This transcript was machine generated and may contain errors.

Joe Moore (04:15): Hi, everybody. Joe Moore here from Psychedelics Today, joined by Jordan Kronick, director, writer, and producer of “Peaking,” a new documentary out covering psychedelics. Jordan, thanks for joining me today.

Jordan Kronick (04:27): Uh, thanks Joe. Good to be here

Joe Moore (04:30): Yeah. So I, I had the opportunity to watch your film just yesterday actually, and very happy to be able to have you on to talk about it. And, um, can you give us a, a top level what, what is this film? What did, what did you put together here?

Jordan Kronick (04:46): You know, basically we wanted to explore all the major psychedelics, so not just focus on one. Um, so we looked at six. psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca, ibogaine, MDMA, toad. And the other goal, in addition to looking at all the major psychedelics, was to get cameras into dosing rooms so you could see psychedelic healing, uh, in action. so those were the two main goals in putting the film together

Joe Moore (05:21): Amazing. Cool. So, um, let’s talk a little bit about, you know, it is, uh, y- you’re showing it now, so there’s, um, a, a, a showing coming up in Denver. Did you have a premiere in New York recently?

Jordan Kronick (05:38): Uh, so just to give you the quick history of the film, we, uh, started making it in March of 2024. We finished it in October of 2025, and then we had our world premiere in June of this year, uh, in Los Angeles at the historic Chinese Theaters, uh, for a film festival called Dancing With Films. Just a great, memorable experience for all of us.

Most of the cast was there, most of the crew was there, and, you know, to have a premiere at the Chinese Theaters on Hollywood Boulevard was, uh, super cool for all of us. And then we, uh, um, started a theatrical release a few weeks ago. Our first city was Portland. Uh, second city was back to LA. Third city was, uh, New York, uh, last week.

And then, uh, this weekend we’re opening in Denver, and we hope to keep growing, uh, city by city by city.

Joe Moore (06:39): Um, cool. And I definitely encourage folks to go out, check it out if you’re in, in the area. And, um, this is one of the most awkward questions for filmmakers, like when, when can people get it like streaming or buy, buy like a, or rent it on Amazon or something?

Jordan Kronick (06:56): Yeah. So we’re, um, we’re trying to, uh, grow city by city so we can bring cast members to the cities for Q&As, try to make it a special experience in the theater for people who show up, and we’re looking at, um, going nationwide, um, digitally for Apple for rent, Amazon for rent, et cetera, probably in early December

Joe Moore (07:21): Amazing. Well, that’s pretty quick. So, you know, first off, kudos for you being able to, you know, finish March to October the following year. That’s extraordinary. Most documentaries take forever to put together, and to do it in less than two years is extraordinary. And, um,

Jordan Kronick (07:38): You know, I

Joe Moore (07:39): you know, a lot has…

Jordan Kronick (07:40): uh,

Joe Moore (07:41): Go ahead.

Jordan Kronick (07:41): sorry to interrupt you, I should say that I had great financial support from our executive producers, uh, Eric Tangelson and Tracy Tangelson, and they fully funded the film right out of the gates, so we had all we needed to go make the film that we wanted to make, which included traveling to Peru, traveling to Mexico, traveling to Israel. And they’ve also, um, you know, given us the support to do this, uh, theatrical release that we’re engaged in right now because, you know, you gotta do a lot of things to try to, uh, get the word out there with your marketing.

Joe Moore (08:17): Yeah, it’s important to get everywhere as you’re, as you’re putting this stuff out to, you know, get that traction. I’ve seen that in my own projects quite a bit. Um, so tell us a little bit about you. Y- have you always been in film and have, have you always been interested in psychedelics or MDMA?

Jordan Kronick (08:39): Um, yeah. So, so I, um, came to film through broadcast journalism. Uh, in particular, I started my career at ABC News, uh, as a producer, um, for the anchor Peter Jennings in his documentary unit called Peter Jennings Reporting. And while I was, uh, working, uh, in that unit, this was going all the way back to 2003, 2004, we made a one-hour documentary called, uh, Ecstasy Rising about the history of MDMA, uh, that Peter Jennings, uh, hosted, and it aired in primetime with an audience of 10-plus million people. that was my first project in this space, in the psychedelic space, it was a very sort of interesting, uh, time because back then, 2003, 2004, you could not say anything network television about the benefits of drugs. That was just not allowed back then. I mean, it’s still not really allowed, but it’s a little bit more permissive now as compared to back then. And in doing, uh, a story about the history of MDMA, you had to deal with, uh, why people take it, so you had to discuss the benefits of it. So we didn’t shy away from doing that. the other thing that we did is, at the time, the campaign against MDMA, against ecstasy, said– This is the government campaign.

It said that ecstasy put holes in your brain, that campaign was based on bad science. And in the documentary, we debunked that bad science, and that’s, you, you know, you may have heard the story about the scientist who gave the monkeys not MDMA but gave them methamphetamine. So that scientist, in anticipation of our documentary airing on ABC, took a second look at all of his science, found out that mistake, and had to retract, uh, his major study that was the underpinning of the government campaign against the drug. And so what happened is the government didn’t really reconstitute that campaign, and if you talk to, uh, psychedelic leaders who go all the way back to that era, like Rick Doblin, for example, he credits the documentary with opening up the opportunity for him to get approvals from the FDA and the DEA to launch, uh, his initial MDMA for PTSD studies. So he’ll, he’ll say, um, uh, that, that that documentary was a turning point ’cause it really helped sort of propel, uh, the psychedelic renaissance

Joe Moore (11:37): That’s fascinating. So 2001, I go off to my undergrad and, um, my mother calls me mid-September. “Joseph, are you on ecstasy? Have you been using ecstasy all through high school?” It was right around that kind of explosion with Oprah, um, where she was hyping those kind of bad brain images,

Jordan Kronick (11:59): Yeah.

Joe Moore (12:00): recall those.

Yeah, the, the bad science was not only amplified by the methamphetamine project, but like, uh, misrepresenting brain imaging data by contrasting it in strange ways. So really crazy.

Jordan Kronick (12:15): know, a- and it was, um, it was at a time when the government was saying to kids, you know, “It’s putting holes in your brain,” and they went so far as to say one use could lead to Parkinson’s. Now, that’s clearly not the experience of all the people that are using the drug, you know, on a week-by-week basis. Uh, so it, it really sort of puts credibility of these campaigns into question, you know? The kids way back then, they just didn’t believe what they were hearing

Joe Moore (12:48): Right. I I’ll say I wasn’t on ecstasy. I wish I was, I guess. Um, but yeah, I still don’t have Parkinson’s symptoms at this point in my life, um,

Jordan Kronick (12:59): you

Joe Moore (12:59): after more than one exposure

Jordan Kronick (13:01): Uh, so, so back then, you know, we had Alexander Shulgin in that documentary, we had Ralph Metzner in that documentary, we had Rick Doblin in the documentary. Uh, and I just made the determination back then that this– these people are so fascinating, and this space is so interesting, and it was really when it was just starting to grow. So I decided that I just need to, as a reporter, you know, keep track of what’s going on with the psychedelic renaissance and sort of periodically try to get some projects launched. So we were gonna do this film. After, uh, MAPS and, and Rick Doblin got their MDMA for PTSD study complete, the one with the sex assault victims where they were finding that two-thirds, you know, were getting their PTSD, for the most part, cured, then, you know, Rick made the smart political move to make his second study about, uh, veterans, MDMA, uh, uh, for PTSD with veterans.

And we thought at that time, maybe we’ll piggyback on that study and we’ll do this film about the psychedelic renaissance. That was sort of 2007, 2008. um, made the decision that it was probably a little bit early, that the psychedelic renaissance needed to sort of mature more, you know, before we could do this comprehensive film, uh, that we wanted to do. Uh, so, um, the, the… You know, I kept track of the space, and then my next sort of, uh, um, intersection with it was in 2020. I was, uh, working at a show, uh, at HBO called Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, and I did a story about psychedelics in sports. And that was a time

Joe Moore (14:49): Hmm

Jordan Kronick (14:50): a lot of athletes with brain injuries from concussions were, y- you know, like not getting any kind of sort of results from traditional therapy and antidepressants and were sort of at a last resort moment and decided to try psychedelics.

So I had

Joe Moore (15:06): Mm-hmm.

Jordan Kronick (15:06): in there, I had NFL football players in there, and I had an MMA athlete in there who did a hero dose of psilocybin, uh, um, at a ceremony, a pri– uh, sort of a, a secret ceremony in California. And he started to vocalize his inner monologue that was going on while he was on the psilocybin. And he had a death rebirth trip. And he speaks out loud, “Did I just die? Did I just die? I in hell? Have I just died?” So he’s literally speaking that monologue out loud of the death that he’s experiencing on the psilocybin, and then he out loud speaks the promise to himself. He says, “If I get a second chance…”

He was a, at the time, an alcoholic and a pill popper, and he says to himself, “If I get-” “I get a second chance, I promise I’ll change. I promise I’ll stop the, uh, alcohol and the pills.” So he’s making a promise to himself, to the core of his being, when he thinks he’s in an eternal hell, to maybe get himself, you know, back alive.

So, um, you know, as a, as a– That’s just incredible stuff as a filmmaker that you can, like, just, uh, you know, get your cameras in front of such dramatic experiences.

Joe Moore (16:27): Yeah. I was, uh, really amazed when I started hearing about how a, a lot of veteran PTSD, while they’re, while they’re scoring as having PTSD, it could be kind of misattributed to, to real trauma and, and could be in some cases brain trauma, uh, like CTE for instance. Um, you know, no, no doubt that just being in the military is, uh, traumatic enough, but, um, brain trauma and that goes to sports

Jordan Kronick (17:01): there’s been some reporting, um, you know, we know about the CTE issue in sports with concussions. Uh, there’s been a lot of recent reporting about the, uh, traumatic brain injury, uh, issues in the military. You know, Coast Guard, um, uh, uh, uh, captains who drive some of those boats can experience TB, uh, TBI.

Um, you know, in training, you know, like the, the, uh, munitions, uh, all the explosions that you have to be, uh, nearby can lead to TBI. So that’s, uh, that’s an issue as well for sure

Joe Moore (17:39): Yeah. I remember even hearing people that do, uh… I don’t– I’ve only done it a couple times. What is it? Um, water s- water skiing. Sorry. Yeah. And, and just, like, those micro concussive kinda like ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, like even that,

Jordan Kronick (17:58): Mm-hmm

Joe Moore (17:59): can be enough. So yeah, I was r- I was really thankful that you had that sports segment in your film.

Um, Daniel Carcillo, he, he’s been on the show at least a couple times, I believe, and, um, his story’s super compelling. Having fighters, like this, this MMA thing in America right now is getting really big, and there’s a lot of brain injury happening. Um, I think, like, the the popularization of Mike Tyson is interesting these days and complicated for a lot of reasons.

I don’t plan to have him on the show anytime, but, like, you know, talk about brain injury and, and theoretically brain injury recovery. Um, so fighters, I’m glad, are discussing it. I, I hope more and more professional athletes are taking note ’cause these guys are just, you know, their, their brains are so beat up.

There was a book recently on CTE I read, and it featured a lot of discussion around how women, um, women with concussions fare often worse. So female soccer players could even have a worse situation with brain injury and CTE than, than male athletes. So really need to look at this more. And I– What I, what I loved, um, one feature I liked in your film was the, the ability to highlight that, um, this might not just purely be a psychiatric thing.

It could be, like, organic structural, and we need to actually physically heal tissues, and this stuff seems to help

Jordan Kronick (19:33): Well, that, that is definitely, um, w- you know, the holy grail, right? Uh, can psychedelics be so neuroplastic that they can repair physiologically injury? You know, particularly for these athletes. You know, Carcillo, um, is quite clear. This is the two-time, uh, Stanley Cup-winning NHL player in the film. He’s quite clear that the, um, psychedelics improved his psychological state. You know, he was dealing with all sorts of depression that was leading to suicidal ideation. He was dealing with an opioid addiction, and he credits the psychedelics as allowing him to overcome, you know, those, those issues. Additionally, big question is physiologically, were, were the psychedelics repairing, um, the symptoms that he was having from his concussions, the light sensitivity, the memory loss, um, the, uh, slurred speech, the lack of impulse control. And, you know, he says yes, and he believes that it’s, you know, both psychological and physiological repair that’s going on.

And actually, he is, um, s- like in, in, in the process of getting a study launched at Johns Hopkins University, the foremost, you know, research institution arguably in the world, to look at, um, if psychedelics can repair physiologically people who have suffered from multiple concussions, and they’re recruiting NFL players, NHL players, MMA fighters, boxers, rugby players, soccer players

Joe Moore (21:24): Mm-hmm. Yeah. I live in a ski town, so it’s super poignant here. It’s like Concussion Town USA, um, seemingly. So wildly important in my, my space, and I’ve, I’ve suffered plenty. Um, and psychedelics, I believe, have helped quite a bit. So, um, you featured… So what I, what I appreciated was in a really tight package, you know, kinda normal feature documentary-length film, you were able to capture the broad range of topics usually discussed in psychedelics and a number of the important substances that people will consume.

How, how did you kind of, um, plan out this arc? Was it a lot of arduous work just trying to figure out what is the essence of this story?

Jordan Kronick (22:19): Well, we, we had a couple of, um, of, uh, uh, you know, North Stars or a couple of sort of guideposts that we really wanted to follow. And one of them was, don’t spend too much time on any one psychedelic A lot of projects that I’ve watched on psychedelics you know, too much time on one particular psychedelic, you know, 60 minutes talking about, let’s say, the history of psilocybin, or 90 minutes or two hours, and I think that really just appeals to a niche audience who is, you know, truly fascinated by the subject matter. Uh, so we decided that we wanted to be a big tent, and we wanted to do something that people like you, who are experts in this subject matter, would still connect to, probably emotionally because we’re telling human stories. But we also wanted to connect with people who are just psychedelic curious or people who don’t know anything about psychedelics at all.

So we felt that we had to sort of keep the pace, keep moving, don’t spend too much time on any one psychedelic, show all the major psychedelics, show the variety. So that was one guidepost. Another guidepost was, let’s look at different populations. Let’s look at– Let’s make this relatable. Let’s make this have variety.

So with the psilocybin, we have the professional athletes, uh, with brain injuries from concussions. With the ayahuasca, we have, um, combat veterans, uh, with PTSD. With ibogaine, we have a woman who is addicted to opioids, in particular fentanyl. So the idea was to look at a variety of different psychedelics as well as a variety of different types of people who use psychedelics so people could, you know, find something to relate to.

People could find an entry point. Um, and then the, you know, key guidepost was let’s, like, get the cameras into the dosing rooms, so let’s show what psychedelic healing looks like because, again, looking at previous, um, psychedelic, uh, film and TV projects, it’s often someone talking about psychedelic use in the past. You know, “I did it five years ago, and I’m cured as a result.” We felt like we needed to be immediate. We needed to show what the people were like before their psychedelic use, we could be with them in the sort of depths of their struggle, and then these are first-time psychedelic users, and then be with them, you know, when they’re using these psychedelics for the first time and see, like, the drama and the emotion of what happens in those rooms and then follow them a few months later to see what sticks.

So, so that was the approach, and, um, I, I feel like if you’re, you know, someone who really knows a lot about, let’s say, psilocybin, maybe you don’t know about ayahuasca, and you got the opportunity in the film to see ayahuasca. Or if you’re someone who knows a lot about ayahuasca but you don’t know anything about ibogaine, you got the opportunity to see what ibogaine is like in the film. So, um, a big tent, that was the, that was the goal, uh, in, in designing the way, uh, to make the film

Joe Moore (25:46): Yeah. That came across. It was good to have that kind of broad scope of, um, material sampled. So Were there any things that really surprised you as you went through making the film? I’m sure at least two things, right?

Jordan Kronick (26:05): Um, you know, like I would, I would say, uh, okay, um, as a filmmaker, looking for drama. You know? That’s what you’re always in search of. That what- that’s what, you know, uh, makes a good story, and, uh, I’ve done a lot of, um, filmmaking about sports. There’s inherent drama in sports. There’s the, the competition, there’s winners, there’s losers, there’s, you know, uh, the ecstasy of victory, the agony of defeat. with respect to psychedelics, you know, g- going into these rooms people who had never done psychedelics before, they’re gonna put this thing in their mouth, whether it’s the psilocybin or the ayahuasca or the ibogaine, and dramatic things are gonna happen. And, you know, bearing witness was really a privilege, you know, because people were… know, we start with the hockey player, Steven Johns. You know, he had a completely transformative experience in that psych- in that psilocybin dosing room, and it caused him to just, you know, cry and cry and cry for hours, and he says it changed his life forever. So, being in a very tiny room, uh, in this intimate space, watching someone go from being suicidal and already having tried to kill himself to transforming into deciding, you know, that his, like– that he wants to get the most out of his life and he wants to, like, find all the joy in living and that, like, just happening over a couple of hours and being there to witness that, that was… You know, and that happened over and over and over again across making this film. That happened in the psilocybin dosing room, the ayahuasca dosing room, the ibogaine dosing room, out in the desert when these guys were smoking toad.

Joe Moore (28:02): Yeah. And how, how did you go about picking who you were featuring just in terms of like facilitators or facilities?

Jordan Kronick (28:10): So, um, uh, you know, Carcillo, the hockey player, he’s out there, boots on the ground, opening centers in Oregon and now in Colorado, and he’s trying to bring psychedelic healing to other pro athletes. So, um, we connected with him, and through him, y- you know, it just so happened that Stephen Johns, hockey player from the Dallas Stars, who was really deep, deep, deeply struggling, called Carcillo and said, “I need help.

I wanna try this.” So we tagged along for that. With the veterans, um, Heroic Hearts Project, uh, which was a– which is a nonprofit founded by Jesse Gould, which brings, uh, combat veterans and military veterans outside of the US for psychedelic healing. He had a journey, uh, planned to bring 10 veterans, uh, to, uh, Peru into the Amazon jungle for, uh, five ayahuasca ceremonies.

So we tagged along on, on that expedition. We met all the 10 veterans beforehand and picked three that we w– that we decided to feature. Um, similarly with ibogaine, we got in touch with, uh, Beyond, the ibogaine, uh, um, therapy clinic in Cancun, Mexico, and said to them, you know, what we wanted to do and asked if they would help us find, uh, a patient who might be willing to go on camera who has, uh, an issue with, uh, opioid addiction.

Joe Moore (29:55): Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. So

Jordan Kronick (29:58): sorry, I’d,

Joe Moore (29:58): go ahead

Jordan Kronick (29:58): more. Um, you know, Bear Heart, the shaman in, uh, the desert who gives, uh, these guys, uh, the toad. You know, we, we felt that the film also had to, you know, while we’re looking at Oregon where psilocybin is legal at the state level, and we have to leave the country to show the ayahuasca with the veterans in the Amazon jungle, and we have to leave the country to show, um, Amber, the woman with the opioid addiction, uh, um, to go get the ibogaine out of the country.

We, we felt that the film needed to show that there is, you know, mass use taking place in the country underground, and that’s what the, um, toad in the California desert scene represented

Joe Moore (30:49): Love that. I think cinematically those, uh, I think you were doing drone shots in the desert.

Jordan Kronick (30:55): Yeah

Joe Moore (30:56): think that was some of my favorite in the, in the film. It was just so, so cool, like tracking the vehicle going through. Had you, had you done much drone work before?

Jordan Kronick (31:05): Oh yeah, everybody, uh, ever since– It used to be, it used to be you had to get those shots in a helicopter. So I’ve done a lot of filming in my career of extreme skiing, and that was always in a helicopter with your cameraman hanging out the open door of the helicopter to get those shots. Um, so when drones came along, you know, it changed everything.

You know, that kind of shot to get like, uh, let’s say, let’s say a couple of years ago before drones, if we wanted to get those, uh, overhead, um, aerial shots of the car driving through the desert, that would’ve cost, you know, $30,000, $40,000 to get those shots. Now that you have drones, you know, it’s a couple of hundred bucks to get those shots, maybe a couple of thousand at the most. And, you know, we definitely made a decision, um, that we wanted to be cinematic. we wanted to open the film in a really cinematic, mysterious way. And the best s– And we wanted to, we wanted to have something that felt a little bit wild, you know? And, uh, definitely, uh, Toad, uh, in the middle of nowhere in the California desert was gonna sort of give us that, that, that sort of vibe and be a, like, you know, we hope, uh, or the, the goal was, like, an intriguing invitation to come join this film and watch this film, you know?

Because, like, it’s edgy and it’s got some balls. And, uh, that’s what, that’s what we thought, uh, we tried to achieve with that, with that scene to kinda, you know, br-bring you, bring you in and say, “Okay, I’m gonna stay here and watch this film and see what, uh, what is gonna unfold here.”

Joe Moore (32:47): Yeah, absolutely. So let’s talk about toad for a moment. So, um, while I think, you know, you can’t cover everything about every substance at all in a film like this, um, toad, toad’s one of the things I keep coming back to as kind of like a really crazy topic. Like, not only is it more, um, risky or dangerous than synthetic 5-MeO-DMT, it’s, it’s also, you know, you’re dealing with effectively an endangered species.

I, I think it would be marked as endangered if somebody went and did a survey, which hasn’t been done in a very long time, um, as an independent university-led project, um, or government-led project. And, um, it’s, uh, people really think they’re, you know, this is the thing, it’s the toad, it’s an ancient practice, which doesn’t really appear to be true.

A, a lot of, a lot of things going on there. How– W-what did you think about the use of toad and, and, and do you think there’s a way to kind of spread the message about this being kind of an at-risk species from here?

Jordan Kronick (34:00): I mean, y- you know, we, we, we didn’t, we didn’t have time to get into everything, you know? For example, there are some other absences in the film, like, uh, peyote, uh, or, you know, ketamine. Not a psychedelic, but we’ve been asked that question a lot, “Why is there no ketamine in the film?” So, um, with respect to toad, we felt we had to include it in the film because it’d been described to us so many times as the Mount Everest of psychedelics. Though I should say that some people, they say ibogaine’s the Mount Everest of psychedelics. Um, but we felt that if, you know, we keep hearing this is the Mount Everest of psychedelics, and it, it, it happens, um, uh, you know, in sort of more like, uh, like, like there are sort of traditional approach… Not, not traditional.

There’s sort of more clinical approaches to taking psilocybin, you know? Like, if you look at these centers, it all kind of looks the same, right? It’s in these, like, houses or, uh, these doctor’s offices, and you’re lying down, and you’ve got your eye shades on, and, um, that’s how these, uh, psychedelic, uh, or psilocybin experiences seem to take place in Oregon and Colorado.

The toad just felt really wild to us and, and we wanted to show the, the, the far, you know, all the, like, edges of the space in all its drama. And, and we felt that, uh, we, we had to, um, you know, include toad, uh, in that way. And there’s been some, there’s been some talk, uh, you know, Bear Heart, you, you know, people, uh, the, the, the quote-unquote shaman who administers the toad in the desert.

And what I think, um, uh, you know, some people, um, wonder about him. You know, what, what are his qualifications? Um, uh, is this just a, a person who, you know, maybe is more suited for the health, wellness, and longevity scene as opposed to, to, to doing this? And, um, I can tell you that that guy is out there in the dirt on a daily basis taking people, um, uh, to do psychedelic experiences, all of the above: toad, um, uh, psilocybin, ayahuasca.

You know, if you, if you take all the clinical studies and you add up how many people have taken psychedelics in legal FDA, DEA-approved clinical studies, what do you think the number is? A couple of hundred? You know, at the most, at, at the most, it’s a couple of thousand. This guy Bear Heart, mean, he’s probably brought psychedelic experiences to thousands of people, you know?

Um, so, so he, you know… I, I just think he’s a, he’s a… It’s, it’s interesting. It’s like where, you know, there’s the, the clinical approach, um, and then you’ve got the sort of experiential approach, like which– I think they’re both, I think they both have value

Joe Moore (36:57): Yeah. For sure. I, I do appreciate that, like, showing the hyperclinical kind of administration, showing retreats in Mexico, Daniel’s retreat, and then, you know, what are people doing in the deserts of California? Like, you know, he’s not a s- a s- uh, I don’t know, I don’t know this gentleman, but, like, there’s a bunch of folks like him too, which is really interesting.

Um, and I, I think that’s a really cool use case for him as a subject in the film. Um, and yeah, some of these people have so much experience and it’s worth highlighting. Uh, and this is kinda one of the dichotomies in the ecosystem right now is where, h- how are we gonna capture some of this l- you know, uh, wisdom, learned, learned lessons, um, and make sure we can inform clinical trials and how this stuff gets rolled into medicine or, uh, multiple access pathways get maintained and, um, hopefully all of them continue to improve, right?

Jordan Kronick (38:03): I mean, yeah, again, that guy Bear Heart, I mean, he’s seeing– He says this. He says, “I’m s- I’m out– I’m in the dirt seeing death and rebirth every day.” And There’s, you know, there’s a lot of knowledge that, that accrues, uh, when you’re, you know, accumulating, this point, thousands of these, uh, you know, overseeing thousands of these ceremonies I mean, even, I would say even Oregon, you know, Oregon, I, I can’t remember the nu- I don’t know the exact number, but I think it’s more than 20,000 people have, um, gone to these, uh, psilocybin centers, uh, for experiences.

That’s a really big number. Um-

Joe Moore (38:46): Right. Yeah. The, the state of Colorado’s coming out with its, um, updated metrics in a state– in a, in a week or two. Um, I think Rocky Mountain Poison Control, uh, has been collecting a lot of data. They’re a really important national kind of science group. They’re publishing their report on Colorado’s activity really soon, so that’ll be really interesting to learn from too.

So yeah, there’s so many access pathways. The state model has given a lot of people access. Colorado, I, I think you probably know this, has a really robust decriminalization program. It’s like decrim to the point of legalization, uh, which is really interesting. Um, everybody should get a lawyer before they believe me on that, but it’s definitely opened up a lot of access for a lot of people here, uh, not needing to fly overseas, um, for access, which is super important.

Um, you did feature a little bit about this… Well, hold on before we jump. Just– I, I just wanna insist people, you know, definitely learn a little bit about the, um, sort of fiction of ancestral use of, uh, Bufo alvarius, and then also the safety issues with it, and also the, um, in- sustainability case. Um, the way Bear said you just pop the gland made it sound like it was, um, you know, harming the toad permanently.

Um, there’s, there’s, there’s some people that suggest you can do it without harming the toad, though even going in their environments can spread a, a mold that can wipe out lots of colonies of these things, so. Uh, Robert Villa is a herpetologist in Tucson who wrote some really important sustainability papers on this, so definitely go check that out, folks.

Um, and we don’t have to spend any more time on that unless you have anything to follow on. Yeah, cool. Um, and let’s see. Drug war. So making, making this film a long time ago, 2004, “Ecstasy Rising,” was that the first time you kind of, uh, saw a need to challenge drug war narratives?

Jordan Kronick (41:12): I mean, definitely, um, the first time that, uh, like I saw it from all the different ways that it’s perpetrated, you know? Um, from the, the science that’s used in the, uh, campaigns against the drugs to the law enforcement, uh, measures that are put in place to try to, you know, deal with, uh, uh, demand and supply and the, you know, activists who are sort of pushing against, uh, uh, those forces

Joe Moore (41:50): Hmm. Yeah. Um, I wish I watched it before this. Uh, I found it’s, uh, it’s fully available on YouTube. I just, I just pulled it up. I’m just like, “Why can’t I download this on any of my normal things?” And oh, YouTube, perfect. So I’ll definitely get some history work done later. Um, yeah, I-

Jordan Kronick (42:11): know, I can say that like, um, y- you know, p- like when we, uh, you know, really been tracking, you know, going all the way back to 2003, 2004, “Ecstasy Rising,” sort of the, the way that, you know, in particular Rick Doblin’s approach to sort of using, uh, c- science and clinical studies and phase one, phase two, phase three to get the, the, the foot in the door and to sorta, you know, open, um, uh, through the FDA, you know, that’s the way, uh, that’s, that’s sort of been the kinda, um, uh, the goal of the psychedelic renaissance, right?

Is this sorta national legalization through the FDA by doing clinical studies. And, uh, in deciding on the timing to make “Peaking,” it’s not coincidental that we started in roughly, you know, March of 2024, because at that point, you know, Doblin and MAPS and I guess Licose had made their, uh, they’d gotten through, uh, phase three with their clinical studies, and they had made their submission to the FDA, and it was general consensus that it was gonna be a rubber stamp, that they were gonna get the first, you know, leg- legalization federally, you know, leapfrogging marijuana. Uh, that would be MDMA for PTSD approved nationwide. Um, so we wanted to make the film to align, um, with that, uh, with, with that, um, you know, uh, pot- that, that potential outcome. That didn’t happen, of course, unfortunately. Um, and it sorta– I say unfortunately because it, we had to, we had to, um, reshift some of the, the narrative of the film, in particular in the sections about, uh, uh, the, the psychedelic renaissance history and the drug war

Joe Moore (44:16): Yeah. The– you must have learned a ton about the rejection of, um, MDMA,

Jordan Kronick (44:24): Yeah

Joe Moore (44:25): by FDA or, uh, delay is the, uh, internal terminology at MAPS.

Jordan Kronick (44:31): Right

Joe Moore (44:32): Um, but it’s, it’s interesting the… If there wasn’t a drug war for 50, 60 years, I think it would’ve been approved as a no-brainer situation.

Jordan Kronick (44:46): Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore (44:46): Um, but we’re, you know, there were also some errors made, for sure.

Um, but before we get into, like, the Resilient, Lykos, MAPS situation, I’m kinda curious, like, what, what kinda takeaways did you, did you have about drug war, Nixon? I know, I know there was some discussion around, okay, how do we, how do we as a nation start protecting ourselves from this, this risk from within during Vietnam and the, and the Communist scare, right?

Jordan Kronick (45:20): You know, what, what, what drew me, um, im– especially to the drug war narrative is the way in which what happened in the ’60s exactly mirrored what happened in the ’80s with MDMA, and we tried to present that in the film. The

Joe Moore (45:42): I liked how you did that

Jordan Kronick (45:43): you know– And, and ’cause I, I really f- and, and I, I, I, you know, going back to “Ecstasy Rising” from 2003, 2004, I mean, that was a key nar- uh, part of the film’s narrative was looking how, you know, the hope of, you know, the MDMA was the new hope, and then it, uh, you know, it, it, it got out and exploded in rave culture, and it got shut down. And, um, of course, that’s, you know, what happened, uh, in the ’60s, uh, as well. So, we thought like, um… And, and, and it, and it’s definitely caused a sort of stalling in all of the psychedelic renaissance, you know? I mean, just think where the psychedelic renaissance would be if they allowed all of that clinical data that was being accumulated in the late ’50s and early ’60s to continue. Um, uh, you know, and, and I, I think it’s the, uh, the s- the same thing, uh, happened in the late ’70s, early ’80s, you know, when, uh, when MDMA became sort of the, the, the way to sort of, um, um, again, you know, uh, bring a resurgence with the, with, with the clinical research. So that was definitely, um, a c- like a, a strategy in the filmmaking was to, was to show, to show that mirror and to show how, um, stigma, you know, stigma, uh, got created in the, in the ’60s, stigma got created in the ’80s, and, you know, here we are, uh, for– It’s taken 40 to 50 years, uh, uh, to, um, dilute that stigma, and it still, you know, uh, is an obstacle

Joe Moore (47:29): Yeah, it’s fascinating. I always like to bring up a few things here. It’s like probably a trillion dollars in spend or something along those lines in the war on drugs. Um, it’s a lot of propaganda and history to get over. Uh, and for a charity like MAPS to have kind of persisted forever in the face of that is, is certainly admirable, um, and helped us recover quite a bit.

Um,

Jordan Kronick (47:58): And

Joe Moore (47:58): and you did feature that… Go ahead.

Jordan Kronick (48:00): I was just gonna say that like, um, to, to your point, like what a job Rick Doblin did, know, demystifying, uh, not being afraid to sort of talk about it, you know? He was probably to- I, I mean, that he was told over and over and over again, “Rick, you can’t be out there, you know, being so sort of provocative, uh, and being so honest.” But I think it’s been proven that his provocations and his honesty and his engagement with the media is what has led to this sort of slow, steady decline in the stigma, and which has opened up the opportunities for all of these hundreds of psychedelic studies that are going on, and all of these dozens of psychedelic research centers that have opened up in places like, you know, NYU and Stanford and Harvard and, you know, some of the foremost, uh, college, uh, um, colleges in the country.

Joe Moore (49:01): Yeah, absolutely. Um, I did like how you featured that there’s so much data, um, before Prohibition. It was a actively researched thing. There was no real stigma, like just what is this? What are, what’s happening here? Um, and that stigma really kinda came later. Uh, and scientists were taking it very seriously, and I thank you for including that in there.

Um, were you able to get some archival footage for that?

Jordan Kronick (49:30): Uh, um, yeah, there’s, uh, so much great archival footage, you know, black and white footage. Uh, that was actually one of the entry points, um, for me. Uh, you know, the, the, the histo- Like, I would love to have done more historical storytelling. It’s such a, uh, it’s so fascinating, the twists and turns from the, that took place in the ’50s into the s- into the ’60s, and, you know, there’s just ex- you know, a huge catalog of incredible footage that documented all of it.

You know, the black and white footage going back to the studies, the clinical studies that were being done, to all of the Timothy Leary footage, to all of the Ken Kesey footage, to all of the Merry Pranksters footage, to, you know, all of the counterculture footage, to what, you know, Nixon did. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s just, it’s such a rich, uh, rich subject matter, and so s- and it’s just so much, uh, so visually, um, uh, excellent

Joe Moore (50:31): So I wonder, this, this thing with the ’60s into the ’80s, it– rhyming at least or looking somewhat similar. Like structurally, it did seem like, “Oh, okay, the kids are doing something. We don’t like that they’re doing this thing. How do we shut it down? Um, let’s make what they do illegal.” Um, it’s kind of, it was the Nixon logic.

It just feels like the scope and scale is so different. I don’t, I don’t really know what was happening around the time of ecstasy really taking off culturally that felt so dangerous, you know? Um, did you have any thoughts on that?

Jordan Kronick (51:08): it was like when ecstasy came onto the scene, no drug history has ever spread so far and so fast.

Joe Moore (51:19): Hmm.

Jordan Kronick (51:21): Uh, you go back to the ’60s, the LSD coming out of the science labs and getting into the counterculture, that was a slow sort of migration. If you look at ecstasy, it just, like, happened overnight, and it was worldwide. Um, you, you know, it, it, uh, uh, and it wa- it wasn’t just, you know, in the US. I mean, it was, it was all over the place, you know, uh, particularly in the UK. So, um, I think that’s interesting, just, uh… A- and, and I think, and I think the drug enforcers saw, um, you know, the explosion of this thing, uh, and again, practically overnight, and they had to, you know, shut it down as quickly as they could.

Uh, you know, that all, uh… You know, there’s one particular character, a guy named Michael Clegg, um, who is considered the first mass manufacturer of ecstasy. He’s considered the person who gave MDMA the name ecstasy. He was, um, making pills and distributing them, uh, in Texas. That was ground zero for the ecstasy explosion. um, you know, he, like within sort of months, you know, the, the, the whole country, uh, was starting to dabble, uh, with ecstasy. So the DEA, um, you know, I, I, I got in there. I, I think this might be an apocryphal story, uh, but it’s out there that, uh, Senator, uh, Lloyd Bentsen, um, was the Texas senator at the time, and, uh, George H.W.

Bush was the president at the time, and the apocryphal story being that he sent Senator Bentsen down to Texas to say, “What the hell is going on in Texas with this new drug ecstasy?” And that was, you know, that became the battleground, uh, to try to shut it down

Joe Moore (53:14): Mm. I love that. Yeah, the for those who aren’t, like, up to speed on, um, ecstasy history, the Starck Club in, in I think it was Dallas, was like a really serious hotbed for, um, for ecstasy, and it was a cultural meeting place. It was wildly democratic. Um, you know, drag queens, uh, politicians, oil magnates. And Jordan, I think it’s a, it’s an interesting thing that that happened in Dallas, and now having, uh, a sort of support bed in Texas for psychedelic healing.

I think a lot of people, wealthy oil money in Texas, remembers having a good time at the Starck Club, and now they wanna support it

Jordan Kronick (54:02): Well, I, I look, I look forward to you watching Ecstasy Rising because we have a Starclub scene in the film, and we talked to the, uh, we talked to the guy who was the manager of the Starclub during, uh, that era. We also talked to, um, uh, one of, one– uh, a person who was the DJ at the Starclub, uh, during, during that era.

Um, you know, that was the, that was Michael Clegg. That was his ecstasy, um, you know, at the Starclub, apparently in bowls, uh, you know, on the bar. Just, you know, it was

Joe Moore (54:32): Mm-hmm

Jordan Kronick (54:32): and, you know, just go, go, go take it. And it was, um, was, uh, firing up, yes, this, like, crazy cross-section of people, including, you know, yeah, wealthy oil people, um, women, you know, with big hair, um, SMU students.

Uh, it was, uh, uh, famous people, um, uh, you know, like apparently, um, there was a lot of like, I think Mick Jagger and other celebrities were coming to the Starclub. Uh, it was really, um, uh, that– uh, an interesting place that launched the ecstasy explosion

Joe Moore (55:09): Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, went to New York, went, I think, like, I often talk about Quaaludes as being the proto ecstasy at, at Studio 54 and elsewhere. Then MD- MDA became popular for a little bit, but it was a little niche, and then MDMA really exploded everywhere. And once you’re from Dallas to New York, then you’re really global at that point

Jordan Kronick (55:32): And, you know, to, to, to ban, uh, uh, ecstasy, MDMA, the DEA, uh, used M- studies on MDA. Um, so I, I think that was, uh, what led– You know, Doblin got involved at that time, and that’s what led them to sort of mount a defense to appeal, um, the, um, the crim- the, the MDMA criminality. And they had a little bit of success, but then unfortunately, um… Or they, they had a little– I think they had a little bit of success, and they got, they got one of the decisions overturned, but i- in, in the end, it was, it, it was shut down.

Joe Moore (56:09): Yeah, absolutely. Um

Well, you’ve got me spinning about the Star Club. I have to like, uh, do a little work there. Such a fascinating bit of history, um, especially that it was in Texas. So

Jordan Kronick (56:27): Which

Joe Moore (56:28): do you think is…

Jordan Kronick (56:29): which

Joe Moore (56:29): Go ahead.

Jordan Kronick (56:30): you, which raises the point, like, you know, now you’ve got, here we are, um, you know, uh, 50 years later, and you’ve got former Governor Rick Perry, um, Texas being the person who, or a person who is dedicating the rest of his career to legalizing ibogaine So it

Joe Moore (56:55): Right

Jordan Kronick (56:55): it really sort of speaks to, I think, the bipartisan nature of, um, the support for psychedelics. Uh, you know, I think you’re seeing it on the left for the obvious reasons, but you’re seeing it now on the right for the less obvious reason, which is that it seems to be working for veterans.

And what’s good for the vet… You know, s- as goes the veteran, so goes the country. And, um, and I, I think that’s why you’re seeing Department of Defense, uh, giving money to do studies. I think you’re seeing the Veterans Administration giving money to do studies. You’ve got Trump’s executive order. You’ve got, you know, former Governor Rick Perry in Texas.

You’ve got that $50 million that’s going into the ibogaine study. So it’s one of the– Seems to be one of the few issues in the country that has, you know, support on both sides of the aisle.

Joe Moore (57:45): I, I think it was, uh, a little while ago, it was bees, honeybees for pollination and psychedelics. I loved that. Um, it– how unlikely. Um, so what, what kind of, uh, speculations do you have about how– what we might see nationally, internationally around these things? Do, do you expect, um, anything beyond just the, the kind of standard narrative about pharma rollouts with, you know, MDMA and psilocybin?

Jordan Kronick (58:16): I mean, you kind of have to follow the science, you know, to, to, to answer that question, and you have to look at these studies and, you know, Compass Pathways has gotten through their, you know, phase three clinical study, and they’ve got their synthetic psilocybin, uh, that’s been, uh, submitted to, to the FDA. I mean, clearly, uh, you know, Trump was clear when he signed that executive order that he wants to fast-track some kind of legalization. So I guess the question is, will the FDA throw him a bone? It seems to be if they wanted to do that, they’ve got that Compass Pathways submission, you know, sitting right there for them.

So I think that’s fueling a lot of the rumors that are saying, uh, you know, that legalization is coming at the end of this year or the beginning of next year. You know, Ma- um, Ma-MAPS, Lykos, whatever the new name of it is, has resubmitted, uh, their MDMA for PTSD. That seems like a, a-another, another possibility. and, uh, you know, we’re of course tracking it, tracking it all very closely. It just feels like, um, this psychedelic renaissance is not going anywhere, that it’s just gonna, it’s just gonna keep growing. And it feels like the next step is one of these, you know, nationwide legalizations, and then you’ll have to deal with all the regulatory issues surrounding how to open, you know, clinics in every state of the country.

But, um, I feel like that’s gonna be– You know, there’s so much interest right now. This topic is definitely in the cultural zeitgeist. But when that first legalization happens, it’s just gonna be an explosion

Joe Moore (59:53): Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s, um, rumor has it we might have MDMA before end of the year. Who knows, though? I think that could be a long shot, but that’s, that’s what some folks are saying. Uh, it looks really clear that we’ll have psilocybin approved, um, by the FDA first quarter, and perhaps prescribable by second or third quarter next year.

Um, though we’re gonna have to work out a lot of reimbursement strategy, clinic rollouts, and all that kind of fun stuff. And, um,

Jordan Kronick (1:00:26): I mean,

Joe Moore (1:00:26): some really interesting…

Jordan Kronick (1:00:28): it seems the

Joe Moore (1:00:29): Go ahead.

Jordan Kronick (1:00:29): issue, you know, it, it’s like, okay, so Compass Pathways, that’s not psilocybin, right? That’s a synthetic version of psilocybin, that they own, uh, that they have a patent, that they have a patent for. MDMA is not MDMA by itself. It’s MDMA plus therapy in the protocol that they’ve been, uh, testing.

So, um, uh, I, I’m curious about ever get to the point where actual psilocybin, actual ayahuasca, actual ibogaine, actual MDMA is federally legal. Uh, this is a, a, a step in that direction, but it’s not, you know, I think people need to be clear that, uh, you have to, uh, understand the parameters o-of, of, of these legalizations that are coming down.

It’s not like you’re gonna, um, it’s, you know, you’re not gonna– It’s different as compared to what’s let- what’s happening in Colorado and, and Oregon, where those, you know, where it’s just go in and do psilocybin. That’s not what the FDA is gonna be approving in the near f- in the near term.

Joe Moore (1:01:34): Right. Yeah, the IP conversation. I, I had hours and hours of conversation on IP at the Horizons conference that just happened. I can’t wait to get into that more. Um, it’s so complex, and I don’t, I don’t think any of us are kinda understanding what’s happening. I, I’m just scratching the surface, and I’m years into this one.

So yeah, like it’s… So what is, what do they call it at Compass? A specific crystalline polymorph form, which I think means, of, of psilocybin, which I think means it’s psilocybin, but it has to look a certain way under a microscope. So they crystallize it in a particular fashion, and that’s what they might have patented.

And yeah, the MAPS thing, who knows? That’s gonna be fascinating to see how that rolls out. Um, all sorts of intrigues and treasons in the, uh, psychedelic world, and I’m, I’m, I’m excited for it to all play out, and I can’t wait for this stuff to be prescribable. We’re gonna get a lot of science rapidly once this stuff comes out

Jordan Kronick (1:02:36): And it, it, I mean, I, I, what do you think about the fact that it’s kind of leapfrogging pr- potentially marijuana? You know, we’ve been in this medical marijuana going from state to state to state to state for so long, but don’t have the, uh, federal le- legalization of marijuana, and here comes psychedelics ready to perhaps get, you know, the, the first version of that

Joe Moore (1:02:59): It’s wild to me. And I, I remember Rick Perry saying he’s okay with keeping cannabis illegal at the same time he’s pushing for ibogaine. I’m like, “What is going on?” I think ibogaine gets to sidestep it ’cause it’s not a legacy drug war issue. Um, but yeah, cannabis being left behind is really tricky and strange.

I think, uh, uh, realistically we have Marinol prescribable, like that’s THC in a pill form. We have, uh, Epidiolex, which I think is CBD in a pill form. Um, but the plant, you know, being so restricted. Like I, I in part quit cannabis because I didn’t wanna have to fly with it anymore in the United States. It didn’t seem like a, like a, a, a good proposition for me ’cause I do travel to states where it’s illegal still,

Jordan Kronick (1:03:49): Hmm

Joe Moore (1:03:50): um, tragically.

Uh, but, you know, hopefully, hopefully I don’t have to for all that many more years. Um, I was hopeful for the Trump EO on cannabis to be a little bit broader, but it looked like it was purely a pharma situation.

Jordan Kronick (1:04:05): Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore (1:04:06): So for instance, we still can’t smoke weed at Burning Man, which is like, uh, Nevada, a legal state.

You still can get in trouble with, um, law enforcement at Burning Man for cannabis, which is bonkers

Jordan Kronick (1:04:20): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Joe Moore (1:04:23): Hmm. It’s probably one of the more dangerous things you can do is smoke weed at Burning Man. So, um, be careful out there everybody. Um, cool. Well, again, can you give us a little bit of information about the rollout of the film and, and where people can get more information?

Jordan Kronick (1:04:40): Yeah. So it’s, um, Psychedelics and the Pursuit of Happiness” is the title. Uh, to go to our website, it’s peakingdocumentary.com, and that is the best place to get information about, uh, the film’s rollout. if you go there right now, it’s saying that we’re gonna be opening in theaters in Denver, uh, this weekend, and you can get tickets, uh, by going to the website. we’ll be updating the website as the rollout continues. Hopefully more cities, uh, after Denver, and then, uh, we’ll go digital, Amazon for rent, Apple for rent, uh, et cetera, uh, in early December

Joe Moore (1:05:26): Amazing. Well, yeah, everybody go see “Peaking.” Tell your friends. And Jordan, thank you so much for spending time with me. Let’s, uh, let’s hang out backstage for a moment and, um, appreciate your time

Jordan Kronick (1:05:40): Thanks, Joe

Joe Moore (1:05:42): Absolutely