Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to psychedelics today, Joe and Kyle today. Kyle, how’s it going? Pretty

Kyle Buller: good, Joe. How

Joe Moore: are you doing? Lovely. Excited to do this again. This is two weeks in a row. We get to stream together. Yeah, yeah. Well

Kyle Buller: many

Joe Moore: more to come. Yeah, that’s great. Um, so today we’re gonna do some kind of, uh, analysis on some news articles.

Joe Moore: We’re also gonna talk about a launch. We’re kicking off some future classes and, um, just kind of like the direction of where we’re thinking right now for psychedelics today. So excited to do that with you. Yeah, likewise. So, um, let’s talk about this past weekend. Yeah. Breath work.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. We had a nice breath work week weekend up here in Breckenridge.

Kyle Buller: Um, yeah. Really lovely group of folks. Um, and as I think we were mentioning last time, just yeah, know, it’s always a pleasure to be able to share this work with, with people. Um, and I’m just [00:01:00] always, you know, I, we’ve been doing this for a while, right? And we’ve seen all sorts of different experiences unfold, but, um, I think I’m always just still surprised about like how powerful like breathwork is for folks, um, without a substance.

Kyle Buller: Um, and so it just always, you know, makes me excited that we have this within us and techniques to, uh, and practices to be able to go inward without always needing psychedelics.

Joe Moore: I was chatting with, um, man Singh about his book, um.

Kyle Buller: Shaman. Oh gosh.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Uh, the most timeless religion or something like that.

Joe Moore: Uh, throw up a copy of the, uh, cover of the book, um, on the live stream if anybody’s watching the video that Yeah. Shamanism, the Timeless Religion. Cool. And we were chatting a lot about how he thinks that the, the psychedelic, um, kind of like dominance in these narratives, um, around like religion only coming from psychedelics.

Joe Moore: Like perhaps [00:02:00] it’s the case that Sure. Plenty do, but it’s not necessarily the case that all of them do. Right. Like you and I have had plenty of experiences. Non-drug, there were quite extraordinary. Right?

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah, through

Kyle Buller: breath work, through meditation. My dreams are always very psychedelic and really interesting, um, drumming, right?

Kyle Buller: Like there’s just so many different ways, uh, to go inward and, and have these like connections with the numan and mystical. It doesn’t always necessarily need to be through chemical, uh, means. So

Joe Moore: yeah. And, um, one of his things, um, and I was really happy to chat with him about this, that the three kind of categories that make up shamanism being kind of a non-ordinary state, interactions with the unseen world, and then some sort of services like healing or divination and mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: And that’s just like, you know, a fascinating fundamental definition, um, for like, what is shamanism? And this is definitely [00:03:00] hotly debated, but that’s kind of what he landed on for his book and Right. I just love that.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Because it is an umbrella term, right? Like shaman shamanistic practices look different cross-culturally.

Kyle Buller: Um, but yeah, there’s, are those kind of like universals, like, you know, entering into trance states. Um, also, yeah, I think that service is a big portion. It’s like, why are you going in there? And then how are you bringing it back? I remember when I was chatting with my one teacher, um, years ago, he had a long talk with me about like service and community when doing this type of work.

Kyle Buller: It’s like, why are you doing this? Are you just doing this for yourself? Or are you doing it for the community that you’re in? And like, being of service. Um, and I think that’s also a really important point because we can kind of get caught up in the transcendence of the experiences and wanna just keep going back.

Kyle Buller: Right? And then it becomes a little self-indulgent, maybe a little bit of bypassing instead of yeah, bringing it forward to the community in a way, whatever way that is.

Joe Moore: Right. Um, and this concept [00:04:00] of the magic is already within us. Like the wonder is already within us is kind of like a concept that I love from breath work.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. And like, you know, we don’t necessarily need that magical plant or that magical person. You know, I’ve been kind of being a little shitty about this calling, like, you know, shamans like kind of interchangeably calling shamans magicians. Mm-hmm. To like kind of just say like, there’s not much difference, you know, and like sometimes diminutive, and I’m apologize if I’ve hurt anybody’s feelings here, but just trying to make a point that like you have this already in you and doesn’t necessarily require some powerful person with other worldly abilities to do it for you, with you.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Thus breath work.

Kyle Buller: And it’s interesting just thinking about like how like psychedelic ceremonies and plant medicine ceremonies have like shifted over the years and I wonder kind of like where we’re going as a culture when it comes to these like practices and [00:05:00] techniques, right? Like before it was the shaman, the medicine women, medicine man, um, you know, going into those realms, like having years of like, training.

Kyle Buller: Um, and maybe it’s the distinction between like. What is the shamanic role versus somebody just exploring consciousness on their own? You know, and, and maybe that’s something to, to like, you know, differentiate of like how somebody is like working with these states. Um, but yeah, now a lot of people have more access to it, right?

Kyle Buller: Like before it was like the shaman going into those trans states and bringing healing, or I always like Martine Tels, um, definition of a shaman. He’s like a spiritual lawyer trying to make contracts between this world and, and the spirit world. Um, and like just trying to figure out what’s going on. You know, traditionally that’s also kind of like how things were done and now, right?

Kyle Buller: We all have like our autonomy to, to go in there with these medicines and with practices and stuff like [00:06:00] that. But does that mean by just going in there, does that make everybody a shaman? Um, and I think that’s a interesting question,

Joe Moore: right? Like there’s. I think, I think the term is useful in some ways and not useful in other ways.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and we kind of got into that and it’s a really fun thing and I advise everybody to listen to that podcast. It’s really great. I’m excited to dig into it. Yeah. Hopefully next week if I can get it together. Um, but it’s really, really great and I’m excited about the book and I think even, uh, somebody in kind of the psychedelic press UK orbit wrote a review.

Joe Moore: Um, so if you don’t have time for the book, you could check out the review. I think it might have been Mike J who I love his work. Um, masculine book, right? Yeah. Masculine. So many others too. Um, I’m negligent. I need to catch up on his stuff too. So, um, I could say that for the rest of my life, I guess endless.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Which I’m thankful for. But yeah, breath work. It was so good. It was [00:07:00] so good to just be with people again here in our hometown so we, you know, don’t have to travel super far to do it. We have people come to a really beautiful place. Um, we well rested, you know, having to be in our, you know, our own bed.

Joe Moore: This is amazing. And then, you know, we show up really fresh and people can kind of explore nature here. Just gorgeous woods and mountains and kind of at the peak of autumn too, this past weekend.

Kyle Buller: It’s definitely peak foliage season, which is nice. Um, and yeah, it, it has been really nice kind of doing this like in the hometown versus, you know, I’ve been on the road like for the past like two years, well, I guess the past year I’ve been a little bit more settled.

Kyle Buller: But yeah, running retreats all over the place, doing stuff in like, you know, all sorts of different parts of the world. Um. Not sleeping in my own bed, you know, getting, I got really good at sleeping in hotel rooms and other people’s beds. I was like, oh man, this feels like a skill that I can finally get like a good night rest somewhere else.

Kyle Buller: But, [00:08:00] um, yeah, it just felt a lot different to be able to do that, like in your home versus having like travel and do all that stuff and be a little ungrounded at times or dealing with time zone differences and all that stuff. Yeah,

Joe Moore: right. It’s, um, it is really something and there’s, there’s pretty good data that if you’re not sleeping in your own bed, you’re kind of putting yourself at risk, um mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Over time, right? Like, it takes one or two or three days to, to kind of get to that kind of safety. It’s kind of like a natural survival response. So anyway, like when facilitators can show up rested, um, I think it really contributes to the, to the safety and the overall feel of it. So thanks for everybody that showed up for letting us do it that way.

Kyle Buller: Yep.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so I think, um, we’ll have some more dates in the near term. I think this time of year is a little tough for people to commit to. Um, but hopefully [00:09:00] we can do some in the winter and hopefully we can do some in the spring, maybe even in Denver. So stay tuned, everybody, if you want to do that kind of work with us.

Joe Moore: Um, and yeah, maybe, uh, anything else here or maybe we can pivot to the new project we wanna chat about.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, we can pivot.

Joe Moore: Cool. So we’ve largely funded psychedelics today through education, um, to date. And, um, the, the world is changing. How people want to educate themselves is, you know, always shifting. And as a result, we want to keep delivering amazing stuff to you all out there and keep being of service to the community to the best of our ability.

Joe Moore: And what we’ve landed on in part is. An online community, different tiers and monthly fees, and trying to figure out how to move most or all of our education over into this kind of monthly model, which I think could be really interesting. So folks don’t [00:10:00] necessarily have to show up and pay, you know, 200 $800 for individual trainings, which are, you know, high value.

Joe Moore: We’re trying to be as competitive in the marketplace of education as we can be, and often case we underprice ourselves. So, you know, I think. Just people are more accustomed to let me add this subscription on. Maybe I can just join for two, three months and, and bail. Which we hope you stay around. But you know, that’s always an option too.

Joe Moore: And, um, you know, how can we also develop community? Because I think what we saw in vital and navigating psychedelics and our whole breath work, um, careers is the value of community. Even if temporary community is amazing and mm-hmm. Having people with shared experiences on the same platform, maybe we got to know each other in person here or there.

Joe Moore: Like that really adds things to the, to the stock. Anything you want to add here about the why?

Kyle Buller: Well, the community piece, I think is the, [00:11:00] the big piece. And I think just to echo what you said about like, you know, what we’ve learned in vital, it’s like. That has felt just so amazing to get to know people, to like build a community, have people like, you know, participate in, in different ways, whether it’s coming back and like giving presentations or helping, you know, do some teaching and, and supporting that way.

Kyle Buller: And, um, yeah, I think we all crave it too, um, like finding like-minded others to be part of this path. Um, and so, you know, I think that’s another reason why we wanna do it. You know, we wanna connect with you guys too, right? Like, we wanna be able to create this community to be able to connect, hear what you guys are interested in, um, and also help to hopefully provide value through, you know, doing more of these live streams for you.

Kyle Buller: Um, you know, education, all that stuff. So, yeah. Yeah,

Joe Moore: I was thinking about, like, one of, one of my favorite ever conversations is a, a dear friend who’s a classist and, um, knows a lot about the Mediterranean and then another guy, mutual [00:12:00] friend. Now, um, there’s like a world class. Expert on the Mongols. We just hang out, hung out at dinner, chatting about, like, speculating about, you know, ancient drug trade, ancient, like, kind of pre silk road drug trade.

Joe Moore: And it was just fascinating. Um, and one of my favorite things and, and the idea is that when we get together with people in the psychedelic space, often we have overlapping funny interests that we don’t really get to get into in our day to day. Mm-hmm. Like can’t really talk to the. The banker or the grocery store person about this stuff.

Joe Moore: But, you know, niche interests really feed our soul, right? Mm-hmm. Like that’s why like the Star Trek conventions have such a big, you know, fan base and they’ve grown forever. And same with psychedelic conferences. Like people go ’cause they wanna talk to the other people. Um,

Kyle Buller: yeah, and like, just like what kind of friendships and connections come outta that?

Kyle Buller: Like I think about like, yeah, the connections we’ve experienced in Vital or the students have experienced among one [00:13:00] another, and it’s like, you know, we haven’t, I guess, necessarily been doing that for our general PT audience, um, because we’ve been just so focused on vital, um, and continuing to be, but wanting to expand that.

Kyle Buller: And yeah, just seeing a lot of the connections like Blossom out of that. It’s like always really nice to see people from like cohort one still mix and mingling or like thinking about, um, the pizza party that we had at Psychedelic Science, like, you know, we have like 50 plus people there. It was like really beautiful just to see people come together.

Kyle Buller: Um, the friend and again, the friendships, the collaborations, like everything that’s kind of like blossomed out of that and it’s like, yeah, how do we bring that to the larger audience for you that, you know. You’re not gonna sign up for vital, right? It might be a big investment. It might be, you know, time that’s not your path.

Kyle Buller: Um, but you still wanna connect with others, right? You still wanna like meet other people, make friends those connections, chat about stuff. So, you know, we’re depending on, uh, doing yeah, more of these live streams q and as. Um, depending on the tiers, open [00:14:00] office book clubs, um, we’ve always had a really great time running those book clubs in Vital, so it’s like, yeah, let’s do it for the, the larger, uh, PT audience as well.

Kyle Buller: Um, yeah, and then, yeah, some of those top tiers, you get small group access, maybe one-on-one calls with us. So,

Joe Moore: yeah. And I’m excited to bring film, film, clubs and certain levels of art to the table. So, um, getting kind of behind the scenes conversations with psychedelic artists and, and sending some of the tears.

Joe Moore: Art. Um, I also love the idea of, um, figuring out together how we actually want to discuss psychedelic film, like documentaries and then literal like. Films that are heavily influenced by psychedelics. I’ll say two off the cuff that I want to include, like Blueberry, which had an alternative. Yeah, I forget the name.

Joe Moore: I forget the other name. And then there was a, I forget it

Joe Moore: too.

Joe Moore: Um, like everything by Jurowski, obviously, but then, uh, come on, enter, enter the Void. Have you seen that one? [00:15:00]

Kyle Buller: That was big during my college years and everybody was like talking about it ’cause of the crazy DMT scenes and stuff like that. Yeah, that one’s really wild.

Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s, uh, you gotta buckle up for that one. I, I came in cold to a friend’s house, like right around the time it came out and I was like very stressed out, but gripped the whole time too. Mm-hmm. Um, thankfully only seen it once, but yeah, there’s so many films coming out. There’s so much art coming out.

Joe Moore: There’s so much room for us to get together and talk about niche things, um, and help. Co evolve and co-create the future of psychedelic. You know, that’s, I think the name of the game here. Somebody asked me yesterday, like, what is the future of psychedelic community? And it’s like, oh God, you know, like I should have some special insight on this.

Joe Moore: And I don’t know, but I, but I think it’s people finding friends, finding really deep connection and then developing community around that if you can. Mm-hmm. Um, and it’s not necessarily like there’s gonna be [00:16:00] one big psychedelic community that everybody gets along. I don’t necessarily know. No,

Kyle Buller: you need, you need your diversity of community, right?

Kyle Buller: Whether it’s this like larger online community, your local community, different interests. Like, I just think about like, yeah, the different communities I’ve been part of. Like some, some of ’em are just radically different than psychedelics, right? Like, and I think that’s healthy.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So in time, I hope that we can really, you know, get a number of folks in here.

Joe Moore: And this can be how psychedelics today can support you, support, you know, community can support us. And, you know, this is our job, this is what we do full-time, and we want to keep educating as much as possible and putting out as much free stuff as possible and cheap stuff as possible. Because, um, that’s really been our core, like 90 plus percent of what everything we’ve done has been free.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah. And we love that. It’s just like we, I think we just want to keep doing that. But yeah, it’s [00:17:00] also very unsustainable to just give things away for free all the time.

Joe Moore: So if you support that idea, support us and we can hopefully keep, um, keep that going and also do more and eventually build team and, and keep, um, putting more and more out because there’s so much left to discuss here.

Joe Moore: So much left on the table for us to get into for, you know, the whole thing. Like how do we do this safe and safely and legally? What is, what even is safety? Um, what are the actual legal risks? Um, how can we operate in different countries? You know, is that the right move? Um mm-hmm. And what even does like a really, really safe personal practice look like that, you know, if you don’t have the, um, the privilege of doing it in community, what can you do privately?

Joe Moore: And then how do you build community that’s like, there’s so many things. Like what other kind of topics do you think would be useful for folks for us to like, to get into and develop?

Kyle Buller: Um, within like what we’re [00:18:00] doing,

Joe Moore: psychia generally stuff that we can support.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Um, yeah, there is so much, right? Like this is such a multifaceted field.

Kyle Buller: Um, my mind, it always kind of goes towards, I think we’re chatting about this last week, just like the whole technology development. And I think. You know, that is reason to be, I think, more connected. You know, I keep reading all these like studies about like our disconnection from nature, how alienated people are.

Kyle Buller: And I think, you know, that’s one big lesson I’ve taken away from psychedelics, right? It’s like, you know, being able to connect with nature, connect with others, everything’s like interconnected and you know, we are at this like convergence point, um, with like, you know, society, humanity, with like, you know, the way things are going, the technology.

Kyle Buller: It’s like also how does psychedelics help navigate us through that? Um, like is it a grounding rod at times or helps us to like, give some insight? Um, you know, I was just thinking, um. No, I brought this [00:19:00] up last week, but kind of digging back into like all Terrence McKenna stuff again. Um, he just kind of keeps popping online and the stuff he was talking about, you know, like back then, uh, it’s kind of where we’re at now.

Kyle Buller: Um, what he was talking about with like the internet and like computers and artificial intelligence and just like, man, yeah, he was talking about this stuff in the nineties and like, you know, how did psychedelics also impact that, you know, for him? Like, did they kind of like help him develop these ideas, think about it differently?

Kyle Buller: Um,

Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Yeah. So what was, what were some of the lines? Uh, computers of the future will be drugs and drugs of the future will be computers, is another McKenna lion around this. And you know, I guess let’s talk about that, like this idea of grounding and like in what ways, and this is kind of speculative and kind of going on a little tangent, but like in what ways can psychedelics actually be that grounding rod?

Joe Moore: Like, and then in what ways can they be kind of like the. Um, instigator for, [00:20:00] um, flights away from Nature.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I think about this like, and I think this is something I’ve struggled with, um, and maybe Terrance also struggled with it too, with like maybe some of his experiences where my previous ex like experiences, I’d have these like deeply kind of like technological type of experiences.

Kyle Buller: Like, you know, Terrence talked about like the machine world, right? And it’s like you could see the future in which if we continue to develop that stuff, maybe that’s where we’re heading to. But then also at the other side, it’s like. Wow. The more, like, I hate looking at my phone on psychedelics, you know?

Kyle Buller: I’m like, I want to be so far away from that thing. It feels like, I don’t know, it just feels like it sucks a soul out of me. Um, and, you know, just staring at a screen. And so that helps me just to ground in nature more, helps me to like, think about my relationship, um, to technology and like, you know, where do I wanna spend my energy?

Kyle Buller: Um, but it’s also interesting right now that, you know, [00:21:00] this is how humans communicate, right? Like we communicate largely online in text, um, through, you know, these types of means. Um, and yeah, I think it’s something to consider, you know, because yeah. And some of this research that’s coming out around just like the loneliness epidemic and or disconnection to nature, and, you know.

Kyle Buller: I keep hearing all these folks talking about like, um, how human experience might be a job, um, in the future. Like paying somebody to go on a walk. You know, I hear Gary v talk about that sometimes, and I’m just like, yeah, are we gonna be so hooked in where it’s like we are looking for like human connection and we’ll be willing to pay for that in a way.

Kyle Buller: Um, and to me that’s kind of sad, but I don’t know.

Joe Moore: I remember how, um, kind of appalled people are when I, when I show them like the app job simulator or, which is just amazing. But the concept is just, [00:22:00] you know, something similar to that. It’s like robots wanting to like, experience what human life was like.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and like, you know, it’s a jokey app, but there’s some truth there. Um, and that’s, that’s interesting. I wonder, I don’t, that’s a little too futuristic for me for right now, right? That that whole concept of paying somebody to go for a walk, but. You know, I shit like I, stuff stuff is getting stranger with AI and, and robotics and I don’t, I don’t understand what’s gonna happen.

Joe Moore: I think that, I don’t think any of

Kyle Buller: us do. I, I think even the people that like have invented it Yeah. Are kind of like confused about like where it’s going.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. So like how do we, how do we kind of just get grounded in ourselves, in nature, in our community and, you know, build the things we wanna build, whatever that is.

Joe Moore: You know, I remember there was kind of like this weird, uh, yet again, Margaret Atwood kind of apocalyptic trilogy called [00:23:00] ORs and Craig. And there were these kind of like post-apocalyptic survivors called God’s Gardeners and they made a whole cult of, um, you know, kind of permaculture survival, but kind of like biotechnology and like, um.

Joe Moore: They, all the Saints days were like, you know, Darwin Day, Gregory, Mendel, like so many different like big biologists, you know, like who’s to say we can’t develop those cultures and like create culture around that. Um, and you know, get really smart. Like, ’cause I think really we need to become really smart and we don’t, it’s smarter than we are and we need it to not be only from ai.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I might be a, a, a nice segue into the creativity piece, right? ’cause we’re kind of touching on like creativity and intelligence, um, and all of our conversations in the past, how psychedelics can help like spark creativity. And I know like, yeah, you’ve mentioned it quite a, a you know, we’re dealing with these problems where we need creative [00:24:00] solutions.

Kyle Buller: Um, and like, how do we develop more creative solutions? Um, you know, is it gonna be just like. It’s funny. Yeah. Your, your, your comment the other day, contacting the Oracle, um, you know, contacting like GPT, um, you know, ’cause I feel like a lot of us use it, right? Just for like, creative endeavors, like asking questions and stuff like that, you know, or, you know, are we kind of, uh, moving past some of our uniqueness of being human, uh, with that creativity and, and how do we spark that if we get too reliant, um, on, on that?

Kyle Buller: And, you know, I think what, there has been some research coming out of like MIT around, um, like some cognitive decline or creative decline when you become too reliant on it. Um mm-hmm. That was creepy,

Joe Moore: right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah. Before we go too deep into this, just if people wanna check out what we’re doing with our community, psychedelics today.com/navigators, we’re gonna talk about it a few more times though.

Joe Moore: So [00:25:00] Yeah. Like, historically in the psychedelic arena. The, the stuff out of, um, Fatman and Harmon’s work, um, back in Palo Alto, uh, Harmon was kind of the lead on that. The idea was that they would get together people who are stuck on creative problems for, um, what was it, at least six months, maybe a year and a half.

Joe Moore: And then they would, you know, have a really tight container about, um, administering psychedelics to, to help them solve those problems. And, um, people would come out and solve the problems. And so that, that is kind of like the historical thing and they had a lot of success there. Um, and then, um, we’re, we’re seeing Center for Minds kind of pick this up and try to like figure out the fundamental neurological stuff.

Joe Moore: Like what is creativity in a really, really micro, um, neurological context. It’s kind of how I’m seeing it. Like okay, [00:26:00] and that, so we need to understand what that is and then we can see if psychedelics. M interact with that thing. Um, but creatives kind of, you know, schools of design kind of have their own metrics already that the, that Center for Minds isn’t necessarily interacting with yet.

Joe Moore: So I think that’s kind of an interesting opportunity. Um, all right. And then, so today we’re gonna talk about this study. Um. Let’s pull that up. I’m gonna try to put it on screen, Kyle. Yeah. But what, what did you, can you kind of set the stage, like describing this study?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. So there was a study that, um, was just published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, which starts to kind of challenge this widespread assumption that psychedelics enhance creativity.

Kyle Buller: And so they did a doubleblind randomized design study. Um, and, but they used kind of like a pharmac was, uh, so it was a DMT plus harmine, um, which was against Harmine alone. And the placebo conditions. Um, and some [00:27:00] of the things that they found out was that it necessarily may have not increased certain types of thinking and creative, uh, processes, uh, that like, you know, maybe we think that is happening, um, during the experience.

Kyle Buller: And I thought that was like pretty interesting to, to read. And again, you know, the, some of the limitations there was like all white, uh, men participating in the study. Um, you know, generally a small sample size. Um, but, and you know, uh, the kind of like the Woca mix, like, you know, is that, you know, I mean Fatman was what Exploring LSD, right?

Kyle Buller: Right. So it’s like you didn’t wanna test some of these other substances here. Um, but um,

Joe Moore: did you catch what school they were at? Oh, Dresden interesting. Um, and then Zurich. Yeah. So, you know, like, I think. In support of the research. Like we have to have baselines like this. You [00:28:00] know, we have to have kind of like, yeah.

Joe Moore: Doesn’t look right. Doesn’t look like we’re gonna do this. And I, I remember Robin Carhartt Harris saying a few years ago, some things along the lines of like, do you really want to be consuming psychedelics before you do x, y, Z tasks? And he is like, based on my data a little bit above microdosing isn’t necessarily gonna be helpful for a lot of things.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, I think that’s kind of a little bit clearer in the data now, but also this is, you know, how do, how do you make a creative breakthrough? And I think this is kind of like setting the stage for us to like develop this as a field, right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yep.

Joe Moore: So they did the DMC in harmony and pharma was thing and Yeah.

Joe Moore: That’s interesting.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Macro level, divergent and convergent thinking and. Macro level creative process dynamics. Yeah. Be interesting to have these folks on to talk about it.

Kyle Buller: I think we should. Yeah. Because Right. That’s [00:29:00] been a lot of like our talk track too, like talking about like the creative aspect.

Kyle Buller: Um, again, you know, it’s like a small sample size. Um, but I did find it interesting Yeah. That like, um, I think the study’s results revealed disconnection between subjective experience and objective performance. So while the participants reported feeling more creative and insightful under the influence, uh, their actual performance on creativity, uh, told a different story.

Kyle Buller: Um, so that’s interesting. Right? It’s like, I think, um, Terrance McKen of talked about how psychedelics like foster funny ideas and Right. I think like when we’re in those experiences, like some of those ideas feel really creative and genius, but then it’s also, you know, how many of them. Are actually really great ideas.

Kyle Buller: Um, and can you actually maybe also move those ideas forward? Um, does it also sound like yeah, there was impaired problem solving? So it, uh, significantly impaired convergent thinking, making participants [00:30:00] worse at structured problem solving tasks, which is like interesting compared to like the Fatman stuff, right?

Kyle Buller: Because it’s like you had somebody, you know, you had these scientists that like, um, were really kind of struggling with problem solving and then being able to kind of dig in. And it also kind of challenges the narrative that we all hear too about, um, you know, Steve Jobs, um, you know, Francis Crick, Carrie Mulli, and all these folks that have like, made these creative breakthroughs.

Kyle Buller: Um, you know, and them talking about how impactful their psychedelic experiences were, um, for some of those creative insights.

Joe Moore: Right. So I think, yeah, I think we owe it to, to ourselves and our community to really dig into that one a little bit more. And, um, I’ve always wanted to, I think this is something that we’re kind of really uniquely positioned to chat about.

Joe Moore: So let’s, let’s see what we can do.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I don’t know. Have you feel like you’ve been really [00:31:00] creative, like on psychedelics? Um, where it’s like been useful? I wanna say yes for me, but

Joe Moore: like, it depends on our definition of creative. Well, maybe that’s an

Kyle Buller: issue too, with the study too. It’s like, how are we defining that?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Do you remember a Whitehead’s definition of creativity?

Kyle Buller: Um, I could pull it up really quick. Um, um,

Joe Moore: uh, so here we go. In his categorical scheme, in process and reality, Whitehead explicitly states creativity is the ultimate behind all forms, inexplicable by forms and conditioned by its creatures, uh, a k the individual actual entity.

Joe Moore: So there’s a lot there that’s like probably not too easy to understand. Um, but it’s kind of like, uh, hinting at potential is what I [00:32:00] see. And like, how do we actually kind of, um, understand that there’s so many potentialities before they’re actual right? And by when we start making decisions, we kinda like collapse that tree of potentiality.

Joe Moore: And, and, and the tree of potentiality kind of keeps going in kind of big, eh, nearly infinite ways. Um, but what did, what did you find here?

Kyle Buller: I was just pulling something up, um, that I posted on our vital community actually, um, because we were talking about creativity, um, and psychedelics. Um, somebody, uh, did a presentation on kind of like, uh, creativity and flow and psychedelics, and it was really interesting.

Kyle Buller: I pulled up, I started researching creativity, and then I started finding all this stuff that like, um, Whitehead might have been, uh, you know, the c. Like the person that kind of like coined that term. I thought that was fascinating. I was like, [00:33:00] what? Um, right. But, but, uh, this is from Michael Hay, Hal Hay words, woods.

Kyle Buller: Sorry, I’m totally butchering your name. Michael. Um, so he wrote, uh, Whitehead’s development of the word creativity. Uh, namely that he coined this very term, uh, this bearing, repeating prior, uh, to his use of the word creativity and religion in the making in 1926. Uh, this word was not, uh, extent in the English language.

Kyle Buller: Creativity is a term of Whitehead’s own devising in 1925 in science in the modern world, and a year or so before his first use of creativity. He instead used the term creativeness, um, but not on, but only really in 1929 in process and reality, um, that he fully adopted the term creativity, um, as best expressing the mode, um, character and ubiquity of the role of novelty within existence.

Kyle Buller: [00:34:00] Um, so that’s interesting. Expressing the mode, character and ubiquity of the role of novelty within existence and its notion of novelty, which is key. Creativity is the principle of novelty, an actual occasion of novel entity, diverse from any entity in the many which unifies. Thus, creativity introduces novelty into the content of the many, which are the universe.

Kyle Buller: Uh, destructively. The creative advanced is the application of this ultimate principle of creativity to each novel situation. It originates.

Joe Moore: Makes me Whitehead

Kyle Buller: terminology and all that stuff

Joe Moore: makes me think about McKenna, who didn’t necessarily get Whitehead from what I understand. But I think like this idea of novelty generation, I think there’s, I think there’s a lot there.

Joe Moore: And I think like if we go really far out, we can get some really big ideas. And this is kind of like some of the [00:35:00] terminology we’ve been using lately, right? It’s like the medium-sized ideas of what we really wanna bring back. Not something that’s so radical that we’re never going to understand what’s happening, but something that’s radical enough that it could help the community, um, and be implemented.

Joe Moore: And, um, yeah, I think like everything else always needs to be like contextually, contextually appropriate, right? Like introducing ideas that would be amazing for like the 13 hundreds and x, y, z region of the world doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the case here now,

Kyle Buller: right? Yeah.

Joe Moore: Thus novelty and creativity.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I mean, I feel like psychedelics definitely. I don’t, well I guess it’s also a bias objective perspective. Like, you know, it does create like novelty, you know? I feel like the psychedelic experience is very novel in so many different ways. Um, but I don’t know. Yeah. I’m cool. I’m interested to see if anybody else like, picks up this research and kind of [00:36:00] starts to like maybe do a larger sample size, um, maybe more reliable tests and stuff like that.

Kyle Buller: ’cause you’re right, I think it’s also, yeah. How are we defining creativity? How are we defining all this stuff as well? Um, is it also the outcome, you know, like maybe, um, you know, some of our thinking and structure isn’t really great during it, but like also doing some like long-term follow-up, right? Like maybe somebody had an idea wasn’t fully formed, but, you know, a year or two later.

Kyle Buller: Did that, you know, come into, into being in a way? Um,

Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. I think there’s so much there. Um, and, you know, so much room for improvement in science, just generally, like, I want to see more science, I want science to be radically well funded, and I wanna see people competing for ideas and competing for who’s right.

Joe Moore: And it’s kind of like one of the fun, more fun parts about it. Um, I think I’ve been frustrated about lately, Kyle, is this idea of like, um, and I don’t know how to solve this, um, but we [00:37:00] saw, um, we see people kind of creating the same data sets and they want like, really uniform and, and they’re only using it for like one trial, right?

Joe Moore: Like, um, I was reading some on autism recently and eventually autism researchers actually had like a standard set of ways of surveying people. Then they just shared all the data and they shared this giant data pool so that they could actually mine for all sorts of insights on this giant global situation.

Joe Moore: And like, how could we develop some sort of collaborative process to make science, you know, more science come out more regularly, um, at lower cost to everybody. And I, I don’t know, like I’m, I’m kind of like dreaming pie in the sky, but it has happened elsewhere is kind of the point. And I think maybe when, when, when we were kind of like deep in the, uh, early phases of the COVID situation, we had [00:38:00] similar collaboration.

Joe Moore: Right. Hyper funding from different governments, right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so we’ll see. We’ll see. Maybe we can do that. Um, so let’s talk about this other one. This one’s really fun. Um, strokes. What did, what did you learn about this stroke problem?

Kyle Buller: Yeah, this was really interesting and so there’s some studies done around using DMT, uh, to, um, and this is mostly in animal models, in, in mice so far.

Kyle Buller: Um, but how it could actually help, um, post-stroke, um, so like with inflammation and, and stuff like that. Uh, and which is like really interesting ’cause I actually chatted with somebody a while ago, um, where they were talking, I think they had a mild stroke and they started actually using mushrooms, um, to help out with, with the symptoms there.

Kyle Buller: Um, [00:39:00] so yeah, uh, some of this research where this, uh. Uh, yeah. Uh, it was published in the Science Advances. Um, and here in this article it says, the results market significant step towards, uh, a, a step forward in stroke research as current, uh, treatment options for stroke remain limited. So, researchers found that DMT offers a dual mechanism of action.

Kyle Buller: It protects the blood brain barrier and reduces inflammation in the brain, um, suggesting that it could complement existing therapies, um, or form the basis of new, more comprehensive treatments. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s really fascinating,

Joe Moore: right? Like, um, I think there is a pharma company working on this. I think they’re called, uh, Algernon Pharmaceuticals, right?

Joe Moore: Um, and I, I don’t know really anything about their status, um, but I’m, I’m just like glad it’s happening. Uh, and then. Where, where was this study happening? I [00:40:00] didn’t really recognize any of these names. Oh. At savo. So maybe this is, Hmm. I’m gonna, I’m gonna actually share this article on the screen so people can follow along.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah, it’s just really exciting to see that we’re, we’re not just, um, exclusively keeping, um, science in like this kind of couch based model, a couch therapy based model, sorry. Um, that there’s like broader horizons. And that’s really, I think, a, a thing that you and I have been excited about for ages.

Joe Moore: Right. It’s, um, yeah. You know, really great to see that it’s not just psychotherapy.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Right. There could be so many more like implications. And I’m glad like you’ve been getting loud about at court also too about like all the pain stuff and more of like physical implications with psychedelics here, um, than [00:41:00] just versus like the psychotherapy oriented approach.

Kyle Buller: Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just, I just think about like, um, you know, my uncle had two strokes and he actually I think went for stem cell therapy over in Germany years ago. Um, and just thinking like, yeah, could this be helpful? Um, and it’s kind of interesting to think about, yeah, psychedelics being, um, an application for, you know, post-stroke recovery, if it’s possible, you know, I know this is still early in animal models, but,

Joe Moore: right.

Joe Moore: Um, in this, in this stuff, I, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Algernon people are actually administering it to humans at this point. But this is a different set of research that’s happening. Um, yeah. Not like I understand any of these charts at all, but, um, you know, that’s why people have scientific training and we can talk about it.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah, so I think, um. [00:42:00] Just really excited about this. Stroke is really scary. Stroke is really common. Stan Groff had a stroke. I actually wonder if his recovery was aided by his kind of history with psychedelics. Hmm. Um, yeah, I think at a certain point folks, uh, say like, you know, after 80 they’re like, I don’t know how many more times I need to do this.

Joe Moore: Um, right. You know, I have suspicions about Albert Hoffman, but, um, who knows? Um, yeah, and I, you know, I, I, the, the diseases I make jokes, like dark jokes about me getting in the future is like cancer and stroke. So just like really happy we’re looking at it here and I think, I think there could be some interesting, um, interesting, uh, things for different cardiac events.

Joe Moore: Just seeing how, like, this is kind of. Laid out, like, um, [00:43:00] uh, maybe I think that’s a little too speculative. But yeah, I’m just, you know, happy to see this is happening. Um, I love how rigorous this paper looks. Um, it looks like it’s really contributing substantially. So, thank you authors. Thank you for the whole team that did this.

Joe Moore: Oh, look at this. So there is a little bit of a tie here to Algernon. Okay. Um, company had no role in the design of the study. Um, EF and zn, I don’t, um, we’d have to look up top to see who those are, but we. But there’s only two of the total authors had like a stake in or advisors for Algernon. It probably means they’re paid cash and or have like stock or something like that.

Kyle Buller: Algin. Are they also like working with five MEO or they just strictly DMT. Oh, I thought I saw

Joe Moore: some stuff about like, these folks never gave us money. Everybody. Um, we’re just looking it up. ’cause like this is somebody that, uh, so they’re [00:44:00] looking at Alzheimer’s, which is great. Um, their pipeline looks like they’ve got two drugs.

Joe Moore: They’ve got a DMT here. Um, you know, obviously, I don’t know, like these, these code names are just like, what, what biotechs do? AP 180 8, right? Like, what are you talking about? I think that’s just how they make patents so they can like get investors, um, yeah. To do this stuff. But it looks like they’re doing just straight up dimethyl tryptamine and end dimethyl tryptamine.

Joe Moore: Um, and then let’s see what this other drug is. Um, chronic kidney disease, so they’re doing something with kidneys, um, that doesn’t appear to be anything we know about. So, um, yeah, excited to see, um, see how they’re, how they’re looking. I think, I don’t know. Like I, I pretty sure they’re in people. Yeah. See phase one.

Joe Moore: So they’re already in people. Um, they’re about to, looks like phase two starting soon, which is wild. Um, [00:45:00] cool. So that’ll be in more people. I always think the consent conversation here around stuff like this is fascinating. Like, how are you actually getting stroke victims consent if they’re unconscious?

Joe Moore: And I, I think, um, you know, after a stroke you could be really impaired, so how are you, how are you doing that? So I’m sure they’ve worked that out. I would love to chat with them to see how they’re doing that.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I imagine they’re probably working with people that are able to give consent, but who knows,

Joe Moore: right?

Joe Moore: It could be families, right. Right. Um, but who knows? We’ll learn more in the, in the future, and this is pretty good news. Um, maps decided to finalize their executive team. So the board of directors, I think, um, named Betty Aldworth and Izzy Ali, co-executive directors, they’re no longer interim co-executive directors.

Joe Moore: This is a permanent thing for them. That’s great. Um, I, I remember a while ago, um, when they were both just, um, interim, I was like, [00:46:00] I don’t, I don’t know who they could put in that would make me feel really good about maps. Mm-hmm. Other than Izzy, um, like, because I didn’t think they were gonna keep the, uh, co-ed thing.

Joe Moore: I always thought they were gonna go for one. Right. But I was, I was chatting with Betty, who I, I really appreciate, so smart, so passionate. Been at this for so long, this drug policy thing forever and ever. Um, chatting with her, um, at the Santa Fe conference recently. She’s like, I don’t, I don’t know that I would ever actually want to be the sole ed ever again.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Of an organization. ’cause her last, um, it’s a lot thing before MAPS was SSDP, I think Ed there. And that’s like a handful. It’s a lot. Yeah. And like, um, Betty and Izzy have just a long career kind of working together too. Izzy was a, I think on the board of SSDP for a while. Um, yeah. And I, I don’t know, do you remember, do you remember this story?

Joe Moore: I, I met, um, Betty in 2017 at the Oakland conference, [00:47:00] like one of the after parties. Um, we were just like hanging out, shooting the shit. I didn’t even know who she was. I’m just shooting the shit at the back of some like, dance floor DJ thing. Um, you know, I just, um, making jokes about hula hoops or whatever and I was like dying and she was so, so great and she’s always been like.

Joe Moore: Really, really helpful to us. Yeah, so Izzy’s always been really helpful. I’ve actually called Izzy on a few emergencies and Thank you Izzy. Um, like help, I don’t know which way is up anymore. Um, like, what do I do here? He’s always been so helpful too. So just really excited that those two are leading the charge and I think their vision is really robust and excited to see what they wanna do.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, huge. Congratulations, Betty and Izzy. You guys will kill it and, um, yeah, hopefully steer the ship in, in a really awesome way.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I know it probably hasn’t

Kyle Buller: been easy in the past, like year or two, three years, however, yeah.

Joe Moore: Oh, incredible amount of work. Um, so I, [00:48:00] I know Betty was kind of like comms director for a long time at Maps, so we had some conversations and like would kind of get like, uh, embargoed news and, and things like that.

Joe Moore: And, and I, I would, I would call for strategy and, and sometimes offer my unsolicited opinion. And, uh, it was really just a, a, I don’t know, lovely relationship and I’m hoping I’m in touch with, um, somebody over there to get them on, uh, the show in the near term. And I, I’m excited about that and we’ll hopefully get some intel on, on what they’re up to in the near term.

Joe Moore: Sweet.

Kyle Buller: Awesome. Yeah, I would love

Joe Moore: to

Kyle Buller: hear some direct updates from, from those folks.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so any other news that you thought, like, interesting to point out?

Kyle Buller: I haven’t been keeping up with much of the news, uh, cycles yet. Um, I feel like I need to, you know, dig in, but you just released a whole bunch in our recent, um, email you just sent out like a bunch of psychedelic news.

Joe Moore: Yeah, this week’s, [00:49:00] um, this week’s news roundup. Let me see, let me see how I can share this list. Um, I, I just was like really, really excited to be able to do this. Um, and yeah, I found, uh, found out that it’s not, not like a really intense amount of work for me to do this and I actually appreciate it ’cause I get to stay, um, in the loop on what’s happening in the world.

Joe Moore: Um mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, there was this interesting article that just came out in, on September 2nd, so I guess a month ago. Um, I haven’t dug into this at all, so I don’t know if I wanna chat about it, but, um,

Joe Moore: go for it

Kyle Buller: sis. Scientists reveal how breath work unlocks psychic bliss in the brain. So high ventilation breath work while listening to music was associated with ports of blissful states, reduced negative emotions accompanied by increased blood flow to emotional processing.

Kyle Buller: Repeat the brain. [00:50:00] Um, so yeah, super fascinating. Um, so this was, um, yeah, so just saying breath work while listening to music may indu blissful states, um, in practitioners accompanied by changes in blood flow to emotional processing in the brain. According to a study published on August 27th, 2025, in an open access, uh, journal, PS.

Kyle Buller: OS one by, uh, Amy Amol, uh, Carter. Um, so yeah, I’m excited to dig into this one a little bit more. I’ve been just trying to dig into more breath work research. We just had a short at, well, I guess not short for online, an hour breath work session within Vital yesterday. Um, and getting a lot of these questions too around like, you know, how can psychedelics like produce these, or how can breathworks produce these psychedelic like states?

Kyle Buller: Um, so I’m excited to, to dig in, uh, to, to more of this.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I think, um, the [00:51:00] breathwork science is coming. Yeah. You already have a good amount of it. Um, but it’s, it’s coming. Yeah. So here’s just kind of like what I sent out. Um, yeah, just, just so people know what it looks like. There’s a big list of news articles, kind of mostly chronological.

Joe Moore: Um, there’s this really interesting, um, I. The fact that Hamilton was on Vice, again with Shane, I found really fascinating ’cause he is always had so many critiques about the news the Vice will put out. Um, but Hamilton was also on, um, the five cast. Interestingly, I don’t know if you saw this drama, Kyle, they actually put it up about a month ago.

Joe Moore: Um, they

Kyle Buller: took it down.

Joe Moore: They took it down, and then they put it back up. Um, on, on, uh. I think Saturday of our breathwork weekend. Yeah. Um, so I wonder what they pulled out? They were making jokes about getting sued. Um,

Kyle Buller: right. Yeah. That’s what I was like. They started off with stuff like that or they used that little like clip to start off.

Kyle Buller: So Yeah, I [00:52:00] imagine, I wonder if they were getting into some like pretty heavy things here and there that they needed to clip out, um, for li liability reasons. Right,

Joe Moore: right. You know, some people have a lot of money for attorneys. Um. Yeah. And so, you know, all sorts of stuff. So, uh, there’s just headlines, right?

Joe Moore: Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommends ibogaine for therapeutic use. So it’s looking like that’ll be coming sooner than later. Um, there is also the whole thing about Colorado requiring Nagoya compliant Ibogaine. Mm-hmm. Um, as of now, AMBIO is the only people with, apparently publicly. I got, I got kind of some funny conversations about this.

Joe Moore: The only company with, uh, Goya compliant Iboga. I’m like, eh, is that real? Like, I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve not done done enough digging, but they’re very insistent. But it’s people who are like deeply in that world. But then there’s the whole thing, like how do we get Iboga in? Um, there’s, uh, a new Iboga doc coming out really soon.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, I think later this month or in November, [00:53:00] um, that’ll be on Netflix. Um, Alaska is working to gather more signatures for their legalization bill. Um. A cluster headache study was funded psilocybin trial. It’s gonna be great. Um, but they’re using like DMT pens now. I think I told you that one, right?

Kyle Buller: I don’t think so. They’re using that for cluster headaches. Oh my God.

Joe Moore: Totally. So you have a cluster coming on at any point in the day. Could be in the middle of the night, you’re like, oh my God, this is gonna be a nightmare. How am I gonna do this? And like, I have to go eat like two, three grams of mushrooms or something, whatever the dose is.

Joe Moore: Could even be a gram and a half. But it, you know, that sucks to have to do it one in the morning to ab poor cluster. Um, and, uh, they’re having How do you even prepare for

Kyle Buller: that? You’re just like, I’m gonna, like, you don’t, you’re just like,

Joe Moore: it’s cluster headaches are so horrible that anything’s better. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: Like these, it’s so bad that often you’re just bashing your head against the wall and or killing yourself. Right? Yeah. So like it is, um, the most painful condition we [00:54:00] know. Um, it’s up there with, uh, like it’s hard to rank these things. Chronic regional pain syndrome might be on par, um, but yeah, it’s really, really nightmare.

Joe Moore: But DMT smoke it. They can go right back to bed. Aborts it right away.

Kyle Buller: So fascinating. And that seems so, yeah, like, so accessible, right? Like not having to, because I’ve had friends that would like dose for migraines, um, and they said they would take like anywhere between like two and a half, three grams like every month or something like that, just to help to manage.

Kyle Buller: But yeah, it’s also, you know, a lot like what happens if you don’t really wanna go on these like, huge trips every month, uh, just to manage like migraine pain, but to have like a shorter acting, uh, psychedelics. I hear Ds in the background there. Lower, um, yeah, like a shorter acting and accessible, right?

Kyle Buller: Just taking like a hit, like that sounds really awesome. Um, to be able to like have that as an option for people that really struggle. Do they [00:55:00] understand like the mechanism of like cluster headaches, of like what’s going on there?

Joe Moore: It is an orphan condition with not enough research. Um, so yes and no. Um.

Joe Moore: But yeah, so I, I think Yale’s coming out with some data in the near term on the d the DMT pen thing, so they’ll have even more data. Um, no, like there’s, there, it’s, it’s such a rare disease that like people haven’t really funded it all that well. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So in time we’ll get more. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll try to get somebody on to talk about that.

Joe Moore: ’cause DMT pens are really fascinating. There’s a new, um, new book on, um, one of Leary’s, um, closest confidants. Rosemary, I’m really excited to read that one. Um, yeah, what, I think you covered this, a kind of crazy amount of contaminants in Oh yeah. Um, mushrooms, uh, well, product sold as mushrooms commercially.

Joe Moore: Um, and there’s another one last week. Yeah. [00:56:00] This other one here. I think. Um, let’s see. Uh. And this one is a good headline. Psychedelics picked far more neurons than expected. Mm-hmm. There is one about, um, psychedelics not helping postpartum moms as well as we thought initially. Thought. Um, come on, where is it?

Joe Moore: Um, it’s in here. There’s just roundup. Yeah. Which is

Kyle Buller: like crazy, you know, like when we started off like doing this stuff, like it was really hard to find news articles about, you know, what’s going on and, um, I mean, yeah, it just shows the interest is really increasing, uh, over the years.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Athletes turn to band IGA for CTE and concussion relief.

Joe Moore: Um, a lot of really interesting things there. Uh, I may or may not be one of those athletes. Um, and yeah, there’s so much happening. Massachusetts is getting active again and um, that’s good. Yeah. Let’s work towards wrapping up here, Kyle, I think like [00:57:00] we have this advanced shadow work class coming up. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. So, uh, October 20th, as a Monday, we’re gonna kick off an eight week course with Dr. Ito Cohen. Um, we run this every fall around spooky time of the year. Um, seems like it aligns. Um, and we’ll cover the shadow. What is the shadow we’ll get into how to work with the shadow, um, more from yeah, this Jungian depth oriented approach.

Kyle Buller: Um, and this time around, um, you know, we wanna make it a little bit more practical for folks. Um, and so we’re gonna make it, yeah, more advanced than, uh, say in the past in, in what we’ve been doing. Um, so yeah, if you’re interested in digging into the shadow, learning how to work with the shadow, learning how to work with it with clients, um, and not just the shadow, but also the golden shadow, which maybe you’ve heard me and Ido talk about in the past.

Kyle Buller: Um. Yeah, we only have, I think a few more seats [00:58:00] left. We’re, we’re getting to capacity, so if you’re interested in, in digging into all the shadow material, um, during Yeah, the, the fall, which the shadow season is upon us soon. Um, yeah, we would love to have you there. I always love teaching with Dr. Yo Cohen.

Kyle Buller: Um, and it’s gonna be a fun class, so, yeah.

Joe Moore: Great. And then, um, finally, let’s just circle back to navigators. Everybody. We’re really excited about this navigators program and, um, I think it’s, it is kind of gonna be a huge part of the future of psychedelics today and vital, and we really want to invite you to be a part of it.

Joe Moore: There’s a number of tiers of, of getting in starts at 9 99 a month, and, and you can go up from there. Um, if anybody, uh, you know, has questions, psychedelics today.com/navigators, you can email us, ask some questions there. Um. And like info at psychedelics today would be a good way to get us. [00:59:00] And then, um, yeah, we would love to see you in the community book clubs, film clubs, regular group meetings, um, early access to content, ad free podcasts.

Joe Moore: So much more so, you know, check it out. Um, anything you want to add about it?

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I would love to see everybody there. Um, again, we’re really wanting to build out the, the community there, get in, get involved in all sorts of different ways, connect with you, host events that you guys might be interested in.

Kyle Buller: So yeah, a show saying the book club ad free podcasts. We’ll do these live streams where you can jump in and do some q and a. We’ll probably have some exclusive live streams with folks that, um, you know, you guys can do. Again, I look at the tiers, it’s all kind of tiered out that way as well. Um, and, uh, yeah, really excited to, to be launching this and developing the community on the PT side of things.

Kyle Buller: Like obviously we’ve been doing that through the podcast, through events, um, but I feel like a lot of our community building has been really focused and vital. And so to be able to [01:00:00] expand the things that we’ve learned about that, um, to our wi wider audience, for those that, you know, vital ISS a big investment that might not be part of your path, um, to really start to bring it to the larger.

Kyle Buller: Larger PT community and our supporters and listeners. So yeah, if you wanna support us, if you wanna join our community, second alex today.com/navigators and we’re excited to, to launch this and meet you

Joe Moore: over

Kyle Buller: there.

Joe Moore: Alright everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. Uh, we’ll get this out on a regular podcast soon and just really appreciate you all being part of this project that’s been amazing over the last nine and a half years.

Joe Moore: So coming up on 10 soon. Crazy. And um, good god. Yeah. Learned a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah. So thank you Kyle. Thank you everybody and we’ll see you all in the next episode.

Kyle Buller: Alright, thank you everybody. Take care.