In this episode, Kyle and Joe sit down with filmmaker Mustapha Khan and Dreamshadow’s Elizabeth & Lenny Gibson to explore Life and Breath—a new documentary immersing viewers in the experience and community of Holotropic Breathwork. We talk about why Mustapha was drawn to Dreamshadow, the film’s cinéma vérité approach that places you “in the room,” and how years of facilitation informed what became both an archival record and a living portrait of transformation. Elizabeth and Lenny reflect on 35+ years of holding space, the role of curiosity over agenda, and why genuine community is central to lasting growth. Kyle and Joe share personal reactions from a Breckenridge screening, the emotions it stirred, and how this work has shaped Psychedelics Today. We close on hope, relationship, and the power of gathering to remember who we are. Keep an eye out for upcoming screenings and Q&As with the team behind Life and Breath.
Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork
Life and Breath will screen at the Awareness Film Festival on October 26, 2025 in Santa Monica.
Life and Breath won first place at the Psychedelic Film and Music Festival!
Transcript
Kyle Buller: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. Really excited to have Lynn Elizabeth Gibson here. Mustafa Khan. Welcome to the show. Thank you.
Yeah, thanks.
So today we’re gonna dig in to talk about this new breathwork documentary called Life and Breath, uh, that was directed and produced by Mustapha Khan.
And for those that wanna go back and maybe listen to Mustafa’s Backstory, uh, we did two podcasts with you, so you can go back into the, the archive and, and check that out. But, um, yeah, well, we’ll just do some quick little intros. So Mustafa, I’ll, I’ll put it over to you to introduce yourself and then we’ll get into things.
Lenny Gibson: Sure. Uh, I’m Mustafa Khan. I’m a filmmaker based in New York. I make, uh, documentaries, narrative films, TV shows, all sorts of stuff. Um, but, um, we’re here today because I made this new film called Life and Breath, uh, featuring, uh, Kyle and Elizabeth and Lenny among other folks. So, uh, I’m delighted to be here.
Kyle Buller: [00:01:00] Awesome. And then Elizabeth, we’ll pass it over to you.
Elizabeth Gibson: Hi everybody. I’m Elizabeth Gibson of Dream Shadow Group. We are a nonprofit organization that promotes personal development work and community building centered around the technique and method that Lenny and I have both been loving and practicing for 35 years now called Holotropic Breath Work.
And I’m very happy that we’ve made this amazing film about it and excited to share it with everybody.
Kyle Buller: Thank you. And Lenny, we’ll pass it over to you.
I’m Lenny Gibson,
a philosopher based in Paulette, Vermont,
and. Entangle the dream shadow.[00:02:00]
Joe Moore: Well, this is gonna be fun for us, Kyle and I really, um, particularly loved the film. I’m happy it’s still gonna get to stream. Um, so, or sorry, screen. So Mustafa, can you tell us a little bit about what’s going on in la?
Mustapha Khan: Uh, sure. Thank you. Um, yes. On October 26th, uh, Sunday, we are screening as part of the Awareness Film Festival in Santa Monica, California.
So please come out. It will be, um, at five 30 on Sunday, I believe at the, um, illusion Magic Theater in, uh, Santa Monica. That’s brilliant. Yeah, it should be, should be lots of fun. And Lenny and Elizabeth, Kyle and I will all be there, um, to do a q and a afterwards as well, and answer any questions you might have.
Joe Moore: Great, thank you. And so we [00:03:00] decided just a little bit ago that we’re gonna do this, um, stream a little bit different from what we’ve done in the past because we’ve had you on before Ms. Tapa to talk about the film. Um, but I, uh, think we can interview the subjects a little bit, um, and see here’s some new perspectives.
So, um, first before we do that, can you kind of tell us like, um, what was it about Dream Shadow that made you wanna do some film there and, and do a project?
Mustapha Khan: Well, it was just a very, very compelling story. Um, all these people coming together from all different walks of life to work on their issues or to know themselves better that they all journey to, uh, this little town of Vermont where Lenny and Elizabeth live and they convene this very special, um, session where people discover themselves and.
I just thought that was a fascinating, uh, story to tell. So, um, happy to, happy to tell it in the film we tell, [00:04:00] um, the story of going through the session, what it’s actually like, and then a sort of a post session analysis as well. So, um, yeah, hope you, hope you enjoy it. Hope you watch.
Joe Moore: Yeah, it was, it was really great.
We had, um, the pleasure, thank you for helping us do this, of, um, hosting a bunch of our, uh, people in our vital program in Breckenridge, Colorado, and we were able to watch it and it was just really great to, that was my first time watching it. I cried at least a few times, which is amazing. Wow.
Mustapha Khan: Tell me, tell me how they reacted and how, how you reacted.
I’d be
Joe Moore: very connect. Oh gosh. It was, um, like I was, I was experiencing, um. I was experiencing some really similar emotions to what I have when I’m there. And, and it was coming back and it was reminding me of things and like there was some emotional resonance I was having with a lot of the stories and the scenery and, you know, it’s, it’s been such an important, um, practice in my life and [00:05:00] place in my life that I, you know, I was feeling a lot and having a lot of emotions.
And I think, I think it was fun, well, not fun, maybe insightful for the others to kind of see Kyle and I having our own kind of like, you know, wiggling responses to it, you know? And, um, it was cool to be able to share that and then have those conversations with people. ’cause we’re really transparent that we’re, we’re modeling a lot of what we do and what we learned in, in dream shadow and palette.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Sorry, Paulette,
Lenny Gibson: but, but, but thank you for telling me about that, uh, because, um, you know, one of our intentions was stylistically to make it as if. You’re actually going through a session, um, itself. So if you notice at a certain point in the film, you know, we sort of set it up as people are setting up, but then once the session begins, we stay in the session, sort of cinema verite as they say.
Um, so you’re just literally observing it and, you know, it’s, it’s wordless at that [00:06:00] point. Um, so for a big stretch of the film, um, it’s just that experience. So I’m, I’m so happy that you didn’t get bored, but that, but you went with it.
Joe Moore: Yeah, no, it’d be hard for me to get bored. I, I was just impressed that I was able to wait so long to watch it.
Um, it didn’t get too antsy. Um, yeah, so, so glad. Thank you. Let’s start asking this subject stuff. So mu stuff like this is something you’ve done before, right? So you’ve, you’ve done these kinds of projects and, and I’m sure you’ve been curious what people are. Kind of think retroactively about the project, the, the product, and what kind of stuff is really curious, um, or like top on your mind for these subjects here.
Lenny Gibson: Well, I, I kind of think to myself it’s like, uh, Lenny Elizabeth, I’m not sure that, you know, do you know what you’re getting into when you’re decide to make a film? Uh, it’s, uh, it’s, I’m, I’m sure it’s been quite a ride, so I would love to just Elizabeth, for example, I mean, I’d love [00:07:00] to hear your thoughts on sort of the ride from what you originally thought we were gonna do and then till you know, what we’re doing in California and and beyond.
Elizabeth Gibson: Well, originally I thought you and Allie, your partner, were just coming to our house for a visit on your way to, I think you were going to maybe to Canada to see other friends.
Lenny Gibson: Yeah.
Elizabeth Gibson: And we were on our deck having tea or something. I noticed that you and Lenny were having kind of a conversation off to the side and about an hour later this idea had been hatched of making a film.
And I was, I was very excited, kind of surprised, um, and had no really no idea what I was getting into. But I loved, I’m sorry about about that. I shoulda explained it. [00:08:00] I loved it. It’s been an incredible adventure working with you and so wonderful for everybody in our community who’s been able to participate, not just being in this, the film, but going to the screenings and talking about it.
And now we have this amazing record, or it started out as kind of the original idea I think was as an archive of our teaching. That we could have to pass on to the next generation of breath work facilitators. But I feel like it’s grown into so much more than that. So it’s been quite a ride. And now, now we’re going to, to California.
I, you know, I, I never know what we’re gonna be doing next, but it’s all fun and, um, I’m loving it.
Kyle Buller: And how about for you, Lenny? What, what has this [00:09:00] process been like for you?
Interesting.
I, I didn’t
have any, any particular ideas, but someplace in the conversation musta and I were having, I pretty sure it was musta. I suggested, well, maybe you could make a film and.
That immediately engaged me because this breath work we do is hard to explain as a verbally. I mean, one can,
the verbal explanation doesn’t do justice to the process. And so I [00:10:00] was immediately happy that Mustafa was willing to give a shot.
Kyle Buller: Hmm.
And then going through the process, I, I’d never been on, on the inside of a film being made and I realized what an endeavor it was. And especially a film about something real.
Um, ’cause I stopped going to films about 45 years ago because most of them weren’t real.
So I thought it would be a great, it’d be a great idea to give this shot and watching it [00:11:00] develop. And um, I was very impressed with you Mustafa, as your ability to ask people questions and
thank
Kyle Buller: you.
That was the thing that I take away most from the experience was that you are an expert at asking people questions that help them. Reveal themselves.
Kyle Buller: Mm-hmm.
Uh, and, and that’s basically what breath work is all about, is helping people see themselves
in a way that they don’t usually see themselves. We usually see ourselves in a reflection of someone else. We usually think of ourselves as being seen through someone else’s eyes. [00:12:00] And
so your capacity to make people comfortable with showing who they are was a, was a gift.
Lenny Gibson: Thank you.
And.
The, the process of putting it together, um, watching it from the original, from the original takes, and then watching you pull together a coherent story that, that, uh,
I mean, the closest I’ve come was building a house and trying to get the carpenters to understand my crew drawings.[00:13:00]
So it was a delight to watch this film being created. Um, it, it was, it, it made me very happy to watch it and to see how it, how it grew, how it came to be. Um.
And, and then as it came to be, I saw it as a wonderful resource for our facilitators. Um,
something they will be able to use in the future to, to, to stimulate people’s interest because all the people I’ve talked to have seen the film so far have, I think, [00:14:00] come to understand it, come to understand what, what the dream shadow technique is. And of course, it derives from what Stan Graff introduced to us, but I’ve never seen.
A film. There have been a few films made of, of Stan and Christina’s work, but none of them, most of ’em I’ve seen are more like, you know, family movies
and it’s hard to get into a family movie unless you’re one of the family. But the, this film you developed just invites people in. And so I, I think it’s extremely valuable that way because, ’cause [00:15:00] I think Stan has given rise to a technique that is the future of psychology, not as psychology per se. As the kind of activity that psychology would like to engage, but can’t because it
is all about experts telling people what to do, and modern psychology is a mess and, and very inadequate to accomplishing a task it sets out to do.
So here I shift over to my academic hat[00:16:00]
and 2,500 years ago, Aristotle, first political scientist, surveyed a whole bunch of the ancient Greek cities that were pretty unique. Human creations, politically speaking. I mean, apol polls was the word Greeks used for their cities. And after he surveyed these cities and what they did, he decided that wellbeing, it was a great, great term as aia.
Well, diamond, well charactered that, that to be well Charactered required both insight into one’s own character and it required being in a city Apollos, [00:17:00] that was also well, that also understood itself. And the problem with modern psychology. I think the central problem is that community is missing and,
and in fact,
you don’t need psychology if you have a community that’s in, in which people can understand themselves. Um, so I don’t think of this as psychology per se, but I think of this more as what human beings did in [00:18:00] tribes, um, how, why human beings were so successful. At populating establishing the foundation out of which the civilization of the planet grew
and human beings were successful. Or I should start from the other end.
Joe Moore: Well, maybe before we go all the way back in history, we check in with Kyle, um, and Kyle, I’m kind of curious, as you saw this film kind of process into reality, can you kind of like share like what it was like for you to, to be part of this and see this come to life?
Kyle Buller: Yeah, it felt like a, a real honor to be part of it, which was really nice.
Um, yeah, I remember, I think I just got back from maybe the Netherlands and then drove up [00:19:00] to Vermont. I had like a day in between and then did some filming. And yeah, to echo Lenny’s comment, uh, Mustafa did a really great job asking questions and, and pulling the narrative out. Um, and. Yeah, I’ve seen all kind of like the, the different, um, iterations through the editing process.
And I, and I really appreciate Mustafa, like what you’ve created there. It does feel like you go on a journey, um, through the film and almost like gives you a bit of an experience versus like, you know, here’s a technique, here’s like all the theoretical stuff, but it gives a person experience of like, you know, what it’s like to be in that room.
Um, and I think to, you know, Joe, your point, I think I was even getting emotional when we were, uh, screening it up here at Breckenridge too. Just like, again, I think that being in those spaces just brings up a lot of memories and all the work that, you know, we’ve done throughout the years, um, in, in that space.
Um, the growth and just even thinking about like. Where we’re at now. Like I think about, yeah, Lenny Elizabeth, I met you guys back in [00:20:00] 2010, 15 years ago coming up. My first breathwork session was on Halloween in 2010. Um, and just also thinking about like yeah, where we’re at now. Um, so it’s, it’s been, um, really beautiful, um, to witness.
And, um, Lenny, you mentioned something about like an archive, right? And, you know, that’s kind of why psychedelics today started too. Joe and I got together and, you know, we wanted to kind of create a bit of an archive, um, of some of your work as well. Um, you know, I think it’s evolved, um, a lot from that idea, but I think, you know, we all talk about all your work all the time, right?
And, and impact that it’s had. So, uh, it’s nice to have, I guess, a, a film that kind of depicts that and, and shows folks like yeah, what it’s like, uh, to be part of that process. Um, so yeah, it’s been been really beautiful.
Joe Moore: And Elizabeth, I’m kind of curious from your perspective, what was, what was really surprising about seeing your story?
Um, being told on a big screen like that,[00:21:00]
Elizabeth Gibson: it was very exciting to see and I, I almost felt watching it, like I was actually in a breathwork session, which I hadn’t expected that somehow Mustafa and his colleague Jethro, who was also filming, managed to capture the feeling of being in the space, which is the magic that happens. And so I tell friends now when they watch the film, I say It’s best if you can watch it on a big screen with a really good sound system because it’s quite an immersive experience and.
Initially, I, I was, I couldn’t really imagine what it was gonna be like to have a session being filmed, if that would change kind of the atmosphere in the room and if [00:22:00] people would be able to let go. But because of the special way that Mustafa has of just becoming part of what he’s trying to capture, I felt almost in a way that, that your presence there and what you’re doing, Mustafa kind of in intensified the experience for everybody in an unusual way.
So I was quite surprised and I think I learned a lot about, um, how important it is for us as human beings to really. Try to convey to others the work that we love in the world and why it’s important, which is what we’re trying to do with the movie. And I also felt that working [00:23:00] with Mustafa was, I mean, that’s also what you were doing.
So we were kind of doing this thing together that we were all doing the same thing. We were all engaging in a creative act, and the movie really came out. I just think it’s, I love watching it. I must have seen it, you know, I don’t know, almost 10 times now, but every time I watch it, I enjoy it even more.
Lenny Gibson: So. Glad to hear that. Thank you. Hmm. And, and what we do is very similar in a lot of ways, and that’s one of the things I really discovered in the process is that, you know, ideally I’m a facilitator. I facilitate somebody’s soul being on stage, you know, people opening up and sharing that with them, sharing that with the world or sharing that with other people.
And, um, and that’s exactly what you and Lenny do in your space. And, um, and really you beautifully facilitate and then let, let people go and just give them that safe [00:24:00] container. So it’s a, it’s a very similar analogy in, in a lot of ways. Um, I often, I, I, I teach as well, so I often tell my students not to.
When you’re interviewing, you’re not really there to ask questions. You’re really there just to give them prompts, to tell their own story, to let what’s inside them shine. And, um, that’s what it’s all about. And you just let that, let that happen and, uh, beautiful stuff can happen.
Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s, it’s amazing.
So, Lenny, was there anything like through the process of filming, um, or. Watching this be released that kind of, uh, shaped or changed the way you understood your work or, um, dream shadow? Generally
Lenny Gibson: it was mostly reinforcement. It, it assured me that what [00:25:00] we’d been developing over the years was very Kay. Um, and this is what I wish life would be like. That one could drop into these groups in, in various situations and have the experience of open conversation in which one explores who one is and how one understands other people.
Um, and
Kyle Buller: it, it,
it’s my ideal of what philosophy aspired to. I, I think it’s what philosophy aspired to from its beginnings and gradually [00:26:00] got lost as, as academic and theological things developed and things became more rigid and, and and structured. But I think when I, when I, this is what Plato was after in his dialogues.
This, this is what Plato was after, and I, at the time. The people that had the leisure to do this sort of thing were only the upper classes on the Greek city. The, the people who, who descended from the aristocrats. Because
for most people, life, for most of recorded history has been a hand to mouth existence. But [00:27:00] some places where they became prosperous enough so that at least some of the people could have leisure to gather around and try and figure out why they were there, what they were doing, why, what life was all about.
Um, so if only, I mean, I, I, Plato was. Basically a playwright. And so my experience of your putting good, you are a playwright in most, in the classic Greek sense.
Um, and I got a little bit of that. I had some in college especially, I had some very good, a couple very good teachers who [00:28:00] made their classes a bit like this, it, since you’re in college and you’re getting graded and that stuff, you know, that’s, uh, it kind of interferes. But there were numerous times in some, some small classes where we just got down to talking about stuff.
And so in some ways, dream shadow is my attempt to recreate that experience. Without the framework, the rigid framework of the academic situation. Um, so I think
what, what what you’re doing compares with especially the early dialogues of Plato, where it’s conversations. [00:29:00] Um, and that’s what I feel most i i in the process of being with you as this film has come together and as it’s caused me to reflect upon what I’m doing. I, I think more and more that Plato would, Plato would understand this perfectly.
He, he would, it would just be, sure, of course this is what you do. This is what you do. If you wanna pursue, you wanna live life to its fullest,
Lenny Gibson: you know? And, and Lenny in that method is really people asking questions of one another. And so much of what our media propagates is, is [00:30:00] everyone having the answers already.
Yeah. You know, and so the sense of wondering and being thoughtful is, uh, is, is lost in our society a little, or at least it’s not modeled in any kind of way. Um, to say, I don’t know, which is a pretty honest reaction to most things, I think. Um, ’cause we don’t know is, is a rare thing. So, um, you know, I see what you all do at Dream Shadow is.
Being able to give us a platform, gi give us a space to be able to say, I don’t know. And I just am exploring right now and there’s something very beautiful about that.
Yeah. Well, and to me it’s human life at its most beautiful and its most beautiful occasion. Um, and[00:31:00]
I hope you know that this is where humanity is aimed ultimately to when I was in graduate school, which was boring as hell, but I did meet a, a, a priest from Vietnam. And in a conversation he said, well, we’ll have a party. We write poetry.
And that’s the best kind of party, which is a party where creativity is the, is the, is the nourishment, is the food, is the, is the, um, is what goes on. And so I appreciate that this vehicle, [00:32:00] this film is a vehicle, gives a sense. And I really as I,
as as we do this work now, especially in our training sessions, where there are people that have engaged this process repeatedly. Um, that when we finish with sharing, I think it’s pretty identical to what happened in Plato’s Academy. Um, we don’t speak Greek, of course, but, but the kinds of questions that people raise and there’s a little bit more orientation towards the personal, um, than there might have been in classical Greece, but it’s, it’s an exploration of what it means to be human.
And
Joe Moore: would Greek be helpful?
Lenny Gibson: [00:33:00] Well, Greek is a beautiful,
English has its beautiful moments, but.
It, it, it, it doesn’t have the subtlety. You can, the, the conjugation of a Greek verb goes on for pages and pages, and you can practically tell what time of day it is from looking at the form of a Greek verb.
Joe Moore: All right. Maybe I don’t have time to learn it.
Lenny Gibson: It, it, I haven’t been able to learn it anywhere near it to the extent I would like to, but it, it, I mean, just things like in, in English we have singular and plural.
In, in, in nouns and pronouns. In Greek, they had singular, plural, and dual. [00:34:00] That when you talked about a pair of oxen, that was a different set of endings. And if you talked about a herd of. Cows or an and, and in, in, in verbs you can express things like what it would be like to have had an experience and look back upon it later and enjoy it even though it was a difficult experience.
It’s the, the future Perfect heist.
Elizabeth Gibson: So before we get too deep into ancient Greek, I’m, I’m famous at our workshops for interrupting Lenny all the time, and I I, but one thing you were touching on Lenny that I think is really important about what we do, um, in both in breath work and then this whole process of making the movie is that [00:35:00] we’re building relationships.
And so because we’re doing such deep work in a group setting. The bonds that people form with each other in the group are really, um, likewise deep, and people remain friends. Relationships form, I mean, just, I’m looking at the four or the five of us on this call. You know, Kyle, you said 15 years and Joe, it must be about that long that we’ve known longer,
Kyle Buller: longer, longer.
And
Elizabeth Gibson: then you guys went on to form psychedelics today and then all of a sudden Mustafa landed at one of our workshops and, and, and here we are making this film. And Mustafa has shared his community with us. And, and likewise. So [00:36:00] there’s this web of relationships, deep relationships that to me. It’s such an incredibly sweet experience and it also points to what’s missing in our culture today and why I feel that this work is so important, not just for the, the personal development that happens for all of us as we engage this work, but for the deep friendships that we form.
And I’m very grateful for that. And Kyle, when I heard you say earlier on this call that your first breath work was on Halloween. I didn’t remember that, but do you know what, uh, my first breath work was on Halloween too,
Kyle Buller: so. Oh, no way. That’s fun.
Elizabeth Gibson: And we’re going out, we’re gonna be in Santa Monica pretty close to Halloween, so I don’t know what’s up with that, but an
Kyle Buller: anniversary of some sort, [00:37:00] sounds like,
yeah, Stan would, Stan would label this as a kind of coex.
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
A kind of theme that repeats that, that draws people together by bringing out their connection. Uh, that’s not a good, by bringing out by, by, by, by bringing out of the human past the themes that bind people together that they’re not aware of necessarily. Um, and, and, and allow the development of real understanding, real cooperation amongst people, which, you know, sports try to have teams that get along together, but, um, that comp or something together.
But this is a, I remember an [00:38:00] early workshop we did with some. Facilitator, friends. And at the end of the sharing, the woman said, you mean we can’t all go home together? But it also, I mean, what got me into this was the, um, emergence of psychedelics in modern European, and especially modern American culture.
Um, and that’s where Stan started from and, and wanting, there was a, there was a, in the sixties, there was a sense of commonality that developed out of the civil rights movement and then out of the, um, the counterculture movement, but it was very small. [00:39:00] And, and, and, and, and stood in contrast to the general face of things.
Um,
and
I saw how Stan’s work developed from the inspiration he got from the, from Albert Hoffman’s discovery and, and, and, and, and, and employing Albert Hoffman’s discovery. But
I mean, the criminalization of psychedelics, the treating of them as drugs, it, it doesn’t do them justice at all. And I the future. [00:40:00] I think, I mean the, these, the, the, the, the discovery of, of the psychedelic effect of certain, of, of, of these substances is comparable, I think to the, uh, increase in human understanding that came from the invention of the telescope and the microscope.
It magnified experience. And I, I think these substances can perform a similar, but the telescope of the microscope alone are not enough. And so I think, uh, the, I hope the most fruitful, fruitful future will be in the. [00:41:00] Development of the use of these substances combined with the breath work technique, because the substances tend to be a bit isolating.
They’re, they’re, they’re, they, they, they, they emphasize individuality. And the
Joe Moore: Lenny, a quick question. You said treating them like, like drugs. Um, did you mean in terms of, um, like clinical drug development, FDA approved drugs in a similar category to that, or did you mean it in a different way? Um,
Lenny Gibson: Albert Hoffman was not trying to develop, he was trying to develop a. A blood pressure drug.
He wasn’t trying to develop a, a psychotropic drug. They, [00:42:00] the, the few psychotropic drugs could have drugs that have been developed were awful. Um, Al Thorazine, these are just, these are awful, awful. I mean, they calm people down, but at the loss of, they’re awful. They’re just awful for their, because their side effects are overwhelming.
Joe Moore: So in short, you’re saying it’s like just a very different category of substance.
These are not, the psychedelics are not drugs. They only became drugs in mid 20th century America. They, they, they’ve been around for millennia. But what happened in the 20th century, the mid 20th century, was that. They appear, they, the closest category that was available for people to [00:43:00] deal with them was that they were drugs.
I mean, because, and they’re not, A drug is designed to address the symptoms of an illness and what’s the illness.
Joe Moore: I’ll point people towards Sasha Shoguns, the nature of drugs, which is an amazing volume. That’s a lecture notes from Berkeley. It’s extraordinary. Yeah. It’s, uh, Joshua
was an extraordinary person.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Well, let’s get back to the film. Yeah. I wanted
Elizabeth Gibson: Joe getting back to the film. Mm-hmm. Can I jump in again please?
Because I think this will be the event that we’re going to in Santa Monica in about 10 days, I guess. It’s gonna be our third or fourth screaming, screaming, screening, not screaming. Um, screening and the screenings themselves have been [00:44:00] equally amazing, I think, because the fact that we go and talk about our experience making the film and we’re there to interact with the audience after they’ve seen the film, that’s a lot of fun.
And that was a part of this process, EF of it I had never even thought about. I’m sure this is something you’ve done so many times in your career and I’d love it if you would talk a little bit about, you know, what your experience at the screenings is. Because for me it’s just so much fun to be able to feel the audience’s excitement and answer their questions and.
Kind of almost see the experience through their eyes of watching it by the interaction with them.
Lenny Gibson: Absolutely. I mean, I mean, it is fun and that’s the whole reason why we do it. [00:45:00] Um, I always try to promote doing screenings. I mean, in part because they are communal events. Um, it, there’s nothing like being in a, you know, being in a dark room with a hundred people that don’t know you.
But you know, if, if it’s a comedy and they’re all laughing at the same time, or a horror film and they’re all jumping at the same time or crying at the same time in a drama or, um, or just experiencing something like, uh, holotropic breath work vicariously through the screen, it’s, um, that’s why you do it.
And there’s something very interesting that, that, um, it’s very, it’s a very different experience watching this film alone. Then watching in a, in a group of people, it’s really meant like a lot of films meant to really be enjoyed by groups of people. So, um, yeah, that’s one of the main reasons why I do it, is to, is to get this kind of payoff of groups, of people experiencing what you’ve created, uh, with all these other [00:46:00] folks and to all just celebrate it and enjoy it together is, uh, is really nice.
And it’s a communal, it’s a communal event.
I thought it was very interesting when we showed the trailer at Exeter, and there were many people, filmmakers in the audience, that they started asking, well, how do you do this Mustafa? How can you do this? How can you be with people without objectifying? Because so much of ordinary films are about objectifying.
They’re not about being with people, they’re about looking at people and
Lenny Gibson: Well, you invited us in, you invited, uh, my partner, Jethro, uh, waters and I in to be part of the weekend, be part of the sessions and not separate from it. And I [00:47:00] really, um, thank you for that. And Elizabeth, you said, no, you have to be part of it.
I originally said Well be flies on the wall, but, um, but the right way to do it is to be part of that. And, um, and yeah, that’s the, that’s the whole point. And to have both, both the jetro and I go through the breathwork session ourselves and to film that is, uh, is, you know, just worked out perfectly for this because we were willing to just be like everyone else in your feelings, in whatever your stuff is that you.
Have inside your head and just letting it all out and um, and just being in a situation where everybody is sharing, you know, whatever they want to share or everyone’s experiencing this very, very personal moment, um, but within community, which is really quite special.
And I think that makes, to me, that makes this film unusual.[00:48:00]
Lenny Gibson: Well, what you and Elizabeth do is quite special, quite unique. Um, you know, not many people do this in the world and actually only you two do it like this. Um, well, but you do it too Mustafa and yes, I’m happy to do it. Um, but having, having
done it with you, I think I like to feel like we were part of the creation.
Lenny Gibson: Absolutely. You are. Absolutely.
Um, and that is the. That that’s the ultimately been the ultimate rewarding aspect of this for me, is to participate with you and be part of, and avail your expertise without feeling that we were creating something out there, but that we’re all together.
Absolutely.
And that togetherness is, is what I [00:49:00] crave.
I mean, it’s the big thing that’s missing from the world, especially contemporarily that you get. That’s what main reasons
why I make films is to Yeah. Community interview with all these other people. And, um, and you know, what’s funny is that by whether it be a narrative or, or a documentary, people get real very quickly.
If you give people that space to do that, and to some degree they’re, they’re ready for that. Uh, the interview format does that. Um, you know, and it’s, uh, and that’s really fun because you get to know all these people without the small talk just to get right to, you know, how are you doing, how are you really doing?
How’s your soul doing? You know, and that’s what it’s all about. Um, so I, I enjoy that in filmmaking in general. And, um, it allows me to feel less existentially alone in the world too.
Yeah. Which is a, it it’s [00:50:00] hard to get to that place. And it would be nice if the promise of AI is such that we all have a lot more leisure and we can get really into Macon Phillips and, and, and, and, and playing in, in musical groups and.
You know? Yeah. Because that’s, it was like being part, it’s been like a little bit like being part of a band.
Absolutely. That’s the vibe.
Elizabeth Gibson: And I was trying to say earlier, but I was muted. Sorry about that. Um, but it was also for me, an empowering experience in that, um, some of us were nervous about being filmed and I had never really had an experience of being, well, I never had had an experience of [00:51:00] being filmed like this, but it was such a golden opportunity.
And Mustafa, you have the gift of making us feel comfortable and at ease and engaging us in conversation. And I felt like you helped me become more articulate. About what it is that I love about this work and why we do it. And as a result of having walked through this process with you, I feel like I’ve developed even more clarity about why this has been my life work really, and Lenny’s life work and our work in the world together.
Kyle Buller: Can you say more about that? Like Yeah. Why is it your life work?
Elizabeth Gibson: Well, it’s our, it’s my life work. I knew on that first breath work Halloween experience that [00:52:00] for me personally, it was such a valuable session and I have learned something very special about myself in that I had a capacity within myself for.
A deep sense of who I am as a person that I could have, I could have totally missed this capacity and never even known that I had it had I not had that breath work session. And it wasn’t unique to me. I realized it’s something that’s just part of our birthright as human beings, and I think as Lenny was mentioning earlier, that cultures of, you know, centuries past knew this and practiced this in different ways.
So personally, it became very important for me, [00:53:00] which was why Lenny and I started doing groups. I think because we wanted to help other people discover this capacity. That’s part of our birthright as human beings for knowing who we are at a very deep. Level. And then doing workshops led to people wanting to learn how to do their own workshops.
So it’s like spreading the knowledge about a very fundamental aspect of ourselves as people and beings. A gift that I think we’ve fallen out of touch with in Western culture. And I’m very grateful to Stan and Christina and all our breath work teachers for helping us remember this. Not that breath work is the only way, but it’s the way that we [00:54:00] found.
And to me, this film is a great kind of capstone on our life work because it’s helped us evolve with the work even further.
Lenny Gibson: Yeah, I wish you could have been around and
done this work when Stan was part of it, because most of the film that’s been, I mean, he’s such an impressive figure that people who’ve made film have held him up
and, and, and so the focus tends to be on him rather than the community. I, I don’t think that’s it. He’s never, he’s always said he doesn’t wanna be treated that way. [00:55:00] Um, but nobody that I’ve, nothing that I’ve seen
showed him. As he really wanted to be, as he really was and wanted to be seen, um, as he, he, he community is deeply important to him.
Mustapha Khan: And he watched the film too, right?
I think
Elizabeth Gibson: he, yeah, he did watch this film him and said that he loved the, uh, the beautiful images of the natural world that you worked into the, to try to convey some of the magic of the breathwork sessions, because connecting with the natural world is a common theme.
And most people who do breath work for any extended period of time develop [00:56:00] a deep awareness of how interconnected we are with everything. On the planet, especially the natural world. So I think it’s a great, um, way for helping to solve the ecological crisis if we can get enough people to, to do this kinda work.
Lenny Gibson: Evolution is moving in this direction. Um, it’s lured, it’s not driven, but it’s lured towards a, wait, I say towards something beautiful. It’s lured towards beauty. Um, but the addition of hot and cold running water to the human experience has made the human experience much more pleasant
and, um. [00:57:00]
Kyle Buller: So question something that I feel like is a big theme here that everybody’s bringing up is community. And I think about the container Lenny Elizabeth in which you’ve created really kind of fosters that a bunch. Um, I think I might have mentioned on the podcast here and there, it’s like, you know, I think coming to the workshops started to become less about breath work, but more just about the community that you really started to, to create and, and foster there.
And a lot of folks kind of talk about breath work more from this kind of like mental health trauma perspective. Like, we really need to like release these traumas. All this. But from what I’m hearing in like this, this conversation, you guys are really emphasizing community. And Lenny, you’re also bringing in like this philosophical component about getting to just know your experience.
And does that always need to include. Reliving traumatic things or is it, you know, something different. And so it sounds like you guys are [00:58:00] approaching this in a much different way than maybe how other people have approached breath work. Um, in, in a, in a, in a way that now you kind of see now in culture.
Like you see some of this stuff where it’s like really big catharsis and it’s really focused on like the trauma. And from what I’m hearing throughout this, this talk, it’s like the community, the curiosity, the understanding of oneself coming together.
Elizabeth Gibson: I think, I think curiosity is also a really important word, Kyle, because we, we, we try to, um, encourage people to be open and not come with any particular agenda to the breath work experience.
The community part kind of takes care of itself. But if you come to a breath work session with an idea that you need to work. On any specific thing or some difficult relationship or something that happened to you in your past. I mean, all of that can come [00:59:00] up, but the idea is to recognize your expectations and try as much as you can to just set them aside, because otherwise you might miss what’s trying to emerge spontaneously from a deeper place in yourself, which is where I think the magic of the breathwork session really happens.
So not to see it, not to see the experience through any particular lens, but always to try to be as open as possible even after the session in terms of how you look back on it, to continue to unpack it over time and be open to additional insights that you get as you look back on it. Um, from the perspective you gain as you get older, like you guys must have figured that out by now.
Joe and Kyle, you’ve been doing breath work [01:00:00] for enough years, and I know Kyle, you wrote so much about your near death experience in the early years, and I just think of all of the insights you’ve had about that over time and how many people have been listening to your story and so interested in it and how it’s evolved over time.
Lenny Gibson: Werner Heisenberg, the guy who invented in quantum mechanics and one of the greatest scientists ever in the history of the world, talked about his, I’ll send it. Purpose was to have a personal relationship with the world,
to have the relationship with the world at large as you have the most intimate relationship with another human being, [01:01:00] and then you’re, you’re completely at home. You realize you are at home no matter where you are. It’s all we, we all live here and we all have this incredible family that we really need to get to know.
The more we can get to know it, the happier we are.
Elizabeth Gibson: I think the film starts with some comments about home, right? Yeah.
Mustapha Khan: Which makes sense.
Lenny Gibson: Mm-hmm. Being home. Being home and home.
Uh,
and if everybody could be, the more people it can be at [01:02:00] home, the the better off the whole world will be.
Um, then we’re working towards it, but it’s gonna take a while.
And I think it’s possible. I think it’s possible.
Um.
Glad to hear you’re optimistic, Lenny. ’cause uh, a lot of people feel like the world is a pretty dark place right now. Yeah, well,
there’s no, there’s no future in that. There’s no future in despair. Optimism is the only place that has, is the only thing that has a future.
Kyle Buller: I will say when I was in like my nihilistic kind of [01:03:00] perspectives after my, uh, near death experience, the despair was really heavy, really dark, and things didn’t change until I started to get more optimistic and see hope and light. Um, but yeah, hanging out in that darkness, it starts to weigh pretty heavy and, you know, so I try to be as optimistic as possible nowadays, even though sometimes it feels like utter chaos right now.
Lenny Gibson: Well, evolution, the evolution of our species depends on that optimism. Yes. Depends on the population that wants to keep moving us forward and not despairing. Um, so it’s, uh, it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be optimistic in that way.
Joe Moore: A favorite title of a book of mine is Timothy Leary’s, confessions of a Hope Fiend.
And I think like there’s just something about optimism that helps flip the script. And if we don’t have an optimistic headspace, what are we doing? You know, optimists are, you know, pessimists don’t really start [01:04:00] businesses. They don’t really start big projects, right. But if we can’t flip into, oh, maybe this will be even, even for a moment, like, oh, maybe it would be really nice for me to do this for somebody else.
Make a soup for somebody, or something like that.
Elizabeth Gibson: And I do think that’s one of the, um. Maybe not, it’s not spoken of so much, but the toll of what’s happening right now just on sort of the collective feelings of people being very discouraged and feeling quite bleak, that’s taking a huge toll on all of us.
And it’s a very real thing. I mean, it’s easy to talk about hope, but how do you really get there? You know? And so I think we have to recognize that that despair is, it is part of the process. And figuring out how to, um, share our true [01:05:00] feelings with other people is what helps us, I think, feel better. And it’s not something we can figure out by ourselves.
We need other, we need to do this with other people.
A flower opens in the hope that a bee will come along.
And Tim was a little fiendish. He had a few things he hadn’t worked out.
Joe Moore: It’s right in the title Hope fiend. Yeah.
Yeah,
Joe Moore: absolutely.
Elizabeth Gibson: Well, we all have things we haven’t worked out. That’s that’s, that’s the fun of, but we,
we can, we can.
Elizabeth Gibson: Yeah. No,
it’s a problem. We can
that. So
we [01:06:00] must become Angels of Hope. Flowers of hope, blossoms of hope.
Elizabeth Gibson: Hmm.
Well, it’s really special being with all of you here because of. All the times we’ve spent together over the years and to be talking about this project now. And I’m really, really grateful to you, Mustafa, for, I don’t know, you just showed up at the right time and, and we’re still doing it five years later.
We’re still like, do, doing these screenings and making new friends and going to new places. I never thought I’d be going to Santa Monica in October of 2025 to screen a film like this
Lenny Gibson: that you’re a star in.
Elizabeth Gibson: Uh, yeah. I never thought about that. That was not on my bucket list. Oh my
Lenny Gibson: God. But, but people, people [01:07:00] see you on screen and go, wow, she’s a rock star.
Oh, come on. I’m serious. I mean, the way you explain breath work, I. So Crystal clear. It, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s really,
Elizabeth Gibson: it’s easy to talk about things you love. Right? It is easy to talk about things you really love deeply. Yeah.
But five years ago we couldn’t have predicted this. No. But in five years ago,
Kyle Buller: we never thought we were gonna be able to do breath work ever again.
In retrospect, you can look back and see how it all fits together,
and that was one of Stan’s early ideas. The, as we’ve gotten more engaged in this project, I begin to see how that initial intuition he had
can, has, can be developed and make a, and and, and [01:08:00] help us be open towards the future. We don’t need to know what the future will be, but if we’re open. It will happen.
Elizabeth Gibson: Well, I’m so excited. I’m gonna have trouble getting to sleep tonight. I can tell.
Kyle Buller: And I know that’s, we’re, we’re getting at time here, so maybe we’ll start to, to wrap up, um, Mafa, do you wanna, uh, close out again and just let us know where this screen is filming and where people, if they can’t, um, you know, attend live?
Like Yeah. If people are interested in the future, what you got cooking?
Lenny Gibson: Absolutely. I’m just looking at one thing. The, um, uh, absolutely. So life and Breath is, uh, playing at the Awareness Film Festival in Santa Monica, California. And, uh, that’s at five 30 on Sunday, October 26th. And, uh, yeah, please, please come [01:09:00] out and, um, yeah, it should be.
I, I, the only other thing I’d really like to say is that. As much as I like to think the film is about holotropic breath work, you know, it’s, it’s really about the very, very special and completely unique thing that Lenny and Elizabeth do and what you’ve created in creating dream shadow in creating this community.
And, you know, your life’s work really matters to, to so many people. And to have that effect on, on, on so many people is, is just something very, um, special to be able to just sort of try to capture in a film and to show your uniqueness to people who may not be able to get to Vermont. Um, but I, I, I thank you for what you’ve created and for all that you’ve done to pull us together and that you’ve, you know, [01:10:00] influenced my life over the past several years.
And that’s a really lovely thing. It’s great to be on this ride with you.
Kyle Buller: Beautiful. Lenny, you wanna jump in there and have some closing remarks? Well,
it’s bigger than any of us.
It’s, and, but that’s what happens when you, when you do this stuff, you, you,
you remove, you, you get removed from yourself and get, I get, I feel part of something larger. Um,
Lenny Gibson: it’s,
it’s, uh, it can go on and on and on, but it’s just, it’s a beautiful [01:11:00] thing. It’s, it’s, it’s feeling the harmony. Of the cosmos
feeling that we’re doing something as Bucky Fuller once suggested, we’re making adjustments to the perfect machine because even the most perfect machine needs adjustments in the as it is on, so we are helping the universe grow. That sounds pretty, uh, I don’t wanna get swallowed up by Megalomania, but,
and hopefully others pick [01:12:00] this up. Um, but if they don’t, someone will. And this is the future.
Kyle Buller: Thank you.
Lenny Gibson: We have,
we have, we have parties and learn poll tricks instead of politics.
Kyle Buller: And Elizabeth,
Elizabeth Gibson: I am, I feel very fortunate. I’m grateful to, um, Stan Groff and our, all of our teachers, all the people who have come and shared their experiences with us and our next generation of people we’re training. We have [01:13:00] some amazing. Um, facilitators and up and coming facilitators in our community and to you guys here.
I mean, Kyle and Joe, you know how near and dear to our hearts you are and Mustafa, I just can’t say how much I’ve learned working with you and how much we value our friendship with you. So I, um, I feel very blessed.
Kyle Buller: I feel very blessed as well. So thank you all. Um, yeah, we definitely wouldn’t be here without all of your work and the impact that you’ve had on our lives. Um, think about that daily. What if I never went to that weird little school, Burlington College and met you? Um, yeah. My life would probably just look [01:14:00] radically different.
Um, probably be a, yeah. I don’t know where I would be, but yeah. So much love to all of you. It’s been a real blessing.
Elizabeth Gibson: Yeah, it’s been fun tonight. And let’s, let’s just keep doing this stuff. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Joe, you wanna close out with just thank you all. It’s been lovely. What a great film. What a, what a great experience over the past decades and, um, just really can’t wait to keep, um, keep it going.
So much love to do.
Lenny Gibson: Well, thank you for doing your work too.
Kyle Buller: Yeah. Thank you guys. And Kyle. Yeah. Yes. It’s really
Lenny Gibson: lovely.
Kyle Buller: Yeah.
Lenny Gibson: Yeah. You’re welcome. We’re,
Joe Moore: uh, we’re gonna keep it going for a long time. I think so, yeah. Thank you.
Lenny Gibson: And you’re facilitators as well?
Elizabeth Gibson: Mm-hmm.
Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah, we just had two breath book workshops up here in, um, Breckenridge, and it was lovely.
Yeah, I, um, forget how much I love doing it, so it, it’s really great. I can’t wait to do more. Thank you. All right, [01:15:00] everybody. Well, thank you all. If you’re in the LA area, check out this screening in Santa Monica. We’ll have links all up in the show notes. Um, this will come out I think, on Friday. So yeah, thank you all for tuning in and, um, yeah, appreciate you all watching.
Have a good night. Thank.
