Dena Justice – Using Neuro Linguistic Programming to Create Change in the Unconscious Mind

In this episode, Joe invites previous guest, Dena Justice back on the show to continue the conversation on Neuro Linguistic Programming and non-ordinary states of consciousness.

3 Key Points:

  1. 93% of what we do on a day to day basis, is unconscious. If we can figure out how to work with that 93%, then we can really do some important things.
  2. A lot of times we aren’t happy with our behavior, first we have to distinguish between cause and effect. With effect, you blame other people, but when you’re a cause in your life, you’re taking responsibility for what’s happening.
  3. Creating new habits is hard at the conscious level, because it requires conscious thought. NLP focuses on the unconscious.

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Show Notes

Last Episode

  • 93% of what we do on a day to day basis, is unconscious
    • If we can figure out how to work with that 93%, then we can really do some important things
    • Communicating with the unconscious mind is kind of how we communicate with ourselves
  • The previous episode was called Neuro Linguistic Programming and Non-ordinary states of consciousness
  • NLP is all about our nervous system and what is coming in with our 5 senses, then the linguistic part is all about how we communicate what is happening in the body
  • NLP basically creates all of our behavior
    • The more we are able to understand how our unconscious mind works, the better we are able to get the outcomes we actually want


  • A lot of times we aren’t happy with our behavior
  • First we have to distinguish between cause and effect
    • When you’re at effect, you blame other people, but when you’re a cause in your life, you’re taking responsibility for what’s happening
  • When we can help people be more at cause, they get those desired outcomes, and people start to get to where they want to go in life” – Dena

Perception is Projection

  • Whatever you’re believing that which is outside of yourself, it’s actually a reflection of you
  • Dena said that she won’t go to fitness classes simply because of the language they use
    • Altering your state through movement makes a person very vulnerable and the language can be very suggestive
  • What are we subjecting ourselves to everyday? When we sit down to watch TV or movies, we are in a trance-like state
  • Dena suggests being very careful to be aware of what we let in
  • Getting rid of barriers and obstacles to get where you want in life is the goal for NLP

Prepping the Unconscious Mind

  • Going to the gym is a habit so many people want to have and don’t
  • Creating new habits is hard at the conscious level, because it requires conscious thought
    • When we try to make decisions at the conscious level, it gets really difficult
  • All learnings and behaviors, happen at the unconscious level” – Dena
  • “How many times did you have to tie your shoes consciously, before you tied your shoes, unconsciously?” – Dena
  • Most people don’t have good language running in the background, and that is a big reason why people are stuck in poor behaviors

Prime Directives of the Unconscious Mind

  • We create gestalts of emotions and experiences
    • A gestalt looks like a pearl necklace, and they are all related to each other
    • All of our experiences of our emotions (ex. anger) all get hooked together like a necklace
    • It’s a way that our mind organizes the information
  • When we learn to re-frame intentionally, we can take it as a tool into non-ordinary states of consciousness


  • In psychedelic experiences, we are re-framing the conscious mind, we shake loose of our gestalts
    • We need to learn new tools in order to directly communicate with the unconscious mind” – Dena
  • When we can get to the ‘aha’ moment, we can create change more quickly
  • Limiting beliefs and negative emotions get in the way
    • Getting rid of limiting beliefs causes massive aligned action which leads to massive life change


  • Our unconscious mind loves following instructions
    • We tell the mind so many don’ts, ‘don’t cross the street, don’t walk on the grass, etc
    • We need to tell the mind exactly what to do
    • People are really clear about what they don’t want, but they aren’t always clear on what they do want
  • 7% of what we are saying are just words, the other 93% is is how we say it, our emotions, our infections, are body positions, etc
  • Joe mentions somatic techniques, but that only goes so far, NLP takes it home
  • We learn language, but we don’t learn to be effective communicators


  • Joe, Kyle and Dena are talking about doing a 5-day breathwork and NLP workshop in Sonoma, CA
    • Breathwork is such an amazing tool for non-ordinary state of consciousness
  • Until more news is released about the retreat/workshop, Dena invites listeners to take her course over at her website, Ecstatic Collective
  • Sign up at to be notified of the future workshop



About Dena Justice

As a master manifester, Dena has created a beautiful life for herself. She been financially responsible since age 15 including putting herself through college, two masters degrees and purchasing her own home in the San Francisco Bay Area. She has made over $1M in her life through a fulfilling career as a facilitator, educator, trainer, mentor and coach working with thousands of people across the country. She loved her career, yet hit a point where she felt empty. Near the top of her career ladder, she was a classic case of a high performer and leader hitting burnout. She chose a powerful pivot out of her J-O-B and into her own business. Now, she helps other high performers who have hit burnout and are scared to admit they’ve hit a plateau or a wall. She helps them get the eff out of their own way and move to the next level to increase their impact so they feel fulfilled and inspired again, as well as helping them create more wealth and the relationships they want in their lives. She helps people experience new levels of success, increase/improve focus and performance, abolish FOMO, evolve communication skills, develop transformational leadership skills, create amazing relationships, increase financial abundance and live life on their own terms.

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Thought Room Podcast – Spiritual Emergency: Near-Death Experience & the Psychedelic Renaissance with Kyle Buller

Kyle joins Hallie Rose of the Though Room Podcast to share his story/journey.

About the Thought Room Podcast

The Thought Room is a combination of edge-of-your-seat storytelling and groundbreaking interviews with celebrated thought-leaders from around the world.

Recorded remotely everywhere from hotel rooms in New York City, to a camper van in Maine; from the coastal forests of Costa Rica, to a picnic blanket amongst grapes in a vineyard in Sedona—host Hallie Rose captures rich, face-to-face interviews and intimate storytelling in a variety of eccentric locations.

Through a collection of captivating conversations in the fields of health, spirituality, and personal development, the Thought Room provides a rare glimpse inside of the rawest aspects of being human. We take a deep dive into examining the events that shape us, the stories we weave, how we label our traumas, reclaim our power, and to what degree our thoughts can shape who we are.

Topics Explored: 

> Kyle’s near death experience at 16 years old, how that has shaped his life since

> Existential questions of life, connecting with ourselves, the human experience

> Non-ordinary states of consciousness

> Intuition, cultivating a relationship with our inner intelligence, the intelligence of the body

> Kyle’s organization Psychedelics today and the motivation behind founding it

> Is DMT released during near-death experiences? Does DMT feel similar to dying?

> Is it possible to consciously change our internal states through the manipulation of our breathing?  Can simply changing our breath-pattern send us into altered states of consciousness?

> Science/research on the medicinal and ceremonial use of psychedelic substances

> The ceremonial and ritual use of psychedelic substances throughout history, how it’s shaped our culture

> Drug policy, marginalizing populations within society

> Understanding the power of psychedelic substances, developing frameworks for this understanding, reconnecting to our traditional roots

> Research: Johns Hopkins, UCLA – psilocybin near-death anxiety research; Maryland Psychiatric Institute – Bill Richards, Stan Groff; MAPS; MDMA in the Therapeutic contexts? FDA: Phase 3 clinical trials

> Do we fully understand the power of these substances? Do we have proper structures in place to support it?

> Self-care, harm-reduction, integration

> ‘Spiritual emergence’

> Showing up for your life’s work 

Kyle and Joe – Solidarity Fridays – Week One

In today’s Solidarity Friday’s episode with Kyle and Joe, they cover current events on COVID-19, social media narratives, a new world, psycho-pharma, psychedelic VICE articles, movies about acid and more.

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Show Notes


  • Joe and his girlfriend are recovering from being sick, potentially coronavirus (they weren’t allowed to be tested without being hospitalized)
    • Joe said he was really sick in a new and novel way
  • Kyle is located in New Jersey (currently around 19,000 cases, close to 250 deaths)
    • He has a weak immune system, so he is trying to be super careful by staying isolated (he hasn’t left the house in weeks besides to go on a walk outside)
  • Joe says this whole thing is really going to impact humanity and life on earth
    • The ecosystem of commerce is fragile and this is a strong way of showing it
  • Kyle says that Trump estimated 250,000 deaths in the US
  • Joe says we are going to get through this, and life will go on, but what will that look like?
  • How can the conscious show up as leaders?
  • When we are in a fear state, we don’t make rational decisions


  • Kyle says all of the psychedelic people that he is connected to on social media are posting so much on 5G right now
  • There are dual narratives, like people dying, but also a lot of info on conspiracies
    • What do we pay attention to, and what is really happening?
    • Joe said that he played in the conspiracy, occult area for a while, and he couldn’t find any solid ground
    • In times like this, the conspiracy media ramps up, because people are afraid, and that impairs cognition
  • There is a lot of media saying that COVID-19 is a biological weapon
  • There is a lot of unknowns, and how do we not panic?

Processing All of This

  • We were not evolved for this moment
    • Now, how do we evolve to handle this stuff?
    • How do we build resilience?
  • As ecosystems collapse, some organisms start to mingle with other organisms and then viruses like this can come up, and will pop up more in the future
  • We are in a spiritual emergence-y right now, we need to bring up our shadow and do the work
  • What can I actually do in my life right now? Instead of worrying about everything

A New World

  • 90% of products in the consumer economy right now are completely non-essential
    • We are on a finite planet with finite resources don’t mesh with infinite growth
  • Hopefully this is the emergency that we need to re-imagine the future
  • There is a role that the psychedelic community plays in this
    • The psychedelic culture is familiar with sitting with shadow, doing the inner work, and taking a creative approach at alternative systems and reimagining the future
  • Kyle says this feels psychedelic, having new ideas about what the future could look like, what we can offer the future
  • A lot of the things that we wish for are starting to unfold, in some sense, the collective has been wishing for the things that are happening
  • When we take substances, we are upgrading our operating system


  • MindMed (Mind Medicine) call themselves a leading neuro-pharma company for psychedelic inspired medicines
  • Right now they are working on a compound, essentially an iboga-like drug
  • There is a lot of suffering happening in the world, and whatever tools that can help with the suffering will do
  • There is a roller coaster of the psychedelic experience
    • If every experience was just rainbows and happiness, it would just devalue the human experience


Shadow Panel

  • Kyle is co-hosting a Shadow Panel with Ido Cohen and takes on a Jung approach to process the shadow
    • They host interviews with doctors and other speakers on the topic
    • They explore a lot of somatics in the shadow
  • It is a donation based course right now, potentially paid in the future

Final Thoughts

  • Joe says we are heavily impacted by COVID-19, a ton of breathwork events all had to be cancelled
    • But we have a ton of online courses and resources available, from integration books, to online guided therapist and clinician courses, to psychedelic online courses, coaching, and more
  • Joe said he had a fun conversation with a film producer (Malibu Road) on the acid scene in the 70’s
    • The film cant be streamed yet, but the trailer is out
    • About Kyle

      Kyle’s interest in exploring non-ordinary states of consciousness began when he was 16-years-old when he suffered a traumatic snowboarding accident. Waking up after having a near-death experience changed Kyle’s life. Since then, Kyle has earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology, where he studied the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork, and the roots/benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. Kyle has co-taught two college-level courses. One of the courses Kyle created as a capstone project, “Stanislav Grof’s Psychology of Extraordinary Experiences,” and the other one which he co-created, “The History of Psychedelics.”

      Kyle completed his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. Kyle’s clinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis. Kyle also facilitates Transpersonal Breathwork workshops.

      About Joe

      Joe studied philosophy in New Hampshire, where he earned his B.A.. After stumbling upon the work of Stanislav Grof during his undergraduate years, Joe began participating in Holotropic Breathwork workshops in Vermont in 2003. Joe helped facilitate Holotropic and Transpersonal Breathwork workshops while he spent his time in New England. He is now working in the software industry as well as hosting a few podcasts. Joe now coordinates Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork workshops, in Breckenridge, Colorado.

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