This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies.

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] I think yeah. Hi everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics today. Joe Moore here joined by Eva. Eva, how are you today?
Ivar Goksøyr : Pretty good, thank you. Thank you. How about yourself?
Joe Moore: Oh, I’m doing lovely, beautiful Autumn day here. It’s a peak foliage in the mountains of Colorado right now. Mm-hmm. It’s glorious, glorious beautiful.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, I think I’m fully recovered from Burning Man. Um, so
Ivar Goksøyr : it’s like a month ago or something. Oh my gosh.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It takes a long time emotionally, at least it’s,
Joe Moore: yeah. So I’m excited to talk today. You’ve been up to some really interesting things around advocating for new forms of, um, I guess new additions to, uh, MDMA psychotherapy training and, um. Yeah, can you give us like a high, high level overview of, of what these changes are and then we can [00:01:00] start talking about you.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, sure. So, you know, I’m a member of the psychedelic research team here in Norway, and we’ve done a couple of MDMA studies, one on PTSD and the world’s first on MDMA for depression. And then I’m also running an online, uh, training in MDMA assisted therapy, uh, and the wounded Healer, that’s what it’s called.
Ivar Goksøyr : And. In this training, I show authentic, uh, footage from my own MDMA sessions and, uh, focusing in on, on, uh, the professional development I gained from the personal growth, from the trauma healing I experienced as part of that, uh, uh, MDMA, uh, therapy. Uh, uh, so, and, and building on those experiences, how, how much that MDMA therapy helped me in, in my role as a therapist.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also reading up on other literature and, and looking into that this is, you know, something that so many people report. We’re in the process now, uh, incorporation with the University of Oslo to set up an EM Pathogen Assisted Therapies Development project. So, uh, not, uh, giving [00:02:00] MDMA, uh, to therapists to train them as MDMA therapist, but to, uh, help them with their professional growth.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through personal growth. So that’s the main, uh, project that I’m leading right now, and that I hope that we can, uh, you know, get some attention to, and maybe some more funding from, from our conversation today.
Joe Moore: That’s, you know, amazing. Uh, it’s like, so. Uh, needed in so many ways. And, you know, it’s, it’s the general conventional wisdom.
Joe Moore: Um, and so to be clear, you are, you, you used footage from your session, so it’s you on the videotapes.
Ivar Goksøyr : That’s right. So I’m the patient and I’m also kind of the, uh, the host, uh, analyzing my own, uh, experiences as a, as a patient in, um, this is also important to say from a legal trial, FDA approved trial, uh, healthy volunteers.
Ivar Goksøyr : So it was part of my training, uh, to be in maps, uh, therapist. So [00:03:00] yes, so, uh, so a range of clinical phenomenon will be shown and, and you get to show, you know, uh, how MDMA therapy is delivered and you get the benefit from looking at live, uh, photos. And, uh, and then also we keep the focus on themes that is probably relevant for, if not.
Ivar Goksøyr : Most wounded healers, uh, because, you know, most of us come into this strange profession. You know, while most people would like to have other people’s pain at a, you know, at a certain distance, there are some of us that really seeks to, you know, get closer to, to transform it. And most often that’s because we’ve been, uh, forced to, you know, traverse certain complex emotional terrains from we were kids and many of us have.
Ivar Goksøyr : Taken on certain roles, and, and I believe that, uh, we are very much triggered on some of the core wounds, uh, at a daily basis in our jobs. And of course, we, we all, this is nothing new and we all work on those things. [00:04:00] Uh, but many of us, myself included, even though a lot of supervision and therapy is really helpful and you get, uh, you know, uh, more consciousness on some issues you have, and you also overcome some obstacles, then it is hard to change these more ingrained patterns.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, MDMA known as a catalyst for therapy just stands to reason that it might help, uh, us as, uh, therapists as well as patients. Of course.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So let’s, let’s kind of talk about your professional path. How, how did you kind of take this professional route and end up, um, curious about MDMA and, and, uh, seemingly passionate about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, so, you know, ever, I would say since I was a kid, I, I kind of had this perspective that I, I don’t know, most, most children have maybe a close connection with the light. And I grew up and watched the adults in my life and they seem to be suffering and they seem to not understand their own or [00:05:00] each other suffering.
Ivar Goksøyr : And they were judging each other. So I felt from an early age that there was so much unnecessary suffering going on, and I was kind of shocked that they couldn’t see how beautiful things could be in this world in a way. And so when I started my psychology studies, I was always more interested in the transformative changes instead of symptom management, uh, which is also important.
Ivar Goksøyr : I was always looking for the more depth oriented work. Did my specialization in, uh, in terms of short term psychodynamic therapy. Basically psychoanalytic theory, but with a more humanistic core and a more active approach. And I was very pleased, you know, to be able, uh, with more experience, more training, more self-healing, to reach more people, more deeply.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I got this confirmation that, yeah, this deep transformative healing is possible. However, I also experienced how extremely difficult it can be to release this inherent potential. So, [00:06:00] and the, the more I could help some people deeply, the more it hurt to not be able still to help the majority of my patients that deeply to see the potential and feel helpless.
Ivar Goksøyr : So searching for new strategies and then, you know, a couple of patients told me about psychedelic experiences and then somebody close to me, um, uh, came forth and that’s when I started to really dig in and open up. And, and then when you see all the literature and, and this whole tradition and wisdom tradition that is buried underneath all the stigma, then I really knew that we were onto something important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s how it started.
Joe Moore: Yeah. That’s amazing. And, um, I, I assume, and I don’t want to, well actually tell, tell me this, I, from what I understand, the um. The culture in Scandinavian nations is a little bit conservative around drugs generally in a lot of countries, like UK for instance, MDMA was everywhere, United States, it was very common.
Joe Moore: Um, [00:07:00] but is it, was that somewhat similar, uh, for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, for sure there’s always been an underground scene under rave scene. Uh, but yes, I mean, it’s quite different from like Colorado where you’re at, for example. So I think I, I, I am not sure, but I think that maybe the, the rate of people that has tried MDMA now is around 5% or something.
Ivar Goksøyr : I believe it’s around 20 in the us So, so there’s a big difference in the baseline levels and their attitudes, uh, for sure. Uh, but you know, this, the medicalization track that we’re on here in Norway has really helped, uh, to change public perception these last few 10 years. Um, since I started getting involved.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, yeah, it’s definitely opening up and, you know, more and more, you know, other others and, and, uh, psychologists and even, not yet any doctors, but people come out of the psychedelic closet and speaks openly. So, and that’s kind quite new, I would say. Um, it’s just a handful [00:08:00] of people have done it, but it, it’s quite impactful still, so, yeah.
Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. That’s, that’s important to know. 5% to 20%. Um, it’s really a big, big shift. So in terms of, um, like were there any kind of organizations where you were paying, paying attention to, were you paying attention to maps in the early days as that was coming along and was that kinda influential for you?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, yeah, sure. As, uh, as soon as I started ReadUP, uh, of course maps is, is what, what’s what stands out in the MDMA therapy field. So they’ve been incredibly important and they were also our collaborators, uh, on our first trial, uh, and made it also, then we gained experience that we could create our own investigator trial here.
Ivar Goksøyr : So they’ve been really important to us, for sure.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And, um, have you received any kind of pushback in your interest in [00:09:00] developing, um, MDMA assisted psychotherapy and also, you know, for therapist to improve therapists?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, you know, I mean there’s, uh, there’s been a lot of pushback. I mean, when, back in 2017, my first, uh, psychedelic conference in Oakland, and when I started speaking publicly here in Norway, I mean, my friends took me aside and asked me if I knew what I was doing, like this career suicide, uh, thoughts and, and of course I think, uh, yeah, most people had a very, you know, stigmatizing view on, on what we were up to.
Ivar Goksøyr : But I think also there is a certain, you know, a an intellectual, uh, honesty and openness. Uh, so if you can show some numbers and you can show that you’re serious and you, you know, your intention is right and you, it comes from the right place, and that you’re not an activist, uh, pushing things, uh, because you have your [00:10:00] own agenda and preferences, but that you’re actually, um, looking into exploring this in a, in a very vigorous way, then that gains respect for sure.
Ivar Goksøyr : And I think, uh, we’ve, you know, we’ve been able to gain that respect, uh, as, as, uh, you know, um, a serious, uh, we’re, we’re in a serious endeavor here. And when this idea of the, um, pathogen assisted therapy therapies development has been launched, there has really not been that much pushback, uh, I must say. Uh, however, we, we, the first university program in psychedelic, uh, therapy, uh, was, uh, just launched and the plan was to have ketamine as a self experience.
Ivar Goksøyr : Part of that program, uh, that got shut down, uh, of legal reasons, uh, by the health authorities, uh, since there was no legal way to actually do that. So that will probably be a, a longer process to, to gain the necessary, uh, knowledge to understand that this might be a fruitful thing to do. So, but within [00:11:00] clinical studies, it is, uh, totally legitimate.
Joe Moore: That’s interesting. And yeah, there’s probably all sorts of permission. We have a similar structure and issue here in the United States with experience with ketamine. Uh, physicians will prescribe for things like adjustment disorder or, you know, a lot of people legitimately have depression, so for their experiential component on their training, um, they can do things like that uhhuh, but I see how like integrating that with the university would be really hard and you’d need special permission.
Joe Moore: So
Ivar Goksøyr : do you need the diagnosis to be able to get the Ketamine as part of the training?
Joe Moore: Yeah, Uhhuh generally so, but there’s usually a doctor on staff that kind of understands that most people have conditions that would benefit from it. At least one or two doses. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we’re actually addressing clinical benefit, not experience, which is interesting ’cause I like, I do like the idea of giving somebody the experience of the drug despite clinical situation, their clinical status.
Joe Moore: So it’s [00:12:00] complicated though. Regulators are gonna have, you know, I guess their job is to be very conservative.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I mean, first of all, do no harm and, uh, you know, it’s possible, totally possible to respect that and, and to follow the laws that society has laid down and, and, and all that. So I really think just takes time to build up the consensus, uh, in, in the, in the field of psychiatry.
Ivar Goksøyr : And when that is reached, then we can approach the politicians and health bureaucrats and, and make, uh, um, you know, new laws.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. New allowances, licenses, permits. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that’ll be cool, and I’m glad you’re working on that. Um. So let’s dig into this training. This training comes up in about a month.
Joe Moore: What, um, what made you want to develop this program?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so, um, you know, as, uh, therapists, uh, we don’t get to see a lot of the, that other therapists do. I mean, if you’re [00:13:00] co-therapist, yes, but individually you don’t get to see much. And, you know, throughout training, um, there is little also focus on personal development.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s really, uh, under underweight in, uh, professional, uh, development programs. And this is quite serious because what the psychotherapy research is showing now is that, you know, the, the person as a therapist is much more important for patient process and outcome than what method is being applied. So now, instead of studying which method is most effective, because all seem to be more or less equally effective with nuances.
Ivar Goksøyr : Then, uh, we look into what are the relationship qualities that, uh, that could be called evidence-based. So research is showing therapies as a person is really important, but training, uh, as a general rule and estimates, uh, uh, uh, personal growth. And so I, I just saw when I, what happened for me was that I, I [00:14:00] discovered in that MD MA therapy, you know, I went to the route basically of my, of my interpersonal adversities leading me to become a psychology psychologist in the first place.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, you know, I, instead of as a kid, I, I hid, uh, you know, behind this role as a helper and I, nobody kind of tuned into me where I were at. So I developed the ability to find people where they were. And that was also, uh, you know, an epiphany to understand that this was also, you know, out of compassion.
Ivar Goksøyr : But also, you know, because, uh, I needed contact, so a way to avoid being alone. So that’s when I realized, oh, how deeply dependent I was upon my own patience, you know, that I, basically, it was part of my own needs for contact and, uh, you know, and, and also how dependent I was upon a certain progress in their therapy.
Ivar Goksøyr : Like how much [00:15:00] responsibility I felt and, uh, how much I took on. And I, I had this soreness in my, uh, solar plexus, um, more or less, uh, like in most therapy sessions. So when my day at the office was over, I, I really felt a certain level of exhaustion and, and I had this soreness and, you know, uh. Basically overworking.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and the more insecure I was, the more control I did, the more I did, you know? And, and then, uh, the MDMA showed me the little kid, you know, classic inner child work into the boy underneath this role as a helper. And all the fear that I had built in my body, uh, came out, you know, in shivering and neuro neurogenic shivering and stuff.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, and all the pain underneath that, uh, like body armor came. And, um, and there was a lot of linking and understanding. And, and when I got back into my therapy chair, I was surprised really to notice that there [00:16:00] were no anxiety reactions in my body anymore. So, you know, those old feelings of pain and fear, they had been triggered on a daily basis in therapy sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : I didn’t know that. I wasn’t aware it was unconscious. I had just felt this unease, you know, and I had noticed that I was a bit stressed out and I, I had been working really hard, so. When I had this ability to sit unfunded, uh, I wasn’t afraid anymore, uh, because I, I had, you know, released a lot of the feelings that had created this anxiety.
Ivar Goksøyr : I had also experienced this deep inner healing forces, the inner healing intelligence or self-organized with, or, or whatever you would like to call it. So, uh, I could trust that force in the patient much more. Uh, and I could, uh, you know, take much less responsibility. And I was much less driven by my own anxiety and my own need to regulate my own feelings and needs and sessions.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, [00:17:00] and what happened then, of course, is that the patient led the process better and I was much more receptive. So when my body was more relaxed, I could work much more intuitively and, and take in and react much more adequately. And I’m, I am. Pretty sure I can only compare like from before and after and, you know, no systematic observations, but, uh, I know a hundred percent sure that my wellbeing went up a lot.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and I enjoyed my work much more. And I’m sure also that at least, uh, substantial proportion of my patients, I mean, I was effective with some patients before as well, but a substantial proportion of my patients also are doing better, um, in therapy. So, so it felt really important to see this, you know, this potential and yeah, uh, I saw it as a really good way to, to, um, you know, to heal the healers.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, as Marina Sabina said, you are the medicine. Uh, and so [00:18:00] if we can heal the, you know, the therapist, then we can really reach a lot of people, uh, more deeply. So, yeah. So a good way to spread more healing to, to many people.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I think a funny and interesting analogy is the holotropic breathwork training model where you have to actually do a lot of your own work before you’re approved to do the sessions.
Joe Moore: And that, you know, there’s, I guess in the old psychoanalysis frame, multiple years of psychoanalysis before you could do it, so. Mm-hmm. You know, not that they necessarily got a lot of training, they got a lot of insight, um, you know, um, yeah,
Ivar Goksøyr : sure.
Joe Moore: So, yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Go ahead. I really thi uh, yeah, I really think it’s, you know, the, the methods that goes more deeply into the unconscious layers of the psyche.
Ivar Goksøyr : There, there’s always been, uh, a demand that the practitioner has his own, you know, a meditation teacher has his, his own meditation practice. Of course, the psychoanalyst have, has [00:19:00] had his own psychoanalysis, of course. So that need might be, uh, lesser with more symptom oriented, uh, methods. But, you know, psychedelics, they go deep and, uh, yeah, I mean, most people would, even though there are no hard, really good evidence like.
Ivar Goksøyr : Through randomized controlled data supporting that claim. I think, uh, most clinicians would, would agree that therapist self-awareness is incredibly important. And also to have felt how these different methods and, and techniques and attitudes, uh, are experienced, uh, from the inside. Um, so the is quite clear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, of course there are some pitfalls as well. You can, if you have like one strong, for example, psychedelic self-experience, and then you can, you know, over generalize from your own experience and accept other people to have similar experiences. Why? The truth is that they are very different. And I mean, I think also something that I [00:20:00] see sometimes in, in psychedelic, you know, in the psychedelic sphere is that people might have really strong healing experiences and they’re true, uh, uh, but it cannot sometimes lead people to think that they’re more healed than they are in, in reality that there are so many layers.
Ivar Goksøyr : But it can kind of, some, some people can have a certain narcissistic response maybe, or now I gained so much power and I have so, so much, uh, depth knowledge of myself in the psyche, so now I can go out. So, uh, some, there are some pitfalls, but, uh, you know, I, I cause also an, an article, a model curriculum for psychedelic, uh, training.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, it is a strong recommendation, uh, not a mandatory, um, thing, but to have self experience as part of training programs. Uh, so the consensus is pretty clear.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, um, yeah, the consensus is so clear and it’s just so [00:21:00] frustrating that we have to still kind of like figure out how to convince regulatory groups.
Joe Moore: Um, I think, um, can you talk about what kind of data they’ve liked to see? What kind of data was helpful? To present to regulators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Well, so we, we haven’t, uh, we haven’t done that yet. Uh, uh, I, I. Well, I, I, and if I should, you know, make a guess, uh, you know, anything that can actually, uh, provide a link, uh, at least to a proxy that, you know, you, you do something here.
Ivar Goksøyr : You give yourself experience, and then you can see that it actually helps the patients. And that’s, that’s, I think that’s a bridge that is really hard to make because there are so many variables in play. And then, as I said, also from my own experience, uh, I, you know, it’s reasonable to think that, say if you have countertransference issues, uh, some, some people, and I had like some chronic counter [00:22:00] transference issues that came up independently of who the patient was.
Ivar Goksøyr : And that’s true for many of us. But some of us also have, you know, we’re very effective with, with, uh, many patients. But then there are these few that triggers us in ways that we still are not able to, to really, uh, grasp or handle in a, in a therapeutic way. And for, for this. Particular patients, uh, it, it’ll be important.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and it’s very difficult and it’s very, uh, you know, costly to, to kind of prove those links. However, I, I do have a certain hope that, you know, combining MDMA with other therapist development, uh, methods and start to explore and start to, you know, find, you know, look at a lot of subgroup analysis and looking at moderating variables, and maybe we can, in the future at some point, see that for, for these therapists, this intervention, MDMA, enhanced [00:23:00] therapies development is actually helpful for the outcomes of, of, of this subset of patients.
Ivar Goksøyr : I think that that can be, uh, reasonable, but it’ll be a, a way, and I I also think, you know, if there is consensus in, in a, in a field, in a, in a, in the medical field that this, we believe this is important and there are a lot of. You know, a good argument can be made. I think that should be sufficient as well.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Right. It is a pretty safe drug. It’s really, well, you know, regarded in terms of clinical effects, so that that plus the consensus, like let’s just hope. We can, you know, put together the data we need to make this happen. I, I’m really, really excited. Um, so how many times have you taught your training so far?
Ivar Goksøyr : So, I, I, maybe it’s five times now. So I’ve had like, uh, around 270 people through, um, and it’s been quite well, uh, uh, [00:24:00] received. Uh, people are talking about how they embark on a self-reflective journey and that they can really, uh, you know, have a lot of recognition in, in what they see. And the, you know, it’s something with watching these unfiltered, uh, scenes with these really deep emotions as A-M-D-M-A or a psychedelic therapist, you know, that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also other emotion, experiential focused therapies that, you know, the, when these unfiltered emotions come out, it really touches our own strings and puts them in motion as well. Uh, so it can really be, um, you know, some, some therapy as well in there. Uh, uh, if you let it, if you want it, and if not, uh, it’ll still be, uh, interesting to, you know, look into, you know, how this, uh, actually can look in real life.
Ivar Goksøyr : And also to look at some quite experienced therapists, uh, working with me.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. That’s great. Can you share a little bit about some of your [00:25:00] collaborators?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. So, you know, I’m, I’m the founder of Psychologic, which is a mental health clinic here in Oslo. We are 30, uh, affiliated psychologists, and we have this, uh, cooperation with, uh, uh, the academy clinic here, the leading KE clinic, axon Clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so we’re implementing Ketamine now. So the Axon Clinic is really important for that clinical work we do. And then we also have the hospital, uh, in Ville, uh, which is a county in Norway. Uh, that’s where the psychedelic research team is. So they will be a collaborator on this study. Uh, hopefully it’s not like formally anchored yet.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then you have the University of Oslo where the Institute of Psychology, uh, still not, uh, anything signed or formally anchored, but we’ve had a series of meeting and, uh, the, the right people there wanted to happen. So, um, we just need, uh, of course we need to finalize the grant proposals and project descriptions and, uh, and get the funding.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and then, then, you know, we’ll hopefully let, uh, hopefully gonna let it fly. [00:26:00]
Joe Moore: Hmm. This is really interesting. Yeah. Um, so having that kind of network and affiliation broadly, it, it seems like really prestigious groups and I, I just love that it’s kind of, you know, coming together as if it will be a real project and, and hopefully get real funding and move it all forward.
Joe Moore: So thanks for your efforts there. Um, yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the science funding ecosystem a little friendlier? So like, I think I only know of a few psychedelic programs in the United States that have received federal funding. Um, yeah. Like would, would science funding, um, for you come from at the national level, or would it be like bigger institutions?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so we, we broke through a glass roof there a few years ago, getting the first governmental grant for the MDMA depression study. And then, uh, we got, uh, quite a big grant, uh, from the health authorities again for ketamine study. [00:27:00] Uh, so, uh, yeah, we have had two, uh, two major wins there. And then we’ve also had money from Nors Nors Skin Mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s a Swedish foundation for a second md, a depression study in young adults. And that’s also where I, I’m, we’re seeking our primary funds for this, uh, pathogen assisted therapist training in addition to my s founding some, uh, or funding, some of it, uh, half of my PhD money, uh, can be funded from my clinic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then, uh, there’s a research council in Norway that I will apply for. For rest of the PhD funding. And then this, uh, training is also helping to, to fund further protocol development and, and get it going.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, yeah. Amazing. So are people back to your training now? Are people from around the world taking your training or is it purely Scandinavian folks?
Joe Moore: Yes,
Ivar Goksøyr : yes. So we’ve had, you know, [00:28:00] Australians, Indian people, we had people from South America, you know, South Africa, uh, all across, uh, states and Canada and Europe. So, and we always start with, uh, greeting each other, hello in our mother tongue. So that’s a cacophony of people from around the world. So it’s really a, a nice international, uh, flavor to it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so I’m very pleased to, to be able to, uh, to bring, to bring that to the world and to bring people together. It’s also inspiring to see how many people, uh, are passionate about this. We also have, you know, plenty of time to have interactions and ask questions. Um, so that’s also, uh, uh, good to have some of that.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, yeah,
Joe Moore: outstanding and, um. Can you talk about a little bit about what, what it’s like to actually show your own videos? Like that has to be a little emotional. Yeah. Kind of a big deal, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. I [00:29:00] mean, you know, the first time I, I looked into the tapes and they’re quite, you know, they’re, you know, what they say about MBMA, uh, therapy’s, it’s not a no no gay, no pain situation.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, know a lot of the times, and we see it in the MDMA depression trial as well, people have this really affirmative positive experiences reconnecting with love and clarity and, you know, have to have some people have positive feelings in their body for the first time in years, you know, and so some of those clips are really, you know, filled with humor and affirmations and really celebration of life.
Ivar Goksøyr : But then you also, you know, the, the higher you can go the, the deeper you tend to be able to go and vice versa. And, and there are really some really painful. Expressions. There’s, they’re also, so before I showed it, the first time I, I showed it to my wife and I was really curious, what am I doing? And this is this weird.
Ivar Goksøyr : Am I just, you know, being pathetic. Well, even though I knew this is, this is honest, it’s raw, [00:30:00] it’s me. And, and it was important. And it, and it, I think it will be important for a lot of people to be able to watch it because I think it normalizes, you know, it’s not only MDMAs, it’s a therapy or psychedelic therapy that is stigmatized.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, the healer’s own wounding is also somewhat stigmatized. Uh, you know, uh, it’s not that easy. I mean, it’s getting better. I mean, culture might, might differ, but. To really talk openly about the wounding. And it’s, it can be a lot of pride also in US therapists, you know, going into this role. And even though we sometimes may feel like hypocrites, we don’t want other people to, to see that we are very, you know, very human.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, um, as I say in NS is a therapist’s about, you know, getting the patient in touch with their inner healer. And if we also, through this training and other, of course, uh, things can, the therapist can get in touch with their inner patient, uh, and heal that, I think, I think then, then you will be able to go even further.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, [00:31:00] uh, but as my wife watched, uh, those, some of those first, most emotional clips and, and I saw how touched she she was and how, how, you know, how, uh, how much compassion she, uh, that was elicited in her than I, I got that necessary, you know, confidence to, to, to show it also to broader audience. But yeah, I must admit that I was quite.
Ivar Goksøyr : I, I was clear that I, I will need you guys to, to give some feedback after this. And I mean, these, it’s like five or six years, uh, since I had these sessions. So it’s very well integrated. Um, that’s also important. So, uh, you know, so I say that I have no need for you to kind of protect me or anything, but, uh, this silence afterwards is, uh, is not something so please, and, and of course, just, you know, uh, as, as in psychedelic therapy and as a therapist to just pay close attention to your own [00:32:00] reactions when you watch these clips.
Ivar Goksøyr : One thing is the technical aspects and, and that meta perspective. And another thing is just tuning into what is going on on the, on the deeper levels in the patient and in you. How the patient is a mirror on processes inside of you. And that’s something that we focus a lot of in the, in the course and it tends to, tends to be quite helpful.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. So, uh, but it has, it has been really gratifying, I must say, because universally, uh, you know, uh, the ra the ratings has been 4.84 stars, uh, from 270 reviews out of five stars studies. So. I also do a lot of lecturing, uh, in other contexts than this course in, in universities and, and psychedelic therapy programs.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and in these teachings I tend to show a, a few more, more short, shorter clips. And, and yeah, I think also there is a, a need and a, and a also a certain kind of hunger for being able to actually look at authentic [00:33:00] clinical footage, uh, in training.
Joe Moore: Right? I think, um, a huge portion of the maps, MDMA training is kind of, you know, pausing and playing and pausing and discussing and, and things like that.
Joe Moore: And I think that’s really helpful. Um, especially given we just can’t do it. Um, so mm-hmm. You know? Absolutely. I think even if we could do it, the video analysis and commentary would be really helpful. Um, yep. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good way to learn. I hope in time we can do that with a lot more psychedelics too.
Joe Moore: Um mm-hmm. There’s very serious differences in how somebody would show up under DMT and Iboga and whatever else, right?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. No, I, I think that’s key, uh, to, to, to, to build up the video libraries in training, for training purposes is certain, certainly something that I would aim for.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: Um, so could we [00:34:00] spend a little bit of time talking about inner healer stuff? Um, this is a, it’s a complicated topic, at least in America. I don’t know if it’s complicated elsewhere, but I, you know, we, we in our world, frame it as the body knows how to heal. Most of the time we have to set the container properly so that it can, um, and I don’t know how that’s like, um.
Joe Moore: So you’ve, you’ve probably heard the, um, accusations, right? This is cult thinking that there’s some inner healer out there. How do you like to think about it or how do you like to talk about it?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so, uh, yeah, I’m aware of the critic, you know, and the critics of this being more, having like a concept rooted in spiritual thinking and that it can also lead into this kind of exceptional thinking around psychedelics that somehow psychedelics show you the truth and somehow everything that comes up on psychedelics is inherently benign or [00:35:00] correct, or, and, and the only thing you need to do is you trust it and then ev and it, everything will turn out for the best.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um. And, uh, uh, I, and so I think it’s, uh, it’s an important concept that makes a lot of clinical sense and it has a lot of different names. Uh, but it needs to be seen as, uh, um, a metaphor, not like, uh, uh, you know, it’s not a separate entity or intelligence, but, uh, it is part of our nature and I think it makes a lot of sense to think of us as, uh, you know, we are nature, we are, uh, organic creatures, and the body for sure knows how to heal in many ways.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but sometimes it’s not able to heal itself either. And sometimes it can start attacking, uh, itself. And the psychic can also, you know, uh, attack itself. Uh, and, um. So I think it’s, it’s for sure an really important Ali, and it’s not a new concept. I mean, Carl Rogers, uh, [00:36:00] the principle of self-organizing wisdom, the, the, the therapist only needs to set this certain, you know, the congruence and the positive regard and empathy, the facilitative, uh, psychological factors for the patient’s self-organizing wisdom to take the lead and, and to lead to self transformation.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, so it’s really a humanistic and, and beautiful concept, but it needs to be seen as a metaphor. And it’s also important to. You know, to acknowledge that these, uh, substances that, uh, has this great advantage of opening up the psyche, uh, in a faster, deeper way than many other methods, although you can open it as deeply with other methods and so forth.
Ivar Goksøyr : But this, this advantage is also the challenge with a method like the talent is also what can become problematic And, um, uh, and yeah, so, so, um. Uh, [00:37:00] I mean, you know, the, in psychodynamic therapy also, we have this, uh, concept of the Unconscious Therapeutic Alliance, which basically is the same. It is, uh, this part of the patient that has this unconscious will to health in, in the psychoanalytic, uh, thinker auto ranks terms.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, and, uh, and the, or in Donald Winnekot’s terms, the, the, the, the true self that tries to express itself. Um, so, um, so, uh, in, in, in the traditional training on, in, before we also have this, the main thing you do is to show the patient that there’s, there is this sound part of you, this Healing forces tries to come through, and then there is this fear.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of becoming authentic and to letting this true. And then you have the resistances against it. And then the whole thing is about tilting this inner, uh, power balance between the, the forces that want to express and the forces that wants to, uh, suppress in favor of the expressive forces. [00:38:00] Um, so it’s really a, a way of thinking that I, that I, that I’m well aware of and, and trained in from beforehand and it fits really well.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, but yeah, um, to just say that, I mean, it is a bit complicated because in a way it is, it has a lot of truth in it. If you’re able to trust that whatever is coming up is something that you can handle, then this trusting and this. You know, my frame of mind is, is, is actually creating, uh, that reality, at least to a certain extent, but we must be, uh, mindful that this is not possible, uh, for many of us.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, and that, um, the risk of, you know, some kind of patient blaming, if you’re not able to, you know, heal from this, then it’s, uh, in a way your own fault or something like that is, but I, I must say I’ve never seen that as a problem in, you know, in the [00:39:00] therapies teams that we have here in Norway and throughout the training and the way MAPS has trained us.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, there is a lot of focus on that, uh, concept, but it, it’s not trained as some, you know, uh, I don’t know. In, I, I think it’s trained, trained in a quite wholesome way. That’s, that would be my perspective on it.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We do need to be really careful about how we talk about it and, um, I think it’s just such Yeah.
Joe Moore: An amazing thing. This is the first time in many years somebody brought up auto rank, so thank you for that. Oh,
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, yeah. You know it, yeah.
Joe Moore: Major influence on Stan Groff and, uh, transpersonal psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Um, breath work as well. Yeah. I, I love that term of phrase, uh, the will to health. I think that’s great.
Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Um, yeah, and I’m, I’m with you. It’s just I see it in nature. Rabbits [00:40:00] will shake, dogs will shake sometimes to change state. We don’t really have that, you know, we could. Yeah. Um, but it’s, you know, I mean, kids
Ivar Goksøyr : in, in bomb rooms, kids are shaking, but the adults has learned to, uh, suppress it as part of their culture conditioning.
Joe Moore: Mm. Right. Yeah. So there’s just so much there. And, um, I think, say would, would you agree that psychology is just kind of like, generally speaking, institutional psychology is kind of like missing a number of core ideas that we kind of discussed in the past, but we haven’t figured out how to integrate those things?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh. You know, there are a lot of different groups, uh, also in kind of the established psychology, at least here in Scandinavia. And they’re really onto a lot of these things. Uh, some coming from humanistic psychology and emotional focus therapies. And I mean, there’s [00:41:00] also, so I would say there’s, in
Ivar Goksøyr : the,
Ivar Goksøyr : the, the cartoon variant of mental health care is of course very little developed, but at least here in Scandinavia, I think there’s a lot of good stuff coming up.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I, even though there are some differences, and you say, I mean, in the maps manual, it’s, you know, one of the, uh, the sayings there is, can, can what is coming up be worked as, as, um, uh, po possibly part of the healing process instead of being pathologized, for example. And I, I do think that in, in many acute words, that would be a good thing to integrate more.
Ivar Goksøyr : Of course. And also I, I believe that like, say. Uh, this, this the psychotherapeutic culture where you, you, you, you suppose that there is a problem and then you dig to find the problem and, and solve the problem. Then you, you, you run the risk of creating, uh, the problem in by this way of thinking. So to assume that, and this is also a good exercise [00:42:00] for life, to assume that nothing is actually wrong, you know, that this is, this is all happening for perfect, uh, reasons.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, you know, in this society we tend to individualize, uh, too much, you know, both our pride and our shame and, and you know, we’re quite, you know. We, we miss the big picture that, you know, we are part of a really, uh, big picture here, a big web of things. And our free will is probably much more, you know, constrained than we like to think, at least when we remain unconscious.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, you know, we are nature and patterns in nature expressing, and if I had had your genetic, you know, uh, uh, genetics and your, uh, learning history, I would’ve taken the exact same choices as you do in your life. And the same is true vice versa. So I really think it’s important to stop individualized and personalize and, and put so much blame [00:43:00] and guilt and, um, I mean, responsibility is important.
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s important to, to wake up and to try to be conscious. And, but at the same time, you know, could your life up until now have, uh, unfolded in any other way than it did? If not, uh, is there anything to blame? And then we tend to compare ourselves, you know, to, to others. And then that’s just nonsense. Mm-hmm.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, yeah. Yeah. Maybe deviating a little bit from your original question, but, so yes. I don’t want to, to, I wanna paint a, a too, you know, black or white picture of what is established. There’s a lot of good things going on, but for sure a lot of room for improvement in, in the way we think about things. And, uh, I do think psychedelic can be a, a positive, bring some positives there.
Ivar Goksøyr : And not to say the least to. Integrate, MDMA asso therapy in, in mental healthcare, but also in in somatic [00:44:00] medicine. Uh, for, for some, uh, disorders, I think will really enhance our understanding of how much unconscious emotional wounds are really, uh, at the core of so much of our symptoms and problems and diagnosis, both mentally and, and somatically.
Ivar Goksøyr : And, uh, so I really have big hopes, uh, for that. And, and I mean, back to the inner healing intelligence, I mean, uh, patients, they really, it makes sense for patients because that’s, this is what they experience my, I mean, some people say it’s people that haven’t taken the drug will not understand. You can read yourself like an open book that they really feel, wow, where did that come, come from?
Ivar Goksøyr : It’s so fascinating that you know, all this, all this inside you, this inner wisdom, this intuitive knowing. Uh, so, so to, to give that I think and also as therapists to, to. Be engaged and to be equipped to do that deep transformative work that most of us wants to do [00:45:00] and to, to see how much this inner intuitive wisdom is, is triggered when.
Ivar Goksøyr : A drug and a context is really putting inside you a lot of trust, uh, and, and compassion. And so when you have trust and compassion you, that that’s what we needed to enter truth that is normally painful. And you know, when you’re trustful, you’re not afraid. So when you’re not afraid, you don’t need to defend and you don’t need to defend, then you have access, uh, to your body and to the contents of your mind.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, so, so that’s really, it’s empowering for the patients, but it’s also very empowering for therapists and, and to be able to step outta that expert role and, and to really learn from the individual cases and from this rapport of wisdom within each patient is really, really precious. And I, I think it will advance the field and the collective, uh, level of consciousness in mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, [00:46:00] for sure. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t mean to like put psychology in, in the psychiatric field in a bad light. It’s, it’s a problem to continue working on, um, if the paradigm stops yielding good results. Maybe we need to broaden the paradigm a little bit. Um, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for instance, like these psychedelic drugs are potentially some of the best drugs we’re adding to psychiatry since Prozac and Prozac.
Joe Moore: Wasn’t that amazing? It was. Okay. Yeah. But it wasn’t amazing. Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah. Absolutely.
Joe Moore: No,
Ivar Goksøyr : I,
Joe Moore: I totally agree. Yeah. And you know, I, I think, um, it’s okay to critique our fields too. I know we’re fighting really hard to make our fields. Um. Defensible and seem respected and whatever, but like, we also, part of that dynamic, for me at least, is like [00:47:00] confronting, like where are we having limitations?
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. And I think, uh, I mean the, the, the, the numbers are clear. Like there’s so many people that we’re not able to reach in mental health care now, so it’s perfectly legitimate to critique it. I just sometimes feel that, you know, to stay out of idealization and devaluation can be really important because devaluation of others, uh, just triggers and idealization of what you’re doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : It, it, it kind of invites devaluation and devaluating others is not something that makes people interested in what you have to, to offer. So to, to have a nuance approach on that. But for sure, I mean, there’s so many people we are not able to help. And, and why is that? And you knows. And we’re talking about, yeah, we know we need more money and more time with each patient, and that’s true.
Ivar Goksøyr : And we need more, you know, better implementation of what actually works already, evidence-based treatments, and that’s so true. Um, but then I also think [00:48:00] that we, we are talking too, a little about the enormous complexity of the task at hand. So that that’s also an a, a good reason why we were not able to reach more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, anybody that has helped try to help a fellow human being that is stuck in deep self-hate or, you know, lack this early re relational imprints of being lovable or safe in those critical periods growing up, how hard that is to, to change, you know, there, there’s certainly no pill you can give anybody, and there’s no procedure.
Ivar Goksøyr : You can, you know, uh, elicit, even though no matter how much the health bureaucrats would like, that there’s no package you can give people. It’s, it’s really hard. And, uh, the mind is complex. And while in somatic medicines you have all these tools, you know, you have, you can take pictures and take tests to know more about the ethology underneath, you know, the root causes of the symptoms on there.
Ivar Goksøyr : On the surface. Uh, and you can also have this robotic [00:49:00] arms that can do these tiny precise procedures behind all these layers of protective tissue. But in mental health, we, we lack these, um, ways to, to get this deeper picture and, and, and do these incisions deep inside with, with very much position. And I, I do think that psychedelics are technologies for mental health that will really, uh, advance, uh, or give us the possibility to, to advance our knowledge and to, to help so many more people.
Ivar Goksøyr : They don’t come without risks, and especially if not, you know, uh, applied within a, uh, a context as is knowledgeable about how the psyche works. Um, so, but with that, I, I really am hopeful. Right. I mean, you see, you, you can look at the, you know, what has happened with ketamine in the us It, it is, it’s not only pretty, I mean, I’m very happy for all the people that have been [00:50:00] helped by ketamine in the us but the way it’s prescribed and, you know, uh, with, without any context and container and, you know, I, I kind of fear I have some worries that similar things will, will be happening to, to other psychedelic drugs.
Ivar Goksøyr : So that’s something to be aware of for sure.
Joe Moore: And I, the way I frame that, Ivar is like, it’s part of us learning. Like we have to make mistakes before we can learn. Yeah. And what is the optimal container and mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and cost is obviously a big thing, right? So, and I, I kind of know what you’re talking about.
Joe Moore: Some people are talking about at-home, MDMA and, um, not long after at-home, ketamine has had, you know. I, I can’t say bad results yet, but there has been abuse for sure, and there has been sloppy prescription for sure, and people have been hurt. But you know, in medicine people will get hurt. Um, so we have to kind of like, you know, is the standard of care be would’ve been [00:51:00] better for them.
Joe Moore: And that’s a whole thing that we have to work out and science will help us understand it, I hope.
Ivar Goksøyr : Absolutely. I, I like that, that we’re still learning.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Like the idea that we’ve figured everything out just doesn’t work for me. Um, we’re too early. Science is still pretty young like. Double blind. Our cities are very young.
Ivar Goksøyr : I mean, yeah, 1962 or something, that it became the gold standard and, and yeah, psychologists, it’s, it is a very young discipline. And, and that’s what all those that we’re not able to reach, uh, those that our hearts still bleed for, they are, they are reminding us of that, that we are still a young discipline and that there are tons of things we still need to learn and, and psychedelics are, are learning enhancers, uh, done, uh, used in the, in the right way.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, uh, so we as a field can learn from that hopefully.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so very optimistically, say five years out [00:52:00] from now, what might you hope is a little bit different as a result of the training that you’re putting on, and it’s coming up in about a month.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, well, so, uh, well, I, I, I really hope, I mean, we have 280 people trained and, and then I’ve done all the marketing myself, and now I’m getting the help of you, this platform, other platforms.
Ivar Goksøyr : And so to really reach thousands of, of, uh, participants in, in the next few years that will, and that this course will inspire them. To do ever more deeply inner healing work on themselves and be able to recognize so much more of the processes in patients because they’re not stocking their own anxieties and defenses.
Ivar Goksøyr : And because they have, uh, uh, walk similar paths themselves and have this increased ability to pattern recognition and to really connect and understand what they’re going through. Um, and that even though if they’re not working with psychedelics or MDMA at all, just that, that’s not a prerequisite at all for taking this course.[00:53:00]
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, that’s also part of the feedback. You know, even though if you don’t have much interest to, it’s a really good way to, to, to get some, um, depth knowledge on therapist development, uh, in itself and healing processes in general. So, yeah. So. For, for therapists to do their work. And I do believe there’s a lot of truth that you can’t bring anyone longer than you have brought yourself.
Ivar Goksøyr : However, luckily the patient can bring him or herself longer than you have, but then it will be despite of a, not because of. So yeah, that’s a goal. And also that’s amazing, uh, that, uh, this, uh, and pathogenesis therapist development study will be helped by this course to be funded and to be, uh, to have pioneered a new, uh, frontier in psychotherapist method, independent development, and have inspired, uh, many more [00:54:00] research groups to continue that endeavor, to use this learning enhancer together with a range of, of, of methods to really, really heal and help the, the,
Joe Moore: the healers.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So here’s, here’s something we didn’t get a chance yet, and we chatted about this before. Um, we recorded. Um, was this idea of MDMA being, um, at times more optimal for certain populations than tryptamines, like psilocybin? Um, could you speak a little bit about that?
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, well, there’s a lot we don’t know yet, but my sense, uh, from my, uh, experience is that.
Ivar Goksøyr : Um, for integrating into mainstream psychiatry. I, I do believe that MDMA has a special potential because it is easier to work with. There will be less projective processes, there will be less dramatic, uh, traumas [00:55:00] coming up. It challenges our metaphysics to a lesser degree. Um, it requires some, I I, I wouldn’t say that it requires less competency at all, but it’s easier to combine with whatever you’re already doing.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, you know, MBMA just opens your heart and goes straight into your personal biography, and you can just, no matter what your method you’re trained in, NDMA will help you to see that these processes you’re, that you’re trying to elicit will just become deeper while classic psychedelics. Um, will be much more different, much more, uh, spiritual and much more symbolic.
Ivar Goksøyr : And it can be harder to, to integrate. Uh, and it can, uh, can, can may, it may be more messy and maybe more people will have more dramatic and difficult experiences and, and there will be a bigger chance for, for, for backlash. This being said, uh, classic psychedelics, this is not to speak down classic [00:56:00] psychedelics.
Ivar Goksøyr : They have been shown to be quite safe in a clinical setting. It is possible, uh, but we must remember that the clinical settings in the, in the research, you know, the research settings, they are really tight and, uh, the screening is really tight. So when we open up more, I think, uh, it, it, it requires more to get that right.
Ivar Goksøyr : The potential is huge and there are important, but it just requires more specialized knowledge, um, to, to handle. Uh, the fact that these, that those drugs, they don’t have any inherently anxiety regulating properties, making the takeoff and learnings more, more smooth, like MD Ma, uh, do have. So I think, uh, here in Norway we just implemented, we are in the process of implementing ketamine in the public mental health care.
Ivar Goksøyr : It was just approved. Um, and, um, and I think that’s a, a good place to start. And then [00:57:00] if MDMA follows, uh, and then, uh, classic psychics after that, I think that could be a good learning curve for the field to make this implementation as wise as possible for the betterment of well people. I, I really think, uh, psilocybin is exceptional.
Ivar Goksøyr : Uh, but, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll see.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Time, time will show. Um, yeah. And let’s be intellectually honest as long as we can about these things. And, um, yeah. Yeah. And
Ivar Goksøyr : yeah, it’s, I’m, I’m curious to know, you know, how it will, this is just my fantasies. I mean, and people have so many different views, so Yeah.
Ivar Goksøyr : I’m, I’m excited to see.
Joe Moore: Yeah. Amazing. Is there anything else that you’d like to mention before we work towards closing up? Maybe you can give the details of the training again.
Ivar Goksøyr : Yeah, so it’s coming up the 2nd of November and then the 9th of November. It’s two consecutive Sundays, [00:58:00] uh, three hours each online interactive, a lot of authentic clinical footage and, uh, you know, a little bit on the fundamentals and on the HandsOn aspects, but we don’t do use too much time on it, on it.
Ivar Goksøyr : And then we frame what we see, uh, within this concept of the wounded healer, and we do a scientific clinical and, uh, exploration of that archetype and, uh, encourage self-reflection and watching clips and, and processing what this, how this is, uh, for, for each of us. But the main thing is to, to really get to see a lot of end a assisted therapy in action framed within a container that, uh, uh, therapists, uh, tend to, uh, really be appreciative of.
Ivar Goksøyr : So, and, and I really enjoy doing that. And I, I, I will also say that I. You know, I, I don’t know. I’m not sure who the audience, uh, this live stream of podcast will be, but [00:59:00] I just think that, uh, each one of us that is somehow drawn to this field, we, we have this knowing that there is something important and yes, do not idealize.
Ivar Goksøyr : And there are all these limits and, and challenges in, in how to release the potential and avoid harm, but this inner knowing or feeling that we’re onto something important and that is really important to, um, to follow that, uh, inner knowing. And it’s really important that we mess it up as little as possible and that we really do our own work.
Ivar Goksøyr : That we educate ourselves in all the ways we possible can. Most of us also have this natural respect and maybe a little bit fearful for, you know, that I can certainly feel that every time I’m initiating someone, it’s hard to get an, a true informed consent, uh, but this certain trepid level of trepidation for entering these deeper realms.
Ivar Goksøyr : So I think we really need to be, uh, aware of the potential, but [01:00:00] also there’s responsibility and, and be really to believe in, I mean, to take seriously both this attraction we have towards the field. And I think each of us can have a special, unique contribution to the field. Uh, and also, uh, to take the, the responsibility that comes with engaging in this field.
Ivar Goksøyr : Seriously. So I, I hope to, to assist in, in those matters.
Joe Moore: Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us and sharing, and I hope people check out the program. Um, check out the blog we have coming up from var. There’s gonna be some good insight there as well. Um, and thank you so much. Let’s, um, conclude here and we’ll hang out backstage for a minute.
Ivar Goksøyr : Great. Yes.