Kyle Buller: Welcome everybody to Psychedelics. Today we are here at Psychedelic Science, um, and doing some interviews, and we’re here with Matt Xavier from the psychedelic dj. So super excited to dig into this topic, Matt.

So thank you for your time for, for being here.

Matt Xavier: Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. I’ve been looking forward to this for sure.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. How has psychedelic science been for you?

Matt Xavier: It’s been fascinating. You know, I thought you might ask that question. I’ve never been here [00:01:00] before. And the last, this is your first psychic conference?

This is my first one. Wow. And the conferences that I had done in the past, when I was running my record labels were all down in Miami or in Europe. I’d go to Sonar, I’d go to, um. To a winter music conference, and it was different back then. It was the late nineties, early two thousands, and we would run around and give out vinyl and just do a lot of that.

And it was always a hustle, but I was a different person back then. And so now I’m coming back around and I’m finally coming out about my work and sharing this, and I’m coming out here and, um. It’s been overwhelming in a lot of ways. There’s so much to do. I don’t have any time to even see any talks. I’m just working the expo room, promoting the book, but I’m, I’m having some really good interactions and, um.

I’ve rekindled some friendships here that, uh, there’s been healing here for me. Oh, amazing. Which has been great. You know, there was some, I had some, uh, some, you know, things not end out right with friendships and then I saw those people and we immediately healed that and that was great. Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:02:00] And then I thought about it, um, when I bumped into Joe yesterday, I walked right up to him and I’ve never met him before and there was an instantaneous connection. And he just immediately took me in and he starts showing me pictures of his, of his couch, DJ booth at Burning Man. And it was like, I had no problem going.

We should totally get together and mix records. And he was like, yeah, absolutely. And so there’s this like familial connection, not just. From, um, from psychedelics, but also the music and the DJing kind of put us just on an eye to eye level, which is what the raves scene is about. As I can travel anywhere in the world, drop right in and go, you’re on the same page with me.

And, um, and then we can immediately, you know, drop into the community of it all. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that.

Kyle Buller: Talking about community and music, have you been to any of these after parties? I mean, there’s so much happening this time around with. So much great music, it’s hard to really figure out what to do.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I’ve seen that too. Um, when we first started doing this, we, I got invited in to [00:03:00] do the, to play at the Sheldon 100, and then I, um, brought in my good friend Unal to assist and, and headline. And so, um, me and her, we kind of handled the, the sanctuary. And, um, that was a fantastic gathering. The speakers were amazing.

Leonard Picard gave a beautiful speech. There was a standing ovation. Um, and then we played ambient music at the beginning. We came back later and played dance music. Ended up downstairs in the gallery with, um, David Starfire was down there. Oh, cool. So that was really awesome. But again, at the same time, there’s so many other events.

We almost went out last night to a psychedelic playhouse. Um, then there was, uh, Paul Austin’s thing. But we were so exhausted, we just ended up at the state capitol and watched the kids blow up fireworks. So, you know, um, tonight though, we’re going over to Meow Wolf. We’re supporting Unal over there. Cool.

And then we’re throwing our own rave tomorrow night. It’s an ambient techno. Oh, cool. Rave that starts at 11:00 PM and goes till 6:00 AM. It’s at a warehouse in [00:04:00] Denver. Cool. And it’s an underground excursion. Oh wow. And we’re going super deep. Yeah. We’re gonna take it into the Ambien, chill out realms, but also bring in some classic rave techno.

And it’s gonna be a really deep exploration with just, uh, me, her and, uh, Dennis Snakes is opening. So Cool. Cool. Yeah. It’s gonna be cool. There’s a lot going on. There’s a

Kyle Buller: lot going on. Yeah. Which is amazing. And so for those that are listening and you’re like. I wish I was there. Yeah, definitely. Come in the future.

’cause psychic science is, it’s such an experience. Yeah. It feels like a trip in itself. Yeah. Like, what do I do? Where do I go? Yeah. That’s

Matt Xavier: what my wife is like, she’s saying the same thing. She’s like, boy, I didn’t know this was it. And I went home and my ankles were hurting from the distances in the convention center are crazy.

I mean, just to walk them and, and, and try to get around. It’s been, uh, it’s, it’s been humbling for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. But it’s, it’s worth coming. I mean, to be around the, well, the community

Kyle Buller: too, and just meeting everybody. I mean, that’s. I feel where a lot of the magic is. Yeah. You know, just like this, being able to sit down and just chat with you face to face versus being on Zoom, right?

Yeah. It’s like everybody is just here.

Matt Xavier: [00:05:00] Completely. The magic too. We were in the elevator last night at the hotel and as we’re in the elevator, this guy who didn’t look like he even was at the conference, and then he’s like, what are you guys here for? And then he’s telling us all about this integration technology that he created.

He says, come up to my room. So we’re end up in his room and he is showing us all this amazing technology created for integration. That’s wild. And that was out of nowhere. And so that’s the kind of magic, you know, we bumped into Merrill Ward, who I haven’t seen in years. Oh cool. And I was talking, having conversation with him, but I didn’t recognize him.

And so there’s all these weird little magical moments that are happening.

Kyle Buller: Yeah, yeah. It’s really beautiful. So let’s dig into you. Okay, cool. So, you know, you started talking about this rave. I know you have a background in being a dj, but you’re also a therapist, so can you Yeah. Give us who you are. Yeah.

Who was Matt?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, perfect. Excuse me. So, yeah, it started back in the early nineties and I was introduced to the rave culture in New York City. Um, I’m from Long Island and so that was kind of a mix between Long Island and the New York scene. Went in there and just was birthed [00:06:00] into the culture and, uh, at club NASA in downtown New York.

And once I stepped in there, I knew I was completely hooked and I was gonna do events and dj I started DJing. About a year or so after. And then, um, I started throwing events and, and bringing over a unique style of music called Psychedelic Trance. At the time it was called Goa Trance. And I had a DJ name called Matthew Magic and a company called Tsunami Productions.

And we were throwing all these black light raves with psychedelic trance music. And it was a crazy time. It was lawless and there was tons of debauchery and amazing experiences. Um, I eventually like hit a bottom with. That at the, let’s say around 2000 and finally exited that and, um, took a 15 year break and got away from psychedelics, um, dove into spiritual practices, um, eventually opened a, a record label when I moved to Los Angeles.

Um, ran that. And then, um, the record label and the, the DJing scene got really exhausting. So then, um, I felt the, the drive to go in and start to get trained in, in therapy and counseling. [00:07:00] So I sought out a, a, uh, certification in, uh, addiction counseling. Um, met my mentor, Alan Berger, started getting trained in geal therapy.

And then worked for 10 years in the addiction industry throughout the whole kind of Oxycontin, heroin epidemic. Mm-hmm. And we were losing a lot of clients. There was a lot of problems in the, um, addiction industry at the time. And that burned me out. And once that happened, um, I started looking around. My friend was working in the harm reduction community.

Uh, she was on some of the MDMA trials and I went over and hung out with her, told her about everything that was going on. She sent me to, um, the, uh, what is it, psychedelia integration? Yeah. And, uh, Cherie was running a group and I went down and hung out there. And I had run by that point. So many groups. I was, you know, group director at a program.

So I walked in and I was at home and, um, she just brought me in and that whole community did, and I immediately knew that that was where I was gonna be. So I just, um, [00:08:00] started, you know, creating a psychedelic integration practice. I got trained in psychedelic therapy. And then, um, at that point started sitting for clients and that’s where I started developing the protocol that I have now.

Mm-hmm. Um, using psilocybin primarily and then mixing music with that. And while I was doing that, my wife just came out and she said, I know you thought you quit DJing. But you are DJing for an audience of one. Yeah. And um, and that was a, that was something I wasn’t really noticing because I was so just busy on doing something new.

And, um, that’s where my colleagues started, you know, coming over. I’d talk about my work and they said, you should probably write this down. Mm. But I’m not an academic. I’ve never really written anything anywhere near as extensive as this, and so that seemed a bit daunting. So I just started with notes and um, I would be out on those hikes and do talk to text into the phone.

Collected that over years and in 2022, sat down in the winter. And just plowed away and got about [00:09:00] 40,000 words down. Took a year break, came back, saw what I had, and then worked from February, 2024 to April, 2024 and got the book finished, or at least the first draft. Yeah. Met Doug Real, who is, um, working for Synergetic at the time.

And then Doug picked up my project and brought on our team, uh, Noelle Armstrong, uh, Allison Fellas, uh, Don, uh, McLoan to do production. And that whole team, my sister, um, helped edit the first draft. So that was my whole creation team. So the book is my work, but it is the work of our team, our team through so much energy and effort at it and counseled me through this process because it is life changing.

To write a book. I had no clue that it is such a powerful process. I just thought it was difficult. Yeah. I didn’t know it would be a spiritual endeavor that would change me in the ways that it has. And so, um, coming to the conference has kind of refreshed me because I was feeling really burned out and my PhD clients have told me.

When you write a [00:10:00] PhD, you’re probably not gonna wanna ever read it again. And I didn’t know what that meant. And that’s how this has been where everyone’s like, you must be excited.

Kyle Buller: Have you opened it?

Matt Xavier: I have opened it and I’ve read it and I’m often like, who wrote that? You know, it’s like it’s changed so much and I’m.

Had to psychologically pull away from it. But, um, now that I’ve been building up to the conference and then I’m rereading it again and I’m doing interviews, there’s a new excitement and, uh, this thing has been birthed to life. It’s, it’s a baby for sure. And I now understand what authors go through and why it changes ’em, you know?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. ’cause it’s like, you know, once you’re done, you’re thinking it’s probably already changed. Yeah, exactly. You know? Exactly. And it’s like, then you probably, you can’t go back ’cause it is like the editing process has already started. Absolutely. And then, um. Yeah, it, it’s a process to write something and put it out there to the world.

It, so congratulations, you know, just skimming through it. It looked like you really have thought that out.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I really did. And it’s a vulnerable endeavor and I tried to use it as, um, you know, I studied the work of Brene Brown for a while, and so thank God I did because. [00:11:00] That vulnerability piece that she pushes really helps, um, enlighten all the underlying shame that says I can’t do it.

And instead, um, by doing this, it’s, you know, a way for me to send that message to myself that I can get out there and allow my message to get to the world. And, um, you know, there’s a lot of questioning that goes on. Am I good enough to do this? Do I have a right to put this out there? Right? And, um, that challenges all of that.

But, um, I’ve stuck with it and I’ve had a lot of support from friends and family, so it’s been a. Incredible endeavor, and

Kyle Buller: it’s an important topic, you know? Yeah. Music is so crucial to the psychedelic experience. Oh my gosh. And you know, there’s not a lot of great resources out there around like, what type of music do I select?

Mm-hmm. How do I create a playlist? Like what is the theory around putting stuff together? Yeah. So I would love to, you know, not giving too much of the book away, but kind of, I don’t mind the

Matt Xavier: whole book is about giving it away. Yeah. So, so that’s the, let’s, let’s dig into

Kyle Buller: it. Like how do you approach, uh, music when it comes to psychedelics?

Matt Xavier: Wow. Um, so the best way that I’ve been kind of [00:12:00] explaining it to everybody is music is medicine. Mm-hmm. And I know that others have said that before, and I give credit to them because it’s so true. You know, music has such a strong impact on us. Most of the time. Psychedelics is something we do every once in a while.

Um, music is a, um, is a medicine that we’re constantly using. You know, uh, tonight you may choose something before you go out that really fits the mood to get you ready to go out there into the world. Or you may have a tough experience and need to come back, um, and, and really relax. So you’re gonna select something that’s gonna be medicinal for you.

So I think understanding that music is medicine and consuming your music as medicine and understanding its qualities and traits, and then consuming the medicines that you’re working with and understanding those qualities and traits, and then being able to align those two while also bringing in the client needs presentation and then aligning all of that understanding.

To provide the best soundtrack, to be supportive, to be the co [00:13:00] co-therapist. Mm-hmm. But to also bring to the surface the material that the client would like to express, but they’re, you know, having difficulty doing. And the music is just such a powerful component because, you know, it amplifies psychedelics as you may be aware of.

And the psychedelics amplify the music. And so they both go hand in hand. So I think we do need to really hold music in high regard for its impact that it can have on a psychedelic experience and not just take it for granted as a secondary Yeah. But instead really put it forward and just, um, understand it deeply.

As deeply as we understand psychedelics.

Kyle Buller: How do you dug into any of the music and psychedelic theory, like kind of. I always, my dyslexia always switches up his, his names. Yeah. Uh, Kendall? No, Mendel. Oh, Mendel. Yeah, I know stuff. I always say Kendall Malin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right.

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I know Mendel stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. His, um, his work with, um, what is it again? Wave Paths. Yeah. His work, work with Wave Paths was always really impressive. You know, it’s, um. It’s academic science, uh, applied to [00:14:00] music and, uh, psychedelic therapy, and I’ve always been impressed by it. It’s a, it’s an amazing technology that he’s created.

Um, I don’t particularly use it. I, I find that, um, music is really difficult to, I ran a record label if I could pay somebody to create music, you know, um, the beautiful music that’s made by accident. I would, um, you know, it’d be, you know, awarded something for that. And so I think that that’s the, the reason why I don’t, um, particularly use that.

However, I do see its benefit. Mm-hmm. And, um, I have, uh, tested it out and I think that it’s a, it’s a solid product and it definitely has a future. And I know he’s working hard at that. And, um. Yeah. So yeah, I, I support what he’s up to in, in certain ways.

Kyle Buller: I used it in the early years for my ketamine practice, and I really appreciated just, yeah, having that tool available.

Matt Xavier: Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, and maybe this actually probably gets into the question of like. You know, music and the different medicines. Mm-hmm. At that time, I think they only had ketamine as an option. Yeah. When I [00:15:00] started to stop using it, like when I started closing my practice down and focus more on vital, yeah. I think they introduced psilocybin and breathwork as medicine.

Mm-hmm. Um, that you could select there. But something that I noticed and coming from the breathwork world mm-hmm. You know, we use a lot of like really rhythmic driving dynamic music. I felt like there was too much space in that, and that might’ve been actually great for ketamine. Like maybe we needed those tones.

But it just felt like the dynamic aspects of music just weren’t completely there. But it was really awesome just to not have to sit there constantly thinking about creating a playlist and you could change the mood. So like if you did want to respond a little bit differently, you had that option to To do that.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. It has that adaptation, which what he’s doing is what I call psychedelic soundtracking. Mm-hmm. So his program does live adaptation based on the, what the client experiences. I think that, um, the psychedelic guide and the psychedelic dj, which is what this is written about, is the tuning fork. Mm. And so, you know, I think it’s, [00:16:00] um, I, I prefer for that to, uh, to be the case where the guide understands that they’re a tuning fork and that they are.

Um, aware during the session they’re paying attention to how they feel and how the client feels and that they can adjust and make that happen in time. And then So you’re doing

Kyle Buller: real time mixing?

Matt Xavier: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it keeps me engaged in the session as well. I mean, not to put it down, but I mean certain, you know, I was told at the very beginning, listen, you might be bored in some of these sessions.

Mm-hmm. There might be clients that might lay there for hours and do nothing. What are you gonna do with your time? And I’ve learned sitting techniques, um, to stay grounded and to meditate along with the client in those cases. But, uh, by being able to attune and stay attuned to the music because of the impact it’s having, I’m even more involved with the session.

So I’m even, you know, staying right in the pocket with the client, adjusting the volume, which has such a significant impact on the setting. And then being able to make decisions in real time. I have multiple options available on screen, and so I’m [00:17:00] able to switch at different points. I use a four turntable system.

Cool. And so I’m able to just make a last second decision based on how I feel on what I’m seeing happening in the moment.

Kyle Buller: So you’re actually using like a dj?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, I’m using the Allen and Heath zone. K two to control tractor native instruments. Tractor four. And so that gives me a four deck option so that then I can play musical chess while I am connected to the client.

I have one ear on what’s going on in the headphones. Yeah. And then I have my other ear paying attention on what the client is actually doing. And then from that I’m able to make those, um, last second decisions to then either continue the session, you know, or the experience that’s going on, or to then change that theme and that soundtrack at that time.

Yeah,

Kyle Buller: that’s powerful. And that definitely takes a skill. ’cause I think you really need to understand music and you have to understand all the tracks that you’re playing. Yes. But I remember during some of the breathwork sessions that I was part of, um, my teacher does a lot of live mixing. Yeah. And sometimes I would take my eye shade up and he is sitting up there and somebody actually like created a [00:18:00] t-shirt for him saying, Gerrick dj, but I like take my eye shades.

And he’s sitting in front of like everything and. I’m like, he’s controlling the spaceship. Yeah. You know, like he is kind of like influencing that with the music. Yeah. And just like how powerful that is. But that does take a, a skill.

Matt Xavier: It is a skill. And I do write about this in the book multiple times. Um, do not try to do what I’m doing.

And I think that that needs, even though I put it in a book, um, I try to tell people to take what you want, leave the rest. Um, don’t be overwhelmed by what you read. Uh, I try to break it down as simply as possible. But it takes time to do the live adaptation. Mm-hmm. I think it first starts with understanding the therapeutic qualities of the music.

Mm-hmm. Of the medicine. Um, definitely getting trained in some form of, um, counseling modality. That is an absolute must for anybody who steps into any type of psychedelic work. Um, even if it’s just shamanic work. Mm-hmm. Understand that. And then even if you’re working with Western folks, is learn a Western [00:19:00] modality.

Um, get that stuff down, get your playlist. Down, do that therapeutic music curation, take that, uh, screening plan, the screening form or the treatment plan, see what the client needs are, develop the list or the record box as best as you can. Just like DJs do, before we go out to clubs, we throw options in the box.

We think we know what’s gonna go on, right? But be open for those changes. And then when you get in the moment, even if you slowly start to do some live adaptation, you do that psychedelic soundtracking even a little bit. Every once in a while, you just change that one track. If you’re using Spotify, you just move that one track up because you look and you go, oh, that track’s gonna be a little too strong.

And so maybe you move that down, move that up. Now you’ve altered the session and you’re doing that by sharing that, um, collective consciousness with the client. The client is contributing whether you can fully sense that or not. And so when you’re able to make though even slight changes. Um, you’re really allowing the client to, um, be involved in that experience.[00:20:00]

As for the DJing component, there is a whole technical part of this where I make recommendations for programs for speakers, Bluetooth systems, things like that. Um, people get really

Kyle Buller: caught up on that stuff. They do. You know, it is pretty tough, but I have

Matt Xavier: simple, I, I’ve really dumbed it down to novice level, intermediate advanced, so that people can really step into this and start to at least experiment with sound in the room in a different way.

Yeah.

Kyle Buller: When you were DJing, like would you go in with like a framework or would you really listen to the crowd?

Matt Xavier: Mm-hmm. Um,

Kyle Buller: and like yeah. How does that convert to like your psychedelic work?

Matt Xavier: I think it’s a mix. Mix, yeah. Yeah. I think that it’s, um, preparing in a sense by understanding the music that I’m doing.

Mm-hmm. Knowing what the venue is, the crowd is, and what the recommendations are for that. But then leaving myself like I do withal therapy is like we don’t show up with an agenda. Yeah, right. You know how that works. If you show up at that agenda, this is what I’m gonna do. I just read this in the book, you know, and then you sit down and then the client’s going in this direction and you’re trying to [00:21:00] pull them that way, which doesn’t meet them where they’re at.

And so I think music’s the same way, and that’s even with the dance floor, you know? I get it together. My wife and I always laugh. She’s like, well, you know, I’m working on my tracks for the set, and then I get there and I don’t even play most of it. Yeah, yeah, right. I ended up playing exactly what was needed and I felt was needed in the moment, and that is exactly how the sessions work for me.

But that might be different for a novice level. So I think it’s better to sit down, create those arcs and I, I speak about the stages in the book. Mm-hmm. Understand how the stages feel and look and then match the tracks to it. And once you have that laid out, sit through your own protocol. Mm-hmm. Um, whether you alter your consciousness or not, uh, you know, I’ll take like one hit of cannabis, sit down, sit through it, and go.

Oh, that all worked except that one track. Yeah. Right. And so now I know I can take that out, put something in. Once I sit through that, then I know what I’m about to administer and then sit down and do that. And leave yourself open for options if you’re, you know, feeling confident enough in the time to make them.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. I want [00:22:00] to really kind of break down some of this stuff. Yeah. But I first want to ask, ’cause you kept bringing it up, like the therapeutic qualities of the music and the medicine. Mm-hmm. Um, and. What are the therapeutic qualities of the music of medicine, say for ketamine versus psilocybin? Right. And like, how are you thinking about that?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, emotional resonance is a huge one. Um, knowing what each track, uh, makes you feel is really important because that’s going to resonate if even 50% for how the client’s likely feeling from that piece of music. Um, that’s really important. I, I listen out for timber, which is like the stretchiness of the song, um, elasticity.

Um, the spatial qualities, I like visuals. I’m very synesthetic, so when I listen to music, either sober or on a substance, I see things inside my mind. I hear things, I think of things. I feel things. And so I explore all that and I, and I get that down. My wife and I will talk about that and I’ll say, this is making me think of this memory from childhood.

And so I’ll remember that [00:23:00] it triggered that in me, and she’ll say, that’s interesting. That does that for me. Where I’m like, well, what emotion is. That, that’s causing that. And so I tend to notice, um, for pro audio protocol, one that comes with the book, I lean heavily with, um, sublimation and I’m using a lot of major corded material because, um, that’s kind of a sad but beautiful experience.

It eases clients into their subc. Um, provides them with the support to be able to release and understanding what that feels like for ourselves gives us the empathy to have with the clients. So,

Kyle Buller: yeah. And like, would you use different music for ketamine versus psilocybin? Oh yeah. Or are you using

Matt Xavier: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Um, you know, I recently worked with a client who did an MDMA journey and wanted to do psilocybin, then opted out. And while I was working with that client, I realized for MDMA that um. I always find music to be very front and center for MDMA, but um, not as front and center as it is for psilocybin mushrooms.

And [00:24:00] so that was interesting to see that MDMA for that client was, um, very, the music was very secondary and I was, um, reminded about that. It’s not the case for everybody, but, um, I would definitely make different decisions for working with MDMA. There’s um, hard opening pieces. There’s a certain vibe that comes with music, um, an energetic level because it’s an amphetamine, and so I would make, uh, decisions that align more with that.

With psilocybin, I’m so aware of the. The stages that onset and what I call the hike Yeah. Is so mellow and chill as it’s coming on. So I’d like to ease them in with particular pieces of music that are more expansive and soft. Mm-hmm. And then at that hour mark, when we stop for the bathroom break, um, you know, check in for a booster.

If the client chooses a booster, they take that. And then at that point. Um, the medicine is continuing to increase, so you wanna match that. Mm-hmm. And then once you go up for 90 minutes, you reach that top and that’s the summit. When you reach that summit, there’s an [00:25:00] expansiveness, that total peak energy.

And so again, we pull the energy back, use more of an expansive kind of, uh, music for imagination. And then as that breaks in, the strength comes down, we go into that de the descent stage, and that’s more of a homecoming. So there is a. A nostalgic kind of, um, sublimation that matches really nicely after they’ve been through that ascension and that peak work that, um, goes with that for.

Ketamine, you know, I haven’t really been working with that in such a long time. I had a big history with Ketamine a long time ago, so I’ve definitely, um, stayed away from it. Yeah. But, um, you know, it’s a, it’s an anesthetic, but it’s a fascinating one. And, um, I’m still checking in with a lot of you guys about what, uh, what the stages are like.

It’s so short acting. Yeah. So for me, I’m thinking like 45 minutes. Wow. That’s not a lot of time. Um, my regular DJ gigs are 90 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So when, you know, a 30 minute or 45 minute, anything doesn’t give, you know, any time to develop it. However, ketamine moves very [00:26:00] fast. So I’m fascinated to learn from you guys about that.

I think that’s where

Kyle Buller: like the wave paths is nice because it does, I don’t know when I was doing it and also offering it to clients, it’s like. It was just that spaciousness and it felt like you could deepen it with like the certain tones and like kind of go in without like necessarily needing this kind of arc that you’re talking about.

Oh, interesting. And it felt like, you know. The, the 10 to 12 minutes, you know, they have ketamine in their mouth. It’s waiting to come on. Maybe I’m doing a meditation, I’m guiding them through something. Okay, great. Or doing some drumming and then laying down, and then that stuff would open up and you could select different themes.

Mm-hmm. Like, I forget what all themes were. It’s been a while since I used the software, but, um, and so I, I would select that theme and so it would have different tones. Mm-hmm. It was nice. It felt a little bit more spacious, and you’re right, because it is like a little bit shorter. Sure. Um, that, yeah. Maybe it’s like interesting to think about how would that go, but mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, I didn’t, you know, it’s interesting I didn’t play [00:27:00] much with, um, like actual curated playlists. I usually just. Used that one. Yeah. Um, and I seem to really enjoy it.

Matt Xavier: Right.

Kyle Buller: Um,

Matt Xavier: I mean, if it works, it works. It works. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Once you figure out a medicine protocol that works, you don’t need to really mess with it too much.

It does. Its magic. Yeah. Yeah. Same with the music. Once you figure out something that works for you and your practice and for the tribe that’s seeking you out and entrusting you with the most profound experience of their life, if you know that that’s what works for you, that’s great, but as long as you leave yourself open for changes.

Then you’re really involving the client as well, and you’re not just doing a cookie cutter for everything.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yep. So how are you breaking up, uh, music? So, I, I hear you, you’re talking about this analogy of a hike. Mm-hmm. The summit, the descent. And so when you’re listening to music mm-hmm. And I think this is practical and this is what we also tell, like, listen to as much music as possible.

Matt Xavier: As much as you, as much, I imagine

Kyle Buller: that you’re probably breaking things up into different categories. Listening to it. And so how are you breaking up music when you’re listening to it so you can [00:28:00] start to categorize it and figure out where it goes?

Matt Xavier: That’s a great one. Um, so this, for this particular work, I do think understanding the stages of whatever medicine you’re using.

Sit through it if you can. You know, I know it’s, there are some researchers that have never even tried psychedelics and that’s fine. You know, they’re working with it in a different way. But I do think practitioners benefit from trying the medicine first. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I notice clients also feel a sense of trust if they, you know, practitioner has sat through it in some capacity.

So I do recommend at least trying something once. Feeling what those stages are like and then, um, taking that understanding, coming back to the music, and then sitting down like my wife and I do as I’m driving along and I’ll say, where does this go?

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: And she’ll go, oh, um. This is like an ascension track, you know, the, the ascent stage or what we call the climb.

You know, she’s like, it, it sounds like climbing. And I’m like, great. So we’ll know, you know, I have a playlist, um, in there. I use Bandcamp primarily. Cool. Which we can talk [00:29:00] about why, but then I’ll, you know, put stuff in there and, um, and so I’ll have it sectioned off into the stages. Um, I also section things off based on emotion, energy levels, uh, flavor, you know, I have a, a trippy folder for instance, which is full of great stuff.

You know, and so I, you know, I’ll drag things in there so that I can grab them more quickly. Um, and yeah, that’s, that’s how I do it for psychedelic therapy is primarily lay out the stages.

Kyle Buller: Cool.

Matt Xavier: Um, but yeah, in general, what are your

Kyle Buller: stages like, uh, for those that might not know what we’re talking about?

Mm-hmm. Like I feel like I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. But like, people are like, what stages are you talking about? Okay. Yeah.

Matt Xavier: That’s good. Um, yeah, for the stages, well, there, I’m gonna just focus on the four primary stages. Mm-hmm. And so that’s from when you consume the medicine. Uh, from that point, you’ve got basically about an hour, which is the onset.

That means the medicine’s coming on slowly. It’s a first effects. It’s a gentle time. It’s a meditative time. I do at least a 10 or 15 minute, um, [00:30:00] meditation, you know, bowls, bowl music, things like that, just to ease them in, get them out of their head, get them into their body, and then ease them into that experience and get to that hour mark where we take a little bit of a pause.

And kind of, um, take a break for, you know, bathroom and things. And then the second stage from that, after they consume a booster or not, the medicine begins to increase in strength. And so at that point you’re looking at a 90 minute ascent for mushrooms all the way up to the top. So I call it the climb or also the ascension, right?

So you get up to the top and then that’s the summit or the peak. And that for me, I’ve learned is about a 30 minute. Experience could be 30, 45 minutes where they’re up at the very top of the mountain, the vista, they’re enjoying the views and so, you know, again. Thinking about what kind of music would you wanna listen to if you were at the top of a mountain after you just climbed for hours, right?

And then as you’re coming down, you’re gonna want some energy to return, but you’re gonna want something that’s like, that was a really incredible hike. Now we’re bringing things home for a closure. So again, it’s the, [00:31:00] uh, it’s the hike or the onset. It’s the, as the, um, the climb or the ascend. There is the summit or the peak, and then there’s the dissension or the return.

That’s how I kind of describe them in the book.

Kyle Buller: Cool, cool. Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Xavier: And again, that’s strength for the medicine. Yeah. How it works. And then just pairing that with particular pieces of, and you said

Kyle Buller: you also kind of categorize it from emotional tone too. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have multiple lists there?

Do you have it like the hike, the summit? Yeah. And then you have like think section offer

Matt Xavier: emotional. Yeah. And I just know it. Yeah. Right. That’s the other thing that you just said is like, you have to consume this. This is the part that I really do speak about in this, and I hope people take this. Take this away from the book is, um, love music so much.

Yeah. You have to want to be listening to it all the time. And you know it, that’s, I have to stop listening to music to give my ears a break. And so, you know, I, I genuinely have to slow down and, um, you have to fall in love with music and, and play it everywhere you [00:32:00] can and understand it. And then break it off into its section so you can understand how to use it.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. ’cause you’re mentioning this. Quote that Pierre Bouchard. Do you know Pierre?

Matt Xavier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s a wonderful human. Yeah, he is. He’s in, in Denver. He’s Boulder. Boulder, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. He learned this from a mentor. I’m gonna butcher it. It’s somewhere on our website, uh, an article that he wrote. But it’s like, you know, does the music feel beautiful when you listen to it or do you feel beautiful in the presence of the music?

Oh, um, and Nice. I try to like embody that when I listen to music. Yeah. I’m like. Yeah. Yes. You know, is that having that type of impact? Yes. Um, and yeah, really encourage everybody, you know, if you’re interested in like putting playlists together and getting started, like just put on Spotify or wherever you listen.

And just listen to a lot of music.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. Listen to a lot of music. And you know, one thing I feel called to do is to tell everybody as well, and I have a chapter on this in the book, is buy your music.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. So band camp.

Matt Xavier: So here’s my thinking is that, um, if we [00:33:00] want music to be around and we don’t want to be listening to AI produced music in the next few years, which they’re already doing on Spotify,

Kyle Buller: we probably don’t even know.

Matt Xavier: Um, and most people don’t. Yeah. That they’re listening to AI produced music so that Spotify can make even more money. And they already give fractions of a fractions of a fraction of a fraction of a penny for per listen to an artist. So you’re talking about thousands of listens to even make a dollar, you know, that is not gonna feed the artist.

That we need to make human music that resonates for humans. And so I think it’s absolutely essential that if you’re using these someone’s music in a psychedelic session to provide the most profound experience for another person’s life, then you should at minimum find that artist. Let them know you’re using their music so they can feel the joy with you.

Mm-hmm. But then give them something. Go to band camp, buy the track, put it in a collection. Even if you’re gonna play it off, Spotify, buy it. Give them the dollar, the dollar 50. If you’re gonna go and use it in a session and charge thousands of [00:34:00] dollars, go and give the money to. To the musician, support them so that we can actually have these musicians around to make this music that we’re using, this medicine that we’re using.

It’s absolutely essential. So I do have a whole section on that and I speak to that. I don’t wanna put down Spotify. I know it’s easy, it’s great

Kyle Buller: for discovery. It’s fantastic for

Matt Xavier: discovery. Absolutely. That’s what I do. I,

Kyle Buller: I discover on Spotify or YouTube, wherever. Yeah, buy it on Bandcamp. But also, you know, I don’t know if you get into the whole thing about like.

Using flack files. Like lossless files? Yes. Versus just streaming on Spotify. I go into that, you know, you’re like streaming, what if it goes out? Mm-hmm. You know, and like I use a program called Mix with two three Xs on it. Yeah, absolutely. I know that. So it’s like I download it. Mm-hmm. Pay and, you know, a lot of like, uh, artists on band camp, sometimes it’s just donation based.

Yes. Right. So it’s like, you know, there’s maybe not a set price for the album. Yeah. Maybe you just donate whatever you can donate. And I, I a hundred percent agree with you if

Matt Xavier: you can’t afford their music. I promise you, if you tell them what’s happening, they’ll say they, that is worth currency. They will [00:35:00] just be, so, I just had a conversation with Meerman from Greece.

He said, Matt, this is what I live for, is to hear you’re using my music in this capacity. I buy all his music anyway, but to he, even more than the money, he knew his music was being used in this way and that was such a beautiful thing for him to say. And then as you’re, you’re talking about that is that Yeah.

Mix is a great program. Um, my wife uses DJ Pro. I use Tractor, so it’s, um, it’s good thing there’s so much out there. There’s so much out there. But, um, I speak to all that. There’s a whole technical portion. I think using wave files is important. A IF files because it creates a fuller experience. Yeah. Um, but you know, when you’re doing streaming, I have a whole portion in there to talk about streaming, how to use the associated DJ mix that comes with this.

Um, there’s a whole manual that’s involved. So the DJ mix, by the way that, um, created, that inspired the book is available on a strangely isolated place, and it’s a four hour DJ mix protocol that I developed over hundreds of sessions, and that brings the clients through the whole experience. Um, there’s a [00:36:00] QR code in the back with a manual on how to use it, how to stream it, how to download it, and um, use it in sessions.

And you can use it as a reference with the book as well. Yeah. And so it’s, uh, got a multiple use to it.

Kyle Buller: Two questions that are popping in my head. Yeah, sure. Um, ’cause the whole thing about like using Spotify versus mix got me thinking, sure, I hate Spotify. Maybe I just haven’t figured it out. You can cross fade.

Mm-hmm. But when you wanna skip a track, you hit next. It doesn’t cross fade. No it doesn’t. And it just goes to the next track. So it got me thinking like. What’s your take on silence in a playlist?

Matt Xavier: Oh, I have a whole section on silence. Nice. Yeah. It’s the silence in between the notes that makes the music.

Yeah. Um, I think that, uh, having tracks be able to fully end sometimes is really great. Mm-hmm. And then in other cases, um, there’s something beautiful about even just having a small 15 second or 32nd transition. Mm-hmm. ’cause it keeps it continuous. And like many clients will say is, I didn’t know when the music started or when it ended.

And I think the transitions in the DJ mixing makes that [00:37:00] possible. Um, there’s some effects throws if you get advanced enough that you can do to kind of create washes and effects, which are really nice. And then another thing that really, really helps. And I wanna stress this for people is learn harmonic, mixing.

Go to mix in key.com. Um, download some of your tracks and run it through there. Or use their new app, which listens to what you’re listening to on your computer.

Kyle Buller: And that just describes what key it’s in, what key it’s

Matt Xavier: in. And then you can organize your tracks by key and then you can actually sustain emotional experiences.

You can create beautiful mixes based on the keys, the root keys, the thirds, the fifths. And by doing that, you keep a beautiful, um, journey. You, you can just help extend an emotional release that’s going on, or you can, um, make a switch and change to something without making it so abrupt, right? And it really helps with musical storytelling.

So it’s a very good thing again. Um, mixed in key.com and then in this, um, it’s in the advanced section of the book. It’s called Harmonic Mixing, and there’s a whole chart you can follow. It’s [00:38:00] very simple. Cool. It takes music theory and it makes it simple for everybody, so, yeah.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. And what do you think about Word.

And lyrics music? Oh yeah, that’s a good question. Um, there’s debate. I mean, in the breath work world, we, we are always no words. Yeah. ’cause it really pulls people out. So

Matt Xavier: I, I, I do follow in the footsteps of the people who’ve done the research before me. And, um, I do agree with them because when I did stray early on, um, I did have clients who were courageous enough to go there.

There was a vocal that just kind of threw me off. I think it’s like if you’re using a vocal that you just can’t make out what’s being said. And there are so many vocals now where I listen and I don’t even know what. Right. It’s in English. Yeah, but I wouldn’t even know. Or it’s made up or it’s just made up.

It’s gibberish. Um, I think in those cases, as long as they can’t understand it. That’s fine. But, um, primarily create a collection that doesn’t have that. If you’re gonna use something, use it in a language that they won’t understand. But as I was just being interviewed, I was told that he, you know, he was sitting with somebody and, um, they played [00:39:00] Portuguese music.

Mm. And she thought he wasn’t Portuguese, but he understood it and it threw him off because the language was saying something that she didn’t even understand. And so be careful about what you’re using with vocals. Um, if you’re gonna use it, definitely get consent beforehand, um, and use it sparingly. I, but you know, I am open to the very occasional time where.

You know, psychedelic soundtracking that adaptation calls for it. Mm-hmm. And the consent is there. Then at that point you can kind of slip it in. Or if a client asks and you think it’s appropriate and they say, I need this to be played, then you can have some huge releases from a, from a powerful track, even if it has vocals.

Do you

Kyle Buller: allow people to bring their own music or like make suggestions on like what they wanna listen to? Or do you feel like you’re like, I feel like we need to be maybe a little kind of. Objective here and like not have you input your own like story in here. And we’re gonna create a soundtrack where you’re not gonna know, so you don’t have that [00:40:00] memory attached to that song or, perfect.

Matt Xavier: You said it all. Okay, cool. Yeah, that was perfect. Um, the way I simplify it is I say if you’ve sat in an ayahuasca circle, do they come up to you and ask you what music you want to hear?

Kyle Buller: Mm,

Matt Xavier: they do not. At least the ones I’ve been to, they’re not walking around the room going, well, what do you want to hear?

What do you want to hear? If I walk up and say, can you play this track? You know, that would not happen. Um, it’s about trusting that they know their music, like they know their medicine. And stepping back and surrendering is all part of this process. And you know, if you’re experiencing a piece of music that’s challenging, then it’s likely triggering something that needs to be worked on.

So I think it is better to just sit back, enjoy the ride, and trust that your guide has done the work to understand the music that they’re going to administer during the session. Um, so yeah, I think that it’s good to be open though to the client’s, um, you know, needs for that. I’ve worked with a lot of big musicians, pianists who are like.

You know, I’d prefer for a couple [00:41:00] piano pieces. You know, can you play this? I’ve had people give me notes from tracks that are really powerful, so I have to figure out where they fit in. Mm-hmm. And I’ve done those things. I’ve had people submit playlists from Spotify. I go through them, pluck a couple of tracks out that can work.

But primarily I like to try to just pre present something that they haven’t felt before, experienced before. Because that triggers different avenues in the brain. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Um. Maybe a, a little bit more of a technical question. Sure. Um, with each track, is there a time limit that you don’t want to go beyond?

Mm. So like, you know, not selecting a track that’s like 10 minutes long.

Matt Xavier: That’s a great question because I was just talking to Trisha, Tricia, Eastman, Eastman. I just met her right before I came over here. Oh, yes. And Tricia, um, Tricia was talking about, um, she said, yeah, you, you can’t. She was talking to, uh, to I think Joseph or something, and she had said, uh, uh, what did she say?

She said, you [00:42:00] can’t just play three minute tracks, you know? Yeah. And it’s so funny you bring that up, that that just happened because it’s actually for me too short of tracks. Right. Or are the issue. Yeah. Um, because it, it’s changing the theme too quickly. Mm-hmm. Now you can do that if you’re doing harmonic mixing because you’re continuing the keys.

And so you can extend a two minute track multiple times, but um, I prefer things to be longer form and it’s good to keep long form tracks in your collection. Yeah. And so I have a bunch of stuff from Pearl Eternal, that’s another project of him. And um, his stuff is 30 minute pieces. Oh wow. Yeah. And he’ll

Kyle Buller: use that in some of your sessions.

Matt Xavier: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The best part for the summit phase, which is about two and a half hours in the best ones, are those long form tracks. 30 minute tracks such Makes sense. Such just play. Yeah. And um, give space. They don’t have as much movement, they have more expansiveness. And so I think using tracks like that,

Kyle Buller: yeah.

Just remember having like some of those longer tracks in places and be like. [00:43:00] How long did that go on for? Yeah, like it felt like an eternity. Like can you change it? You know? It’s like,

Matt Xavier: yeah, I

Kyle Buller: know. Sometimes it could be maddening for some folks, but Yeah,

Matt Xavier: but that’s why if you’re using a 30 minute piece, understand it, make sure it doesn’t have a ton of changes because a lot of those tracks, you know, could like classical music over 30 minutes changes Multiple times.

Multiple times, yeah. But with long form, something that’s

Kyle Buller: like repetitive.

Matt Xavier: Exactly. Long form a. Especially things like Pearl. Look up Pearl, look up Eternal. His other project, he’s got, um, some amazing, uh, Ludwick. Simis is his name, and he’s got so many long form tracks that are really psychedelic, have beautiful emotionality and play long form.

And those are really good. So that if a client is feeling, um. You know, really overwhelmed. If you really need to drop what you’re doing and tend to an experience, move to a long form track, let that carry the session. And I have a bunch of those tracks that really help ease things. So if a client’s in a strong ego death and they’re, um, then they’re needing a lot of attention and support, then I’ll just [00:44:00] switch to long form.

Mm-hmm. And then just, uh, give full support and attention to the client until they’re stabilized in that, and then move back over to doing that psychedelic soundtracking again. As you’re going. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Thinking about like emotional tone, how the client’s responding. Music, somebody’s having a really difficult time, they’re in the middle of their peak.

Do you take a music track that’s a little bit softer to play that. Or do you kind of take this theory of like, they’re in this and let’s amplify it a little bit

Matt Xavier: more? Yeah. Wow. Um, my gosh. To do what? The second part of that is you need to know your client.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: You 100% need to have a very strong rapport with your client to be able to push that boundary.

I know that there’s a celebration in the community. I’m all about safety. Um, I know that we celebrate ego death. The articles do, it makes for good copy. Yeah. Um, but unfortunately it misleads clients to believe that that’s what makes for essential healing. Mm-hmm. And they come in wanting that big experience.

Uh, [00:45:00] so I think if, you know, you let the moment decide. Uh, you can see whether the client can handle it. You know, in Gestalt we trust that the client has the capacity to, um, to handle a lot more than we think they can. So I lean into that trust and I trust the medicine as well. Um, but if a client’s struggling, if they have limited experience, I don’t think pushing them beyond that is going to, um, be advantageous to what they’re doing.

So I’ll switch to something that’s calmer, and again, that’s the importance of being able to attune and be involved. Yeah. Is to not push clients beyond their limit, but instead to, um, support them in the experience. ’cause there’ll be future journeys where you can push those boundaries a little further.

Right?

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I’m seeing that we’re probably getting at time here. Sure. And I could just keep going. Yeah, sure. Whatever you need. I love this. Just love this topic. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe more personal question here. Mm-hmm. Who are some of your favorite artists? Like, what do you like to listen to? Wow.

Matt Xavier: Okay.

So first to touch on that, um. The traditional book and index will tell you about all topics in the book. I didn’t do that. [00:46:00] This book index has all the artists that are featured within the paragraphs, all the recommendations, the ones that wound up on the protocols, that’s all in the pages. So, um, right off the bat, I will say that I use a lot of music from Awakened Souls, which is, um, Cynthia and James.

Bernard, they make fantastic music that is, um, so beautifully produced. Um, I love inquiry. Uh, Lacey gave me a wonderful review of the book. I’ve used her music a bunch, um, for Ascent music. I love Helios. Uh, his music is fantastic, synchro. Um, his music’s amazing for, it’s got that energy, that sublimation in it.

Um, Chica, which is an old rave, uh, a rave producer, he makes beautiful expansive tracks, especially his older material. Um, I really enjoy, uh, Joel Mo. Um, he’s from Sweden. He has a project called Dam on, uh, a strangely isolated place, and so that has some really wonderful energy. It’s useful in the ascension.

Um, who else do I use? Of [00:47:00] course, the king. John Hopkins. Mm-hmm. I mean, he is just unbelievable. I have, um, him mentioned in the book multiple times, I use his, uh, track immunity closes all of my first protocols. Every client that, um, I’ve worked with has had that as the final track on the four, the end of the fourth hour.

But all of his other work, he understands, um, the sonic soundscape. He understands, um, psychedelics. His music just translates so well. And then Pearl and, uh, eternal, um, slow Meadows music is great for the come down that final stage. Um, a really great homecoming. And, um, what was the last one? Endless melancholy.

Mm. Um, his music is just fantastic for this work. It just triggers so many emotions. And music for remembering is, is such a beautiful, um, experience to create for clients.

Kyle Buller: I don’t think I’ve heard of most of these people. Yeah. So I’m excited to dig, I’m deep into dig in as well. So I guess that brings up another question.

Like what’s your thought on using like, a lot of these, [00:48:00] like, I don’t know, they might be more popular, but I’m just gonna use the term independent artist. Mm-hmm. Please. Um, versus like say a bigger artist name. Um, and people might recognize, so like, like Brian Eno, Brian Eno, Seeger Ross, Lisa Gerard. Like, some of these folks are like,

Matt Xavier: oh, I, I use Lisa’s work in the book.

I love Lisa. And on, uh, protocol too. Yeah, yeah. From Whale Rider. I used a couple of tracks from, uh, from, from that Fantastic music. What do I think about it? Well, I mean, psychedelics are sizzling. So you gotta pick tracks that Sizzle. Sizzle. Yeah. They have to have a sizzle. Yeah. You know, I don’t like things that are a little bit too sigh, muy, and stripped down.

Yeah. You know, it has to have it, it has to have that thing. And I know it’s subjective and everybody thinks what that is is different. Yeah. But um, that’s why I think it’s good to try out with medicine and ask yourself, is this triggering the emotions, the memories, the visuals that I would like. That I think my client would like.

Um, but I think there’s space for it all, you know? Yeah. Music for airports, it works. ’cause it works, right? [00:49:00] Yeah. Um, apex Twins, uh, and, uh, what is it? The am ambient volume, I think. Yeah. Three or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of those tracks work really well because they work, right? So there’s nothing wrong with using them if they would.

Kyle Buller: I, yeah. And I, I think I, I do it more from like one’s association with that, right? So like. I don’t know. I just, I know I shouldn’t use this track all the time, but I love, like part of Lisa Gerard’s, like some of the stuff in the gladiator. Oh yeah, yeah. And like that works really well for breath work for like that homecoming.

Absolutely. And like people are like, man, I really love that gladiator track.

Matt Xavier: Yeah. But you know what I use in, um, in, in protocol two. I use, uh, Han Zimmer’s work from, um, interstellar. And I use it to go all the way down because I use all minor chords on that one. And so I go all the way down and at the very bottom I use that one piece from, from the film where there’s tons of space and then you build and it gets that crescendo at the end and us.

And [00:50:00] then from that point, I use that to then launch back up. Yeah. And um, and so it’s a tool and Hans understands all of that. But he has

Kyle Buller: some really great tracks too. He does.

Matt Xavier: He does. Yeah. And I’ve used, um, a track from The Martian. Yeah. You know, that cinematic flavor and the rise and fall that comes along with that, um, matches the medicine experience and use it, it can be used really well and the ascension stage, you know, things like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I, I don’t think it’s a problem, you know, just, of course I say this as kindly as possible. Try to stay away from the cheese. Yeah. But, um, that’s subjective. You know, I’ve got my techno buddies who are like, eh, you’re using too many major chords. You know, so everybody has, you know, a lot of different, uh, opinions about that.

Kyle Buller: I think that’s what makes music so tricky, right? ’cause it is such a subjective experience.

Matt Xavier: But there’s some things that match. Yeah, yeah. You know, there are keys that primarily when you play it, if I ask you, you’re gonna say, it makes me feel love. Whereas other ones make you feel afraid. Um, but then the variances on that will differ from person to person.

[00:51:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: So I know you just named a lot of artists that I think you use in this stuff. Are there, what, what other type of music do you like to listen to?

Matt Xavier: That’s great. You know, well, you know what changed my life was Pink Floyd. Mm. Um, when I first smoked weed, I got brought to a, uh, I think it was 16 and a half, and I got brought to a.

A, um, a planetarium and I sat down and I looked up and I said, is this music? And my buddy Chris Corto is like, oh my God, this is, this is music. And I said, I couldn’t even believe it. And so I got so deep into classic, um, psychedelic rock before I moved into electronic. And then what do I do to cleanse my palate?

Um. I really love Kings of convenience. Um, their music is, uh, super folky and really nice. Nick Drake, um, just into folk music and stuff. That feels good. Uh, so yeah, I listened to those things from time to time. Um, I grew up around hip hop. I mentioned all that in the book. So of course I love Tropical.

Actually, last night we were listening to Midnight Marauders by Tropical [00:52:00] Quest Oh, sweet. At the state capitol. And then they were blowing off fireworks. And we’re sitting in there and just totally having a blast. And I hadn’t listened to that album in ages, and my wife and I were just having a blast listening to it.

So I, you know, I vary from time to times, but I admit I am totally addicted to, um, electronic ambient, yeah, yeah. Techno exploration. And I’m constantly working with it, so I, I want to consume it as much as I can with breaks in between.

Kyle Buller: Who are some of like your favorite hip hop artists?

Matt Xavier: Oh, for sure. I grew up around like, I’m gonna go way back.

So I was given, uh, mix tapes by Special Ed, EPMD and this was at summer camp or family owned a summer camp up in upstate New York. And, um, some of the inner city kids would just, um, slip me these tapes and I would listen to, uh, very early Beastie Boys Nice. Or things like that. But then, uh, later on I went through the tribe called Quest phase, uh, the de la soul phase.

Um, you know, eventually I think I. You know, slick Rick and all those things are great. Eric B and Raki. So I’m more of a classic oriented, cool hip hop, um, [00:53:00] hip hop lover. But, uh, you know, eventually graduated into psychedelic rock and dove into obvious, obviously, led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix Cream, um, pink Floyd.

Uh. Anything like the doors were, you know, always so big. Beatles were really big in my family, so Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was, I was introduced through those realms, but definitely made me love music as much as I do. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah,

Kyle Buller: I am starting to get back into like my early two thousands hip hop fades again.

Yeah, right. I kind of put that, who isn’t? Yeah. And it’s just like, I’m like, oh man, I’ve been listening to this music in so long. But it’s

Matt Xavier: so good. I think everybody’s coming back to it because the current rhythms are really, um, really edgy. Yeah. And they don’t flow as much. And so when we hear those flows, like last night I was completely bugging out listening.

To a tribe called Quest. Yeah. And I was just listening to the inflection of his voice and the rhythms and the musicality of it. And so I really miss that in hip hop and I’m, I’m hoping that that comes back. Um, ’cause it was very psychedelic. Yeah. We, we smoked a little [00:54:00] weed and dropped in and it was just fantastic then.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s such a good time. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Um, any, so I’m sure people listening, they are either probably creating playlists or thinking about creating playlists and introducing music. What’s like somebody’s feeling like really just like stuck and confused. Like, where the hell do I start? How do I get started here?

Besides like, you know, digging into the book and the literature. Oh, sure.

Matt Xavier: Um, yeah, so in here there’s a section called Therapeutic music Collecting. And so what you wanna do is go to, um. Start at Spotify. Make it easy. You know, there are playlists created by a bunch of artists that are in the book. Um, the people that have already kind of skimmed through that and created lists that you can start from, um, start there, go on Bandcamp, you know, and, and actually hunt around and get music because there’s music on there that isn’t mm-hmm.

Elsewhere. And start by just listening to your music and finding your instrumental music and seeing which instru instrumental music you’ve been driven to. And what actually triggers something in you and then start reading up [00:55:00] on, you know, good psychedelic therapy, music. I put a bunch of, um, resources in there about, you know, places you can go, magazines you can read, uh, podcasts, you can listen to, blogs, you can read.

Um, you could just go through those and actually start to skim through and learn about the artists. Sign up for some of their email lists. They’re gonna send you weekly or monthly emails that will kind of curate some of those selections for you. Go through and pull those tracks out that really stick out and then start to separate them away.

But don’t be afraid.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: Do not be afraid of music. You know, it is, it, its so wonderful. Um, be in love with it. Mm. And, uh, that, that’s where I think it starts is really turning on music and remembering how much you love it and what it triggers in you. And that drive and knowing how powerful it is gonna be for you and your client.

Let that be something that guides you. And it’s so easy.

Kyle Buller: Yeah.

Matt Xavier: Listening to music, you know, just, if it’s Spotify, throw it on and skim and go, no, wait that, yeah, put that in a playlist. [00:56:00] Start by creating four stages. In there. And then every track you’re listening to and those you do it, and those four stages,

Kyle Buller: like you would categorize ’em as like climb, summit, that’s it.

Matt Xavier: Climb summit, descent de, and then while you’re listening, don’t forget to just. Just go, oh, that’s right. Let me add that there. Yeah. And you will not regret it because later on you’re gonna have 30 tracks in each one of those, and now you can start to pull and create lists. Yeah. So fall in love with it and remember that it’s fun.

It’s not work to listen to music.

Kyle Buller: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe also listen to things that might scare you a bit, very much. Not saying scary music, but you know, I’ve listened new stuff. It’s like music outside my comfort zone. Yes. You know, I’ve listened to like some world music. I’m like, do I really like this? And I listen to it.

I’m like, actually this is gonna work really well. Mm-hmm. You know? And it’s like, yeah, just. You know, push your edge there.

Matt Xavier: Be open for change. Be open. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that’s what psychedelics help us do, right? Is to kind of break down the boundaries between us and what we think we can do. And so as that happens, then open yourself up to sound and let the sound then break down those boundaries further and open you up to [00:57:00] new possibilities.

And just let that to, you know, continue to expand over time. Yeah.

Kyle Buller: Matt, this has been super fun. I feel like we can keep going. Um, where can people find your book and find your work?

Matt Xavier: Sure. So the book is available on Amazon. Um, it’s also available through all stores. Um, you can get it in paperback, hardcover, and, uh, Kindle.

You can find that there. The, um, audio protocol, the first one is available on a strangely isolated place. And so, um, that feature got posted last week with a full interview and everything. Um, that’s also found on SoundCloud, so you can find it at through the isolated mix series. Protocol two is gonna be released on, uh, the Deep Breakfast podcast series, which is on SoundCloud, and that is an ambient electronic exploration.

Cool. And, um, and you’ll find tons of other amazing mixes from incredible producers on there. And so that will be July 17th. Um, that will be available. And then you can go to my website and I have, uh, music recommendations and things on there. And I’m starting to add more resource resources to the new website that we just [00:58:00] launched.

And so, um, yeah, you can just find me through integrated psychedelics.com. I’m also on Instagram and you know, just reach out through those methods. Uh. Yeah, I’m down to help and eventually, by the way, I will create a training program. Sweet. And, you know, um, I’ll get there. But this is soaking up so much attention That’s Yeah.

Yeah. That, uh, everyone’s like, you need do a training program one step at a time. I’m like, oh man.

Kyle Buller: Well, I mean, you have the outline. I do have the whole outline. Just putting the content then together in a way. But

Matt Xavier: for sure, I mean, pick up the book. It’s an easy read. I did not write it, um, to be complex. I wrote it in language that I could understand, and so you, you, you won’t get lost on it, and I think it’s a good starting point.

Um, check out the mix too. The mix will give you an idea of how transitions and mixes sound, what the stages sound like, and use it out on, you know, try it out on your. Or with a client, see how it works. And then you can take, you know, the playlist that’s associated with it and you can start to alter it on your own and make your own mixes

Kyle Buller: and stuff.

Sweet. Amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you again, Matt. Absolutely. It’s been super fun. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. I’ve been really looking

Matt Xavier: forward to, to sitting with you guys. I mean, psychedelics today [00:59:00] has been on the forefront for, for ages and you guys are really amazing. So thank you for doing the work that you do as well.

Thank you, man. Yeah, absolutely man.

Kyle Buller: That was.