All transcripts are generated by software. Please excuse any errors.

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Psychedelics today joined by Greg Shankin. How are you today, Greg?

Greg Shanken: Doing awesome. Great to be here.

Joe Moore: Yeah, happy to have you. Um, we get to hang out just last week, which was nice. Yeah. In Boulder. Yeah. Thanks for the help there. And, um, of course, glad to have you on to talk about your event and all the interesting stuff you’re up to.

Joe Moore: Um, so Collaborate is coming up just to get ahead of it and then we’ll kind of back into the rest of the podcast. Uh, collaborate is coming up real soon. What is Collaborate?

Greg Shanken: Collaborate is a, uh, multi-state and online event that we are doing with Pata. When I say we, I wear quite a few hats. So this hat is the Colorado Psychedelic Society.

Greg Shanken: We’re a nonprofit that promotes awareness, education, and community around. Responsible use of psychedelics. And so we teamed up with Pada, that’s the Psilocybin Assisted Therapy Association based in Portland on October [00:01:00] 4th, will be an online, uh, programming that’s more for facilitators and professionals in the field.

Greg Shanken: And then October 5th will be in person both in Portland and Boulder. And we’ll be doing some cool things to kind of tie the communities together and the events, uh, those two events together. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Awesome. That’s fantastic. Um, and I’m gonna drop a link in the comments here, folks. Um, if you want to help support the conference, check it out, and also help psychedelics today, higher frequency network slash pt.

Joe Moore: You can find out more, save a little bit of cash there and support psychedelics today. Cool. So Greg, you’ve been, um. Doing a lot of interesting things in this space for a while. Could you give us like, um, kind of a broad overview of the different things that you’re up to?

Greg Shanken: Yes, I’d be happy to do that. Thank you.

Greg Shanken: And so, [00:02:00] yeah, someone said to me last week, wow, it’s great how we wear all these different hats. And I said, do you have an extra hat rack laying around? And that person didn’t ’cause theirs was full too. So yeah, doing a lot of things, not, you know, nonprofit and, you know, for-profit to, you know, pay the bills.

Greg Shanken: So on the nonprofit side, as I mentioned, I’m the co-founder of the Colorado Psychedelic Society, um, which I co-founded after Prop 1 22 passed in November of, of 22. I was also an ambassador for Prop 1 22. So it was pretty amazing to, and an honor to really join that effort that summer. And then five months later have the bill pass.

Greg Shanken: And, you know, I kind of say tongue in cheek. Um, you know, people have been fighting for this since the sixties. Here I come along five months before. Yay, we won. Uh, so, you know, I played a, played a role there, small role in a huge team, getting out the vote efforts and fundraising and sharing my story. Uh, just really kind of embedding me with some of the leaders in the space.

Greg Shanken: [00:03:00] So it was really an amazing, amazing, uh, experience to be part of that. And so then we founded the, the Society. It’s a nonprofit, you know, volunteer effort. So we are, you know, of course, always looking for resources and collaborates will help us do that. So if you can attend, then that would be amazing to support our efforts there.

Greg Shanken: So I do that ongoing. Um, I also have owned a web development agency for 12 years called Gloss. And until my personal psychedelic transformation, which also started in 22, um, I wasn’t really feeling much passion about it. You know, if you asked me, Hey, what kind of businesses are you serving? I’d say, you know, like whoever comes along and that’s not really, um.

Greg Shanken: A good answer, but that’s the answer I have because I really wasn’t feeling passionate. And people say, find an industry you love and then serve it. And at the time I wasn’t feeling much passionate about anything. Uh, really I was, you know, kind of dealing with a lot of depression. And that’s kind of what led me to psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: Um, [00:04:00] and coming outta my first experience, which was Ayahuasca, January 22, was like, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know what I, I know where, where I’m headed now. And, uh, so with my agency, started bringing in clients in the space and really honored to work with some, um, really amazing businesses and brands. Anyone from solo practitioners up to Ketamine clinics and, um, attorneys that serve the space, um, retreats, uh, you know, just, just wonderful, uh, training programs.

Greg Shanken: Just wonderful clients. Um, and I’m feeling really passionate about serving the space. So that’s, that’s been a really big part of my transformation. And then along with that, I, I’ve observed along the way that, um, a lot of students are coming through these training programs and they kind of maybe think that people are gonna beat the door down to work with them and, you know, it doesn’t really work that way.

Greg Shanken: So they, they need additional training outside of the heal, you know, of course the all important [00:05:00] training to be becoming a good healer, but we work in a, you know, capitalistic framework and you need to. A client. So I do business, web and marketing trainings. And actually the very first one I did was, uh, in 2023 with, uh, for Vital.

Greg Shanken: And that’s actually been a big part of, um, like a milestone for me because I’ve done that now for a bunch of other training programs. Uh, so I, I do that. And then most recently, uh, launched a private psychedelic marketing network called Higher Frequency Network. And you just shared that link. Um, and what I observed in my travels is that we need, and I say we meaning in our space, need a better way to, um.

Greg Shanken: So grow our businesses, but outside of the reach of the global ad networks like Google and Meta. Mm-hmm. And this was something I’d been, yeah. And I, I can pause if, uh,

Joe Moore: uh, [00:06:00] yeah, just torture, it’s tortured to like, just not have any accountability and just how much effort we’ve all invested there. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: It’s crazy. Yeah. So thank you for putting in some effort here.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, and it’s kind of a wild, um, synchronicity because before I had my agency, I was, um, in the affiliate marketing and lead gen space for five years. And I actually, one of the bigger reasons I stopped doing that work was, it’s a very, it is a very impersonal and transactional space, which doesn’t make it bad, but for me, it wasn’t really feeling aligned.

Greg Shanken: You kind of join these networks and you kind of find something to sell and make some money with. I mean it like, that’s kind of the. Calculus involved. Like, can I sell it? Can I make money with it? And like the rest is whatever. And so that was no feeling aligned and I thought I left that world behind. I, I was, you know, I moved on to an agency and now serving the psychedelic space and about six, seven months ago it occurred to me, um, bunch of light [00:07:00] bulbs went on because when I was producing events or part of events, you know, we’d reach out to friends, colleagues, and everyone you reach out to is happy to help.

Greg Shanken: Sure. I’ll put this on my Instagram. Sure. I’ll tell, uh, my email list, you know, we we’re all willing to help ’cause we’re working towards a, a larger cause, which is a beautiful thing and so unique in this space. Um. With, with no, uh, you know, no expectation of a payment or return. Just, yeah, we’re here to help each other.

Greg Shanken: And it goes both ways. You know, friend calls me like, yeah, how can I help? Like that’s like, right, like, why we do this? Just spread healings, um, you know, spread mental health, uh, raise consciousness. And so we’re all willing to do that. And so let’s, how can we create an ecosystem around that that does a couple things.

Greg Shanken: One allows us to expand our reach, meaning we can meet people that maybe we otherwise might not have known. And my net, my network or my CEO map has gotten pretty big, but it’s not, [00:08:00] it’s not, uh, you know, absolute, I do not know everyone in this space. Um, and really nobody does, but it’s a small enough space that we’re kind of all like two degrees removed from everyone, right?

Greg Shanken: Um, and so I, I noticed that, and then as you know, Joe, this, uh, crazy social media purge started. About five months ago, um, and started hitting anyone from small nonprofits to large nonprofits, everyone in between. I believe that you were maybe ensnared in in some of that.

Joe Moore: Oh, absolutely. Still am.

Greg Shanken: Still am.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. And it, it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s not fun, right? No,

Joe Moore: no. Not fun. I mean, business is hard enough.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Right, right.

Joe Moore: Business under censorship is even harder. Turns out.

Greg Shanken: Yes. And, and you know, for those of you listening, um, basically, you know, meta being Instagram, Facebook started shutting down [00:09:00] accounts in this space.

Greg Shanken: You get an email saying your account’s been permanently deleted, and go f yourself. And so, um. I mean, that’s the implied, you know, go after yourself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they’re, they’re too polite to, to curse. They just say, you’re done. So they are polite. That’s, that’s nice. Uh, and I’ve had friends caught in this colleagues, and sometimes you get your accounts back, but then you have to, you know, have that anxiety of will it go away?

Greg Shanken: And then people say, well, wait, this is, these are just the algorithms, but guess what? Humans create algorithms. So whether it’s humans mm-hmm. Algorithms, the bottom line, it’s happening. So anyway, yeah. Long, a little bit long-winded wave, but also important context of how I launched higher frequency. So, um, again, wild synchronicity and affiliate marketing ecosystem.

Greg Shanken: We need this in our space. Accounts are getting shut down. And so that birth higher frequency, which in business terms is known as an affiliate marketing [00:10:00] network. A lot of folks don’t know necessarily what that means if you ever work in the space. But an affiliate relationship is a business, wants to sell something, an affiliate sells something on behalf of that business and earns a commission for doing so.

Greg Shanken: That’s it. So higher frequency is that for the psychedelic space. However, what makes it unique is a, it’s not going to be anonymous community. We will be inherent in the platform. So instead of Joe being, you know, affiliate, 1, 2, 9, 7, 6, you know, it’s, it’s Joe Moore, it’s Greg Shankin. Um, we’re all going to meet and know each other.

Greg Shanken: Um, so we can understand. The offers and promotions that we’re doing and then help each other gain exposure. And it’s all managed within the network. Payments are managed, ability to browse offers, you know, it’s all within higher frequency. And so the, the buzz so far has been pretty remarkable, um, because of, you know, the, the pains and challenges of working in this space period.

Greg Shanken: And [00:11:00] then, hmm, our account’s getting shut down, just like you pointed out. Like it’s hard enough man. Like, so that is what higher frequency is and pretty, pretty stoked about it.

Joe Moore: That’s great. So we kind of fit a lot in to that. So I wanna kind of like rewind the tape. Were, were psychedelics really ever part of your world before that ayahuasca moment?

Joe Moore: Like, were you curious about it, um, thoughtful in any way? Or how did that roll for you?

Greg Shanken: Thank, I mean, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for the question. Mm-hmm. My, it’s my answer, uh, sounds cliche because it really. Is kind of cliche, you know, doing lots of mushrooms in college and seeing the Grateful Dead. And I kind of dates myself, and I’m not talking about Dead and Co.

Greg Shanken: I’m talking about the Grateful Dead with Jerry Garcia and I really dated myself. Um, and I’ve, you know, I had a lot of beautiful spiritual experiences with that and being in those settings. However, I didn’t know at that [00:12:00] time its role in healing. I, you know, that, that, that just wasn’t in my, uh, purview and we’re talking, you know, decades ago at this point.

Greg Shanken: But yeah, I mean, amazing experiences just with, you know, live music and jam band music and, um, you know, grateful Dead and Phish and Jazz Fest and festivals and jam, you know, so I’m a huge, huge, huge live music fan, uh, in that world. Um, but back then no, didn’t, didn’t understand how it was connected to.

Greg Shanken: Healing. And so, I mean, I can share how I then ended up, uh, at Ayahuasca if, uh,

Joe Moore: yeah, please.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So, um, I’ve struggled with depression, uh, my whole life really. And, you know, depression’s, um, you know, it sucks. It sucks. Uh, and, and so I’ve been on meds SSRIs for, uh, 10 [00:13:00] years and SNRIs for 20 years and a DD meds for five or six years.

Greg Shanken: And for me, they quote worked, meaning I was not treatment resistant. They did what they’re designed to do, which is tamp down those symptoms. Mm-hmm. And so they worked for me. Um, but as a famous, um, songwriter, said, and maybe you’ll recognize the lyrics, um, if you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause.

Joe Moore: Hmm. It’s

Greg Shanken: quite a bit like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze. So, and that’s, uh, Anastasio from Phish. So gotta get some song references in there. Hope you’re not, hope that’s cool with you, Joe. I’m not,

Joe Moore: I’m not too closeted. Just a little.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So, but that, that, that line really resonates because that’s what, um, a lot of these, you know, medications do.

Greg Shanken: So I, I was not depressed, but I, I went back into therapy and [00:14:00] in one of the first sessions, and this is being on meds, my therapist said, Hey, Greg, uh, you know, where do you feel this in your body? And literally the question did not compute. I was like, what the fuck? What are you talking about? Hmm. Body, like, you know, I have no black and blue marks.

Greg Shanken: And, and that was a huge wake up call. It really showed me how disembodied I was and the price I was paying for being on these meds. Um, and by the way, I don’t condemn prescription meds if they’re working for someone and you’re okay with the side effects and you’re happy, like, I’m super happy for you.

Greg Shanken: But for me, I decided to take a different path. And so that led me to Ayahuasca. I joke, I went like zero, from zero to Ayahuasca. Uh, you know, even though I’ve had like the recreational background. Um, so that’s what led me to Ayahuasca in January 22. And of course I had to titrate off the meds to do that safely, which I did.

Greg Shanken: And I’ve been off those meds ever [00:15:00] since. And yeah, I mean like all of us, I could keep going about the, um, on, about the journey. And you can, you can prompt me, but that’s how I’m kind of curious. You went

Joe Moore: like, did you go domestic? Did you go international? Um, yeah, kinda like a church route.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. I, I went domestic.

Greg Shanken: Um, it was a referral from a psychedelic healing coach friend I have in, in Oregon and mm-hmm. He referred me to an amazing guide in, um, actually Malibu and that’s where it was. And not to fast forward too much, but then I went back to her earlier this year for two bufo sits, so my first Bufo experiences.

Greg Shanken: So, um, but yes, and then I went on two other retreats that year, also domestic and all of them transformational in so many ways. But a month after about a month, almost to the day after each retreat, my depression would come back, and then that led me to other medicines like Ketamine and Bufo. And um, you know, now after three and a half years, I [00:16:00] feel like some.

Greg Shanken: Progress is, is being made. There are lots, you know, lots of winds along the way, but if you ever saw that healing graph, um, with my finger going up and down here mm-hmm. Straight line graph gradually up, but holy crap. Lots of, yeah, lots of tears and pain and, but also, you know, redemption and coming through it, so, yeah.

Greg Shanken: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: So, um, in some ways you must have had some kind of, I don’t know, training wheels came off a little bit with your experiences in the festival and kind of concert and live music world, right? Like, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like going from, you know, all you know, is a martini to, to ayahuasca. It was like a little bit like different of a transition than you might see other folks have.

Joe Moore: Or how do you see that?

Greg Shanken: Do you, do you mean different? [00:17:00] Or how, how do you, I just wanna make sure I understand.

Joe Moore: Like, so you’re going from zero to Ayahuasca, but you’re not really going from zero to Ayahuasca. ’cause you’ve been to all these other experiences and been deep into music and, you know, I’ve had a similar path, but I had, you know, a outrageous amount of breath work experience before I went into Ayahuasca.

Joe Moore: But that was breath work to ayahuasca, not breath breathwork music. Ayahuasca. Yeah. So it was like, right. Um, but you know, after, after too much fish and Burning Man and whatever, you know, assorted boats, like how do I like, you know, it’s, it’s not a, it’s not a zero to ayahuasca moment for me in, in that perspective.

Joe Moore: You know what it, does that make sense?

Greg Shanken: Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I hear what you’re saying. Um, yeah, and I still, I still, uh, enjoy recreational psychedelics, uh, for sure. And I, I think that it does. You know, going from recreational psycho nott to [00:18:00] transformational psychedelic experiences, and maybe that’s kind of the context you’re asking about.

Greg Shanken: Um, and yeah, so it’s, it’s not exactly like zero to ayahuasca, but certainly on the healing side it was. But you know, having those recreational experiences, um, definitely helped. Give me kind of a context of, of being in community and bringing in love. Right. Uh, I definitely feel that and live music experiences and, um, and, and gratitude also.

Greg Shanken: So, you know, there, there are, uh, you know, overlap right between recreational and, and, um, and healing. And then obviously each, each of those containers have very, uh, you know, unique aspects as well. Right? Yeah.

Joe Moore: It’s interesting, right? It’s like, um, uh, oh, my video broke. Yeah. I see, I [00:19:00] saw that. I saw that.

Joe Moore: Interesting. That’s a first, I think, but yeah. Um, all of a sudden your eyeballs don’t work and you don’t know they’re Right. Orientation. So, yeah. I, I, I, I guess I really push the limits in a lot of these recreational scenarios as many do. And like, I think, I think I’ve found it helpful, um, for, for being able to handle higher dose kind of weirder things.

Joe Moore: ’cause it was like, okay, for five days I’m not really gonna have an orientation. So like, so what if it’s two hours of not having kind of habituated to it? So I felt it was kind of like a, a weird preparation in a way, um, for being able to do the bigger, more interesting, weirder things. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And at, at times, Greg, I actually kind of framed it as.

Joe Moore: I didn’t know we were gonna go here, by the way, as being like some sort of like music Pythagorean kind of cult, where you’re kind of like, it’s you and the music and the music’s doing really interesting things and [00:20:00] you’re, you’re kind of, uh, seeing behind the scenes in some ways by being with the music so deeply.

Joe Moore: Um, and with movement. ’cause often there’s dancing too.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yes. I’ve been known to dance a little bit. Yeah. But no, that I, I, I love those comments because I, I, I hadn’t really thought of that parallel to, you know, the movement part, you know, being, being in our body. And I think that’s, you know, reflecting back as I’ve shared, you know, kind of being numbed out with the pharmaceutical meds, but music was still always my happy place.

Greg Shanken: And so much of that is, is the movement. I mean, I, it’s just. Oh yeah. You know, so somatic and the mo music moves you and you move with the music and with your friends and hugs and touch and love and so yeah. I, I, I, I think those recreational containers can certainly help set, set one up for, um, you know, deeper [00:21:00] psychedelic journeys on the, you know, healing side.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Moore: I don’t wanna like oversell it either. Right. There’s, there’s risks, there’s concerns of course, like people fall off hard sometimes and can have a really hard go. So it’s, you know, it’s not beginner terrain folks. Um, yeah. So, you know, be careful just like with all of it. This is not, you know, a clear, easy pathway.

Joe Moore: Um, and, um. Yeah, so, so it’s kinda interesting you, you access the services in, in Malibu. I think that’s like a, you know, it’s an iconic city in a lot of ways. It’s kind of like, you know, really having a hard time right now recovering from the fire, I’m sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s just like, um, there’s so much right there.

Joe Moore: There’s so much in Topanga, which is right next door to the canyon. Mm-hmm. It’s kinda like, you know, psychedelic central it seems like to me, or at least psychedelic hippie central. I don’t know Yeah. What the use is like there, [00:22:00] but it’s, um, it’s kind of analogous to Boulder. So you’re kind of like went from one to the other in a lot of ways, right?

Greg Shanken: Yeah. LA’s got a lot of, um, you know, in Southern California, San Diego, Santa Barbara, a lot of, a lot of friends communities. Yeah. A lot of, uh, in that, in that part of California. Of course growing everywhere now. But yeah, that’s where I. Ended up, and then the second one was outside Seattle. The third one was, uh, here in Boulder.

Greg Shanken: So. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Moore: That’s great. And was it like harrowing for you or was it just a look behind the curtains to say, oh, there’s a lot more here than I really was grappling with before? How did that kind of roll for you? You don’t have to get too specific, but, um, yeah. Feel free as much as you’d like.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Um, I’ve learned about myself that I’m, I’m an open book, so mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: I, I can get, I, I, I have, for whatever reason, I, it’s almost healing for me to be [00:23:00] vulnerable and. That’s another beautiful thing about this space. Um, walking around psychedelic science and getting lots of hugs and sharing our story. You know, being in this space, it’s like a, it’s just like a friendship accelerator, right?

Greg Shanken: You know, friendships take long to cultivate, but in this space they, they go fast and, and in the best possible way. And so for me, with my first experience, um, it was a two night ceremony and I did combo that morning. Didn’t know, even know what that was. The guide said, Hey Greg, you know, you’ve been titrating off the meds.

Greg Shanken: Um, let’s do combo. I said, okay, what’s that? And so that was wild. I’ve done done it quite a few times since. And I also make sure you, you’re asking about kind of like the first experience and how I. Came into this, is that,

Joe Moore: um, you know, like yeah, just give us whatever kind of narrative feels right. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Cool.

Greg Shanken: And I’ll keep it high level, but yeah, for, for just to give, um, [00:24:00] kind of a good context for anyone who’s considering this or, and I don’t see you anymore, so I’m not sure if popped off again. Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, ni night one was, and, and this kind of ties back to some of our discussion around the recreational side was, and I didn’t know anyone there, coincidentally, it was all women.

Greg Shanken: It was not a women’s retreat. That was just, uh, uh, uh, that’s, that’s just what it was. Mm-hmm. And I have Joe, I’ve never left so hard in my life and I’ve left a lot in my life. And, you know, in the settings we’ve talked about and some of the fun substances that we’ve done, and I mean, like my ribs were sore the next day.

Greg Shanken: It was just this joyous, buoyant. I, it was, it was just amazing. I’m like, this, I knew enough to know that that wasn’t the norm. I could also hear so many others in the room crying and not having this fun experience to the point where I was becoming actually self-conscious about it.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. [00:25:00]

Greg Shanken: And the next night was, um, the most terrifying night of my life, even to this day, after doing a lot more psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: I mean, I, I, I, yeah, man, it was my interpretation of that, and through integration was that grandmother as ayahuasca sometimes known, was showing me what I had not been experiencing. You know, I was kind of in this mid range of flat, which is what a lot of these meds are designed to do. Just keep you in this kind of, yeah.

Greg Shanken: Neutral range and night one, and I’m glad she did it in this order night one was, Hey, welcome to the Spirit world. Welcome to Ayahuasca, welcome to Plant Medicines. Have fun. And I did. And then the next night, holy crap. Wow. So kind of, she was bringing me to this full range of emotion that I had not been feeling for, you know, since I’d been on these [00:26:00] meds.

Greg Shanken: So, um, I’m glad she did it in that order. ’cause I think if it was reversed, I would’ve gotten on the next plane home. Um, but yeah, so that’s, that’s, that was my first retreat and it was, um, you know, I, I learned so much from it and took so much from it. And, um, that being, that being the big one, just like, Hey, Greg, hello, emotion.

Greg Shanken: You know, bring, bring it all in. Yeah.

Joe Moore: Where, where do you stand currently on kind of like the, the, um, planned animal derived psychedelics compared to like chemical psychedelics? Yeah. So you as an individual?

Greg Shanken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I went on three retreats that years I shared. And when my depression came back after that third one, um, it was just, instead of going back into medicine, I said, I just want to, it was almost [00:27:00] like I just wanna see what happens.

Greg Shanken: Like, can I navigate through with other modalities? I have breath work being a big one. And I actually, it was my second retreat where we did breath work every morning and that was my, um, kind of, uh, welcoming into breath work. And I’m a huge breath work fan and practitioner. Um, I know you are too. And so, you know, I was in therapy, breath work, uh, you know, other yoga and.

Greg Shanken: My depression just kept getting worse and worse, uh, through that whole last three months. And so something had to change. So that’s when I started using Ketamine 23. Um, I am intramuscular and for me, ketamine’s been a really profound, powerful medicine. I walked into that first session, a, a as low, I’ll, I’ll say one step above suicidality.

Greg Shanken: I’ve had suicidal thoughts. Mm-hmm. But, but not, you know, in the danger zone. [00:28:00] And I walked in and had that session and came out. It was such, such a lift, such relief. I knew it wasn’t one and done, I knew, but it was just, it was just relief. And, and, and now it’s so clear to me how ketamine can save lives.

Greg Shanken: Pharmaceutical meds can save lives too, but they can take four to six weeks to kick in. This was like instant relief. Mm-hmm. Um. Wow. Uh, so I, I used ketamine. I, I actually did, IM ketamine almost every month for, for two years. And now I’ll get to your question, but, you know, so that’s like my chemical side of, uh, you

Joe Moore: know, in this, in this spectrum.

Joe Moore: Were you comfortable in that experience? Was it like a little too extreme?

Greg Shanken: No, I, I was very comfortable. I mean, it’s mm-hmm. You know, um, a, a as, as strong as a heavy dose of ketamine can be, it’s, it’s,

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: It’s a gentle on-ramp, and then you’re just kind of blasted into a ego dissolution. [00:29:00] So, um, and I’m talking about, you know, intramuscular heavy doses.

Greg Shanken: They’re also as, you know, you know, lower dose containers with

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: You know, in a therapeutic setting. I mean, I was being supported in therapy, you know, throughout. So it wasn’t just, uh, you know, get a shot and go home. I was, yeah. Still working with IFS and parts, um. But after two years of that, uh, I, I, I kind of realized, I sort of took it as far as it could go.

Greg Shanken: I, I, I just felt like I, I wasn’t gonna get more out of it. And that led me this year into, um, Bufo, so five M-E-O-D-M-T Bufo. I’ve had two sits and Wow. Uh, that has for me, Joe, just been completely transformation, you know, all these experiences have, but I just feel like Bufo has really, uh, I can just feel it as I’m talking, like, it’s just, I don’t know, I kind of feel like I found my medicine and in Bufo and [00:30:00] kind of getting back to our earlier comments, like that’s one that I, I don’t say this with ego, but it’s like, although I just did meet someone today, I said I went zero to Ayahuasca and he said I went zero to Buffo.

Greg Shanken: But I, but I don’t know if I’d necessarily recommend that. Like for someone who’s like never done psychedelics, to jump right into. It’s a bufo. And that’s just my context and feeling. I wouldn’t tell anyone what to do or not to do, but, you know, bufos, it’s ineffable. Hard to describe. But, um, so yeah, so I’ve come run the gamut with plant medicines and the, you know, um, chemical substances and they, they’ve, they’ve all given me benefits.

Joe Moore: So, have we ever had the talk about bufo?

Greg Shanken: No, but I’d love to. I, I, oh gosh. Oh yeah. Bufo. Let’s talk about it. [00:31:00]

Joe Moore: Um, yeah. I’m so glad, uh, that we’re talking about it. So, yeah. Um. This has ruined some friendships. I’ll put it out there. Um, and, uh, yeah, some people don’t talk to me anymore. Um, I’ve been working on this for years and years.

Joe Moore: Um, so have you heard of the concept of blood toad? No. Okay. Have not. Great. And I assume you’re talking about Toad Source five M-E-D-M-T. Right.

Greg Shanken: That’s what I’ve done. And, and I do know about the, the, you know, different viewpoints there, if that’s what you mm-hmm mean. Yeah. We’re getting

Joe Moore: into the conservation thing briefly.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, let’s do it. So like, um, the first person that kind of really laid it out well for me was this, um, herpetologist, so lizard researcher in outta Tucson, Robert via. Um, he’s been on the show a bunch of times. He’s written a really comprehensive paper on conservation, um, of the toad. So it kind of features a lot of really good, um, data points in there around, [00:32:00] um, actual reasons for concern, including that it’s like kind of officially declared extinct in New Mexico and effectively extinct in California as well.

Joe Moore: Um, now the cartel’s involved, we call those blood tot. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, so there’s actually illicit trafficking and it’s like if you are not doing it yourself, there’s no way to really promise that you’re not getting involved with like, you know, cartel affiliated toad. Yeah. Um, and by doing it yourself, you can actually harm huge swaths of toad population.

Joe Moore: You can actually introduce fungus that can kill huge amounts of them. Um, and then, uh, yeah, even if you pick them up, bring them somewhere. Harvest the venom, put them back down on the ground. You could introduce fungus, you could leave them defenseless in terms of like not being able to like, uh, defend themselves and or find their way home.

Joe Moore: A lot of people think, oh, it’s towed, [00:33:00] there’s no home. It’s like, well, no, you kinda like, learn your little home area, just like mm-hmm. Just like a lot of mammals do. And you can protect yourself easier when you know the environment. Um, and then there’s this, uh, researcher who’s on our advisory board, melon og uh, Melin maybe.

Joe Moore: Um, she published some of the first papers talking about how synthetic five M-E-D-M-T is subjectively identical to, um, toad sourced. And so there’s an actual research and pretty good sample size kinda showing that. Um, so. It’s a, it’s a really long, big conversation, but yeah. You know, just the long and short, uh, especially with the decline in the populations, radically seeing a decline.

Joe Moore: Um, and Mike Tyson and other big name people hyping it. Yeah. I just don’t see how it’s conditionable con, you know, like how can we have a good conscience while we’re consuming toad sourced five, when the synthetic is available. You know, [00:34:00] if it’s a really, really religious thing, perhaps it could be done like once a decade or something, and the other stuff could be safer, you know, more safely used, um mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Because it’s only like three to $5 to per dose, probably for synthetic, maybe less. Um, and then I just, yeah. So that’s my story. I’m sticking to it. I always have, I haven’t found a reasonable reason, um, to deviate yet. You know, perhaps there is a spirit of the toad that’s helpful, but it’s like, let’s sacrifice the toad.

Joe Moore: Um, to the extinction bucket for our benefit. It like, doesn’t really feel like the right thing to me. Um, and again, you know, the way I phrase it is often a little too harsh and I’ve lost friends over it, but it’s a real thing. And I even wrote a pretty big, um, article on it, like kind a month or two ago, I think right before I burnout.

Joe Moore: Put that up. So that’s my story. Is that largely what you’ve heard?

Greg Shanken: Yes. In large part it hasn’t. And I, I read, um, I did read your article, I think you posted it [00:35:00] on LinkedIn or at least linked to it from LinkedIn. And, and I, you know, I was already aware of that school of thought and also through, you know, leaders like five, you know, Joel Brier and Victoria from Tin Retreats and that, that’s their viewpoint.

Greg Shanken: Um, and so, well first of all, you haven’t lost a friend in me, but you also said it was the way you said it. Maybe, maybe you said it really harsh to me. You were very, very, um, yeah, just measured about it. Uh, so. We, we we’re definitely still friends for sure. Um, so yeah, I’ve, you know, like I said, I’ve had two sit, um, and this isn’t in a saying this in a, in a defensive posture, you know, I, I know that the guy I sit with is, um, you know, ethically sourcing it and, but still to your point, doesn’t matter how quote, ethical it’s being done, there are still a lot of, you know, landmines around this, be [00:36:00] it cartel or, yeah, like you said in introduced.

Greg Shanken: So, yeah. And then in terms of the experience itself, what I, what it is that it high doses, it kind of feels the same at lower doses, maybe it is a different experience. I’ve done the high dose. Um, but anyway, I, you know, obviously I, I want to be, you know, ecologically responsible. And so, you know, my two sets have been with Bufo, the Toad and mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: Um, but. I’m aware of these, you know, um, some of the conflicts around it. And so, yeah, as I sit here right now, I’m not married to one and I’m not gonna come and punch, punch back on the other side of that. It’s, you know, I’m navigating my way through it and mm-hmm. I always bring a beginner’s mindset, so, you know, uh, yeah.

Greg Shanken: So Cool.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for hearing that. And it’s like always a hard one for me. I a similar position on peyote. I just try to tell white folks to stay away. Mm-hmm. Like, there’s no, [00:37:00] there’s no real reason why we need to be doing it. Yeah. Unless it’s some sort of crazy, sincere religious in interest and, um, good friends that really want to bring you into NAC.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. NAC is so politically complicated. I, I like, there’s, there’s all sorts of branch offs and, um, complicated politics there. So I, I just try to say, Hey everybody, this is really hard. Maybe. Back off for a while. Um, yeah. And maybe there’ll be a good landing eventually for us. And that was, it’s so hard.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah,

Joe Moore: that’s

Joe Moore: all.

Greg Shanken: Um, yeah, I was just reflecting back that prop on 22, that was one of the, um, big carve outs that it was mescalin, not peyote in the bill. Mm-hmm. Oregon did not do that. Whenever I talk about any differences between Colorado and Oregon or enhancements, I say it with the utmost of respect.

Greg Shanken: And then I do, I do the, do this like the bow down ’cause they were the first. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: And so, thank you, Oregon and New Mexico can say [00:38:00] thank you Colorado, but they can also say, Hey, Colorado, you’re making mistakes. So that was a really, um, responsible piece of the bill here. That it was masculine, but specifically not peyote.

Greg Shanken: And that was out of respect for, you know, indigenous lands and you know, the themes that you’re sharing.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. And to go a little further, I guess this indigenous reciprocity and like, not encroaching too much conversations coming up a lot. I’ve heard, um, a lot of pushback on the mushroom stuff in Oregon and in Colorado because of the lineage with the matech.

Joe Moore: And I think there’s something to look at there. I don’t know the answer. Um, some people say slow down. I, I try to pivot and say LSD and MDMA, like they’re kind of ours. So like, let’s lean into the molecules that are ours and, and don’t necessarily have such a complicated background. And, um, yeah. I just, you know, it’s a, it’s a very complicated time to be doing, [00:39:00] um, kinda legalization work and, and popularization work.

Joe Moore: We wanna be delicate when we can and, um, yeah. Make space for being delicate if we can everybody.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed on that. Mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: I’m sure you’ve bumped into some interesting hard conversations there. Have you any particular stories around that?

Greg Shanken: Yeah, I mean, during the campaign, um, and at this point I was new in this space and I, so at that point I was surprised to hear that there were people, you know, kind of very much in our world, Joe, people that we see at conferences and that, you know, and say hi and hug, um, that we’re against Prop 1 22.

Greg Shanken: Hmm. And again, this is Greg three years ago, certainly more naive than I was. Like, what, how, Hmm. How could you be, how could you be against this? I don’t mean to the general population because there’s a lot of people outside our space who think drugs are evil and yada yada. I’m talking about people [00:40:00] in our world.

Greg Shanken: And I was like, what it, and they felt it didn’t go far enough, or that it didn’t do enough for, you know, respect for indigenous rights and reciprocity. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was at a, I was at a conference and. Someone stood up and, and really was very vocal about it. I, I guess I don’t really wanna name names, but it, it got pretty uncom.

Greg Shanken: It got very uncomfortable. And again, this was someone in our space and yeah, it really, it really shook up, it really shook up the room. Um, so yes, even with our, in our small, wonderful, beautiful community, there still will always be factions, right? Whether it’s Bufo versus five MEO or peyote, you know, versus Right.

Greg Shanken: Or like you said, like, hey, like let’s stick with our molecules. So yeah, these are some of the thorny issues that we’re. Dealing with and navigating. Yeah.

Joe Moore: So what kind of stuff is exciting you about Oregon and Colorado? Collaborating on an event, [00:41:00] like collaborate and, and kind of scaling this stuff and helping figure it out together, because this is not an easy thing to solve for, right?

Joe Moore: This is a really complicated project. Um, but yeah. What would’ve has been exciting you?

Greg Shanken: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so yeah, a lot of complexities in, in this space and it’s, you know, I, I value kind of the, the, the love affair between Colorado and Oregon and New Mexico. Come on in, and Alaska come on in. And, you know, it’s gonna be a, it’s a warm welcome for anyone who wants to be in this movement.

Greg Shanken: Even if you’re in a state that’s not at all, you know where you want it to be. Like, we’re, we’re all working together here. It’s just kind of funny when you look at a map and you see just lines and it’s like. On this side of the line, you can do this and that side of the line. You can’t do that, you know?

Greg Shanken: So what’s exciting is the excitement. I mean, it’s the growth in, in the awareness. And, you know, I, I always think about like the, the, I use the [00:42:00] persona of like the soccer mom in Iowa and the, you know, the mm-hmm. The, the PTSD, um, inflicted, you know, veteran in wherever Texas, right? And they hear Oprah talking about psychedelics.

Greg Shanken: And maybe they, they’re not tuned into this podcast ’cause they might not know it exists. Um, but, you know, certainly they know Oprah exists. Um, and so, or a friend says, oh, I read this article about microdosing and how it helps, you know, and it’s like, okay. But then she says to herself, or he says to himself, okay, like, now what?

Greg Shanken: Okay, where do I, mm-hmm. Where do I get access to this? How do I do it? How do I do it safely? Oh, wow. To do it legally, I have to fly to Oregon or Colorado. That could be really hard. Whether it’s taking care of the kids or just the money to do it, plus the cost of the journey. So you asked me what I’m excited about.

Greg Shanken: I’m pointing out these things that are challenges, but, and there are many, what I’m excited about is that people are coming and organizations are coming [00:43:00] together, whether it’s putting on events like collaborates to raise awareness and provide education around responsible use, harm reduction, um, you know, microdosing, which is a great pathway in or breath work, right?

Greg Shanken: Which as you know, we don’t need substances to, to get into, you know, um, you know, a mind altering or expanding journey and that’s a great pathway in. But, um, so there are many nonprofits and even for-profits that are doing amazing work to help with accessibility. So if you all mentioned, one is, thank you life, they’re out of Austin.

Greg Shanken: They raise money to help send people into ketamine treatment that cannot, may not be able to otherwise afford it. And then there are organizations like Althea, which. Just started what’s called the Forward Fund, and it’s very similar, but that’s for psilocybin. And then even with Collaborates, um, of course we’re selling tickets, but one of the options on the checkout page is pay what you can and we really mean it.

Greg Shanken: Pay what you can. If it’s a dollar, we want you in the door, [00:44:00] we want you in the circle, we want you learning, we want you asking questions. Um, and so I think that because all of us, kind of wherever we are, uh, uh, it, it may be the, some of the conflicts within it, we still wanna give everyone access. So that’s something I’m really excited about is collaboration, um, awareness, education, access, and the understanding that we, we, we just really need to, to do everything we can to make these medicines and, um, modalities accessible no matter your.

Greg Shanken: You know, income, geography, race, religion, you know, all those things that can divide us, but we’re not looking at it that way. So that’s a big thing that I’m excited about.

Joe Moore: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I love it. And there’s just so much room for improvement in the space and, um. Community building connection.

Joe Moore: ’cause a lot of what we lost, you know, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I, you know, worked in corporate [00:45:00] software for 20 years and this, um, kind of like isolation, driving to the office, like, you’re traffic, your body hurts, you’re not moving very much, you’re not necessarily able to access the best foods all the time.

Joe Moore: And, um, you don’t get to be with the people you love the most, as much as you’d like. Um, and there’s just a lot of complicated factors around this kind of corporate thing and business thing Yeah. These days in America. And I think psychedelic can help us kind of, um, repair our relationship to that. Do you, do you tend to agree or how do you see that?

Greg Shanken: I, I do. And I, I know people who are doing, I’m sure you do too. Coaches that are working with executives or teams and bringing microdosing, breath work, um, you know, into that space to help people become better leaders or, you know, heart-centered leaders. In Boulder about three months ago, the second annual Conscious Entrepreneurs Summit.

Greg Shanken: And it was not a psychedelic summit, although, [00:46:00] you know, it was a psychedelics friendly crowd. But literally when it started, it was, um, you know, they put up the rules and one of the rules, you know, no pitching, no talk of metrics and spreadsheets and, you know, they obviously wouldn’t kick you out if you did that.

Greg Shanken: But it was like, that was the ethos, right? Like we’re, we’re here to become better leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, in a way that’s more aligned with, um, you know, those deeper values that, that cont tend to be overlooked or completely ignored in the, you know, conventional. Corporate settings and, and I worked in corporate software world too for a couple decades.

Greg Shanken: So I, I I feel you. And that’s why I would say, say, you know, these conferences, like, you know, when you were in the software world, Joe, did you ever go to like a trade show and get lots of hugs? I mean, I, I, I didn’t, um,

Joe Moore: I, so No, no. It’s people that just wanna drink really hard. Um, yeah. And I’m like, oh God.

Joe Moore: Like, I, you know, that certainly helped my [00:47:00] alcohol habit at the time, you know? Yeah, right. In negative ways, but mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s just shocking. You know, I, I had maybe one or two really, really sweet friends in corporate America. Mm-hmm. You know, um, and were they even American? And I think one was Chinese and Okay.

Joe Moore: And the others are probably Canadian, so it’s fascinating, you know. Yeah. Um, but yeah, not trade shows like that. No, no. It’s just a hug fest.

Greg Shanken: It is. It it is, it is. So, I, I think, um, businesses are waking up. Uh, and leaders are waking up and just re realizing maybe in, you know, in themselves, Hey, this, this, like what am I doing?

Greg Shanken: And why am I doing this? And um, and so I think once they have that transformation, psychedelics can be, uh, a, a big aid and, and, um, kind of raising consciousness and awareness and, and, and helping those leaders transform. And then once [00:48:00] one goes through that type of transformation as a leader, a founder, executive, um, you know, ideally that can then spread into the organization and that’s mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: A good thing. So I’m all, I’m all for that.

Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so who, who out there has been kind of an inspiration to you in kind of like digging in, um, to this kind of project with the enthusiasm you have?

Joe Moore: Yeah.

Joe Moore: And it’s okay to leave people out. They maybe,

Greg Shanken: well, I was about to mention you, but ah, um, and absolutely you leave me out.

Greg Shanken: Yeah. Um, a big one has been Joe, the author of Fellowship of the River and great book. That’s where I, yeah, great book. And he has a new book, which I have not read yet, but you know, it, it, it’s, so, it’s called Fellowship of the River. And he’s, he’s a, um, western trained medical doctor. He is of Columbia descent.

Greg Shanken: And he went through his own [00:49:00] transformation in medical school where he was stressed out and freaking out. He went to the, you know, nurse’s office or doctor’s office on campus. ’cause he was having so much anxiety and they said, oh no, you’re just having, um, medical school syndrome, like, go back, you’re fine.

Greg Shanken: And he was, and he was, he was not fine. Uh, and I know that feel, I mean, he was not fine. And then he discovered the medicine. And, and so the, the book is really inspirational because he brings the western, the credibility of the western. You know, medical training, because there are good things about that.

Greg Shanken: You know, not all of it, but it’s not throwing the baby out of the bath water. Right. And, but then he became literally a shaman in Peru and opened up a retreat there. And so the book is really inspirational because he, because he has that credibility and literally he’s talking about Western medical principles and then singing econo to people and helping them, you know, solve and cure, um, IBS Yeah.

Greg Shanken: Anxiety, depression. So that, that’s been a, um, [00:50:00] he’s been a big one for me. Um,

Joe Moore: and I love that Scott Shannon did the four to this new book, by the way. I’m really excited about that and

Greg Shanken: Oh, cool. Yeah, I actually didn’t, didn’t, uh, didn’t notice that. Yeah. So that, that’s his new book. Um, so that’s been, that was a big one for me.

Greg Shanken: Um, I’m sure there, yeah, there, there definitely are. Others. Uh, but that, that’s one that sticks out. ’cause that was so early on in my mm-hmm. Uh, you know, um, transformational journey. Yeah.

Joe Moore: I would say Jerry Garcia.

Greg Shanken: Jerry Garcia. Yeah. Uh, yeah, if we wanna go there, that’s Oh, sure. Jerry Garcia Uhhuh, you know, I quoted Trey before and, you know, they’re both so, so spiritual and bringing that spirit into the music and, um, and then that music, bringing community and Yeah.

Greg Shanken: You know, we could go on and on about that and, and, [00:51:00] uh, maybe someday we will, but Oh yeah. Yeah. Lots of amazing musicians and their, their wisdom, so, yeah.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s fascinating. Um, so how about like worldview and metaphysics? So like a lot of people. Kind of, you know, they get that kind of corporate dead soul feel and then, you know, it’s not really much metaphysics.

Joe Moore: It’s like, am I gonna be able to make it through? Like, what’s, you know, what is morality and ethics and um, where’s my soul gonna go when I ize it? It’s not really there all the time when you’re just kinda like grinding and working. Right. And then stuff gets a little more exciting when psychedelics come in.

Joe Moore: Exciting in that you’re engaging in ideas in a felt way. Yeah. Like was there a big shift for you in kind of like lar I guess worldview, but in like a really big way, if you catch my drift? Like, you know mm-hmm. Philosophically and [00:52:00] spiritually.

Greg Shanken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. And, um, I mean, my worldview has certainly changed my relationship with, you know, money capitalism, um, having to rethink.

Greg Shanken: Who I am in contrast to what my little kid self LA would be and wanted to be and didn’t turn out to be, but realizing that that was being driven by young, traumatized parts of myself. And I’m in IFS parts work, so I can look at things from a parts perspective, though I still need help from my therapist to smack me and say, Greg, it’s your parts.

Greg Shanken: Stop on blending, um, you know, using parts work terminology. Uh, but I was thinking about this the other day ’cause I, I’m really, I’m really digging into ai. Definitely not an AI expert, but I’m, I’m immersing myself in AI and just absolutely blown away by it. And I listen to this, um, daily podcast. It’s called AI Daily [00:53:00] Brief.

Greg Shanken: It’s, it’s a really good podcast. It’s like 20 minutes and just gives you, um, and, and I’m learning so much from it in terms of how to think about AI and strategy and tools and, but then they’ll get into discussions about. Mergers and takeovers and 20 billion from, you know, this company buying that company.

Greg Shanken: And, and it’s like, I kind of want to know those things ’cause just to have like a pulse on what’s happening, like in the business part of it. But to your question, I’m just like, who the fuck, like 20 billion over here and 79 trillion. It’s like, what are we doing? Like what are we doing? Like they’re doing what they need to be doing, building a business.

Greg Shanken: But I don’t know. It’s like, it’s hard to explain. It was hard even when it like hit me, I was like, ah, ah. So, you know, so, um, so my, my worldview has, has, has dramatically changed in, in terms of just what it’s cliche, but like what, what are we here to do? What’s our meaning? What’s our purpose? What’s my meaning, [00:54:00] what’s my purpose?

Greg Shanken: And I’ve certainly come a long way in, in that within myself, but it just does get to that existentialism of like. What are we doing? And then as we talk about psychedelics, we, there’s a lot of good answers that we’re, we’re doing some cool stuff. Mm-hmm. We’re raising awareness and healing people. And now the healing centers are open here.

Greg Shanken: You asked me what I’m excited about. I’ve been to two open houses in the past month. Um, the Moru and Chariot two great, great, um, healing centers and the is a spinoff of Naropa, and Lamo is actually a client of mine. But just tying back to earlier, like, they had to spin off of Naropa because they were gonna lose their insurance policy because Naropa had a center for psychedelic studies, so they had to literally spin off new entity.

Greg Shanken: And that was a big, you know, pain in the ass. Um, but I was at their open house and it was like, there were tears, there were hugs. I mean, it was just so weaving it back to my comments, like a large part of [00:55:00] what we’re like, that’s what we’re doing. We’re we’re healing and, and helping each other. And, and then those other companies can talk about the.

Greg Shanken: $20 trillion, you know, takeovers and that’s fine, but it’s not where I’m spending a lot of my time in energy. Not what you’re here for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Moore: Right. It’s more about building this kind of like mutual aid and support healing infrastructure where we’re, you know, able to actually get to know each other.

Joe Moore: Not always make it transactional in a

Joe Moore: Yeah,

Joe Moore: I need to buy your $20,000 pill kind of format. Yeah. But like, yeah, you know, there is a place for expensive treatments, everybody, but like a lot of this stuff we can do with much more affordable treatments, um, than, than that. And what Greg, how do you, we actually had a wrap the other day, I think it was Thursday, about, um, [00:56:00] the programs being like at a kind of disadvantage.

Joe Moore: Because the state kind of put in a lot of regulations ’cause the state needed to feel safe, um, doing such an edgy thing, which, you know, congrats to Colorado and Oregon for doing such a big thing, but you know, it’s now really expensive to access these services in a lot of ways. Um, like how do you, how do you like to think about this kind of, this phase of the larger psychedelic project and legalization versus decrim and, and these acts, this various access paradigms?

Greg Shanken: Yeah. So yes, I have a lot of, you know, feelings and thoughts around that. So it’s a good thing that these states are making these treatments, um, and healing modalities legal, because that’s gonna raise awareness and that’s gonna help, you know, bring this to more people and that’s a good thing. Um, but anything in the regulated model is [00:57:00] just going to cost more.

Greg Shanken: I mean, a healing center has a brick and mortar. Structure that they have to pay for, get insurance for, and, you know, adhere to the, the regulations. Um, and so the treatments are gonna be more expensive than going underground, you know, as you know, it’s, you know, 2,500, $3,000 for those treatments for, you know, my, um, psilocybin journey.

Greg Shanken: And if you’re coming from the outside, you’re, you’re that soccer mom or military vet dad. So you hear Oprah talking about psychedelics and then $3,000 and I gotta fly to Colorado. What the fuck? Like, what are these people doing to, you know, extract money from us? Now you and I know a lot of these people, they’re not there to extract money.

Greg Shanken: They’re there to heal, and then they gotta pay their rent.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Greg Shanken: So it’s a, and then, you know, once you know about this, which I know you do, you know, two prep sessions, six or eight hour journey, two integration sessions, if you kind of like net that out, practitioner’s making about the same as what a therapist [00:58:00] would make, you know, one 50 to 200.

Greg Shanken: An hour, right? Mm-hmm. But if you just hear $3,000, then you’re gonna, and you don’t know anything else about it. It’s like, what the fuck? Right? So, um, and it’s hard work. It’s hard work. It’s draining work and I’m, I’m in training for it myself. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s obviously hard to be a client and it’s hard and draining to be a facilitator.

Greg Shanken: And so, um, but then, you know, you, you can do this, you can, you know, gain access to these underground, but if you’re that soccer mom, even the term underground sounds like a, you know, dirty basement when if it’s with someone reputable, it’s a beautiful ceremony space. It just means they don’t have a license from the state.

Greg Shanken: But now your cost could be a thousand dollars. And a lot of them say sliding scale, like pay, pay what you can, just like we’re doing with collaborates. And so, um, so I’m absolutely thrilled that there’s a regulated model. And yet, you know, [00:59:00] a lot of, brings up a lot of thorny issues and a lot of people that are even going through training and the training that I’m in, um, are choosing to go underground.

Greg Shanken: So I, I’m kind of touching on a lot of different aspects of it, but, and then of course, none of this is covered by insurance, but yet, and then there’s really wonderful organizations like, uh, uh, thank You Life for Ketamine and Althea for psilocybin that are helping on the accessibility side. So yeah, those are some of my, oh, I’ll just add a couple of things, which is that, you know, service centers in Oregon and they call ’em service centers there.

Greg Shanken: Um, I, uh, I’m not a branding expert, but I do have an eye towards branding and I said, doesn’t a service center, doesn’t that sound like a place where you kinda like, bring your car? One, it’s broken, but somebody made the decision to call them service centers, servicing your, you know, mind, spirit. And I’m just poking fun at Oregon.

Greg Shanken: ’cause again, thank you, Oregon, we call them healing centers here seems more aligned. Um, but you know, [01:00:00] some of them are already going outta business now. Some of them maybe shouldn’t have been in business. They didn’t have the business acumen and they just said, Hey, kind of like starting a dispensary, cannabis.

Greg Shanken: But I, but I don’t, that, I don’t think that explains all of, kinda some of the, um, you know, some of, some of those, uh, failures out there, business failures. But I have a client out there and she said, you know, we haven’t made money in a year and it’s been the best year of my life. That’s what she said. ’cause they’re seeing the healing.

Greg Shanken: They still gotta pay the bills. Um, you know, and then now we have the regulated model opening here and we’ll see how, how that plays out. So, yeah. Um, definitely can be on my soapbox there. But those are some of the sort of. Pieces of it that I see within this landscape.

Joe Moore: Yeah, it’s, it’s really a set of interesting things we just need to keep working on.

Joe Moore: I think you’re gonna help address that to some degree at collaborates and like, how do we actually start phrasing these things or [01:01:00] different kinds of offerings that are actually more attractive. ’cause you’re right, like this is, it’s a really hard sale. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s important to have these safe containers up, especially for people with like really serious issues and, um, yeah, or, and, or just vulnerable folks in general.

Joe Moore: Um, I think for some folks it’s really okay to offer what five hour sit, but for other folks it’s not, it’s very much not okay for that to be the only part of the offer. Mm-hmm. Um, it’s a really interesting thing that we’re all kind of trying to sort out together here. Yeah. So thanks for your efforts and, um, can you give us a plug for collaborative again?

Greg Shanken: Sure. So yeah, it’s a two day event. It’s gonna be amazing, amazing speakers, sponsors, vendors, exhibitors, experiential events. Um, Saturday’s gonna be, is online that is more for professionals in the space. Sunday Community Day Open to anyone and everyone, psychedelic, curious, Auts [01:02:00] facilitators, anyone. And that’s in Portland and in Boulder.

Greg Shanken: So if you go to Higher Frequency Network slash pt, P as in psychedelics, T as in today. So Higher Frequency Network slash pt. You can learn more about it, you can get a special 20% psychedelics today discount. And then you can also sign up for the Higher Frequency Network, which is the, um, private vetted psychedelic marketing network I mentioned earlier.

Greg Shanken: And join our launch list. We are in a beta launch now. All right. But please sign up if you have any interest at all. There’s no cost to join. Then a lot more will be coming out about that, uh, really in the next couple weeks. ’cause we have, the interest has been really, really strong. But as far as collaborates, that’s also a nonprofit event.

Greg Shanken: Um, you’re supporting nonprofit organizations like Colorado Psychedelic Society and Pada doing great work. And the accessibility piece, I’ll just say again, we are [01:03:00] selling tickets, but there is an option right on the page. Pay what you can and just come on in. Just pay, pay what? Don’t, don’t let that stop.

Greg Shanken: You get a ticket, come on in and let’s have some hugs.

Joe Moore: Yeah, I love that. Thanks so much for making it today, Greg. Thanks for sharing a bunch about your journey and your opinions and, um, excited to see where this goes and, um, not only with collaborates, but with higher frequency. So let’s keep it rolling.

Joe Moore: Thanks again. Thank

Greg Shanken: you. Yeah, thank you man. Great to be here.