Kyle and Joe – The Cost of Spiritual Emergence: Psychedelics, Spirituality and Capitalism


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In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Kyle and Joe dig into and create conversation over an email received about the cost of psychedelics, the facets of capitalism and about feeling isolated after a psychedelic experience.

3 Key Points:

  1. Capitalism in psychedelics is a complex topic and includes factors such as the schooling system, the medical system, monopoly, trade, and other facets that go into the cost of psychedelics.
  2. There are other forms of therapy that don’t have to involve psychedelics or lots of money.
  3. Feeling isolated after an experience is sometimes our own blockage, by refusing to create community because a person hasn’t had the same experience as us. Psychedelics aren’t always needed for a psychedelic experience.

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Show Notes

Email concern: Some psychedelic experiences seem segregated by a price bracket.
Ketamine Therapy – believed it would help with their depression, but ended up spending a thousand dollars every two weeks.

Joe – curious that ketamine lozenges may be a cheaper option that could help.
Kyle – although the drug itself may be cheap, you’re not just paying for the lozenges, you’re paying for a therapist or a psychiatrist.
Kyle – in America, healing is a privilege. We work hard to pay for health insurance, or even if we are insured through work or family, it gets hard to pay for because of the premiums.
“I would rather pay for taking care of myself, than going out and partying with friends.”
Healing may have to be a choice sadly, you may have to ask yourself “do I want this or do I need this?”
Joe – One treatment of ketamine is beneficial for a short-term intervention in an urgent state
One session of ketamine therapy helps the user understand the situation clearer and can reduce the thoughts of suicide
Kyle – “some of my greatest healing experiences were done through my own work, with myself or with friends”

“How do you feel about the resurgence of spirituality and psychedelics and it’s capitalism?”
Joe – Going from the states to Peru to do ayahuasca to reach spiritualism isn’t the only means of spirituality. There are so many other options than capitalist outlets to find spiritual development.
Kyle – “I want to offer a lot of help, and do free workshops, but need money to survive.”
Joe – Jokingly “You’re three months behind on your rent Terrence!”


A person doesn’t need hundreds of trips to be complete and happy, Aldous Huxley says you need three to four strong trips throughout your life.
“How do we protect the planet, and how do we maintain freedom?”

To talk about Capitalism and psychedelics, we are assuming that something needs to mediate the trade or exchange for therapy. Let’s continue to educate ourselves so that we don’t blame capitalism on the fact that therapy has a cost. It’s a hard conversation to have, it’s a complex topic.
Joe – pro-socialized medicine
$30,000 for a first responder to take an overdose death away
$20-$30 for a Narcan
Let’s prevent and heal more. Capitalism does incentivize doctors and healers.
Kyle – “how can we use these as tools and not toys?”
Medicalization of psychedelics may have a potential tie to capitalism
The difference between doing it legally for an extremely high price, versus paying the market price for a gram of mushrooms (illegally) and doing the work (therapy) on your own.
Joe – Monopoly=capitalism
Kyle – the Education system
Student loan debt can be a half a million dollars to be a doctor or therapist
That debt plays an effect on how much those doctors or therapists charge

“How do you deal with isolationism that certain psychedelic experiences bring forward?”
Kyle – “this has been a huge issue in my life, this resonates with me. After having my near-death experience, I didn’t know to talk to people, how to function in the world. A near-death experience is one of the most psychedelic things. To slowly slip away and ‘die’, and come back to this place and not feel like this is where I belong, how do I exist here? It can lead to isolation. It can be extremely heavy.”
“We’re all experiencing this reality through our own lens, so we have to meet people where they are.”
The reason these experiences can make us feel lonely is that of the lack of community. Kyle believes in not just constantly going into these experiences, but more about the integration of the experiences.
Joe – Tim Leary says “Find the others”. But there are a lot of psychedelic people out there who don’t take psychedelics that can be a part of your ‘community’.
Kyle – it makes sense to feel like you need to connect with someone who has done psychedelics in order for them to understand, but we can connect with other people who may not have had psychedelic experiences.
The psychedelic experience isn’t the only way. We can also experience spiritualism and healing without psychedelics, too.
Kyle – Experience in Jamaica, the Rastas talking about home and family, “if the oil splashes up and burns me, my family isn’t here to help me, but you’re here to help me, and you can help me.”
The people around me are family, they don’t always need to have had experienced the same things as me in order to help me
Joe – group strengthens self
Robert Anton Wilson’s habit – he would order magazine subscriptions and most subscriptions aligned with his interests, and the other half were of subscriptions way outside of his interests, so he wouldn’t develop a bias.


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