[00:00:00] Joe Moore: hi everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today, Joe Moore here. We’re gonna be talking about some Colorado topics today. Um, we’re joined today by Tasha Ette from Healing Advocacy v and Martha Hamel from Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center. Martha, how are you today?

[00:00:18] Martha Hammel: I’m

[00:00:18] Tasia Poinsatte: doing great. How are you all?

[00:00:21] Joe Moore: Lovely. Natasha,

[00:00:25] Tasia Poinsatte: also doing pretty well. Thanks for having a song.

[00:00:28] Joe Moore: For sure. So let’s talk a little bit, um, high level why we’re here. Martha, could you introduce this, um, symposium that you’re, uh, leading the project on?

[00:00:41] Martha Hammel: Yeah. Uh, so this is our third year hosting the Aspen Psychedelic Symposium. We did one in 2023 and one in 2024, uh, hosted at the Wheeler Opera House in Aspen.

[00:00:56] Martha Hammel: Colorado, this gives an opportunity to bring in some [00:01:00] amazing speakers, uh, from around the world to, uh, uh, talk to our local West Slope, Colorado community about psychedelics.

[00:01:14] Joe Moore: Yeah, and I think this is important to note that, uh, people think Colorado is a monolith and it’s, it’s certainly not. There’s, um, a lot of different regions.

[00:01:25] Joe Moore: And, um, the identity of the western part of Colorado is super distinct from what we would call the front range being for Collins, Denver, Boulder, Colorado Springs, that kind of thing. So just wanted to point that out because there’s a lot of people that are gonna watch that, don’t know that kind of stuff.

[00:01:40] Joe Moore: Um, and, um, Tasha, are you helping coordinate this event? Helping produce it?

[00:01:48] Tasia Poinsatte: Yeah, so, um, the nonprofit I work with, healing Advocacy Fund has been involved with helping organize the symposium since its inception in 2023. And we really, we just saw it as this [00:02:00] wonderful opportunity to host a symposium in Colorado at a time when Colorado was stepping into this huge change in our laws, both decriminalization of these naturally occurring psychedelics.

[00:02:11] Tasia Poinsatte: Standing up regulated therapy model for psilocybin mushrooms. Um, in 2023 we were just getting started and so it’s exciting to come back in 2026. And we have a fully live program in Colorado and there’s just so much happening to dig into. And so I think it just seems like a natural fit. And of course, as somebody who lives in Denver, I always love the opportunity and the excuse to get out into the mountains and spend some time in Aspen in June is just a win-win from our perspective.

[00:02:38] Joe Moore: Yeah. Endlessly pretty. Um, yeah, I think I’ve been to one, or at least one, if not two, has been psychedelic symposiums. Um, and I had a lovely time last year. Um, there was even a film that was screened, I think it was a Lucy Walker, um, like an early cut of the Lucy Walker film was screened and it was [00:03:00] just mind blowing.

[00:03:01] Joe Moore: It was part of the whole festival. I wanna call it a festival. It was really a conference symposium and, um. You know, it was, it was a great event in that. Well, Martha, you and I have had these conversations about Aspen being a sort of place for ideas and being a sort of place where it’s safe to have conversations.

[00:03:24] Joe Moore: ’cause in a lot of the world, it’s kind of difficult too, right? Could you speak to that at all?

[00:03:31] Martha Hammel: Yeah. Um, Aspen’s always been a place for having discussions and really dreams for the future, um, and has a really long psychedelic history. I’m sure most of your listeners are familiar with Hunter s Thompson, the author, most famous for fear and loathing in Las Vegas, but also a really.

[00:03:59] Martha Hammel: Active [00:04:00] political advocate. Um, and he, uh, lived right outside of Aspen and Woody Creek, um, and in the seventies ran for sheriff. Uh, there was, uh, the sheriff’s department in Aspen prior to that was very conservative by the book. Uh, and were out there. Uh, charging the hippies with a cannabis possession, and they were really, um, trying to maintain a more.

[00:04:37] Martha Hammel: Traditional conservative vibe in the town. And in the early seventies, hunter Thompson ran for Sheriff. He lost by just a handful of votes, which most people know that story. But the next election in 1976, he ran the campaign for Dick Kindness, who won. Um, and we’ve had three other sheriffs since [00:05:00] then, all who have come.

[00:05:04] Martha Hammel: Um. Who have followed Hunter Thompson’s legacy in progressive drug drug policy, community policing, and uh, really supportive of these movements. So the people in Aspen are comfortable with the idea of psychedelics and have been for 50 years.

[00:05:35] Joe Moore: Right. Um, when we hear of John Denver, which I remember sand or iron rope, kind of giving props to John Denver last time, which is really fun. You think of John Denver was certainly not a, like a sober person and psychedelics like likely played a big part in that, that culture. So, yeah. And um, before we toss it back over to Tasha, could you give us a little bit of an idea of what is Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center?[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Martha Hammel: Hmm, yeah. In, um, uh, in 2021, uh, Skippy Meau, uh, who is on the Natural Medicine Advisory Board, now, he was a city council member in Aspen and started looking into what it would look like to decriminalize plant medicines locally, and he convened a group of community members, and there were about 30 of us who got together.

[00:06:28] Martha Hammel: Over the course of the summer of 2021 to write and propose legislation to decriminalize psychedelics. Um, eventually I took over as campaign man manager as we were going to make that a ballot initiative, uh, and spent the next two years talking to business leaders and government and the school board and.

[00:06:52] Martha Hammel: Out at the farmer’s market and knocking on people’s doors and just talking to every single person in town about [00:07:00] a decriminalization of plant medicines. And as we were doing this, the Natural Medicine Health Act started gaining momentum. Um, city of Aspen ended up voting yes for the Natural Medicine Health Act by 81%, which is a lot of the advocacy and outreach that we were doing.

[00:07:20] Martha Hammel: And the moment that it passed, all of these people that I had reached out to started reaching back out to me saying, okay, now what, what are you going to do? You’ve been talking about all of this harm reduction and, uh, education that’s going to happen. Um. Are you going to do something about it? And, uh, Laura, Betty and I founded the Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center in response to those questions.

[00:07:47] Martha Hammel: Um, and that’s what we’ve been doing. We’ve been doing outreach and education in Aspen and supporting the implementation of, uh, psychedelic policy reform [00:08:00] at the community level.

[00:08:03] Joe Moore: Thank you for that. And Tasha, you’ve been working hard on this topic in Colorado for a long time now. Um, before we dig into any of that for you, could you talk to us, um, about what, what is HAF feeling?

[00:08:15] Joe Moore: Advocacy fund.

[00:08:17] Tasia Poinsatte: Yeah. Um, so Healing Advocacy Fund is a nonprofit that is active across the three, the three states that have changed their laws to enable a legal psychedelic therapy program. So that’s Oregon, Colorado, and New Mexico. And really our goal as an organization, broadly speaking, is to support.

[00:08:35] Tasia Poinsatte: Safe access to psychedelic healing for those who can benefit. And we see the state access models as the primary pathway right now to expand access, especially to people who aren’t, you know, psych knots who don’t have a lot of experience, but are starting to learn about the potential mental health or health effects that they could experience working in a structured setting with psychedelics.

[00:08:59] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, [00:09:00] but, you know, might not feel comfortable or supported to take that step. Otherwise. Um, so these licensed models in these three states, Oregon and Colorado are live, and the New Mexico is coming online within the next year or so, um, are the place where we’re seeing at scale people being able to access, um, within a licensed framework, um, with, you know, training and accountability for the facilitators, testing of the medicine itself.

[00:09:23] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, and our role as an organization is really all of the advocacy around that. So when we, when we, I say broadly, um, first kind of took a step down this path in the state of Oregon back in 2020 with the passage of their ballot initiative. There were so many open questions and a lot of people felt. Really, you know, this is unsafe.

[00:09:43] Tasia Poinsatte: People are gonna get hurt, they’re not gonna be adequately supported. And so the focus of the organization initially was how do we make sure that that’s not the case? How do we make sure that the people that are getting licensed as facilitators have really gone through the process to have the skills to be able to support people in these [00:10:00] experiences, um, leading up to during and afterwards so that we can.

[00:10:04] Tasia Poinsatte: Increase the likelihood that they really are gonna have a beneficial, transformative experience and reduce the likelihood of harm, which of course, you’re never gonna reduce it down to zero, but you know, at least hopefully mitigate it as much as possible. Um, so that was kind of how we got started in Oregon.

[00:10:21] Tasia Poinsatte: In Colorado. We got started once we passed our ballot initiative here. And the focus definitely is still fundamentally on, you know, what is the core structure of the program to support the client experience. And then around that we’re also doing a lot of advocacy to try to bring down costs, to try to make this more affordable and accessible for people, especially low income people.

[00:10:41] Tasia Poinsatte: And you know, it’s, it, it is, um, it is a challenge. And so identifying creative strategies for how to do that. And then more broadly, we also, um, are. Engaged in education, primarily focused on healthcare providers and you know, how do we integrate this and educate people that are providing mental health care, um, primary care [00:11:00] doctors, et cetera, to understand what is psychedelic therapy and how can they.

[00:11:03] Tasia Poinsatte: Support people to access this type of care, if it’s the right option for them. Um, so in that capacity of kind of the education side, we really see ourselves aligned with organizations like Aspen, psychedelic Resource Center, NOAC Society, and a whole bunch of other grassroots nonprofits that have either existed or have.

[00:11:20] Tasia Poinsatte: Sprung up in Colorado since the passage of this ballot initiative. Um, and I, I think coming back to the symposium, that is part of what is so special about the Aspen Symposium is it’s a little bit of a smaller of event and it’s an opportunity for a lot of these different groups to come together to share this beautiful space and this time together and to kind of deepen those connections because we are so much more successful and there’s so much more potential here.

[00:11:47] Tasia Poinsatte: Um. When we work together and really kind of bring up each other’s strengths. Um, so really appreciate the chance to work with Martha and also Aspen Public Radio, who I wanna give a huge shout out to. Mm-hmm. Because we haven’t mentioned ’em yet [00:12:00] so far. Um, is the third nonprofit partner on this symposium?

[00:12:03] Tasia Poinsatte: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:07] Martha Hammel: Yeah, there you go. I, uh, yeah, with Aspen Public Radio and their involvement, very serendipitous, um, connection, uh, a community member, Ron Beller, connected was. Had a conversation with the, uh, board chair of Aspen Public Radio Will Dolan at the same time that I was talking to the executive director of a PR Breeze Richardson, um, about doing something like this.

[00:12:36] Martha Hammel: And it was one of those magical. Connections where everyone had the same idea at the same time. Uh, and, uh, they’ve been, uh, we would not be able to do this without breeze. And I also want to, uh, give a shout out to Kevin Matthews, who was programming, uh, supporting us with programming for the, our two previous ones.

[00:12:59] Martha Hammel: And, [00:13:00] um, then Laura Betty, my amazing business partner at A PRC.

[00:13:06] Joe Moore: Great. Love that. So. There’s, uh, so much to say about everything we’ve said so far, but I wanna keep going to chat more about the symposium. What are, what are we looking at so far? Is there a theme? Do you have some people that are coming out?

[00:13:25] Tasia Poinsatte: Mm. Yeah. I guess I’ll jump in and then hand it to Martha. Mm-hmm. So, um, we’re really excited. The, the programming is, is final for the symposium, so we have an amazing list of speakers coming from across the US as well as internationally. And really solid representation from Colorado because so much of, you know, what’s happening in Colorado.

[00:13:43] Tasia Poinsatte: I think there’s a lot to lift up and a lot to learn from our process here. Um. Broadly speaking in terms of the theme. Um, I, I think, you know, we’ve, we’ve discussed a few orienting sort of values for this year’s symposium and words that have come up have been [00:14:00] stewardship. Um, how are we stewarding this process of change in our laws?

[00:14:05] Tasia Poinsatte: In a responsible way. Um, and how can we also, you know, steward the psychedelic experiences? So I think that plays out sort of across a number of different realms there. Um, ecological integrity, um, which is an interesting one. But, um, in June and Aspen in Colorado, in a year where we’ve had, you know, some of the hottest driest weather on record, um.

[00:14:27] Tasia Poinsatte: This question of what we’re doing in our work with psychedelics, how it ripples out into our relationship with communities in the world around us, and what does it look like and feel like to live in ecological integrity? How does psychedelics tie into that? Um, and then a systems change theme. And the systems change I think is really responsive to.

[00:14:47] Tasia Poinsatte: One of the questions or sort of comments, we get a lot about this, at least the sort of the state regulated psilocybin therapy model is like a concern that there’s maybe too much focus on the individual healing process. Um, and so with [00:15:00] this systems change piece, it is, you know, the, the individual healing process is at the core of everything, right?

[00:15:05] Tasia Poinsatte: You know, we need to be. Um, in our healing process in order to access most fully our, our capacities. Um, but we’re starting to open up a bit and also ask how are these changes that we’re making in terms of psychedelic access, rippling out into other structures that we have within our society, the way that we structure healthcare, um, looking at food systems, looking at social networks and, you know, cultural divide type of issues.

[00:15:33] Tasia Poinsatte: And so it, it is a very multidisciplinary. Conference or symposium. Um, there’s gonna be focus still on the clinical research and what’s happening at the level of the individual. What are we seeing? Um, looking at some of these in particular, these edge cases of like neurogenerative conditions, pain conditions, um, stroke recovery, some of the, the areas of the field that are just starting to take off.

[00:15:58] Tasia Poinsatte: Um. Keeping [00:16:00] the, the mental health piece at the center, um, but then also expanding into these other areas of focus. So I think it’s gonna be really ripe for fascinating conversation, learning, and, um, part of our hope is just to also inspire people to be willing to start to reimagine, um, the, the structures that.

[00:16:18] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, we are all embedded in within our daily life. I know that’s kind of a lofty goal, but it seems like it’s what’s needed right now in this moment in human history. And, um, it feels like Aspen is kind of the place to, to, to have those conversations being at the cutting edge of so much kind of innovation and, and ideas.

[00:16:36] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, so that’s sort of my, my framing. I’ll hand it to Martha though, to add to that.

[00:16:40] Martha Hammel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I. I really see the symposium as an opportunity to create a container, um, and platform ideas that. We are interested in seeing platformed. I mean, everything that we, because of the partnership with Aspen [00:17:00] Public Radio, there’s an opportunity for all talks, not just at the symposium.

[00:17:04] Martha Hammel: Every event that we do in Aspen gets recorded and has opportunity to be rebroadcast on Aspen Public Radio. Um, and I really, uh, like to create a container for emergence. Uh, I we. Put speakers on stage and we don’t give a lot of guidelines in terms of topics or coaching. It’s not something that we,

[00:17:36] Martha Hammel: I, it’s not some, we don’t have a specific motive for what’s going to be said. Uh, we’re creating a container for conversations. And, uh, we always like to say we want people to leave with more questions than answered, answered, um, more questions than answers at, at all of our events.[00:18:00]

[00:18:06] Joe Moore: So who, who are some of the folks you’re, that are gonna be joining us on stage this year?

[00:18:19] Martha Hammel: Um, well, Zach Leary is returning as our mc to, uh, guide us through the whole experience. He’s been with us since the beginning. Uh, we’re so grateful for his input. Um. Izzy from Maps is one of our keynotes. Leonard Picard will be, uh, one of the headliners, um, Leo Roseman from Ripples and many others.

[00:18:55] Joe Moore: Great.

[00:18:56] Joe Moore: Great. Mm-hmm. I love that. Um. [00:19:00] So this idea of ecological integrity is huge. Uh, especially in the last week. Um, those of us in Colorado might have been feeling it all winter, and we’re a little nervous, maybe more nervous than most, um, given what we’re up for, uh, later this summer. But I think, um, the idea of ecological integrity, I, I like the phrasing.

[00:19:24] Joe Moore: Um. Because I think it helps us protect ourselves from greenwashing each other or ourselves. Um, it’s like, is that actually true? Um, so, and I, and I think it’s inclusive of cultural issues. So if we look at all the current debates around, um, groups in Gabon being included at the table in these really interesting iboga conversations, iboga conversations and more, you know, I think Colorado.

[00:19:55] Joe Moore: Had some inclusion of some language suggesting that we only want Nagoya [00:20:00] compliant, um, ibogaine, which is nice. Um, I, you know, I, I got to meet in Aspen actually at the Iboga, was it, what was it called? The Iboga Symposium at Aspen Institute this past summer. The,

[00:20:17] Martha Hammel: the, um, Aspen I began meetings. Uh, so the right.

[00:20:21] Martha Hammel: It, but in both April and in November, uh, a group of people coming together to discuss IGA policy.

[00:20:29] Joe Moore: Yeah. So I was lucky to make it this year. Um, but they, I got to meet some of the folks from Blessings of the Forest and, and then I had further discussions with other people about what is Nagoya compliant and this idea that there should be some sort of reciprocity to, um, under Legal United Nations Treaty.

[00:20:50] Joe Moore: Everywhere signed, but us by the way, in the United States, I think, um, and, uh, you know, to be expected. Uh, [00:21:00] and, you know, what, what does that look like? And it looks like negotiating and, uh, not a short process. So, um, a lot of us get concerned about it. How, how is this actually gonna look? How is there enough space in American capitalism to allow for something like, um, a Nagoya compliant process?

[00:21:19] Joe Moore: Which I think is really important question. Um, but I don’t, I don’t have any good answers, um, other than yeah, of course we should be discussing these things. Um, but I don’t, yeah. So do you, do you see the Nagoya compliance, kinda the reciprocity angle as part of the psychological integrity conversation and, and anything you want to add to the, what I mentioned.

[00:21:41] Joe Moore: Either of you.

[00:21:41] Tasia Poinsatte: I’ll just say a Absolutely. And I think Iboga is, um, such a fundamentally important example of why these conversations matter because we’re talking about, I bega derived from Iboga, this plant that grows in a specific climate in Central West Africa, [00:22:00] in Central Africa, and. The worst possible outcome I can imagine from this growing interest in the properties of Ibogaine is that we start to put human pressure on this plant to the point that we bring that plant to extinction.

[00:22:16] Tasia Poinsatte: I mean, what a tragedy that would be for humanity, for the world to. Some, you know, lose this gift that exists that we’re only beginning to scratch the surface of understanding its potential. Um, and I, I don’t know how familiar listeners, listeners are with Iboga, but you know, the pharmacology, um, the types of experiences people are having, it’s, there’s.

[00:22:41] Tasia Poinsatte: So much mystery and learning there. Um, and if we don’t approach this with care, there are risks, you know, and so, um, really having at the center, ecological integrity, stewardship, and a sense of responsibility and relationship with that plant is fundamental. Um, [00:23:00] and then, you know, expanding a little bit out from there.

[00:23:02] Tasia Poinsatte: That relationship being mediated through conversation, relationship, and dialogue with the people that have stewarded and have held that relationship with that plant for thousands of years. In the case of Evo a, um, in terms of what it looks like in practice, I mean, I, I, I do think the reality is that it is a dialogue.

[00:23:21] Tasia Poinsatte: It’s an ongoing conversation about how. Uh, how do we do this respectfully? Um, I think Evo is also an exciting example in that, that, you know, the understanding is that there is a desire from the bui people. Um, from the albanese to engage in these conversations. And there is kind of, you know, at least what we’re hearing, the message we’re hearing at the events that you mentioned is we recognize the potential of the healing of this plant for the broader world.

[00:23:52] Tasia Poinsatte: You know, there’s not a desire to kind of keep it specifically held and only accessible within that part of the world, but it [00:24:00] is, you know, with that comes this great responsibility for care. Um, and so, I mean, I think. The state based models are actually an amazing opportunity to pursue that and build that out.

[00:24:12] Tasia Poinsatte: And right now Colorado has a piece of legislation moving through, um, the legislature on ibogaine, which does specifically require benefit sharing. And I think having that enshrined in statute is a really important, you know, model to set. Um, when we look ahead to potential future states or federal, uh, work with ibogaine.

[00:24:34] Martha Hammel: Um, and this is one of our panels, uh, discussing international frameworks for the medicine community. Um, I had the pleasure of traveling to Gabon this past January, uh, to attend a conference put on by Reset Health that brought together a few hundred albanese individuals working with. [00:25:00] Iboga, um, and government officials, doctors, witty leaders to really discuss this and, uh, Gabon cares about Nagoya.

[00:25:11] Martha Hammel: They care deeply about. The medicine, the wisdom of the medicine and their natural resources, and want to find ways to protect the medicine, protect the people, protect each other in a way that supports, um, everyone to thrive. They, they’re open to sharing their knowledge. They know they have something really special, um, and they only want to do so in ways that would be supportive too.

[00:25:46] Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks for that. It’s, um, it’s fascinating, right? Like people, people have been on this kind of, um, conversation on reciprocity [00:26:00] for a number of years now. Ibegain is just. The latest one, um, that people seem to be on top of, which is good. Um, I’ve been writing extensively about Sonoran Desert, toad Extinction for years and years and years to the point where I’ve lost friends and colleagues over it because people find it annoying and it’s, I think, the only topic that I’ve felt physically in danger over.

[00:26:25] Joe Moore: Um,

[00:26:25] Tasia Poinsatte: wow.

[00:26:26] Joe Moore: But. That and one other, but the other one was MDMA. So that’s different. Um, so the, the stuff this, this conversation is a through line all the way back to Maria subpoena and mushrooms. Um, I think early peyote pros, uh, prosecutions from European colonizers, um, you know, there’s, this has been a thing for a long time, um, over harvesting a peyote is.

[00:26:57] Joe Moore: Is a classic problem that is also not [00:27:00] discussed enough. Colorado thankfully took that quite seriously and made sure it was, uh, not included and popularized in this, um, an MHA Natural Medicine Health Act push. I think that was really smart. Um, but yeah, I, again, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s interesting to me because we’re we’re talking about yeah.

[00:27:18] Joe Moore: Not depleting the stores of iboga in the, in the rainforest, um, which is important. Um. We haven’t spent a lot of time talking about total synthesis and like how expensive that is versus getting it from a plant. Um, but again, that’s one molecule out of a whole plant that we don’t, we haven’t adequately studied Ibaca and Iboga to, to know how much better whole plant is or how much different it is.

[00:27:46] Joe Moore: And then we have Vol Congo, which is a totally unscheduled plant that I think some people are importing and, and doing a, a few steps. Of chemistry on to get to Iboga hydrochloride. And you know, it’s, it’s a fascinating [00:28:00] conversation because some people are saying, uh, Nagoya is, I, I know somebody who says they’re Nagoya compliant.

[00:28:07] Joe Moore: And they negotiated straight up with just people in Gambone. Um, and they showed me the treaty and contract and stuff. Um, they’ve not consulted any of the bui. They’ve not gone anywhere close to blessings of the forest and it’s, um, you know, allegedly Nagoya compliant. So it’s, you know, is Nagoya compliance with a nation a monolith?

[00:28:29] Joe Moore: Is it the, you know, this is all stuff that we can flesh out on those panels. But, you know, just wanted to throw out that this is super complicated. It’s not just like one plant, one tribal group. Um, it’s, it’s a lot of different tribal groups. Um, yeah, go ahead. If you had anything to say.

[00:28:47] Martha Hammel: Yeah. Well, and then not just the plant itself, but the wisdom, um, and the intellectual property of the wisdom and the healing and the [00:29:00] generations.

[00:29:00] Martha Hammel: Can you characterize that a little

[00:29:00] Joe Moore: bit more for me?

[00:29:03] Martha Hammel: Hmm.

[00:29:08] Martha Hammel: So the, the medicine holders, the iboga medicine holders, and this is, I mean, I’m speaking to this coming from somebody who went to Gaon for 10 days. So, uh, I hope all of your listeners, uh, understand that this is like a completely a novice perspective on this. Um, but my understanding of Iboga is that it’s generations of.

[00:29:37] Martha Hammel: Teachings, um, and teachings that exist in the, in the rivers and in the trees and in the songs of the cicadas and in the way that, ways that the fireflies are moving around and dancing around in the. There is a [00:30:00] real value to that and a real necessity. Um, as we’re exploring working with these medicines, it’s not just the medicine it comes with.

[00:30:11] Martha Hammel: You can’t fully take it out of its context. Um, and

[00:30:17] Joe Moore: well, people do.

[00:30:19] Martha Hammel: Yeah, but we, we need should, and there’s a, should be there a

[00:30:22] Joe Moore: lot of success in a lot of places. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:25] Martha Hammel: There should be exchange for the knowledge and the wisdom. I mean, even if you’re not taking the actual, if even if we’re not exporting the actual

[00:30:37] Tasia Poinsatte: mm-hmm.

[00:30:37] Martha Hammel: Plants and the Albanese government is willing to have those conversations about export. This is part of those meetings that we, uh. Had when we were over in Gabon, but the, the, the real value is the wisdom, um, and making sure that there’s structures, that there’s [00:31:00] reciprocity for the wisdom and the knowledge, uh, as much as, um, and, and reciprocity too.

[00:31:06] Martha Hammel: I mean, who owns the, the wisdom, right? The, the forest and the people, um, and making sure that that has a. An equal exchange,

[00:31:19] Joe Moore: just because I’m a pain in the ass about language. I wanna say there is extraordinary value in the traditions. There’s extraordinary value in the molecule and the plant. Mm-hmm. They can be seen together or separate.

[00:31:32] Joe Moore: And I think there’s a lot of value in analyzing all three pillars. Um

[00:31:37] Tasia Poinsatte: mm-hmm.

[00:31:37] Joe Moore: And, yeah, I don’t, I’m not trying to discount your point, just. Some people won’t follow what you’re saying and I wanna be a little clear.

[00:31:44] Tasia Poinsatte: Well, I, I think for me, this kind of comes back to one of the fundamental pieces we’re trying to get at with the symposium, which is that none of this exists within a vacuum, right?

[00:31:53] Tasia Poinsatte: Mm-hmm. And so even somebody taking the molecule that is ibogaine in a clinic in Mexico, there [00:32:00] is still a context that surrounds that regardless of that individual person’s, you know, intent or even knowledge when they go into that experience. I mean, interestingly, I’ve heard, not verified. Reports that people have had as part of their experience, you know, visual imagery of African tribal people without even necessarily consciously knowing that that’s where I a gain derives from.

[00:32:20] Tasia Poinsatte: Again, I’m not gonna comment. I don’t know. I don’t know. When that happened where? Um, but one piece of it that I think is really meaningful with the work that Blessings of the Forest does is that they’re not just focused on Ibogaine, or sorry, iboga as a plant itself. They’re focused on the community of plants, the ecosystem.

[00:32:41] Tasia Poinsatte: How do we protect the health of that ecosystem so that we can protect the health of the plant? And, um, so they’re, they’re planting, they’re supporting smallholder. Uh, farmers in Ebo in Gabon to plant Biodiverse Polycultures, where that plant iboga is actually [00:33:00] thriving within this broader community. And we don’t really know, you know, the extent to which that even might impact the properties of the plant.

[00:33:08] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, it’s not to discredit that iboga as a molecule can have benefit for people. Absolutely. And I think, you know, as we move forward in Colorado. There may be that this legislation that’s moving through would create the option for what you just described, Joe, which is the semisynthetic conversion of Bo Conga, to, um, obtain ibogaine in that way.

[00:33:30] Tasia Poinsatte: And that may well be the more ecologically sustainable path. Um, it may be the more legally viable path. Um, and I still think, you know, there, there is this. Question or this piece of this whole conversation of like, of doing the right thing because it’s the right thing. And I think when we’re thinking about societal structures that we are creating and implementing, there is this stewardship, stewardship component that perhaps comes into play in an even greater extent than when you’re [00:34:00] thinking about, you know, an individual’s choices about their own experience.

[00:34:03] Tasia Poinsatte: When it comes to an individual’s choices about their own experience though, what we really wanna. Ensures that there is this supportive framework around Ibogaine because it is not inevitable that the Ibogaine experience will be beneficial. Um, it can be very challenging, you know, and so having these pieces, pieces in place, and I think part of what Martha’s getting to is like part of how we understand how to structure that container.

[00:34:28] Tasia Poinsatte: Very often may be informed to greater or lesser degrees by the knowledge of these wisdom keepers in the BTI tradition, um, whether explicitly or not. And so recognizing that, and perhaps it needs to, you know, we, we, we don’t actually. N know exactly what’s happening with everyone who accesses iboga outside the US right now.

[00:34:50] Tasia Poinsatte: We don’t know how well supported they are, and that’s part of why we are creating this, this state model in Colorado and Oregon and New Mexico, is that we actually have a way [00:35:00] to. Follow up with people, um, and kind of see how these psychedelic experiences are playing out over time. Are they receiving the support?

[00:35:07] Tasia Poinsatte: Is that benefit sustained over time? And so all of these, you know, to Martha’s point, like a lot more questions than answers. And I think we’re really just trying to mm-hmm. Dig in on some of these more challenging questions in the field. With a group of people who have brought so much knowledge and passion and experience into the various facets of the work that they do all in one, you know, beautiful mountain town in Colorado.

[00:35:30] Tasia Poinsatte: I’m a bit of a ramble.

[00:35:33] Joe Moore: No, that was great.

[00:35:34] Tasia Poinsatte: Thank

[00:35:34] Joe Moore: you for doing that. And I think, um, I think it’s fair to say that we don’t know the optimal ways to do maybe any of this. Um, digging our way out of a trillion dollar war on drugs and, um, it being illegal to actually research this stuff for a long period of time.

[00:35:53] Joe Moore: Um, you know, we’re, we’re digging up, you know, building, [00:36:00] building something new in the face of a lot of, uh, roadblocks and fear. And, uh, I want to point out Iboga, um, how it became illegal. In the United States do, do either of, you know the story?

[00:36:16] Martha Hammel: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:18] Joe Moore: So this brings us full circle. Um, in 1972, um, there was a presidential candidate named Ed Muskie, um, and Hunter Thompson actually faked a story about Ed Muskie being addicted to ibogaine in a truly bizarre substance.

[00:36:37] Joe Moore: And, uh, there’s nobody was really using it at that point in time. People latched on to Hunter writing about it and said, we need to make that illegal. And they added it to CSA. So just really, really fascinating and terrifying. Um, just to know how the apparatus has worked historically and, um, how much work we all have ahead of [00:37:00] us to build this kind of science-based drug policy and a, um, constantly progressing psychedelic healthcare.

[00:37:11] Joe Moore: And beyond infrastructure. Yeah. And Martha, I think perhaps a thing that we’re pick, I’m picking up from you is that yes, this stuff should be integrated into healthcare in some way, but you, you don’t want to necessarily see it be totally ripped out of a, a sort of spiritual, religious framework. And I think, I think that’s a fair thing.

[00:37:36] Joe Moore: Um, maybe it did. I characterize that well enough.

[00:37:42] Martha Hammel: I mean, there’s just so much wisdom. Um, I’m always a fan of asking questions to people who have more knowledge than me.

[00:37:56] Tasia Poinsatte: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:56] Martha Hammel: And [00:38:00] you have people who have been working with this medicine for. Generations and generations and generations and who have been stewards of this land and stewards of this wisdom, and they know what they, they’re doing.

[00:38:15] Martha Hammel: Um, you know, I talk about psychedelic use all the time, like exploring the mountains. Yes. Um, if you’re in it, we in Colorado understand our mountains here and, and we’ve only been living here for not that many generations as opposed to the indigenous people who were here for so long before that. But if you’re.

[00:38:42] Martha Hammel: Navigating unfamiliar terrain. Maybe hire a guide who’s been there before and who understands the weather patterns and who understands the river currents and who knows which snakes to avoid. [00:39:00] You know, so that

[00:39:03] Joe Moore: I need to point out that there’s like a spiritual subtext here around, like in the experience there are a lot of things that can be, um, interacted with in one way or another, and.

[00:39:19] Joe Moore: A lot of the traditions have experience interacting with those things and guiding people through interacting with those things. And, you know, this is not super dissimilar from how I like to talk about breath work, LSD psychotherapy. Mm-hmm. Assorted shamonic traditions from around the world. So it’s. It’s a yes.

[00:39:36] Joe Moore: And it’s yet another, uh, robust shamanic tradition.

[00:39:41] Martha Hammel: Well, I mean, I actually don’t even mean it in a shamanic context. Um,

[00:39:48] Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

[00:39:50] Martha Hammel: Uh, even for experiences afterwards. Um, or like, say, uh, and [00:40:00] so again, I don someone if vague. Tell

[00:40:01] Joe Moore: me what you mean.

[00:40:02] Martha Hammel: Yeah. No, I, I don’t know enough about. To be able to give a really clear example, but, um,

[00:40:13] Martha Hammel: say, yeah, I, I don’t know. Yeah. I, I don’t know enough about the medicine to really, uh, give something solid, but I’m trying to think of an analogy that would.

[00:40:32] Joe Moore: Will you work on that? Martha Tasha, can you tell us where we stand in Colorado on Colorado Ibogaine policy and development of Ibogaine into Colorado’s, uh, NMHA framework?

[00:40:46] Tasia Poinsatte: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, there’s a bill Mo moving its way through the legislature right now that, um, would do a few things. It would make some adjustments that could make the addition of. Ibogaine to the NMHA more feasible, such as the [00:41:00] allowing the SEMISYNTHETIC conversion. It would also create this pilot research, uh, opportunity in partnership with the Behavioral Health Administration, where there could be, um, sort of a sep separate avenue of FDA approved, um, or sorry, yeah.

[00:41:13] Tasia Poinsatte: FDA approved clinical research with ibogaine with support from the BHA. So that’s kind of a separate thing. Um, but really what needs to happen in Colorado to fully move forward is that the. State agencies tasked with regulating the natural medicine program, which is the Department of Revenue. The department of Re regulatory agencies need to give the full green light, which they haven’t yet.

[00:41:35] Tasia Poinsatte: What they do have is they have the recommendation from the advisory board, as you mentioned. Two, add IGA to the regulated program and do so in a way that is compliant with, uh, the Nagoya protocol. And, um, I think that what it’s gonna come down to is, you know, that they’re continuing to have these very in-depth, fascinating conversations with a whole host of different people, including, you know, [00:42:00] people from blessings of the forest, um, and others.

[00:42:03] Tasia Poinsatte: Directly working with or living in Gabon, um, as well as these clinics in, you know, in Brazil and Mexico, about how this can be safely structured. Um, so really what’s needed, you know, is that decision, green light or no? And that’s kind of the point that we’re at in Colorado.

[00:42:18] Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Cool. Thank you. And have there been conversations about how to get it in here other than Vol Congo and a semisynthetic process?

[00:42:30] Tasia Poinsatte: There have been so many conversations about how to get it in here. Um, you know, there’s, there’s a number of different options and each one of them I think, comes kind of with its own set of challenges. At the core of it, the, the core challenge is that it’s a tropical plant that is. If it’s possible to grow in Colorado, it’s extremely hard to grow in Colorado.

[00:42:50] Tasia Poinsatte: So you’re needing to have some sort of importation opportunity, or perhaps it could be grown in other states and then transferred to Colorado. Um, but all of [00:43:00] those come with their own host of sort of challenges around them. Um, there’s a desire to, you know, pursue this. Federal exemption, um, concept. And I think that it’s an open question as to whether, um, that, that is gonna move forward, which could then allow importation either of Bo Conga or of Iboga, um, for the purposes of providing iboga at these clinics.

[00:43:22] Martha Hammel: And actually, uh, to, to speak about the agricultural and growing process. I think this, I, I can give a good example of what I was trying to say. So. If say, we’re trying to grow iboga in Colorado, we would. I, instead of just trying to do it here, it would make sense to talk to the people in Gabon who have been growing it for a really long time about what they’ve learned, uh, in their interactions with this plant for generations because they’ve been cultivating this for generations.

[00:43:56] Martha Hammel: And so that there’s, it would say a wisdom. It doesn’t

[00:43:59] Joe Moore: grow well in [00:44:00] a high alpine desert.

[00:44:02] Martha Hammel: Exactly.

I’m

[00:44:02] Tasia Poinsatte: pretty sure they would say that. I mean, if you’re gonna try to grow it here, it would be, yeah. Greenhouse,

[00:44:08] Martha Hammel: but, but there’s a, there’s a wisdom lineage to like a very distinct interaction with the plant that isn’t necessarily this like spiritual shamanic context.

[00:44:19] Joe Moore: Is it traditionally cultivated? Like, is that, is that a relationship that the Wei have with it, or is it always wild harvested? I never actually dug into that.

[00:44:29] Martha Hammel: Mm-hmm. Um. It’s definitely cultivated. There’s, um, very specific traditional, uh, processes, uh, for the cultivation. Um, and it’s wild harvested,

[00:44:47] Joe Moore: okay.

[00:44:47] Joe Moore: Both hand. And there’s a long tradition of cultivation. It’s not just like a last 20 years thing.

[00:44:54] Martha Hammel: Um.

[00:44:58] Martha Hammel: I mean, I want to [00:45:00] say yes, but uh, once again, I am

[00:45:04] Joe Moore: not an expert in this. Let’s get an answer later. Um, maybe, maybe you guys can help me find an answer on this one and we can report back. ’cause I think that’s an important thing. You know, none of us are wei initiates. Is that accurate? I’m not.

[00:45:15] Tasia Poinsatte: That is accurate.

[00:45:15] Tasia Poinsatte: I am not.

[00:45:17] Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So yeah, we can report back and try to find some folks that can’t speak well to this. I’ve, uh, tried my best at the ibogaine meetings to record with some of the blessings of the forest crew and wasn’t able to pull it off, um, or some other conversations that were more pressing, I guess.

[00:45:37] Joe Moore: So, um,

[00:45:38] Martha Hammel: uh, Joe, I can connect you to some people in Gabon who are working on this process, so I’ll be sure

[00:45:47] Joe Moore: to do that.

[00:45:48] Martha Hammel: Yeah.

[00:45:50] Joe Moore: Um, alright, well, where can people find info about the symposium? I know we need to wrap here.

[00:45:56] Martha Hammel: Um, aspen [00:46:00] psychedelic.org/symposium. Um, you can buy tickets on the Wheeler Opera House website.

[00:46:07] Martha Hammel: Um, there’s a ticketing link on our website, aspen psychedelic.org.

[00:46:15] Joe Moore: Amazing. And, um. Tasha, where can we find your website?

[00:46:20] Tasia Poinsatte: We are healing advocacy fund.org. And yeah, for any listeners who are interested in following along more closely with the state regulated programs, um, definitely we recommend visiting our site, setting up for a newsletter.

[00:46:32] Tasia Poinsatte: Um, we try to keep folks updated to the best extent that we can.

[00:46:38] Joe Moore: Um, final question. Somebody out there listening asked if there are any veterans speaking this year, do we know that offhand?

[00:46:48] Tasia Poinsatte: Hmm.

[00:46:52] Martha Hammel: I don’t

[00:46:52] Joe Moore: believe so. Sounds like I’m not sure. Okay.

[00:46:54] Martha Hammel: Yeah.

[00:46:55] Joe Moore: Cool.

[00:46:56] Martha Hammel: Um, uh, certainly that’s not [00:47:00] a, a focus of this year’s, uh, symposium, but there may be somebody who is a veteran. But that’s not, we’re, we’re not specifically platforming veterans issues at this symposium. There are so many amazing topics, um, that we want to be platforming and, uh, not nearly enough stage time.

[00:47:25] Martha Hammel: Tasha and I are constantly in this conversation of, oh, but, but we wanna give this person a little extra time. And, oh, can we, can we squeeze in just a little. More space for somebody else. Um, this conference is a, it’s a single track, so we only have so much stage time. I think the total is 11 hours. Um, and it.

[00:47:54] Martha Hammel: It’s an impossible challenge not to be able to give everybody [00:48:00] the stage, but we want to,

[00:48:02] Joe Moore: I don’t envy the challenge, but thank you. The effort, so

[00:48:06] Tasia Poinsatte: we keep coming back.

[00:48:08] Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:09] Tasia Poinsatte: Yeah, and I will say, I do, I do also really appreciate the, the single track structure. It, it creates sort of this cohesive group experience that I think is a little different than when everybody’s sort of.

[00:48:19] Tasia Poinsatte: Siphoning off to their different rooms. And so it’s, it’s a special one for sure, in my experience.

[00:48:24] Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. All right, well thank you both. And

[00:48:27] Martha Hammel: speaking of veterans, wait, can I, just one more thing. Speaking of veterans, there is, uh, somebody in our local Aspen community who has been, uh, really trying to get a veterans focused symposium.

[00:48:41] Martha Hammel: Up and running. And if any of your listeners are interested in seeing that happen, um, specifically the person who just asked the question, uh, reach out to me through the Aspen psychedelic website and let’s figure out how to platform [00:49:00] some veterans

[00:49:01] Joe Moore: issues. Right? I would love to support that. So yeah, reach out to me as well, friends.

[00:49:06] Joe Moore: All right, let’s, uh, hang out backstage. Thank you both for your time and, um. I’m excited about this one.