Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hi everybody. Welcome back. Joe Moore, Kyle Buller, psychedelics today talking about breath work today. Kyle, how’s it going?

Kyle Buller: Pretty good. I actually just wrapped up a interview, which was pretty fun. So just hopping off of that right into here. How are you doing today?

Joe Moore: Doing pretty good, you know, um, staying really busy, uh, doing, um, you know, the snow dance every night, so hopefully we get a lot more snow soon here.

It’s, um, it’s just so everybody knows, it’s a really low snow situation here in Colorado right now, so I always like for it to be at or above average. So, um. All right. So Kyle, today we’re gonna talk about breath work. You and I have a long history with breath work and, um, I, I don’t know. I started reading Stan Goff’s work in 2001 or so.

Um, breath work probably as early as 2003 I think in [00:01:00] my dates. And then, yeah, it’s just been a big part of my life ever since. Like did, can you talk a little bit about how breath work kind of came on your radar?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Breath work, um, came on my radar through my time at Burlington College. Um, I was doing my undergrad there in transpersonal psychology and they just happened to have a weekend workshop in hold your breath work.

Um, and so you could sign up and you could get one, uh, credit for it, which was pretty cool. And. It was interesting, like, ’cause your entry point was through Stan’s work, right? Like, and then, so like you read Stan and then got introduced to Breathwork that way as well.

Joe Moore: Right? So yeah, I started reading Stan’s work.

They, there was like three or four books at the school’s library, which is astonishing. And then, um, Lenny had set up hollow interest and Hollow Cert, like these email lists that you could get on. And I just started kind [00:02:00] of, you know, stalking that way. So yeah, I hadn’t been exposed to drugs really other than cannabis at that point.

Um, maybe one or two people I knew had, you know, the exotic mushroom stories that I coveted but, you know, couldn’t access, um.

Kyle Buller: And were you, were you introduced to like breath work theory before actually doing breath work? Or did you do breath work? Yeah, for

Joe Moore: sure. I read tons before, tons and tons before I, um, ever got to dream shadow in Vermont to do breath work.

Um, which is fascinating. You know, certainly a different doorway and like how do we, uh, I love the idea of people prepping a ton before experiences, but also maybe you don’t need to. Yeah. Um, and that’s maybe what we’ll get into later after your story here, but Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. ’cause it was interesting ’cause I just read like Stan’s book, like Ls d Doro to the newness and then I was also reading.

There’s another book I read, I think [00:03:00] that Summer Inner Paths to Outer Space. And it was like Groth, Rick Strassman, a few other authors. And I don’t think breath work was really mentioned, um, in any of that text. Like I don’t remember reading too much about it in LSD Dora to the Ness. Um, but so when I, I heard about it, I really didn’t know much about it.

Like I obviously knew a lot about Stan ’cause I was already reading a bunch of his work, but I was reading his psychedelic work and didn’t read his breath work work. Mm-hmm. And so when that class came up, I also didn’t really know what to expect because I-A-I-S-I didn’t actually read any of his breath work material, but I kept hearing a lot of the students talk about it that went and they just kept saying like, oh man, that’s a really wild thing.

It’s like so psychedelic and like, I’ve had like really profound psychedelic experiences, um, with it. And I kept like kind of rolling my eyes going like, yeah.

Joe Moore: Sure. Yeah. Whatever you say. [00:04:00] Yeah. And then, um, you know, my first experience or experiences were relatively mild. There was stuff happening. Um, but you know, what I saw in the room, other people having pretty robust experiences was potentially the more compelling thing than my own experience to say like, oh, these people, you know, they’re, they’re having some really robust things.

Go on. I think I wanna come back.

Mm.

Um, and, uh, you know, a lot of hard work and a lot of weird experiences. And I started, you know, having big, helpful things happen. Where you say like, your first experience was like, mild. Like what was that experience like? Um, you know, a lot of effort, um, not much like, you know, robust stuff happening.

Um. I had some, you know, quasi transpersonal looking things, or at least symbolic things happening at the end. Um, and you [00:05:00] know, I thought that was pretty interesting. I think like, uh, what was it? I, I don’t, I don’t love putting this out on the air. Everybody, like, I’ve tried to keep this stuff secret. It’s been mostly like a decade, so I’m happy to come out with it.

But, you know, very large black snake in the background, very large. Um, and then, uh, Sanskrit letters on all the fingers, you know? Mm-hmm. I didn’t know Sanskrit, but I was putting a lot of weight in Sanskrit at that point in my life. So it was like an interesting kind of symbol set. I looked at my mandala recently and it was pretty, pretty neat, um, to go, look, look at that years later, mandala.

Um, it’s kind of our breathwork lineage term for. The picture you do at the end, a little bit of art or expression, visual expression. You do? Yeah. We’ll get into that later. You, you have a ton of

Kyle Buller: them too. It was really cool seeing some of those, like at the recent workshops where you brought those out for folks to look at.

Joe Moore: yeah, I think it’s a really cool learning tool. ’cause you know, you’d tell people you have to do [00:06:00] art and the first thing they do is panic. Um, but artistic expression is a core part of it. But how do you make it okay for people to like, you know, understand that a stick figure or a couple color blotches is fine.

Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, leading with vulnerability is the way, is my way at least.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for doing that. So did your, uh, we kind of had like different entry points, and I think we’ve talked about this before, but like, you know, you, ’cause you’ve done a lot of breath work before psychedelics and I was like the opposite where I just like, was doing psychedelics and then breath work was like pretty grounding for me.

So like, did your breath work experiences change after psychedelics or did breath work also like, like Yeah. Inform how you approach psychedelics in a way.

Joe Moore: Radically informed how I approached psychedelics. So my first time trying to consume mushrooms, I grew, um, after years of breath [00:07:00] work. Um, and then, you know, really, really light doses and a fairly safe container.

Um, and then, you know, the first time I tried to soup, you know, really, really go for it, you know, I was all alone. But, you know, I did the music, I did the laying down, I had the eye shades. Um. Yeah, all with stuff I grew, which is fascinating. So I was trying to like use gro method for how I was approaching psychedelics.

GR method, breath work, is that what we want to call it these days? Um, gro method, let’s call it gro lineage breath work practices. Uh, yeah, that

Kyle Buller: works. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Cool, cool. And just so everybody understands, there’s a number of organizations that, um, facilitate and teach people how to do this stuff. As of 2025.

Kyle and I do not teach people how to do breath work. I’m not even certified to facilitate breath work with any organization. That hasn’t stopped me [00:08:00] from facilitating a lot. Um. The organizations that we’ll kind of like talk about in this context is, uh, Graff Trans Personal Training. They were the ones that, um, that Stan and Christina kind of started way back.

It’s operated by Carrie Sparks these days. So long time kind of student of Stan. Um, there’s GR legacy training, which Stan is now a part of. Um, there’s a number of people we know and are friendly with that are in that organization too. Um, we’re mostly affiliated with Dream Shadow. And Kyle, you’re a certified facilitator in Dream shadow broth work, right?

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

So.

Kyle Buller: I was gonna say GTT, they certify holotropic breath work facilitators. So, uh, when they talk about holotropic breath work, that’s certified through GTT. And then, um, yeah, the Graff split off and created Graff breath work a few years ago. Um, and then our teachers, LA Elizabeth, um, they kind of branched off and created dream shadow.

Um, so just some [00:09:00] context there as we navigate terms and trademarks and stuff like that.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Cool. And, um, we’ll get into some of the differences and all that later, but, you know, really, let’s set the stage. Kyle, you just spent a lot of time developing a program introducing the concept of breath work to a psychedelic audience.

Can you. Share a little bit about what you built there.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, so we ran this course actually live, um, what was that? Last spring? And it was six weeks. It’s really fun. Yeah, it was. Um, and now we’re starting to, I’m rerecording it, um, just so it’s, uh, yeah. Not, not just like the live presentations with everybody, um, for self-study, uh, on our psychedelic education center.

And the idea, um, is really, it’s like how do we integrate breath work into our psychedelic practice? And so how can we utilize different breath practices for preparation? Also different breath practices for navigating the psychedelic [00:10:00] space and then also for the integration side of things. So really looking as breadth as a tool that we can start to use in our preparation in the navigation and in the integrations.

Of psychedelics. Um, and so we just kind of outlined the foundation of like, you know, where breath work started, some of the different theories in schools, um, how it impacts our physiology and, and mind. Um, and then talk about these different traditions, talking about like holotropic breath work, dream shadow, kind of a little bit of the differences there.

And then, um, some somatic theory and trauma-informed theory. So we can start thinking about like, when we are working with folks, whether it is just in preparation or if you’re holding space for others, how can we, you know, give those clients tools or yourself these tools as you’re navigating it as well to do some self-regulation.

Um, so you can like, you know, hopefully. Regulate and titrate the experience. What happens when it gets too much [00:11:00] and you’re like, what do I do? You know, this is becoming a really bad trip. Um, you know, being able to use the breath and different somatic stuff to work through, um, that experience. And so, yeah, we’re just really kind of like outlining, you know, what does it look like to incorporate breath and somatic practice into our preparation and the navigation of the psychedelic experience, and also on the integration side of things.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Well, thanks for that. And it’s, um, it’s an impressive looking program, so nice work there, but I love teaching it live. That was so fun. Um, you know, sharing it with so many people, it, it was a substantially big audience from what I remember. Um, yeah. Yeah, it was huge. Yeah. Um, so yeah, what we did here is prerecorded at your own pace.

We’ll probably throw in some kind of, uh. Meet with us times so you can kind of do an a MA office hours deal. Um, but yeah, so it’s kind of like back up like breath work. When we say breath work, [00:12:00] I, I’m almost at the point where I’m like a little annoyed when people say breath work. Now I’m, I do breath work.

I’m like, cool. Like, what do you mean an

Kyle Buller: umbrella term? Yeah. It means a lot of different things.

Joe Moore: Yeah. And I, I’m like at the point where I don’t love asking, so I’m like, you know, did you do yoga training? Did you go to Wim Hof? Did you do like this nine D thing? Like there’s a few other somewhat popular schools right now, right?

Kyle Buller: There’s ton. There’s like neurodynamic transformational breath work, shamanic breath work. Um, yeah, you said nine D breath work. There’s soma breath work, there’s Wim Hof breath work. Then you get into like the more of that holotropic gr style with holotropic or grof breath work or dream shadow. And then you have people just like branching off in, you know, doing all sorts of different stuff.

You have rebirthing breath work, so it is an umbrella term and there’s so many different, um, you know, perspectives on this. And so it’s just trying. We’re also trying to like. Not go through every little thing. ’cause there’s so much out there and I feel like it’s [00:13:00] so hard to cover every little, um, you know, technique out there.

But what are just like, kind of like the foundations of a lot of these? And I always think about like something my advisor in my grad program for my somatic, uh, courses such like, you know, there was so much splitting that happened in the somatic world where it seemed like this is kind of how she described it was like, it’s like Pat Ogden.

Ron Kurtz, Peter Levine, they were all kind of doing some stuff together and then they all split off and Pat Ogden created sensory motor. Ron Kurtz created omi. Peter Levine CR created, um, somatic experiencing. And so you do see a lot of like splitting, um, that happens. People get trained, they start adopting the practice and figuring out like what works, what doesn’t work.

Maybe they’re gonna change it. Maybe there’s a different philosophy that they’re approaching things from. Um, and then they branch off and, and create like a different school. Um, and so. That’s why, yeah, [00:14:00] it is an umbrella term. It can mean a lot of different things and there’s also differences in, uh, the techniques that people are, are creating.

Um, so it can be really confusing to navigate. Um, like I do hear a lot of folks say like, oh, I had a holotropic breathwork session like online that was like 30 minutes. Um, and I’m like, well, that’s not ho every work. You know? So terms also get tossed around, uh, a whole bunch. Um, and so, you know, just something to be mindful of as if you’re interested in breath work as you’re seeing, like, what, what do I do?

Um, yeah, it can be really important to like just do some research on like who do they study with? What is the practice and et cetera.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. I was at this retreat in Costa Rica. We did breath work for 42 minutes. Exactly. There was a lot of talking and coaching and that was ho breath work.

I’m like, oh God. Like, um, there’s a lot going on there. It’s an, it’s a convenient term for people to throw around. Um. You know, and I think, um, [00:15:00] you know, they’ve tried to protect it as a trademark done, you know, almost okay there. But I think it’s, you know, it’s a very specific technique and a very specific context and, um, yeah, it requires a lot of attention.

I, I love the question, Kyle, like, oh, do you do, do you do this at home by yourself? Yeah. I’m like, oh God. Like, no. ’cause it’s like not, that’s not what it is. It’s, it’s, it’s a technique that you do in a big context, right? Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, yeah. Like group process is part of that, right? It’s meant to be done in a group, not versus at like home.

And there’s nothing wrong with like, some of those techniques at home, right? Like I do it sometimes and really need it, and it’s really helpful

Joe Moore: and yeah. Moving energy. Go for it. Like if, if, if you know yourself, you can trust yourself. You know, I, I try to tell people not to do it because I think people can theoretically end up in somewhat spicy situations.

It’s like mm-hmm. You know, for the same reason I’m not telling people to eat mushrooms at home alone. [00:16:00] Right. You know, you can have very, you know, intense experiences that could get you in a little bit of trouble or, you know. Yeah. So, you know, I think people with this kind of breathing technique need to be a little careful, but also play with your breath.

It’s yours, you know? Yeah. You can experiment. You should have agency over what you do at home.

Kyle Buller: Agreed. And in this course, you know, we do explore different breath practices and it’s stuff that you, you will be doing at home, maybe by yourself, but some of ’em are a little bit more gentle. Um, and, you know, I always really encourage people to kind of feel into what feels right for them and not needing to make, you know, big experiences happen, especially if you are doing this by yourself.

Kyle Buller: yeah.

Joe Moore: So let’s kind of talk about a little bit of the history. Well, yeah. Let’s just say the history of breath work in. Psychiatry, psychology, psychoanalysis. So, you know, the [00:17:00] first thing that we generally talk about, Kyle, and you’re, you’re gonna have some things, so, you know, fill me, fill in. Where I’m kind of missing, um, is we talk about Wilhelm Reich doing breathing exercises while he’s doing psychoanalysis with his people.

So maybe the first 10, 20, 30 minutes of his psychoanalysis sessions would be accelerated breathing. Um, and I think a lot of that was to, you know, disturb, I don’t know his language. The, um, character armor. I want to define the original term, but the character armor get a little disturbed and disorganized.

So you could actually work on stuff underneath it, right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Understanding of the first,

Kyle Buller: that was the idea. Yeah. And I think like that’s where I start also in the course, like describing like Wrike and talking about his work. ’cause yeah, he, in the somatic world, they do call him like the father of somatic psychology.

Um, and always kind of preface too, Wrike had a pretty [00:18:00] controversial life, especially towards the end and kind of like a pretty interesting figure. Um, but um, yeah, so I mean he was really, I think the first more kind of like in the western development of breath work and more kind of like psychology, psychiatry.

And that idea was that, yeah, we have this. Quote unquote character armoring, that’s like really like chest, abdomen. Um, and how do we loosen that? And how does character armoring play a role in like psychopathology? And, you know, you would always, uh, say something along the lines that like, neurosis can be like found throughout the entire body.

So like, even just paying attention to like how somebody’s posture is, how they’re showing up, how that character arming is presenting. Um, we can maybe do an assessment around that posture and maybe what people need. And I know. Alexander Lowen also takes that through bioenergetics, who’s, again, another example.

[00:19:00] Alexander Lowen was a student of Reich, took some of the reiki and stuff that he learned and created bioenergetics, and then I forget who studied under, um, Lowen. But then they took that and created core energetics. Um, and so you can see kind of how that, that starts to, to happen. Um, but yeah, body posture, deeper breathing to start to work with, um, this character armoring, um, character veto analysis, I believe is the nice word.

Yeah. It takes pull.

Joe Moore: Um, yeah. I’m reminded of a Robert Anton Wilson play, um, that he wrote, uh, called Wilhelm Reich in Hell. Hmm. Which I really wanna see it. See if anybody has a video, send it over. Um, but yeah, this idea, that breath, you know, where did this come from? I think there was a current. In European psychology of mesmerism, like proto hypnosis and breathing would’ve been part of that.

Um, so he probably had some exposure to [00:20:00] that and um, yeah, who knows really where it came from. Anyway, there’s a whole history of it. And, you know, globally we have a huge history of breath. You know, all of us are breathing, that’s cultural. We stop breathing, we’re in big trouble. Um, and then, you know, if you breathe in different ways, you can modify your psyche.

You know, this is one of the very few, maybe the only things that’s in between the unconscious and conscious mind. Like you stop paying attention, you’re breathing still. Um, but. The idea is that because we can manipulate that thing potentially, this, this is kind of an abstracty kind of like fun idea. It’s be between subconscious and conscious.

And when we’re playing with this function, the breath, we can then access things that we wouldn’t be able to access otherwise through, through more conscious means. Um, and Wim Hof kind of plays with this a little bit, some of the other schools do too. Um, yeah. And, you know, in psychedelic sessions, like I remember my, my, my big ayahuasca [00:21:00] session where I, I was just like holding on and part of my holding on was helping stay focused, like staying really focused through the breath and like staying with it and that being an a, a constant anchor for hours and hours and, um, really helpful.

I couldn’t imagine if I was so disorganized that I didn’t have my breath, um, jumping in there. Um, yeah, which I don’t know, maybe that’s a crux keeping me from too many ego deaths, uh,

Kyle Buller: um, or being able to manage the ego death in a, a different way, you know? Um, being able to stick with it, um, a little bit more than maybe just being completely overtaken by fear and anxiety.

Joe Moore: So the, well, a few things. So a lot of people here at Breath work, they kind of roll their eyes like you did, and you’re just like, oh, maybe, maybe this is just kind of junk. Like, why would I do that if I could eat [00:22:00] these psychedelics or smoke this thing? Um. And, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of reasons to do that.

Fair question. Um, but yeah, let’s talk about like, the big obvious one that people have is like, can I still have big experiences here and are they as meaningful? And like, can you have ego death here? I, I, you know, annoyed by the ego death term, I’m gonna try to stop using it. Yeah. What do you think? You can definitely have

Kyle Buller: big experiences with doing breath work for sure.

That’s what got me turned onto it. Um, when I first went to that workshop in, uh, 2010, um, I breathed on Halloween and I did it the second day. So I was able to be in the room and watch everybody, and I just kept thinking. You know, I’m watching everybody kind of like have these big emotional catharsis, physical catharsis, and in the back of my mind I’m like, people are making this shit up.

Like this is not real. There was a part of me, I’m like, what is going on right now? This stuff seems so wild and weird and [00:23:00] people are probably just overexaggerating, uh, a lot of this stuff. So again, my skeptical mind was like still on and thinking like, what’s going on here? Um, to the point where I’m like, do I leave?

You know, like, what did I just sign up for this? This also seems really weird. Um, and when I had my first experience, I mean, I was completely blown away. I mean, it was a full on. Psychedelic experience for me, um, reliving things that I had in a psychedelic experience, relive like a birth process. Also relive like parts of like this near death experience that I often talk about.

And I was just like really blown away by like, how could that be possible? Um, by just like breathing deeply with music in a group. Um, and, you know, just really, really got me so interested in it. And that’s not all the time, you know, and I, I always like to remind people that like, yes, sometimes this [00:24:00] happens and we can have really big experiences.

Other times you fall asleep and it’s boring and you rest for three hours. Um, and so you can have the range of experience and there’s nothing wrong with that rest. The times that where I’ve had those rest experiences and quote unquote nothing happening, I’ve also found great benefit in it where I’m like, oh wow.

Like I actually just spent three hours just turning my brain off and resting for a bit and actually really needed that. ’cause I haven’t been able to create that time in my life to just do that and in that type of capacity. And so there’s also benefit in there of like when the quote unquote things don’t happen, um, can actually be the medicine that we’re probably looking for.

But in terms of your question around also ego death, um, yeah, that’s like an interesting thing. ’cause I think like, I don’t know, I’ve examined my near death experience where I’d say like, was there a loss of ego? Did I have ego death? I don’t know if it [00:25:00] was like full on. Um, you know, dying of the ego. There was a part of me that felt like that I, well, I was physically dying, but like there was a part of me that was still online.

And then there was a part of me that was like kind of elsewhere when I had my first ego death experience with psilocybin and psychedelics. That part, like wasn’t online at all. Um, it was like, who the hell am I, like when I was actually dying, there was a part of me, I knew who I still was, but there was also like this weird, mystical, spiritual thing unfolding.

And I’ve had that with psychedelics, but there’s this part where I’m like, I don’t know my name. I don’t know anything about myself. I don’t know what year it is. I don’t know where I am in space and time. And I’ve kind of had like a little bit of that in breathwork experiences where like, maybe, I don’t know what time it is or like.

Maybe I’m so in an experience where I’m just kind of like confused. But [00:26:00] I don’t think I’ve ever had like a full on ego dissolution, ego death like I’ve had on psychedelics. And maybe psychedelics are just really unique with that. Um, where it’s just like, yeah, you can forget your name. You can forget like where you are, who you are, like what the hell is going on.

But I’ve also had that with cannabis too, you know, not just even psychedelics. Um, like so, but I don’t think I’ve ever had like, full on ego death with breath work. Have you, or like how do you define ego death and how do you kind of explore that? I

Joe Moore: find it so problematic as a term. Um, ’cause we don’t, as a culture have a great definition for ego and then like, ego death, it’s like, what are we talking about and why?

Like, I, I like a way I’ve heard Stan talk about it in the past where it’s like, um, you know, the persona. Like kind of loses its energy. Maybe this is like wildly deep paraphrasing, so, you know, yeah. I, I’m not quoting stand here at all, but like, the persona [00:27:00] as a mask. Like we think about the Greek, like the persona just kind of like fading away and then the real, you still persists.

So like the, those elements that aren’t the real you, that are kind of like, um, your construct through which you, it helps you kind of like navigate the world, you know, that goes away and then you’re just there, you know, realizing that those things are kind of constructs. Um, you know, I don’t, I don’t necessarily think you need to have like the, I’m dying, I’m freaking out.

I’m scared thing. Yeah. For that, for it to be like ego death. Um. Yeah. So, you know, I don’t know. I’m not one of these redditers that’s like focused on ego death competitions or something, you know? I think there’s potentially value there clinically, but I don’t, I don’t know. Um, yeah, so anyway, I think the point I like to make about the intensity in breath work is that it can be as intense as psychedelic sessions.

Like [00:28:00] maybe certain features of the experience would be a little different. Mm-hmm. But, you know, maybe not. Maybe there’s a lot of overlap too. Like, I think, um, my biggest breath work experience is on par with my monster LSD overdose and my big ayahuasca experience. So that’s how I, I feel

Kyle Buller: too. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yeah, and Stan and Lenny had conversations about this same thing.

Like, you know, Stan Stan’s in a lot of LSD and, um, sad for a lot of LSD and, you know, I don’t, I don’t think he would be a believer in hoja breath work and, and these other methods if, huh? Same method, different trademark, I guess. Kind of, kind of not, don’t sue me, anybody. Um, but yeah, like the idea that there’s, um, you know, a lot of similarity and a lot of overlap.

And then I model it Kyle to say like, there’s, this is all just us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, like, and we have the ability to [00:29:00] have this magic on board all the time. I remember talking to some DMT people about it and they were like, this actually makes it feel less magical. Mm. That have these experiences without a drug.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t follow. But you know, I think it’s really cool that it’s all in us.

Kyle Buller: Well, I mean, if we look cross-culturally throughout, like history, right? It’s like humans have always had some sort of relationship with consciousness, whether it was through meditation, whether it was through breath work, different breathing practices, whether it was through psychedelics, whether it was through yoga, you know, really intense rites of passages to bloodletting, to isolation, to other types of vision quests like.

We humans have figured out a way to engage with this, and they sometimes get to the same place, right? And maybe it’s not as colorful or geometric as like one technique. And so I always think it is that amplification of our [00:30:00] ourself in our relationship to the universe, however you wanna define that, but we’re able to open up to ourselves and whatever else is there when we can engage with these, these practices.

And, you know, if you have yogis or, you know, uh, meditation teachers and gurus and talking about a similar kind of like enlightenment experience that somebody on DMT or psychedelics is having, you know, how do you. How, how do you analyze that? Right? It’s like, okay, well one had like, you know, all these geometric forms and like entities.

This was like a different type of experience where, you know, it’s maybe you’re not having those entities, but then you, you get into some traditions and they talk about entities in their meditation and they have their whole realms that they go through. And it’s like, you know, if, if you were to hear that at face value, you’d be like, wow, this sounds like a DMT trip.

You know? Um, but maybe you’re not getting all the fractal geometric hallucinations with [00:31:00] it, but it’s a different type of experience. And so I always do like to frame it that way. I think Lenny has done a good job framing it that way too. Is that like. These are all, these are vehicles and they’re amplifiers of ourself.

Um, and there’s just different avenues to get there. Um, and I would say that they’re all valid. Um, you know. Mm-hmm. One’s not val, one’s not, not valid because, you know, you didn’t take a drug and you, you didn’t have this like, really profound experience, you know, if somebody found or relived a trauma doing breath work, is that just as valid as, you know, taking MDMA and reliving your trauma and healing from it and say, yeah.

You know, there, there are different paths.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes we want to think like, oh, I’m on this one path with ayahuasca and, and the things that I learned there aren’t gonna show up in my other kind of worlds. Which isn’t really true. Like, it’s the things that you developed elsewhere are gonna show up.

It’s all, it’s always ingredient in the [00:32:00] experience in the current moment. Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s developing. And I think, I think it’s, it’s, it’s complicated because there’s so many ideologies in metaphysics. We get pushed. Being in psychedelic space, it’s so hard to navigate. Um, but you know, I’m just giving you all compassion out there.

Like, this is not an easy space to understand.

Kyle Buller: Definitely complex.

Joe Moore: Um, all right. So there, so again, let’s, let’s just remind everybody, this is promoting a class that Kyle just put together that we taught earlier this year, maybe in the spring. And it’s a foundations of breathwork class. It’s gonna help you wrap your head around the breathwork topic in a framework that’s, um, compatible with the psychedelic, you know, frameworks that we teach.

Is that fair?

Yeah.

Um, yeah. So we’re not giving you facilitator training here, but you’re gonna walk away with some stuff you can do on [00:33:00] your own, some stuff you might be able to try with clients or friends here and there. Um. But yeah, it’s, um, it’s a step one

Kyle Buller: and I think it is important to like, for us to like cultivate these practices ourselves, especially if we are doing a lot of this inner exploration.

Like, you know, as you said, Joe, like I wish everybody could like, you know, do these practices before engaging in psychedelics because it helps to provide that foundation. Um, and I think the more I’ve been doing this work, the more. I think I’ve been focused on what are these foundational skills that we can use when we go into these spaces without necessarily just jumping into the deep end.

Like most of us wouldn’t jump into the deep end maybe, unless you’re pretty naive or kid and your friends are daring. You too. I used to be a lifeguard and that used to happen, but like for the most part, people were scared of the deep end. If they couldn’t swim, you know, they would wanna dip their toes in a little bit and, and get used to the water.

Um, you know, you wouldn’t ride a black diamond if [00:34:00] you’re a beginner skier snowboarder. You’re gonna take the bunny slopes and learn those foundational skills. And I think right now in our culture, psychedelics are very trendy and people are just wanting these quick fixes and big changes and, you know.

Psychedelics are kind of being sold like that. And you know, I think we’re probably guilty of talking about it in early days and probably having podcasts and headlines that kind of show that. But it’s like, you know, what’s the work that we’re bringing into the psychedelic experience and how do we build those foundational skills?

Um, you know, if we look at like other traditions, like in shamanic practices or yoga, right? Like you didn’t just go blast off. There are usually stepping stones to get there. But, you know, we live in this like interesting time in the world where we just have instant access to things in a way and we can just jump into the deep end, um, without necessarily building the foundation.

Um, and so. I think that’s a big, also part of the reason [00:35:00] of like putting this type of course together, it’s like how do we start to talk about these foundational skills that we can practice before actually doing these deep dives? And I think, you know, I’ve, over the years I’m like, wow, like my, actually my psychedelic experiences have changed since doing more of these practices.

It allows me to hold traumas that are emerging. It’s, it’s making me more aware of my window of tolerance versus like, before I was just in the deep end, I’m like, just drowning. You know? I’m like, what the fuck is going on right now? Um, where’s like, you know, that can still happen. Um, but it’s just like, I feel like I’m a little bit more aware on like how to work with the difficulty that, that that’s coming up.

Um, but you also just never know. Psychedelics are unpredictable and, you know, sometimes you’ve been having really great sessions and all of a sudden you get struck by lightning and you’re like, what the hell just happened there?

Joe Moore: Yeah. I’m like, uh. One of the risks and one of the dangers in [00:36:00] psychedelia is kind of keeping up with the Joneses.

You know, like, oh, this is an interesting community and scene. I’m gonna try to get as many experiences I can so I can be part of this community and scene, um, and be more accepted. Um, and that’s really risky. Yeah, I think people should really, if they can go slow, do as little as possible for the first while, um, because it’s a lot less work.

You know, if you, you could, you know, if you do too much LSD or something, you might require a reasonable amount of therapy afterwards. Or you could end up with HPPD, which not very many people have good frameworks for treating or whatever it is, right. It’s, um. I think that’s an important Don’t Pokemon.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I feel like that’s like an important conversation that like we don’t always talk about. Like I think about when I ended up going to Burlington College and like studying transpersonal psychology and [00:37:00] psychedelics, it’s like I was actually, I think using that as a way to treat all my psychedelic trauma.

You know, it was like I needed to do all this work from like all the stuff I was experiencing with those psychedelics where I’m like, I think I just traumatized myself by like all this big stuff coming up too quickly and not knowing how to contain it in my nervous system and actually work with it. And I think like, I just was like, oh man, I’ll just do more.

I’ll just do it again and see what happens. And, you know, that’s probably not the best way to go about doing things. Um, you know, take, take your time and, you know, really integrate.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the idea is that we have this body, body-based practice that. Allows you to experiment with these states in a really, really safe container, uh, with other people.

Um, all around. It’s not even just one-on-one, which is a little exposed. It’s not even, you know, you [00:38:00] alone. Um, but it’s you within a big group, so you have some safety there, and I think that’s huge. Um, and let’s kinda talk about graph lineage, breath work and like the components. So we have accelerated breathing, we’ve got.

Kyle Buller: Evocative music.

Joe Moore: Thank you. I got stuck on the body work component ’cause we had some interesting conversations about body work recently. But yeah, we’ve got the evocative music, body work, artistic expression group process. Um, and then, um, a friend told me once safety is the sixth ingredient. Um, should, you know, we don’t really name that usually when we give the list, but it’s important and I think it’s clever to, to use that as a sixth ingredient.

Um, you know, body work stuff comes up in your body. Sometimes it helps to get a little pressure or express it or press against it or whatever it is, wherever it is. Um, this is not doing [00:39:00] massage. This is not any kind of like programmatic technique. This is like, oh, my hands feel a little funny. Maybe. Maybe press.

Or, uh, mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about like other terms. I know like there’s some people that call it focus body work. I forget like what some of my other friends and colleagues have called it. Um, but I think body work is part of it, but yeah. Is there like a, a different term there too? Like I, ’cause I’ve been, I think we talked about this on like the one, uh, podcast that we did last month or two months ago.

Um, I kind of see it more as like a supportive process for a person. They have a type of experience that needs, they want to express or that they, that might be coming up in their body and how do we support that process? And so that expression might be. I have tingling in my hands, my hands wanna push against something.

So it’s like, how do we support that process of somebody pushing, um, or, you know, somebody needs a supportive process [00:40:00] in, uh, yeah. Um, you know, relaxing. You know, I, that’s something I’ve been also exploring. It’s like, you know, sometimes people say, I have a hard time relaxing right now, or I have this like, you know, pit in my stomach.

So I also think it’s like, how do you support people in that? And that might not actually be hands-on. That might just be actually asking somebody. I was like, what does it feel like to relax right now? And then they’re doing kind of like their own process into that. Um, and so, you know, sometimes people can do their own body work, right?

But it gets in this position where it’s like you get an angle where you can’t do that. Like I do a lot of my own stuff when I do breath work, but then I get into these situations where I need to like push or I wanna express something. I just can’t contain that and I need support in somebody to create that container to express that.

So, you know, maybe it’s just like the towel thing comes up a lot for me with the neck and it’s like I need somebody there to like do this towel thing with my neck to, ’cause I can’t, I could do that [00:41:00] myself, but it’s actually really helpful if somebody else is holding that tension there and I’m, you know, projecting that feeling out onto the towel there.

So

Joe Moore: I don’t know how you kind of describe that. Towel technique, the neck technique, just not everybody’s watching the video, right? Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a weird one. It feels edgy.

Kyle Buller: Definitely. Definitely edgy. Um, and you don’t do it with everybody, right? It’s like, not something you always bring up, but like the idea is, and I found this to be helpful, so it’s, I think some, I have a lot of energy that comes up in my neck and my jaw when I do breath work.

And, um, so you can have two people sit beside you and they hold a towel just above your neck. And the idea is that the breather takes it and grips it, and then you’re kind of transferring that energy into the towel. And so. You could say anger lives in this area, right? Stress and anger. And so if somebody’s just holding and having the tension on the towel, so it [00:42:00] creates that tension that I could grip it in a way, and then I’m actually like just gripping the towel and projecting that anger out onto it.

So it might look like this, and I’m like screaming into it. And so like, I’m not choking myself. I’m not doing anything. I’m just using this as a way to like, take that anger outta my hands and my throat and using the towel as a way to use it, project onto it in a way. So that’s kind of like the, the basic idea.

Um, and yeah, I don’t know. I’ve always found that to be helpful to express an experience, um mm-hmm. And doesn’t, you know, sometimes it doesn’t work and then I go, I don’t wanna do this. You know? And Yeah. And you don’t do it,

Joe Moore: do you? Like, so, so it’s funny, right? Because there’s like the facilitators, the support people, like that’s, we’re not really doing anything.

Other than standing there in that one. Yeah. And kind of like, Hey, maybe try this. Um, and if you don’t, all good. Um, and [00:43:00] then, yeah, it’s, it’s funny how it can get a little kind of complicated to express that, but we wanna, let’s keep staying on, but breath work more generally. We can do kind of like a series on, um, body work again in the near term, or let’s say work that relates to the body, um, come up with, with a new term maybe.

Yeah, maybe if anybody has ideas, info at psychedelics say, or pit us up in socials. Um, but yeah, like really there’s, you know, this artistic expression thing, which is super cool. Um, there’s, you know, uh, the music, I love that I’m building a music class. We should have that out in a few weeks, hopefully. Um, so stay tuned, everybody for that music psychedelics, but informed heavily by the gro uh, breathwork lineage.

And then, uh, let’s see, what else. Group process is interesting. Like it’s, you know, doing something alone versus doing something when [00:44:00] 10 people are watching you or doing it at the same time. So different. I was thinking about this in the context of, uh, did you ever see the meditation studies where it’s like meditators meditate together and they have this like kind of coherence effect on each other and there’s like enhanced effect when they’re doing it together.

Kyle Buller: Makes sense. I don’t think I’ve seen any of those studies, but, um,

Joe Moore: a lot of the transcendental meditation people, like were, you know, it was so expensive. So they had a lot of money for, for research. Um, uh, yeah, I didn’t get training, but I got pretty deeply indoctrinated there. But the idea is that when you’re doing the same thing, you can kind of get entrained.

Kind of like, um, uh, mirror neurons. Maybe there’s some sort of energetic thing going on. But, you know, chanting together, like doing cureton together, super interesting feeling versus doing it alone. And then, um, even watching movies in a theater versus watching at home alone. Super different experience.

Mm-hmm. Um, concerts, like listening, listening to Phish at home [00:45:00] and recording versus being there very different energetically. Yeah. Um, you know, watching basketball, you know, same thing. Anyway, so being in a group doing kind of this inner work together feels more supportive to me. Sometimes it can feel exposing to people if they’re not ready to come out about material that they don’t wanna share, which is totally fine.

You don’t have to share stuff. But I think there’s something to these group. Things. What do you think?

Kyle Buller: Yeah, I definitely, you know, I always think about something Lenny always mentioned like, we’re the descendants of successful tribes and folks that usually went off on their own, usually didn’t make it. Um, and that is our most primal fear, right?

And it is like almost embedded. Like, what if I’m not accepted into the group, you know, then I’m all alone. And so, you know, we are working with like some of that primal energy of like, you know, we are meant to be in relationship, but that can also be scary because of maybe, you know, being [00:46:00] out pushed outside the group.

There’s a really great book by, uh, Luis Kino called The Neuroscience of Human Relationships, or maybe just the neuroscience of relationships. Um, and you know, he goes into a lot of details around the brain being a social organ, um, that it’s really wired for communication and connection. Um, and he also talks about like, um.

You know, uh, mirror neurons and how powerful that is. Um, and how yeah, getting in that residence, how much the brain actually tries to pick up a lot of nonverbals. Um, and how we are kind of just sending messages to each other sometimes by not always verbalizing things. And so, yeah, I think, um, the group experience is really powerful.

It’s also. You know, not just like the breath work experience, but also like the sharing to be heard, seen and witnessed by your peers or by a group to know that you’re not alone. Um, that’s also really powerful just to come together with [00:47:00] like other like-minded people and share a story and not feel judged.

Um, that’s really profound, you know? ’cause you might be in circles where you share something and there’s judgment that comes up and then you shut down and you don’t wanna share, um, because of things that have happened in the past. So I think the group process is a really big part of this. Um, and I think a lot of like therapeutic work, um, that is kind of done in group.

It’s like how much does the group actually play a role, um, in that, in that healing or therapeutic process,

Joe Moore: right? And then there’s this aspect of agency and you’re the world’s foremost expert in you. And like, I, I love this kind of, I don’t know about inversion, but the, the idea that. You being supported in your process of self-discovery versus like being told about you.

Um, and there’s also this element of by controlling the breath, by [00:48:00] controlling, you know, if you’re gonna do body work or not and what kind, whatever, you know, you’re actually gaining more agency and healing through agency. Um, and I, I find that really clever. Did you, was that part at all of your, um, your capstone project, trauma-informed

Kyle Buller: work?

Yeah. Um, I might have written about it. Um, but I know that was also part of my process too. Um, where I think when I was. Doing a lot of healing work seeking after like, you know, different healers, different techniques, substances, and trying to like place all that agency and authority onto that person. And I think when I came across breath work, um, it was like, oh wait, this is me.

Like I’m doing this. Like I don’t have the acupuncturist like sticking needles in me to try to heal me. I’m not taking a psychedelic to try to heal me. Um, and having like this external like substance [00:49:00] impacting, I’m not going to my shamanic. Healer to try to get healing done. Um, it was like, oh wait, this is me.

This is my experience. And I get to also control it. If it’s getting too intense, I slow the process down and stop breathing, you know, and I can just lay here and nobody’s gonna tell me to keep breathing. You know, like I can just lay here if I wanna lay here. And, you know, I think that is something that’s like really nice about that practice is like the agency.

’cause I think a lot of in healing too. A lot of us were ripped from agency. When we think about traumas and things that have happened to us to try to, you know, just regain control is terrifying. To trust again can be really terrifying. And so I think that whole process of like trusting yourself going where you need to go, um, can be really profound.

And I think that was a big part of my, my healing process and why I really started to gravitate towards breath work. It was like a stop trying to put this on everybody else to do this for me. [00:50:00] I now have this like container where I can like explore this myself. Um, without that external factor. I mean obviously there’s external factors, right?

You have the group, you have the music, you have all this stuff, but um, it feels like it’s you.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I know. Temporary, uh, temporary relationship with a group of people that can be really helpful. Um, a thing I never really got the chance to ask you, Kyle, is around this, um, window of tolerance concept and trauma.

And you’re talking a little bit about like, um, with some psychedelic experiences you could push the gas a little bit too hard and end up with some traumas. And I’m wondering about the relationship of that kind of concept to this window of tolerance framework where like, if you can tolerate something as opposed to like kind of falling apart in these upper limit experiences, I, you know, I high stress outside.

Is that like, is there some sort of way to skillfully speak about [00:51:00] those periods of time outside of your window of tolerance being traumatic? Is that a framework that people talk about? Um,

Kyle Buller: I think we’re, I think like people are starting to talk about it a little bit more, um mm-hmm. You know, now that like somatic and nervous system stuff is becoming a little bit more like buzzwords and like trendy.

Um, so I’m glad people are starting to, to talk about this stuff. Um, but yeah, it’s like what happens like when we take on too much stress? Um, too much fear, too much panic, right? It’s like body either goes into like fight or flight or freezes and shuts down, right? And it’s like, it’s just our nervous system, like can’t really tolerate it.

So we go into like these survival mechanisms and like when we’re having like these really difficult psychedelic experiences, like how is that flood of like information. Putting you into fight or fight. Fight or fight. Um, or you kind of go into like a freeze and shutdown mode, right? And it’s like just too [00:52:00] overwhelming for you to actually like process, uh, the information.

Um, and you know, how can that then compound and possibly leave a little bit of like, yeah, trauma and distress in the nervous system where you’re like, am I gonna do that again? Right. And you hear this from folks that have had really bad trips, you know, and they’re still processing it like a year out or like two years out and they’re like, I don’t know if he’ll ever touch psychedelics again.

Like, that was terrifying. And you know, I know Terrence McKenna got criticized for this, um, because there was a point in his life where I think he actually stopped eating mushrooms. Um, and I forget where it’s written, um, or who talks about it, but it’s like he had just one really. Bad trip. Um, and it freaked him out supposedly, and he kind of stopped, um, for, I don’t know if he stopped completely or it was for an extended period of time.

Um, and it’s like, how is that continuing to live inside of you, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, best we know [00:53:00] it was the rest of his life and as you know, stuff can be really scary. Yeah. Yeah. And really leave a mark. Um, and I, yeah, I wonder, and we’re talking about like, uh, like actual trauma, not like I’m traumatized ’cause I missed the bus.

You know, like really serious stuff. Um, and yeah, so breath work I like as a, a means towards regulation, A means towards, I have agency over my body, nervous system. And then, um, with psychedelics, I think it’s a really helpful way to, um, help people kind of. I don’t know, swim through the experience, float through the experience a little bit.

Um, stay

Kyle Buller: grounded, you know, uh, an example that I sometimes give, it’s like I was doing a ketamine training and after the second, uh, shot, and it was a pretty low dose, like compared to [00:54:00] like what everybody got. I mean, it was pretty low dose. Um mm-hmm. And that started to bring up all my near death experience trauma.

Um, and so it’s like here’s a trauma that lives inside of me. It’s starting to then hijack my system as I’m starting to relive this experience under the ketamine. And then coupled with like the dissociative effect of ketamine. And now it’s like playing onto, am I dying actually? And so it’s like coupled with I feel like I’m back in the er.

I just got these shots, which I hate shots because like when I was in that situation and my veins were collapsing, they just kept jabbing me with needles. Sorry if that’s triggering for folks, but it’s like, you know, this was starting to come up in this session and this is starting to then activate my, my nervousness and then I’m starting to get into like this fight or flight response I need, what’s going on?

Like, I need to distract myself. I need to like get outta here. Like I [00:55:00] almost took off my eye shades and like almost like got up ’cause it was like, it was just too much for me to like go through that again. Um, and you know, I’m like sitting there checking my pulse and I’m like, okay. But then I’m like. I’ve been through this so many times, you know, like it’s, it’s part of my story.

I’ve been working on this for like over 20 something years at this point, but I think that just shows like how these experiences can still live inside of you. And so my nervous system just can’t tolerate this experience. It’s getting too overwhelming. And again, like I’m kind of getting into like, I need to get outta here.

I need to like, you know, get up, leave. I need to distract myself to make sure I’m like, okay. Um, and then I had to come back and say, I have my breath. I know this is part of my story. I know I’m actually okay. I’m gonna take a nice big, deep breath into my stomach. I’m gonna sit with the anxiety, ’cause I know this is gonna pass.

And just starting to breathe with the discomfort and starting to like, figure out like, why is this anxiety coming up [00:56:00] right now? Oh, okay, this is an old trauma, this is an old narrative. Um, I can SI can be with this. And so being able to stick with the breath and the breath started to become the anchor in that situation where I was able to really just ride through that experience without, you know, um, going into like complete panic mode, right?

Like, I think if I like didn’t have all that experience and, you know, spent years working through this and like, it was just like, again, new. Like, I probably would’ve tried to take off my eye shades and got up and probably left or walked around or like, you know, probably start screaming like, help, you know?

Um, and that happens, right? People that like, it’s too much too quick and like you don’t have familiarity with that terrain. It can be really, really overwhelming. Um, but again, I was like really thankful that I’m like, okay, like I have all this training, all this experience with like more somatic techniques and breath work.

I can actually stick with this and let this experience ride out. I don’t need to shut it down. I don’t need to [00:57:00] stop it. I can actually be with it and let it unfold. And that’s what I did. I let that unfold by just sticking with it and breathing through it. Um, and, you know, I was able to get out on the other side and, you know, again, this is something that just comes up pretty often in, in these experiences.

Um, and something that, you know, I’ll probably continue to work through for the rest of my life in a way. But at least it’s like I have that skill. I think in those early years. What would happen is that I would black out, like it would be too much where I would just like kind of close my eyes and like just go into panic mode and like, and or I would start distracting myself.

Um, and like, just like, yeah, I would get into this like high alert panic mode and just like, just be completely like, you know, in, in fear. Um, and you know, it’s like I’ve tried to learn to work with it in different ways over the years. So that’s like an example of like how that, that psychedelic could bring on an old trauma that [00:58:00] could get you outside that window of tolerance and then your nervous system is starting to react, whether it’s that freeze as a shutdown or you’re trying to like, get out of the situation, you’re in panic and fear anxiety and it’s like, how do we use our breath to come back to this baseline so we can stick with the experience to not fully suppress it, not fully get distracted by it, but, you know, be able to, to be with it.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Huh. So that’s kind of a good overall outline of breath work. I think it’s a really safe method. It’s an important method that people should learn. It’s, um, for me it’s the foundations of how I like to approach psychedelics generally. Um, it’s kind of, uh, very much in line with, um, you know, being as

light on dogma as possible and high on technique. Like, here’s the technique, here’s how you be safe, and [00:59:00] then go for it. Whatever happens is for you to sort out and we can help you. Um, yeah, and there’s so many ways, guys, there’s so many ways to approach breath work. This is, this is, you know, our thing is one method, one framework.

There’s so many ways. You know, um, I think it’s really important for people to spend time with breath work, things like vagal tone, um, assorted, you know, things pro. I wouldn’t be surprised if, um, heart rate variability was impacted by different breath work practices. I actually remember. Oh, totally. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember some clinicians actually doing that with me after my brain injury. Um, yeah, so, you know, there’s a lot of fun stuff there and a lot of room for. Growth. So yeah,

Kyle Buller: I’m glad to see that there’s like more research coming out too. So like, I think like one of the breath work, uh, practices that has research around like, um, heart rate variability is like resonance breath.

So you’re trying to drop your breath to [01:00:00] around six breaths per minute, so you’re really slowing the breath down. Um, I was just digging up some papers around like the, uh, similarities between breath work and psychedelic states. Um, and showing like what those breath work, like how breath work does have similar, uh, mechanisms as psychedelics with like, you know, default mode network.

Also the types of experiences of like this oceanic bliss that can come up in psychedelics and, and breath work. Um, and then yeah, also like the um. The increase in heart rate variability, which is really great to see. Um, and yeah, there’s these different types of breath work, right? You can do the more activating, intensified breathing, or you could do like this slow parasympathetic, uh, breathing that helps with the rest and digest and, and calming the nervous system.

So then you can see breath is a tool, right? It’s a flexible tool in which, how do you use it in whatever case that you need. Um, and, you know, I think that’s why there’s lots of different breath work practices and techniques out [01:01:00] there. Um, lots of different ways to approach it.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So, um, if you want to learn more about breath work, which I hope you do, please, please, please check out the course that Kyle just built.

Psychedelic education center.com. Uh, we’re doing a discount for a few days. Um. For the, what are we calling it, the holiday, call it end of year

Kyle Buller: sale or something like that.

Joe Moore: So it’s very limited time, so check it out if you wanna save a little bit of cash. Um, and it would be really great if you, um, took it, let us know and tell your friends how much you liked it.

We really liked teaching it live. We wanted to make it more accessible. So here’s the more accessible version. Uh, and we’ll

Kyle Buller: have some open office hours where you can drop in and chat. And then, um, also planning some live online breath work sessions. So there are those exercises. You can do everything online as like self-paced, but as you’re talking Joe with like [01:02:00] group process, like, you know, it might be nice to find a time to get together to do an actual online breath work experience with others, um, wherever they’re calling in from.

So we’ll also plan a few of those where if you do join and then we can do some also live online breath work as well.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Great. And then, um, stay tuned everybody. We have so much coming, um, so much on the, on the menu. Uh, we’ll have some breath work workshops that we’ll be facilitating in the near term.

Um, so kind of full weekends, um, or full days, which are exhausting, but still pretty good. Um, and then, uh, we’ve done, what was that, two in Breckenridge this year, which is really great. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s fun. Um, yeah. And what else do we have coming up that music program I’m developing, we got the digital security class that people should check out.

It’s really important if you’re keeping records, that you keep those records safe, um, from all sorts of people. And then, um, [01:03:00] yeah, I don’t know, there’s just so much. And we have some film screenings coming up. Uh, we’ve got a book club trip sitting by Julian Vay, um, is I think coming up mid next month. And in January we have the, um.

Film Last Journey, uh, reason tv. Put that together. Um, and it’s a, it’s a short film of people in their, um, kind of end of life era, uh, trying mushrooms and getting some relief. Cool. Yeah, I’m really excited about that. Um, and that’s part of our navigators community to do the club and video, you know, so psychedelics today.com/navigators if you wanna join that.

And, uh, Kyle and I are also offering up some coaching. So if you wanna learn more about that info@psychedelicstoday.com, that’s for business and personal transformation stuff, or hopes and dreams or, you know, on my side, if you’re trying to plan out what you’re gonna do on New Year’s, I’m happy to help. Um, you know, and then, [01:04:00] you know, stuff like Burning Man, what are you gonna do?

How are you gonna have a strategy for next year? You know? Yeah. Or if you’ve had like a client with

Kyle Buller: difficult integration or psychedelic and needing some support or consultation there, happy to chat with folks about that too.

Joe Moore: Yeah. So stay tuned, keep keep tuning in. Psychedelics today. We’ve got a lot coming.

Uh, we want to keep helping you. And thank you all for tuning in. Um, yeah, we’re just peaking at 103 viewers right now on the streams, Kyle, so I’m like, do stay. No, we should wrap. Got more, got more work to do other than streaming. Um, yeah, anything you wanna mention before we wrap

Kyle Buller: one day? That might be fun.

Just hang out on here and answer questions and stuff. Um, no. Yeah, if you’re interested in learning more about breath work, and again, this breath work course, um, just doesn’t go over kind of like that long form. Go, go over like lots of different practices and techniques there. Um, and yeah, check that out.

Psychedelic education center.com. Um, and yeah, for those that are [01:05:00] celebrating holidays and traveling, safe travels wherever you’re going or whatever you’re doing. So hopefully you guys have a wonderful week. All right. Thanks

Joe Moore: Kyle. Thanks everybody for tuning in, until next time.