has published more than 100 academic papers on the intersection of transpersonal experiences, anomalous phenomena and altered states of consciousness. He has co-authored/co-edited four books on psychedelics and paranormal experience, directs the Ecology, Cosmos and Consciousness salon at the institute of Ecotechnics, and co-founded Breaking Convention.
Download In this episode, Kyle interviews David Krantz, Certified Epigenetic Coach, and an expert in nutritional genomics. In the show, they talk about the effects of substances via the implications on an individual’s genetics.
3 Key Points:
Epigenetic testing is a bio-hack for boosting cognitive function and harnessing our creativity and ultimate human potential.
There has been a lot of research done on genetics and the effects of THC. The body produces cannabinoids that activate the THC receptors internally, which varies from person to person.
Each person should be seen on an individual level, and the more we know about our unique genetics, the more we can understand about our interactions with different substances.
David works with clients on creating optimal epigenetic expression
He uses people’s genetics as a guide to look at recommendations for diet, herbs, supplements, etc.
He began looking at cannabis for recommendations and found curiosity in psychedelics too
Epigenetics studies the effects of the modification of genetics
It looks at chemical groups attached to the DNA itself and what happens to them over time
Cannabis and Genetics
The most robust area of research on genetics is THC
David said he has seen some research on Psilocybin and just very recently that liver enzymes are responsible for LSD interactions
It looks at the way people are metabolizing these substances
When you ingest something or smoke it, it has a higher impact on the body, edibles are a great example
Kyle brings up the curiosity of edibles impact being either physiological or biological
Genetics show the body’s cannabinoid levels
The body produces cannabinoids that activate the THC receptors internally
There are two enzymes that break down cannabinoids in the body, Anandamide and 2AG
There is a higher likelihood to use cannabis in a person with lower levels of endocannabinoids
This makes some people high-functioning stoners, and others non-functioning stoners
The substance is neutral, it’s all about the body and how it reacts to it
When the liver breaks down an edible, it makes THC more potent
There is speculation that the slow metabolizers have a better chance of passing a drug test because they don’t have a chance to convert 110HTHC to the COOHTHC
Food and Substance Effects
Kyle mentions someone who was drinking grapefruit juice everyday for 3 weeks, and it potentiated the effects of Ketamine
In order to psilocybin to be converted to psilocin, you need a chemical in your body called alkaline phosphatase
Vitamin C deficiency and Vitamin B-6 deficiency all both correlated with alkaline phosphatase deficiency
David brings up his experience going keto, it worked really great for him, his energy levels increased, he lost weight, but his wife had a horrible time with keto
Then he looked to genetics and it made perfect sense to him as to why it worked for him and why it failed for her
Metabolism, biochemistry, genetics, and so many other factors impact a person’s reaction to substances
David also mentions that with companies like 23 and me, they get their money from selling people’s genetic information
He says Apeiron is focused on what you can actually do with the information, not just simply providing the results
David says its super valuable for people to know these things about themselves, how to mitigate stress, how the metabolism works, knowing what to eat, knowing vitamin deficiencies, etc.
Psychedelics in the Future of Epigenetics
David thinks were going to see that the epigenetics of psychedelics are going to show the ability to overcome trauma
When we look at people at an individual level, we all have our own idiosyncrasies and variations
“Because there is no such thing as an average human, let’s stop treating people like average humans and start treating them like they are individual people. Let’s stop leaving out the outliers.” – David
Taking an individualized approach to the psychedelic space is highly beneficial
David Krantz is a certified Epigenetic Coach who specializes in boosting cognitive function and helping clients harness their creative and personal power. As a lifelong musician, David sees the various systems of the body as parts of a complex symphony. And, as a coach, he excels at fine-tuning those parts to create resonant harmonious health. David also serves as Director of Psychoacoustics at Apeiron Center in Asheville, NC where he develops sound-based tools for better mood, energy, and focus. Additionally, he’s an expert in the pharmacogenetics of the endocannabinoid system and has developed a proprietary genetic test for looking at individual response to cannabinoids. A biohacker by training and artist by nature, David enjoys working with others who have a deep passion for enjoying life.
In this episode, Kyle joins in conversation with Dr. Sam Gandy. During the show, they cover topics including the implications psychedelics have for human well-being and the biosphere at large at a time of growing disconnection.
3 Key Points:
There have been a lot of recent threats to our planet and its survival if we continue on our current path of unsustainability. Feeling connected to nature increases the human desire to take care of and heal nature.
There has been an inverse correlation with our connectedness to nature and our connection with technology. Getting out in nature, as well as using psychedelics in nature, both help increase our connectedness to nature.
There has been a rise in cutting edge research that reveals the capacity of psychedelic substances to enhance human-nature connection, which Sam shares snippets of throughout the episode.
Sam has a PhD in Ecological Science from the University of Aberdeen and a Masters in Entomology from Imperial College London
He has a lifelong interest in nature and wildlife and has conducted research in areas all over the world
He is a Scientific Assistant to the Director at the Beckley Foundation
He is a collaborator with the Psychedelic Research Group at the Imperial College of London
Sam’s interest in psychedelics began in London when it was legal to buy mushrooms
He was ‘anti-drug’ until he discovered psychedelics and began to explore consciousness and a love for nature
His background in Ecology (the science of interconnection) has combined with the Psychedelic field
Sam is interested in the capacity of psychedelics to increase human-nature connection and relatedness
Saving Earth
There is a huge threat that our planet won’t survive past this century if we continue on our path of destruction
Remedying our nature disconnect is something really important if we want to survive
This nature disconnection is inversely proportional from our technological connection
We cant live without nature
We have to make room for all the other life going on, not just the life that directly serves humans, like crops and livestock
There is an increasing awareness of the need for nature connection
Sam mentions about humanity’s screen addiction, it raises our cortisol levels and there are many consequences such as psychological and physiological effects
“Contentment is the enemy of invention”
Psychedelics and the internet are growing alongside each other
Timothy Leary would say the internet is the psychedelics of the future in terms of connection
The internet is playing a pivotal role in access to information in this psychedelic renaissance
“Technology is not good or bad, it’s about how its used, the intent behind it” – Sam
Nature Disconnect
Sam thinks that the first step that took us away from nature is when we started farming, we became less hunter-gatherer minded and stepped away from the wild environment
At that point we started living in large groups (creating cities)
Then there was the division of labor and urbanization
Cities and technology are the main reasons for our disconnect with nature
“Long term sustainability would be one of the chief governing principles of how things are ran” – Sam
Psychedelics and Nature
There is something radical about psychedelics, they can convert the skeptics into appreciating nature
The ego dissolution character of psychedelics are a key component in feeling connected to nature
The default mode network (where the ego resides) becomes relaxed and dissolved, and when that happens there is a breakdown of perceived boundaries between self and others/nature
That dissolution of boundaries is a key component in the psychedelic experience
“When you feel part of it, it changes fundamentally how you relate to it” – Sam
One’s knowledge of nature is a very weak predictor of one’s concern for nature
There isn’t research of the use of psychedelics in natural settings yet, Sam hopes that as we research psychedelics more (in clinical settings) the research can evolve into studying their use in nature
With psilocybin, most people have claimed to have a long-term fleeting change in their connectedness to nature, that the feeling of connection doesn’t go away after the trip is over, it lasts for weeks, months, even the rest of their life
Rigid Egos and Nature Disconnection
Psilocybin decreases blood flow to the default mode network
“When we are destroying our own homes (our bodies and nature) are we falling out of love with our self?” – Kyle
When we dissolve the ego, we increase connection, to ourselves, to others and to nature
Future in Psychedelics
We are going to see the rise of Psychedelic Therapy
We are going to see Psychedelic groups and communities on the rise
From those groups, we will see projects and initiatives develop, which could bring decriminalization, integration circles, etc.
Sam believes the rise of depression and anxiety are a cause of our disconnection to nature, and he believes there is a lot of personal healing to be had if we get back into nature and actually play a role in healing nature too
Instead of trying to save the world just for our children and our children’s children, we need to look at this planet as if we were to reincarnate and come back to this planet, so we should want to look after this physical plane to make it better for future installments of ourselves
Get Connected with Nature
The direct, physical sensory experience with nature alone is well known to increase our connectedness with it
Sam suggest listeners to get out in nature and do anything! Boating, gardening, bee keeping, a walk in the woods, whatever
Sam really likes the art of Japanese Forest Bathing, which is about mindfulness and taking in nature, maybe combining it with breathwork exercises, etc.
The more mindful you feel, the more connected to nature you are, and vice versa
Final Thoughts
Nature connection is just a single facet of the psychedelic experience, and Sam hopes for more research on this facet in the future
We have a decent amount of research on psychedelics effect on people with depression, PTSD, etc, but Sam hints toward some future research on the effects of psychedelics on the healthy-normal population
Make time for nature in whatever way works for you
2 hours of nature time a week are profoundly beneficial for health
Dr. Sam Gandy works on the cutting edge of psychedelic research, as Scientific Assistant to the Director of the Beckley Foundation, and as a collaborator with the Psychedelic Research Group at Imperial College London. Sam has a lifelong love of nature and wildlife, and a PhD in ecological science from the University of Aberdeen. He has been fortunate enough to conduct field research in various parts of the world including the UK, Kefalonia, Almeria, Texas, the Peruvian Amazon, Vietnam and Ethiopia. Outside his work in the psychedelic field he has written papers, book chapters, articles and spoken at conferences and festivals on psychedelics and he is fascinated by their potential to benefit human lives.
In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down and chat with Veronica Hernandez and Larry Norris of Decriminalize Nature Oakland. Decriminalize Nature is an educational campaign to inform Oakland residents about the value of entheogenic plants and fungi and propose a resolution to decriminalize our relationship to nature, which just recently had success in doing so.
3 Key Points:
Decriminalize Nature Oakland is a campaign that just recently found success in decriminalizing psilocybin mushrooms as well as other psychedelic compounds naturally derived from plants or fungi, such as ayahuasca, peyote and DMT.
The mission behind Decriminalize Nature is to improve human health and well-being by decriminalizing and expanding access to entheogenic plants and fungi through political and community organizing, education and advocacy.
These decriminalization initiatives are gaining traction across many cities in the US. It’s about connecting to key people in the community and educating them, so they can use their reach to get information about these plants out there, to provide access to people everywhere.
Veronica is a clinical psychologist licensed in Peru
She has been working in the US as a Social Worker Clinician
She has been combining plant medicines and spirituality back into psychology
She is currently finishing her PhD at CIIS
About Larry
He is in the same PhD program as Veronica
Him and Veronica are the team that created ERIE
In between they have taken the time to run Decriminalize Nature Oakland
Decriminalize Nature
In this initiative, they had to convince 8 people of city council to agree to this, in comparison to the Denver Initiative, where they needed thousands of ballot signatures
This bill included naturally occurring psychedelic compounds, not just mushrooms
Larry mentions they used the word entheogen instead of psychedelic, as a way to create new conversation around the plant medicines a reduce the stigma
A Win for Plant Medicine
From where Veronica comes from, Ayahuasca and other plant medicines are national patrimony, state and church can’t touch them
To be able to bring these to a place where it’s considered schedule 1, Veronica is super inspired about being able to make this happen
Right now these plants are in a tug of war between money interest of the tax side and the government, and the other side of corporate interest
The goal now is to educate people on what these plants do, safe practices and develop places and services to hold the space and make these plants available to people
It’s about connecting to key people in the community and educating them, so they can use their reach to get information about these plants out there
Starting city by city is typically easier to initiate, to then have a better hold on direct action and education afterward to be able to duplicate on the state level
They have had 50 different cities from 30 different states reach out to make this happen in their communities
Veronica says that her first time trying San Pedro, she had felt an immediate connection to the plants
It became her goal to combine conventional medicine with plant medicines and make it available to everyone
“To be in touch with something bigger than yourself is one of the most important things” – Veronica
Sustainability
Although there was no verbiage in the bill, they are being mindful about sustainability of the plants when making them more available with decriminalization
Synthesis is a better idea for ibogaine, 5-MEO-DMT and other compounds that are naturally derived but also pose a risk to their sustainability with decriminalization
The landscape just doesn’t allow for synthesis right now, so we start at decriminalization and then hopefully open doors to the route of synthesis to aid in the sustainability of these substances and resources
Larry’s advice is that instead of spending your money and taking a trip to Denver or Oakland, to stay home and organize this is your own community because it can actually happen
It starts now and it starts with education
Joe says the most major push-back received in Denver for the decriminalization was the threat of people driving on mushrooms
Veronica Hernandez, is a clinical psychologist and shamanic practitioner from Peru. Since 2006 she has been trained on shamanic facilitation. She received her clinical training at the Institute of Rational-Emotive Therapy, New York, under the supervision of Dr. Albert Ellis. She was assistant professor at the Universidad Peruana Cayetano Heredia and research assistant at the Hospital Psiquiátrico Noguchi de Lima (Peru). In the United States, she worked as a Social Services Clinician at John Muir Health Hospital’s Inpatient Psychiatric Adolescent Unit, California. Currently she is completing her doctoral degree at California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS), San Francisco, where she is carrying out research on the healing and transformative benefits of entheogens, especially Ayahuasca.
About Larry
Larry Norris, MA, PhD Candidate is the co-founder and executive director of ERIE (Entheogenic Research, Integration, and Education) 501(c)(3), a group dedicated to the development of entheogenic research and integration models. Larry is also a co-founder and on the Board of Decriminalize Nature Oakland and helped to co-author the resolution which received an unanimous decision from Oakland City Council. Beginning his studies in cognitive science as an undergrad at the University of Michigan, he is now a PhD candidate in the East-West Psychology department at the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) in San Francisco. His dissertation reviews archived ayahuasca experiences to identify transformational archetypes that induce insights hidden within the experiences. As adjunct faculty at CIIS, Larry taught a graduate course called Entheogenic Education: Contemporary Perspectives on Ancient Plant Wisdom in order to discuss the concept of entheogens as educational teachers and cognitive tools. He was also an adjunct faculty at John F. Kennedy University teaching a class titled Paradigms of Consciousness. A dedicated activist and proponent of cognitive liberty, Larry’s efforts are a contribution to not only change the Western legal status of these powerful plants, fungus, and compounds, but also to emphasize the potential sacred nature of entheogens given the right set and setting.
In this episode, Kyle talks with Tom Lane, author of Sacred Mushroom Rituals: The Search for the Blood of Quetzalcoatl. In the episode, they discuss the history of Quetzalcoatl, the ceremony of the deified heart and sacred mushroom rituals.
3 Key Points:
Quetzalcoatl is a feathered-serpent deity of ancient Mesoamerican culture that can come to you when partaking in the ceremony of the deified heart. Quetzalcoatl teaches how to overcome fear and hatred and bring love.
The ceremony of the deified heart is a sacred mushroom ritual that when methods are combined correctly, can bring about Quetzalcoatl.
In the episode, Tom tells intriguing stories of his experiences with mushroom rituals and experiencing Quetzalcoatl, including a ceremony with Maria Sabina.
He was not an Aztec, he originated as a King in the Toltec civilization thousands of years before the Aztecs
As legend has it, where his blood fell is where the sacred mushrooms grew
Some people believe he was a Naga, a combination flow of energy, a male/female serpent
A winged, jeweled, male/female, serpent
In the ceremony of the deified heart, the serpent will come to you
About Tom
He was building geodesic domes in a remote area in Mexico
He had some of his first mushroom experiences, and it led him to realize that the story of mushrooms was about Quetzalcoatl
His first experience with the mushroom was mild
He said the mushrooms found him, he takes them as a sacrament
Ceremony of the Deified Heart
The legend was that Quetzalcoatl gave cacao to participants as an aphrodisiac and it would help release serotonin
The goal is not to talk a lot
Then, the mushrooms are to be retrieved from the ground, fresh
Before the ceremony, Tom says he likes to put four candles placed in all four directions
The key to eating the mushrooms is eating them totally covered with honey
You eat them two at a time, as it represents the male and female
And when you eat the mushrooms, you actually never swallow
You chew and chew and the mucous membranes of your tongue take the psilocin straight to the brain and spine
He says once it starts to take effect, it feels like there is a snake up your spine (He mentions his friends call this Kundalini)
Then you go out and Quetzalcoatl will come
When he comes, he is like a rainbow jeweled serpent, an embodiment of pure light, pure energy, pure love
Tom says the next day it feels like you’re 10 years younger
Its a pure force of love, an obliteration of the concept of time
Quetzalcoatl created this ceremony to bring about the serpent for healing, for a balance of male and female
This ceremony is best done during the night, with thunderstorms in the mountains
Ceremony with Maria Sabina
One night they went to see Maria Sabina
She agreed to do a ceremony at night
Her house was in the mountains and had a thatched roof with no windows or doors and sometimes clouds would come through her house
During a ceremony a lightning bolt came though the house, in one window and out the other
Maria’s daughter gave him truffle like mushrooms and he brought them back with him
Maria’s daughter really tried to learn his name, she repeated it a multitude of times until she said it exactly perfectly so she could say it during the ceremony
Quetzalcoatl Messages
God gave us love and pain
We have to learn how to celebrate the pain
God gave us knowledge, and tools of how to heal the pain
Tom’s goal is to teach people how to take the sacred mushrooms to meet Quetzalcoatl and find healing, love and peace
“Once you get rid of the ego, you get rid of fear, and then you have love.” – Tom
The only way you can overcome hatred and fear is with love
The body is teaching the mind when consuming the sacred mushroom
It’s best to just try to love people and be kind, and it’s all acts of kindness and love that makes a person feel good
Tom, Author, has a Bachelors in Forestry from the University of Tennessee and a Masters from the University of Florida in Science Education and Middle School Education. He has worked full time in the Solar Energy field as a Contractor and Trainer and has a background in Mushrooms. Tom spent some time in 1973 living in the jungles of Palenque in Mexico and learn about mushrooms and mushroom ceremony. Tom is the Author of the book, Sacred Mushroom Rituals, The Search for the Blood of Quetzalcoatl.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Alexander Belser, a Clinical Researcher who has done a variety of works in the psychotherapy and psychedelic fields, helping patients heal from depression, OCD, suicide, and other illnesses, all while focusing on gender neutrality and equality. In this episode, they cover topics on privilege, inclusivity and recommendations for the psychedelic space.
3 Key Points:
Privilege is commonly seen in therapist roles and as well in an individual’s access to treatment. It’s important for the psychedelic community to be vocal about privilege and be inclusive of all types of people, all repressed groups.
Psychedelics have the power to help people come to terms with their own sexuality, as well as become accepting of other individuals sexual identification.
In order to see more equality in the psychedelic space, we need to confront structural heterosexism and transfobia, retire the male/female therapy diad, and develop acknowledgement in the psychedelic world of the stresses that LGBTQ people face.
Alexander started attending psychedelic conferences in college
He works at Yale currently, treating individuals with major depressive disorders with psilocybin assisted psychotherapy
He lives in New York and works on a team for the MAPS, MDMA trial for the treatment of PTSD
Queering Psychedelics
Queering Psychedelics is a Conference put on with the help of Chacruna
Its an opportunity for Queer folk to come together and talk about psychedelic medicine
Alexander’s presentation was on Queer Critique for the Psychedelic Mystical Experience
Privilege and Inclusivity
People with more privilege have more power, more access to funding, more access to expanding the research agenda
Many of the people in psychedelic research are privileged, white, cisgender individuals (and Alexander believes they are using the privilege for good)
But it’s important for the psychedelic community to be vocal about privilege and be inclusive of all types of people, all repressed groups
Alexander thinks that we need to eliminate the male/female diad
The typical structure for psychedelic therapy is to have a male cisgender therapist and a female cisgender therapist
But Alexander thinks this is gender essentializing
Its totalizing of gender, assuming that the masculinity is held by the male therapist, and femininity is held by the female therapist
Alexander thinks that the therapists should be more gender neutral
Its essential to assess the individual needs of the client for specific gender pairing
Recommendations
Alexander’s Reccomendations
Confront Structural Heterosexism and Transfobia
Retire the Male/Female Therapy Diad
Acknowledgement in the Psychedelic world of the stress that LGBTQ people face
We need to be able to run moderation analyses to see if a type of psychedelic treatment works the same for sexual minority populations as it does for straight folks
Are there unique clinical considerations for sexual minorities?
The psychedelic Renaissance is maturing and reaching a point where our approaches can be more inclusive
He thinks it’s important for straight folks to think about this too
“We all suffer, including straight folks, in a world where the idea of gender and sexuality is firmly printed as either being A or B. It’s a disservice to our identities.” – Alexander
It is common to feel “oneness” after a psychedelic experience, and it’s common for gender roles to change throughout the process
And on the flip side, maybe our perception of other people’s gender (homophobia) transforms from a psychedelic experience, and we can become more accepting of other forms of gender
Mystical Experience
When people score higher on the mystical experience questionnaire (profound unity, transcendence of time and space) its predictive of their improvements on depression and anxiety
It’s important to be mindful of what value we put on marginalized people’s psychedelic experiences
The most common issue Alexander sees is people feeling ‘stuck’ in these bodies
Psychedelic medicine encourages (at least in appeal) embodiment
Final Thoughts
First, we need to come to terms with our own internalized homophobia, transphobia and racism
Together, we learn from each other, how to dismantle types of patriarchal, homophibic and transphobic structures
MDMA expanded access may probably end up being very expensive, we need to think about privilege and access to mental healthcare broadly
It’s not just about diversity, Alexander encourages people to create allies
He has hope that we can proceed with integrity in these topics
Alexander Belser, Ph.D., is a Clinical Research Fellow and clinical supervisor at Yale University. He is the Co-Investigator of two studies at Yale exploring psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy to treat OCD and depression. His research with sexual minority people has focused on preventing suicide among adolescents and on the protective role of gay-straight alliances for students. Dr. Belser was a founding member of the Psychedelic Research Group at NYU in 2006, and he is currently an Adjunct Faculty member in NYU’s graduate program in Counseling Psychology. He has been a researcher on various psychedelic studies of depression, anxiety, OCD, addiction, trauma, and among religious leaders. He is a study therapist for the MAPS study of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. Dr. Belser serves as a peer reviewer and has published peer-reviewed articles on topics such as psychedelic mysticism, altruism, patient experiences in psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy, cancer and psychedelic therapy, case studies, psilocybin treatment and posttraumatic growth (forthcoming).
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In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Ido Cohen, co-founder of The Integration Circle. In the show, they talk about themes that arise from transformative experiences and the different ways to integrate them through attitude change, environment, and community.
3 Key Points:
A common theme after a transformative experience is the calling for an attitude change. The experience is only the first step, the integration is where the real work begins.
The environment is a critical part of integration. You can’t always change your environment, but you can change your relationship to it by forming new coping mechanisms than the ones used before a transformative experience.
Joining consciousness events, finding a therapist and looking for integration circles are all great way to not feel so ashamed or alone after a transformative experience.
Ido is a Clinical Psychologist based in San Francisco
He works with individuals and couples in integration groups
Ido graduated from the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS)
He did his post-doctoral internship at C.G. Jung Institute in San Francisco
He went to India and it opened up the psycho-spiritual realm for him
He realized there is a lot more to this reality than what we see
He had a powerful Ayahuasca experience, and it led him to choose his dissertation project
He wanted to know how to take his experience and integrate it into his daily life
Integration
Ido began talking to people who had big transformative Ayahuasca experiences (pre, during and after)
He interviewed people at a year out of an Ayahuasca experience, so they had time to reflect
“For most people, something is calling them. Either curiosity or suffering.” – Ido
The message comes through a relationship that we are having with something
People felt that they had to go through something personal before they were able to go into archetypal realms
A theme afterward was a difficulty of re-entry (integration)
Another common theme was people realizing that they need to change their attitude in order to heal
It starts with small steps, maybe instead of watching TV for 2 hours you go for a hike for 2 hours, you open up to make room for change
Ego and Self
Jung’s idea of ego-Self axis; there is the ego that takes things and organizes them and processes things into our reality, and then the self that is the unconscious, the imaginary and dream state
The idea is to look at the relationship between the two
Are they fighting or are they in harmony?
The role of community is so important
“We need to learn to integrate not just the negatives, but also the positives.” – Ido
Having pleasurable experiences can feel unsafe to a person who has been through a lifetime of negatives
Transformative Experiences
Personal and Environmental
Most people have these experiences, and come back to the same urban environment, the same work mindset, the same cultural ideas about “achieving”, the instant coffee mentality
“We want things fast because we don’t want to suffer, we don’t want to wait, we don’t want to invest, we don’t want to change.” – Ido
“When people come back with this new experience but to an old environment, then the question is, ‘How can I not let the pressure of this old environment get in the way of my experience?’” – Ido
It really is all about changing your attitude
Maybe go journaling, go into nature, go dancing, etc.
“How do I honor my process and not succumb to the pressures of using the same coping mechanisms as I had before?” – Ido
Integration is a complex process
Environment
You can’t always change your environment, but you can change your relationship to your environment
You can start looking for integration circles
You can start looking for therapy
You can go to consciousness events, meditation/yoga groups
It really depends on the person but it’s all about finding resources that help you feel more connected, less ashamed, and less alone
One of Ido’s clients said to him “I realize I have to break my own heart if I really want to change”
Spiritual Bypass
Ido suggests a great book on understanding spiritual bypass
Dr. Ido Cohen is a clinical psychologist who got his doctoral from the California Institute of Integral Studies. He practices relational and depth-oriented psychotherapy with individuals and couples in San Francisco. As his Doctoral research, he conducted a 6-year study on the integration process of ayahuasca ceremonies from a Jungian perspective and has been providing preparation and integration services to individuals/couples/ groups in the bay area. He is also the co-founder of The Integration Circle, a community of practitioners who offer integration circles as well as diverse support to those who are preparing or integrating experiences of expanded states of consciousness.
In this episode, Joe interviews Raquel Bennett, Psy.D. at Kriya Institute. In the show, they cover topics surrounding the properties and paradigms of therapeutic Ketamine use.
3 Key Points:
The Kriya Institute is devoted to understanding the therapeutic properties of Ketamine. Raquel Bennett specializes in using Ketamine therapy for patients with severe treatment resistant disorders.
There are three questions that should be used when determining if someone is fit for Ketamine therapy. Is it safe? Is it legal? Is it ethical?
There are many different paradigms for Ketamine Therapy, but determining the best method for each individual patient is the goal.
The Kriya Institute deals with how to work with Ketamine specifically in Psychiatry and Psychotherapy
Kriya provides clinical services to patients, training for other clinicians, and Kriya conference
The conference is a big collaborative meeting
Raquel is trying to create a patient assistance fund to make services more available to people
Ketamine
Ketamine isn’t addictive physically
It is possible to become psychologically addicted to Ketamine
Raquel thinks its a property of the person not of the object
It’s possible to become addicted to anything, shopping, sex, etc.
About Raquel
She first encountered Ketamine in 2002 when she was suffering from severe depression
She was seeing a therapist that took her to a psychedelic shaman where she took Ketamine
From the way she felt after taking Ketamine, she wanted to know if it was replicable for other people
She is interested in people with treatment resistant mood disorders, such as severe depression, unusual bipolar disorder and people living with active suicidal ideation
She remembers her teachers (who gave her Ketamine) saying they don’t use it often, and don’t know if it will work
They were not seeking an antidepressant effect, they were helping her to connect to the cosmos and the universe, to find out why she was having such severe depression
The fact that it acted as a rapid-acting antidepressant was a surprise to them, and that’s what triggered her curiosity with it
“Most of what I know of being a Ketamine provider, I learned from being a patient” – Raquel
Ketamine and Patents
Johnson and Johnson just came out with a filtered Ketamine product that they patented
$850 for 84mg of filtered Ketamine
$1.59 for 100mg of generic Ketamine
They are only providing it as a nasal spray
Companies tried to make a new molecule, but they couldn’t
Instead, they modified it, and filtered it, and then patented it (Esketamine)
Ketamine Treatment Paradigms
There is a lot of disagreement on the route, the dose, the setting importance, etc
This was the reason she created the Kriya conference, to share ideas, to find the best possible methods
One way is to give it as a low dose infusion out of the anesthesiology model (0.5mg of Ketamine per kg of bodyweight in an infusion center)
They aim to get enough ketamine in the patient’s body without the psychedelic effects
They take the normal dose, divide it by 6, and space it out to avoid the psychedelic nature
The patient is being forced into a passive role, they aren’t being called to heal themselves, they are just showing up for the medicine
Raquel says that’s not all that there is to it, the medicine is only half of it
Another paradigm for using Ketamine is facilitated Ketamine Psychotherapy
In this way, the Ketamine is used as a lubricant for talk therapy
We are using Ketamine to help people to talk about material that is too painful or too shameful to get to otherwise” – Raquel
In this paradigm, the emphasis is on the therapy, not the Ketamine, the Ketamine is a lubricant and a tool
In this way, the patient and the therapist are both participating 50%, the patient is not passive
She says the psychedelic effects are to be avoided, or else the patient becomes too far out
The third paradigm would be to induce mystical experience on purpose
As a provider, it is believed that the visions are meaningful
Only about 1 in 6 patients are actually a good candidate for psychedelic dosing
The patient is willing to offer their body up as a vessel, and the messages they receive are from God
The provider’s role is to make sure the journey is safe, and then help the patients to help construct meaning from what they saw, create actionable steps on how to change their lives
Raquel says that all of these paradigms are helpful, different methods work for different patients
That’s her job as a Ketamine Specialist, to determine which method is best for patients
“This is where the direction of the field needs to go, being aware of the spectrum of the services available, and then matching the treatment to the patient. Individualized treatment.” – Raquel
Proper Use
Is it safe? Is it legal? Is it ethical?
Is it appropriate to give Ketamine Treatment to someone without a profound impairment or disorder?
The literature supports the use of Ketamine for the following psychiatric or psychological disorders; major severe refractory depression, bipolar depression, physical pain with depression, recurrent suicidality and obsessive compulsive disorder
Do the potential benefits verify the potential risks?
Raquel doesn’t believe that making this experience available to everyone is the right way, her goal is to demonstrate that Ketamine is safe and useful for refractory problems
Group Administration
They can work with 6 clients at a time
It includes carefully selected individuals that all fit into the group
This provides a much lower cost for patients
Ketamine Types
There are 3 Types of Ketamine
The molecules themselves are not flat, they are 3 dimensional and fold in space
Some molecules are ‘right handed’ and others are ‘left handed’
Right handed molecules are Arketamine and left handed are Esketamine
Generic Ketamine is an even amount of Arketamine and Esketamine molecules
What Johnson and Johnson did with Esketamine was patenting the filtration process of removing Arketamine from the Esketamine molecules
Kriya Institute Site
Kriya Conference in November
A list of providers working with therapeutic Ketamine
Dr. Bennett is a Post-Doctoral Fellow in Clinical Psychology (PSB 94022544), working under the supervision of Dr. Bravo. Dr. Bennett primarily works with people who are experiencing severe depression, who are on the bipolar spectrum, or who are contemplating suicide. She has been studying the therapeutic properties of ketamine since she first encountered it in 2002. In addition to her clinical work, Dr. Bennett’s practice has evolved to include consultation services for medical professionals who wish to add ketamine services to their offices. She also lectures frequently about therapeutic ketamine. Dr. Bennett is the Founder of KRIYA Institute and the Organizer of the KRIYA Conferences.
Download In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview Ben Eddy, a Black Belt from Eddy Bravo’s 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu system. In this episode, they cover a range of topics on Jiu Jitsu, Psychedelics and flow state.
3 Key Points:
Before Jiu Jitsu, Ben says he was very analytical, thinking of the most efficient, fastest way to complete anything. Jiu Jitsu is an ‘in the moment’ type of game, and it allowed him to tap into a flow state.
Psychedelics have the ability to imprint you and change your thought patterns, and when combined with a sport like Jiu Jitsu, you’re able to achieve a type of embodiment you wouldn’t have before.
We do not need to rush into psychedelics at a young age. It is important to experience life for what it is first, and to feel that fully to have a comparison to after diving into the psychedelic realm.
Ben got into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu when looking for a way to get in shape
He was in San Francisco in the tech scene
He was into wrestling in his past and competition and he found that Jiu Jitsu was similar
His main instructor, Eddie Bravo, was training for a match
He wanted to be around the energy of this event
He moved down to southern California and that is where his psychedelic use began
Ben knew that when he was going to do psychedelics, there was going to be a before and after, that there were going to be doors that were going to be opened
He says he took the time to really understand the sober life before psychedelics, in order to know the difference
Ben describes it as a cool opportunity to wait to use psychedelics, he had the choice to wait and experience life and figure out what life is before psychedelics
Joe says for the younger listeners “meditate on that”, figure out life first before diving into psychedelics
Strategy vs Flow
Before Jiu Jitsu, Ben says he was very analytical, thinking of the most efficient, fastest way to complete anything
Jiu Jitsu is an ‘in the moment’ game, where there is more of a ‘flow state’
He was running into people that could just ‘find answers in the moment’, there was no plan or no strategy, it was a natural flow
Psychedelics and Training
Training with an active dose was hard to get to at the start
Ben trains now with active doses
It has the ability to imprint you and change your thought patterns
Ben’s active dose is 2 grams of mushrooms during a practice
Ben does mention that all people are different and his active dose is different than anyone else’s
Jiu Jitsu makes you bring everything that you have up to the forefront in that moment
Feeling is a way of knowing, especially in these flow states
He says that weed is commonly used in Jiu Jitsu, but he hasn’t seen a whole lot of Psychedelic use yet
Ben says that weed helps you drop into the one instrument that you’re trying to play, get into that flow state
Jiu Jitsu is a sport of form, technique, and dance, it’s not about strength
Origins
Jiu Jitsu came from Japan and their Judo
Then it came to Brazil and mixed with the beach vibes and turned into Jiu Jitsu
Then it came to the west and our beaches and developed into what it is today
Kyle mentions the idea of using Paul Stamets ‘microdosing’, psilocybin, lions mane and niacin
In that state we are creating new neurogenesis and neural pathways and being in that state may make us learn differently
Kyle says its an interesting application for performance and new ways of learning
Ben says the goal is to get to a certain level of embodiment, at every point you’re trying to be present in the here and now
Music
After Jiu Jitsu, music took on a whole new color, feel and wave for Ben than it did before
He thought music was a distraction
Once he started to play with flow more, he began to open up to music to live in it
Jiu Jitsu and the flow state really start with the breath
Its like breathing in and accepting life, and the exhale is where it all lets go
Ben Eddy is a Blackbelt at 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu system. Starting off in the tech scene in San Fransisco, Ben relocated to southern California, where he began his journey into Jiu Jitsu, psychedelics and tapping into the flow state. He currently travels and competes.
In this episode, hosts Joe and Kyle interview Hamilton Souther, Shaman of Blue Morpho. In this episode, they cover Hamilton’s incredible journey from Western life into becoming a Shaman and the spirit teachings that he experienced along the way.
3 Key Points:
Hamilton Souther, a Shaman of Blue Morpho, shares his experience from living a normal Western life to his journey of his calling, learning and training to become a Shaman. He shares amazing examples of connectedness and spirit while living amongst the natives.
A common concept that comes out of an Ayahuasca ceremony is that the plants care for you. The teachings that come from the plants are peace oriented and resolution oriented and opening of creativity and problem solving.
Shamanic training is a long and extremely difficult journey. Training comes to the people that feel the deepest calling, because you have to commit your whole life to it.
He had some near death experiences and accidents when he was younger
The year after he graduated from college he would go into spontaneous awakenings and altered states of consciousness while totally sober
He would have really intense visionary experiences in those states
Those experiences were so powerful which led him into training and into his Ayahuasca experiences
He felt without purpose and gave himself up to something greater
He turned to shamanism to try to explain the nature of those experiences
Spontaneous Awakening
Kyle mentions that this can happen, that substances are not always required for an ‘awakening’
Hamilton says he wanted to connect to something other than himself
The path took him to Peru, and there was a possibility of meeting people with Ayahuasca
He was being called to it and knew they were real and it led to his ‘apprenticeship’ as a Shaman
It wasn’t by accident that he was there, he had visions that he was supposed to stay there and to learn
Discernment
Coming from a scientific background, he demanded (from the spirit guide) that the process be practical and grounded in reason and logic
He used doubt in a way that he was able to use a lot of proof and truth toward his belief system rather than just being naive and believing these messages too early
He couldn’t envision how to evolve from the vomiting, defecating human on the ground to the composed shaman in the room
Even though he spoke the language, he couldn’t understand what the people were saying when they shared their stories
It seemed like a different world to him
The first few years were learning how to survive in the jungle and learn how to live off of the food
He says it was like reliving his childhood, he had no idea how to walk through the forest like he knew how to walk down a street growing up
The first house he lived in out of college was one he built himself with locals
These experiences were so far from what he grew up in
Toward the end of his apprenticeship, ceremony started to look less impossible and more of something he would dedicate his life to
Spirit
In the indigenous communities, everybody sees spirits, especially at night
And not just in the Ayahuasca culture, its everybody. They thought the jungle was literally alive with spirits
They would say things like “call me if you need me” and they meant it telepathically
Hamilton says “sure enough, they do answer when you call”.
He was in Southern Peru at a pizzeria, and they were in ceremony, and they started to call to him
He had to excuse himself from the table and go outside and sit with himself and went into an Ayahuasca vision and the two men in ceremony said to him in the vision “we just wanted to call to say hi”
So Hamilton, using his doubt, wrote down the place and the time of when this happened, and when he returned from his travels and got back to the community, the two men gave him the coordinates and time where Hamilton was when they called him. It matched perfectly
He realized then and there that they had a very different understanding of the forest and of space time and they were tapped into another kind of knowledge and wisdom
That’s what he was looking for when he came down to the Amazon in the first place
“The mysteries of consciousness are really unexplored and are not studied by science at all” – Hamilton
For Westerners, reality and how it is experienced is just a tiny slice of total consciousness
“When you’re in the amazon, and you’re living in the forest and you’re participating in these visionary experiences, you see the interconnectedness of life.” – Hamilton
“Globally we’ve all agreed that education, literacy and participating in the economy is worth it. I think it’s worth it to really address on a massive scale what were facing collectively. It’s a part of our natural evolution.” – Hamilton
The plants have a very specific role to play, and that they care
That’s a common concept that comes out of an Ayahuasca ceremony, that the plants care for you
The teachings that come from the plants are peace oriented and resolution oriented and opening of creativity and problem solving
Especially with the environmental crisis, people who turn to Ayahuasca start to care for the environment
Psychedelic plants have a huge role to play in global life, individual growth and collective change
Blue Morpho
Its a center that Hamilton and the shamans that he works with created
They did a ceremony to talk with the plants to make sure that this was okay to use as an offering to everyone
It started in 2003 and evolved over the years to practice traditional ceremony and now San Pedro
People come from all over the world to visit them
The majority of the people are really coming for the right reasons, with clear intentions for transformation, growth, exploration and personal healing
Over 17 years they have focused on bettering services and professionalism and they believe they have truly succeeded
Ayahuasca is just one aspect of Amazonian plant medicine
There are hundred of plants with medicinal healing properties
The Dieta is a period of time where you go into deep individual isolation and connection to a specific medicinal plant where you create a relationship with a plant
Then you go into the Ayahuasca ceremony and Icaros are sung and you drink the Ayahuasca
Then the Dieta is a time where there are restrictions such as abstinence, no alcohol, strict food diet, no medications, etc. and you go into a meditative state for healing for a time of a few days, to weeks to even months
Shaman Training
Training comes to the people that feel the deepest calling, because you have to commit your whole life to it
Then, you find a lineage of shamans that are willing to accept you (if you aren’t born into a lineage of shamans)
It’s a journey, and you have to find a group of people open for training
It’s different from any kind of training from the western world, it’s a tremendous journey, and it could take years to decades
Its meant to be a test, and incredibly difficult
When Hamilton trained, he was told that 1 out of 100 make it to be actual shamans
It’s really a job of service, not an exalted one
The reason the training is so incredibly difficult, is so that you can sit with people, who are going through extremely difficult, and transformational experiences and you can be there for them and love and support them unconditionally with the strength gained through the training process
“Its a role of service, you have to be able to deal with any form of suffering that people come to you with.” – Hamilton
Final Thoughts
Stay open minded
He warns about a dystopian world
We need to be the change makers, and there is a lot we can do
We are incredibly powerful, especially when we are united in common goals
Whether they are about human rights or the climate
Hamilton focuses his work on Universal Spiritual Philosophy. He is bilingual in English and Spanish, has a Bachelors degree in Anthropology, and has studied shamanism in California, Cusco, and the Amazon. Hamilton was given the title of Master Shaman by Alberto Torres Davila and Julio Llerena Pinedo after completing an apprenticeship under Alberto and Julio. He guides ceremonies and leads shamanic workshops, in which he shares Universal Spiritual Philosophy.
In this episode, Joe records with Sean McAllister, an attorney who helped advise Decriminalize Denver. During this special, extra episode, Sean helps us understand the language in the recent bill for Mushroom Decriminalization in Denver, CO.
3 Key Points:
Recently, Psilocybin Mushroom Decriminalization passed on the ballot in Denver, CO.
Psilocybin mushrooms have not been made legal, they have simply been decriminalized. This means that Denver has the lowest law enforcement priority around psilocybin and that no money can be used to criminalize this behavior.
Decriminalization of Psilocybin in Denver is a big step toward changing the stigma around psychedelics. But we need to be careful, decriminalization is just a tiny step in the right direction and we need to be respectful and responsible with this initiative.
On May 8th, the city of Denver, Colorado voted yes on I-301, which decriminalizes the possession and use of Psilocybin-containing mushrooms. The official results will be certified on May 16th. As of May 9th – the unofficial results are – yes (50.6%) and no (49.4%).
I-301 decriminalizes adult (21 years or older) possession and use of Psilocybin mushrooms – making these offenses the lowest priority for law enforcement. This initiative also prohibits law enforcement to spend money and resources enforcing arresting adults with possession of mushrooms.
Sean’s Role in the Mushroom Decriminalization in Denver, CO
Sean is an Attorney with McAllister Garfield Law Firm in Denver
He has done a lot with cannabis law since 2005
He heard about the Mushroom Decriminalization campaign and began working with them
His role started in January to help the team understand what it would look like if the bill passed and his role definitely continues going forward now that it has passed
What the Vote Means
“Decriminalize” means just that
Psilocybin mushrooms have not been made legal, they have simply been decriminalized
“You should never be arrested for putting something in your body that grows naturally in nature.” – Sean
This means that Denver has the lowest law enforcement priority around Psilocybin
It’s not legal, it’s not regulated
This bill means that a person cannot be imprisoned for possession and cultivation for personal possession amounts
The city is not supposed to spend any money to criminalize this behavior
You can grow them to eat them yourself, but you can’t grow them to sell them
This also doesn’t mean that groups can host events and ‘give out’ mushrooms as a gift in return for a donation, this is not good behavior for this initiative
This initiative is simply a first step at looking at mushrooms in a better light and reducing the stigma
For the benefit of this bill passing, we have to be careful about amounts, the smaller the amount of mushrooms the better
There isn’t an amount listed in the bill to distinguish between personal use and intent to sell
The city has to establish a review commission
What this commission is supposed to do is track the public safety impact, use, criminal justice impact, etc
We hope and guess that psilocybin will not impact any of these, just like how marijuana did not impact anything for the worse when it was decriminalized
Once the city sees the results, they won’t have so much stigma about it, and Denver will lead the way for the state and the rest of the nation for sensible drug policy
Political Pushback
The typical response was “we already legalized marijuana, let’s not jump to something else”
Sean thinks this gives Denver an amazing reputation, that it understands therapeutic ability and research and no tolerance for the drug war
“We need a system that addresses public safety concerns but maintains as much personal liberty as possible on these topics” – Sean
Other Initiatives
Sean is a part of Chacruna, based in San Francisco
Oakland is attempting to Decriminalize Nature, which by nature means all naturally occurring substances
They aren’t on a ballot, they are looking to convince city council to agree with it and accept it
California attempted to raise signatures to be on the ballot in the 2018 election but it failed to get on the ballot
Oregon is now collecting signatures to get on the ballot at the state level in 2020
Oregon’s model is for medicalization, Sean expresses concern for a purely medical model
Between big pharma and quiet equity firms, they want to monetize on psychedelics like they did with marijuana, and that’s what we risk with medicalization
Psychedelic Liberty Summit in 2020 in the Bay Area will be to talk about the rights and wrongs around psychedelic initiatives
Final Thoughts
Sean mentions a possible system that revolves around a licensing structure
Similar to how we get a drivers license; we practice, we take tests, etc.
For psychedelics, we would need to learn the effects, harm reduction techniques, take tests to verify our knowledge, etc and receive a license that allows us to use psychedelics freely
If we abuse psychedelics and use them improperly, then we would get our license taken away, suspended, etc.
Overall, after this initiative passing, we have to be careful we don’t ruin this victory with poor behavior
Let’s just do what we’re doing respectfully, responsibly, and to ourselves
Sean T. McAllister is one of the nation’s leading cannabis business attorneys, licensed to practice law in both Colorado and California. Sean’s legal work focuses on the complex interplay between corporate law and state cannabis regulatory structures and federal law. Sean is a recognized leader in the cannabis industry. In 2004, he founded Sensible Colorado, which worked on all of the ballot initiatives in Colorado that culminated in recreational cannabis legalization in 2012.
A single inhalation of vapor from dried toad secretion containing 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) in a naturalistic setting is related to sustained enhancement of satisfaction with life, mindfulness-related capacities, and a decrement of psychopathological symptoms
The recent publication summarizing the effects of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) on mental health-related variables authored by myself and my colleagues has received great attention both from the scientific community and the public, see full text here; https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-019-05236-w
Although my colleagues and I are very pleased that the publication has been so well received, it appears that the study findings are being misinterpreted and misrepresented on (social)media primarily in the general public as an advocacy for use of toad secretion.
Not only is this very disappointing, as the publication is in fact communicating the very opposite, but it is also of great concern to me as the misrepresentation of the study findings may contribute to further unnecessary consumption toad secretion from Bufo Alvarius.
I, therefore, feel it is not only necessary, but also of high importance to clarify that the recent publication is in no way an advocacy or toad secretion use, but rather the opposite.
In fact, the article is summarizing the effects of 5-MeO-DMT, which is the main compound in the toad secretion – as demonstrated by a lab-analysis. This finding makes a clear and strong argument that toad secretion is in no way superior to synthetic 5-MeO-DMT, putting a scientific nail in the coffin for the discontinuation of toad secretion use as a means of obtaining and consuming 5-MeO-DMT.
Furthermore, the article also points to the ethical and ecological implications that comes with toad secretion use. Basically, the increasing demand for the vapor produced by toad secretion will disturb the ecological equilibrium of the toads through the invasion of habitat, excessive milking, amphibian trafficking, and black-market dynamics. Harassment of the Bufo Alvarius toad, however, can be easily prevented by using synthetic 5-MeO-DMT instead of vapor from dried toad secretion containing 5-MeO-DMT. You can read a summary of this issue to greater length here: https://psychedelicstoday.com/2018/10/03/ethics-ecology-bufotoxins/ ).
Additionally, even though many people have benefitted from sessions whereby 5-MeO-DMT from toad secretion has been consumed, others have instead, based on anecdotal reports, had a rather unpleasant encounter with the facilitator and so too experience with 5-MeO-DMT from toad secretion. The reasons for the unpleasant encounter vary per person, but as our recent publication highlight it is clear that some of the recent allegations of malpractice against two facilitators in particular, namely Octavio Rettig and Gerry Sandoval addressed in an open letter (read full text here; https://5-meo-dmt-malpractice.org/), extends beyond these individuals. In our recent publication it was demonstrated that the set and setting vary quite a bit from location to location of these sessions, dose(s) are not standardized but determined by eye-measuring, and span between 30-120 mg of toad secretion (those who received 30 mg dose may have had 7.5-9 mg of 5-MeO-DMT, whereas those who received 120 mg dose may have inhaled up to 30-36 mg of 5-MeO-DMT). Additionally, none of the facilitators have the necessary expertise (clinical background) to properly hold a safe space where altered states of consciousness can be entered, nor to screen for contraindications in participants that are included in a session. This is not only concerning, but also dangerous as it puts people in an unnecessary risk for having an unpleasant, and even traumatic experience which can impact them as well as those around them negatively.
Finally, although the study suggests that inhalation of vapor from toad secretion containing mainly 5-MeO-DMT (with very low traces of bufotenine and DMT) is related to sustained enhancement of satisfaction with life, mindfulness-related capacities, and a decrement of psychopathological symptoms, these findings are in no way conclusive. This molecule still needs further extensive research to assess safety, and to control for various other variables that may account and/or add to the outcome effects such for example set and setting, social desirability bias, therapeutic relationship, and placebo response.
About the Author
Malin Vedøy Uthaug, MSc, originally from Bergen, moved to Prague, The Czech Republic, after graduating from high school in her hometown in 2012. After obtaining her dual bachelor’s degree in Psychology from the University of New York in Prague (UNYP) and Empire State College (ESC) in New York in June 2016, Malin continued with her studies at Maastricht University, The Netherlands. Here, she acquired her master’s degree in Psychology with a specialization in Health and Social Psychology in the fall of 2017. During her research internship, Malin conducted fieldwork investigating the sub-acute and long-term effects of Ayahuasca on affect and cognitive thinking style. This field study was under supervision of Dr. Johannes Ramaekers and Dr. Jordi Riba, and was the starting point of her career as a psychedelic researcher.
After finishing her master’s, Malin continued working as a PhD candidate at the department of Neuropsychology and Psychopharmacology (FPN) from fall 2017. Her current doctoral research centers around the continuous investigation of the effects of Ayahuasca in naturalistic settings, and pioneer work on the effects of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) in humans.
Outside of her thesis work, besides being a co-founder of the Norwegian Association for Psychedelic Studies, and a member of the editorial board of the Journal of Psychedelic Studies, Malin is also investigating the effects of Mescaline and Holotropic Breathwork. Finally, she is interested in trauma(resolution) and works hard to aid in changing the current treatment modalities available in the west by demonstrating the superiority of Non-ordinary state Psychotherapy (NOSP) through extensive research, (academic) writing and public speaking.
With the resurgence of psychedelics and the important research into the many therapeutic benefits – from Ketamine for treatment-resistant depression, to MDMA for PTSD, and Ibogaine for addiction recovery, and much more, the myriad lineages of traditional ceremonial and healing ways, as well as the flourishing of radical creativity with entheogenic use, the festival communities, we are all in a time of transformation and potential change for the healing and upliftment of each other and our planet.
These times, and working in these sacred and subtle, sensitive realms require ethics that far surpasses the standards that dictate dominant paradigm interactions. Holding space in a sacred way means attunement, humility, honoring, and most of all, putting aside what you think you know about what’s happening, in service to the one in spontaneous or entheogenically-induced Spiritual Emergence (SE).
The states of heightened sensitivity, openness to multidimensional realms, and to others’ energies requires extra responsibility – the ability to be responsive – on the part of the one who was holding space, witnessing, and guiding. The ones who are in the role of holding vigil must be as attuned as the survivors of trauma and spiritual emergency themselves have had to be.
Those of us who have lived experience of both spontaneous and entheogenically-induced non or extra-ordinary states may be activated and opened into psychic gifts – beholden to the underlying layers of realities and agendas – and when we share our visions and insights, the trauma of both being gaslit and pathologized are damaging in compounding denial of our truth!
In this time of the great revealing, what is hidden is coming to the surface to be seen, held, metabolized, transmuted, and the ethical requirement is that we all make contact with radical openness, radical compassion, and radical humility, contacting the reality that each of us is a bearer of truth, of wisdom, and thus we all deserve to be recognized as embodied divinity and treated with respect and care!
I was traumatized in two different medicine communities, due to lack of attunement, gaslighting, and negligence on behalf of the facilitators, guides, and space-holders. My spiritual emergency and subsequent hospitalizations are directly related to the openings of these intense and deep transformational processes- access to my deepest grief and fear, which had they been held properly, ethically, and responsibly, could have been some of the most healing and corrective experiences of my life, but instead they were some of the most re-traumatizing and isolating.
These spaces, ceremonies, ways are meant to induce opening, initiation, recalibration, and transmutation. When held out of alignment, they become potentially violating, dangerous, and re-wounding, especially for those who have had a history of trauma. As the research shows, entheogenic therapies are potentially very effective in recovery and healing in the right conditions.
What are ethically-held entheogenic containers, therapies, and ceremonies? I can tell you it is NOT forced touch, pushing farther, harder, deeper, or more. It IS attunement, respect, consent, and letting go of agendas. Allowing the Sacred Process to unfold, being guided by Spirit, and the Inner Healer. That is to say, the Inner Healer of the client, and following the needs, and being responsive and responsible to the client. And the necessity for each and every psychedelic therapist and guide to be trained in Spiritual Emergence Support and integration, resources, and acknowledging that the opening into SE through entheogenic use as well as spontaneously, is a deeply transformative process that deserves the utmost care, holding, and respect, as it is inherently an Awakening process, and why we are here in this Time-
To heal together, to return to Wholeness, and to support the activation of our gifts and capacities to be of service to one another and the Planet.
(I delivered this transmission at Will Hall’s Event on 5/4/19 at Oakland Omni Commons)
Featured Image: “Etheric Motherboard of the New Paradigm” by David Wyatt
About the Author
MichelleAnne Hobart, MA, SEC, AMFT is a teacher, writer, energy worker, and Associate Marriage and Family Therapist at Holos Institute. She trained as a Spiritual Emergence Coach with Emma Bragdon and collaborates with the Gnosis Retreat Center project. Her love for the Earth and education was exemplified in her past as a high school Biology and Health teacher working in the Baltimore parochial school system after receiving her BS in Biology from University of Maryland Baltimore County. Deeply longing to immerse herself in the subtle realms, she was drawn to the Bay Area to continue her studies. With her MA in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness from California Institute of Integral Studies, she continued her own personal journey of healing, and then sharing that path with others through her wellness center and intuitive collective. She has been in states of Spiritual Emergence throughout her life to varying degrees, and entered a state of Spiritual Emergency in 2013.. She completed and released her first book, Becoming Sacred Space in 2016. Then, in 2018, Michelle graduated from the Integral Counseling Psychology program at CIIS, and is currently finishing her second book, about Spiritual Emergence.
In this episode, Joe talks with Shane LeMaster, Licensed Addiction Counselor and Certified Mental Performance Consultant. Shane is also involved in Psychotherapy as well as Sport and Performance Psychology and Psychedelic Integration Therapy. In this episode they cover a range of topics such as social work, Ketamine, sensory deprivation, psychedelic icons and the psychedelic culture.
3 Key Points:
Shane has a podcast of his own, and his goal with the podcast is to bring people’s personal experiences to light to learn from them, to master the potential of our minds.
Ketamine is a great gateway to opening up people’s minds to all of the other psychedelics. Its also a great place to start for therapy.
Every single facilitator or shaman has different techniques and styles and that’s okay
If we don’t have differences then we won’t have styles to choose from.
Joe and Shane met up recently at a Psychedelic Club meeting about harm reduction in Fort Collins
Shane just got accepted into the PhD program in social work at CSU
He had been pursuing a PhD program in psychology and it wasn’t working out for him so he decided to take the social work route
He works with many people and has developed a strong skill set on the micro level and he wants to start making impact on a macro level with helping people
Social Work
Shane thinks of social work as an integrative approach for every discipline that we find useful, to come to a holistic, greater understanding of an issue
Shane wants to use Ketamine as a ‘medium’ term goal, because it’s legal
But ketamine is not where he is going to stop, he finds there are benefits in many other substances
He would love to work with LSD and Psilocybin
He will continue to offer his services through his business Mind Ops
Shane’s Podcast – Conversations with the Mind
His goal with the podcast is to bring people’s personal experiences to light to learn from them
It’s important to create dialogue and invite people for conversation with differing opinions
The goal is to create a theory that implements both opinions
Ketamine
Ketamine is a great gateway to opening up people’s minds to all of the other psychedelics
Shane has had a lot of personal and recreational experiences on Ketamine and when he returns to it as a medicine, he is able to attain and sharpen skills for mindfulness
Joe brings up the idea that recreational ketamine could have the ability to bring up past trauma or may re-traumatize someone if not used therapeutically
Ketamine has a lot of risks, but being educated and using the substance correctly can be absolutely beneficial
Shane says we shouldn’t try to avoid trauma, we should accept it and use it for good and let it power us
“Sometimes we don’t even know what were suppressing. We need some assistance to show us what were avoiding in life and I think that psychedelics help with that a lot.” – Shane
Sensory Deprivation
Shane says he’s interested in John Lilly’s work from back in the day and his terminology of being able to meta-program your human brain
Joe says John Lilly was a big part of isolation chambers which led to float tanks
Psychedelic Icons
Joe mentions Robert Anton Wilson, he was good friends with Timothy Leary
“My interest is not in psychedelics themselves, but psychedelics as a means to access higher states of who we are, parts we have forgotten.” – Shane
Psychedelics are just one way to tap into ourselves and discover our ultimate potential
“We should all be questioning, everyday, changing our belief systems” – Shane
“Belief is the death of intelligence” – Robert Anton Wilson
Shane says a lot of people give Leary a bad rap, but Shane appreciates what he has done
Joe mentions ‘smile squared’ – Space, migration, intelligence and life extension
TFYQA – Think for yourself question authority
“Turn on, Tune in, Drop out” – Timothy Leary
Shane says that phrase sticks with him, it called to his rebel phase in youth to grow and do this work in his life
The Psychedelic Culture
Splitting – a rephrase of divide and conquer
Joe says the psychedelic world is very cut throat
“We should take care of each other a bit more in this space” – Joe
Shane says, we need to lift each other up versus look for ways to step over each other
Every single facilitator or shaman has different techniques and styles and that’s okay
If we don’t have differences then we don’t have styles to choose from
“We can’t become fundamentalists in our own practices, we need to value the differences culturally and from a world view. They are all valuable.” – Shane
Shane earned his Bachelor of Arts Degree in Psychology from the University of Colorado in Boulder, CO, completed extensive coursework towards a Master of Arts Degree in Sport & Performance Psychology at the University of Denver, and earned his Master of Arts Degree in Sport & Exercise Psychology from Argosy University.
Shane is nationally certified as a Sport Psychology Consultant and a licensed mental health clinician in the state of Colorado. Having worked in community non-profit mental health since 2008, Shane has gained experience working with the entire spectrum of mental disorders and with all populations and age groups. Shane plans on attending a Ph.D program in Counseling Psychology where his interest in Resiliency, Mental Toughness, and Mindfulness Training Program Development can be explored and further developed.
He is a life-long athlete having competed at various levels in more than a dozen different sports. Because of his passion for warrior cultures of past and present, Shane has been ardently developing his own “Warriorship,” training in various forms of Martial Arts for 25 years. Shane feels that the self-discipline, the philosophy of non-violence, the innumerable mental and physical benefits, and the enjoyment that he gains from the Martial Arts is what helped drive his passion in the field of Psychology.
His personal interest in Eastern Philosophy stems from his adoption of a Buddhist lifestyle and blends well with his training in Western Psychological Science. Clients describe Shane as an out-of-the-box clinician that is easy to get along with, knowledgeable on a variety of topics, credible with lived experience, and as having the ability to make therapy fun and interesting.
On May 8th, the city of Denver, Colorado voted yes on I-301, which decriminalizes the possession and use of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. The official results will be certified on May 16th. As of May 9th – the unofficial results are – yes (50.6%) and no (49.4%).
I-301 decriminalizes adult (21 years or older) possession and use of Psilocybin mushrooms – making these offenses the lowest priority for law enforcement. This initiative also prohibits law enforcement to spend money and resources enforcing arresting adults with possession of mushrooms.
Joe Moore recorded with Sean McCallister who is an attorney who helped advise Decriminalize Denver. If you want to learn about what decriminalization in Denver is really all about – tune in here. Expect to hear more from Sean in the future.
Sean T. McAllister is one of the nation’s leading cannabis business attorneys, licensed to practice law in both Colorado and California. Sean’s legal work focuses on the complex interplay between corporate law and state cannabis regulatory structures and federal law. Sean is a recognized leader in the cannabis industry. In 2004, he founded Sensible Colorado, which worked on all of the ballot initiatives in Colorado that culminated in recreational cannabis legalization in 2012.
In this episode, Kyle hosts a conversation with Veronika Gold from the Polaris Insight Center, a center that offers Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy. They compare and contrast Ketamine Psychotherapy methods and Ketamine Infusion.
3 Key Points:
The most studied way of using Ketamine has been infusion, mainly used for treatment resistant depression and PTSD. Veronika used lozenges and intramuscular Ketamine therapy working for Polaris.
When people are healed from depression, there is a lot of anxiety and activation that happens. Infusion clinics don’t offer the therapeutic help that comes with Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy.
The dissociation that happens with Ketamine is a different dissociation that happens with trauma. With trauma, dissociation happens when the nervous system can’t handle the stress in someone’s life, with Ketamine, it allows people who feel dissociated from their trauma, to feel again.
She is involved in the clinical trials for the treatment of PTSD, sponsored by MAPS in San Francisco
Veronika is originally from Czech Republic
She studied at CIIS
She grew up in the Czech Republic in a communist time so she dealt with a lot of trauma
She met Stan Grof at 16 at a Transpersonal conference
She was fascinated with his work and Transpersonal Breathwork became a part of her healing
It lead her to study psychology and become a psychotherapist and study non-ordinary states
Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy
Ketamine therapy has been studied from the late 60’s until today
The most studied way of using Ketamine has been infusion, mainly used for treatment resistant depression and PTSD
In Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy, the therapy is as important as the medicine
There is a biochemical effect of Ketamine
When people are healed from depression, there is a lot of anxiety and activation that happens
Infusion clinics don’t offer the therapeutic help that comes with Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy
Benefits of Ketamine Psychotherapy
The treatment method used at Polaris includes a comfortable room, eye shades, music tailored to the therapy, and an ongoing therapist
They use non-ordinary states of consciousness as a part of the transformation
They use lozenges and IM (Intramuscular)
Only 30% of the ketamine from the lozenges are effective
The lozenges allow for a slow onset of the medicine
With IM, a higher dose can be used because it’s less taxing on the body and more effective
The property of Ketamine is dissociation
Veronika says she prompts people to explain where they are, to share about what comes up for them
“Sometimes there are memories that come up that are connected to their struggle. Sometimes they do full trauma processing. There are times where they go inside and then come out.” – Veronika
Ketamine vs. Classic Psychedelics
They used Ketamine as a means to do the work legally
For the work that is being done underground, the therapists are putting themselves at risk for legality, and it does impact set and setting
But even if other substances were legal, Veronika thinks Ketamine will still be used for certain issues
A moderate to high dose can allow people to have a near death experience or ‘review of their life’
The dissociation that happens with Ketamine is a different dissociation that happens with trauma
With trauma, dissociation happens when the nervous system can’t handle the stress
Opposingly, with Ketamine, it allows people who feel dissociated, to feel again
Veronika mentions a study that says the higher the effects of dissociation from a Ketamine session, the higher the antidepressant effects are.
She has work in somatic studies and organic intelligence
Breathwork
Veronika’s experience with Breathwork helps her understand her patients
The bodily experience that happens in Breathwork also helps her understand the body movement/energetic blockages, etc that happen in Ketamine therapy
The last 30-90 minutes is where the integration starts
Sessions
They do mainly one-on-one session but have done a few pair therapy sessions
Veronika says its easier to do one-on-one because the sessions are short and there is a lot of internal work
The Future of Ketamine
Veronika is excited about people’s curiosity with Ketamine therapy and the effectivity of it
Ketamine is a new and emerging field and we are figuring out who it is useful for and who it is not
Veronika says that non-ordinary states are all beneficial for healing, and not having to use Ketamine (using Breathwork) is still beneficial
“A big part of the healing is having a positive experience and connecting with places that feel good, having positive visions. Its supportive for our nervous system and our ability to heal.” – Veronika
“When we allow the inner healing intelligence to come through, it will take us to where we need to go.” – Veronika
Patients don’t always need to just feel the dark stuff and the trauma, sometimes sitting with the good feelings and remembering what good feels like is a part of the healing too
Kyle and Veronika were both on separate episodes of the Consciousness Podcast with Stuart Preston
Veronika has expertise in the treatment of trauma. Her approach is integrative and informed by Somatic Therapies, contemplative practices, and mindfulness. She also has an interest in educating others about the healing and transformational potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness.
In this episode, Joe talks with Matthew Remski, yoga teacher, consultant and author. In the show they talk about high demand group life and their cultic mechanisms, and the after effects of living in a high demand group setting.
3 Key Points:
Matthew Remski shares his experience of spending most of his 20’s in cults, and his healing journey afterward.
Cults aren’t defined by their content (political, religious, psychedelic), they are defined by their element of control. Another term for a ‘cult’ is a high demand group.
High demand groups can be very appealing from the outside, no one signs up for the rape, torture, or manipulative experiences that happen inside of a cult. And the after effects from high demand group life can be extreme, such as PTSD, inability to form romantic relationships, etc.
Yoga was a safe space of retreat and recuperation after being in cults
He was in a cult for 3 years led by Michael Roach at the Asian Classics Institute
He was in Endeavor Academy for 6 years in Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin
These experiences gave him group dynamic perspective
Yoga gave him somatic autonomy, and allowed him to feel himself again after the cultic nature of the groups
He spent age 22-29 in these groups where we would have built some sort of career, and he didn’t
He became a yoga teacher and opened his own yoga studio as a part of his healing
Cults
People end up doing harm to themselves, or do things that they didn’t sign up for
An organization misrepresents itself, and presents itself as a safe haven for people who may be vulnerable for any reason
High Demand Organization, along with other synonyms, are other words for ‘cult’
‘Self Sealed’ implies that everything that happens within the group is to have the individual think it’s for the ‘good’, a ‘bounded choice’ environment (saying that sexual advances or torture are a part of the development toward enlightenment, for example)
The high demand group rewires a person’s attachment patterns to make them ‘unattached’
The content of the cult doesn’t matter (religious, psychedelic, political, etc), it’s the element of control that is the same amongst true cults
There can be political groups that aren’t cults, but the element of control is what defines it as a cult
Octavio Rettig and Gerry Sandoval
They are perhaps responsible for multiple deaths (maybe not directly but through negligence)
They use 5-MEO-DMT with abuse and malpractice
Cult Impact
The impact from a cult can be cognitive, labor related, relationship/family oriented, etc.
Matthew says the estrangement from his family has taken over a decade to repair
The relationships he had prior, has been unable to restored
His identity was changed for him through social coercion
“The cult takes its best possible part of you for its own agenda” – Matthew
The after effects from high demand group life can be extreme, they can have PTSD, they may not be able to form romantic bonds, they may become estranged from their family, etc.
Recent estimates in the US alone say that there are 8,000 high demand groups
These dynamics can be found in many organizations
Wild Wild Country – When a controversial cult leader builds a Utopian city in the Oregon desert, conflict with the locals escalates into a national scandal
Psychotherapy Cult
Psychotherapy cults look like a Buddhist or yoga cult but with different group practice techniques
They will depend upon group psychotherapy that break down and humiliate members and create fear that looks like love and acceptance
It includes members revealing intense secrets so they become vulnerable
Practice And All Is Coming: Abuse, Cult Dynamics, And Healing In Yoga And Beyond
Matthew’s book is applicable in many different community constellations
His intention is to help foster critical thinking and community health
Joe says that anyone in a group dynamic or especially those leading groups (such as an ayahuasca circle) need to read this book
Matthew has been practicing meditation and yoga since 1996, sitting and moving with teachers from the Tibetan Buddhist, Kripalu, Ashtanga, and Iyengar streams. Along the way he has trained as a yoga therapist and an Ayurvedic consultant, and maintained a private practice in Toronto from 2007 to 2015. From 2008 through 2012, he co-directed Yoga Festival Toronto and Yoga Community Toronto, non-profit activist organizations dedicated to promoting open dialogue and accessibility. During that same period, he studied jyotiśhāstra in a small oral-culture setting at the Vidya Institute in Toronto. Matthew currently facilitates programming for yoga trainings internationally, focusing on yoga philosophy, meditation, Ayurveda, and the social psychology of practice. In all subject areas, he encourages students to explore how yoga practice can resist the psychic and material dominance of neoliberalism, and the quickening pace of environmental destruction.
In this episode, Joe interviews Computational Neuro-Biologist, Dr. Andrew Gallimore, one of the world’s knowledgeable researchers on DMT. In the show they discuss DMT and the possibilities of being in an extended state of DMT, such as accessing higher dimensions and communicating with intelligent entities.
3 Key Points:
This reality that we are in is a lower dimensional slice of a higher dimensional structure. DMT is a technology or tool that allows us access to reach out to these higher dimensions.
Andrew has developed and written about the Intravenous Infusion Model, which allows a timed and steady release of DMT to induce an extended state DMT experience.
Extended state DMT hypothesizes that with enough time spent in the DMT space, the ‘map’ of the space would begin stabilize over time and you could develop a ‘life’ in the DMT space like we do in our waking life.
Since age 15, he was into psychedelic drugs and altered states of consciousness
He was at a friends house and was looking at a book called Alternative London and it had writings on different psychedelics but only a very short segment on DMT
His fascination grew from his yearning to learn more about DMT
His interest turned into academic work, learning chemistry and pharmacology and he is now into learning more about the brain itself
He is currently a Computational Neuro-Biologist
DMT
DMT is a compound found almost everywhere in nature, highly illegal, yet highly interesting
Interaction with entities are common
All frames of reference are gone
Andrew says that the first few times were very intense and he would come back with no way to comprehend or describe it
Then after a few more times he started to see the entities and have a more stable experience with more intent
Andrew describes a very vivid experience of a man in a dark robe where he asked him “show me what you’ve got” and he opened his mouth and Andrew woke up a if he had seen God himself. He describes it as a shattering experience
These beings in the DMT experience, aren’t just pointless beings in a dream, they are powerful and extremely intelligent
We don’t have any way to comprehend the levels of intelligence in this dimensional space, we only are ever able to experience intelligence with our human capacity for what intelligence is
There is a sense that these beings are intelligent because they have been around for billions and billions of years or potentially infinitely
Communicating with Intelligent Entities
He calls his book the ‘textbook of the future’
“We are imprisoned in some kind of work of art” – Terence McKenna
This reality is a construct or artifact of the alien intelligence or the ‘other’
“This reality that we are in is a lower dimensional slice of a higher dimensional structure. DMT is a technology or tool that allows us access to reach out to these higher dimensions” – Andrew
DMT is everywhere
“Nature is drenched in DMT, but it takes a high level of sophisticated intelligence to identify it, isolate it, and discover a means of using it as a tool” – Dennis McKenna
“In order to communicate with these beings, we need to bring the right tools to the table” – Andrew
Target Controlled Intravenous Infusion Model – using the same model for DMT as the anesthesia model
It uses administration of a short acting drug using a mathematical model to control the release
“We are not just passive receivers of information but we are actively constructing our world from moment to moment.” – Andrew
Continuity Hypothesis of Dreaming – it says that dreaming is continuous with our waking life, the brain constructs the world when you’re asleep in the same way that it does when you’re awake
Extended State DMT (DMTx)
Our brains are constantly updating its model of reality, so if you put someone through the DMT space for months at a time, that person’s model of reality would completely shift
This idea has been completely unexplored
The hypothesis is that an extended time in the DMT space would begin to make that space more stable over time, the goal being to live in the DMT space as you would in this reality of waking life
The measurement of DMT in the blood with Ayahuasca is 1/5th the level of DMT in the blood as a breakthrough DMT experience
Andrew hasn’t heard of anyone trying the Intravenous Infusion Model yet
There is this space that exists one quantum away, and it is accessible by everyone (technologically, not necessarily legally)
Dr. Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist, pharmacologist, chemist, and writer who has been interested in the neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is the author of a number of articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug, N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), as well as the book Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game (April 2019). He recently collaborated with DMT pioneer Dr. Rick Strassman, author of DMT: The Spirit Molecule, to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended journeys in DMT space. His current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gating access to extradimensional realities and how this can be understood in terms of the neuroscience of information. He currently lives and works in Japan.
Ibogaine is a psychedelic chemical found in the West African shrub Iboga. Bizarre in chemical structure and psychoactive properties, the drug remains mysterious to scientists and psychonauts alike. At high doses, ibogaine causes intense, unforgivingly introspective and dream-like hallucinatory experiences that can last upwards of 24 hours2. The African psychedelic might have remained nothing more than a curiosity in the West if not for the discovery of its ability to disrupt physical and psychological drug addiction4, 5. Thousands of anecdotal reports and preliminary scientific research provide evidence that a single dose of ibogaine can eliminate both withdrawal symptoms and craving in drug addicts1-7. In the United States, ibogaine remains a schedule 1 drug, and those seeking treatment must pilgrimage to countries that do not regulate it or take a chance with illegal underground treatment centers. What will it take for ibogaine to become medically available in the United States?
New drugs must undergo a rigorous vetting process to move from discovery to the legal market. To become a prescriptible medication, drugs must pass through clinical trials regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). These trials consist of a pre-testing phase, four clinical phases, and regulatory checkpoints throughout. Advancing to the next phase is predicated on successful completion of the prior phase.
Before moving to clinical trials, researchers must collect extensive pre-clinical data and submit an Investigational New Drug (IND) application to the FDA. Pre-clinical studies use rodent models to determine how effective the drug is for its intended purpose and its safety.
Phase 1 is the first set of studies to determine the safety and efficacy of the drug in humans. If these studies are successful, researchers can proceed to Phase 2, which are well-controlled studies with larger populations. Phase 3 studies test safety and efficacy with different dosages of the drug in even larger populations comprised of various demographics. While the time it takes to move through all phases varies, this process can take many years. After successful Phase 3 trials, the FDA reviews the data and the researchers submit a New Drug Application (NDA). The FDA reviews the NDA and the drug’s labeling to ensure accurate and sufficient information is provided to the consumer and drug-provider. The drug production facility is also inspected by the FDA for health and quality assurance. If the drug is approved, it will be released on the market and available for prescription. Phase 4 trials occur only after the drug has been approved and is publicly available. In Phase 4, the drug manufacturer must continuously monitor the effects of the drug in patients and submit safety reports to the FDA.
For ibogaine to come to market, it must pass through each of these clinical phases of study. Remarkably, ibogaine began the process of becoming an FDA approved therapeutic medication in the early 1990’s. Pre-clinical and Phase 1 trials conducted by Dr. Deborah Mash at the University of Miami supported the anecdotal evidence that patients had significantly reduced drug withdrawal and craving following ibogaine administration. These trials ended prematurely as a result of several factors, including criticism from the pharmaceutical industry, the apparent costliness to continue, and an intellectual property lawsuit between Mash and ibogaine crusader Howard Lotsof1, 2. No clinical trials have been conducted with ibogaine since this preliminary work over 20 years ago.
Another issue facing the medical legalization of ibogaine is that it cannot simply be prescribed in pill form by a doctor. The drug must be administered in a therapeutic setting, potentially as an aid to psychotherapy, as is the case with MDMA. Pre- and post-counseling are vital to ensure proper translation and integration of the psychedelic experience, as well as addressing the underlying problems that contribute to drug abuse. Furthermore, patients must implement changes outside of the clinic to ensure successful treatment outcomes. This means getting away from the external factors that contribute to drug abuse, which can include leaving relationships with friends, family or partners, and/or moving to a new area. While legalization for medical application is important, there must also be infrastructure developed to support proper administration of the drug.
There have been cases of death associated with taking ibogaine. However, none of these cases have been a result of overdose or toxicity2. Individuals with certain heart conditions are at a higher risk of cardiovascular-related death after consuming ibogaine, and taking drugs of abuse with ibogaine may cause adverse reactions that can result in death. Rather than supporting the case against legalization, the risk of death for certain patients further evidences the necessity of legalization: unlike some clandestine ibogaine sources, regulated treatment centers would have the resources to screen patients for comorbidities (reasons not to ingest the drug) prior to ibogaine administration.
Ibogaine has many hurdles to overcome in order to reach the legal market, but pharmacologist Stanley Glick at Albany Medical College and chemist Martin Kuehne at the University of Vermont developed a drug that could reach consumers much faster: 18-Methoxycoronairidine (18-MC). 18-MC is a derivative of ibogaine intended to produce the same anti-addictive properties without the negative side-effects or psychoactive experience. Some ibogaine advocates contend that the psychoactive experience of ibogaine is equally important for attenuating addiction as the physiological effects. But 18-MC’s lack of psychoactivity will likely be more palatable to consumers, and to the FDA.
The process for making 18-MC medically available is already underway. In 2014, a company called Savant HWP began pre-clinical and Phase 1 trials with 18-MC funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. These trials were successful, and Phase 2 trials are set to begin this year. If clinical trials continue to be successful, 18-MC could be an FDA approved treatment for addiction within the next decade.
18-MC becoming available to patients would be a massive step towards ending the opioid crisis, but ibogaine remains full of unexplored potential. While the legal status of ibogaine in the US makes research a significant challenge, countries in which ibogaine is unregulated provide the opportunity to study its use in legal clinics. In 2017, the Multi-Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) sponsored two studies investigating the efficacy of ibogaine in Mexico and New Zealand3, 7. With abundant data available for legal collection across multiple fields of study, scientists are just beginning to scratch the surface of ibogaine research. Those interested in studying ibogaine should not be discouraged by the barriers in the United States and should look abroad for more opportunities. For more information about how to get involved in ibogaine and other psychedelic research as a scientist, you can read our post here.
Not a scientist? You can still get involved! The simplest action you can take is to call and write your state and federal legislators. Explain how ibogaine’s legal status is hindering the scientific investigation and preventing sufferers of addiction from receiving effective treatment. During voting season, research how the candidates feel about illegal drugs and vote accordingly. You can also donate money to MAPS and other legitimate research organizations to support the scientists who are currently studying ibogaine.
If you are interested in learning more about ibogaine or 18-MC, you can visit the following links:
Alper, Stajić, & Gill, (2012). Fatalities Temporally Associated with the Ingestion of Ibogaine. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 57(2), 398-412.
Brown, & Alper, (2017). Treatment of opioid use disorder with ibogaine: detoxification and drug use outcomes, The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse
Cappendijk, & Dzoljic. (1993). Inhibitory effects of ibogaine on cocaine self-administration in rats. European Journal of Pharmacology, 241(2), 261-265.
Glick, Kuehne, Raucci, Wilson, Larson, Keller, & Carlson. (1994). Effects of iboga alkaloids on morphine and cocaine self-administration in rats: Relationship to tremorigenic effects and to effects on dopamine release in nucleus accumbens and striatum. Brain Research, 657(1), 14-22.
Mash, Ameer, Prou, Howes, & Maillet, (2016). Oral noribogaine shows high brain uptake and anti-withdrawal effects not associated with place preference in rodents. Journal of Psychopharmacology, 30(7), 688-697.
Noller, Frampton, & Yazar-Klosinski, (2017). Ibogaine treatment outcomes for opioid dependence from a twelve-month follow-up observational study, The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse
In this episode, hosts Joe and Kyle interview music artist, East Forest. Influenced by psychedelic Psilocybin sessions, Trevor Oswalt, the mind behind the project, produces soundtracks for psychedelic journeywork sessions.
3 Key Points:
East Forest is a music artist and producer with a mission to create a playground of doors for listeners to open and to explore their inner space.
His recent project, ‘Ram Dass’, captures the words of wisdom of Ram Dass and pairs it with sound, a project with four chapters that will release throughout 2019.
Ayahuasca is connected to the Icaros, but psilocybin doesn’t have a music ritual. His goal with his project, Music for Mushrooms: A soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner, is to bring ritual to psilocybin journeywork.
East Forest is a 10 years and running music project that unfolded exploring into sharing and medicine circles and developed into a public interface
Its based around introspection and tools for people to use
Between retreats, podcasts and live performance, Trevor is inviting people in to assist with their journeys
Ram Dass
Trevor is working on a 4 part record project with Ram Dass
He had the idea to do a record with spiritual teachers
Ram Dass had a stroke 20 years ago, and he got Aphasia from it
It would take him 15-30 minutes to answer a question, so Trevor would put it to the music and put Ram’s words on the pauses in the music
His wisdom and story would come alive in the songs
The first time Ram Dass did psilocybin was with Timothy Leary and he said it changed his life
Ram Dass talks about the ‘witness consciousness’ a viewpoint of things from the soul
It is a place where you can love everyone and tell your truth and accept your dark thoughts
You can’t get rid of your dark thoughts, but you can learn to live with them
Journeywork Soundtrack
Music for Mushrooms: A soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner
Its a 5 hour playlist for journeywork that guides you and helps you do the work
He made it live during his own journeywork session over a weekend the previous summer
He says he is influenced by Keith Jarrett, who does long form pianist pieces
Joe says trance in music is under explored
Trevor describes a trip that he had where he took mushrooms and listened to his own (first) album that he made
“It was as if I created this album without knowing what I was creating. My soul had tricked my ego into doing it so I could use it as a tool in that moment to transform into something new.” – Trevor
There is a lot of music, science, and arts that are inspired by psychedelics
He describes its a symbiotic relationship between psychedelics and music
That’s the thing about art, you put it out there and everyone puts their own meaning to it
His first experience with psychedelics was in college with mushrooms
He was outside at a festival and it was a very transcendent, blissful experience
Retreats
He attends retreats where there is either yoga, wilderness hikes or mainly revolved around music
He does a retreat using music at Esalen with his partner, Marisa Radha Weppner
They are doing another retreat in June at Esalen during the summer solstice and he will also be releasing the third chapter of the Ram Dass Record
He went to Vassar college in New York and there were pianos all over the school, he learned how to play simple songs and was shocked of how great it sounded coming to life and that fed on itself and he was hooked
His first album was made in iMac with pro tools and his skills developed from there
Sound quality is critical in journeywork
Joe’s friend has mentioned that it’s hard to make a living as a music creator, she goes by Living Light
Joe also mentions a festival he attended listening to Reed Mathis and the Electric Beethoven
They went on a 20-30 minute talk about how the music is a ritual
Kyle used to lead some hikes, once was with Trevor Hall and it has gotten more common to collaborate these experiences with music
Live Music
During Ayahuasca, the shamans sing the Icaros, and the song is a part of the ritual
No one uses Ayahuasca recreationally, the ceremony has never been detached from the drug
With psilocybin, in the western culture, it’s almost always only been used recreationally
His goal was to create a new musical tradition that would speak to our western years and make sense to us without taking from another religion and putting it to our ritual
East Forest is an American Ambient/Electronic/Contemporary Classical/Indie Pop artist from Portland, Oregon, United States. The project was created by Trevor Oswalt who derived “East Forest” from the German translation of his last name. To date he has released eight full-length albums and six EPs. East Forest’s newest release, “RAM DASS” is a full length album releasing in collaboration with the acclaimed spiritual teacher. Covering topics such as dark thoughts, nature, the soul and so much more, these songs are full of inspiration. The album will release in four “chapters” throughout 2019, culminating in a full length release on August 9, 2019.
In this Bonus episode The Teafaerie and Joe Moore get into lots of great topics. Enjoy! !
The Teafaerie micro-bio(me)
The Teafaerie is a writer, flow arts teacher, ruespieler, toy inventor, app designer, street performer, party promoter, and superhero. erowid.org/columns/teafaerie
In this episode, Joe interviews Jesse Gould, founder of Heroic Hearts Project, a non-profit doing psychedelic work with veterans. They discuss the difficulties veterans face finding healing from their PTSD in the current landscape.
3 Key Points:
Heroic Hearts is a project geared toward raising funds and providing resources for veterans to receive healing through Ayahuasca and other psychedelics.
Our current landscape of social media and government make it extremely difficult to receive donations and get veterans the help that they need. Heroic Hearts is trying to bridge the gap between PTSD and access to healing.
Veterans tend to feel alone in their symptoms from their experiences, so creating community and an integration plan are both really important in the healing process.
He found the healing potential of Ayahuasca after a week long retreat after struggling with severe anxiety after combat deployments with the army
He was born in Santa Fe, New Mexico and grew up in Florida
Jesse graduated with an Economics Degree from Cornell
Heroic Hearts
Heroic Hearts is trying to be the voice of veterans in the psychedelic community
There are very few options through the department of veteran affairs
The organization helps raise money to provide opportunity for veterans to access treatment such as Ayahuasca retreats
PTSD and Addiction affect the veteran community more than the general public
Aligning the veteran voice with the psychedelic cause is a powerful force for change
Integration is so important, both to understand what you’re trying to achieve (beforehand) and stay on that path (afterward)
Jessie says they work very hard to make sure vets are having true healing through their Ayahuasca experiences
PTSD
People have a common misconception around PTSD that there are these constant traumatic outbreaks, and although that can happen, there are so many people living their day to day lives and you’d never know they have PTSD but they still suffer from it
PTSD doesn’t always come from severely traumatic events like war, it can come from other things like childhood abuse or sexual assault
SSRIs numb the pain but don’t help with any actual healing
Donations
It’s really hard to get donations
Heroic Hearts provided financial scholarships so far to about 15 people
They are doing a retreat in May for another 7 veterans
The received a grant from Ubiome to study the effects of Ayahuasca on the gut microbiome
There is a strong link between the stomach biome and mood
They are coming up with do it yourself marketing campaigns to help individuals raise their own money, setting people up for success
In a place where it’s easier to get money, it’s also harder to get money because so many people are creating personal fundraisers for their dog, etc.
There are more and more large organizations helping smaller companies like Heroic Hearts with research
Community
Breathwork can be used as a helpful bridge between patients and their PTSD
Veterans tend to trust veterans more
They tend to feel alone so creating community among vets is really important
Psychedelics and ceremony really help vets transition out of feeling alone
Jesse says he plans on creating local meetups and groups for vets
He tends to send vets on retreats with friends or other vets from the same community so when they return from their retreat they have a built-in community to come back to
Heroic Hearts Project
There is an application for vets
There are many options to donate, all funds raised go right to the vets
“Why is there no government funding going to the biggest breakthrough in PTSD research through the MAPS MDMA therapy? Not one cent of government money has gone to that.” – Jesse
“Why are we having to send veterans to other countries to get the mental health that they deserve?” – Jesse
Jesse founded Heroic Hearts Project after attending an Ayahuasca retreat in Iquitos, Peru on February 2017. During the week long retreat he instantly saw the healing potential of the drink and knew that it could be a powerful tool in healing the mental struggles of his fellow veterans. Jesse was born in Santa Fe, New Mexico and grew up in New Smyrna Beach, FL. In 2009 he graduated from Cornell University with a degree in Economics. After working in investment banking for a short time he enlisted in the Army and became an Airborne Ranger for four years and three combat deployments. Most recently, he worked in finance in Tampa, FL After struggling with severe anxiety for many years, he finally decided to go to an ayahuasca retreat which has had a profoundly positive effect on his anxiety and daily life.’I know what it is like to be at the mercy of uncontrollable elements in your own head. I also know the extreme relief of finally having these elements under control. Ayahuasca provided this. We have the ability to help thousands who are suffering but we let politics and ignorance get in the way. This is unacceptable. I started this foundation because the therapy works, I will risk what I have to ensure my fellow veterans get the treatment they deserve and a new chance at life.’
In this episode Kyle sits down with a close friend in the psychedelic space, Lucas Jackson. They have shared many experiences such as Near Death Experiences, leading breathwork workshops, and other similarities. They cover topics such as the Near Death Experience, Ayahuasca experience, Breathwork tools, and accepting death, finding meaning and integrating these exceptional experiences.
3 Key Points:
Exceptional experiences are not always euphoric and light, they can also be dark and cathartic and make it difficult to transition back into ‘real life’.
Lucas explains his Ayahuasca experience as his darkest and hardest. He felt alone with no help, no one to talk to to help understand it, he felt as if he actually died. But this gave him a realization and acceptance of death.
The key to making it through and putting understanding to the dark experiences is having the right tools, such as a community of understanding people, practices such as breathwork, yoga, meditation and just simply coming back to the breath.
Lucas’ interest in psychedelics started in high school, the books that he read then were influential
He had a near death experience at 19
He came down with a lung issue and was in the hospital for 2 months and in and out of different stages of consciousness
After that experience his interest for psychedelics and breathwork grew
Lucas describes it not totally as a single NDE but more as being so close to death for an extended period of time
He says it wasn’t mystical and great, coming back to ‘real life’ had some dark qualities
Revisiting a Dark Past
Lucas says he wrote stuff down when he was in the hospital with a breathing tube and couldn’t talk and one day he went through it all and it was very dark and cathartic
When he went through and read his past writings, he said that he felt sympathy for the ‘him’ that wrote it
He says it is hard to remember the person he was before his experience and illness
Breathwork
After he dropped out of school, he started up a farm in Vermont and then toward the end of that he started to feel restless and there were synchronicities that led him to breathwork
He heard that Stan Grof was going to be doing a talk at a local bookshop and he met Lenny and Elizabeth Gibson
He ended up doing breathwork training in New York
He explains the experience as more powerful than what he would have imagined
He said he wanted to tell everyone about it after the first breathwork experience
Kyle says its common with any exceptional experience, people want to run and tell the world
Lucas says the sitting was just as powerful as the breathing
It’s not often that you have someone sit at your side for 2-3 hours giving you full attention
Lucas says that his GTT training was supposed to take 2 years and he thought he was going to get through it in 2 years no problem and he is in his 5th year doing the program and he loves the pace
Kyle says that part of the training in breathwork is doing your own work
Lucas says with this kind of work, you don’t get through it and you’re done, It’s a continuous process
Robert Anton Wilson’s ‘maybe’ logic helps Lucas with being okay with not knowing
He had a few experiences where he went through a ‘death’ feeling, and then he would let go and blast through this ‘light’ and then feelings oneness and wholeness
Ayahuasca
Lucas went through the ‘death’ experience and thought it was actually real, he felt complete void and nothingness
That experience haunted him for years
His ayahuasca experience was really about the purge, letting go of absolutely everything
The remoteness of the experience was what he was seeking, being so far removed from everything he had known, everything that made him comfortable
The shaman was known for his potency of the brew
There is no consistency among the dosage
He felt very alone during the experience, he had no help, but it was almost special because it taught him that he is alone always anyway so there was some comfortability with the realization
The shaman didn’t speak English and the messages that he received through the translator didn’t make him feel completely safe about his experience
It took him over 3 years of chewing on the content and the questions before feeling somewhat okay
Lucas’ advice to anyone wanting to do this is ‘take off, make time for this, you’ll need more time than you think’
“I believe that there is a collective pool to tap into, where you’re processing the suffering of all, and once you hit that, it’s an abyss and you have to surrender. It can be so freeing.” – Lucas
Spiritual Emergence
Lucas says there wasn’t any day or event where he felt like he was going to have to go to the hospital or harm anybody, but it’s because he has the correct tools and great community
For him, the first experience was fun and exciting and then you want to do more and then you get into the work and the hard stuff
“What is, waking up?” – Lucas
There’s the Ram Dass idea that the tool will fall away when its usefulness has been exhausted
Lucas says the tool is having a daily practice, and for him its a breathing practice
Grof’s framework was a lifesaver for Lucas
“What are you going to do with the reality you are presented with?” – a quote from The Truman Show movie
“Even if this is all an illusion, why not make this the best illusion, the best dream?” – Lucas
How are we showing up to the world after something so exceptional?
Final Thoughts
What is this world for?
Lucas mentions an Alan Watts video, it says life is like a dance, there is no goal, and then after the dance we sit down
“What is the particular thing that we are trying to achieve? General improvement of all humanity sounds like a good goal. Hopefully psychedelics can be a huge tool in moving towards that.” -Lucas
Lucas says that he isn’t a therapist, but he is available to talk with someone if they may need it. Having an open and welcoming therapist is great, but if they’ve never had an exceptional experience, it’s helpful to talk to someone who has, therapist or not.
About Lucas Jackson
Lucas has spent his life wandering through inner and outer landscapes, collecting experiences, and sharing those experiences with those closest to him. His outer wanderings have led him to working with earth and plants around the world, including starting a biodynamic/permaculture food forest in Central Vermont. Lucas has also spent time working with people who were experiencing extreme states of consciousness while at Soteria-Vermont and while volunteering with The Zendo Project. The galleries of his inner world are made up of psychedelic musings, astrological insights, and various constellations of esoteric traditions. Lucas holds degrees in Environmental Science and Psychology and is currently pursuing an MA in Religious Studies.
Lucas can be reached through his email address at lucasjackson24@gmail.com as well as on Instagram @biodellic. He is available for astrological readings and is happy to meet others interested in discussing the topics covered throughout this episode of the podcast.
In this special interview, Joe and Kyle sit down with Theologian, John B. Cobb Jr., referred to as the Godfather of American Theology. They recorded with John at the conference they all attended in California, on how exceptional experience can help save the world. They cover a range of topics inspired from Alfred Whitehead’s teachings and the promising applications of Whitehead’s thoughts in the area of ecological civilization and environmental ethics pioneered by John Cobb Jr.
3 Key Points:
Process thinking argues that reality consists of processes rather than material objects, and that thinking this way is similar to the teachings of a psychedelic experience. It is hoped for and believed that exceptional experiences can help save the world.
Whitehead’s process philosophy argues that there is urgency in coming to see the world as a web of interrelated processes of which we are integral parts, so that all of our choices and actions have consequences for the world around us.
Certain curriculum, education systems and Universities are not helping us to see the value of our world. A full systems change is needed and hopefully psychedelics, exceptional experiences and process thinking can help with that.
The senses heighten connection, but we shouldn’t rely only senses for our experiences
The label that can we give to the ‘most fundamental relationship’ is any ‘happening’
What’s happening when we listen to music?
We aren’t hearing one tone after another tone, we are hearing the music as a whole piece
Whitehead calls the fundamental relationship of inclusion, a ‘prehension’
How one moment leads into another moment
If the world is made up of prehensions, then in any given moment, what is prehended?
The boundary between conscious and unconscious experience is fuzzy.
Whitehead calls the relatedness to the past, physical prehensions. But we also prehend, potentialities. It is being experienced as potential not as actual.
Whitehead thinks this is present in very elementary matters.
Whitehead says that waves of vibration are a very large part of the world we live in
Whitehead believes that without some type of variation from moment to moment, that nothing really happens
He wrote a lot on relativity and very little about quantum
He wanted to change our language into using words that mean something is ‘happening’ versus using nouns that say that something ‘is’
“If you only have potentiality and too little grounded in actuality, you better be careful. If you don’t have the potentiality, then you live in a deterministic universe” – John
“Does Whitehead relate the potentialities to his ideas about intuition?”
Intuition can be of both pure potentials and about other people
A lot of paranormal experiences are not supernatural
Just because someone has seen something or done something, it doesn’t mean that it’s true. There is plenty of illusion.
T-shirts available on our store
Complex Societies
An important feature of Whitehead is to distinguish complex society
Panexperientialism is ‘the view that if evolution of humans goes all the way down to subatomic particles, then human ‘experience’ by deduction must have originated at the subatomic level, which implies that not just humans but individual cells, individual molecules, individual atoms, and even individual subatomic particles, such as photons or electrons, incorporate a capacity for ‘feeling’ or degree of subjective inferiority.’
There might be in-deterministic qualities in individual entities
From a Whiteheadian point of view, contemporary physics would be almost universally valid if the entire world were made up entirely of physical feelings, feelings of actual occasions, ‘what is’.
“What would be opposed to physical feelings?”
Conceptual feelings, feelings of potentials
He thinks there are feelings of potential in every actual occasion
“The attempt to make standard physics apply to the quantum world are a total failure.” -John
“The attempt to make standard physics apply to the human experience is the task of the Neuroscientists. They think that the subjective experience has a causal role to play in the world.” -John
It’s more committed to metaphysics than it is to empirical study
“Do you think what’s going on in the mind, say neurotransmitters or electrical activity firing, that is creating this reality, or the experience, is having an influence on the neurochemistry?”
John says that the psyche plays a role
Scientists who are busy engineering genetic change, tell us purpose plays no role in genetic change
“What do you mean by no purpose in genetic change?”
Purpose cannot have a causal effect in the Cartesian world
They say ‘I know that my purposes are completely the result of mechanical relations between my neurons’
“Could you elaborate on the definition of actual occasions?”
The psyche is a consistent series of actual occasions
Its what kinds of things are in and of themselves, ‘actual’
It’s in the distinction of things that can be divided up into other entities
An actual occasion cannot be divisible into other actual occasions
Like an atom, it is divisible, but dividing it does not keep it from actually existing
For Whitehead, an actual occasion is the basic unit of actuality
Its an alternative to a ‘substance’ way of viewing
When we look at other living beings, animals with brains and such, we assume they have a psychic life
John thinks that plants have some kind of unified experience
Some people have a feeling about a tree, that it’s not just a bunch of cells interacting
“It’s hard for me to think that a stone is an experiencing entity, I think the molecules though are.” – John
“I’m sure that cells are influenced by the emotions of people” -John
Having a particular conceptuality does not define how things are going to map out
“This world view seems very psychedelic.”
Among quantum physicists, Whitehead’s name is known and appreciated.
It may mean that physics as a whole might adopt an organic model than just mechanistic one
The common sense in this is that our knowledge of each other is not just in visual and auditory clues, but people have been told so long that it is
“What else would it be informed by if not by visual and auditory cues?”
Just by our immediate experience of each other
If you go into a room, there is an immediate climate there. You can tell when you walk into a room full of angry people.
The Great Books program needs revision. It’s only been the great western books. John hopes they have incorporated great books from other parts of the world
There are parts of different educational systems that are better than what we have
“If I had an opportunity to create a school, it would be a school that teaches ecological civilization because a healthy human survival is a goal that ought not to be regarded as an eccentric and marginal one, but regarded as what all we human beings ought to be getting behind collectively, together. And if you have a school for that, the curriculum would be quite varied, but the production and consumption and sharing of food should be a very central part of it.” -John
Capitalism has ignored much of reality
John says creating a curriculum is not his role, his role is deconstruction because he thinks what is going on now is absurd
“Enlightenment is the worst curse of humanity, we have been enlightened into not believing all kinds of things. The disappearance of subject from the world of actuality. If that’s enlightenment, then I don’t want to be enlightened.” – John
Language
John thinks we need a lot of reflection on the language we use
The questions that are the most important are the ones rarely asked
“One of my favorite parts of Whitehead is the reframing of language, our words carry inertia that we are not aware of” – Joe
The reason there are 36 universities for process studies and 0 in the United States, is because in the US, process isn’t as fundamental as substance
Kyle Shares his Near Death Experience
Kyle got in a snowboarding accident, ruptured his spleen and lost about 5 pints of blood
It became mystical when he was in the MRI machine and he was standing on one side of the room with the doctors and in his body at the same time
There was an orb of light, and an external voice or ‘experience’ that said “you’re going home, back to the stars where you came from, this is just a transition, the more you relax into it, the easier it will be.”
Kyle describes it as a blissful experience, but he had a hard time integrating it back into his life.
Whitehead has done a remarkable job to describe process, and exceptional experience and putting a language to it
Joe says that Whitehead’s work has helped put the psychedelic experience into words
“Do you recall the first time you heard something that made you interested in the impact of psychedelics?”
Lenny Gibson was probably one of the first people that opened his eyes to the positive uses
“Today, it would be remarkable if 10% of the world’s population survived without civilization” -John
He is confident that there are good things that come from psychedelics
He says Whitehead has made him understand the changes that might make us behave in responsible ways, so he doesn’t feel the necessity of having a psychedelic experiences
“What kind of changes?”
We have to change from our substance thinking to process thinking
We need to shift from thinking that every individual is self-contained, we are all products of our relationships with each other.
In the Whiteheadian view, any individual is, the many becoming one. To be an individual is being a part of everything.
John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D, is a founding co-director of the Center for Process Studies and Process & Faith. He has held many positions, such as Ingraham Professor of Theology at the School of Theology at Claremont, Avery Professor at the Claremont Graduate School, Fullbright Professor at the University of Mainz, Visiting Professor at Vanderbilt, Harvard Divinity, Chicago Divinity Schools. His writings include: Christ in a Pluralistic Age; God and the World; For the Common Good. Co-winner of Grawemeyer Award of Ideas Improving World Order.
This interview was transcribed from our Navigating Psychedelics: Lessons on Self-Care & Integration master class with Elizabeth Gibson of Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork. In this interview, Elizabeth shares her insights of integrating exceptional experiences from facilitating and working with Holotropic Breathwork for over 25 years. Elizabeth has a great wealth of knowledge about the integration process and we are honored to present her insights.
Introduction
Kyle Buller: Welcome to the Psychedelics Today exclusive interview for the Self Care and Integration course. Today we are here with Elizabeth Gibson of DreamShadow Transpersonal Breathwork to talk about integration and breathwork. Thank you for joining us today, Elizabeth. It’s great to have you on.
Elizabeth Gibson: Thanks for having me, I’m happy to be here.
Kyle: So, let’s dig in, what does integration mean to you?
Elizabeth: Well, it’s a big topic and a really important topic to me. To me, integration is one of the most important aspects of work with extraordinary experiences. How do you take material that’s come up for you and bring it into your everyday life? That’s where the real benefit of this work comes from. I think it’s a topic that’s often overlooked.
So, how do people go back out into the world and realize the benefits of the intense inner work that they’ve done? That’s what it’s about to me. It’s about how people figure out how to do that and supporting them in that process.
Kyle: To backtrack a little bit, you have been facilitating breathwork for almost 20 years at this point? [25 years as of 2019].
And then you also were part of some MDMA therapy back in the 80s, right? When it was legal? So, you’ve been in this work for a while — working with people with non-ordinary states and doing integration work.
Elizabeth: Trying to, yeah.
Joe: What are some of the most important thing you see people maybe not do adequately to try to integrate?
Elizabeth: Well, I think the basic principle that we always remind people of when they are leaving a workshop or leaving a session that has involved an intense experience of any kind is the ongoing nature of the process. So, a lot of people who are, especially people who are new to this work, tend to think it’s all about the session.
The session, of course, is extremely important, but the process continues after the session is over. The intense emotions or material that has begun to come up during the session, if it’s a very organic process, can continue in the days and weeks after the session has actually taken place.
So, it’s really important to remind people that it’s important to give themselves space and to allow that process to continue and to really respect what’s going on inside and not try to jump right back into everyday life and the demands of work. given that, for many people, that’s a very difficult thing. People have jobs and families and relationships that they’re going back to.
It is important to remind them to remember the ongoing nature of the process and that it’s not all about your hours in the session. I think all of us who have done this work ourselves personally, I mean, I remember after when I did MDMA-assisted psychotherapy back in the ’80s, I can remember for days afterwards just kind of yearning to get back in the space I had been in.
It seemed like such a sweet experience and my life outside of the session seemed pale by experiences. It’s almost if I was trying to get back to where I had been in the session instead of understanding that I needed to pay attention to what was happening to myself right now in the moment and reconnect with myself in that way.
I think that’s really what integration is about — learning to be more present and authentic with ourselves in the moment. No matter what we are doing, whether we’re in an intense session or you know, even something as mundane as washing the dishes.
Kyle: Yeah, you make some really great points. Joe and I put that quote, “chop wood, carry water” in our presentation in this course. But also, it seems like people want to jump back into sessions again, like I think we brought up the fact that people may want to just go back and do ayahuasca ceremonies over and over again.
Maybe not because of the purging aspect, but just continue taking drugs to stay in that state (of consciousness). Or go back and do a bunch of breathwork sessions to move through some stuff. I think it is important to have that downtime and really be able to embody the experience and really understand what that means.
Elizabeth: I agree, Kyle. I think a lot of the changes that come about as a result of doing this work are subtle changes. The traumatic changes are fairly obvious and maybe don’t need as much attention in the sense that with the subtle changes they can be easily overlooked. The long-term changes that take place over time, those are the ones that I think you really want to honor and respect and give space to allow that to happen in yourself.
Developing A Daily Practice
Kyle: Do you have any tips or advice to how to stay in the moment after a session for the next week or a couple months to really embody what just happened?
Elizabeth: Yeah, well that’s the challenge. I think that it really is a very individual thing. There are specific techniques that can be used. I was looking this morning, and Stan Grof spoke in his book, Holotropic Breathwork, He has a couple of entries for integration. He talks about specific kinds of techniques that can be helpful for people after they do this kind of work. And you know, it’s the kinds of techniques that allow you to tap into yourself, be it whatever kind of form meditation works for you.
Some people like sitting meditation, some people like more active kinds of meditation like tai chi. Some people can’t really connect with meditation at all and there can be other kinds of activities like I remembered when I read Stan’s passage that he used to recommend for people who had intense kinds of physical experiences, that aerobic exercise, like swimming, running, for people who might be inclined in that way, who are more physically active, just as a way of connecting with the kind of energy and feelings that are operating at the deeper levels.
So, for me, I always have found it helpful to journal about my experiences in the days afterward. Not right after an experience because I’m not that verbal yet, which is why initially after a breathwork session, for instance, we offer drawing materials so people can just work with shapes and colors and begin to work with their experiences symbolically on that level before even putting words to them.
But then maybe a day or two later, I always find it really helpful to write about my experience. I notice if I keep up the process journaling in the days moving forward from there, I’m apt to stay more connected with the feelings of the experience.
But again, it’s whatever works for an individual person to create space for themselves to just sink into themselves. Basically, that means some kind of ongoing form of practice, daily practice, whatever works. And that’s a very personal and individual kind of thing.
And we’ve all, I know, tried in our lives to stick to some kind of practice. We’ve tried lots of things. What I’ve learned over the years is for me, I have to make my practice manageable. I can’t try and make it too big. So, I’ve learned for me, if I do something every morning for about half an hour, that’s probably the most realistic expectation I can have for myself.
So, I like to do yoga and tai chi, and I like to journal. Some combination or at least one of those, ideally in the morning. But then during the day, I mean, think what you like to do to nurture and support yourself. Get outside, go for a walk, connect with nature, to work it into your daily life as much as you can so it’s not like a separate kind of thing that becomes one more thing to do every day that you may not get to.
Kyle: Right. And then if you start acting that way, then you start beating yourself up that you’re not practicing, so yeah. I know that happens to me. I’m like, “Ah, I should really meditate more.” Then I think to myself, “Well, why am I beating myself up over it?”
Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah.
But do you find that? I mean, I do. I know that if I do something first thing in the morning, then if I wait ’til the end of the day, it’s less likely that it’s going to happen, so-
Kyle: Absolutely.
Elizabeth: My tai chi teacher used to say, “Just do it before you think too much about it. Get up and do it.”
The Importance of Community and Group Process
Joe: Can you think of any things not to do that might impact integration in a negative way?
Elizabeth: That’s a really interesting question, Joe. Things not to do. I think it’s important not to isolate yourself after you do this kind of work. So, that in addition to the whole principle of the ongoing nature of the process, I think the principle of community is really important.
I’ve come to appreciate the community around breathwork over the years — the relationships that we have created and the support that people offer each other. I really think we can’t do this kind of work completely on our own. We need support not just during the sessions, but in the days and weeks, months and even years between sessions.
We need support. We need to be able to talk with people about our experiences. We need to process our experiences verbally. I mean, we’re very social animals as human beings and we thrive in group kinds of settings. Now, some people at first are put off by group experiences and prefer to work one on one, maybe with a guide or a therapist. And that’s fine, but usually, there’s at least one other person involved. Somebody who can help you get through the rough spots in a way that’s supportive and not overly directive. And that can be a good friend as much as a therapist or an experience facilitator.
Kyle: Yeah. What’s Lenny’s saying? “We’re the descendants of very successful tribes.”
Elizabeth: Yeah, we’re all the descendants of successful tribes. So, that’s part of our heritage. I think in our margin, in our modern culture, that’s something that’s missing. And you see a lot of people just yearning for that kind of communal experience.
A lot of people come to our workshops, I see them get so much meaning and joy out of just the personal connections that are made. A lot of people are simply lonely, and you just need that kind of contact and the building of community and relationships.
Kyle: It makes me think a lot about rites of passages, how those are formed, say, in some of those traditional cultures where maybe the adolescent would go out and you’d have this experience, but then they’d have the safety net of the elders, the container, and the community to come back to.
And when we have these really big experiences, I mean, we might have a few people to talk to, but we don’t really have that community to come back to. I know after my near-death experience, I was like, “Whoa, who do I talk to you about this now? I can’t really talk to my parents about it.” And I had to leave to find that. And I found it in Burlington. I found it in breathwork with you and Lenny.
Elizabeth: I remember that about you, Kyle. And that was a process that took many years for you to build that kind of community. So, as a young teenager, that was really … As I understand it, that was one of the hardest aspects of it afterwards was that you didn’t have anybody you felt you could really talk to.
Kyle: Yeah, exactly. And that’s been one of the biggest integration pieces for me when I think about integration — how do you just be okay with the people around you and learn how to just embody that experience even though you might not be able to talk to that person necessarily? How do you continue to be in a relationship with them and not feel so isolated?
Elizabeth: Well that kind of goes back to your last question, Joe, of what not to do. So, Kyle just touched on that really when he mentioned who you can’t talk to about these experiences. So, I think it’s important to search out people who you know will be supportive and understanding, and not share your experiences with people who might discount or trivialize your experience because they just don’t understand this kind of work.
And that can be lonely if it’s somebody important in your life that you can’t discuss these kinds of experiences with. That’s definitely a big dilemma.
Kyle: Do you have any tips or advice to work through anything that arises after a workshop or an experience? We talk about the process continuing, but maybe how to work with some of that stuff that comes up in the next coming weeks to months.
Elizabeth: Well, so if there’s somatic stuff coming up in the body, it can be really helpful to go get some bodywork after a session. A really good deep tissue massage or any kind of work that’s going to help resolve things that might still be coming up in the body. We’re fortunate now in this day and age, there are so many different kinds of bodywork.
Bodywork can be extremely helpful.
And then those of us who are holding the space for people and supporting this kind of work, I think it’s on us to make ourselves accessible to people after the sessions and to say that we can be available for them to reach out and contact us if they’re having trouble — so that they know there’s somebody who understands what they’ve been through who’s there for them to listen to them.
I mean sometimes people just need to talk. It’s not like you have to do much else than just listen and support them with your attention. People need to be heard and feel that what they’re experiencing isn’t totally abnormal but it’s just a normal part of their process. That can be all they need maybe. Just a friend or a person who understands that they can talk with.
Joe: That ties into a lot of what we’ve been talking about lately where, maybe you have these integration groups, but that’s the essence of it right there is just to talk and be heard.
Elizabeth: I love the idea of the integration groups that you guys are doing. I mean, I think that’s exactly the kind of format that will help fill in the space in between experiential sessions and give people the sense of community and belonging.
I mean look at the whole AA thing, the fact that that’s done as group work. I mean, people struggling with in the addiction field, they go to groups that meet regularly where they can talk about their experiences and share them and feel that kind of support.
That has been an incredibly successful approach over the years. So, I think your idea of having these integration groups is exactly the kind of approach that’s going to be helpful for people who are struggling with integrating extraordinary experiences. I’m really happy you’re doing that.
Kyle: Thank you. Yeah, part of it too is we come to your workshop for a weekend, have these really close connections, have these really powerful experiences, and then in between it’s like, “Oh, where’s that community?”
So, part of it for me is how do we keep it going? How do we keep the conversation going and finding those people that we can support and hold space for so the process can continue and it’s still healing with it.
Elizabeth: Technology has made that easier too. I mean, look at what we’re doing right now. And the fact, even as an email group, you can continue sharing. It definitely has its limitations, but it’s better than nothing.
Don’t Make Any Big Changes Right Away
Joe: You often speak about not making any big changes in the next six months. Can you speak about that?
Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, a lot of times people take material that comes up in their sessions, there’s a tendency maybe to take it literally and think that to interpret their session in a certain way that makes them think, “Oh, that means I need to leave my job right now, or I need to end this relationship now.”
We encourage people to sit with that for a little while before they act on it, to be sure that things have settled and that they’ve had some time to process their experience a little more before making any major life decisions.
But there are no hard and fast rules about that. It’s just something to be aware of. People can have amazing insights and extraordinary experiences that are … Can be taken literally. But sometimes as you know, there are many levels to these experiences, and you have to treat them symbolically or metaphorically. So, it’s just a caveat, but not a hard and fast rule.
Final Thoughts
Joe: Is there anything, any additional points you might want to raise before we kind of wrap up here?
Elizabeth: I would just encourage people to reach out when they feel like they’re having difficulty or trouble understanding something that might be going on, and knowing that there are all kinds of groups out there. And to be sure that when they do this kind of work, they do it in a safe setting, and that they have access to people who will be able to support them afterwards.
The MAPS website is a really good resource for understanding this aspect of the work. I think there’s material there about safety set and setting. So, to keep all of those considerations in mind, I would just end with that reminder.
Joe: You’re never alone and people do want to help you.
Elizabeth Gibson, thank you very much. You can find her website at dreamshadow.com.
Elizabeth: Thank you.
About Elizabeth Gibson
Elizabeth Gibson, M.S., holds a bachelor’s degree in literature and a master’s degree in biology from The University of Tulsa. She has completed Herbert Benson’s Clinical Training in Mind/Body Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Previously she worked as a consultant at Arthur D. Little, Inc., and Radian Corporation in the areas of environmental protection and food research. She is a writer, editor and homemaker with interests in environmental literacy, yoga, music and gardening. Elizabeth is the editor of Stanislav Grof ’s The Ultimate Journey: Consciousness and the Mystery of Death and a contributor to the teaching manual MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for the Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, both published by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. For the past 12 years, she has been responsible for local news for the Town of Pawlet, and from 2008 – 2014 she was the editor of the weekly environment section for the Rutland Herald and Montpelier Times Argus newspapers in Vermont.
In this episode, Joe gets on the mic to chat about some current events in the psychedelic space such as the recent passing of psychedelic icon Ralph Metzner, the Psilocybin decriminalization initiatives in Denver and now Oakland, and psychedelic use in the Military.
3 Key Points:
Psychedelic Icon, Ralph Metzner passed away on March 14th, 2019. He had a remarkable career and published a ton of books around psychedelics in his time.
A recent study found that a single dose of Psilocybin can enhance creative thinking and empathy for up to 7 days after use.
Activists are planning an initiative to decriminalize Psilocybin in Oakland. Denver will vote on decriminalization on the May 7th ballot.
Joe mentions conversation he had with a friend of the show
He mentioned that Ayahuasca sometimes has mold on it
Ayahuasca is labor intensive to make, so they make it once and then it grows mold
Then people come and drink the mold infested Aya and it can make a person more sick than they need to be
“If you have the option to be more safe, should you be?”
If we have less harm and less deaths in the drug world over time, in the next 5 or 6 years we are going to see huge benefits with these substances
Staying out of jail, not dying, and by being safer with drugs we have more of a chance to influence policy and make these substances and drug checking more available for the future culture
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
In this episode Kyle and Joe sit down and discuss Esketamine, a new FDA approved drug that is a derivative of Ketamine. They invite quotes from professionals who have experience with generic Ketamine and to voice their opinions.
3 Key Points:
Janssen Pharmaceutica has announced an FDA approved derivative of Ketamine, Esketamine, called Spravato.
The new drug is facing critique on its pricing, route of administration as well as functional differences when compared to the traditional, generic Ketamine.
Joe and Kyle invite professionals in the field who have experience with generic Ketamine to voice their opinions, hopes and concerns about Spravato.
Janssen Pharmaceutica, a Johnson & Johnson Subsidiary has created a derivative of Ketamine called Esketamine and has gone through the whole FDA approval process
There has been some concern about a big pharmaceutical company, Janssen coming in and creating a ‘new molecule’ and introducing an FDA approved ‘psychedelic’ to make generic Ketamine obsolete
Pricing
There is going to be price differences based on routes of administration (Intravenous vs lozenges)
$1.59 at 100 milligrams (93% bioavailable when administered IM)
The list price of Esketamine through Janssen will be $590-$885 per treatment session based on the dosage taken which will vary between patients
During the first month of therapy, that would add up to $4720-$6785
After the first month, maintenance therapy could range from $2300-$3500
Joe reads a quote from Scott that says that the new Janssen Esketamine product is overpriced, the research data showed that only 2 out of 5 studies demonstrated effectiveness, and generic Ketamine is much more effective and cheaper than Esketamine
Insurance
Insurance might cover Esketamine
Kyle says he hasn’t heard of too many generic Ketamine sessions being covered by Insurance
“I need not continue the discussion. The case is too clear for elaboration. Yet the trained body of physiologists under the influence of the ideas germane to their successful methodology entirely ignore the whole mass of adverse evidence. We have here a colossal example of anti-empirical dogmatism arising from a successful methodology. Evidence which lies outside the method simply does not count. We are, of course, reminded that the neglect of this evidence arises from the fact that it lies outside the scope of the methodology of the science. That method consists in tracing the persistence of the physical and chemical principles throughout physiological operations.” – quote from Function of Reason
Opinions
Joe invites listeners to ask questions and leave a message of opinions and such (either anonymously or using your name)
Google voice 970-368-3133
About Kyle
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle is currently pursuing his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
A common mistake people make is thinking all of the work happens in the session, when really only a portion of the work happens in the session, and the rest happens afterward during integration.
It’s important not to isolate yourself after this work, it’s important to search out people who will be understanding of your experience.
Elizabeth compares journeywork to planting a seed. You can’t grow a whole plant in one session, you simply plant the seed. You determine how it grows by how you water and cultivate it (integrate it), it’s a process that can’t be rushed.
Integration is one of the most important aspects of work with extraordinary experiences
“How do you take material that’s come up and bring it into your everyday life? How do you realize the benefit of the intense work that you’ve done?” – Elizabeth
Elizabeth’s Background
Elizabeth has been facilitating Breathwork for 23 years
She was a part of MDMA trials in the 80’s when it was legal
Elizabeth helped edit the MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy Manual
Integrating the Experience
A common mistake that people make is thinking all of the work is in the session itself, but really that’s only half of the work. The other half of the work happens after leaving the session, the integration.
Integration is about being more present with ourselves in every moment, not just yearning to get back to the state of the session
The long term subtle changes that happen over time are the most important
Stan Grof says that aerobic activity like swimming, running, etc is a way of connecting with energy and feelings that operate at deeper levels
Elizabeth says she likes drawing immediately after an experience to work with it symbolically, and then journaling a day or two later once she is able to verbalize her experience
“Just do it before you think too much about it”
Community Benefits
It’s important not to isolate yourself after this work
“The principle of community is really important. We can’t do this work completely on our own.” – Elizabeth
We are all the descendants of successful tribes
It’s important to search out people who will be understanding of your experience
If there is somatic stuff happening in the body, it is a good idea to do some body work, such as deep tissue massage
On the other side, if we are holding the space for others who went through a session, it’s important for us to make ourselves available for them
Just to talk and to be heard is so important on its own
Email follow up is tricky because a person can pour their heart out or be very vague or not get deep in their email
The email follow up method is also tricky because of difficult response time and interpretation of responses
Facebook groups can be a helpful way of finding the others and creating a community to be able to reach out to understanding individuals
Elizabeth says it’s like the analogy of seeds being planted, you decide how you want it to grow and how you cultivate it
Acting too quickly after an experience isn’t always the best idea, its best to keep it slow
Journeywork Tips
Safe setting
Access to people who will be able to support you afterward
Elizabeth Gibson, M.S., holds a bachelor’s degree in literature and a master’s degree in biology from The University of Tulsa. She has completed Herbert Benson’s Clinical Training in Mind/Body Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Previously she worked as a consultant at Arthur D. Little, Inc., and Radian Corporation in the areas of environmental protection and food research. She is a writer, editor and homemaker with interests in environmental literacy, yoga, music and gardening. Elizabeth is the editor of Stanislav Grof ’s The Ultimate Journey: Consciousness and the Mystery of Death and a contributor to the teaching manual MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for the Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, both published by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. For the past 12 years, she has been responsible for local news for the Town of Pawlet, and from 2008 – 2014 she was the editor of the weekly environment section for the Rutland Herald and Montpelier Times Argus newspapers in Vermont.
In this episode, Joe holds conversation with Dr. Michael Sapiro, Clinical Psychologist out of Boise, Idaho. They cover topics surrounding how meditation and mindfulness intersect with psychedelia as well as psychic ability, altered states and integration.
3 Key Points:
Meditation and psychedelics have a lot of overlap such as ego dissolution and unity.
Dr. Sapiro believes that meditation and mindfulness bring personal awakening in order to create collective transformation.
Both meditation and psychedelics are the most beneficial when they are integrated into our waking life and when we use our experiences to help others and our planet.
It’s a dissolving type of experience, Its a non-dualistic style of tradition
The non-dual tradition helps one just be “whole and unbroken” and focus on the present and now
He does the human work in the Buddhism Dharma style, and the spiritual work with the restful piece of being in the now, the focus being integration
Vision
His vision has been on enhancing personal awakening in order to create collective transformation
He wants to help communities and states and nations to transform via individual awakening
He has worked with law enforcement agents, military vets, community members, a variety of people at different levels all the way from grounding to stability to thriving
He always ends each Sangha with saying ‘take this work and apply it to your neighbors’
A Sangha is a buddhist community of monks/individuals in support of each other
“People have such a deep connection to nature when you come out of the psychedelic experience. You start taking care of the environment differently than before went you went in.” – Michael
“We now have data on greater environmental concern and stewardship after the psychedelic experience.” – Joe
People who are consciously interacting with things outside of themselves have a greater care for those things. “If I am hurting the world I am hurting myself.” – Michael
“Hopefully one of the bigger things that come out of the psychedelic movement are greater levels of environmentalism and global stewardship” – Joe
The psychedelic movement helps us see systems that are made up are a part of our tangible reality and our responsibility to take care of the people in the systems
We can use psychedelics and meditation, and integration from these experiences, to see how we can operate in these systems and help people find resources in these systems
One of his colleagues has reached over 200,000 people with their work since 2011
His goal isn’t to be the lead, but the support of leaders, especially women because he feels the need for a balance and the need for more female leaders
Michael says he loves surrounding himself around ‘world-changers’ and loves doing anything to be around them and learn from them
Boise, Idaho
Michael says its surprisingly conscious state
Its very community oriented
There are 6-7 Buddhist Sanghas, groups of dedicated folks to their practice
There is a lot of nature and nature is Dharma, it is the teacher
Psychic Ability and Altered States
It’s very normal for humans to have psychic experiences
All of us have access to these states, we just have to tap into them
Michael encourages people to accept and cultivate these experiences
It may be better to accept these experiences than to deny them
There is a difference between energetic flow and psychosis
Crazy Wise is a documentary that touches on spiritual emergence issues
The Overlap of Psychedelic States and Meditation
The Institute of Noetic Sciences had a program called The Future of Meditation Research
They found in the research that they were only looking at reducing anxiety and depression, the clinical applications
But they found that more than half of the people experienced psychic phenomenon, mystical experiences, terrifying experiences, the things that overlap/correlate with psychedelic experiences
Both meditative and psychedelic experiences point to ego dissolution and unity at the same time
Ego and anxiety both have wisdom in them, we don’t want to lose them completely, but learn how to balance them and use them wisely
“We need to be mindful of how we integrate what we learn in the psychedelic/meditative state into our waking life” – Michael
“How can meditation and psychedelics lend themselves to being the best version of ourselves while committing to others well being? That is what I am most passionate about.” – Michael
Michael Sapiro, PsyD is a clinical psychologist, Dharma teacher, meditation researcher, and former Buddhist monk. He is on faculty at Esalen Institute and is a Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences where he engages in research on meditation, transformation, and consciousness. He completed his postdoctoral fellowship in advanced psychology at the Boise VA Medical Center where he specialized in rural health, PTSD, and combat trauma. Dr. Sapiro teaches nationally on the art and science of transformation, expanded human capabilities, self-care, and meditation for personal and community growth. He is the founding teacher of Maitri Sangha Boise, an integrated Buddhist community, and director of Maitri House Yoga, LLC, serving the community through integrating meditation practices, psychology, noetic sciences, and social justice. He can be found at maitrihouseyoga.com. He and his wife, Chef Sararak, own and operate Lime and a Coconut: The Art of Thai Cuisine, and together lead international meditation and culinary retreats to Thailand.
In this episode Joe interviews, Richie Ogulnick, a long time Ibogaine provider and enthusiast. During the show they discuss Ibogaine and Addiction-Interruption Therapy.
3 Key Points:
Ibogaine is a compound found in the Tabernanthe Iboga plant that has been used to treat opioid and other addictions.
Ibogaine has shown to have the power to reset the biochemistry of a person to a non-addictive state, and reduce/eliminate the agonizing symptoms of withdrawal, allowing a person to heal from an addiction.
The combination of Ibogaine, relocation and integration therapy is the best scenario for healing someone and preventing them from relapse.
In 1989 he was Introduced to Ibogaine while visiting family and friends in New York
Its an alkaloid extracted from a West African shrub
He was ready to fall in love with doing something with purpose
He came across an article about a corporation called NDA created by Howard Lotsof
When Howard (a heroine addict) was 19 years old, a chemist gave him a dose of Ibogaine
A few days later, he realized he “wasn’t afraid” and then he realized he wasn’t having opioid withdrawals
In “Needle Park”, a park in New York, heroin addicts come there for free needles
Richie’s dream was to dose all the addicts with Ibogaine, and that only a quarter of them would show up to Needle Park because they were not addicted anymore
He brought 13 grams of Ibogaine back from Africa with him
He received a chapter from a book (Healing Journey) called Ibogaine: Fantasy and Reality by Claudio Naranjo
People were coming from all over the world to receive Ibogaine treatments
It was 15 years where he conducted over 750 psycho-spiritual and addiction-interception sessions underground
Upon training people, those people would then go and open their own treatment centers in Mexico, abroad, etc.
What is Iboga
Tabernanthe Iboga is the plant
Ibogaine Hydrochloride is the best product to use to interrupt addiction and symptoms of withdrawal from an addiction
Ibogaine is safe as long as someone has had an EKG that has been looked at very closely for any red flags
Other than cardiac risk and previous suicidality, schizophrenia, psychotic breaks there aren’t many more threats to being treated with Ibogaine
The Miracle Compound
“There is a miracle compound in ibogaine. There is nothing I have come across on the planet that can reset the biochemistry to a pre-addictive state, that can bring a person to make a choice without the agony of the symptoms of withdrawal.” – Richie
There is a 36 hour window where a person has a life review, what brought them to the addictive process in the first place, the person’s willingness and maturity
It creates a symbiotic relationship for a person to explore themselves with insight
Relapse is possible if they don’t work on the reason they became addicted in the first place
It’s the witness component that Ibogaine delivers that helps people process through their addiction
Ibogaine as a molecule has a really pharmacologically complex, alien like structure
Relapse
Justin Hoffman, a DJ in Las Vegas runs Holistic House, a facility where people get to relax and get out of their previous context for a week or two after treatment
If a family wanted to help out their family member who is addicted to heroine, Richie says that he asks the family about relocation because it’s a big part of reducing relapse
He also says that finding a proper therapist to help afterward is huge too
The combination of Ibogaine, relocation and integration therapy is the best scenario for healing someone and preventing them from relapse
Big Pharma’s Impact
Joe says how he got a message from Dana Biel, talking about how the harm reduction movement has been manipulated by the ‘Big Pharma’ industry, especially suboxone
Richie says that drugs like suboxone are prescribed to be used everyday for the rest of someone’s life, and Ibogaine is a “one-time-only” style drug that doesn’t require alot of money to heal people
Ibogaine is not profitable so its not attractive to Big Pharma
“Ibogaine will never hit the streets like LSD did. It’s not a recreational experience, it’s a long, daunting 3 stage process.” – Richie
Use Cases
He knows of a story where these two ladies took Ibogaine daily for their Parkinson’s, and as soon as they stopped taking Ibogaine, they got their symptoms back
He knows of another lady who had been walking with a cane and upon taking Ibogaine she was walking a mile around her neighborhood without her cane
Final Thoughts
Joe asks if Richie thinks we are over harvesting Iboga
There is the Wakanga tree that contains a small amount of Ibogaine, so he thinks we are okay
Ibogaine is an important subject because a lot of people are dying from opiates
Ibogaine is available in Portugal but it hasn’t had much activity
It can be used for therapeutic use as well as addiction-interruption
Richie Ogulnick is a long time Ibogaine provider and enthusiast Over the course of fifteen and a half years, he conducted about 750 sessions, including addiction-interruption treatments. He spent the next several years referring close to 1,000 more people to other ibogaine providers. During that time, he also trained doctors and ex-addicts who opened ibogaine centers throughout the world. Richie feels a pull to focus again on the more therapeutic and psycho-spiritual treatments where he is able to offer his expertise in ibogaine treatment along with his knowledge of reintegration with individuals who are looking to deepen and enrich their life experience.
In this Episode, Joe interviews Brad Burge, Director of Strategic Communications at MAPS. In this episode they discuss the Phase 3 Trial for MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy, contradictions and Expanded Access.
3 Key Points:
MAPS is about to run Phase 3 Trials of MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy
If MDMA passes this third phase, it will still be tricky to get insurance involved. But the cost of one series of MDMA Therapy is much cheaper than a lifetime of typical pharmaceutical drugs and therapy sessions to heal PTSD.
The only reason for-profit companies haven’t gotten involved before was because there wasn’t a promise on their investment. Finally, for-profit companies (like Compass Pathways) are interested in advancing these medicines (Psilocybin and MDMA).
After phase 3 trials, if all goes well, it would mean that MDMA would be the drug to be used (only) alongside Psychotherapy
MAPS is training therapists, counselors and social workers
One way to get more people educated who are interested in this would be taking therapy interns in and having them gain credits for interning and learning alongside trained therapists
Access
Expanded Access is known as ‘compassionate use’, a program by the FDA that allows people to receive a treatment that is still in trials
In order to administer the therapy you are required to get a DEA schedule 1 license
“If there’s one thing that changes public perspective on psychedelic therapy, its individual stories of people who have been healed, transformed by or positively or even negatively affected by them in some way” – Brad
They have published many studies of the trials
The most recent was the Boulder study, 76% of people didn’t have PTSD a year after MDMA assisted therapy
Insurance won’t cover expanded access, it will have to pass Phase 3 trials until insurance can be used in MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy
The MDMA is a very small cost (fraction) of the total cost, it’s the hours on hours of psychotherapy that cost so much
But the cost of one MDMA Therapy Session process is much cheaper than a lifetime of pharmaceutical drugs and therapy sessions to heal PTSD
Argument
Joe says he hears this strange argument that people say “giving soldiers MDMA just makes war easier”
Brad says it’s not about putting these people back into war, it’s about healing the retired veterans to help them adapt back into their everyday life
“MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy is going to make them a better lover not a better fighter” – Brad
“If there’s one commonality in psychedelic experiences, its that things are connected.” – Brad
Compass Pathways
Joe mentions that people are scared to see a business come in that’s acting like a normal pharmaceutical company
MAPS is not tied at all with Compass Pathways
Out of the top two things Americans are mad about, at least one of them is the Pharmaceutical Industry
Finally, for-profit companies are interested in advancing these medicines (MDMA)
The only reason for-profit companies haven’t gotten involved before was because there wasn’t a promise on their investment
Capitalism has a tendency to put profit first
“Money can be used for good as well as evil” – Brad
MAPS has raised over 70 billion dollars all from donations
Compass owns its own safety data
Part of the goal of a patent is to protect the investment
Zendo Project
MAPS Psychedelic Harm Reduction and Peer Support resource
Brad Burge is Director of Strategic Communications at the non-profit Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS). Brad earned his B.A. in Communication and Psychology from Stanford University in 2005 and his M.A. in Communication from the University of California, San Diego in 2009. He began working with MAPS in 2009, where he engages daily with journalists and media producers around the world to enhance public knowledge about psychedelic research, while also helping develop and evolve MAPS’ brand and outreach strategy. Brad is passionate about finding healthier, more effective, and more compassionate ways for humans to work with the pharmaceutical and digital communications technologies of the 21st century. When he’s not plugged in, you’ll find him in the mountains, carrying a backpack, somewhere down a long trail.
In this episode, hosts Joe and Kyle sit down and engage in conversation together, covering topics such as Kyle’s capstone project, Trauma and Breath: A Clinical Approach to Trauma Resolution Utilizing Breathwork, current events, upcoming plans and the hurdles as a Psychedelic education and information company in a space of both ethical and unethical findings.
3 Key Points
Kyle will be soon finishing his capstone project, Trauma and Breath: A Clinical Approach to Trauma Resolution Utilizing Breathwork.
The project is on the clinical application of Breathwork Therapy. The goal will be to use an Integrative Breathwork Therapy model that can be used adjunct to Psychedelic Therapy.
Joe and Kyle find out about a lot of things that are potentially harmful in the psychedelic world. They are “journalists”, but without money for legal defense. It’s a difficult time, where a lot of unethical stuff is happening around psychedelics, and Joe and Kyle feel responsible for the safety of the community.
Kyle’s been doing an internship a few days a week and has been doing undergraduate student counselling
He’s been working on his capstone project that has consumed a ton of his time and energy
He wants to thank Elizabeth Gibson and Alan Davis who have been reviewing his capstone project for him
Breathwork Therapy Capstone
Writing the capstone in the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program means it needed to have clinical applications
Kyle went to the MDMA Training in 2016, and he talked to Michael Mithoefer, who told him that if he wants to get involved, to figure out something that can be an adjunct to psychedelic therapy
Kyle thought that he could use an Integrative Breathwork Therapy model that could then be used adjunct to Psychedelic Therapy
Styles of Breathing
A deep, slow belly breath can be very activating to the parasympathetic nervous system that calms the body down
A fast, intense breath can be more active and can bring out traumas
The Phases
Phase 1: Grounding and Emotional Regulation (slow, deep breath, the therapeutic alliance)
They screen for people that have had a traumatic experience, spiritual emergence or psychosis in the last 6 months so they know where to start with a patient
They use a capscore (a test that looks at the severity of someone’s PTSD) to determine where to start in therapy
Joe mentions that it would be beneficial to see what level of capscore a patient responds positively or negatively to a Breathwork session
Phase 2: Using Breathwork in a somatic processing phase
Stage 1: Somatic experiencing (helping people breathe into the sensations in the body)
The body has a ‘secret language’, of how our body holds onto trauma
Turning inward and being more in touch with inner sensations (tightness, heat, etc)
Stage 2: A more activating of “blockages” by intensifying or speeding up the breath
Phase 3: Outside of the clinical scope, placing someone in a full group, 3 hour Breathwork that might bring up collective traumas or spiritual experiences
The goal would be to get people through therapy to get them to the larger group process, create community and form social connections
It needs to start with the clinical space, one-on-one to generate trust. Once they have that trust and confidence, they can go out and explore the more transpersonal and spiritual aspect of themselves
Bandwidth in Communication
We have modems, cable, fiber optics, 3g, 4g, 5g cell networks, etc.
Video communication, phone conversation is great, but it’s 2D
When its in person, depth of field kicks in, you’re able to see body language and intonation
Living in a tribe of 150 people and creating community, we’d be using our full bandwidth, bringing the human organism back to its full capacity
“Therapists get taught clinical practices, but they aren’t taught about theory and practice of trauma” – Joe
Joe says its not a bad thing, but there are risks by not having an in person facilitator
“We find out about a lot of things that are potentially harmful in the psychedelic world, our relationship to coming out about that stuff is tricky. Yes, we are “journalists”, but without money for legal defense.” – Joe
Joe says he feels responsibility for safety in the community
Kyle says the psychedelic community sometimes feels like the wild west due to the lack of education. “When unethical stuff arises, what is our responsibility?” – Kyle
“We are trying to understand our future, and not put ourselves in a bad place, all while keeping you all safe and continuing to serve the community” – Joe
Joe and Kyle will be guiding 2 Breathwork workshops
They are excited to connect and meet people
Kyle and Joe will be going to another conference in March
The title of the conference is “Can Exceptional Experiences Save Humans, from Ecological Crisis”
“If were going to survive on earth, we’ve got to be a little more global. We are all linked to this spaceship that we are traveling through space on, and there are limited resources on this thing. We are answering a lot of these questions through psychedelics” – Joe
About Kyle
Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”
Kyle is currently pursuing his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.
About Joe
Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.
In this episode, Kyle and Joe host Rebecca Ann Hill and David Jay Brown, Authors of the book, Women of Visionary Art. The book showcases the work and inspiration of female artists such as Josephine Wall, Allison Grey, Amanda Sage, Martina Hoffman, Carolyn Mary Kleefeld and many others.
3 Key Points:
Rebecca Ann Hill and David Jay Brown are co-authors of the book, Women of Visionary Art, which includes discussions with 18 female artists.
The book and the episode are an exploration of the role that dreaming, psychedelic experiences, and mystical visions play in visionary art.
There is a strong need for a balancing of masculine and feminine energies. Females tend to be more nurturing and more cooperative, and it’s exactly the factors that are missing in our current world and are causing problems of greed.
David’s background is in Psychobiology, the interface between psychology and biology
He spent 10-15 years working in neuroscience and research labs
His interest in Neuroscience came from his experience as a teenager, experimenting with psychedelics
He wrote his first book, The Science of Psychedelics, about 10 years ago
David mentions that the psychedelic renaissance has allowed him to write openly about psychedelic topics that he’s been preparing his whole life researching for
About Rebecca
aka Molly Moon Sparkles
She has a huge creative drive
She is currently studying psychology and is playing in the art program
She is fascinated by entheogens, plant medicines and psychedelic compounds
She is a painter and is working on the Molly Moon Magick Series that focuses on the divine feminine
David was so fascinated with the visions he would see on psychedelics and wished that he had the talent to portray it through artwork, and then he began to see artists bring these visions to life
He also saw a lot of gender inequality, that there were more men than women in the visionary art space
It urged him to highlight the under recognized women in visionary art
Rebecca was experimenting with other realms with plant medicines and psychedelic compounds
She says her consciousness was so drastically different from any other time in her life, and she started painting her psychedelic experiences
This led her to begin building community with other artists who shared the same ‘vision’ as her
She said that the psychedelic experience has so much feminine nature to it that wasn’t being voiced
“We are going through a serious ecological crisis right now and the teachings behind the psychedelic experience is to heal the collective and help climate change” – Rebecca
There is an uprising of feminism with the “Me Too” movement, women in congress, women’s marches
Our species has been so dominated by men and we need the nurturing and caring aspects of the feminine perspective
Surprising Aspects of the Women
The most surprising aspect is how much in common the women had
David says it was beautiful how well each artist was connected to each other through their stories
Laura Holden is completely self taught
There were two women from the book that had never touched a psychedelic substance
They were inspired through dreams and daydreams
The psychedelic experience not only inspires the artwork, but it creates a new way of viewing artwork
Kyle mentions that he always wished he could record his dreams
Joe says he has been seeing research around capturing visual or imagined imagery
Discovering the Artists
David discovered most of the artists that he had not previously known through the community Rebecca had been a part of as visionary artists
COSM and Entheon
August 3rd, Rebecca and David are giving a presentation as COSM in New York
Entheon, the Sanctuary for Visual art may be open by them
Entheon will have workshops, painting classes, rooms to stay in, full moon ceremonies, etc.
It will be an art sanctuary, a church with a spiritual and psychedelic essence
Visionary art is getting into museums and becoming a recognized art form
The Desperate Need for Balance
Terrence McKenna told David that early on in human civilization, men didn’t understand the role that sex had in creating babies
The power of reproduction was within women and sex was something else
Once men began thinking that they were responsible for the generation of life, they starting saying its “my baby” its “my wife” instead of ‘our’ baby or the community’s baby. It kept developing into “my child” into “my country”, “MY”.
Then people started using less psychedelics and started consuming more alcohol and now everything is an over exaggerated male dominance
“Females tend to be more nurturing and more cooperative, and it’s exactly the factors that are missing in our current world and are causing problems of greed. It could be balanced and harmonized with more feminine energy.” – David
There is a crucial imbalance from male and female in history alone
But more than an imbalance between just males and females, it’s about an imbalance of masculine and feminine energies
Each of us, male and females have both a masculine and feminine energy
We can see the masculine and feminine imbalance in the world and our planet right now. We don’t need to shift to a goddess worshiping planet, but we just need to be back in balance and bring more feminine energy of nurturing and compassion and caring and healing
Penny (an artist highlighted in the book) mentions about Sandos giving LSD to researchers who gave it to artists
Getting Involved
“If you want to get involved in painting, dancing, making jewelry, clothing, gardening, don’t wait. Do it. If you are true to yourself and your own inner visions, you will succeed” – Rebecca
One thing all artists have in common is fear and insecurity, so you can’t let it hinder you from beginning
Final Thoughts
Artists like Android Jones are doing visionary artwork in virtual reality mediums
David thinks visionary artwork will become only even more interactive and immersive spaces
We need to find a more yin-yang balance between masculine and feminine
Rebecca Ann Hill (AKA Molly Moon Sparkle), is a visual artist with a wide range of experience in different creative mediums. She is the co-author and illustrator of “Ecstatic Love, Lost Dreams & Mystic Visions”, as well as “Women of Visionary Art.” Primarily a painter, she is creating a new series entitled “Molly Moon Magick,” and her other projects include dancing with “Gold Town Burlesque,” writing a blog -“Go Ask Molly”- and working on a new book about her spiritual awakening.
About David
David Jay Brown is the author of Dreaming Wide Awake: Lucid Dreaming, Shamanic Healing and Psychedelics, and The New Science of Psychedelics: At the Nexus of Culture, Consciousness, and Spirituality. He is also the coauthor of five other bestselling volumes of interviews with leading-edge thinkers, Mavericks of the Mind, Voices from the Edge, Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse, Mavericks of Medicine, Frontiers of Psychedelic Consciousness, and of Women of Visionary Art. Additionally, Brown is the author of two science fiction novels,Brainchild and Virus, and he is the coauthor of the health science book Detox with Oral Chelation. Brown holds a master’s degree in psychobiology from New York University, and was responsible for the California-based research in two of British biologist Rupert Sheldrake’s books on unexplained phenomena in science: Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home and The Sense of Being Stared At. His work has appeared in numerous magazines, including Wired, Discover, and Scientific American, and he was the Senior Editor of the special edition, themed MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) Bulletins from 2007 to 2012. In 2011, 2012, and 2013 Brown was voted “Best Writer” in the annual Good Times and Santa Cruz Weekly’s “Best of Santa Cruz” polls, and his news stories have been picked up by The Huffington Post and CBS News.
In this episode, hosts Kyle and Joe interview Balázs Szigeti, PhD and David Erritzoe, PhD to discuss the self-blinded microdosing study in collaboration with the Imperial College London.
In this episode, they explore the self-blinding study and it’s pros and limitations, with the aim to collect data on microdosing and its possible benefits.
**Update as of 1/22/2018 – The plant psychedelic study extension was approved, together with the extension that allows for volumetric dosing.
3 Key Points:
Microdosing (LSD) has the least amount of research so far among research on drugs like Psilocybin, MDMA and Ketamine.
This microdosing study includes a procedure on how self-experimenters can implement placebo control. This will help determine whether microdosers feel benefits due to the placebo effect or because of the pharmacological action of the microdose.
Just because microdosing may have a placebo effect (the way a user feels while taking it) it may actually have benefits that one cannot necessarily ‘feel’ (users may become more creative, have better problem-solving skills, etc).
Balazs attended his undergrad in the UK at Imperial College and studied Theoretical Physics
He moved to Scotland to get his Ph.D. in Computational Neuroscience
He became interested in psychedelics via the Global Drug Survey
He was doing MDMA research and then the microdosing project came to him
About David
He is a medical doctor and works in clinical psychology doing research
He does brain imaging and his background has been in addiction, depression and schizophrenia
He did his postdoc at Imperial and worked with Robert Carhart Harris
He worked in a clinical trial working with people of treatment-resistant depression
He is currently working on an online survey for microdosing
Psychedelic Medicine
MDMA for PTSD is the most advanced in terms of available scientific evidence for psychedelic medicine
There is already a big gap in psilocybin vs MDMA for treatment
There isn’t much research on microdosing yet
In order to do research on microdosing, you’d have to bring in a ‘patient’ and have them in the lab for many hours at a time, very frequently, and it’s not practical
The Microdosing Study
In this microdosing study, they are testing cognitive function
The user will have to fill out a questionnaire throughout the duration of the microdose
There were a lot of things, very political for the downfall of psychedelic science
When the double-blind method was introduced for science, it used methods that would have compromised the ‘setting’ of taking psychedelics
There is a manual that the users have to follow for the setup process
Its a semi-randomized process where they take the microdose over 4 weeks and it may be either the psychedelic or a placebo
It works on a method of a dose hidden in a capsule assigned to a QR code, where the user doesn’t know what they take until the end of the study
This is a study inviting people that plan to microdose a blotter based psychedelic or plant-based psychedelics.
Its a hands-off study of observation, based on a users own plan on taking the substance
Summary of the Study
The Imperial-Beckley self-blinding microdose study is a new global study on psychedelics microdosing. The study uses a unique ‘self-blinding’ methodology where participants implement their own placebo control.
In the study, voluntary participants microdose on their own initiative, using their own substance, without the study team’s supervision. However, the study team provides a manual that explains step by step how self-experimenters can set up their own placebo control. The placebo control is implemented by placing both microdoses and empty capsules into sealed envelopes, which are then labelled with QR codes and distributed according to a schedule. Participants won’t know whether their capsules contain a microdose or an empty placebo until the end of the study.
The study is run entirely on the internet, therefore microdosers can participate from anywhere in the world, recruitment is now open.
This ‘self-blinding’ design allows the team to investigate whether the purported benefits of microdosing are due to the placebo effect, or the pharmacological action of the psychedelic, which is a critical scientific questions regarding microdosing.
Limitations of the Study
Its half-way between a clinical study and an observational study
They aren’t sending the users the LSD, they are just providing the platform for the users to share their experience on
In this trial, the flaw is that the research team doesn’t know the dose size of the blotter the user takes, it could start as a 100mg, more, less. Its a variable that cannot be controlled
The fix would be to have the LSD sent to the lab, tested for dose size, and then sent back to the user (anonymously), but since it’s illegal it cannot be done
It’s also hard to determine even distribution of a blotter into microdose size
They don’t know if the user is cutting the blotter paper like a pie or in squares
Also, because the drug is being bought on the black market, they wont know if there are adulterants in the drug unless the user tests the drug themselves
David and Balázs also say that based on current findings, most LSD tested is pure LSD, where a drug like MDMA is more common to contain an adulterant
They do have plans to extend the study to include plant based psychedelics and volumetric dosing
What is a Psychedelic Microdose?
Psychedelic microdosing is not the same as Pharmacological microdosing
A microdose in pharmacological context is 1/100th of a dose, where a psychedelic microdose is more like 1/10th of a dose
Is Microdosing Worth it?
People like David Nichols and Ben Sessa think microdosing is pointless
It could be that microdosing is a glorified placebo effect
Most people who are microdosing have had previous experience with psychedelics
People are doing it because they believe there is a benefit that comes from it
The placebo control is the most important component of this self-blinded method
People say that microdosing stimulates their creativity, but creativity is hard to measure
One thing they could measure is personality through a personality assessment
One thing that has been studied is an increase in the ‘Openness’ personality trait after psychedelic use
The flaw is that a personality test is a person answering questions about themselves
Current Findings
The benefit of this study is it doesn’t take people out of their natural, personal setting
Based on the feedback already received, the users are getting their guess right only half of the time, on whether it is the microdose or the placebo
Just because microdosing may have a placebo effect (the way they feel while taking it) it may actually have benefits (users may be more creative, have better problem-solving skills, etc).
Homeopathy is widely believed to be a placebo effect in the scientific community, but the homeopathy is continuing to grow
Dr. Balazs Szigeti has studied theoretical physics at Imperial College, but turned towards neuroscience for his PhD studies at the University of Edinburgh. His main work is about the behavioural neuroscience of invertebrates, but he has a diverse scientific portfolio that includes computational neuroscience and driving forward the OpenWorm open science initiative. Balazs is also the editor of the Dose of Science blog that is published in collaboration with the Drugreporter website. Dose of Science discusses and critically assesses scientific studies about recreational drugs. Recently Balazs has started a collaboration with the Global Drug Survey to quantitatively compare the dose of recreational users of various drugs with the scientific literature.
About David Erritzoe, PhD
Dr. David Erritzoe is qualified as a medical doctor from Copenhagen University Medical School and currently holds an Academic Clinical Lectureship in Psychiatry at Imperial College London. Alongside his clinical training in medicine/psychiatry, David has been involved in psychopharmacological research, using brain-imaging techniques such as PET and MRI. He has conducted post-doc imaging research in the neurobiology of addictions and major depression. Together with Prof Nutt and Dr Carhart-Harris he is also investigating the neurobiology and therapeutic potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics.
In this episode, Joe interviews Nathan Sepeda, a Research Coordinator at Johns Hopkins. Joe and Nathan cover topics on 5-MEO-DMT research and survey studies, the difference between synthetic and toad sourced 5-MEO-DMT, the sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad, and the benefits of a proper facilitator.
3 Key Points:
5-MEO-DMT is starting to gain traction in the research world. The conversation continues on whether the synthetic 5-MEO-DMT experience is any different from a 5-MEO-DMT experience sourced from the toad venom.
As the popularity of 5-MEO-DMT increases, concerns about the wellbeing and sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad also increases.
Proper facilitation has been shown to affect a person’s experience on a substance like 5-MEO-DMT. The use of a practitioner, finding the substance from a reputable source, and integration all play a critical role in the user’s experience.
Joe found out about Nathan Sepeda and the work being done on 5-MEO-DMT after Johns Hopkins released a poster on 5-MEO-DMT
Alan Davis put together a survey about people’s 5-MEO-DMT experiences
Half of the use was recreational, and then the other half of survey participants used more of a therapeutic approach set and setting including a sitter and integration
The study found that the more structured the 5-MEO-DMT experience was around set and setting, the more often participants reported a more mystical experience as well as a lower likelihood of having a difficult experience
The survey only looked at synthetic 5-MEO-DMT
Using 5-MEO-DMT from a toad also runs the risk of the other toad venom constituents
Joe said the first time he heard about data on 5-MEO-DMT was at the Oakland Psychedelic Science Conference in 2017
Stan Grof had a keynote saying that 5-MEO-DMT was the future of psychiatry
Toad Conservation
The Bufo Alvarius toad’s population is increasingly declining
Joe says he knows someone who lives on the Mexican border in the Sonoran desert, and he would have toads jump into his house all the time
He doesn’t even see them anymore
Joe also mentions the toads flocking to the UV street lights, and people scooping them up or even running them over
“How do we do less harm to living things and treat our environment better?” – Joe
Nathan’s Role at Hopkins
Nathan is the Research Coordinator of Psychedelic Studies at Johns Hopkins
He works as an Assistant Facilitator (sitter) for the psychoactive drug sessions
He is involved in Psilocybin studies (currently the depression study)
He says he is grateful to be a part of the research, seeing people change in a matter of days from the help of the substances
Nathan has a background in Psychology and Neuroscience
Mary Cosimano is the primary facilitator for all of the studies at Johns Hopkins
His training consisted of mock sessions, ways to ask/answer questions, and overall hold the space
A lot of people will describe their experience being the most spiritual experience of their life
Joe asks about upset stomach with synthetic psilocybin
Nathan responds saying they ask patients to eat a light breakfast, but he never really sees upset stomach with synthetic psilocybin
Proper Facilitation
The use of a practitioner and finding the substance from a reputable source are the two biggest factors in having a great experience, along with integration
Nathan says that these findings are preliminary but they are a great start to data on the substance and its use
Joe says he is cautious about the religious affiliation people prescribe to their experience with these substances
It can get out of hand, there are “shamans” that taze people or throw buckets of cold water on their patients when they are on the substance
Waterboarding, sexual assault, all of these things speak to the value of screening practitioners
Joe has heard about a facilitator using an extremely high amount of 5-MEO-DMT on his patients, far above the effective dose
Joe mentions a story about a “shaman” who was to facilitate a session. The participant thought they were going to do standard DMT, and the shaman gave them 5-MEO-DMT instead (without the users consent)
Joe suggests that just because you know a reputable source for a substance, doesn’t mean they are a good facilitator
Nathan Sepeda is an assistant facilitator (or guide) for psychoactive drug sessions and research coordinator for the Johns Hopkins Psychedelic Research Unit. Nathan earned an undergraduate degree from the University of Minnesota studying psychology and neuroscience. His interests in addiction and mood disorders, in combination with the promising research with psychedelics, have led Nathan to Dr. Roland Griffiths’ lab. Nathan is involved in a number of projects investigating the effects of various psychedelic substances, including psilocybin, salvinorin-A, and 5-MeO-DMT.
In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Jenifer Talley, Psychologist and Assistant Director at the Center for Optimal Living that specializes in harm reduction psychotherapy. Topics include the current stigma of substance use and the benefits of using a harm reduction approach.
3 Key Points:
Dr. Jenifer Talley is a Psychologist at the Center for Optimal Living who practices harm reduction with her psychotherapy clients.
Substance misuse is typically a symptom of a bigger issue. Jenifer uses integrative harm reduction psychotherapy, a model developed by Dr. Andrew Tatarsky that is organized around 7 Therapeutic Tasks to help build safe relationships with her clients in adjusting their relationships with drugs and alcohol and other behaviors.
There is a stigma on substance use, and shifting away from the current model into a harm reduction framework could help users be more receptive to change and healing.
Jenifer grew up outside of DC and moved up to the New York area for her internship and was working with female survivors of trauma and substance use at St. Luke’s Hospital.
Dr. Tatarsky founded the Center for Optimal Living in 2011 and she joined the team when they opened and is now the Assistant Director.
The Center for Optimal Living is known best for their clinical work and trainings focused on substance use and harm reduction.
Substance Misuse
Jenifer says that ‘abstinence only’ or ‘abstinence first’ approach doesn’t really work
It’s all about determining the relationship the patients want to have with a substance
Abstinence can be ineffective at engaging people who may not be ready to embrace abstinence as their goal. It also supports people’s autonomy and right to make decisions about what relationship they wish to have with drugs and alcohol.
People really struggle with vulnerability and trauma is a player as to why someone wants to use a substance
“Substance use is a symptom of a bigger issue” – Jenifer
It’s unfair to ask someone to change without asking the whole system to change
7 Therapeutic Tasks
The Therapeutic Alliance – Letting the client know they can trust them
Sets the stage for treatment in a way that is non-judgmental, compassionate and personalized. Emphasizing the goals that clients wish to work on vs. having my own agenda.
The Therapeutic Relationship Heals – Jenifer says they are sensitive about creating a safe therapeutic relationship with clients
Enhancing Self Management Skills – How to better help with coping skills, shifting how people relate to cravings
“What’s driving my urge to go for a drink right now?”
Loneliness, boredom, and sadness are reasons for craving
Assessment as Treatment – What was the craving, how did they respond to that craving, how did they give in to the craving, how did they feel afterward
When Friday night rolls around, can the client picture the guilt and shame of Monday morning in that moment?
Embracing Ambivalence – The client might have different parts of themselves, one part of them may want to really work on healing and change, and the other part of them might never want to change
Goal Setting – helping clients think through bigger lifestyle changes they want to make, such as diet, self-care activities, and specific substance use related goals
Personalized Plan for Change – asking people to really evaluate their use and create a realistic and individualized plan for meeting their goals
Substance Use Stigma
How do we not be judgmental about someone’s substance use, and care about their safety?
Jenifer says she feels very protective about people she works with, and is very sensitive to her clients because of the shame about their drug use
Clients Under the Influence
Jenifer asks herself “does this person need medical attention right now?”
She had a client that came in intoxicated but they were able to have a conversation still
But she didn’t let him go home because of the fact that he drank
She gave him food and water and waited until he was able to get home safely
She thought about it from a compassionate approach and thought “what is that telling us about his use?” and the next time the client came in they said their drinking was hardly manageable
Harm Reduction Model
There is a gap in training as clinicians as providers
In the US specifically, the 12 step process and abstinence are used which are a part of the disease model
There is a lot of stigma and shame in calling someone an “addict.”
The fear about the harm reduction model is that it is thought to lead to decriminalization
The other issue is that the harm reduction model is thought to not include abstinence
Jenifer says it does include abstinence, she just doesn’t lead with the abstinence approach
Kyle mentions that a common thought for clinicians is “How do I incorporate a hard reduction approach without condoning drug use?”
Jenifer says the drug use is happening already
The first step is noticing your own biases first, and then getting informed about the model
The training goes into the history and why there needs to be a paradigm shift in looking at addiction
The second and third days really go into the 7 Therapeutic Tasks
Because there is more funding, they are going to offer regional trainings in Florida and will also train the staff at the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene in NYC.
The idea of harm reduction might be less appealing to parents, so they really focus on educating parents and teens on harm reduction versus strict abstinence
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Dr. Jenifer Talley
As the Assistant Director of The Center for Optimal Living, Jenifer coordinates clinical services and training activities along with providing individual psychotherapy.Together with Dr. Andrew Tatarsky, she started the first-ever Harm Reduction Psychotherapy Certificate Program. In her clinical work at The Center for Optimal Living, she provides individual psychotherapy using an integrative harm reduction framework where the focus is on developing a collaborative and compassionate relationship with my clients to promote positive change.
In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down with Renn Butler, who graduated from the second ever class of Holotropic Breathwork in 1989. During the show, they discuss topics on Breathwork, Stan Grof practices, archetypal astrology and the astrological landscape we are entering in 2019.
3 Key Points:
Renn Butler is an Archetypal and Holotropic Astrologer since the 70’s who uses astrology in his Breathwork practice.
Stan Grof’s Internalized Protocol includes lying down with eye shades and headphones with a sober sitter. A sober sitter is more common in therapeutic settings versus the shamanistic group settings, and Renn believes there is more benefit to a sober sitter in a personal session than a group session.
We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019. Neptune represents our soul’s yearning to reawaken to the universal field of consciousness and Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches, so we are entering into a time of opportunity for self exploration and awakening.
Renn became interested in Stan Grof’s work through many conversations with Richard Tarnas in 1980, and then participated in a Grof month long session with guests like Gwen Frishkoff
He spent much time in Esalon
He remembers walking through the hallways where the mandalas from breathwork sessions were hung
He has been an Archetypal/Holotropic Astrologer since the 70’s
Archetypal Astrology
Stan Grof looked at ways to determine the content of people’s experiences in assisted psychotherapy
Through his friendship with Richard Tarnas, he found that people’s planetary alignments or ‘transits’ corresponded in a remarkable way with their experience in a session
“The purpose of astrology is to predict the meaning behind events rather than trying to determine the specific concrete forms they take.” – Renn
Carl Jung coined the term archetype based on the Greek word “arche”, which means ‘the forms’
It’s the psychological meaning behind events
Richard learned astrology by looking at his sessions and the content of the sessions and their correlation with astrological transits
Based on his findings, he was able to predict the best days to do sessions
A Powerful Breathwork Session
Renn had Kundalini Experiences happening for 4 years
Transiting Pluto was conjoining his natal Neptune
Pluto compels into being whatever archetypes it aligns with
Neptune represents divine consciousness
He did a 5 hour breathwork session that caused him to re-live aspects of toxic womb (disturbances of intrauterine life)
Pluto can help clear out disturbances of the psyche
At the end of the session, he felt way more cleared out than he did before
It resolved his Kundalini episode that he was in for the last few years
Kundalini Awakenings
Some describe it as energy moving up the spine or chakra
It means to clear out leftover traumatic baggage in the psyche
People can have emotional outbursts and start crying or screaming as they discharge the energy
Afterward, they will care what happens to the ecosystem and around them and want to be a part of the solution
Spiritual Emergence and Psychosis
Joe asks when to tell the difference between knowing if someone is going through a Spiritual Emergence or needs hospitalization
Renn responds saying you need to look for if the person is taking responsibility for their healing versus projecting.
Projecting would be someone saying “You guys are trying to poison me” versus taking responsibility and saying “I’m feeling toxic feelings inside myself”
Richard’s correlation of the outer planets Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto with Grof’s 4 perinatal matrices shows the process of revolutionizing astrology
Carl Jung would do chart work before seeing all of his patients
He would try to find transits with Jupiter, Uranus, Venus, etc
There are no astrological alignments that would be too dangerous to do journey-work during
But Renn says it’s like putting up the lightning rod during certain transits during breathwork
“Lie back and let the mother give birth to you” – Renn
Renn says it’s safer if you are on your back during journey work versus walking around and facing gravity and falling or hurting yourself
Grof Internalized Protocol
One patient at a time (sitter, breather team) to lie down, wear eye shades, and listen to music through headphones
The sitter agrees not to judge or direct the process or abandon the process
You can expect miracles with this type of protocol
You can’t face this material by yourself, you really need people you trust, who are sober and not doing a substance, one person at a time
Renn says the ayahuasca revolution has brought a lot of greatness to the western world, but the shamanic traditions usually meant that the shaman drinks with the clients to have a magical insight into the users psyche
Sitter Role
In a therapeutic framework, the sitter is sober and lets the client do all of the work, and the sitter is there to assist, but not to interfere with the process
Stan describes it as a way to maximize the benefits and minimize the risks
Renn brings up an example of 3 people doing mushrooms together
One person might be feeling aggressive, and another person might feel like a baby wanting to be held
The aggressive person won’t want to be doing any cuddling
One person does the catalyst, and the other 2 support them, and then the next time they rotate
Renn thinks one deep session is more beneficial than 3 ‘half-assed’ sessions
Interruptions During Sessions
Some people have a fear that their experience may interrupt another person’s experience
Renn says that if someone is laughing or screaming or crying that he understands it is just a part of the universe of the way things just are
He is shocked to hear stories about people having a loud experience getting taken out away from the rest of the group and told to contain themselves
Kyle mentions that sounds usually aren’t a bother, and the loud music helps
But it’s talking, English words that bring people out of a session
People can have great ayahuasca ceremonies, and then they think that ayahuasca is the best psychedelic out there
Renn says that all psychedelics are great tools
But he encourages people to try breathwork and this solo session style healing
Joe says he dreams of a place where shamanism takes a look at the solo process and maybe not always the group process, that all cultures can combine our knowledge for the best result
2019
We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019, 90 degrees between Jupiter and Neptune
Neptune represents our soul’s yearning to reawaken to the larger world’s soul, to the universal field of consciousness
Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches
This presents a large opportunity for self exploration, with a feeling of deeper cosmic safety
“It seems like our psyche’s wait until things are safe for the deepest material to surface.” – Renn
Renn says it’s good to focus on death so that we can constantly keep our priorities straight
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Renn
Following a B.A. in English and Religious Studies from the University of Alberta, Renn Butler lived at the Esalen Institute in California for 2½ years where he became deeply immersed in the transpersonal psychology of Stanislav Grof and the emerging archetypal astrology of Richard Tarnas. He completed training as a Holotropic Breathwork facilitator with Stan and Christina Grof in 1989 and has facilitated many workshops in Victoria, Canada. His research includes over three decades of archetypal-astrology consultations and Holotropic Breathwork workshops, and thirty-five years of Jungian-Grofian dreamwork.
In this unique episode, Joe brings Tom Hatsis and Dr. Jerry Brown together for a psychedelic debate. They go back in forth in conversation on whether there was psychedelic use in medieval or ancient Christianity and if so, was there a secret tradition of including art of mushrooms or psychedelic substances in cathedrals and castles.
3 Key Points:
Jerry Brown makes the claim that there is evidence of visionary plants in Christianity and the life of Jesus found in medieval art and biblical scripture.
Tom Hatsis makes the claim that Christianity is not hiding a giant secret inside the biblical texts about the true hallucinogen at the root of the religion being an Amanita Muscaria.
Jerry and Tom debate back and forth, pulling from art and textual evidence (and lack thereof) to support or deny the claim that Psychedelic Mushrooms are the root of Christian religion.
Anthropologist, Author and Activist
Served as the Prof of Anthropology at FIU in Miami
He designed and taught a course on hallucinogens and culture
He is the Co-Author of Sacred Plants and the Gnostic Church: Speculations on Entheogen use in Early Christian Ritual The Psychedelic Gospels: The Secret History of Hallucinogens in Christianity
Tom Hatsis
Author, Public Speaker, Roller Derby Player and Potion Maker
He is the Author of three books in Psychedelia;
The Witches Ointment: the Secret History of Psychedelic Magic
Psychedelic Mystery Traditions; Spirit Plants, Magical Practices and Psychedelic States Microdosing Magic: A Psychedelic Spellbook
Partnered with event organizer and short film maker, Eden Woodruff, who runs Psanctum Psychedelia in Portland in the process of winning the Guinness Book of World Record in Magic
Intro
The debate is around the early Christian use of psychedelics and mushrooms in Christian art
The conversation is on the validity on whether or not psychedelics were used in early Christianity
Dr. Jerry Brown on Psychedelics in Christianity
The Miracle of Marsh Chapel – a double-blind experiment conducted by Walter Pahnky in 1962 where 20 students were divided into two groups, half received niacin and the other half received psilocybin
9 out of 10 who took psilocybin had a profound psychedelic experience
Brown explains that this is an important part in the entire history of psychedelics
After discovering the Amanita Muscaria mushroom (confirmed by Paul Stamets) in a 15th Century Church in Scotland, he realized that there were many entheogenic images in Christian art
He says that most church historians do not have training in mycology to recognize entheogens and mushrooms
He brings up an image of Adam and Eve standing next to a large Amanita Muscaria mushroom
He went to a Parish Church and saw an image of Jesus entering Jerusalem on a Donkey, and one of the youths welcoming Jesus is holding a long mushroom cap
He went to churches in England, Germany and France
In the drawing of Genesis, he saw God creating plants (psilocybin mushrooms)
“When you go back beyond the 3rd century, there are no visual images or Christian art due to poverty and persecution” – Jerry
Jerry reads a passage,
“Jesus said to his disciples, “compare me to someone and tell me who I am like” Thomas said to him, “Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like.” Jesus said “I am not your master, because you have drunk you have become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. He who will drink from my mouth will become like me, I shall become like he, and the things that are hidden, should be revealed to him.”
He interprets the passage as a reference to drinking a psychoactive mushroom substance
Jerry goes on to explain that Jesus realized his feeling of eternal life through the use of psychoactive entheogens
He says that this is not a means of dismissing Christianity, but instead to reintroduce Christianity with its original roots
Tom Hatsis on Psychedelics in Christianity
Tom says that Jerry makes a lot of assertions, but does not present any evidence. He talks about art, but not anything in scripture
Tom is curious why the only artwork that Jerry brings his assertions about mushrooms are from a time where we can’t ask them about it
Tom brings up Julie and Jerry’s book and that the first chapter has nothing to do with Christian History at all
Tom uses an example of stone mushrooms. Someone doing a cross cultural analysis, might agree that they are mushrooms based on the other findings of cannabis and opioids
But, as a historian, Tom looks for evidence and in this case, there are eye witness accounts of its use
He brings up the example, the infamous plaincourault fresco of Adam and Eve at the tree of good and evil with the forbidden fruit
Using this one example, he wants to prove how critical historical methodology is used to prove unsubstantiated claims on Christian art as wrong
The paradise tree is a mix of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a symbol of Christ’s victory over Adam’s transgression. In the play, it was tradition to place small Eucharist wafers on the tree branches so that’s what the white dots are on the tree branches
The tree’s shape is not a mushroom cap, it is a parasol of victory
Jerry’s Rebuttle
Jerry says that the absence of evidence, is not equal, or proof of evidence of absence (just because it’s not written in text, doesn’t mean that its not there in the art)
Jerry’s issue with the fresco is that “The Fall” is a New Testament creation, not all the way back in Genesis
He says that on their website, they do not ‘alter’ the image, they ‘enhance’ it
He says that Tom claims the fruit doesn’t matter, but the fruit does matter (it could be a psychedelic mushroom)
He touches on the skeletal appearance of Eve and the meaning of renewal of life
Jerry thinks this image is the beginning of the religious experience and symbolism that the soul is immortal and will continue to exist after death
He says the serpent is not a depiction of evil entering Eden, but instead a source of knowledge and a spiritual guide to the feminine to help bring man into higher awareness
Tom’s Rebuttle
Tom says he didn’t hear any evidence from Jerry, he heard arguments to authority
He says that Jerry uses anthropology to uncover history, and opinions of art historians, but medieval historians agree that the mushroom is not present in Christian art
He also says he did agree with Jerry about the mushroom in art, but that was last year and he has proven himself wrong and that the mushroom caps are parasols of victory
Jerry says that Amanita Muscaria was in the Soma, but Tom says cannabis was, and mushrooms were not Chris Bennett’s book on Soma
There is zero evidence for mushroom art during medieval times
In Jerry’s book, he writes about the Basilica di Aquilea, saying that they are Amanita Muscaria, but Tom says they are not that type of mushroom
Tom also says that in the play depicted in the plaincourault, that the script literally says the wafers are hung on the tree, and that the little white dots are not the dots from an Amanita Muscaria
Jerry’s Closing Remarks
He says that this isn’t just cultural analysis, this is about fieldwork and looking at how native people view this artwork
The problem he has with Tom and Church historians is that it is not taking evidence from Ethnobotanists
Jerry says he believes that there is a long tradition of entheogenic mushrooms in Christian art and would like this debate to continue
Tom’s Closing Remarks
Tom says he still isn’t hearing evidence, he is only hearing assertions and argument to authority and eminent scholars
Tom says that Genesis doesn’t matter in the plaincourault, because we know that it’s about the play
He has multiple articles debunking these images on his website
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Jerry
Jerry B. Brown, Ph.D., is an anthropologist, author and activist. From 1972-2014, he served as Founding Professor of Anthropology at Florida International University in Miami, where he designed and taught a course on “Hallucinogens and Culture.” The course examines the use of psychoactive plants by tribal and classical cultures, including Ancient India and Greece, and by and discusses the discoveries of the modern mind-explorers, the “psychonauts of the twentieth century.”
About Tom
Thomas Hatsis is an author, lecturer, and historian of witchcraft, magic, Western religions, contemporary psychedelia, entheogens, and medieval pharmacopeia. In his spare time he visits rare archives, slings elixirs, and coaches roller derby.
In this episode, Joe interviews Duncan Autrey, a conflict transformation catalyst and educator. He runs a podcast, Fractal Friends, that covers topics of self-similarity across our diversity. During their conversation, Joe and Duncan discuss ways of resolving conflict in our relationships and society.
3 Key Points:
Duncan Autrey is a conflict transformation educator, working for peace and cultural change.
Conflict happens when one person wants to be heard so much that they stop listening to the other side. It is a product of living in a diverse world.
We have more rights than we think we do when facing law enforcement.
Conflict is a product of living in a diverse world
Conflict resolution is about how to get different perspectives working together
Conflict happens when someone is really passionate about their side of the topic
Conflict also happens when one person wants to be heard so much that they stop listening to the other side
The ARC of conversation
A stands for acknowledge
R stands for reflect back
C stands for be curious
Resolving Conflict
Its okay to be certain about your own experiences, but someone might also be certain about their experiences and the key is to find a mutual ground
“How do we understand ecological issues better and work with each other to find how to create better conversation around it?” – Joe
In a conversation of conflict, the other side may be the antidote to your extreme
Interdependent Polarity – each side has something positive and negative, and each side should acknowledge the negative but aim to pull out the positive of the other side
“It’s better to find a way to navigate the question, rather than to answer the question” – Duncan
In a hierarchy of permanence, laws are really low. Laws come and go
3 ways we resolve conflict over time; power, violence and laws
But the interest based model includes everyone and all sides and works through conflict to live in and share the same planet with each other
Impressive Resilience in Humans
“Shifts happen”
People that Duncan works with start thinking to themselves “I’m a good guy facing a bad guy” and the person on the other side of conflict also thinks “I’m a good guy facing a bad guy”
Helping guide the people in conflict to just listen to the other person fully is what starts the shift
Law Enforcement and Conflict
It’s important to recognize the difference between the system and the individuals
Our whole system of television, movies, everything is all feeding into this
There are sociopaths in the world (5% of the population), and they are falling into roles like prison guards and CEO’s
Duncan brings up a story where he was in a car with someone who got pulled over, and the car got completely searched
He had vitamins on him, and the police assumed it was MDMA, so he was arrested and spent 4 days in jail
“This is a place where the people who are on the right side of the law, are being treated like assholes, and where people on the bad side of the law, are on their best behavior” – Duncan
This is a systemic issue, where the society says that you are a good person for doing something good, and are a bad person for doing something bad
But we shouldn’t be defined by what we are ‘caught’ doing, either good or bad
People should be able to hold onto their humanity (not be locked up for life) for something like possession of a drug
“If we’re going to care about our shared humanity and our right for everyone to be here, we have to figure out the path of restoration” – Duncan
“Slavery isn’t okay, unless someone gets convicted of a crime”
Victoria’s Secret has people in prison slavery making lingerie in South Carolina
People have to pay off debt from their incarceration, before they get a license, to get a job, that they have to apply to as a criminal
Society doesn’t make it easy to be human after prison
People in grad school with the same amount of debt, have an education, (usually) a job, and have hope for the future
Rights When Getting Pulled Over
Right to remain silent is real
Right to consent for search – you don’t have to say yes
Law enforcement tries to use the fact that you think you’re guilty and will let the search happen
You can’t be detained without probable cause (4th Amendment)
You can be detained long enough for a traffic citation, but not enough to be caught for another crime
Smoke smell in the car is probable cause, even in s state where it is legal
Joe mentions dash cams so that there can be recordings on both ends, not just one end (the police’s evidence)
Duncan had the thought that maybe once they realize that his vitamins were not MDMA, that they might try to switch out the vitamins with MDMA
His attorney said they aren’t that corrupt, or smart
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Duncan
Duncan Autrey has worked in facilitation and conflict resolution for over fifteen years in diverse contexts ranging from rural Paraguay and Colombia to cities of Seattle, Washington, DC, Cuenca and Buenos Aires. He approaches conflict from a belief that it arises from the diverse cultural experiences of common human needs. Every conflict or complicated situation, large or small, is an opportunity for deepening our relationships and improving the world we live in. Duncan currently runs a podcast called Fractal Friends covering topics on exploring our self-similarity across our diversity.
In this episode, Joe interviews Steve Hupp, the Host of Kentucky Ayahuasca, a new series on Viceland. Topics include Steve’s background and how he wants to impact the American Ayahuasca scene through his work.
3 Key Points:
Kentucky Ayahuasca is a docu-series on Viceland about Shaman, Steve Hupp as he works with people seeking healing from severe emotional and physical issues.
Steve comes from an unusual background of career criminal and bank robber, and because of his time in prison with a Peruvian Shaman, has decided to bring the tradition to the United States.
Steve is careful not to mock what shamanism is by creating ceremony in the States. He wants facilitation to be done as safely as possible and is simply trying to help people through Ayahuasca ceremony.
It landed him in prison and put him into the same cell of a Peruvian shaman who had overstayed his visa and was probably doing some facilitating in the States
His name was Guadalupe and Steve called him Loopy because of the things he was talking about
But here and there Guadalupe would say something that would resonate with Steve days and weeks later that just made sense
Prison
He spent 4 years in prison
He got into the federal system because he had beaten the state system so the federal system picked up the case
Steve pleaded guilty and made a deal with them to give them their money back
He also agreed not to sue the police for opening fire on him
He was one of the first bank robbers released on a bond
Religion and Spirituality
Up to that point he was an Atheist
He decided that something else was keeping him alive for something because of what he survived during the police chase
Steve says he’s seen how religious law worked by seeing gangs turn into congregations
He says he is no longer an Atheist after having experience with Ayahuasca
He had an epiphany that “anything is possible” and he decided he wanted to bring this to everyone
He started to have coincidences that led him to facilitation
Shamanism
Steve isn’t trying to defraud what Shamanism is, but he is trying to tailor it to the American way of life
He says the Shaman in the jungle has a different context than an American does
Joe mentions that people get upset about how the word ‘shaman’ is used
Steve says ‘shaman’ comes from the Siberian word, ‘saman’, which means “to know” but has been branded by anthropologists
He also says shamanism is the oldest world religion
Joe brings up that so many people suggest doing Ayahuasca in the Amazon because that’s where the spirit of the plant is, but he also mentions that the same type of biodiversity exists in Kentucky too
Purpose
Steve says they face reverse-racism because they can’t work with native tribes because they are white, but he’s just looking to bring everyone together
“If we don’t start helping our little blue sphere heal, it’s all we’ve got” – Steve
He said he had more fear transitioning into Ayahuasca facilitation than any bank he’s robbed because he had to put his name on it
His intent is not to build a cult, he believes we are at the dawn of a new world and we are all in this together
Helping Addiction with Ayahuasca
Steve says he believes there are no addicts, just unbalanced humans
Joe says he read recently that the term “addict” keeps people in their problems
When he helps people who are addicted to drugs, and they drink Ayahuasca, they realize the drug is not the problem, but the guilt and the shame about using the drug is the problem
Plant Teacher
Steve believes we are intergalactic children
We could use our technology and knowledge to better us rather than being so distracted by the ‘lines in the sand’
He says we could feed everyone on the planet with land the size of Texas
What Ayahuasca is trying to teach us is to be kind to each other and we have that choice everyday
We need to get past this barbaric attitude of domination
“I know I’ve got grandchildren that I may never see, but I’ve got to try to leave them a world better than the one I’ve found” – Steve
If we were to teach our kids to teach our grandkids something, we wouldn’t be handing them millions of dollars in national debt
Its a non-violent change
“What if we collectively manifested accountability in our government?” – Steve
Law Enforcement
Steve believes law enforcement shouldn’t be able to have more power than soldiers at war
Soldiers in Iraq can’t fire unless they have been fired upon
Shaman University
No one has ever done this before, Steve wants to put together a structure to make sure this operation is done ethically
He wants to lay the foundation for people to participate in Ayahuasca ceremony safely
He says anybody can brew Ayahuasca, but doing it safely and properly is key
Joe encourages viewers to check out the series on Viceland
Steve also encourages listeners who want to do Ayahuasca abroad to do tons of research before attending to make sure there are proper facilitators, ethical procedures and quality emergency response techniques and resources
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Steve
Steve Hupp had spent time in the Military. He was lost in materialism, drug abuse, alcoholism and pride that led him on a 5 year bank robbing spree that ended with him in Federal Prison, where he met his first Shaman, a cellmate. Now he is an Ayahuasca Shaman performing psychedelic healing ceremonies in Kentucky. Steve has worked with Ayahuasca for 15 years, trained by a Shaman from South America on how to work with Ayahuasca. He has spent much of that time working alone and experiencing many visions and entities that called him to found Aya Quest.
In this episode, Joe sits down with Kevin Matthews, Campaign Manager of Decriminalize Denver, the group looking to decriminalize magic mushrooms. During the show, they cover topics such as the Right to Try Act, therapeutic success and what it might look like to have Psilocybin decriminalized in Denver.
3 Key Points:
Decriminalize Denver’s efforts are aimed to decriminalize Psilocybin Mushrooms in the city of Denver, CO., and are currently getting signatures to be on the May 2019 ballot.
The Federal Right to Try Act allows a person with a life-threatening illness to use any substance that has passed phase one clinical trials.
There is so much research and data on the benefits of Psilocybin Mushrooms, and being in an age of social media sharing, people are waking up to the idea of mushroom decriminalization.
Kevin is a part of the group, Decriminalize Denver
The group submitted the ballot initiative called the Denver Psilocybin Mushroom Decriminalization Initiative and they are getting signatures to make the May 2019 ballot
Kevin became interested in mushrooms after leaving as a Cadet at the US Military Academy due to major depression
He was interested in Psilocybin Mushrooms impact on depression
Talking Publicly about Psilocybin Use
“Self-healing from psychedelics” is something most people want to be careful talking about
Does it uninspire therapists?
Does it ruin the medical model?
Kevin states that people are afraid to talk about it because they are a schedule 1 substance
Those who are willing to take the risk to talk about it are because they believe that mushrooms might have the best impact on them
Right to Try Act
Kevin knows someone with PTSD and tumors who is prescribed to Psilocybin under the Federal Right to Try Act
Anyone who has a life-threatening illness can use any substance that has passed phase one under clinical trials
His psychiatrist said that the psilocybin has been nothing short of miraculous in its effects
He takes 1.5-2 grams of dried mushrooms every 7-10 days
It puts him in control of his own protocol
Trump just signed the Federal Right to Try Act this summer, Colorado has had their own since 2014
Generational Mushroom Use
Joe says that the media landscape has really changed in the past few years and so much more research and information is becoming accessible to everyone
Veterans for Natural Rights group is supporting this mushroom movement
After the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, a lot of people went underground with their use
30 million people in the country have used psychedelics in the last decade
More young people now are using psychedelics than the same age group used psychedelics in the 60’s
Decriminalize Denver
The goal of the group is to decriminalize the personal use and personal possession of Psilocybin mushrooms, including the propagation of mushrooms for personal use
“Our main goal with this is to keep individuals out of prison, help our vets, and help our loved ones who suffer from these traumas” – Kevin
Colorado Always Making Progress
Right now, Colorado state legislature is looking at safe injection sites and different kinds of penalty such as rehab instead of incarceration
Joe says Denver is a kind of microcosm of the whole nation, it has an interest in both sides of an issue, instead of just one sided
“Mushrooms help, in a very profound way. And opening that door is the first step to changing people’s minds, both metaphorically and physically.” – Kevin
The medical applications of Psilocybin are huge such as for a stutter, autoimmune issues, anxiety and depression
Talking about Psilocybin
Kevin says you can’t have a conversation without two opposing sides
He is excited for when the conversation starts because there is a ton of points on why Psilocybin is proven to be effective
John’s Hopkins said that Psilocybin should at a minimum be a Schedule 4 (same level as prescription sleep aids) source
Schedule 1 means “no medical value and high risk of abuse”
From the clinical research and population studies alone on Psilocybin, we know that’s false
Decriminalize Denver’s Current Focus
Getting all 5,000 signatures (2,000 so far) by January 7th
Coalition building, doing some fundraising
Getting volunteers activated
After getting all the signatures, then they will be on the ballot. Once on the ballot, the campaign and outreach starts
Using Psilocybin for Therapy
Joe brings up a story about his teacher Lenny Gibson who had multiple bouts of cancer and is a psychedelic scholar. Lenny was incredibly mad at Tim Leary because he was in cancer support groups and imagines how many more options cancer patients would have for pain if drugs were not made illegal
Looking at decreasing suffering, it would be special for the Denver population to find relief in anxiety and depression before going into a life-threatening surgery, etc.
If this turns into a regulatory medical paradigm, licensure is important
How do we create the paradigm to open the work in a professional therapeutic manner?
Grand Rounds
Doctors will get together around a case study and share it within the medical community
It’s a way to share and practice case studies organically and internally
With social media alone 30,000 people can be reached a month
Typing in to Google “benefits of mushrooms” brings up a ton of research
When people hear about John Hopkins, NYU, Harvard, UCLA Medical Center, and all of these companies that have already been doing the research they become more interested
It takes the breaking up of a family after prison time of a drug offense, 7 generations to recover
Joe knows of a case where someone in Colorado who got busted for having mushrooms only ended up serving 2 weeks and didn’t get a felony for it
In 2005 New Mexico Court of Appeal said that cultivation of psilocybin mushrooms does not qualify as the manufacture of a controlled substance, as long as they aren’t dried
Mushrooms are Beneficial, Not Harmful
How do we ruin fewer lives by legalizing mushrooms and keeping people out from behind bars?
Mushrooms can put you in touch with yourself and help connect yourself to others
Feedback
Most of the responses are, “Hell yeah I’m going to sign this!” or “This saved my life”
Kevin says when someone says no, it’s all about educating them
They had 45% support it and 20% maybes
Working with the City
The bill would include a Psilocybin Mushroom Policy Review Panel, a city level committee made up of health professionals, Police, Denver Sheriff’s office, city attorneys, etc
Final Thoughts
Kevin wants as many people as possible willing to participate to volunteer
They will be starting public Q&A twice a month (and live streaming them)
Check out our online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Kevin
Kevin Matthews is leading the decriminalization of Psilocybin mushrooms in Denver, Colorado. He and his group of dedicated volunteers are currently collecting signatures to make the May 2019 Ballot.
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In this episode, Joe and Kyle interview Jake Mitchell from the Flight of Thoughts Podcast.
Jake has spent 4 years as a Paramedic in Canada and leads trainings around mental health, first aid and is bringing better practice of psychedelics into the psychedelic space.
3 Key Points:
It’s so important to know your substances and get a testing kit so you know its not laced and you know exactly what you’re taking.
More people seek help when they look at an overdose or a difficult experience as if they are suffering versus breaking the law. Decriminalization at the least, would help make people be seen as a patient and not a criminal.
Most police aren’t trained on mental health issues, and they have shot and killed people because they don’t know how to correctly respond to issues like schizophrenia. We need more mental health training among our law enforcement.
He had major depression and didn’t know it, and started to use cannabis as a useful tool for his depression
He started to notice some of the first responders use MDMA and Psilocybin off-duty to help with their PTSD
“PTSD for those who have been in combat is more understood than for first responders with it, people think that we can just handle it.” – Jake
There are levels of trauma that don’t qualify daily for PTSD, but for police and firefighters and such, they can be triggered by certain events
It’s hard to say what percentage of first responders use cannabis, MDMA and psilocybin for personal therapeutic use
Jake says he knows of at least a quarter of first responders who have been open about their use
There is a new initiative that if police use cannabis, even right before their shift, as long as they are ‘fit for duty’ they won’t be scrutinized
CBD
CBD counteracts the effects of THC, THC binds to CB1 receptors, and CBD binds to CB2 receptors
CBD is similar to Advil
If someone has taken too many edibles, they can take Advil to counteract the effect of the THC
It counteracts the THC similar to how CBD does
People used to say to have a good night, eat a pot brownie, but it’s a better idea to smoke for the first time than to eat an edible
Harm Reduction – Teaching People How to Respond to Overdose
They are teaching people about harm reduction kits or when to call an ambulance
Know your substances, and get a testing kit so you know its not laced and you know exactly what you’re taking
Know what breathing technique you want to use if you “feel the fear” setting in
If you know someone is on a clean substance, you can try to help them through it, but if it could be laced (with fentanyl, etc) call an ambulance
If someone is unresponsive, that’s a sign they could be overdosing
You can rub as hard as you can with your knuckles on their chest and scream their name, and if they don’t wake up, that’s a good sign to call 911
Always turn them on their side so that their air passages open up and they don’t asphyxiate on their tongue or vomit
If you are informed on how to use narcan and you think they are overdosing on fentanyl, use it
If they are awake and are psychologically freaking out, just sit them down and simply ask them “how can I help?” They might want something as simple as some water or to go for a walk
Knowing your dose is so important
LSD and psilocybin don’t have cardiac effects, they don’t shut off breathing, so you shouldn’t have a reason for feeling like your going to actually die unless it’s been laced
MDMA is one you have so worry about but you’d have to take hundreds and hundreds of milligrams
Usually the only reason that people overdose on heroin is because it’s laced with pharmaceuticals
Advil and Tylenol work similar to opioids
Sometimes we have emotional trauma and it comes out as physical pain
More people seek help when they look at it as that they are suffering versus breaking the law
Narcan costs $20-$40
An overdose death costs $30,000
In Canada, the pharmacist will inform you on how to use Narcan
Jake says he hopes that the US will catch up Narcan availability and use
The grinding of the teeth after taking MDMA may be a sign that it contains amphetamine
Decriminalization at the least, would help make people be seen as a patient and not a criminal
A Healthcare Issue, Not a Crime
The Good Samaritan Act in Canada says if you have minor possession of a substance and not a traffic-able amount, and you call the ambulance for an overdose, you will not be searched or charged
Most police aren’t trained on mental health issues, and there have been situations of people with schizophrenia having a moment in public, and because the police don’t have education on signs to look for, they have shot and killed the victim
23 and Me, the gene testing company, tested over 180,000 people’s genes in a sample
The findings showed that cannabis doesn’t cause schizophrenia, but people likely use cannabis to relieve symptoms of it
Serotonin Toxicity
Jake says he’s been hit in the face by someone on PCP
It took 6 police to hold one person down.
Another time, there was a guy who was wearing underwear in freezing weather, punching cars driving at almost 40 miles an hour
They were snorting Wellbutrin, an antidepressant that works as a stimulant when snorted
Serotonin syndrome is super dangerous
Ketamine is used in the ER for scenarios like this
Does taking MDMA too frequently ruin your serotonin system?
Emanuel Sferios – the number one risk of using MDMA is you might not get high from it anymore
Addiction
Type II Diabetes is a symptom of sugar addiction
Sugar and carbs create bacteria in the gut that releases plaque in the blood
Technology addiction – Jake had a patient that sliced an artery and was texting and on candy crush and Snapchat
Check out this FREE online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Jake
Jake is a Primary Care Paramedic with experience in emergency response, evidence-based research practice, harm reduction techniques, and crisis intervention. He is the Founder of The Psychedelic Society of First Responders and Emergency Workers.
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In this interview, Brian Pace interviews Dr. Jason Slot at Ohio State University. In the show, they talk about Jason’s contributions of the psilocybe genus. Jason is in the faculty at OSU in the department of plant pathology.
3 Key Points:
There are over 200 species of mushroom forming fungi that produce psilocybin, and Jason studies how and why these organisms produce the psychoactive compound.
Animals seek altered states of consciousness as a potential evolutionary mechanism.
Mushrooms use horizontal gene transfer to pass on their psychoactive properties.
“There weren’t many mycology job postings in the area, and a job came up for someone to study the evolution of fungal genomes” – Jason
It all just fell into place
What is Neurochemical Ecology
Ecology is the interaction among organisms and their interaction with their environment
Neurochemical ecology is a special case where the chemicals are specifically targeted to processes of nervous systems in animals
There is an opportunity for plants and fungi to produce drugs and compounds that manipulate their behavior or inhibit their eating
Species that Produce Psilocybin
There are over 200 species of mushroom forming fungi that produce psilocybin
Jason has found many more
Distribution of Psilocybe
Mushrooms were anatomically modern
There were flowering forests and wood that spanned to each of the poles
The supercontinent would have broken up after that and as the continents separated, so did the mushrooms
Humans have been distributing psilocybe through the dung of migrating animals
Columbian Exchange
During colonization from the old world to the new world, there was the biggest exchange of fungi
If the amount of biomass and dung expands, then the number of fungi species evolves and grows
The underlying change in the climate that changes the planet from forested to open grasslands also has an impact
During human evolution, psilocybe has been around the whole time
These neurochemicals have dated human genus
Serotonin
Serotonin is analogous to psilocybin
Bacteria was the first organism making serotonin
Insects produce serotonin
“Serotonin is a great key, it fits into a lot of different locks and is used in a lot of different ways” – Jason
It’s in plants, its in amoebas, and its in animals
In animals, they have specialized a lot of different receptors that respond to serotonin
Serotonin only interacts with one type of receptor in the body
Altered States of Consciousness
“It must be like something to be a bat, and it must be different than what it’s like to be a human, what must it be like to be a bat under the influence of psilocybin, is it anything like a human?” -Brian
Animals seek altered states of consciousness
Bees seek out fermented grapes
We have video footage of foxes taking huge bites out of Amanita Muscaria
Seeking out intoxication is a natural human drive
Maybe the desire to seek out these altered states of consciousness is an evolutionary mechanism that is happening
If you search out new ways of perceiving the world, you may come upon a new pattern that your group of species learns how to live better
If ants come back to the hive too drunk, they get punished and get bit
Language
One of the ways humans distinguish ourselves
We have specialized vocal chords, and tongues that make our language unique
Terrence – Stoned Ape Theory – the thesis was that psilocybin mushrooms were a part of the diets of the hominids
There was some kind of co-evolutionary relationship that may have resulted in human language
Psilocybin’s role in our development
“What kind of role did psilocybin mushrooms play in our development?”
The hominids came down from the trees and now they are standing upright
We have to look at opportunity, constraints, etc.
If the ape eats psilocybin, it may have an idea or understands its environment better
It may help the ape acquire more food or expand into new territory
The access to food and changes in locomotion are huge forces in our evolution
Having fire to cook our meat and change our availability to nutrients is one of the biggest forces in evolution of human consciousness than mushrooms
Horizontal Gene Transfer
Vertical transfer of information means from parent to offspring
Horizontal transfer of genetic information happens between species
One bacteria has a gene to resist an antibiotic, and another doesn’t. One bacteria can obtain that gene from the antibiotic resistant bacteria (ex. Antibiotic-resistant staphylococcus)
Gene transfer can happen in multicellular creatures like mushrooms
Fungi are exchanging genes through different species
Paneolis Mushrooms did not inherit the biosynthetic pathway to produce psilocybin, they received it from a totally different genera
KT Extinction
A comet impact that caused havoc and climate change that resulted in the extinction of dinosaurs
Mega herbivores, putting out tons of herbivore dung
The genes to make psilocybin were acquired by a dung loving Paneolis from a dung loving Psilocybe
Dung attracts flies, but it doesn’t kill the insects that eat psilocybin
Psilocybin is one of the safest drugs for consumption
The amatoxin in Amanita Muscaria (The Destroying Angel, commonly mistaken with Matsutake), interrupts the central part of cellular metabolism
Identifying Genes in Psilocybin
He sequenced 3 different species of mushrooms that make psilocybin, and then looked at one species that didn’t make psilocybin
They take two pieces of DNA and then compare them
They all have those genes, but how did they get them?
Validated the biosynthesis of psilocybin
Mediated Horizontal Gene Transfer
When fungi are under stress they take the DNA from their environment
Cicada Parasitism
There are cicada pathogens that infect the cicadas before they emerge from their ‘underground’ and their rear end is transformed into these spore producing structures
They fly around and drop their spores all over
Are these plants or fungi are using any of these neurochemicals in house for cognition?
Turing test – a computer can convince you that it’s human
Check out this FREE online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Jason
Jason Slot is an Evolutionary Biologist that studies topics in three major areas, the genomic and metabolic bases of fungal adaptation and niche, horizontal gene transfer mechanisms and the evolution of symbioses. He is in the Department of Plant Pathology at Ohio State University.
This is an edited transcript from a podcast that was recorded live in Bolten Valley, Vermont for a MAPS Psychedelic Dinner event in May 2016.
When I met Albert Hofmann, I introduced myself to him by telling him my birthday, which was April 17, 1943. He burst out laughing.
– Lenny Gibson
There are three modern turning points in the modern history of psychedelics. The first one being when Albert Hofmann had the experience that led him to realize the psychotropic properties of the substance he had synthesized. The second one was when Gordon Wasson and his wife, Valentina, connected with Maria Sabina, who was a curandera who used mushrooms. This event resulted in the introduction of psilocybin, in addition to LSD. The third turning point was when Hoffman and Wasson were together, and Hoffman synthesized psilocybin. Psilocybin became readily available, instead of having to go to some obscure place in Mexico to beg people to find somebody who knew where to get the mushrooms.
Greek History
The use of substances in providing transcendent experiences goes back beyond the beginnings of our written history in the west. The shamanic tradition in Greece led to the development of the tragic plays – The great tragic plays of Sophocles and Aeschylus. The Greek word tragedy, literally means goatskin, because in the festivals of Dionysus, who was the god of wine, when the new wine was decanted everybody got really high on the new wine. It gave people permission to act like goats and as you know Dionysus was portrayed as half man and half goat. Dionysus had also been to the underworld and back, like Orpheus, another person that comes out of the shamanic traditions and into, what we call, the Greek Mystery Religions. The most prominent of the Mystery religions was one called the Eleusinian Mysteries, a mystery not in the sense of Ellery Queen, but a mystery in the sense of mystical. That rite goes back beyond recorded time and lasted for, at least, two thousand years. It was a rite built around the myth of Demeter and Persephone.
Source: Wikipedia
Persephone was out picking flowers in the meadow on a spring day and Hades came along and grabbed her, took her down into the underworld. Demeter, her mother, was distraught but Persephone was gone. Demeter appealed to the other gods for help getting Persephone back. It was of no use. So finally, Demeter since she was the goddess of agriculture and growing things, decided that she would stop everything growing. Clearly a symptom of depression.
It didn’t bother the gods because they lived on Ambrosia. But then it occurred to them that if the human beings starved to death there’d be no one to worship the gods. That got to them and they agreed to help Demeter and prevailed upon Hades to let Persephone come back, but she had sampled maybe one or seven seeds from a pomegranate. The way those myths work, she couldn’t be completely freed of Hades and had to, ended up spending half her time in Hades and half with her mother. Thus, the variation of the seasons. So the myth is about going into the underworld and coming back, basically, about death and rebirth. It appears to have involved an ergot-derived substance, a psychedelic. We don’t know exactly because the Eleusis were sworn to secrecy and the secret was never revealed – two thousand years. All of the major people, all the intelligentsia, many of the regular people of Greece were initiates. They could do it once. Pindar, the famous poet, who was also an initiate, along with Plato and Xenophon and the whole, even to the Romans, Cicero was an initiate. Marcus Aurelius was the last Roman Emperor, was an initiate. The whole thing [The Eleusinian Mysteries] was killed when Calvin Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity. Pindar says, not revealing a secret, but says of the right, it was an experience dying before dying. But as I said, Constantine saw the Ring of Fire and decided that the Roman Empire should become Christian, they should stop persecuting the Christians and become part of it. And so Christianity doesn’t have a very good track record with substances other than wine and Eucharist, which are psychedelic for a very limited group of people who are intensely into the sacred technology of the mass.
Huxley and Humphry Osmond
So the middle ages is a kind of, in the west, it’s a kind of desert, as far as psychedelics are concerned. And we don’t really find anything of interest until we jump up to the 19th century. Havelock Ellis took peyote on Good Friday, 1897. He wrote it up for the British Journal of Medicine, they rejected it – too fantastical. His other major work, which was in The Psychology of Sex, seven volumes – sold very well. He gave some peyote buttons to William Butler Yates, who realized that we’re all slouching towards Bethlehem.
Humphry Osmond worked a little mental hospital up in Saskatchewan and began experimenting with LSD [and mescaline]. Aldous Huxley somehow learned of this work and said, “If you’re in LA, come by and see me.” Osmond didn’t think it would ever happen, but in fact, there was a bureaucratic problem at the hospital. They needed to reorganize and move Osmond up and get rid of the guy that was above him, and so while they were doing that, they sent Osmond off to an APA convention in LA – where he got in touch with Huxley. They went to a few sessions of the APA convention and were bored to tears. So they adjourned back to Huxley’s place and Osmond turned him on. It took about 90 minutes before it really hit him and then it blew his mind. Huxley was the author of Brave New World andApe and Essence. Huxley was one of the major intellectuals in the 20th century and an enormously successful author, half blind, but intensely intellectual. He was part of a circle of people that stretches back really to Havelock Ellis and Hermann Hesse [Who wrote Siddhartha andThe Glass Bead Game ], and Carl Jung.
But the psychedelic experience was restricted to a very small elite. Huxley, upon trying the mescaline, called it the most extraordinary and significant experience available to human beings this side of the beatific vision. (The Doors of Perception, he produced as a result of it.) In there, he mentions CD Broad, a British philosopher who characterizes the brain as a cerebral reducing valve. Huxley’s first theories here was that psychedelics eliminate some of the filterings of the brain. Fairly crude though, we have a lot more sophisticated stuff now. Robin Carhart-Harris has advanced that considerably.
Huxley was also friends with a fellow named Gerald Heard, who was again, a major intellectual personage in the early-mid 20th century. The two of them eventually came into contact with a guy named Al Hubbard, nicknamed Cappy, because he was the President of the Vancouver Yacht Club and also the Uranium Corporation in Vancouver. He is best described as a kind peripatetic imp. He rode off to Sandoz and got a huge supply of LSD and I guess carted around the world turning people on but kept it limited to a very small group of people like this.
There’s Gerald Heard, there’s Oscar Janiger, who was a psychiatrist in Beverly Hills, who found out about LSD, got a large supply of it and a group around him Huxley, Heard, Hubbard, Janiger, Sidney Cohen, they were involved in a salon in the LA area. Their recording secretary was Anais Nin. Janiger also obtained DMT and introduced that into the whole thing.
Humphry Osmond first proposed the term psychedelic at a meeting of the New York Academy of Sciences in 1957. He said the word meant “mind manifested” from the two Greek words for psyche and delos, which means clear. Huxley had sent Osmond a rhyme, which went, “To make this trivial world sublime, take a half a gram of phanerothyme. Thumos means spiritedness in Greek. Osmond wrote back, “The fathom hell or sore angelic, just a take a pinch of psychedelic.”
Tim Leary
Now until Tim Leary came along, the psychedelic usage, although it was a growing circle, was pretty much limited to a fairly elite circle, a circle of intellectuals and a few housewives, as you saw before. But then Timothy Leary got a hold of psilocybin and this is a major turning point because Tim Leary couldn’t contain himself. And, in some ways, he advanced things enormously and in other ways, he set them back terribly. But certainly, and there you see him in some of his many guises.
The basic issue was he had started out doing reasonable research at Harvard and he couldn’t keep it in and started spewing it out. So you get the stuff starting to come out into settings that are not conducive to people getting the best out of it. And he became involved with these folks – Good old Alan, William Burroughs, some of you may know he was heir to the Burroughs fortune, the Burroughs adding machine.
So, here we have these guys, Kerouac, On the Road, and Alan Watts, who was a great talker. So East Coast, we’ve got Tim Leary, and West Coast we got, Ken Kesey, Neal Cassady, coming out of on the road.
There’s the bus, the first acid tests, which morphed into the trip festivals, which morphed into Burning Man. The first Human Be-In and down there in the corner is one of the sponsors, Augustus Stanley Owsley III, who had a girlfriend who was good at making LSD and he produced zillions of doses really cheap.
But we have some problems here, the war. Psychedelics and the anti-war movement started synergizing each other and the government got really scared.
They (the government) had been interested in LSD early on. There was a guy named James Moore who accompanied Wasson (Gordon and Valentina) to Mexico under the pretext of being the photographer on one of those CIA plans. He (Moore) brought psilocybin back to back to the CIA. They were interested in it because it having mind effects – they discovered when they gave it to the spies, those hardened spooks ended up over in the corner weeping and crying about brotherly love. Other than the ones that ran frantically out of the room and had to be chased down in Virginia where they were found under a fountain talking about those terrible eyes and the monsters that were insulting them. So, it didn’t work out for the CIA.
Prohibition – California criminalized LSD on October 7th, 1966 and that’s when things started to head down because it drove it underground and that’s the worst thing you can do. I mean, prohibition, it’s like, “Will we ever learn?” We tried prohibition with alcohol. When I lived in Oklahoma, one of the lines there was, “It was so dry.” There were some dry counties in Oklahoma in the 1970’s, and the line was, “They would remain dry as long as the Baptists and the bootleggers could stagger to the poles.” It (psychedelics) went underground and at the same time proliferated.
Sasha Shulgin, wonderful man, wonderful, wonderful man. He could give a lecture on chemistry that was just if you didn’t know a bit about chemistry you would be fascinated. And there he is with his wife Ann and immortalized by Alex Grey. And there’s one of his “dirty pictures” down there in the corner, he called them dirty pictures, the molecules. There’s a great video on YouTube about Sasha called, Dirty Pictures, wonderful video.
And here are other folks – Richard Alpert, of course, was with Tim Leary at Harvard early on, but they diverged, India took on Alpert but it didn’t take on Tim. And we see Alpert in an early phase down there in the corner, we see him in his post-India phase when he turned back into just an ordinary transcendental. We have the intellectualization of Ken Wilbur, and we have a leprechaun fully as filled with impishness as was Cappy, Terry McKenna. That book (Be Here Now), I remember going to the church in LA after Ram Dass had come back from India and it was lovely and there were robes and beads and flowers and it was just fun. They were passing out this thing that says, “If you want a copy of this book we’re gonna publish, fill out one of these cards.” We were going, “Oh, these hippies, I’m not gonna bother filling out the card, ’cause it will never happen.” But it did and it’s still in publication.
Stanislav Grof
As the glorious phase was being dampened by the criminalization and all, there came from Czechoslovakia, the Stanislav Grof, where Stanislav Grof had been, when I was graduating from gymnasium (Gymnasium is like high school/junior college). The summer after gymnasium Stan wanted to become a cartoonist, he liked to draw cartoons. He was headed for the Saint Animation School. He had put in his application because you go right from gymnasium to university or professional school. Then a friend of his came by who had found a copy of Freud’s Interpretation of Dreams. (Freud was forbidden literature in community culture, Czechoslovakia, behind the iron curtain at the point). The friend was very excited about the book, you know try to get a college kid today to read the Interpretation of Dreams, it’s impossible, but tell them they can’t and boy!
Stan picked up the excitement and begged to borrow the book and he said he stayed up all night reading it. Stan then withdrew his application to film school and put in one to become to medical school. He wanted to become a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, which he did. Stan trained underground, doing his residence at Charles Hospital in Prague where they were working with the Sandoz Corporation in the development of some of the new major tranquilizers (Mellaril is what they were working with). Stan said, “You know when you work on a pharmaceutical company they’re always sending you stuff,” and they sent something to the program he was, and there appeared a box of ampoules of LSD from Sandoz Laboratories. They started a research program that was totally the opposite of what Tim Leary’s operation was. The communist country, people lay things close to their chest – amazing research. Curing, curing! It was not suppressive like most of the psychotropics, the tranquilizer drugs. They cured the people of profound depression.
In his book, (now called, LSD: Door to the Numinous, It was called, Realms of the Human Unconscious originally), Stan shares a story of a fellow who was severely catatonically depressed for a long time was given LSD. Their practice was to give a small dose of LSD at first, but he didn’t get anything from it so they had increased the dose and kept increasing it. They had got this guy up to 3500 micrograms before they got the first reaction. The guy got up out of his room, went to the kitchen, made a bologna sandwich, and then went to the day room and played chess.
So, Stan got out of Czechoslovakia to this country (USA). Stan said he came out with two suitcases, which contained his notes and two shirts. He then fortuitously hooked up with a man named, Walter Pahnke, who had Timothy Leary in his still relatively stable phase as a dissertation advisor and engaged the famous Good Friday experiment. Walter Pahnke was a physician who had taken a sabbatical to go to divinity school, and then went back to Johns Hopkins and began working with cancer patients on whom the oncologists had given up because they were beyond any help. They were in pain, they were in despair, they were scared, and they were using LSD with these patients. All the videotapes have gone, the last little bits of videotape burned when Stans house burned down some years ago.
Most astounding videotape is a guy who was a stevedore on the docks of Baltimore, in his 60’s, metastasized melanoma, they couldn’t give him anything orally and they had to inject him with dipropyltryptamine. Stan is sitting for him and in the course of this session, this man goes from a sort of Neanderthal with like maybe a vocabulary of 600 words, half of which are profanities, but mostly grunts. His family had abandoned him and in the course of this session he is transformed and he’s lecturing the great doctor Stanislav Grof about the “great recycling yard in the sky.” I cried. I’ve been through throat cancer myself. I’m with people who are cancer survivors and who are still facing terror and with 35, 40 years we could have been making it better. But we’re getting there, finally. I never thought it would happen.
Here’s Stan with Christina, when they were young and in love. They always were in love. There’s Stan with Albert Hoffman. He and Stan were good buddies.
The John Hopkins research fell apart when LSD became criminalized. Michael Murphy and Stan fortuitously hooked up and Murphy invited Stan to Esalen as scholar-in-residence. After a few years Stan needed to produce an income for Esalen, so he put together the technique called, “Holotropic Breathwork.” When I was telling Stan for the second time, the reason I decided on holotropic breathwork training was that I had an experience with holotropic breathwork that was identical with the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had with LSD. Stan said, “That’s what convinced me too.” It’s not like taking a pill and you don’t have any choice, ’cause you gotta work at it, that’s why it’s called breath work – but you can get to the same place.
Creativity
Rick Doblin was part of the first Holotropic Breathwork training. There were two parallel groups of trainees of Holotropic Breathwork in the mid-80’s. Rick Doblin was in one of them. Rick got it that Timothy Leary wasn’t the way to go. The way to go was to start, get the credentials, go slowly, and slowly, and slowly. (It’s effective). Through the Holotropic Breathwork training, it’s brought people together that have an interest that was disappointed as the 60’s began to fade. A fellow named Michael Mithoefer, who became the lead researcher for MDMA. So, the Holotropic Breathwork stuff really has been the leverage that’s kept things going, where we actually have hope now that we’re going get this (psychedelics becoming legal as medicine).
I was saying to Stan, “Isn’t this great that Michael’s doing the MDMA research.” And Stan says, “Yeah, but you know, that’s all been done, it’s all been written up before. It’s all there. It’s just been forgotten. The real potential is creativity.”
And indeed, from counterculture to cyberculture. Rick has been working in the psychological realm and some of the other people that came out of the 60’s, Steve Jobs, among them. The future looks bright to me. And I’m sure happy I’ve lived long enough to see it.
Are you looking for a basic introduction to psychedelics and harm reduction? Check out this mini-course!
In this episode, Joe interviews Philip Wolf founder of Cultivating Spirits, a cannabis pairing company. The talk includes topics on Terpenes, Social Consumption and the Cannabis experience industry.
3 Key Points:
Terpenes are the component in cannabis that produce the aroma and ‘mood’ you will be in after smoking.
As more and more places legalize cannabis, the market opportunity for combining food and cannabis grows.
Cultivating Spirits is a cannabis experience and tour company that offers small-batch cannabis, fine wines, and locally sourced gourmet meals. They are a leader in cannabis-infused experiences.
Philip has been in the legal industry of cannabis in Colorado for 9 years
Cultivating Spirits started in Breckenridge, Colorado in 2014 after legalization
He went to a wine experience event and had an epiphany of bringing the cannabis experience to the ‘soccer mom’
He walked away from equity in multiple companies because he believed in it
Cultivating Spirits is the first company to offer a cannabis pairings experience
After learning about terpenes he learned about pairing foods with attributes of cannabis
Terpenes
There are 3 components in cannabis that give you certain feelings
THC gets you high, gives a euphoric feeling
Flavonoids
Terpenes produce the aroma of cannabis and it determines the ‘mood’ you will be in after smoking
Terpenes are produced in all plants and produce, they attract pollinators and help fight disease within the plant
THC-A is non-activated THC, meaning it needs a flame or heat to activate it
Michael Pollan’s book – Botany of Desire
At the base genetic level, our goal is to reproduce and expand
“Are we the workers for this plant?” – Philip Wolf
People’s Reactions
They are loving it!
The average age for a person who attends Cultivating Spirits is 45
Cultivating Spirits focuses on parties and events
Old folks are some of the best clientele, they don’t have jobs and they are done with all of the hassles of making a family and working hard for their job, etc.
Microserving
Microserving is one hit
Holding cannabis in longer doesn’t get you higher, it’s about the surface area of your lungs
So if you expand your lungs very lightly, you will get less high than if you would if you fully expand your lungs when taking a hit
Expansion
Cultivating Spirits operates all over Colorado
They are working to expand to Las Vegas
They also opened up Cannabition
They are taking this business to other places with good heart
Cannabis Nightclubs and Social Consumption Lounges
Cannabis isn’t the reason for the decline in alcohol sales, but the desire for new experiences
Philip believes it will happen first through coffee shops
Everyone needs food, so it’s a great market to integrate into
“I use cannabis like I use a cup of coffee, I use it, but I don’t use it all day” – Philip Wolf
Cannabis… Psychedelic?
There is a psychoactive part to cannabis
Philip says he uses cannabis to deepen his meditation and yoga practice
He is a Certified Yoga Teacher
Although he is certified to teach, he did it for himself and to learn tools he can use during his whole life
Cannabis is a mirror – it’s what’s inside already but getting amplified
First Dinner Approved by Municipality
The opening of X-games in Aspen, CO in 2015
5 courses, 5 wines, 5 strains of cannabis
A DJ from Thievery Corporation deriving beats from where the food dishes come from
Check out this FREE online course, “Introduction to Psychedelics”
About Philip Wolf
Philip Wolf is one of the world’s first pot sommeliers, an expert and pioneer in the field. In 2014, he opened Cultivating Spirits with a mission to show mainstream America how cannabis should be treated. Setting tables with forks, wine, and pipes, Wolf’s pairings are grounded in the science of interpening, which the institute calls “a method used to identify and understand cannabis variety [by] interpreting … terpenes and flower structure.” Wolf can sniff a bud, identify the strain and terpenes, and interpret both the flavor profile and high. The protocol for his dinner with bud pairings is puff, eat, drink.
Keeping Tabs
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is designed to bring psychedelic experiences into the flow of your life and maximize their potential for helping you create the life you want to live
by Martin Prechtel
Humphry Osmond worked a little mental hospital up in Saskatchewan and began experimenting with LSD [and mescaline]. Aldous Huxley somehow learned of this work and said, “If you’re in LA, come by and see me.” Osmond didn’t think it would ever happen, but in fact, there was a bureaucratic problem at the hospital. They needed to reorganize and move Osmond up and get rid of the guy that was above him, and so while they were doing that, they sent Osmond off to an APA convention in LA – where he got in touch with Huxley. They went to a few sessions of the APA convention and were bored to tears. So they adjourned back to Huxley’s place and Osmond turned him on. It took about 90 minutes before it really hit him and then it blew his mind. Huxley was the author of Brave New World and Ape and Essence. Huxley was one of the major intellectuals in the 20th century and an enormously successful author, half blind, but intensely intellectual. He was part of a circle of people that stretches back really to Havelock Ellis and Hermann Hesse [Who wrote Siddhartha and 
