MDMA – Confessions of an Underground MDMA Therapist

Psychedelic Therapy with MDMA

“Can I use my mind as a tool to help me open a closed heart?”

We talked to a 79-year-old underground MDMA psychotherapist. Remaining anonymous, due to the illegality of this work, he shares some of his greatest insights from his many years of experience helping people with psychedelic therapy. Succeeding a twenty-year hiatus from MDMA therapy, he continues to provide this healing psychedelic work to individuals today. 

The following is an excerpt from our interview. Check out the full audio interview here.

Edited by: Alyssa Gursky

MDMA – Confessions of an Underground Therapist

Psychedelics Today: How did you get exposed to the literature and science around psychedelics in those early days?

Anonymous: It wasn’t the literature. In 1958, when I was 20 years old, someone got a hold of some acid. I was living in Boston and a friend of mine said,

“Would you like to try this new drug?”

I was naïve and I didn’t know. The only drug I’d ever consumed was alcohol. I said, “It is habit-forming?” They said, “No.” I said, “Alright. I’ll try it.”

I told my friend I was going to try it that day. The next day, when I met him on the street, he asks, “How was it?” I said, “Considerably more interesting than the sum total of my life up until this point.”

Psychedelics Today: What has surprised you the most about working with people at MDMA? Do you see rapid transformations? Is it kind of a catalyst for a longer set of transformations or transformational process? How do you think about it?

Anonymous: In order to answer that, I have to emphasize that people are in different stages of understanding and growth in their own level of self-knowledge. Also, people have set a lot of defenses against change in the conscious and unconscious mind.

I especially like looking at relationships; relationship to one’s self, relationship to nature and something beyond one’s self and relationship to one’s friends, to one’s lover, or one’s past lovers, and to the people that push your buttons. Looking at the difference between the way that the relationship feels normally and the way you feel towards the person when your heart is more open because of the medicine is the greatest benefit, in my eyes. Looking at those relationships, people sometimes get glimpses of what it could feel like if their hearts were open instead of closed. Sometimes, they even realize that they do not have any good reason to keep it closed.

Psychedelics Today: It’s like one of its better effects is just kind of a reorientation towards daily life. No need to be closed off, no need to be fearful.

Anonymous:  Of course. That doesn’t mean they don’t go back to being have been closed off and fearful, but when you go back to the old place because you’ve tasted the new place, the old place is never quite the same.

Psychedelics Today: I am am curious if you could share any stories of people’s healing, anonymized, of course.

Anonymous: One comes to mind, a man who was brought up in a minority community out West and was molested by a man who was not part of the community. The man told him at the end, “You better not tell anyone about this or else … ” and he threatened him with something pretty terrible. This young boy did tell. He told his people in his community. They found the man and beat him until he was at the ends of his life. My client told me that he felt really guilty for what had happened, even though it’s not rational to feel guilty. He felt really guilty and the guilt spilled over until many areas of his life and was the sort of central pillar of his psychology, this feeling of being bad, unworthy of love as a result of that.

When he took the medicine, he told me about his situation. I just asked him, “Pretend that it is your son who gets molested and is told that he mustn’t tell and then, he told anyway; how would you feel towards him?” He had a moment’s pause and said, “I will just love him.” Then, he made the connection himself and there was a visible, immediate change that came over his facial expression and looked like a different person. He dropped the majority of his guilt. It stayed with him because I saw him the next day and he still looked much more relaxed, whole, and happy. He said that there was a fundamental shift in him as a result that couldn’t just end when the effects of the medicine wore off.

Relating to my own growth, I found that emotional maturity and self exploration are key portions of my journey. I found that every single relational difficulty that I found in myself, if I looked at it it deep enough, brought me to the same lesson- that I wasn’t being kind to myself. When I’m feeling good about myself, I just don’t have relational difficulties. Of course, most of us have a ways to go before we can feel good about ourselves. Another thing, I realized, is the hurt doesn’t come from rejection, it comes from my taking offense at rejection. If I learn not to take offense, I’ll get hurt a lot less. That would just be an example of a much bigger principle.

Psychedelics Today:  I really appreciate your focus on the relationship aspect of healing work. My teacher and I were discussing  psychedelic use in traditional cultures. To the Native Americans, Peyote usage is all about relationship; a relationship to the medicine, a relationship to the universe. It doesn’t seem like that’s always the case.

When we were asking another teacher about like, “How would you pitch breathwork to somebody that’s interested?” His first response was, “Are you curious? Are you curious about your relationship to the world?” I think that’s kind of like the cornerstone of self-discovery. It’s about learning about your relationship to yourself, learning about your relationship to others, learning about your relationship  to the universe and how you interact with it.

Anonymous: One more side on the matter is that I look at the spiritual literature of the world. I noticed that there’s very little believable and useful literature about intimate partnerships between two equal people in the spiritual literature. Most spiritual literature just says, “Be loving. Be kind. Be forgiving.” That’s very nice, but they don’t talk about how do you do that when your heart is closed?

I think the deepest question when one is in relationship is, am I safe? Is it safe for me to love? Do I need to close my heart in order to stay safe? I believe the answer to that question is always no, but we often think it’s yes.

The MDMA affected my work by the nature of the changes it brought about in me. We saw things about opening… I really saw that the central issue for most people is very simply put, the need to open the closed heart. I look at everything in the world that I found distasteful; war and violence, starvation and hunger, economic inequality, environmental disaster, the stuff that goes on in the homes, and every single thing seemed like it wouldn’t take place if they were loved.

It seemed like the same factor that caused disharmony in the home is what caused war among nations, you know, like “as above, so below.” It felt like there’s this one change needed in the human consciousness which could be summarized by the opening of the closed heart, and that became my biggest interest. Can I use my mind as a tool to help me open the closed heart?

Psychedelics Today:  Looking back at all these years of doing your own self-exploration and providing a space for people to do their own exploration and healing, is there a piece of advice that you have gathered and would like to pass on? You must have seen a lot and been through a lot. To us, you are this elder passing some serious wisdom on. I’m curious if you have any deep insights.

Anonymous: Boy! From what I’ve experienced, I can say that most of the time, people start from an assumption that the world is unsafe. In order to make it safe, they attempt to control people, events, and circumstances. If you start with “I’m not safe,” then the only thing I’ll ever arrive at is, “I’m still not safe.” We’re all looking for a feeling of deep, deep safety. I think safety is like love. The only safety worth anything  is unconditional safety. A safety that doesn’t depend on circumstances is the most valuable because circumstances are out of our control. I think that the piece of advice would be — consider the possibility that the world is safe. Start with that and see where that takes you.

Psychedelics Today:  Thank you for that. That’s a really, really great piece of insight.

If you enjoyed this excerpt of the interview, be sure to check out the full podcast: Confessions of an Underground MDMA Therapist

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Interview with Natalie Ginsberg: Global Psychedelic Policy and Advocacy

“Through my lens, so many problems in this world are driven by people acting from a reactionary place of fear and pain instead of from a place of compassion or love.” – Natalie Ginsberg

Joe and Kyle spoke with Natalie Ginsberg, Policy and Advocacy Manager at Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS). Natalie provides us with a summary on facets of the current state of global drug policy. She also discusses the role of racism and privilege in the psychedelic community in America. The following is an excerpt from our interview.  

Edited by: Alyssa Gursky

Natalie: This past year, the UN General Assembly met for the first time in 20 years to revisit international drug treaties. A special session was called on the world drug problem. There were a series of different meetings. Vienna hosts something called the, Commission on Narcotic Drugs, every year. First, there is a big gathering in Vienna where reformers, non-reformers, and people working both from civil society on drug policy come to meet with delegates from around the world and educate them.

They tried to move drug policy from a criminalization approach to a more public health and harm reduction kind of approach.That was also pretty inspiring, and it was definitely a bit frustrating in terms of progress.We would’ve liked the outcome document to reflect much more progressive drug policy stances, but they’re very influenced by countries like Russia and China, who are really not open to the harm reduction approaches at all.

Being there, you meet so many global representatives. For example, the so-called drug czar, but he doesn’t like that name. The National Drug Coordinator of Czech Republic, for example, is really supportive of psychedelic advocacy and was able to host a lot of more innovative, progressive events. The Colombian health minister gave a really powerful speech on the floor of the United Nations (UN), basically saying the drug war… using that Einstein quote, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.” It was really epic for the minister from Columbia to be saying that to the whole UN.


Overall, for me, what was so, so valuable was really this coming together of the international reform community. Now, I work super-closely with advocates from Afghanistan, Mexico, and Nigeria. We’re much more in the same loop of what’s going on and learning about how we’re doing work in different countries is important because the UN is a really slow body that is quite reactionary, and it’s really driven forward by individual countries’ progress. The more we can support individual countries moving forward, the better chance we have for them to kind of influence the UN later.

Joe: Are there any star countries that you noticed that are really doing stuff that might not be on the radar yet?

Natalie: Bolivia actually legalized coca leaves and has done some really important work around protecting cultural indigenous plant medicines, like promoting the traditional use of these substances.

As I mentioned, the Czech Republic is really, I’d say, the leader on all things psychedelic that are not traditional, indigenous use. I would also say that even though Portugal gets a lot of attention for decriminalizing drugs, they actually weren’t the first place to do that. The Czech Republic has been decriminalizing drugs longer than Portugal, as has Spain. Portugal received a great deal of attention because they did it in response to a big opiate crisis. There’s some incredible results to show how dramatically things have shifted, but other countries have kind of taken that stance for a while, so there isn’t as much of a shift. But, they do have really promising results from not having a crazy drug war.

Spain is also really cool because of their cannabis social clubs. I was lucky to spend a few weeks in Barcelona this fall. They have these incredible spaces that basically was like a mix between coffee shop, co-worker space, maybe a little bar worked in there — just like a community space where you can go and become a club member.


Also, keep an eye on Colombia. When Ismail and I, my colleague from the policy team, were at the UN, we spoke to the Colombian health minister about MDMA therapy. He said, “Yeah, that sounds really promising.” I’m optimistic about that. They’re kind of still in the process of reforming their drug policies, and though they haven’t made as dramatic of strides as the other countries, a lot of the ministers and people doing work in Colombia are a lot more conscious. They see all of the horrible impacts of the drug war on their country and want to improve it. I think they will continue to do this work and lead some reform in South America.

Then also of course Canada is leading the way in so many ways on the drug policy front. From legalizing cannabis to really strongly supporting harm-reduction measures in response to opiate crises. I think Canada is going to be the leader on drug policy reform, and probably on a lot of other policies as well.

Joe: What else is going on in your world? Are you projected a couple years out to be working on some other interesting projects, or what do you see happening?

Natalie: I can speak about something that’s really near to my heart. In context of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, we are working to develop a study that would be focused on racial trauma, or PTSD from racism. We are working on another focusing on PTSD in trans communities as well. I’m really interested in talking about how social injustice can manifest in an individual as PTSD. I think that’s going to be a really important conversation.

Anti-racist work within the psychedelic community is really important. A lot of people I know are these peace-loving, hippie types who have really beautiful ideals, but don’t necessarily know the details or the reality of certain situations. I’ve heard from so many amazing, well-intentioned people in this community, “I don’t see race. All people are the same.” I think the concept is beautiful and well-intentioned, but that’s also really ignoring the experience of people of color in this country.

Unfortunately, police officers do see race. Breaking that conversation open I think is immensely important. If we’re a community that really talks about healing and working in solidarity with other social justice movements, I think that is really essential. I have seen more and more progress on that front, but I just want to definitely flag that because I think we have a lot of room to improve in that space.

Joe: What does that look like to you? How could we heal a bit? I know the research itself is very white, really kind of bland, but in terms of diversity, how do we heal that? What do you see?

Natalie: Yes, the research is quite white, unfortunately. This study focusing on racial trauma, we’re working with Dr. Monica Williams in process, but she’s a leading researcher on PTSD from racism. Working with experts and therapists of color to do outreach to their own communities. We have to work with communities and not just go in and be like, “Why don’t you come into our space?” We have to be willing to meet people where they are and really listen, and hear what different communities need from us and how we can best work with them. I think really the best way, when you ask how can we heal, it’s really we as white, psychedelic enthusiasts need to do our own work  We need to do our own reading and need to start asking questions. And not questions just of people of color, and asking them to do this emotional labor for us, but maybe other white people who are doing this work who might be able to help support this process.

It’s a really long, difficult process that requires a lot of self-reflection, which is why I think there’s so much potential in our psychedelic community.We’re a community so focused on being conscious and self-reflection. All of these things that are essential to understanding racial consciousness, and the impact of racism on white people. There’s a lot of hugely harmful impacts of racism in white people, the way that sexism deeply harms men in patriarchy. I think it’s really important that we are doing some of our own work. That is a difficult process but a healing one, The more conscious we are of things, I believe that is really a way to move towards healing.

Returning war veterans are incredibly traumatized and don’t have adequate support, but yet compared to someone living in a poor, black neighborhood in Atlanta … There was a study that returning war veterans had way lower rates of PTSD than people living in this community. These people are also underdiagnosed, and don’t have the resources that even… It’s just interesting context because certainly, we dramatically need to improve our support for veterans as well, but even just stepping back and seeing that there’s so many people suffering from PTSD who have no access, or no even language to understand what they’re going through.

Kyle: Do you have any last-minute advice for students or anyone that is interested in getting involved with policy work? Because now, maybe, with this fear of the new administration taking over, we don’t really know what the climate is going to look like.

Natalie: In this political climate, it’s more important than ever to do work also outside of the so-called direct political system. Advocacy even means talking to your family or friends, creating a cultural space to support this political work is the most important thing we can do. This ties back into the conversation about the whiteness and privilege of the psychedelic space. I totally understand that there are such a span of people who are able to speak openly about this in certain contexts. You can be at risk for losing your job, your children, and certainly people of color are far higher risk for being arrested for drugs or things like that. I think that’s a really powerful part of recognizing being conscious of your privilege in this community — if you feel safe enough to speak in certain communities and speak out, that it’s super-important to do that and use that privilege to move the conversation forward. There’s so many ways for people to get involved. MAPS alone has a million volunteer opportunities, or we’ll help you host a global psychedelic dinner if you want help inviting people in your community, and having things to talk about. I encourage people also to just think of whatever they’re most passionate about and do that, and see how psychedelics can intersect with that, and how they can speak in their space.

Check out the full audio interview with Natalie Ginsberg here.

Transcribed by:

About Natalie Ginsberg

Natalie earned her Master’s in Social Work from Columbia University in 2014, and her Bachelor’s in History from Yale University in 2011. At Columbia, Natalie served as a Policy Fellow at the Drug Policy Alliance, where she helped legalize medical marijuana in her home state of New York, and worked to end New York’s racist marijuana arrests. Natalie has also worked as a court-mandated therapist for individuals arrested for prostitution and drug-related offenses, and as a middle school guidance counselor at an NYC public school. Natalie’s clinical work with trauma survivors spurred her interest in psychedelic-assisted therapy, which she believes can ease a wide variety of both mental and physical ailments by addressing the root cause of individuals’ difficulties, rather than their symptoms. Through her work at MAPS, Natalie advocates for research to provide evidence-based alternatives to both the war on drugs and the current mental health paradigm.

Interview with Brian Normand: Psymposia Magazine and How to Get Involved

Kyle and Joe chatted with Brian Normand, Co-Founder of Psymposia, about the development of Psymposia and the online magazine that they have launched. This is a small portion of the interview.

Brian: The Magazine is going deeper than what we would at events… The magazine is our tool online. It is for doing the work online and connecting with different groups, such as DanceSafe, who will have a column in the magazine. The magazine allows us to really reach out to people very far away. We have an article coming out, “What is Marijuana and Psychedelics Like in Hong Kong.” We have one coming out in Sweden. We have one coming out with a bunch of activists down in Mexico. So, it is really allowing us to reach out much further.

Also, something that we would really like do since we are thinking about this stuff [psychedelics] all the time — we find that when we are talking to other people and amongst ourselves, we are starting to think of new questions that are coming up… We are trying to look at these new questions, “What is regulation going to look like? What is legalization looking like in the United States? How does it differ between each state?” We are trying to tackle a lot of social concerns.

Over the last couple years, you are starting to see so many mainstream publications come out with psychedelics now. It is a daily basis now at this point. And you know they all start out with the same thing, “Ayahuasca, this Amazonian brew, it contains thing called DMT.” That is not our approach to things. We are trying to do a little bit beyond that. We are assuming that the people who are reading this are into this, they know those things, they know that MDMA is also known as ecstasy.

So, that is what we are trying to do. We are trying to progress certain conversations that we are interested in and think are important for people to talk about.

Kyle: That’s awesome. I think that’s what Joe and I are trying to do with this project as well – push pass some of those major headlines that might be repetitive if you are interested in this stuff or if you’re a student researching. It seems to come back to the same old thing. I always appreciated going to conferences and having these side conversations with people, they were always so rich and full of great ideas.

Brian: Absolutely. We want to cover conversations that we would actually find ourselves having when the speaker comes off the stage. You know, in the hallway or the back of the room. Those conversations, that’s what we want to talk about.

Kyle: I am on the website right now and I want to read this one headline. “A Narc Gives a Priest LSD,” The story begins, “He says ‘Ralph, have you ever done LSD?’ Of course, my dad’s speaking to a policeman, and it’s the 70’s, and my dad hadn’t done LSD.” That sounds like a really great story to read. How are you finding these stories? Are people just submitting them?

Brian: Yeah. I think that is one of the best stories we’ve had. That story is from our friend, Danji, who is in Montreal. I am not going to explain that story, but it is awesome.

For the stories, we are taking some of the stories that we have done live and transcribing them, including the video with them, but we are also taking submissions from people who have an interesting perspective on something. We recently just got a new psychedelics story editor who works with people on developing their stories, and we are going to come out with a series of stories who have been in the Hopkin’s studies. Mike is working on that. I read one of them, and it is a beautiful story.

If you have a cool story, you can send us an email at and we are happy to take a look at it. We also do the live events too. For the live events, we get stories and we schedule a handful of speakers. I’d say we schedule about two-thirds of the speakers and then we leave a one-third open to pitch a story to Lex. We like to keep that open because that can produce an element of going any direction. That is really good. We have got a lot of amazing stories that way as well.

We are happy to take a look at any of the submissions

Kyle: Where do you see the future of this magazine going?

Brian: I think it is going to be awesome. We are putting a lot of work into it. It’s like that first event we did. We didn’t know what we were doing and all of a sudden, we had a hundred people coming out. With the magazine, we just want to set the intention to make something really awesome that discusses these things (psychedelics) and talks about these things (psychedelics), networking with other people and groups. We have received a lot of submissions. We also have had a lot of people who want to edit and want to write for it. We want to come out with high quality articles, maybe stuff that has a little bit of a different angle on things and we are going to be launching a Patreon/crowdfunding campaign very soon.

We are also interested in other people who may be interested in funding the magazine and taking it to the next level. We see a lot of potential with it and we have been getting a lot of great support.

Kyle: There are a lot of people that may want to get into the field of psychedelics, especially as they are starting to become a little bit more mainstream with articles popping up all over the place. You guys have not taken the counseling or Ph.D route trying to do science with psychedelics.

Do you have any tips about how to get involved in the field?

Brian: We get asked this pretty often, “How can I be involved in something?” I don’t really have an answer for that. This field is much wider than just psychotherapy or just the clinical avenue. You can do million things. I think that’s what is the most interesting thing about the psychedelic field or being involved in psychoactive plants. It is very interdisciplinary. I think that’s why this field is so fascinating. It is made up of people all over the spectrum. There are therapists, artists, musicians, research organizations, drug policy people, cannabis people, there is the harm reduction people. I think whatever your interests is, if you believe in the work, then I think you can make it for yourself if you pursue your passion.

Check out the full interview with Brian Normand

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